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Speaker 1: The con woman's likability is the single most important tool.

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Speaker 1: She has sharp as a chef's knife and fake as

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Speaker 1: a theater mask. Without her likability, she would be nothing.

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Speaker 1: If you like her, and you will like her, then

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Speaker 1: her work will be so much easier. It'll all be

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Speaker 1: over quickly. You'll hardly feel a thing that is. Award

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Speaker 1: winning author Tory Telfer reading an excerpt from her latest book,

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Speaker 1: Confident Women, about the greatest female con artists of all time.

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Speaker 1: She's the perfect person to talk to about the greatest

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Speaker 1: female con artist I ever met and got scamped by.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Walton, and this is a bonus episode of

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Speaker 1: Queen of the Con where I interview a woman who

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Speaker 1: has literally spent years researching and writing about the mayor

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Speaker 1: Smith's of the world. This is episode ten, Anatomy of

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Speaker 1: a Con. Tori, thank you so much for joining us today.

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Speaker 1: I really, really, really enjoyed your book. I finished it

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Speaker 1: in two days and it was just a rip roaring

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Speaker 1: good time, which is what my Amazon review said. Thank you, congratulations.

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Speaker 1: Just what an amazing what an amazing tale of dozens

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Speaker 1: of dozens of dozens of different Cohn women throughout history. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. So your book focuses on

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Speaker 1: female con artists. Is there a difference between male and

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Speaker 1: female con artists or are all con artists the same

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Speaker 1: on a macro level. I believe all con artists are

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Speaker 1: kind of doing the same thing. But there is one

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Speaker 1: very notable difference between male and female con artists, which

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Speaker 1: is the stereotypes they use, the cliches that they use

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Speaker 1: to get you. So male con artists are more likely

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Speaker 1: to pretend to be a doctor or a lawyer or

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Speaker 1: important busines this man, you know something. Very male female

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Speaker 1: con artists know that you're going to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit suspicious of a female who's trying to sell you

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Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bridge because women don't. Women aren't in construction,

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Speaker 1: so she so she's more likely to be a a

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Speaker 1: seer or a you know, a wounded mother or a

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Speaker 1: grieving widow. Female con artists are are definitely not afraid

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Speaker 1: of sexist stereotypes, and they'll lean into them to get

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Speaker 1: what they want. My book, Confident Women is about con

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Speaker 1: women throughout the ages, you know, from the Civil War

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Speaker 1: to the court of Marie Internette to today. Some of

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Speaker 1: these women are still in prison today and I've divided

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Speaker 1: it into four sections, so it's kind of four different

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Speaker 1: types of con women, from the con women who are

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Speaker 1: really obsessed with money to the con women who are

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Speaker 1: really obsessed with disguises, and all shades in between. I

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Speaker 1: do think my con artist Mayor Smith, kind of borrows

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Speaker 1: from every single category. It sounds like, how did you

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Speaker 1: get into a con artistry? Were you a victim? Ever? No,

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Speaker 1: of nothing more than a few minor cons. You know,

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Speaker 1: the type we all experience, the roommate who doesn't do X,

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Speaker 1: Y and Z, or the person on the street who

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Speaker 1: says they need money for this, but it's for that. No,

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Speaker 1: I've never been like a capital of the victim. I

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Speaker 1: came at it through writing about female criminals. My first

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Speaker 1: book was about female serial killers, so I was looking

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Speaker 1: around for something a little later. But as you know, well,

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Speaker 1: con artists are not as light as people think they are. Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like all fun and games at first, and then

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Speaker 1: it gets really dark. Yeah, it's all funny games until

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Speaker 1: it happens to you. You know, your book brought me

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Speaker 1: so much comfort in a strange way. After I realized

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Speaker 1: I was conned, I felt so alone, like I'm the

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Speaker 1: only one that's ever happened to you. But then I

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Speaker 1: started finding a bunch of other victims of my con artists,

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Speaker 1: and the read your book, and I realized that being

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Speaker 1: a con artist is a lot of people's full time profession.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was Mayor Smith's full time profession. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea. Con artists are literally everywhere, but until

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Speaker 1: one cons you, you have no idea. You just have

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Speaker 1: no idea. I like the excerpt you read from your book,

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Speaker 1: the con woman's likability is the single most important tool

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Speaker 1: she has. As soon as I read that, I was like, yes, yes, Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was Mayor. She was so likable, she was so lovable,

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Speaker 1: and that's how she got deep into her victims lives

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Speaker 1: to condemn. And that's something you found again and again

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Speaker 1: and again in your book. You gotta fall in like

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Speaker 1: with them immediately, immediately, because if they're not likable, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't personally like them, then it becomes clear

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Speaker 1: how outrageous their demands are, or the cracks in their

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Speaker 1: story become so apparent. I mean, it's like we would

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Speaker 1: do a lot of things for our friends, right If

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Speaker 1: a friend asked to borrow a cup of sugar, borrow

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Speaker 1: five dollars. That's not weird. If a total stranger on

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Speaker 1: the street asks those same thing, things were going to

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Speaker 1: be wary. So the con woman has to become our

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Speaker 1: friend really fast. And yeah, like all these women in

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Speaker 1: my book are so good at socializing, it's really stunning. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's skilled, a skilled socialize her. She knows how to

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Speaker 1: get in deep and get in quick and make make

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Speaker 1: you like her. That's the common thread. I've spoken to

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Speaker 1: my gosh, dozens of victims of Mayor Smith, and all

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Speaker 1: of them say the same thing. They liked her immediately. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not surprised. What is the psychological profile of a

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Speaker 1: con what motivates them, what drives them? I think con

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Speaker 1: artists have a lot of different things going on, but

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Speaker 1: if I was gonna find one or two commonalities, money

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Speaker 1: is a huge one. It's not that romantic, but it

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Speaker 1: is such a consistent presence in these stories. But I

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Speaker 1: think another commonality is power, you know, power over the victims,

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Speaker 1: over their own narrative. And actually that's something I saw

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Speaker 1: in serial killers too. It's very different crimes, but the

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Speaker 1: the criminal comes down to having this desire for power

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Speaker 1: over other people. It's funny, you say that it kind

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Speaker 1: of reminds me, And don't hate me for saying this.

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Speaker 1: Rape rape is not really about sex most times exactly,

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Speaker 1: It's about power, and it's also about having instilling fear

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Speaker 1: in someone's eyes and getting off on that fear. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that crimes, or at least these particularly violent

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Speaker 1: or just major crimes, are often not about what they

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Speaker 1: sound like on the surface, which ties into a belief

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Speaker 1: I held for like ten years now, especially living in

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Speaker 1: this town, Los Angeles. Nothing is what it appears to be.

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Speaker 1: Looks are deceiving. Things look one way when really it's

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Speaker 1: the other way, But you have no idea until you're

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Speaker 1: into it. One of my favorite movies of all time

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Speaker 1: is Dirty Rotten Scoundrels. Have you seen that movie a

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Speaker 1: long time ago? So don't quiz me on it. Steve

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Speaker 1: Martin and Michael Caine. It's about, you know, con women

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Speaker 1: and con men. On the French Riviera. I was showing

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Speaker 1: Nicolas property in Florida. He goes, if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: invest sixteen million bucks, I want to do with someplace? Now,

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Speaker 1: I say, like, we're He goes, how about Australia and

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Speaker 1: then he hits me boom, or Australia. What are you

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Speaker 1: kidding me? We gotta go meet Mr Australia himself. I

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Speaker 1: say so, he goes why not? I go why up?

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Speaker 1: Pretty soon the whole group goes, why so? Here we are.

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Speaker 1: And never for a second did I think any of

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Speaker 1: those gargantu and elaborate, unbelievable cons featured in the movie

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Speaker 1: were based on real stories. But your book is chalk

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Speaker 1: full of stories like that, and each con is more

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Speaker 1: elaborate and magnificent than the one before. The woman pretending

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Speaker 1: to be Maria Antoinette, I'd never heard this story before

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Speaker 1: until I read your book. She scams the jeweler out

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Speaker 1: of a million dollar diamond necklace, essentially using elaborate impersonations

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Speaker 1: and really forged letters. Right. That was Mayor Smith's go

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Speaker 1: to the modern day equivalent of forged letters, forged emails

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Speaker 1: to scam people. How is that story not better known?

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Speaker 1: How have I never you know? I'm an educated guy,

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Speaker 1: I am well read. I've never heard that story before.

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Speaker 1: Why is it not more known? Why is it not

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Speaker 1: like a big Hollywood movie about the Marie Antoinette necklace scam?

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Speaker 1: I think there are two reasons. One is probably just

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Speaker 1: plain old fashioned sexism. We do know the stories of

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Speaker 1: con men a lot better. Ponzi made off ABC, Nail,

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Speaker 1: the guy who sold the Brooklyn Bridge twice. These are

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Speaker 1: just more famous than the con women's stories. But in

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Speaker 1: terms of this specific con woman, she was really a nobody.

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Speaker 1: She was an orphan, she was poor, she was not

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Speaker 1: very proper, and I think that historians with a capital

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Speaker 1: H looked down on her story for a very long

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Speaker 1: time and we're like, oh, that can't possibly be um

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Speaker 1: worthy of examining. But as a matter of fact, she

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Speaker 1: kind of. She was one of the one of the

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Speaker 1: things that kicked off the French Revolution. Actually, my gosh,

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Speaker 1: just such a compelling story, and it reminded me of

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Speaker 1: Mayor because, like you said, she she came from nowhere.

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Speaker 1: She was poor, but through fake emails and fake text

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Speaker 1: messages and impersonating different people, she could appear to be

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Speaker 1: this well connected woman dating a politician, an Irish Heiri's

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Speaker 1: worth millions. All of these these things came to life

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Speaker 1: with Mayor when you'd read emails addressed to her. Her

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Speaker 1: best friend was Jennifer Aniston. Of course, Jennifer Aniston would

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Speaker 1: text and email her all the time, and she would

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Speaker 1: show the victim. Look, Jennifer Aniston just texted me this,

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Speaker 1: just email me this. You know, So there's a fake

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt in my book. So this is There are

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Speaker 1: so many parallels here, Yes, yes, yes, yes. Psychic Rose

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Speaker 1: Marx is another con artists you profile in your book.

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Speaker 1: She scams, I mean, she scams a bunch of people,

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Speaker 1: but really her best known victim is as an author

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Speaker 1: ju Devereaux. She scams Jude out of twenty million dollars

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Speaker 1: using a thousand different confidence tricks and emotional manipulations over

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Speaker 1: the course of years. In my estimation, Rose Marx is

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Speaker 1: what Mayor Smith was working towards, but she never found

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Speaker 1: such a wealthy client. Mayor ended up scamming tens of

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Speaker 1: thousands from a bunch of different clients and that's all

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Speaker 1: they could afford to pay. But I guess she was

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Speaker 1: looking for a big fish like Rose Mars found. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think Rose Marks really lucked out when it comes

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Speaker 1: to being a con artist. There can't be that many,

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Speaker 1: you know, extremely successful millionaires who happened to be in

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Speaker 1: a vulnerable position when the con artists comes around. I mean,

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Speaker 1: for this poor author Jude Devereaux. It was just like

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Speaker 1: a horrifically perfect situation. When she met the con woman.

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Speaker 1: She was having marriage troubles, she couldn't have a kid,

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Speaker 1: you know, just everything in her life was upset, and

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Speaker 1: so Rosemar swooped in and was able to maintain this

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Speaker 1: decades long relationship. But I think she kind of just

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Speaker 1: got lucky, like there probably aren't too many people like

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Speaker 1: that out there for the people like Mayor Smith to find. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but she did do damage, i'll reveal to listeners now

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Speaker 1: is something that's not in any of the podcast, so

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Speaker 1: we didn't cover because we never got an actual interview

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Speaker 1: from this victim who Mayor scammed as a psychic. So

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Speaker 1: this victim came to see Mayor as a psychic and

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Speaker 1: she ended up testifying against her. You'll hear her in

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Speaker 1: episode eight. She testifies on the stand against her. She

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Speaker 1: found a Mayor as a psychic, and then Mayor quickly

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Speaker 1: convinced her, Oh, by the way, I'm also a psychologist

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Speaker 1: IV a degree in psychology, so i also offer life coaching.

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Speaker 1: So she started offering this woman life coaching and then

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Speaker 1: quickly impersonated the woman confided in her I'm in love

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Speaker 1: with this guy, you know, and think to yourself, how

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Speaker 1: many times have you been in love with someone you

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Speaker 1: would move heaven and earth to get them right. So

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Speaker 1: Mayor sees is on that she starts impersonating the guy

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Speaker 1: and she tells the victim, Oh, by the way, the

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Speaker 1: guy you're in love with, he's also taking life coaching

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Speaker 1: for me. And I know this is improper, but I

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Speaker 1: can broke her a romance, you know, if you want

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Speaker 1: me to. It's just gonna take so many more life

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Speaker 1: coaching sessions, you know. So over the course of a year,

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Speaker 1: this victim shells out dollars ten dollars because she thinks,

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Speaker 1: you know, and every time she comes to a life

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Speaker 1: coaching Mayor would show her a text. Oh look at

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Speaker 1: what Jesse. Jesse was the guy's name. Look at what

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Speaker 1: Jesse just texted me. He's thinking about you. He's going

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Speaker 1: to ask you out. So it wasn't until a year

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Speaker 1: into it the woman finally realized Jesse wasn't taking life

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Speaker 1: coaching from her, like there was all a scam to

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Speaker 1: shake money out of her, and she was just devastated.

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Speaker 1: You know, Oh that that's got hurt so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the audacity to pull off something like that

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Speaker 1: is just mind blowing to me. And it's heartless. You

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Speaker 1: really can't have any feeling or for another human being

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Speaker 1: to impersonate the one they're in love with and then

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Speaker 1: try to trick them out of money. No, most of

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Speaker 1: these con women are incredibly selfish, you know. I would

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Speaker 1: say maybe after their likability, that's the most notable thing

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Speaker 1: about them. I mean, because the likability is all fake,

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Speaker 1: oh totally, And they don't like anyone except themselves exactly,

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Speaker 1: and and and who they present themselves to be isn't real.

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Speaker 1: So what you're liking as a victim, because you know,

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Speaker 1: she was my best friend for four years. I loved her,

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Speaker 1: she was like a sister. But all of that was

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Speaker 1: fake and I never really knew the real her, the

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Speaker 1: real her, she's a con woman who scammed victims all

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Speaker 1: over the world. I never knew that was the real her.

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Speaker 1: The woman that I saw was a damsel in distress

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Speaker 1: and Irish heiress who am helping get her inheritance. I

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Speaker 1: even feel stupid saying that out loud, but but I

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Speaker 1: fell for it. I fell for it, hook line and sinker. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're not alone, As you know, well, so

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Speaker 1: many victims of con artists don't come forward because they

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Speaker 1: do feel so gullible and ashamed. Very true. And I've

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Speaker 1: had so many arguments with victims on the phone because

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Speaker 1: they would call me victims of my can artists and

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Speaker 1: they tell me the story. There were a couple real

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Speaker 1: estate investors in New York that she scammed out a

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Speaker 1: sixty grand because she tricked them into believing her daughter

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Speaker 1: had cancer and needed emergency surgery and insurance didn't cover it,

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Speaker 1: and she needed sixty dollars quick. There's always an element

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Speaker 1: of I need this quick because she's gonna die. So

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Speaker 1: they wired her sixty grand. Oh, there's always wires, always wired.

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Speaker 1: Money is always being wired, always wires. Yeah, that's yeah.

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Speaker 1: So when someone asks you for a wire, make sure

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Speaker 1: you're not getting calm, because that's like a red flag, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Near the end of my investigation, after police arrested Mayor,

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Speaker 1: these New York real estate guys called me up and

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Speaker 1: they're like, hey, we want to pay you, we want

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Speaker 1: to reward you for what you've done, we want to

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Speaker 1: help you. And I'm like, I don't want your money, guy,

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Speaker 1: I want you to go to police and file a

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Speaker 1: report so she can get arrested in New York. That

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Speaker 1: would help me, Can you do that? But they didn't

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Speaker 1: want to because they're embarrassed. They fell for it, so

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Speaker 1: sante times. She was kind of like Mayor Smith on steroids. Right.

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Speaker 1: She would introduce her husband Kenneth, as an ambassador, a

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Speaker 1: ploy that got them into a lot of important places

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Speaker 1: like the White House during the Ford administration. She kind

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Speaker 1: of looked a little bit like Elizabeth Taylor if you squinted,

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Speaker 1: so she would impersonate Elizabeth Taylor, and her last con

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Speaker 1: lead to murder essentially right, because she didn't start out

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Speaker 1: a murderer. She tried to scam this New York socialite

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Speaker 1: out of her seven point seven million dollar apartment, and

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Speaker 1: similar to Mayor Mayor tried to scam Bob, the Newport

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Speaker 1: Beach engineer out of his too homes. She tried to

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Speaker 1: trick him into adding her name to the title of

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Speaker 1: his two homes because she was going to buy this

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Speaker 1: fifteen million dollar Newport Beach home with her an inheritance

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Speaker 1: that was coming any day they got a realtor. She

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Speaker 1: looked at the house a bunch of times. Bob brought

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Speaker 1: his kids, one of the last times to pick out

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Speaker 1: their bedroom. She was going to buy one of the

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Speaker 1: kids a Lamborghini like the kids loved her, and she

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Speaker 1: put in an offer on the house. You know, as

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Speaker 1: long as it's on paper, you can do anything right.

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Speaker 1: And con artists know this. But what differentiates the Mayor

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Speaker 1: Smith from Sante Climes is Mayor didn't actually kill anyone yet,

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Speaker 1: but Sante did. Why did Sante kill that woman? Well,

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Speaker 1: Santa actually killed more than one person, or rather had

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Speaker 1: her son do it. This wealthy woman was her third victim,

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Speaker 1: and she I think she's an example of what happens

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Speaker 1: when a con artist. Well let me let me rephrase. Maybe.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that every con artist is capable of murder.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a huge that's a very different crime.

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Speaker 1: But in this case, things escalated and she got in

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Speaker 1: so deep, and she was so desperate for money, and

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Speaker 1: she did a million cons, but none of them were

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Speaker 1: quite working out. I don't know if Mayor ever reached

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Speaker 1: that point where she had her cons bubbling, but the

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Speaker 1: money wasn't quite coming in, and so that's on things

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Speaker 1: escalated to murder because it was out of desperation or

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Speaker 1: and in one murder no, two murders out of a

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Speaker 1: fear that the victim would talk. So it was a

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Speaker 1: very like end of the road type scenario for her.

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Speaker 1: If that makes sense, It does make sense. And I

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Speaker 1: used to think Mayor Smith was not capable of murder,

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Speaker 1: but I have since reevaluated because for the first time

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Speaker 1: ever we spoke to her daughter. Her daughter ended up

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Speaker 1: testifying against her during the trial, and her daughter wove

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Speaker 1: this tail of being raised by a con artist her daughter.

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Speaker 1: She was having her daughter forged signatures on hundreds of

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Speaker 1: mortgage documents. You know, she got away with like half

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Speaker 1: a million dollars from Northern Ireland, and her daughter, as

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Speaker 1: a child, unknowingly helped her do that. So someone tipped

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Speaker 1: Mayor off that police in Northern Ireland are investigating her,

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Speaker 1: so they had to get out of there quick. And

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Speaker 1: while they're packing up Mayor's husband at the time, Stephen Smith,

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Speaker 1: he had like seventeen greyhounds. He was a greyhound racer,

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Speaker 1: so they didn't have time to rehome them. So Mayor

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Speaker 1: made him put down the seventeen greyhounds. Wow, oh no, yeah,

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Speaker 1: killed seventeen dogs without even thinking about it. Oh, she's

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Speaker 1: Cruella de Ville she is, and she wore them back

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Speaker 1: to Tennessee. Kidding, we don't know that. I don't think

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Speaker 1: she did m But after I heard that story, and

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Speaker 1: I'm a dog owner, I take it you're a dog owner.

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Speaker 1: I'm not, but a dog lover, a dog's sympathizer. Yes,

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Speaker 1: if she has the cold bloodedness to do that, she

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Speaker 1: could kill. She could kill without even a piece of

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Speaker 1: remorse or guilt. She could kill. Yeah. Yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: shows some real narcissism. You know, dogs are in my way.

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Speaker 1: Dogs get killed this story. I mean, I am a

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Speaker 1: little bit jealous. I didn't hear about it for my book.

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Speaker 1: It's so intense. It's as if con artist Mayor Smith

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Speaker 1: read your book and chose different elements from all the

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Speaker 1: female con artists you profiled to create her own con

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Speaker 1: artists self. She mixes and matches from all the great

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Speaker 1: cons in your book, which is just amazing. But I

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Speaker 1: know that's impossible because your book only came out this

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Speaker 1: year and she's been conning since she was a little girl. Yes,

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Speaker 1: con artists are very intelligent people, that's a fair statement.

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Speaker 1: But for being so intelligent, they make a lot of

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Speaker 1: stupid mistakes that ultimately lead to their demise. Why is

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Speaker 1: that my con artist gave me her email password. At

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Speaker 1: one point in our relationship two years in, she's stuck

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Speaker 1: on the highway in traffic. She thinks she can't get

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Speaker 1: into her email account from her phone. She thinks she's hacked.

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Speaker 1: She calls me, I'm at work. I got hacked. I

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Speaker 1: got hacked. So she asked me to log in and

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Speaker 1: make sure her email account was still okay. So I did,

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Speaker 1: and it was, and I forgot the whole thing. Ever

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Speaker 1: happened until a few months after I got condom like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I have her email password. Did it

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Speaker 1: still work? Yes? Oh, I logged into her account. I

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Speaker 1: found twenty three other aliases. I found a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other victims. She was scamming. She had a profile on

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Speaker 1: sugar Daddy for me dot com men were paying her

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Speaker 1: monthly fee for sex. Then she was blackmailing them to

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Speaker 1: go to their wives when they wanted to end the

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Speaker 1: payment arrangement. Another classic con. Yes, but I wasn't the

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Speaker 1: only one. She gave her email password too. She gave

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Speaker 1: it to you, another victim she was scamming. When the

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Speaker 1: victim was helping her set up an Amazon firestick so

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Speaker 1: it's like this, she's so smart and yet so dumb.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's stemming from the narcissism we keep talking about,

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Speaker 1: where it's like they assume everyone else is dumb or

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Speaker 1: just not at their level. So it's like, it's no

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Speaker 1: big deal to give you my email password because you're

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Speaker 1: not going to create aliases and you don't know how

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Speaker 1: I work. You know, it seems to me to be

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Speaker 1: a very narcissistic move, like, sure, you can go ahead

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Speaker 1: and have my password. I don't care, you'll never catch me. Ironically,

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Speaker 1: you did catch her. I do think it's a case of, like,

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Speaker 1: you know that famous statement, how does it go? Does

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Speaker 1: the lion ever waste time thinking about what the lambs

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00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 1: are doing? So we're all like sheep to her, and

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00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: she's the lion thinking, oh, I can give them my password.

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Speaker 1: I can give them ammunition against me, but they'll never

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Speaker 1: use it because they're too stupid. You know, she's overly

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Speaker 1: confident in that case. Yeah, I think that makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of sense. Another thing she did that ultimately led

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Speaker 1: to her demise is while she was dating her Newport

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Speaker 1: Beach victim Bob, she texted me a picture of him

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Speaker 1: and asked me what I thought of him, and I said, oh,

386
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Speaker 1: he's a good looking guy. I think he's great, you know,

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Speaker 1: go for it because we were best friends. But I

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Speaker 1: ended up using that very picture of Bob and I

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Speaker 1: started my blog with I know his name is Bob,

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Speaker 1: I know he's an engineer Newport Beach, and I know

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Speaker 1: maryor Smith is scamming him. And I didn't really believe

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Speaker 1: for a second that Bob would actually find my blog,

393
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Speaker 1: but by god, he did. His ex wife found it

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Speaker 1: and sent it to him, and then he ended up

395
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Speaker 1: dumping mare. And you know, she was this close. She

396
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Speaker 1: had drawn up the paperwork for him to add her

397
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Speaker 1: name to the titles of his two Newport Beach homes

398
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Speaker 1: because she put an offer on this fifteen million dollar

399
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Speaker 1: home she's gonna buy, and it comes so close. He

400
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: found it in the nick of time. Your blog saved him,

401
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: it did, but that's her fault. Like if I didn't

402
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: have that picture of him, there was no way if

403
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 1: I started the blog without the picture, you know, it

404
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't resonate, no one would know who I'm talking about.

405
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Speaker 1: But his ex wife googled her, found his picture, found

406
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Speaker 1: my blog, and realized she's a con artist, but she

407
00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: would get off on that. She would have barbecues and

408
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: dinner parties with multiple victims she's scamming, and multiple victims.

409
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Speaker 1: She's told different stories too, So at any point one

410
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Speaker 1: of us could have said something where the stories didn't

411
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: matched up and out at her, but we never did.

412
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Speaker 1: But she must have got off on that razor thin

413
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Speaker 1: like I can get caught and minute. Yeah, that sounds

414
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: like some very classic thrill seeking behavior. You know, like

415
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: maybe she unconsciously or subconsciously wanted to increase the stakes

416
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Speaker 1: for herself. She wanted to flirt with getting caught, increase

417
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Speaker 1: the danger, and so she gave you passwords and pictures

418
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Speaker 1: just to like up the stakes, right, will this be

419
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Speaker 1: enough for them to catch me or not? It's weird,

420
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: It's super weird. What is your takeaway? You've studied con

421
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: artists for years and you put a ton of research

422
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Speaker 1: into your book, Confident Women, which most people don't know.

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Speaker 1: And I mentioned this in my podcast, but we can

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Speaker 1: repeat it here. Con artist is short for confidence artist. Yes,

425
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 1: very few people know that. I didn't know it myself

426
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: before I started my book. I felt like I was

427
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: born knowing it at this point because they and still

428
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 1: confidence in their victims, in them to scam them, and

429
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: they're also very confident people themselves. Absolutely, But do you

430
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: believe con artists are born or are a maid? Oh?

431
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: I think it's a little of both. But I will

432
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: say many of the women in my book, I do

433
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: think we're born into some form of conning. I mean

434
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 1: the con artists who do have that pathological liar streak,

435
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: that's sociopathic streak born, because I don't think you can

436
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: grow into a sociopath, right, That's something I mean, I

437
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: don't know if we fully understand it yet as a species,

438
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,159
Speaker 1: but it's interesting you bring up the phrase or the

439
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: term sociopath. So for the longest time, I believed Mayor

440
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: was a sociopath. But I've since done some research about

441
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: sociopaths versus psychopaths. I'm not even sure what the difference

442
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: is anymore. I've read so many conflicting definitions of the two,

443
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: and today in our culture, as I'm sure you've noticed,

444
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 1: we use them totally interchangeably. I'm a Google expert, so

445
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: my latest Google tells me psychopaths tend to be more manipulative,

446
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: can be seen by others as charming, lead a semblance

447
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: of a normal life and minimize risk in criminal activities.

448
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: A psychopath doesn't have the ability to feel guilt, whereas

449
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: a sociopath tends to be more erratic and rage prone

450
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 1: and they're unable to lead a normal life. When a

451
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: sociopath commits a crime, it's usually spur the moment or

452
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: reaction in a rage. It's not planned. Okay, okay, I

453
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: mean we definitely use them interchangeably in culture. But that's

454
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: really good to know. So sociopath is more of like

455
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: a berserker maniac type, right, can't control his emotions exactly.

456
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: But a psychopath is the CEO or the you know,

457
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: the politician. Yeah, they can look normal, they can be

458
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: friendly and charming, but and they know what they're doing

459
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: and they're not going to get caught. Mary Smith is

460
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: a psychopath, but I think she was born a psychopath

461
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: because in the podcast we hear from her childhood friend

462
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: who knew her at eleven twelve years old, Mary Smith

463
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 1: tricked this girl as Mary Smith is a girl herself,

464
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: tricking another girl into going into a stranger's house, going

465
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 1: into a bedroom, putting on a stranger's clothes and taking

466
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: a picture. And it made such a mark in this

467
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: girl's life, who is now a woman. Jen Westwood who

468
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 1: called me up because she's like, why did she have

469
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: me do that? It just doesn't make any sense. But

470
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: it's an eleven year old girl flexing her muscle of manipulation.

471
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 1: Can I get this girl to do the crazy things? Yes?

472
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: I can. Oh, that's so sinister. And it's that risk

473
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 1: taking behavior to you know, it's like will I get caught?

474
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: Will she get caught? So that makes me think. You know,

475
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Mayor Smith is a born con artist. Yeah, I buy that.

476
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 1: She claims she had childhood trauma. She claims she was

477
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: molested to other people, but I don't believe that because

478
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: she tried to make her daughter claim she was molested

479
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: by her grandfather and it wasn't true. Yeah, it wasn't true.

480
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 1: And and that drove the daughter against Mayor early on,

481
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: because she was trying to get her to lie to

482
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: say she was molested when she wasn't. Wow, that's really dark.

483
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: It is dark, but there's a light at the end

484
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: of this tunnel. Come with mere. Smith's daughter did end

485
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: up testifying against her, and one of the most profound

486
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: things she said in talking to her in the interview

487
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: is and I'm quoting Chelsea here. My mom is always

488
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: far away from the place that she's lying about. She

489
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: grew up in Maine, but I grew up in Tennessee,

490
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: so she was lying to a bunch of people in

491
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: Tennessee about stuff that happened in Maine. So she always

492
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: makes sure her lives are hard to dispute. Is that

493
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: a theme you see? And the con artists you studied,

494
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: they're lying about things that it's hard to check the

495
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: truth of what they're lying about, so you let it go.

496
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: Oh one, I don't even know which anecdote to start with.

497
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a woman in my book who lived

498
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: during the time of the Civil War. Her name was

499
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: probably Lauretta J. Williams, but we don't really know. I

500
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: remember this one, yeah, and she she wrote a memoir about,

501
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, dressing as a man and fighting for the

502
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: Confederate at side, and she made it hard to fact

503
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: check by conveniently leaving out last names, just fluring the details.

504
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, she says she fought under

505
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: General Dave, Like who can check that there might be

506
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: a hundred of them? There might be a hundred And

507
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: then The distance thing reminded me a lot of Margaret

508
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: Lydia Burton, who actually conned with her daughter and they

509
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: were moved around the US like so frequently. They were

510
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: on the run, always on the run. That's such a

511
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: great chapter in your book. Yeah, but they Margaret which

512
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: was her real name, was always lying about the place

513
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: she had just come from. So you know, she would

514
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 1: she would run out, run from Virginia to Georgia, and

515
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: then she would say back in Virginia, I was a

516
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: general's wife, but he died tragically and I lost both

517
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: my kids, you know. So and this in the fifties too. Um,

518
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: so we don't people can't look her up on Facebook

519
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, you could just google her? Yeah, right.

520
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: And so it's like, Okay, she told me she was

521
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 1: a wealthy widow from Virginia, I'm in Atlanta, Georgia. Like,

522
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? We're prone to believe. So, yeah,

523
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: that distance thing is a big part of a lot

524
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: of these cons. Yeah, they're always lying about someplace far

525
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: away that it's hard to check. Yes. Interesting. So I

526
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: have a question about psychics. The vast majority of psychics

527
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: I think are con artists. Is that your take I guess.

528
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to throw a whole population under

529
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: the bus, just the majority. I mean, do you believe

530
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: psychics are real? I don't know for sure, but I

531
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: will say I wouldn't be surprised if someone if I

532
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: got a vision, if someone told me for sure, like

533
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: this person can actually just have some connection to the

534
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: spirit realm, I would believe that. I think there have

535
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: been instances in history of people who just had these

536
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: extra sensory powers. That being said, you know, I talked

537
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: to Rosemark's son, the psychic son, and he was very

538
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: much talking about how all the psychics in their air,

539
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: in their community, we're using the same tricks as his mom,

540
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: but his mom happened to get caught and go to jail.

541
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: So just based on that little piece of anecdotal evidence,

542
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, he seemed to think they were all doing

543
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: the same thing, which would imply that they are all

544
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: con artists. I mean, I do believe psychics are real,

545
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: and I do believe Mayor Smith had psychic abilities. I've

546
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: witnessed her read strangers and bring them to tears with

547
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 1: specific things. One time, this woman sits down. We went

548
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: to a party and the hotel had hired Mayor to

549
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: do readings for the guests. So my husband and I

550
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: are there, and you know, a woman sits down and

551
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: Mayor's like, you're dating a guy in l A and

552
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: New York. You've got to make a decision. You're gonna

553
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: lose them both. And the woman just starts crying like

554
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do, Like how did she

555
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: pick that out of the air? Okay, are you positive

556
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: she didn't research the guests beforehand, because some psychics do that.

557
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: I'm positive because they were random hotel guests. You couldn't know.

558
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: This is a party open to the public. You don't

559
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: know who's going to be there. Okay, So you know,

560
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: there are some psychics who are good people, working hard

561
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: and trying to do good for the world. But a

562
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: lot of psychics are con artists, especially Rose Marks. When

563
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: they start telling you it's gonna you're gonna have to

564
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: sacrifice this much money if you want this good thing

565
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: to happen, and you're gonna have to give this much

566
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: money if you want this good thing, and I can

567
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: set a spell, you know, right, Once huge amounts of

568
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: money get involved, then it's no, you're no longer doing

569
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: a service. You know you're not You're no longer providing

570
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: a solace to people. And something I'm gonna shock you

571
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: with because as I'm interviewing you now, the podcast is

572
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: still being edited. You haven't heard it. You have no idea,

573
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: but this was a revelation. Mayor Smith practiced witchcraft. She's spooky.

574
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: I have scared her. Yeah, she is spooky. She would

575
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: do these binding spells where she uses chicken bones douse

576
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: with dragon's blood. You know what dragon's blood is. No,

577
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: it's not blood from a dragon. It's some kind of

578
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: oil they sell in botanic Us, where like you know, voodoo,

579
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: people go to buy there. It's like a target for

580
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: like witchcraft, a botanica. And she would get these penis

581
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: shaped candles and carve a man's name into it and

582
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: burn it. It's supposed to make the men want you.

583
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: And she had like voodoo dolls. She practiced witchcraft. Is

584
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: that a thing you've seen with con women you've studied?

585
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: Were any of them witches? I know you have a

586
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: chapter The Spiritualists where you talk about people wanting to

587
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: communicate with the dad. So they'll pretend they're talking to

588
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: your dead relative if you pay them so much money,

589
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: and they have all the parlor tricks and the noises

590
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: in the light and the smoke. Yeah, none of them

591
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: were practicing witches. I I don't think any of the

592
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: women in my chapter bought their own stick at all. Um, So, no,

593
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: that's not something I've seen. I mean, do you think

594
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: Mayor was just doing it as like an aesthetic thing

595
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: to seem more spooky, or do you think she really

596
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: meant it? No, she really meant it, because other accounts

597
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: I've heard that are not included that I'll mention here

598
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: mother victims. When she would want to shut someone up,

599
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: and I know she must have done this with me

600
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: when I was onto her, she would go and buy

601
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: the whole tongue of a cow, and she would cut

602
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: the tongue. Apparently you can buy cow tongues from places

603
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: like a butcher shop. I mean, I'm a vegetarian. The

604
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: whole thing disgusts me. But she would buy a cow tongue,

605
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 1: she would cut the cow tongue open, she'd write the

606
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: person's name on a piece of paper, put it in

607
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: the cow tongue, sew it up, and then freeze it

608
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: and that person can no longer speak ill of you

609
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: because their name is on a piece of paper in

610
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 1: a cow tongue frozen. Well, it didn't work for you.

611
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: It didn't work, But I do believe she believed. She

612
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: believed that it would work. I believe she did. Yeah,

613
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: So do you think your name is in a cow

614
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: tongue and a freezer? Still? I am sure? And it's

615
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: an honor. How many people can say they're in a

616
00:33:54,680 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: frozen cow tongue? But I can very few. Ultimately, I

617
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: believe good triumphs over evil eventually, and I think that's

618
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: what happened here. And um, I'm glad I got her,

619
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: and it turned me onto this whole world of con

620
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: artists and my god, your book. I had such a

621
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: good time reading it, and it brought me so much

622
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: comfort because it just made me feel like I'm not alone.

623
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: I was the victim of I know they say prostitutions

624
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 1: the oldest profession, but I disagree. I think con artistry

625
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: is the oldest profession and con artists are everywhere. So

626
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: if you're listening, the next time a stranger introduces themselves

627
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: into your life and they're kind and loving and they

628
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: want to help and they want to become friends real fast,

629
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: you're probably getting caught, and do not do wire transfers.

630
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: Do not if anyone wants you to wire them money.

631
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: It's a con. Yes, Tory Telfer, thank you so much

632
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: for joining us here today. Your book, Confident Women is

633
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: available anywhere books are sold. It's a page turner. I

634
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: read it in two days. And you also do a

635
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: podcast also Criminal Broads if you like stories of women

636
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: who have committed crimes. I've got about sixty two. I

637
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Speaker 1: have a feeling Mayor Smith is going to be sixty three. Well,

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Speaker 1: you have yourself a great day, Tory, thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Alright, byebye, Queen of the con.

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Speaker 1: The Irish Heiress is a production of a y R

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Speaker 1: Media and I Heart Radio, hosted by Me Jonathan Walton.

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Speaker 1: Executive producers Jonathan Walton for Jonathan Walton Productions and Eliza

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Speaker 1: Rosen for a y R Media. Written by Jonathan Walton,

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Speaker 1: Consulting producer Evan Goldstein, Senior Associate producer Eric Newman. Sound

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Speaker 1: designed by Cameron Taggy, Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy.

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Speaker 1: Audio engineering by Elliott Herman. Legal counsel for A y

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Speaker 1: R Media. Gianni Douglas Executive producer for I Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: Chandler Eights