1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Modulator Media. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Previously on live Wire, The Loud Life and Shocking Murder 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: of Alan Burg. 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: The first question that came to everybody's mind was was 5 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 2: what happened? 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 3: Why did Alan get murdered? 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: There was a lot of wondering about was it something 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: to do with his personal life, Was it something to 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 2: do with his past life when he was an attorney 10 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: in Chicago and had some interactions with some of the 11 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: mafia supposedly, or some organized gangsters of one sort or another. 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 2: Or did it have something to do with the radio 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: station in his show and all of that. 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 4: KOA morning talk show host Alan Berg reportedly was shot 15 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 4: and killed tonight in downtown Denver. Details of that shooting, 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 4: which happened around ten tonight or sketchy, However, Denver please 17 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 4: have identified the victim as Alan Berg. 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 5: It was a devastating, a challenging situation for all of us. 19 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 5: There were private security guards that had been hired in 20 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 5: the lobby because we didn't know if this was wider 21 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 5: than Alan or if there were other people at the 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 5: radio station being targeted. 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 6: The police launched essentially what was one of the largest, 24 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 6: if not the largest investigation into a murder in Denver 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 6: and in Denver's history, and they did all the things 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 6: that police do in those circumstances, case the neighborhood question people. 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 7: And one day in July of nineteen eighty four, a 28 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 7: group of men robbed an armored car up in Ukaya, California, 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 7: in my district, and I became immediately assigned to work. 30 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 8: On that case with the FBI agents, and they were 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 8: eventually beginning to learn that this wasn't one crime committed 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 8: by one person, but this was a series of crimes 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:58,919 Speaker 8: committed by a group. 34 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,639 Speaker 1: By the time a group of men robbed an armored 35 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: car hundreds of miles away in Ukaya, California, Denver's police 36 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: and District Attorney had been hard at work for some 37 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: time on the biggest homicide case in the city's history. 38 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: My name is David Heckenbach. At the time that we 39 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:30,800 Speaker 3: were reviewing the Ellenberg homicide, I was My title was 40 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 3: chief Deputy in charge of the Complex Prosecutions Unit in 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 3: Denver for the District Attorney's office, and my job entailed 42 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 3: running all grand jury investigations, public corruption, and then any 43 00:02:54,040 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 3: what the elected DA My boss at that time norm 44 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 3: early decided was complicated enough for the Complex Prosecutions Unit 45 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: to be involved. Well, initially it was just news. It 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: was a big news item here in Colorado and certainly 47 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 3: in the Denver area. And I mean was you know, 48 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: newspapers are almost a thing in the past at this point, 49 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: but it was front page news for sure. It also 50 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: made national news, and so that's how I first became 51 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 3: aware of it. 52 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 9: There could be a clue to who the murderer is 53 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 9: in the recent threats and the records that we have 54 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 9: at the station and the police might have, but then again, 55 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 9: there may not be. Alan was constantly joking about the 56 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 9: threats that were made on his life. I don't really 57 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 9: know how seriously he took them. Maybe he did, but 58 00:03:58,880 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 9: he never. 59 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: Appeared to on this at the very beginning of the case. Yeah, 60 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 3: I think everybody had their suspicions. I mean, well, number one, 61 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 3: Allen was the guy, you know, I used the phrase 62 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 3: earlier that everybody loved to hate. He was extremely provocative. 63 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 3: He was a wild and crazy personality on the radio. 64 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 3: I'm not afraid to take on anybody over anything, and 65 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: he had I am sure many enemies. 66 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 10: Do you guys want to hit for Chris, you're making 67 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 10: yourself right on this very conversation. You made an other 68 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 10: full of yourself. You have no credibility whatsoever. You dig 69 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 10: what I do. 70 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 11: You have a need. 71 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 10: Unfortunately, you have no sense of humor. That's why you 72 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 10: can't ever enjoy this show, and that's why you're a loser. 73 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 10: As all people have no sense of humor, and you 74 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 10: are categorically. 75 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: One of them. 76 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 10: By one line's open, I can't have you busy. 77 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: And there was a tremendous amount of public pressure and 78 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 3: pressure among us in law enforcement to find the answers 79 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 3: and to bring these people to justice. Everybody was outraised. 80 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: It's not like we needed more motivation to try and 81 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 3: find these guys. But of course, the Jewish community, the 82 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: radio community, and we are dealing with somebody who was 83 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 3: basically killed for exercising his right to free speech. It 84 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 3: wasn't just an anti Semitic homicide. It was that, for sure, 85 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 3: but it was also much more than that. To have 86 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 3: someone come into town and assassinate a public figure in 87 00:05:53,920 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 3: the most brutal, senseless, cowardly manner with a machine gun 88 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 3: at close distance in his driveway. Of course, demanded justice. 89 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 3: Everybody they wanted to. They wanted to make sure they 90 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 3: knew that this could not happen in Denver or anywhere 91 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 3: else for that matter, without consequence. So yes, there was 92 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 3: a tremendous amount of pressure, but we felt very strongly 93 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 3: that we had to find these killers too. It's not 94 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: like we caved into pressure just to find these guys. 95 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: We wanted them badly, and the police department did an 96 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: amazing job, and then the FBI after them. But of course, 97 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 3: yes there was and you're right, there was a lag period, 98 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: if you will, a dead period of what the heck happened? 99 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: How are we going to figure this out? 100 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 11: I've heard some. 101 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 12: Various stormis among the neighbors that who love to hear 102 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 12: about the sound of tires screeching and leaving just when 103 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 12: it's down on the street. Guy said he heard it, 104 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 12: there was a guy and I find a nice suit. 105 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 12: I hear about the time Alan was shot. Of your 106 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 12: people have heard those same stories. 107 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 11: I have not heard anything about a man in a suit. However, 108 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 11: I haven't compared notes recently. 109 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: With all of the detectives, and there are various people 110 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: out doing things right now. So until they get together. 111 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 12: And compare notes, who won't have a complete picture of 112 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 12: what's available tonight. 113 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: That is Denver Deputy District Attorney Bill Buckley. 114 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: The investigation into Alan Berg's murder ramped up considerably when 115 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: federal law enforcement came in to share their ample resources. 116 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: But no one involved in this complex investigation could ever 117 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: have imagined that it would be an army truck robbery 118 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: in northern California that proved to be the turning point 119 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: in their case. Here's Peter Robinson, who was then an 120 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: assistant US attorney in California's Northern District. 121 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 7: Well, I think I heard about the crime on the news, actually, 122 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 7: and then I realized that an armored car robbery is 123 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 7: most likely to be a federal crime, and so I 124 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 7: would have some role in that, although at that time 125 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 7: I had no idea who had committed that crime. 126 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 13: But it was a very brazen one. 127 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 7: They held up a sign get out or die, and 128 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 7: they were blocking the traffic. Most of the people who 129 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 7: were driving on that road thought it was part of 130 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 7: some Hollywood movie, and so it was a rather spectacular crime. 131 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 7: The armored car was traveling very slowly because it was 132 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 7: a very steep hill, and they had to gear down 133 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 7: and all of a sudden, they pickup truck pulled in 134 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 7: front of it, forcing it to come to a stop. 135 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 7: Even at the slow speed it was going. There was 136 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 7: a pickup truck behind it went alongside it, and so 137 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 7: all the men jumped out at that point, pointed their 138 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 7: weapons and ordered the armored car guards to get out, 139 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 7: and within a few minutes had taken a lot of 140 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 7: money from the Brinks armored car and gotten away. 141 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: With all that loot. 142 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: The robbers walked away with three point six million. 143 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 7: Dollars and probably within a few days, I was contacted 144 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 7: by an FBI agent who's in charge of investigating that crime, 145 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 7: and he started briefing me on what they were doing, 146 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 7: and they started working on the case slowly and systematically, 147 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 7: learning more and more about this group known as the Order, 148 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 7: which I had never. 149 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 13: Heard of before this crime. I hadn't even heard actually 150 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 13: of the murder of Alan Byrd. 151 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: I'm filmmaker and journalist tal Pinschewski, and this is episode 152 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: seven cracking the case. The robbery appeared to have been 153 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: meticulously planned, but the team behind it had been sloppy 154 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: in their execution, leaving behind a firearm at the scene 155 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: of the crime. 156 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 7: That was The biggest break in the case was that 157 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 7: in the back of the armored car there was a 158 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 7: handgun that was left and it wasn't belonging to any 159 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 7: of the armored car personnel, so it was immediately seized 160 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 7: on as an. 161 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 13: Important piece of evidence. 162 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 7: Shortly thereafter, because of that gun, they traced it to 163 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 7: Andrew Barnhill. They started looking at him and also thinking 164 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 7: that since these men were from out of the area, 165 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 7: they probably stayed at motels, and they started canvassing the 166 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 7: motels and found in Santa Rosa that the men had 167 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 7: stayed at A number of them had stayed at a 168 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 7: local motel six or Super eight or something like that. 169 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 13: There was a. 170 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 7: Tracing of the car so that we found out that 171 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 7: they had been purchased in Santa Rosa recently for cash, 172 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 7: and so we've got descriptions of the people who had 173 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 7: purchased those cars, and little by little started building a 174 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 7: case and identifying individuals who were involved in the planning 175 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 7: and participation of the robbery, and with. 176 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: The resources of the FBI at their disposal, the details 177 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: of the case soon began to emerge. 178 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 13: Yeah. 179 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,440 Speaker 7: Well, the FBI immediately ran the serial number of the 180 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 7: gun into the National Firearms Registry and determined it had 181 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 7: been registered to an individual named Andrew Barnhill who had 182 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 7: purchased that gun in Bozeman, Montana. And so as a 183 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 7: result of that, they started running Andrew Barnhill. I think 184 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 7: they found that he had been arrested. I might be 185 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 7: wrong about this, but they'd been arrested. 186 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 13: Somewhere in Oregon with another individual, and. 187 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 7: Then that started to lead to at some point there 188 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 7: was already an open investigation of the Order up in Quarterlaine, Idaho, 189 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 7: and FBI agent named Wayne Mannis. 190 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 11: Well, my name is Wayne Mannis. 191 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 14: I was formerly an FBI agent. 192 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 11: For twenty eight years. 193 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 14: And I had extensive experience at various places throughout the 194 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:25,719 Speaker 14: United States, both in working as a special agent overtly 195 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 14: and then also covertly in undercovered capacities as well. 196 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 11: And in a course of. 197 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 14: Time I ended up in the northern part of Idaho 198 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 14: investigating a group that was known as the Order or 199 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 14: the British Wagon, and they were a domestic terrorist group 200 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 14: led by a man by the name of Robert Matthews. 201 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: If you're wondering why we Manus's voice is coming through 202 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: a phone line, the former federal agent is kind of 203 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: old school. At eighty five. Manus is retired and lives 204 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: on a modest, very isolated ranch in northern Idaho. He 205 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: doesn't use a computer or tablet and doesn't know how 206 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: zoom works, so the phone is typically the best way 207 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: to contact him. 208 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 11: And this group I was investigating. 209 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 14: Happened to be affiliated with. 210 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 11: Another group called the Arian Nation. An Arian Nations. 211 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 14: Had a yearly conference wherein they called in a large 212 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 14: number of like minded people affiliated with multitude of groups 213 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 14: across the country, including the q Kux Klan and the 214 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 14: Covenant Sword. 215 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 13: Arm of the Lord, and. 216 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 14: There's a lot of the Mountain Church of Johanktor, Michigan, 217 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 14: and the list goes on and on. But they had 218 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 14: their meeting in June of nineteen eighty four, and in 219 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 14: the course of that meeting, one of the. 220 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 3: People that I was. 221 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 14: Interested in taking a look at in regard to potential 222 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 14: criminal activity. 223 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 11: Was present at that meeting and gave a speech, And. 224 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 14: In the course of given the speech promoting his line 225 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 14: of thought, he said that he belonged to an organization 226 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 14: and that it was. 227 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 11: Taking a strong foothold. 228 00:14:55,800 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 14: And that they had eliminated already one of their Jewish enemies. 229 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: Wayne estimates about three hundred people were present at this meeting, 230 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: maybe more, maybe less, but none of them were sad 231 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: to hear this news. 232 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 14: Regardless of which group they might belong to. They were 233 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 14: all very much opposed to the Jews, and they were 234 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 14: all certainly anti Semitic, and they took great interest in 235 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 14: the fact that his fellow, Lewis Theme was his name, 236 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 14: was announcing to all of them that this sacred group 237 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 14: that he belonged to had taken wings and they had 238 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 14: already eliminated one of their Jewish counterparts. He did not 239 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 14: name who. 240 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: Was Lewis Beam didn't tell the crowd which of their 241 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: quote Jewish enemies had been eliminated. Wayne heard about the 242 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: speech somehow. 243 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 14: I can't really say about comfortable saying as to how 244 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 14: the information came to me about Lewis Beam and the 245 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 14: speech that he made, but I. 246 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 11: Can say that I had. 247 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 14: Legally and reliably acquired the information. 248 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: And with the information he had legally and reliably acquired, 249 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: Wayne Manace sprung into action. 250 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 11: That caused me to immediately. 251 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 14: Commence and investigating search as to who that might be. 252 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 11: And that's when. 253 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 14: I learned that a prominent Jewish radio talk show Post Endeavor, 254 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 14: Colorado named Alan Berg had been assassinated. 255 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 11: I brought in a. 256 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 14: Number of other agents and operaties of one type or 257 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 14: another to assist me in developing criminal cases relating. 258 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 11: To this secret organization, which. 259 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 14: I didn't even know the name at the time, but 260 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 14: as it turns out, it was a group that had 261 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 14: sprang from both the Area Nations and from the Covenant's 262 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 14: Sword En arm of the Lord, from the q pux 263 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 14: Klan and various other organizations to form a criminal enterprise 264 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 14: to basically overthrow the United States government. 265 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: Between Wayne Mannis's discovery while investigating white supremacist extremist organizations 266 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 1: in Idaho and Peter Robinson's investigation of the armored car 267 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: robbery in Yucaya, California, the Alan Bird case broke wide open, 268 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: and the truth behind this crime was stunning, with all 269 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: the evidence pointing to a nationalist militia that appeared to 270 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: have traveled across state lines with the explicit intention of 271 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: assassinating Alan Burke. 272 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 7: I think pretty soon after that armored car robbery, the 273 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 7: FBI was aware that there had been some other armored 274 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 7: car robberies up in the Seattle area and it was 275 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 7: maybe within a few days or a week that they'd 276 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 7: connected those and we realized that there was other crimes 277 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 7: committed by the same group, other armored car robberies, and 278 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 7: it's connected to this group that was headquartered in Sipping Northwest. 279 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 13: And at that point I can't remember even then if 280 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 13: we knew the name was the Order or just. 281 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 7: The There was a group of white men who wanted 282 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 7: to start their own whites only state up there in 283 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 7: the Pacific Northwest. 284 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: The Order. 285 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: Remember that name, it's going to come up again. 286 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 7: It was a complete shock to learn that there was 287 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 7: a group like that who were dedicated to a white 288 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 7: only state in the part of the United States, and 289 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 7: we're committing these serious crimes. 290 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 13: I had never even imagined that. 291 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: And soon these investigations started to merge. 292 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 7: Wayne Manus was working with an assistant US attorney in Idaho, 293 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 7: and the FBI agents were working with me in California. 294 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 7: But at a certain point I think that I'm not 295 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 7: sure exactly whether any of them had yet been arrested 296 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 7: on any charges, smaller charges, or we were trying to 297 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 7: figure out how this was going to work once we 298 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 7: got details. But at some point we decided we should 299 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 7: combine our forces and try to prosecute these people all 300 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 7: in one case. 301 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: Peter Robinson's education about the Order was swift and shocking. 302 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: Like many organizations of that ilk at the time, the 303 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: Order was well versed in the teachings of Richard Butler, 304 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: who is a frequent guest on Alan Bert's show, as 305 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: well as the Turner Divers, a piece of literature that 306 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: was quite popular among these groups. 307 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 14: And the group consisted of something over twenty individuals at 308 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 14: that particular time. 309 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 11: All of them were led by a man named Robert. 310 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 14: Matthews who lived in Medelane Falls, which is somewhat northwest 311 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 14: doug where I was located in Court Lane. And I 312 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 14: began to identify all the memories associated with that group, 313 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 14: and I and began to identify crimes that I felt 314 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 14: were associated or were crimes that we're actually conducted by 315 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 14: that group, bank robbery, counterfeiting. 316 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 11: Armored car robberies, and then some acts. 317 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 14: Of violss that we're not income producing, like bombing of 318 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 14: a synagogue and things such. 319 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 11: As that. 320 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 3: Soldiers in the core. What is the cause ra what 321 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 3: is the oath? 322 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: To deliver our people from the. 323 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: Jew This is a performance of a sermon conducted by 324 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: the Order that aired in a special produced by KAA 325 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: after Allenberg's murder. 326 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 2: What is the purpose the future of our children? 327 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 3: What is the method revolution? What is the goal victory? 328 00:21:54,480 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: What is the price? There? White man, rise and meet 329 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 3: your brother. 330 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: This wasn't just a group of like minded bigots waxing 331 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: on about how they wanted to take their country back. 332 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: This was a very sophisticated assemblage of individuals who meticulously 333 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: planned a series of serious crimes, all part of an 334 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: ultimate plan to overthrow the government of the United States 335 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: and install a new white supremacist order. 336 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 14: An interesting thing that we learned during the course of 337 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 14: this investigation is that two members and Breaks in San 338 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 14: Francisco had been recruited by Robert Matthews. To show you 339 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 14: how COMPLEXUS and this organization was, and these two members 340 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 14: of Brinks were cooperating, providing intelligence to Robert Matthews as 341 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 14: to his particular trucking, where it would be and how 342 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 14: it could be Robb's how much money it would have. 343 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: Through the collaborative efforts between local and federal authorities, alan 344 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: Berg's murder investigation expanded in a way no one could 345 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: have predicted. The Order had been identified as the group 346 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: behind his assassination, but what was the connective tissue between 347 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: alan Berg and the Order? Once the Order was identified, 348 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: it didn't take long to find the name that brought 349 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: everything together. 350 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 14: And one of the things I learned early on as 351 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 14: I began to identify members that I felt belonging to 352 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 14: the Order was one of the memories that I identified when 353 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 14: it was followed my name of David Lane. 354 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 11: And then then reviewing and looking at the. 355 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 14: Murder of ellen Berg and his curious broadcast that he had, 356 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 14: I discovered that Alan Burge had had a very controversial 357 00:23:53,720 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 14: conversation with Alan Berg on one of his radio shows 358 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 14: one night, and that. 359 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 11: Alan Berg so. 360 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 14: Humiliated David Lane in. 361 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 11: The course of that conversation that. 362 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 14: David Lane was offended and the entire organization to which 363 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 14: he belonged was offended, and alan Berg became a prime 364 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 14: the enemy of this organization. 365 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 11: Known as the Order. 366 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: If the name David Lane sounds familiar, it should. He 367 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: was specifically mentioned, albeit briefly, in episode four. 368 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 3: I can remember when when this first happened, even I mean, 369 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,119 Speaker 3: just as a person who used to listen to the 370 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 3: show regularly, I was thinking you know, I wonder if 371 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: it was David Lane and some of his cohorts. 372 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 1: This is David Heckenbach. At the time Allen's murder, he 373 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: was working for the District Attorney's office in Denver. 374 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 3: Everybody wanted answers and so but I honestly, all I 375 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: can tell you is that I personally remember that they 376 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 3: had very heated exchanges. I couldn't tell you any of 377 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: the specific words. It was forty over forty years ago, 378 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: but David Lane's name was known to me only as 379 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: a listener to the ilan Berg Show on the radio. 380 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 13: It was David Lane. 381 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 7: I think who who was from Colorado? Who was the 382 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 7: one that was the most upset? And I think it 383 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 7: was the interview with Colonel Jack Moore that led to 384 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 7: him being upset. 385 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 9: I've been on programs like this many many times before, 386 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 9: and I've run into tomos like you that interrupted and 387 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 9: tried about No. 388 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 10: Jack, you have barely been interrupted all bar Jack, So 389 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 10: don't give me that don't give me that guard. But 390 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 10: you haven't been interrupted at all. 391 00:25:58,720 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 13: Man. 392 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 6: Let me give ahead. 393 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 3: Jack. 394 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: This is the infamous on air exchange alan Berg had 395 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: with Colonel Jack Moore and Reverend Pete Peters in early 396 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, the fiery argument that ended abruptly and 397 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: was so integral to the murder investigation that KOA reporter 398 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 1: Lori Cantillo actually tracked down Peters in order to get 399 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: a recording of the interview. 400 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 7: The FBI is. 401 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 15: Taking a hard look at a talk show Berg did 402 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 15: the night of February thirteenth, nineteen eighty four. Burg arranged 403 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 15: to have as his guest the Reverend Pete Peters and 404 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 15: Gordon Jack Moore of the Christian Patriots Defense League. Peters 405 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 15: had arranged for More to speak at his Laporte Church 406 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 15: of Christ a few days earlier in a talk that 407 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 15: made headlines because of Moore's views that Jews are conspiring 408 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 15: to take over the world through communism, and that's how 409 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 15: Berg and Moore opened the show. 410 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 7: So they put him on their enemies list for that. 411 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 7: It seemed like a pretty minor thing to kill somebody for. 412 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 7: But anyway, I didn't really know Alan Berg or what 413 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 7: he was like on the radio, why these guys fixated 414 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 7: on him, but they did. They also were wanting to 415 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 7: kill this guy, Morris des who was suing the klu 416 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 7: Klux Klan and probably would have done that if he 417 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 7: lived a little closer to them. So it was really 418 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 7: kind of an irrational thing that I could see that 419 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 7: led them to murder alan Berg, and I just felt 420 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 7: very badly for him and his family for having been 421 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 7: killed for just expressing his views. 422 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: As it turns out, alan Berg wasn't the only person 423 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: who died at the hands of the Order. 424 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 14: Bob Matthews was with his group was responsible for the 425 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 14: assassination of Alen Burgh, the assassination of another individual that 426 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 14: they feared might be co reading with me an invision 427 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 14: by name of Walter West. 428 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 7: And they came to suspect that this one guy, Walter West, 429 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 7: was talking too much, not to law enforcement, but just 430 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 7: blabbing in the community. I think one of the members 431 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 7: of the Order knew his wife, and the wife told 432 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 7: him things that the member of the Order thought that 433 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 7: she should never have been told. 434 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 14: Walter West also had a knowledge as to their counterfeiting 435 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 14: activities because he was a member of the Area Nations 436 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 14: and that's where the counterfeiting press was located when they 437 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 14: did their first counterfeiting. Ultimately, they became more professional and 438 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 14: they had a professional counterfeitter that produced forged identifications and 439 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 14: forged US currency in a very very professional manner. But 440 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 14: initially Walter West had that and had that information, and 441 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 14: they did assassinate Alter. 442 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 7: So they lured him out into the woods and then 443 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 7: Richard Kemp struck him with a hammer on the head, 444 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 7: and ultimately they killed him in the woods and buried him. 445 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 14: You might say the investigation took a very knowledgeable turn. 446 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 11: Through the use of informants and. 447 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: With members of the Order starting to speak more freely 448 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: about their crimes, finding and interviewing these snitches got easier 449 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: once investigators knew where to look. 450 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 14: Some information regarding inform my coverage, of course, I won't 451 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 14: address I just I won't say how many or where 452 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 14: they were located, more capacity they worked. 453 00:29:53,080 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 11: I won't address that now or at any time. Can say, 454 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 11: based upon public information. 455 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 14: That it came forth subsequently in the course of criminal trials, that. 456 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 11: There was at an individual. 457 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 14: By the name of Tom Martinez, and Martinez belonged to 458 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 14: an organization known as the National Alliance. He was living 459 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 14: in Pennsylvania and became known to. 460 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 11: The leader of the Order, Robert Matthews, and was very 461 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 11: much life by Robert. 462 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 14: Matthews, and was invited into the organization of the Order 463 00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 14: and was provided with counterfeit money, which, in the course 464 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 14: of marpton Is passing his counterfeit money, he was caught 465 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 14: and arrested by the Secret Service, and. 466 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 11: While being interviewed by the. 467 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 14: Secret Service agent, it became obvious to them. 468 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 16: That he was affiliated with some organization that he feared 469 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 16: more than. 470 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 14: Being convicted of the crime of passing consh of money. 471 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: David Heckenbach was sent to talk with Martinez. 472 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: Part of my job was also to go interview some 473 00:31:50,680 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: of the I call them snitches, informants, people who raided, 474 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 3: who were not directly involved in the shooting, who were 475 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: not there when the trigger was pulled, but who were 476 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 3: members of the Order, who knew about it and who 477 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 3: were being prosecuted, either for counterfeiting or for robbery of 478 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 3: an armored car, had traded there some information for some 479 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: considerations in their sentences, and I went up and I 480 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 3: spoke to those individuals as well up in the federal 481 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 3: pen up in Hinckley. Hinckley is a formidable facility, not 482 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 3: a place I would want to be or anybody else 483 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 3: I would imagine. And one of the things, several things 484 00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 3: stand out. One is that the the mosquitoes were the 485 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 3: size of starlings. I mean they were huge. And the 486 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 3: biggest claim to fame that Hinckley, Minnesota has is the 487 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 3: Great Hinckley Fire, which is depicted on a mural in 488 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 3: the one and only restaurant in the middle of town. 489 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 3: And this fellow that we interviewed was he tried to 490 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: actually be a good host, if that makes sense. He 491 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: had access to some tasters choice instant coffee, and to him, 492 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 3: that was offering the best that he could offer us. 493 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: It would be like going to somebody else's mansion and 494 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 3: being offered caviaar For a prisoner in Hinckley. The Hinckley 495 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 3: Facility to offer us some of his instant coffee was 496 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 3: apparently a pretty big deal for this guy at the 497 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 3: In the end, he was a snitch. He had been 498 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 3: charged with counterfeiting. They had him dead to rights, and 499 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 3: he flipped on his fellow Order members in exchange for 500 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 3: some sentenced concessions on his counterfeiting charge. He was not 501 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 3: a good guy. 502 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 1: By this point. Members of the Order, and especially their 503 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: leader Robert Matthews, were on the run. 504 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,359 Speaker 7: The FBI was very anxious to find out where he 505 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 7: was and where some of these guys were and to 506 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 7: arrest them because it seemed like they were very dangerous 507 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,439 Speaker 7: at one point and desperate as they were on the run, 508 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,320 Speaker 7: and particularly to find Robert Matthews became the highest priority 509 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 7: for the FBI in the country, and so we made 510 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 7: an agreement with one of the lesser involved people in 511 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 7: the order named Bill Soderquist, who was from Salinas, California, 512 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 7: and I was integally involved in that because we decided 513 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 7: to subpoena Soderquist to the federal grand jury in San Francisco. 514 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 7: Bill Soderquist was young, He was soft spoken, kind of blonde, 515 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 7: stocky guy. He was scared, I think, but really he 516 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 7: didn't show any signs of being a racist or any 517 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 7: other views of anti Semitic or anything like that. He 518 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 7: looked like a recent high school graduate who was kind 519 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 7: of a nerd, but very soft spoken and not a 520 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 7: very assertive period did not appear to be a very 521 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 7: strong individual. I think the FBI was doing a lot 522 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 7: of surveillance. I think through phone records they identified him 523 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 7: as one of the members of the group, and they 524 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 7: started surveilling his house, in his places where he might 525 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,279 Speaker 7: fruquent and also Richard Kemp, who is his friend, who 526 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 7: is also from Sinis. 527 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 13: We didn't have any charge at the time. 528 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 7: We just subpoened him to come as a witness before 529 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,320 Speaker 7: the Grain jury. But had he refused to testify or lied, 530 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 7: we probably would have charged him with conspiracy of the 531 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 7: armored car robbery, at least at that stage, because we 532 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,439 Speaker 7: had information that he was one of the people who 533 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 7: participated in that. 534 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 13: If you're ready to tell us. 535 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 7: Everything, including where Bob Matthews can be found, will give 536 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 7: you immunity and you won't be prosecuted for any of 537 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 7: this as long as you testify truthfully. 538 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 13: And he and his lawyers. 539 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 7: Were discussing privately, you know, for a while, himming and hawing, 540 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,680 Speaker 7: and finally I told him, you got fifteen minutes to 541 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 7: decide this. You know, be able to take this. In 542 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 7: fifteen minutes, you're going to get prosecuted yourself. And they 543 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 7: decided to do it. And so the FBI agens debriefed 544 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 7: him for hours and hours, and that information he provided 545 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 7: them led to them knowing that Robert Matthews was on 546 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 7: would be Island. 547 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: With the Order in its configuration now identified, and some 548 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: members of the organization flipped his informants. The Allenberg murder 549 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:10,799 Speaker 1: investigation was swiftly approaching its natural conclusion, but things would 550 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: take a startling turn as authorities closed in on this 551 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: white supremacist militia, culminating in a shocking exchange with Robert 552 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: Matthews at Whitby Island and an excruciating decision by the 553 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: Denver District Attorney's office. All that on the next episode 554 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: of live Wire, the Loud Life and Shocking Murder of 555 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: Alan Burgh. Live Wire is a production of iHeart Podcasts 556 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: and Modulator Media. For more podcasts from iHeart Podcasts, visit 557 00:37:42,400 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.