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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steff.

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Speaker 2: I never told your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: And welcome.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so we have to put this disclaimer out. We've

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Speaker 3: been talking about doing this specific episode for two years now,

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Speaker 3: I think, and it's with Joey, our fabulous contributor and

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Speaker 3: part of the show and friend of the show obviously

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Speaker 3: and co worker on all the things. We've been talking

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Speaker 3: about doing this episode for a minute, haven't we we have?

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, Hello.

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Speaker 1: That's they're just a part of the show, of course.

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Speaker 2: That's yeah, No, it's definitely. It's better. It hasn't been

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Speaker 2: two years. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: This is definitely something I felt like I'll do this

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Speaker 4: at some point.

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Speaker 3: I feel like me and you specifically talked about it

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Speaker 3: at the bar when I came to New York the

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Speaker 3: first time, and we were like.

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Speaker 1: We need to have this conversation.

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Speaker 2: So it's been a couple of years. Yes, No, it's

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Speaker 2: definitely at high Okay.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we're teasing this because we also thought that what

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Speaker 3: bet a way to end Pride Month but to have

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Speaker 3: a Q and A about the spectrum of gender and

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Speaker 3: what it means to be non binary, and I guess

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Speaker 3: before we even start this, I guess we need to

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Speaker 3: know why we're asking you, Joey, to talk about what

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Speaker 3: it means to be non binary.

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Speaker 4: No, for sure, I mean so I identify us on binary.

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Speaker 2: I think I've spoken about it a couple of times

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Speaker 2: on the show. Disclaimer upright, I'm going.

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Speaker 4: To talk a lot about my experience and all of that.

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Speaker 4: You know that being said, there's a lot of people

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Speaker 4: in the world, and everybody experiences, you know, gender in

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Speaker 4: a different way. It would be you wouldn't I mean,

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Speaker 4: I would hope that you wouldn't ask like some random

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Speaker 4: man or woman to explain what womanhood or manhood or

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Speaker 4: whatever means to them and assume that that is what

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Speaker 4: it means for the entire population.

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Speaker 2: So much like being non binary, and as I'm going to.

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Speaker 4: Get into too, I think like kind of the nature

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Speaker 4: of the concept of being non binary inherently sort of

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Speaker 4: makes it hard to define, because I have like a

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Speaker 4: section of my notes right now that literally just says,

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Speaker 4: this is an enomology lesson. But it's like the word

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Speaker 4: non binary literally means not binary. That means anything that

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Speaker 4: sort of exists outside of the binary the man, woman binary.

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Speaker 4: So again, I'm gonna be talking about my experience. That's

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Speaker 4: not necessarily going to be the case for every single

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Speaker 4: person that identifies as non binary people.

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Speaker 2: Also within the kind of.

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Speaker 4: Overall non binary umbrella, I think people don't realize how

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Speaker 4: broad of a term it really is too, Like it

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Speaker 4: encompasses a lot of different identities. So yeah, that's again

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Speaker 4: my disclaimer. If I say something and you're like, that's

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Speaker 4: not the case for me, then I love that. For you,

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Speaker 4: that's amazing, But I please don't come after me for

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Speaker 4: speaking my truth too.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is one of those things where

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Speaker 3: when you and I are talking about it because I

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Speaker 3: had to apologize and.

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Speaker 1: I did it again not two minutes ago, Like it's.

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Speaker 3: Such a newer concept for someone who is an ex millennial,

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Speaker 3: Like we have kind of a spectrum because I am

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Speaker 3: like in between the gen X and millennial and Annie's

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Speaker 3: a true millennial and you are our gen zer. So

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Speaker 3: there's so many like levels in this conversation because I

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Speaker 3: really I harp on the fact that I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 3: I have understood that I am aging and I no

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Speaker 3: longer am up to date on what is happening in general,

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Speaker 3: and that I love having these types of conversations about

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Speaker 3: the fact that things are now seen as a part

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Speaker 3: of a spectrum instead of being concretely this, this and this. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I think that's one of the beautiful moments where

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Speaker 3: you and I were talking because we had first, of course,

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Speaker 3: met online and we talked to each other through the webs,

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Speaker 3: but you and I got to sit and actually have

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Speaker 3: a conversation over a couple of delicious drinks in the

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Speaker 3: bustling city of New York during Halloween time.

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Speaker 1: So it was kind of nice too.

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Speaker 3: But like, you and I sat down when we were

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Speaker 3: talking about it, and I had to be up front

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Speaker 3: like this is so new to me. I still have

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Speaker 3: a hard time like transitioning into them because that's such

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Speaker 3: a like a third person conversation, you know, growing up

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Speaker 3: in the nineties and eighties. But like, but it makes

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Speaker 3: perfect sense. It's just about understanding that things change and

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Speaker 3: things it.

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Speaker 1: Should should have been a part of the spectrum.

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Speaker 3: So with that and knowing that this is your personal story,

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Speaker 3: this should be something that we are talking about on

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Speaker 3: a personal level, because that's what makes this conversation important.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And kind of like on that note too, something

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Speaker 4: like One of the points I sort of wanted to

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Speaker 4: talk about is the fact that yes, a lot of

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Speaker 4: I think people the terminology is new, like the word

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Speaker 4: not binary, right, that is new that I'm not denying.

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Speaker 4: I ended up writing something for Transitive dis Visibility, which

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Speaker 4: was back in March, and like posting on my Instagram, right,

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Speaker 4: I talked a little bit about this idea that you

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Speaker 4: hear a lot, I think from people that are a

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Speaker 4: bit older that they're like, Okay, well, this is like

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Speaker 4: a new idea.

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Speaker 2: The idea itself is not new. The word is new.

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Speaker 4: And part of what I think inspired me to like

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Speaker 4: want to talk about this is I'm working on this

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Speaker 4: other show.

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Speaker 2: Right now called Afterlives.

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Speaker 4: Season two is out now wherever you get your podcasts,

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Speaker 4: you should listen. But part of that show is I

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Speaker 4: spent a lot of time talking to queer elders and

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Speaker 4: you know, also like digging through a lot of queer

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Speaker 4: history archives. The show is about marsh P.

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Speaker 2: Johnson.

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Speaker 4: I probably should have said that at the top, but anyways,

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Speaker 4: that is again, so a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 4: history research and something that I kept coming across that

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Speaker 4: I thought was interesting was there were a couple of instances. Again,

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Speaker 4: it was kind of mixed because there were some you know,

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Speaker 4: I do think it's a misconception that all sort of

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Speaker 4: like people over a certain age or just like, oh,

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Speaker 4: this is confusing, I don't understand it.

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Speaker 2: Some people were got it right away.

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Speaker 4: A couple of people were clearly sort of struggling with

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Speaker 4: the concept of like pronouns or like being non binary

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Speaker 4: or taking a non binary look at gender.

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Speaker 2: But then I.

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Speaker 4: Would look back at the things that they were talking

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Speaker 4: about or like the work that they had done during

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Speaker 4: kind of their prime in the queer rights movement, and

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Speaker 4: there were these things like introgny and like gender fluidity

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Speaker 4: that like came up a lot, and kind of the

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Speaker 4: early like the way that drag I guess was viewed

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Speaker 4: in the seventies, and that again is sort of changed

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Speaker 4: over the years too, and a lot of these words

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Speaker 4: meant different things then than they do now. But Yeah,

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Speaker 4: something I kept coming across is I was like, clearly,

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Speaker 4: you understand the concept the word non binary is new

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Speaker 4: to you.

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Speaker 2: And this is where.

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Speaker 4: I'll be so honest, y'all, I please don't cancel me

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Speaker 4: for saying this.

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Speaker 2: I think we kind of up a little bit.

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Speaker 4: I think we managed to pick like the least sexy

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Speaker 4: word possible for something that is like objectively very cool

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Speaker 4: and sexy, because come.

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Speaker 2: On, like non binary, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: And I think again, I think the word non binary

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Speaker 4: like something that helps me sort of think about it

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Speaker 4: shoe or helps me like explain to people.

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Speaker 2: Is like think about it as like an adjective too,

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Speaker 2: like you're you're again, you're taking it's taking a.

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Speaker 4: Non binary look at gender, and it's saying that like

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Speaker 4: you're not fully a man, you're not really one whatever.

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Speaker 2: Most people exist within that gray area.

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Speaker 4: There was another like news broadcast from the eighties that

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Speaker 4: I remember listening to at one point too, where they

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Speaker 4: were talking about one of the early Pride parates and

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Speaker 4: they were like, and this was like a like a

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Speaker 4: may I think this is like ABC or something, and

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Speaker 4: they were like, you know, men, women and everybody in between,

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Speaker 4: and so I was like, Okay, clearly, like the people

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Speaker 4: understand that. And like, even growing up in you know,

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Speaker 4: the early two thousand, before i'd heard the word non binary,

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Speaker 4: I understood this idea of like, well, there's like a

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Speaker 4: gray area.

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Speaker 2: In between two.

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Speaker 4: There's people that don't really fully fit into one or

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Speaker 4: the other. And I think what's happening now is more

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Speaker 4: people are embracing that label who you maybe wouldn't expect you,

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Speaker 4: And I think that's part of where some of the

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Speaker 4: confusions coming in. I think we're also like solidifying some

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Speaker 4: of the language about like you know, pronouns and whatever. Also,

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Speaker 4: I do want to stay upfront, like I use they

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Speaker 4: them pronouns. Not every non binary person like strictly used

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Speaker 4: to say them pronouns. A lot of people would just

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Speaker 4: sort of be like, I'm fine with whatever. Pronouns A

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Speaker 4: lot of people use like they she, they he. Again,

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Speaker 4: everybody's got a different experience. But then I also know

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Speaker 4: people that are like, you know, used she they pronouns

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Speaker 4: or he they pronounce that probably wouldn't call themselves a

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Speaker 4: non binary. They just are like, well, you know, I'm

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Speaker 4: a woman for the most part, but.

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Speaker 2: Also gender is fake. And yeah, I'll power to you

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's amazing because yeah, we definitely just

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Speaker 3: recently had Withquel on the show and she was talking

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Speaker 3: about the mere fact that you know, when it especially

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Speaker 3: it comes to trans people, but all of this, they

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Speaker 3: they've always existed, they've always been here, they will always

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Speaker 3: be here no matter what happens, no matter what people

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Speaker 3: want to groan on and on and about and have

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Speaker 3: a lot of hypocrisy and bigotry.

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Speaker 1: But they've been here and they will always be here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right.

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Speaker 3: Growing up, I definitely heard androgynous quiet it. It was

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Speaker 3: never like fully realized to what that was. We knew

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Speaker 3: what that was, but to be a specific identity, like oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that makes sense, right, and then that's such a deep conversation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I might not like the word in Rodyna's particularly,

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Speaker 4: Like one of my best friends growing up was like

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Speaker 4: the first person ninety that came out of binary when

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Speaker 4: we were I want to say, like eighteen, But even

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Speaker 4: before that in high school, they were experimenting a lot

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Speaker 4: more with like gender expression, and they really latched on

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Speaker 4: the term androgyny, and we're like talking about how they

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Speaker 4: were verianto like Androgena's fashion and just androgynous presentation and

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Speaker 4: all that. So that was sort of my which I thought, again,

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Speaker 4: I thought was interesting because this was a word that

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Speaker 4: kept coming up in all of these these interviews and

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Speaker 4: these archives from like the seventies and eighties, so clearly

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Speaker 4: there was sort of like the foundation for that that

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Speaker 4: was the word that I heard growing up in like

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Speaker 4: I wanted this was like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and like,

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Speaker 4: so there is a through line there, and that ended

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Speaker 4: up turning into how I understood what the idea of

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Speaker 4: being a non binary was. And then kind of on

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Speaker 4: the note about like pronouns, something that I thought was

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Speaker 4: interesting was this idea. Obviously, the whole concept of like

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Speaker 4: asking people for their pronouns and doing you know, and

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Speaker 4: you're doing interactions, putting your pronouns.

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Speaker 2: On your email, all of that, that is a fairly

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Speaker 2: new thing.

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Speaker 4: However, the fluidity of how people used pronouns like that

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Speaker 4: is not a new thing either. I mean, something that

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Speaker 4: I learned from working on the show was back in

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Speaker 4: the day, like regardless of whether you identified as like

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Speaker 4: a trans woman or just a gener queer person or

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Speaker 4: like a gay man, a lot of people were using

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Speaker 4: she her pronouns for each other, for their friends. It

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Speaker 4: was kind of an inner community thing. And looking back

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Speaker 4: at that, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense again. It's

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Speaker 4: something that it's it's situational, it depends on.

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Speaker 2: It has always kind of been a fluid idea.

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Speaker 4: People have always used different pronouns and different situations. We

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Speaker 4: have now sort of put in this system of asking people.

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Speaker 2: And I get that.

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Speaker 4: You know again, also when that hits like a mainstream

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Speaker 4: sort of expectation, it can be seen differently.

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Speaker 2: But that also, I think it's not new.

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Speaker 4: It's just the language that we use around how we're

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Speaker 4: like asking people for these things.

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Speaker 2: That's new.

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Speaker 1: I think we also wanted to put it here.

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Speaker 3: I think it was funny you and I were talking

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Speaker 3: and I say, I was like, I'll be your nuna,

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Speaker 3: your uni, which is a Korean term for his older sister,

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Speaker 3: And then I started thinking about it, and you were like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think we really need to have this conversation because

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Speaker 3: I had to have an ABC with my mom and

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Speaker 3: it feels like.

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Speaker 2: Like, wait, are you saying that.

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Speaker 1: I'm like it, Oh, no, okay, all right.

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Speaker 2: I get it. We need it.

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Speaker 1: We need this talk. We need to have this talk.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I did not say that you were I

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Speaker 2: had conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you did, but I heard that's what I got.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, I'm pretty sure that yes, we

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Speaker 1: we definitely do have this need to have this conversation.

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Speaker 3: But as you were saying before, this is about your

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Speaker 3: personal journey and we're taking a little like deeper look

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Speaker 3: specifically with your experience. So can you kind of talk

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Speaker 3: to us and about and you and the listeners about

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Speaker 3: your journey specifically.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, time to talk about me. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: again I would say that I identify as my binary it. Honestly,

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Speaker 4: it kind of took me a little while to get

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Speaker 4: to that place. I don't think I would say, and again,

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Speaker 4: this is again my experience.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people have had very different experiences.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that it was like that I always

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Speaker 4: knew that I wasn't a woman or I wasn't a man.

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Speaker 4: I know plenty of people that that is kind of

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Speaker 4: their story. They're like I always sort of felt uncomfortable

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Speaker 4: being one.

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Speaker 2: Or the other. I didn't really feel like that growing up.

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Speaker 2: I personally, the.

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Speaker 4: Way that I think about my experience is like I

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Speaker 4: grew up as a girl. I was socialized as a girl.

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Speaker 4: That really really impacted the way that I go about

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Speaker 4: the world now. And it's not how identify anymore. But

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Speaker 4: I see that as like, yes, that is.

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Speaker 2: A part of me. Other people, again don't feel that way.

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Speaker 2: All power to them. Love that.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think like growing up, I always was like, yes,

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Speaker 4: I'm a girl, I'm a woman. I'm seeing that way

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Speaker 4: and treated that way by society. But also something that

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Speaker 4: I realized sort of what as I got older and

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Speaker 4: then reflecting back, was girlhood and womanhood.

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Speaker 2: It was always something.

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Speaker 4: That felt like a battle, like it always felt almost

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Speaker 4: kind of painful. And I think the way that I

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Speaker 4: thought about to myself was, Okay, we live in a

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Speaker 4: deeply patriarchal world. It is very hard to come of

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Speaker 4: age as a woman. I'm responding to that. I'm responding

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Speaker 4: to the fact that womanhood is like a very painful

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Speaker 4: experience and like very uncomfortable experience.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that's not the case.

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Speaker 4: Like obviously, you know, we did to live in a

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Speaker 4: very patriarchal world. There's a lot of things that I think,

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Speaker 4: especially you know, growing up and being like very hyper sexualized.

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Speaker 4: And you know, again this was like the early two

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Speaker 4: thousands twenty tens, like.

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Speaker 2: You turn on the.

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Speaker 4: TV every single I don't know, it's like the beauty

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Speaker 4: expectations of like the two thousands was a whole other thing. Uh,

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Speaker 4: But like for me, something I mean the biggest sort

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Speaker 4: of I think flag looking back that I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: it was like I remember having like panic attacks over

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Speaker 4: the idea of like having boobs. Like I was like,

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Speaker 4: I like, I don't know why anybody would want this.

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Speaker 4: This sounds terrible, like it ruins your life. And then

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Speaker 4: like talking to friends and being like, oh, you're not

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Speaker 4: having that experience, like you actually do want to like

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Speaker 4: experience puberty and like have all of these body changes,

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Speaker 4: like you don't just want to be sort of like

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Speaker 4: an androgynous slate for the.

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Speaker 2: Rest of your life. That's crazy.

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Speaker 4: I literally remember I'm pretty sure this was Twilight, but

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Speaker 4: I remember wanting to a.

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Speaker 2: Movie and I was like twelve. Yeah, I think it

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Speaker 2: was Twilight.

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Speaker 4: I want to twelve, And there was a joke about

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Speaker 4: like one of the characters being like, oh my god,

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Speaker 4: like my boobs are gonna look so good in this dress.

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Speaker 4: And I remember being like physically, like why would.

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Speaker 2: You want that? Like I was like that sounds terrible,

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Speaker 2: Like ah, like I just that's just gonna get you

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Speaker 2: like attention. That's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, I think it took me till I was

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Speaker 4: older to sort of realize like, oh, okay, that was not

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Speaker 4: like a universal experience you know, so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and then I think like.

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Speaker 4: The idea of like what it was to be not

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Speaker 4: in binary. I first sort of heard about that when

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Speaker 4: I was like at the end of high school starting college,

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Speaker 4: and at first I was sort of like, Okay, well

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Speaker 4: that's not me because the people that I knew that

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Speaker 4: were coming out of saw binary a lot. And I'm like,

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Speaker 4: we're like, I don't identify as one of the other.

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Speaker 4: I'm sort of like I want no gender. I don't

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Speaker 4: identify with one or the other. And I was like,

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Speaker 4: that's not necessarily my experience. So I think like when

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Speaker 4: I was like sixteen seventeen, I sort of interpreted like

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Speaker 4: what I was going through as I thought that it

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Speaker 4: was because I was gay, and I came out as

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Speaker 4: a lesbian when I was seventeen. I identified as lesbian

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Speaker 4: for like the end of my teen years before.

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Speaker 2: That, I identified as bisexual.

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Speaker 4: And but yeah, I think I like around when I

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Speaker 4: was seventeen, I started realizing that I was really uncomfortable

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Speaker 4: with the thought of like having sex with a man

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Speaker 4: or a man looking at me sexually in any kind

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Speaker 4: of way. I think I still was like attracted to men,

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Speaker 4: but it was like the idea of being of a

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Speaker 4: man like freaked me out. So I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: this is a sign that I'm gay. And then like

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Speaker 4: flash forwarding too when I was twenty, that was around

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Speaker 4: when I was really starting to explore my gender identity.

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Speaker 2: I cut my hair for.

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Speaker 4: The first time, I was going by different pronouns, I

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Speaker 4: changed my name, all of that. I was presenting a

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Speaker 4: lot more masculine, and I think that was again where

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Speaker 4: I sort of came back around and I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: I actually think I.

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Speaker 2: Am by I am attracted to men.

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Speaker 4: I just was really uncomfortable with the way that like

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Speaker 4: I was seen in a like heterosexual situation. Like the

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Speaker 4: problem literally was like it wasn't them, it was me.

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Speaker 4: Like it was like I was like, I don't love

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Speaker 4: what this means, the way that I'm seen in this situation.

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Speaker 4: And from what I've heard, like a lot of people

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Speaker 4: that are not just non binary, but like trans in general,

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Speaker 4: I think have had similar experiences where they'll identify as

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Speaker 4: like one or the other and then they'll start transitioning

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Speaker 4: and they'll like realize, you know, some of it is

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Speaker 4: just coming also from like personal just obviously this isn't everybody,

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Speaker 4: but I've a lot of people have.

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Speaker 2: Had similar experiences.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, going back to that kind of period of

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Speaker 4: time when I was like six ages like sixteen to

384
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Speaker 4: like nineteen, I knew I was queer. I think I

385
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Speaker 4: was uncomfortable with the gender binary. But again I was

386
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Speaker 4: sort of attributing it to this idea that like, oh well,

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Speaker 4: it's just like really hard to exist as a woman,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 2: I was at that point.

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Speaker 4: I'm very staunch feminist too, and so I would say,

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Speaker 4: like again, I was like, the issue is it's the

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Speaker 4: subjectification or blah blah blah whatever, It's.

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Speaker 2: All these things.

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Speaker 4: But like, ultimately, at the end of the day, I

395
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Speaker 4: think it was an era that was just like defined

396
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Speaker 4: by me being confused by like some of the things

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Speaker 4: that I thought weren't universal were not.

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Speaker 2: There was like one instance.

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Speaker 4: Where I remember like having a conversation with some friends

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Speaker 4: in college and somebody had like said something about like, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: like if you just woke up and you were like

402
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Speaker 4: in the body of a man, like how would you

403
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Speaker 4: And they all like had this visceral reaction where they're like,

404
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Speaker 4: oh my god, this would be terrible, and I was like.

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Speaker 2: I feel like that'd be kind of fun. Like I

406
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Speaker 2: was like, I don't.

407
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Speaker 4: I was like wait what Like I was like wait,

408
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Speaker 4: I was like surprised. I was like, oh, you guys

409
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Speaker 4: don't think about that. It's like, oh, that could be

410
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Speaker 4: like fun experience. I wish I could just go back

411
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,840
Speaker 4: and forth like that sort of thing, and you know,

412
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Speaker 4: and again going back to the whole everybody experiences gender differently.

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Speaker 4: I do also know cis gender women that are like no,

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Speaker 4: I would love that. That would be fun for like

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Speaker 4: a day or two. But you know, I was surprised

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Speaker 4: by the fact that I was like, oh, my other

417
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Speaker 4: like girlfriends don't and a bunch of whom were also

418
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Speaker 4: actually I think in that situation they were all also queer,

419
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Speaker 4: which I was like, oh yeah, but like, especially like

420
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 4: as queer people, it makes sense that there's like sluidity.

421
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Speaker 4: I was like, oh, you're not having that same experience,

422
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Speaker 4: like you are very comfortable being a woman, being feminine.

423
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Speaker 4: And I think some of it was me like learning

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Speaker 4: for myself too, like.

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Speaker 2: Just because I don't find something empowering feels like the

426
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Speaker 2: wrong word.

427
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Speaker 4: But I don't I don't find something like affirming or

428
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Speaker 4: to be a part of who I am doesn't mean

429
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Speaker 4: it's not the same way for other people.

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Speaker 2: And I think like learning that helped me realize that.

431
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Speaker 2: I was like, something is.

432
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Speaker 4: Different, Like I'm experiencing the way that I want to

433
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Speaker 4: be seen in the world differently than a lot of

434
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Speaker 4: my friends that are also women or were assigned female

435
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Speaker 4: at birth.

436
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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then so I when I was twenty, I cut.

437
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 4: My hair short for the first time. This was like

438
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 4: literally a year before the pandemic. So I beat you

439
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 4: know what, I beat everybody else. I changed my pronouns

440
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 4: before lockdown, guys, I was ahead of the curve literally,

441
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,119
Speaker 4: but I remember, like cutting my hair, I was starting

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Speaker 4: an experiment with like my friends.

443
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,040
Speaker 2: I was sort of like, hey, I think I want

444
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:31,959
Speaker 2: to start go with my joey.

445
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 4: I would like to use them pronouns, and you know,

446
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 4: started slowly at first.

447
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 2: Was just like with friends.

448
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 4: Had changed my name on like a couple of my

449
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,359
Speaker 4: social media you know, profiles and all that.

450
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 2: I was still going by my.

451
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 4: First name in school and all that, so it was

452
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 4: like not totally set, but I was like, I'm just

453
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 4: going to see.

454
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 2: How this goes. And yeah, I think that was again

455
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: like the period where I was.

456
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 4: Like, oh, I'm I'm feeling a lot more comfortable existing

457
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 4: in this gray area. And so, going back to the

458
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:03,479
Speaker 4: thing I said before about like when I was kind

459
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,560
Speaker 4: of ending high school being in college, a couple of

460
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 4: my friends had come out as non binary, and I

461
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 4: immediately was like, Okay, so this is not when I

462
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 4: am because I'm talking to them and they're like, yeah,

463
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:13,640
Speaker 4: I don't really feel like identify.

464
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,639
Speaker 2: As a man or woman out or I would like

465
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:15,200
Speaker 2: to be nothing.

466
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 4: And I was sort of like, I feel like I

467
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 4: wish I could be like both, Like I wish I

468
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 4: could just sort of like go back and forth between both,

469
00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,439
Speaker 4: Like I wish I could either be seen as like

470
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 4: a very masculine woman or like a very feminine man

471
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 4: a lot of the time. So, honestly, and this is

472
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,200
Speaker 4: back to what I was saying about, everybody experiences it differently,

473
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 4: and I think again looking at non binary is more

474
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 4: of a like taking a non binary approach to how

475
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 4: we see gender rather than this one specific checkbox of.

476
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: You can either. Basically, I think this is what's happened

477
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 2: in the last couple of years.

478
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 4: It feels weird to be complaining about this now that

479
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 4: you know woke is dead and trans people don't exist

480
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 4: anymore and all that, but I feel like I should

481
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 4: be grateful for the few wins.

482
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 2: That we had for a little bit. But sort of

483
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 2: what I think ended.

484
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,679
Speaker 4: Up happening was, you know, we got that like third

485
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 4: check box on the like survey where it would be like,

486
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 4: are you a man or you women?

487
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 2: Are you non binary?

488
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 4: And then what happened was, instead of being like, all right,

489
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 4: so no binary is just like taking a non non

490
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 4: binary look at this, it was now we've made a

491
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 4: third category, so if you're not, you're either in one, two,

492
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 4: or three, instead of being like you're either in one

493
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 4: or two or you're somewhere in the middle. I don't

494
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 4: really know how we like obviously again it's that's a

495
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 4: big concept to try and like put into official terms.

496
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 2: Like I don't really know what the answer is.

497
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,280
Speaker 4: But it was sort of this like check boxification of

498
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: what it means to be non binary. It was like

499
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 4: putting it into a very small category of this is

500
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 4: what it is. And with that people want a clear

501
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 4: concise definition and you really can't give it a clear

502
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 4: concise definition. But yeah, but I think at the end

503
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 4: of the day, I think, particularly as feminists, thinking about

504
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,680
Speaker 4: what it means to be non binary, and thinking about

505
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 4: having a more expansive idea of gender is like a

506
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 4: very very important part of our understanding of feminism because like,

507
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 4: to me, this is sort of almost the endgame of

508
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 4: like what liberation looks like, because nobody wants to, like,

509
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 4: regardless of whether you're a CIS gender man or woman

510
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 4: or transperson or non binary person or whatever, nobody wants

511
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 4: to be defined only by their gender. Like, we're all

512
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 4: so much more than that, and we live in a

513
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,560
Speaker 4: world where we have created these really rigid boxes of

514
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 4: who you are. Again again, it's that checking off the

515
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 4: survey box when you're you know, filling out the little

516
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 4: advertisement survey where you're like, I'm a just twenty to

517
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 4: twenty five, or I'm a I'm a man, I'm a woman, whatever,

518
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 4: And I think, I mean that is kind of like

519
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 4: like having that be our primary identifier. Is what you're

520
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 4: gender is. That is the patriarchy at work. That is

521
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 4: the idea that like, you're the gender you were born

522
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 4: with is so so definitive of who you're going to

523
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 4: be as a human being.

524
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: I saw a Tumbler.

525
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 4: Post about this, I know, super serious source point here,

526
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 4: but it was talking about the fact that which I

527
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 4: was like, yeah, this also sort of restinated something with me,

528
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 4: Like if you go back ten twenty years, the idea

529
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 4: of like gendered sports was a feminist issue, like the

530
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 4: fact that it was like we're saying, hey, like women

531
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 4: are not on the same athletic level as men, Like

532
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 4: that is misogyny.

533
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: And now we've sort of circled back.

534
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 4: Where turfs have taken this issue and been like, yeah, actually, no,

535
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 4: men are so scary and powerful and they can't you

536
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 4: can't have trans people in sports because of that. And

537
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 4: it's like, hey, what's happened, Like we've come back around

538
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 4: to now spewing these misogynistic ideas, Like we've come back

539
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 4: around to saying like biological determinism, the way the what

540
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 4: genitalia you were born with determines the type of person

541
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 4: that you're going to be able to be, which it shouldn't.

542
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 2: I mean, like crazy idea.

543
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 4: I don't think it should regardless again, if you're a

544
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 4: ciss woman assist man, it's the same situation. This has

545
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 4: also come up in things like you know, the like

546
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 4: oscars when there's like acting awards, like why is that

547
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 4: gender you know going back to the trans people in

548
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 4: sports thing. I think there was like a thing where

549
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 4: there was like a trans woman who was banned from

550
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 4: like a chess tournament or something where it's like, at

551
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 4: that point, like what are you saying. You're just saying

552
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 4: you think that, you know, people that are born male

553
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 4: are somehow so so radically different. And then like the

554
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 4: other thing we've seen from that whole thing is, you know,

555
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 4: like with the Olympics last summer, it doesn't just stop

556
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 4: at transoman. It's then just gonna go to anybody that

557
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: sort of exists outside of the gender binary, regardless of

558
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 4: how like, you know, however you decide to define the

559
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 4: gender binary in that case. So yeah, I think in

560
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 4: my mind, the way that I sort of think about

561
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 4: this is the concept of taking a like non binary

562
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 4: approach to gender, saying it is not just this one

563
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: thing or the other and you can only be one

564
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 4: or the other. Really owning into this idea that everybody

565
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: knows themselves best, right, like everybody knows what's best for themselves.

566
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 4: It is an idea of bodily autonomy. It is an

567
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 4: idea of like self determination. I think, at the end

568
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 4: of the day, if we want to create a world

569
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 4: that is more just and you know, not violently terribly

570
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 4: awfully misogynistic. You need to acknowledge the fact that, yeah,

571
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 4: like this gender binary should not be as strict as

572
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 4: to day is it to not really be.

573
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: There to begin with.

574
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: I don't want anybody to see me and have like

575
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 4: the main thing they're thinking about being like they're non binary.

576
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 4: They then I have to blah blah blah blah blah.

577
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 4: I like, my existence is so much more than that.

578
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: I I to me, it is saying like I don't

579
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 4: want to be defined by manhood or by womanhood. I

580
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: want to be defined by, you know, who I am

581
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 4: as a person who I am, And I think like

582
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 4: that is something that a lot of people in my

583
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 4: generation have kind of leaned into when it comes to

584
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: gender ninity.

585
00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: I keep thinking about there.

586
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 4: Was litera there was a lie I first of all,

587
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 4: I saw there. There was like an Instagram post I

588
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 4: saw that was like, it's like the twenty year anniversary

589
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 4: of the like the bisexuality episode of Sex in the

590
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: City where they were like raking all the characters based

591
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 4: on like how much bio energy they have. But I

592
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: was thinking about there was like a line that Samantha

593
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 4: has in it where she's like, I think in the future,

594
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,119
Speaker 4: like it's not gonna be like about sleeping with men

595
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 4: and sleeping with women.

596
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: It's gonna be about like sleeping with individuals.

597
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 4: And I was like, yeah, like that that is kind

598
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 4: of what like, at least for me in my bubble

599
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 4: and my gen Z bubble of people, like I think

600
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 4: that is how we're trying to reframe that.

601
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, regardless in.

602
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 4: This case, we're talking about personal identity rather than attraction.

603
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 4: But it is like people just want to be seen

604
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: as individuals.

605
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: As people.

606
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 4: They don't want it to The goal of feminism is equality.

607
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 4: The goal of feminism is for us all to be

608
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 4: treated similarly, and part of that is understanding like we

609
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 4: don't even really need these clear cut definitions of what

610
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 4: it is to be a man and what it is

611
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 4: to be a woman, because like, who does that at

612
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 4: the end of the day.

613
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: That helps the patriarchy, That's the answer for sure.

614
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: There's definitely such a depth in this conversation because you

615
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 3: had a whole philosophical level of like, but I don't

616
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: know why I have to be this, but I don't

617
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: think of this because I don't feel this way and

618
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: it is so real that that's that's the understanding that

619
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: you have to unlearn so much of the misogyny and

620
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 3: the patriarchy that you realize how deep it goes into

621
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: your identity and trying to unlearn those And that's for

622
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 3: any individual who may not have that moment of like,

623
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: oh wait, I may be gay, it might be trains

624
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 3: that may be this or that. That's just the whole

625
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: level of unlearning.

626
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 4: I think a big thing for me that idea of

627
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 4: like I'm learning too is realizing and this is kind

628
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 4: of what I was going into with that story was

629
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 4: like or talking about, you know, growing up and all

630
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 4: these things. I think realizing I don't have the same

631
00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 4: experiences as everybody else and that's like that's not bad thing.

632
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 2: Like that's good.

633
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 4: But it's also like it's realizing that something that can

634
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: feel like right and can feel like authentic for someone else.

635
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: I might see that and be like thinking.

636
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 4: Like, okay, thinking about myself, I'm bringing up this topic.

637
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: I'm not getting into the obvious debate that is happening online.

638
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 4: So Brina Carpenter was a great example for me for

639
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 4: there was when she first like came out to see

640
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 4: and I was sort of like, I don't like that is.

641
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: A version of femininity.

642
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: If you put me in that, I would be deeply uncomfortable.

643
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 2: I would be like, I hate this.

644
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 4: I am not this is not me, this is weird,

645
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 4: this is demeaning to me.

646
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: I don't like it.

647
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: Realizing that a lot of my friends saw that and

648
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 4: we're like, no, that's a version of feminity that like,

649
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 4: I really feel comfortable and I really feel like it

650
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 4: reflects my gender expression.

651
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, cool, that's like I love that

652
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: for you.

653
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 4: It's a different experience for me, like being able to

654
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 4: separate what is my truth versus what is.

655
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: Other people's version of that. We all have different EXAs experiences.

656
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 4: We're all coming back to that, Like that's that's the

657
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 4: point of coming back to in the end, I guess,

658
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 4: I think, especially to something for me is like I'm

659
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 4: I consider myself a transvasculine person too. I honestly like

660
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 4: my expression. I lean a lot more on the masculine side.

661
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 4: I am not. I haven't done anything too physically transition yet.

662
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 4: I might down the way. I don't know yet. I

663
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 4: have friends that are kind of like one of my roommates.

664
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 4: I always like, don't about how from like we're doing,

665
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 4: Like we're like the two cars passing each other and

666
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 4: like being like, what what are you doing here? Because

667
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 4: they're like a transfeminine, non binary person. We had like

668
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 4: a conversation a couple of weeks ago where we were

669
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 4: talking about our experiences. We had like a very very

670
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: similar experience sort of again going in opposite directions, which

671
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 4: was a little bit funny, but also like talking to

672
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: them and like hearing how like exploring their femininity was

673
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 4: has been very empowering and has been very and like

674
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: getting to see them really turn into this like person

675
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 4: that you know, they seem so much more confident, they

676
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 4: seem so much more like actualized in this identity and

677
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 4: being like, that's amazing.

678
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: I love that that's in power for you. I love

679
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: that that's you linking in to.

680
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 4: Your Like if I did that, it would be I

681
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 4: would hate it.

682
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: I would not be having a good time.

683
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 4: But then yeah, and then I think that also helps

684
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 4: me then communicate to like, you know, I grew again,

685
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 4: I grew up a feminist.

686
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: I grew up as.

687
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 4: Somebody who is like seen as by society as a girl.

688
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 4: I grew up as a staunch feminist. I was raised

689
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 4: by like a mom who was very, very feminist. I

690
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 4: think being able to also communicate why like, I can

691
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 4: still be a feminist, I can still be supportive of

692
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 4: femininity and like not saying that masculinity is like better

693
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: than femininity inherently, but also realizing there's a lot of

694
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 4: things about femininity that I am.

695
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: Not comfortable with that I don't like for myself. You know,

696
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 2: I love it for other people, I don't love it

697
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: for myself.

698
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 5: Well, we appreciate you coming on and talking about this

699
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 5: because I always feel you keep immering home at the

700
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 5: point everybody's different, everybody's an individual, and having a like

701
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 5: one oh one, it's very tricky, and especially when the

702
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 5: experiences can differ so vastly. And one of the things

703
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 5: that you brought up that I've also run into, which

704
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 5: I've always known, but sometimes it can be very shocking,

705
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 5: is that I also have a bubble. Yeah, sometimes I

706
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 5: leave that bubble. And even with people I'm like, I

707
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 5: feel like we're on the generally on the same page,

708
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 5: and they don't know the difference between Like.

709
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: They couldn't tell me what.

710
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 5: Like gender identity even is they don't know what that is,

711
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 5: and so you know, I'll like sit down and try

712
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 5: to explain it to them. But it's just really interesting

713
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 5: when you kind of step outside of the people who

714
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 5: really are in the same world as you. But that

715
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 5: being said, what are some things that you wish people

716
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 5: knew when it comes to identifying as non binary?

717
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is like

718
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 4: kind of what I was saying on the top, this

719
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 4: is not a new idea.

720
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: I think the language is knew.

721
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 4: The way that we were discussing it is new, but

722
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 4: it's not a new idea. I love to point to

723
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: the you know, anecdote about how I think it was.

724
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 4: I can't remember when this happened, but sometime in like

725
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 4: the early twentieth century, they stopped teaching kids that you

726
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 4: can only write with your right hand, like they were

727
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 4: letting kids actually learn how to be lefties if they

728
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 4: were lefties, and like all of a sudden, the number

729
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: of lefties like shot up, Like all of a sudden,

730
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: were all of these kids that were left handed, And

731
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 4: it was like it wasn't like there was necessarily something

732
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 4: that made more people lefties. It was just that they

733
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 4: were stopping punishing that.

734
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: You know, it's people use that a lot.

735
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 4: I mean people have talked about that with you know,

736
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 4: talking about like the way that we talk about like

737
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 4: autism diagnosis and stuff like that, people talk about queer

738
00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: people the way we talk about they were like neuro

739
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 4: diver To see, in general, there's all these different things.

740
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 4: The way people talk about you know, a lot of

741
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 4: this isn't new. I think the reason you're seeing like

742
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 4: it might seem, you know, from the outside, like it's like, oh,

743
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 4: it's this gen z thing that all of these young

744
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 4: kids are tapping on, this trend. We just this is

745
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: the result of decades of people fighting for more gender equality,

746
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 4: of fighting for more bodily autonomy, of fighting for more

747
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 4: you know, queer liberation.

748
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: More people are admitting that.

749
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 4: I you know, you see older folks now that are

750
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 4: coming out as trans are is on binary as adults

751
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 4: because they just were never.

752
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,240
Speaker 2: Given that room to explore that as a child.

753
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 4: Again, I think like for me, I always kind of

754
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 4: Again I don't think I always knew I was like

755
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 4: not a woman on me, but I always sort of

756
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: knew there was something that was different about me. I

757
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 4: didn't have the words for it until I was older.

758
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 4: So yeah, this is not new. The way that we're

759
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 4: talking about it is new. Every person can point to

760
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 4: somebody in their life that they were, like they're not

761
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 4: necessarily like on one or the other end of the

762
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 4: gender binary.

763
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 2: Just because they weren't calling them non.

764
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 4: Binary at the time doesn't mean that that was not

765
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 4: like you know, that they were not a real actualized person.

766
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:10,799
Speaker 4: I think the next like the next thing too, And

767
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 4: this is something that always bugs me. I y'all like

768
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 4: we're not that sensitive. You can chill out a little bit.

769
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 4: I think this happens with like a lot of queer

770
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 4: stuff in general, where there's this idea of like, oh

771
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: my god, like like can't offend like anybody.

772
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 2: Nobody hype.

773
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 4: Most people understand like it might take a sec to

774
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 4: adjust to new pronouns or like whatever it is.

775
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 2: It's for me it is like intent.

776
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: Intent is the thing that matters if you are really

777
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 4: trying to work at changing the way that you're talking

778
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 4: about somebody, if you're really like working at you know,

779
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 4: addressing somebody in the way it's about respect. Like at

780
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 4: the end of the day, the way like when we're

781
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: talking about pronouns, we're talking about names and stuff like that.

782
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 4: It's about showing respect for somebody and saying, okay, like

783
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 4: I'm acknowledging that I'm treating you the way that you

784
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 4: would like to be seen. Nobody's gonna freak out at

785
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 4: you if you don't get it right right away.

786
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 2: If somebody does, I'm sorry, that's their problem.

787
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 4: That's not like, that's not a reflection on the rest

788
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 4: of us. That doesn't mean don't try. But also like, yeah,

789
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 4: there is room for you know, if you're confused, that's fine.

790
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: There's lots of things they're confused. Again.

791
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 4: The thing that I keep saying, everybody's got different experiences.

792
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna pretend like I fully understand. I don't

793
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 4: know what it's like to be a trans woman.

794
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,240
Speaker 2: You know. I'm not gonna stand here.

795
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 4: And be like I like, I'm not gonna be mad

796
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: because I'm like, I.

797
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 2: Don't necessarily know.

798
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 4: What that experience is life or what's gonna be comfortable

799
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 4: or whatever. I'm gonna say this thing and it's gonna

800
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 4: blah blah blah blah. I'm not gonna be like, well,

801
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 4: that's just too complicated and I can't deal with it,

802
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 4: and you're the problem. Like I'm like, no, teach me.

803
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 4: That's part of being a human being is learning. So again,

804
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 4: I don't know, but just I don't know where this idea.

805
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 4: It's very much like it's the right wing, like oh,

806
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 4: you can't say anything these days, like everybody's just so flake. No,

807
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 4: most people understand, and it's like I don't know. People

808
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 4: make mistakes, things change.

809
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: I yeah, I don't know.

810
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 4: One of the best sort of things that I heard

811
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 4: was like, Okay, if you're you can be confused by

812
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 4: it and still like respect people's ability to like express

813
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 4: their own bodily autonomy, right, Like you could be like

814
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 4: I don't totally understand this, but I support your right

815
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 4: to self determination or whatever.

816
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: I think.

817
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 4: Like, if you're still confused by this idea, I think

818
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 4: just literally thinking about that like check boxification quote unquote

819
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 4: that I keep talking about, Like the way that we

820
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 4: think about it is if you're like, yeah, if you're

821
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 4: a man, woman, non binary, these three options like just

822
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 4: get that out of your head, like destroy that. It

823
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 4: is not a third option. It is a looking at

824
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 4: this binary and being like, hey, there is all this

825
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: space in between.

826
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,320
Speaker 2: There is all this space in between. It is all fluid.

827
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 4: It is all people go back and forth, people whatever

828
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 4: it is, looking at the idea of how we think

829
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 4: about gender in our world right now and saying, hey,

830
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 4: maybe it's not as set in stone as we were

831
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 4: told it is. And again, that's why I think I

832
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 4: keep coming back to this is ultimately like a feminist issue.

833
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 4: This is ultimately an issue of people having the right

834
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 4: to their own bodily autonomy, people having the right to

835
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 4: define who they are, people having the right to express

836
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 4: that in the way that feels comfortable for them.

837
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 2: And then like at the end of the day, like

838
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 2: who really cares, Like is it really.

839
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 4: Bothering you if somebody is using them pronouns Like I'm sorry,

840
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 4: it's an adjustment, but like, I don't know. I'm from Chicago.

841
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 4: I grew up calling the Sears Tower. I also like,

842
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: it's the Willis Tower now. I grew up calling it

843
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 4: the Seers Tower. Nobody like in the media was like, oh, well,

844
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 4: you know, we don't know what to call it. What

845
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 4: are the Like, it's things change names all the time.

846
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 4: It's not like again, at the end of the day,

847
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 4: why it's not bothering you?

848
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: It's not bothering you? What other people do. It's not

849
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: bothering you.

850
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 4: If somebody gets a tattoo and you don't like tattoos,

851
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 4: or if they get appeers.

852
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: Like, it shouldn't bother you. If somebody decides they want

853
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 2: to go by different.

854
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 5: Pronouns, but bother them, it does other than the time

855
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,479
Speaker 5: I get it, So do the tattoos and the fact

856
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 5: you know, I'm I.

857
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 2: It should there are anything, but it does. Oh. I

858
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: think it's just like you know, we all know.

859
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 5: But I think it's that idea of like this change

860
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 5: is and somehow encroaching on my beliefs and it's making

861
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 5: me uncomfortable. In heaven forbid, I have to take like

862
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 5: an extra second and like think about this.

863
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 4: I feel like the people that complain the most to

864
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 4: are the people that it's like you you don't actually

865
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 4: know like a single transperson.

866
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: I guess that's why I keep going back to.

867
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 4: I'm like, we're not ready wants to pretend like, oh, well,

868
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 4: y'all are so sensitive, y'all like are gonna jump at

869
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 4: any And I'm like, have you talked to a single

870
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,280
Speaker 4: non minor person like I don't, I don't know anybody

871
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 4: that most people I know like there was some comedian

872
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 4: that there was like a stand up bit that was

873
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 4: going around that they were talking about where they were like, yeah,

874
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 4: on my proe arounds are they them or she her?

875
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 4: Unless somebody use that because like I'm that confrontation or whatever.

876
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: Like I was like, yeah, no, I was like this, this

877
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: is not party. I mean, I don't know that. Also,

878
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: just my social circles, I'm like most people I know

879
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 2: are like pretty non confrontational.

880
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 4: People are probably gonna be like, oh yeah, whatever, sure,

881
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 4: let it.

882
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: Go, move on.

883
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: You're like, let it go, move on.

884
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: All right, We're gonna We're just gonna keep going with this.

885
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 3: I feel like you've already addressed because we were talking

886
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 3: on the next one of the other things.

887
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: I would be like, what are some things that annoy you?

888
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: I feel like we touched on to that.

889
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,479
Speaker 3: When it comes to, uh, the non binary, when people

890
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 3: talk about non non binary folks in general, anything else

891
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: to add.

892
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 4: I yeah, I mean I think like when I said, again,

893
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 4: it's the it's the just because language is new doesn't

894
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 4: mean the concepts are now.

895
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: And then also it really isn't that big of a deal.

896
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: It's really is not like a to the end of

897
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 2: the day.

898
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 4: It's about somebody's individual experience and that's nothing to do

899
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 4: with you, like it and it has nothing to.

900
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: Do with you.

901
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 4: I I think these are conversations people should have. I

902
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 4: think even if you are somebody who identifies as like cisgender,

903
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, exploring gender identity, and even if you

904
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 4: come out of that and you still identify as gender like,

905
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: we all could benefit from thinking about the way that

906
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 4: we think about our own gender and thinking about the

907
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 4: ways that the idea of gender and the gender binery

908
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,919
Speaker 4: sort of shapes how we view the world. I think

909
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: that is healthy for everybody to think about that. I

910
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 4: think at the end of the yeah, I think these

911
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 4: are important conversations to have because of that. I think

912
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: it is part of feminist liberation, It is part of

913
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 4: queer liberation. It is part of just personal learning who

914
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 4: you are, because yeah, nobody, like I said, nobody wants

915
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 4: to be defined solely by their gender. I mean maybe somebody,

916
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 4: I don't know, maybe the like tradwise on TikTok or something.

917
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 4: But you know, give them a couple of years, I

918
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: guess maybe we'll have an awakening.

919
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 2: Who's to say it they do.

920
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 3: I mean, it's very important to realize, just like you

921
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 3: were saying that this shouldn't be a big deal.

922
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: Everybody should be able to be who they are without.

923
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 3: It being like you making you being like the yeah,

924
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: you making it a big deal, just existing. Most trans

925
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 3: people would rather just be there and be able to

926
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 3: quietly change into who they were felt like they were

927
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 3: meant to be, without people making it a big deal,

928
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 3: without people making it like a big part of their

929
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: identity unless they want to because they want to use

930
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: it for activism stuff like that that I think about

931
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 3: that all the time as an Asian, as a Korean person,

932
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 3: Oftentimes that's the only thing they see, that's my identifier,

933
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 3: and you're like, why can't.

934
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: I just exist?

935
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: And the same thing for like just in general, for

936
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: women and feminists who are like, we don't want this

937
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: separate category, honestly, we just want to be seen as

938
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 3: equal and be treated as equal and get equal pay

939
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 3: all those things, and it doesn't want to be a

940
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: big deal. We don't want it to make a special

941
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: category if you treated us equally, Like there's this level

942
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 3: of understanding that if society, if the patriarchy did not

943
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: exist or existed into when the matriarch was just as

944
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 3: much an equal factor in conversation, then it would be

945
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: wonderful that would I would rather be ignored as this

946
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 3: and be seen as talent, you know what I mean.

947
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 3: There's so much in that conversation and normalizing these conversations

948
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: where it's not a big deal. So we have the

949
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 3: younger generations who are trying to figure themselves out, don't

950
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 3: not feel the struggle an internal turmoil of like am

951
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 3: I sinning you know in that level, or if I

952
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 3: like ruin society and my family, if I come out

953
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: as any of these other factors that I was told

954
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: was not the typical, not the stereotypical way to be

955
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 3: like that would be beautiful, where just like if a

956
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 3: child was able to be like, oh yeah, I am

957
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 3: attracted to by same sex, that's great, moving on, you know,

958
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 3: like being able to have breakfast and then saying I'm maybe,

959
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 3: maybe not maybe I'm attracted to all any both, you know,

960
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 3: whatever what not, and not having to feel like they

961
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: had to fight against that because somehow they're wrong.

962
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: I think.

963
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: Going off of that, like I always kind of say

964
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: I never wanted the fact that I was queer or

965
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 4: the fact that I was not metting or whatever to.

966
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: Be a big deal. I didn't want to have to

967
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: talk about it.

968
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 4: I am somebody who like works in a like queer

969
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 4: media space right now.

970
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: The reason for that is because we live in a deeply.

971
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 4: Homophobic, tarensphobic, et cetera, et cetera world I where you know, I've.

972
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 2: Kind of I have to talk about it. I don't.

973
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 4: I would love if I could just be like, these

974
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 4: are my promous this is what I want to do

975
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 4: whatever end of the day. But I keep having to

976
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: justify it to other people. And so I've kind of

977
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 4: learned how to, like, you know, have that be part.

978
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: Of the things that I talk about.

979
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I mentioned I had written something around

980
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 4: Rance dan visibility about this, and something that I.

981
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,720
Speaker 2: Think I compared it to was in high school.

982
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 4: I was I was really involved with a lot of

983
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 4: like student film stuff, and I was there a couple

984
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 4: of different instances where like I was the only like

985
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,799
Speaker 4: girl on set, and you know, like, I think that

986
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 4: was an experience where I remember like being very vocal

987
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 4: about like women in film and like meeting more women

988
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 4: in film.

989
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I never wanted the.

990
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 4: Fact that I was like I would show up to

991
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 4: the student film set, I would be the only girl.

992
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 2: I didn't want.

993
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 4: People to think about that, Like I didn't want people

994
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 4: to like look at me and be.

995
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 2: Like the token girl is here, like whatever. And I

996
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 2: think it's the.

997
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 4: Same thing with gender identity, where I was like, I

998
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 4: don't want the first thing that people think about, Like

999
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 4: I don't want it to be the thing that stands

1000
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 4: out to be like, oh, well, they're non binary, they're

1001
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 4: trans whatever. I don't want it to have to be

1002
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: a thing that I have to think about that I

1003
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 4: have to worry about how that's.

1004
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 2: Impacting of other people are seeing me.

1005
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 4: I just want to be I think, like similar to

1006
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 4: what you said, I don't want this separate category.

1007
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: I just want to be.

1008
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 4: Growing up I one of my I was really into

1009
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 4: like riot girl music growing up Shocker and.

1010
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: I loved like Sleeterer Keeney.

1011
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 4: And there was an interview I think that Carrie Brownstein

1012
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 4: about like where she was talking about how like frustrating

1013
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 4: it was being interviewed and constantly being asked like about

1014
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 4: being like a girl rock group instead of just being

1015
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 4: asked about like being a rock group and like being

1016
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 4: one of the biggest like rock bands at the time,

1017
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 4: but they were constantly put in this category of like,

1018
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 4: but you guys are like a girl rock group.

1019
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 2: Nobody wants that.

1020
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 4: Again, even if you're sis gender, nobody wants to be

1021
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 4: solely defined as this thing that makes them different.

1022
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think we many of us could have tested that. Annie,

1023
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 3: you can at tested that. That's kind of how you

1024
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 3: started with this show.

1025
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I wanted to be on the Science Show and

1026
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 5: they're like, but you're the lady, so you're the whole

1027
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 5: talk about girl stuff. You go to the Feminist, which

1028
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 5: I'm glad I did, but I just remember being like, okay, right, Like.

1029
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 4: Sometimes I feel like kind of a like hypocrite for

1030
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 4: add because I'm like, and I do work on like

1031
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 4: the iHeart like queer slate of shows. I do talk

1032
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 4: a lot about these ship but I'm like, but I

1033
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 4: don't want other people to have to do it, like

1034
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 4: I'm kind of doing it because like I don't shut up,

1035
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 4: and I don't know, Like I was like, you know what,

1036
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 4: I might as well, but I don't want this to

1037
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 4: be the only option.

1038
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:38,359
Speaker 3: You know, right, right, you have become a leader now

1039
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 3: in this kind of conversation and advocate in this. So

1040
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 3: what advice would you give to others who are maybe

1041
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 3: starting their own journey.

1042
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, oh, thank you. I don't

1043
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 2: know if I call myself a leader, but you are.

1044
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: Oh thank you.

1045
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 4: An I think like, at the end of the day,

1046
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 4: like I said, I think, regardless of whether if you

1047
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 4: come out of this and you're actually I think I'm

1048
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 4: s gender. I think it is healthy for everybody to

1049
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 4: think a little bit about gender identity and question lero

1050
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: on gender identity. I think that's healthy at the end

1051
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 4: of the day, Like you are the only one that

1052
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 4: gets to define who you are, and like.

1053
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 2: That might seem cliche, but like it genuinely is very hard.

1054
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 4: I mean, it took me a very long time to

1055
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 4: be open about this again because like I didn't again,

1056
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: I wanted to short hair my entire life. I didn't

1057
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 4: cut my hair until I was twenty because I was

1058
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 4: just always told like I was gonna look ugly, it

1059
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 4: was going to be bad. It was like a terrible decision,

1060
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 4: I shouldn't do that. And then I cut my hair

1061
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 4: and I was like wow, I like, literally something that

1062
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 4: small made such huge difference in my life.

1063
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: You are you are the only one that really knows you.

1064
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 4: I think also something that really really helped me was

1065
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 4: finding and and again not everybody has this option finding,

1066
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:50,879
Speaker 4: but I find it if you can, like find other

1067
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 4: queer and trans people to like have in your life

1068
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 4: to talk to about these things, that made so much

1069
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: difference because I think, again, like a lot of my

1070
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 4: friends that originally come out, I had very different experiences

1071
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:01,880
Speaker 4: from them. But also I think talking to them and

1072
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 4: hearing about their experience has helped me figure out my own.

1073
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day.

1074
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 4: Like talking to even talking to my age, like I said,

1075
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 4: talking to my sister friends about these things and finding

1076
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 4: out that their experience was drastically different than mine helped

1077
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 4: me also realize I was like, oh, a lot of

1078
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 4: the things that I'm like, Like, there was a very

1079
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 4: long time where I was like, womanhood is just pain,

1080
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 4: Like it's just it's it is just pain, Like that

1081
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 4: is it. And I was like, oh, like that actually

1082
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 4: is not feminist. That's just me torturing myself at the

1083
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 4: end of the day. And so yeah, I think have

1084
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 4: these conversations if you can.

1085
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 2: It is hard.

1086
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I again, I didn't like I knew a

1087
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 4: couple of career people growing up in high school.

1088
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: But I most in my early sort of exposure.

1089
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 4: To the queer community was online, was through you know,

1090
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,959
Speaker 4: things like Tumblr. I think it's a double edged sword

1091
00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 4: because I literally before recording opened up TikTok and there

1092
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 4: was you know, the latest round of whatever stupid Pride

1093
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 4: Month discourse. Don't get caught up in the distractions, That's

1094
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 4: all I'm to say, you know what. It also, don't

1095
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 4: police other people's identity while.

1096
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: You're figuring out your own.

1097
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 4: There's a way to figure out your own identity and

1098
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 4: while not getting too entangled with worrying about what other

1099
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 4: people are doing.

1100
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean I think, I think at the

1101
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:14,439
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's your life.

1102
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 4: It's your life, and and you should be able to

1103
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 4: determine what makes you like the truest, happiest version of yourself.

1104
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 2: And also, I mean, I.

1105
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 4: This is obviously and like I've alluded to this, it's

1106
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 4: a weird time to be talking about this. I like, again,

1107
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 4: I feel weird even complaining about the like putting the

1108
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 4: little non binary check box.

1109
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: Because it's like, well now we don't even have that anymore.

1110
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 2: But also, like things are bad right now.

1111
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 4: We've gotten through some of the worst, like we as

1112
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 4: the queer community have gotten through, like within my parents' lifetimes,

1113
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 4: within my lifetime, because technically sodomy was illegal in Texas

1114
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 4: until like two.

1115
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 2: Thousand and three. Within my like it, it was literally

1116
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: illegal to be gay. Like things, people have survived, People

1117
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: are persisted.

1118
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 4: I think, like, find your community, find your little bubble,

1119
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 4: you're enclave. Just because the worst, most awful people are

1120
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 4: like in positions of power right now and making those

1121
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 4: opinions loud. Humanity at the end of the day, I

1122
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 4: think humanity is good. I think most people are good.

1123
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 4: I think most people are willing to change their minds

1124
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 4: about things. I think, like you know, we literally like

1125
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 4: studies have shown when people like know people in their

1126
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,840
Speaker 4: life that are trans it changes their perspective on the

1127
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 4: trans community.

1128
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 2: People care about each other.

1129
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 4: So don't also like I want to lose hope right

1130
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 4: now that this is just going to be all there is.

1131
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's a good message, and I'm so glad

1132
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 5: we got to have you on before pride ended.

1133
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: Uh, because yes, yeah, I'll pushing it back. It has

1134
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: been insanely hot in New York today.

1135
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,320
Speaker 4: It's the first say, it's like kind of back to normal,

1136
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 4: but it's about like in the nineties in New York

1137
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 4: for like the past two we say in Chicago.

1138
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 2: I was in Chicago last weekend. It was I don't know,

1139
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 2: it's bad. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. Yes.

1140
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 5: Well you also we kind of mentioned I don't know

1141
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 5: if we said specifics because we just count Raquel as

1142
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 5: our friend. Now, yeah, but Raquel is the host of

1143
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 5: the show that you work on, Afterlives.

1144
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, as mentioned.

1145
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 4: After Lives marsh P. Johnson out now wherever you got

1146
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 4: your podcasts. At least the first three episodes are out.

1147
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't know when this.

1148
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 4: The fourth episode might be out by the time this drops,

1149
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,959
Speaker 4: we'll see, I guess, but please give it a listen.

1150
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 4: I again, I think, like kind of going back to

1151
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, I think. I think I I'm a

1152
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 4: bighostory buff. I think like when things are weird, when

1153
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 4: stuff is you know, the way it is right now,

1154
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 4: I think it is important to look to history and

1155
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 4: look to you know, our ancestors and see like what

1156
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 4: how they survived, like see the things that I survived,

1157
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 4: see the like things that they overcame. So I would

1158
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 4: give that a listen you get into some of those

1159
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,879
Speaker 4: queer elder interviews that I was mentioning before again, fun

1160
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 4: discussions all the way that, yeah, we've always kind of

1161
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 4: been here a lot of There were a couple people

1162
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 4: that we interviewed who I think like they they more

1163
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,399
Speaker 4: or less identified as on binary. They would have said

1164
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 4: it in different terms because again, it's it's the language

1165
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 4: has changed. But I was like, oh, I'm hearing you

1166
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 4: talk about your experience and I'm seeing my own reflected

1167
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 4: in that, like I've I've had, Like, it's we have

1168
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 4: always been here, and I think history is a great

1169
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 4: way to kind of remind ourselves of that. So anyways,

1170
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 4: listen to Afterlives marsh by Johnson.

1171
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, absolutely, and thank you because you helped set

1172
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 5: up that interview with for Kel of course, Yeah, thank you, Joey. Well,

1173
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 5: where else can the good listeners find you?

1174
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can find me on and Instagram. I have

1175
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 4: that PC front pressing that I wrote on my Instagram

1176
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 4: that is at pat not Pratt. That is p A

1177
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 4: T T n O T p R A T t uh.

1178
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 4: People get my last name wrong a lot, uh. You

1179
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 4: can find me there. That's also my Twitter but I

1180
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 4: don't really use that much lately. And yeah, yeah, check

1181
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 4: out Afterlives. You can also listen to Uh there Are

1182
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 4: No Girls on the Internet, which is with another friend

1183
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 4: of the show, Bridge Todd also work on that one.

1184
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 5: But yeah, yes, and past episodes over here.

1185
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: Yes, and I'll be back. I'll do more a new

1186
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: election stuff right.

1187
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1188
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, like I need to come back

1189
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 4: on and do it like a fine like Superhero. We

1190
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 4: haven't done our Twilight Rappo.

1191
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 3: And then we also need to bring you back on

1192
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 3: for Sex in the City because we're still on that

1193
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 3: as well, and I love of attached to that.

1194
00:54:58,040 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: It makes me very happy.

1195
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 4: I did Ben the Hire Show after watching like one

1196
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 4: episode of The Eyes and was like that honestly, I

1197
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 4: loved it, like watching I watched it last summer and

1198
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 4: it was like I needed that, it was it was

1199
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 4: It's great. I did also recently watch the movie like

1200
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 4: for the first time, Oh you watched the movie?

1201
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,680
Speaker 2: That was like I so much happened. That was just

1202
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: I like, literally like I fit.

1203
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 4: There were multiple points in the movie where I was like, oh,

1204
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 4: it's the end, It's almost over, and I would like

1205
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 4: click on the thing and be like we are twenty

1206
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 4: minutes in.

1207
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:33,800
Speaker 2: There's so much happens. They don't make movies like that anymore.

1208
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's exciting. Oh oh well, I cannot wait for one.

1209
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 1: I'm excited for this.

1210
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 2: I am kind of on that, not two.

1211
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,719
Speaker 4: I know, the like new the like reboot has like

1212
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 4: a really awful like attempt to try to do like

1213
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 4: non binary stuff or whatever. Like like I'm kind of

1214
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 4: like morbidly attempted to watch it and just see how bad.

1215
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 3: It because it's it's a whole thing, and I don't

1216
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 3: know what the new seasons are, like yeah, and just

1217
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 3: like that, we watched the first season.

1218
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, huh interesting. Interesting.

1219
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 4: All I know is there's a guy that I went

1220
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 4: to college with who has like a small role in it.

1221
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 4: And I only know this because I still follow him

1222
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,720
Speaker 4: on Instagram from like the one class we took together,

1223
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,680
Speaker 4: and he keeps posting about it and I'm like, wait,

1224
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 4: like that's good.

1225
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 2: Anyways, I don't know, it's so weird to see like

1226
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: people that I like. That is kind I don't know.

1227
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyways, that's a whole story, you know, like you're

1228
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 4: actually doing things that's crazy.

1229
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: But also Joey they carry is a podcaster?

1230
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, podcast. So it's a radio show. Yes,

1231
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 2: oh yes, he says it's a podcast.

1232
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: They say it's a podcast.

1233
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 2: But you got you have to just go take a

1234
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 2: chance what you're saying. Chut'll check it out. I'll check

1235
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 2: it out, you know. Yeah, whoa, Okay, that's for laters.

1236
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 5: Many many things to come back and discuss.

1237
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: Joey. We always love having you. Thank you so much

1238
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 2: for coming on. We know this was a big like,

1239
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: can you come on.

1240
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 4: Of course, yeah, copya, thanks for letting me ramble for

1241
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 4: an hour.

1242
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 2: Always love it till next time, next time.

1243
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 5: But in the meantime, listeners that you can contact us

1244
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:33,959
Speaker 5: if you would like, You can email us at Hello

1245
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 5: A stuff neever told you, dot Com, provide us on

1246
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 5: Blue Sky, I'm mo on stuff podcast or Instagram and

1247
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 5: TikTok and stuff we Never told you. We're also on

1248
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,919
Speaker 5: YouTube and we have a book you can get wherever

1249
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 5: you get your books. Thanks z always too, our super

1250
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 5: producer Christina or executive producer, my anti contributor, Joey. Thank you,

1251
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 5: Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never told you.

1252
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 2: Production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart

1253
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: Radio You

1254
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 5: Can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or

1255
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 5: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.