1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Body bags, but Joseph's gotten more. You know, most people 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: don't think about chewing. I'm one of those people that does. 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: As I was growing up. I've got a tooth that's 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: actually recessed that sits back. It's actually the left upper incisor. 5 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: And the reason it bothers me that I do think 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: about chewing many times is that the tooth is so 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: far set back that I have lacerated my tongue a 8 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: couple of times. So, you know, you kind of have 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: every now and then you'll kind of have this hyper awareness, 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, except when it comes to my wife's cherry cobbler, 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: I don't think about it too much. Then. The whole 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: mechanism of digestion is something that most of us never consider. 13 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: But for those of you that don't know digestion actually 14 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: begins in the mouth, you say, well, more than that's 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: kind of obvious. Yeah, it kind of is. But I'm 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: talking about at a molecular level, because there is a 17 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: substance contained in the mouth that is a component of 18 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: saliva that is called amlas, and it's at that moment 19 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: in time where we ingest food and that breakdown begins 20 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: to occur, particularly as it applies to carbohydrates. But you 21 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: know what else, anytime a bit of saliva is left 22 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: behind there in rest amalas and amlase is distinctive. It's 23 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: distinctive and can be tied back to an individual. The 24 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: case we're going to talk about today, or should I 25 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: say cases, because there are four deaths involved in this episode, 26 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: amilies comes into play because I got to tell you something. 27 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: If it weren't for the anales, we might not have 28 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: answers to brutally murdered and set on fire a family 29 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: of four. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Packs. Dave. 30 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: You and I have broken bread together quite a few times, 31 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: and I think probably our shameless plug here. I think 32 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: we've been to Dad's barbecue a couple of times, which 33 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: is one of our favorite places to go. We can 34 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: kind of sit around and hang out and laugh and 35 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 1: do those things that we do. Not that we don't 36 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: already do those things when we're taping body bags. But 37 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, most people don't think about eating and the 38 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: process of digestion, now do they. You just go and 39 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: you eat, and it's just the nature of what we 40 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: do as humans. But yet we leave bits and traces 41 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: behind even with our saliva. And in today's cases, as 42 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: I mentioned, there are four. This might be one of 43 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: the more horrific cases we've covered in recent memory, and 44 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: it involves a grown woman and three children that were 45 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: found all gathered together in a home having been set 46 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: on fire. And you know, we came across this case 47 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: or cases, and I didn't know if I could truly 48 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: take in the scope of what I was reading here. 49 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 2: I was shocked by the entire story because we actually 50 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: have blood relatives here too. We have Sarah Bermudez, thirty 51 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 2: eight years old and her three children, Madison, James, and Michael, 52 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 2: their ages eight, six, and two. And Dad is not home. 53 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: He's actually out on the West Coast for work. In 54 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, somebody, somebody in the middle 55 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 2: of the night breaks into the home and murders the 56 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: entire family. Sarah the mom, Madison the daughter take a 57 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 2: particularly harsh beating and death. They were actually stabbed violently 58 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: in their private areas. And that's where the amalays, as 59 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: you may comes in. I didn't even know how to 60 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: pronounce that word when I saw it in the report, Joe, 61 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: but my first thought was, how does this play into 62 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 2: identifying a possible suspect, because these people were found but 63 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 2: not in what would even be called a pristine state 64 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: in terms of the bodies, because after they were stabbed, 65 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: after they were murdered in the master bedroom, which by 66 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 2: the way, very quickly, why would a mom and three 67 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: children all be in one bedroom in sleeping And that's 68 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 2: why because dad was away and a lot of people 69 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 2: do this, I know we did in my family. You know, 70 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 2: when I was away, Mom would have the kids, hud 71 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: if they'd have a tent kind of a camp out 72 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 2: in the master bedroom, I mean, right, And that's what 73 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 2: they were doing. They were not I. 74 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: Think lots of times I think it, Uh, when mom's 75 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: alone and she's in the house, she wants the comfort 76 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: of having her kids around her, you know, DA's not there. Uh, 77 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: you know kind of uh, you know, protecting the fort 78 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: if you will. And isn't it you know, rifle irony 79 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: here here we have them, you know. And one of 80 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: the other things I've kind of thought about in this 81 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 1: case is were they actually all reposed in this area 82 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: in a natural state, or had their the remains been 83 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: lined up and posed. 84 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: I'm wondering that's actually why I was going to ask you, 85 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: because I could actually understand why they were all in 86 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: the room. 87 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: Joe. 88 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is what the not the ending of 89 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: the story, but after they were murdered, after they were 90 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 2: stabbed to death, and after thirty eight year old mother 91 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 2: and eight year old daughter are actually violated with a 92 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 2: knife in their private areas, that the killer then lit 93 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: them all on fire. Actually poured and they think it 94 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: was diesel, but poured some type of fuel and lit 95 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 2: them on fire. Now, the fire was isolated to just 96 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: the master bedroom. It did not go through the entire house. 97 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: But Joe, it was all over the victims here. They 98 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 2: were burned. The room was burned, and that also comes 99 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: into play in this investigation. So as we pull back 100 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: the sheet on this case, you've got four victims that 101 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: have been stabbed to death. The girls, the females have 102 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: been killed differently or to a greater degree than the 103 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: two males. 104 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, they've been attacked differently. 105 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they've all been lit on fire. How 106 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: do you solve that one, Joe? 107 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: It's a nightmare. Firecases always are. But you know, just 108 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: like so many other things in life, and particularly in 109 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: the world of chemistry, when you begin to think about 110 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: something like an accelerant that's being used. If this was 111 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: in fact diesel, and it sounds like it was. It's 112 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: the nature and the composition of diesel is so divergent 113 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: from what you think about standard gasoline or kerosene. Even 114 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: to a certain degree. Diesel is a very first off, 115 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to light. I don't know if you 116 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: knew that. You know if you have if you have 117 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: a gasoline, a dab of gasoline here, and a dab 118 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: of diesel, if you just merely strike a match over 119 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:35,959 Speaker 1: an open container of gasoline, first off, it's going to 120 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: flash over, yeah, because those those fumes are igniting. But 121 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: if you take a match, the same type of match, 122 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: same type of container, and you strike it and please 123 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: please no one try this at home now, okay, just 124 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: trust trust our experience. Here, you strike the match with diesel, 125 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: did you know that you you can keep your hand adjacent. 126 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: You can still hold onto that match and hold it 127 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: right over the top, just hovering over that collection of diesel, 128 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: and it will not ignite. It has to rise to 129 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: a certain temperature before ignition actually starts with it. So 130 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: it's very slow burning. That's why people talk about Let 131 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: me ask you this question, because I haven't. I think 132 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: my wife Kim has early many years ago, I've never 133 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: owned a diesel vehicle. Now, I have lusted after a 134 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: few of these big trucks every now and then because 135 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: they're really cool looking and very powerful, and diesel does, 136 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: in fact get better gas milage, and it's more expensive. 137 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: You see the difference when you go fill up between 138 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: I look at people and I think, how in the 139 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: world can you afford to fill this beast up that 140 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: you're adjacent to me in, you know, at gas station, 141 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,199 Speaker 1: because it is so freaking expensive. 142 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 2: Two quick things I had. There was a sales manager 143 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: at one of the radio stations I worked for in 144 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: eastern North Carolina back many years ago, and he had 145 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: a Mercedes four fifty SL convertible that was diesel, right, 146 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: And I didn't know anything about diesel until I was 147 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: in the car with him for a morning meeting and 148 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: he actually had to hit a button first to heat 149 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: the gas. He heat the diesel before the car could 150 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: be started. I'm like, you have to heat it before 151 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: you can start the car. And then, yeah, there. 152 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: Are no diesel vehicles in horror movies. 153 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: No none. And the other part of it was, if 154 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: you remember back in the mid seventies when we had 155 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 2: the first oil oil thing in the US, you know, 156 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 2: went through the we're paying fifty cents a gallon then, 157 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: and there were lines stretching for miles to hoping to 158 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 2: get a couple of gallons. And diesel prices were about 159 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: half of what gas costed then, and all as soon 160 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 2: when they started using diesel engines in regular cars for 161 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 2: the rest of us, well, and behold, diesel prices went up. 162 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: Diesel is the fuel that is not nearly as good 163 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: as the gas we burn in our car, but it 164 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: has to be heated to burn. And so they were 165 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: able to turn they being the companies that actually control 166 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: such things, to take this fuel that used to be 167 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: half the price of gas we put in our car 168 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 2: now and for the last forty years, costs more. 169 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to think about this relative to 170 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: first off, when you begin to think about someone that 171 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: would use a flammable and it is flammable, don't get 172 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:47,719 Speaker 1: me wrong, it's just the level of flammability is it 173 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: differs greatly than say, for instance, gasoline. Who first off, 174 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: who has access to putting their hands on diesel because 175 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: it's distinctive. Most people, when you think about it, they're 176 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: going to have access to gasoline or it's going to 177 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: be their first point along the way, you know, because 178 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: we use gasoline for so many things just around the house. 179 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: If you've you know, if you've got a lawnmower, or 180 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: if you've got like some kind of blower or even 181 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: a weed whacker, you have to blend a gas with 182 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: with oil, you know, do a mix. But most of 183 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: the time you're just using regular gasoline. Who who purchases 184 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: a diesel? Was it somebody that operates heavy equipment for 185 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: instance that might burn it in and for instance a 186 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: bulldozer or front end loader or something like or do 187 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: they own a diesel vehicle like a pickup truck, or 188 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: it is a edan I think Kim's Kim's I think 189 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: her car was actually a four door Mercedes and it 190 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: was used. But she, you know, she'd always talk about 191 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: how in order to get up a hill, you know, 192 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: she'd have to turn off the air conditioner, you know, 193 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: in the summertime. But and they do get better gas milage. Okay, 194 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: that the life on these things is is uh is 195 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: more and more so as uh when relative to fuel consumption. 196 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: But who has the wherewithal? And and here's another thing 197 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,559 Speaker 1: about this case, Dave, going back to the salivary anlase, 198 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: I would and I think you might agree with me 199 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: on this, and certainly I'm friends with too. When things 200 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 1: are burned, things are burned at a crime scene. The 201 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: intention of burning something is to destroy that object, that item, 202 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: that evidence, maybe even that person, but to not understand 203 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: the utility of it and understand the functionality of it. 204 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: It gives us pause as investigators to wonder, does your 205 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:16,839 Speaker 1: mind work? One of the more disturbing elements to this case, 206 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 1: not that we're really loaded with disturbing aspects. Salivery amalaes 207 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: was detected on both the bodies of the mother and 208 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: the daughter. And just a quick reminder here, the daughter 209 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: was eight, Dave, and her mother, Sarah Madison was eight 210 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: and mother Sarah was thirty eight. Salivary amilies was actually 211 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: detected in their private area as well. And that means 212 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: that in order to to achieve that, unless you have 213 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: someone who is spitting from, you know, from a distance, 214 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: onto these specific areas, that means you've got oral contact 215 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: going on, and you can you know, take that how 216 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: you wish it does go to this idea of a 217 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: sexual assault. But I think and what's very interesting about this, Dave, 218 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: and you had pointed this out to me, and I'd 219 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: love to kind of hold forth on this a little bit. 220 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: There's one one subject that showed up at the scene, 221 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: that is a public official who was noted to have 222 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: been spitting while they were there. And I think that 223 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: as this case, you know, evolved, the defense found out 224 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: about this in this particular case and and made quite 225 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: a bit of hayover, didn't they. 226 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: They did because there was out of scene and you've 227 00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: pointed this out on a couple of different occasions show 228 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: of locking down a scene and making sure that people 229 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: that are going into the scene have a reason to 230 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 2: be there and be you limited, you know, to not 231 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: mess with the crime scene. And so there was an 232 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 2: officer was stationed at the front door to be that guard. 233 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: And while he was there, because he had been inside 234 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: of the master bedroom where this took place, and there 235 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: was soot and the fire burned itself out, but what 236 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 2: was left behind was just if you can imagine what 237 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 2: that had to have been like in the air with 238 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 2: particles and all these other things in the air, and 239 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: it got in his mouth, and he was standing at 240 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: the front door as people were coming in and not 241 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 2: really thinking it's just a natural reaction. I got garbage 242 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: in my mouth, I'm spitting it out, which is exactly 243 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: what he was doing. And this became a real issue 244 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 2: because he he now is introducing something onto the ground outside. 245 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 2: Granted this is outside of the crime scene, it's on 246 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 2: the ground, but yet it is still a big issue. 247 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: And they were like, why would you do that? What 248 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: were you thinking? And he said, look, you know, he 249 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: described the area as a horror scene already, and he 250 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 2: actually said he was spitting particles that were floating in 251 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: the air. And when he was challenged on why would 252 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 2: you do this while you're standing guarded the door, and 253 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: he actually said human air and a lack of experience. Right, basically, 254 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 2: I wasn't thinking about it. I just did what normal 255 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 2: people would do. Granted it's the wrong thing to do 256 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 2: at a crime scene. It's the wrong thing to do 257 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 2: in that situation, but human air and a lack of experience. 258 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. You know, Yes, the bodies are 259 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: inside of the home, but guess what the is inside 260 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: of a temporary barrier that is created by tape. The police, 261 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: you know, when we go out to a scene as 262 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: forensic personnel emy detectives, when a young officer creates this 263 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: artificial boundary, if you will, with cromscene tape. We think 264 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: about crom scene tape is it's kind of benign thing, 265 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: but it's very distinctive because you're you're setting up a 266 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: boundary where you're saying to the public, that side of 267 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: the tape is yours, this side of the tape is ours, 268 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: and you're declaring the inside of that tape as off 269 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: limits to everybody else. So it has to be treated 270 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: as such. Look, I got to give this guy the 271 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt to a certain degree here. He 272 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: should have known better, obviously, But I have been on 273 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: scenes before, and when you once the fire is doused 274 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: and is out, it's still smolders, all right, and you've 275 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: got all this crap floating in the air. We're not 276 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: out there wearing respirators, you know, like a firefighter is, 277 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: you know, with the all encompassing face shield and you're 278 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: breathing pure oxygen or you know, a certain percentage of it. 279 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: Your airway becomes clogged. Many times you sense it and 280 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: here's something interesting. As a matter of fact, it's and 281 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 1: you can identify with this if you've ever been to 282 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: a bonfire. You might show it back home and you say, God, 283 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: leave it. I smell like smoke. Okay, well right you are. 284 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: You would smell like smoke because it's going to leach 285 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 1: on to you all that debris that's being kicked up 286 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: and that particulate matter that's been given off within that environment. 287 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: You think about the interior of a house. Did you 288 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: know that, like in a carpeted area, when fire touches 289 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: like carpeted area, that sort of thing, you start a 290 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: chemical reaction that produces all kinds of noxious fumes. It's 291 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: not just merely smoke. You can you can actually when 292 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: you do do toxicology on people that have been in fires. 293 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: First off, you're going to find most of the time 294 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: you're going to find a very distinctive level of carbon monoxide. 295 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: But in addition to that, you're going to find elements 296 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 1: in the air like arsenic that'll be contained in there 297 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: that are essentially vaporized, and it's because of component materials 298 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: that are breaking down. And this is a chemical You know, 299 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: when you see a fire. I A fire is kind 300 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: of defined as an uninhibited chemical chain reaction. You have 301 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: to have these multiple things that are in place, heat source, fuel, source, ignition, source, 302 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: all these things, and it has to it's kind of 303 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: a cycle that runs through and so it's it's it's 304 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: burning everything up, but it's creating these elements in the air. 305 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: And when these elements are created, you're going to breathe 306 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,639 Speaker 1: them in. So this young police officer that is, you know, 307 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: standing guard outside of the home, he's going to be 308 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: experiencing this, particularly if he's already gone in, if he's 309 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: not used to it. How much more so, you know, 310 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: for an old you know, an old guy like me 311 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: that's been out on a bunch of fire scenes, I 312 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: expect that I'm going to smell the stuff. I expect 313 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: that that I'm going to be exposed to it. Am 314 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: I going to hack and spit and do all that 315 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: sort of thing? Well, if my airway is blocked, I 316 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: very well might. But you have to use good judgment, 317 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: particularly within the parameters of an established boundary for a 318 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: crime scene. Dave. 319 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: And when I was seeing this show, my first thought 320 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: was what you have said on this show about protecting 321 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: the crime scene. It really was, And I thought, if 322 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: I know that at and how much more should an 323 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: officer of the law know something like this. I understand 324 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 2: chalking it up. Hey, you made a mistake, but this 325 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: is a big mistake because you're talking about in this 326 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: day and age where every bit of anything from our 327 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: bodies we got touched DNA cases. Now, I mean, this 328 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 2: is something that goes beyond what we can even imagine. 329 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: And in this particular case, you started off at the 330 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: very beginning talking about a part of DNA, a part 331 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: of our fluid, a part of something that I'd never 332 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: even heard of until today. 333 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, and it's a distinct component 334 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: within saliva. Here's the really fascinating thing about this, though, 335 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: is that the perpetrator in this case attempted to use 336 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: a heat source in order to destroy evidence and did 337 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: such a poor job with the selection of the accelerant 338 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: was not sufficient to the task, right, Because you think 339 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: you would think that if there was evidence of a 340 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault, which by the bye there was, that you 341 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: would have perhaps thought this out more clearly as to 342 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 1: eradication of any kind of evidence. And there is an 343 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: indication here that this fire did not burn over a 344 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: sustained period to a sufficient level to destroy all of this, 345 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 1: particularly when you can still appreciate the fact that the 346 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: bodies are posed and arranged in a particular manner. They 347 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: are their legs Jesus, I hate to say this, but 348 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: their legs are spread apart. 349 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: It's just the girls though. 350 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: It's not the boys. It's not the boys. It's just 351 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: the girls. And I've had a couple of other cases 352 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: like this one that we're going to cover, I'm sure 353 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: in a few months that occurred back in a suburb 354 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: of Atlanta, And not to go down a rabbit hole, 355 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: but uh, we had female members of a very large 356 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: family and all all of the female members in the 357 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: family were brutally, brutally beaten to death and cut. There 358 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: were males that were equally brutalized, but they both survived, 359 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: one with a permanent brain injury. And this attack was 360 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: focused on on these two females. And you get you 361 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: start going down this road. You know that you know, 362 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: my friend Karen Stark, a forensic psychologist, you know, would 363 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: go down and you can read a lot into this 364 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: when you begin to think about, well, why would you 365 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: focus on the females, and it wasn't just it wasn't 366 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: just merely burning the females. It was the sexual assault 367 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: of these of these two uh well, this young girl 368 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: and her mother. It's also distabbing and cutting, where you 369 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: have the genitalia that are assaulted with a sharp force weapon, 370 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: where there's a disfigurement that's going on, and it's it's 371 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: primarily below the waist, you know, when you think about that, 372 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: that's that's very specific. Dave. 373 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: I looked at this case from the very beginning as 374 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 2: odd because we're dealing with a relative being accused of 375 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 2: this murder, the murder of a family wild dad's away. 376 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: It just seemed like there's something more at play and mentioning. 377 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 2: At first, I thought, you've got a chronically broke drug 378 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: user who knows that he has family members where the 379 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: man is not home, where they probably have money or 380 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 2: he can get money from them, And that's what I 381 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 2: was thinking at first. But then when we found out 382 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 2: that there was more to the murders than just a 383 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: killing everybody and lighting the place on fire to cover 384 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 2: your tracks, and that the attack was sexual in nature 385 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 2: on the females, that changed everything from the way I 386 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: looked at it, Joe, and it brought about more questions 387 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: I had for you about motive, because motive. I know, 388 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 2: they don't have to prove motive to prove anything, but 389 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: from our standpoint looking at a case, you kind of 390 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: have to know why, or maybe don't have to feel 391 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: like I ought to know why something took place. Why 392 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: did this suspect target these victims? And what I thought 393 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: was the beginning of the case, killing people because he 394 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: knew they might have money for drugs, ends up being 395 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: something totally different. I mean, this is an actual targeted 396 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: attack of a sexual nature on the girls. And it 397 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: looks like the boys were just kind of killed because 398 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: they were witnesses. 399 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, they just happened to be there. And you know, 400 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: I think all of us hate to use the term 401 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: I know I do because it leaves a bad taste 402 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: in the back of my mouth of collateral damage, because 403 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: it's the term collateral damage is dismissive of the value 404 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: that each individual human has, including these these you know, 405 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: these these young boys that were also and they're young, Dave, 406 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they're very young. What would be the purpose 407 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: of doing this to totally eradicate But on even if 408 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: it could not get more chilling. I think that it's 409 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: very important to understand that the so called sexual assault 410 00:27:54,280 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: that took place was not perpetrated with the male sexual organ, 411 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: but the sexual assault so called was perpetrated, according to 412 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: the medical examiner, with a knife. So there's certain things 413 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: that we look for at crime scene stay with sharp 414 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: horse injuries. Uh, first off, they're very bloody affairs most 415 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: of the time. Yeah, I'd say that most of the 416 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: time they are. And it's almost and when you get 417 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: more than uh one victim, obviously, uh percentage wise, that's 418 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: going to increase the volume of blood that you have there. Uh, 419 00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not even like a gunshot one day, 420 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: because every time the act of stabbing occurs, you're puncturing 421 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: another defect into a body. And it is rare that 422 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: you go out on it on a sharp forced injury 423 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: death involving stabbings as opposed to you know, like an 424 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: incized one, which is a cut. Do you just have 425 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: one insult to the body, It's going to be multiple 426 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: And Dave, something that is quite striking about this is that, actually, 427 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: Lord have mercy. Sarah, thirty eight year old mother Dave. 428 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 1: She had over forty stab ones forty. Just let that 429 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: number sink in for a moment. 430 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: That's stab in slice, right, that's that is what you 431 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 2: mentioned is insized is a slice? 432 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so inside if you here's a good way to 433 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: remember it. And I love you using this descriptor. Our 434 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: teeth have very specific names. So your two primary teeth, 435 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: well not primary primary is actually when it comes to 436 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: dentistry as something that's alluded to relative to children. But 437 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: the central incisors okay, well they're incisors. To incize means 438 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: to cut, and that's the purpose if you think about 439 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: like bodying a sandwich. If you think about bodying a sandwich, 440 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: you're incizing the sandwich with your incisors and then you rip. Well, 441 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: an incised injury with a knife or a machete or hey, 442 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: even an axe. That means that it's a cut or 443 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: slice as opposed to a stab, which many times you're 444 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: not using the full length of the knife to enter 445 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: the body, but you're puncturing the body. So it's a 446 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: thrust and you can you can actually stab people obviously 447 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: with things other hand a knife. You can use a 448 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: pencil if you've got one, or a pin or a 449 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: spike or an ice pick. An ice pick. Yeah, the 450 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: old guys used to carry ice picks in their shoes 451 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: for years and years. I think, bad, bad, Lee Roy Brown. 452 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: I know that was a razor. That was a razor, 453 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: that'd be an insize, but old guys, old guys that 454 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: ran the streets, they'd carry ice picks with them many times. 455 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: And those are in fact staves, but they can also 456 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: be interpreted as punctures as well. It's a bit different. 457 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, so for what we're understanding, you've got these 458 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 1: multiple sharp force injuries, Dave, this is a lot of work, 459 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: this is a lot of anger, and you have these 460 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: insults that are occurring to all of these bodies. But 461 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: it appears that Sarah, the mama, she took the brunt 462 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: of this. 463 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 2: Well, and you point out that she had forty wounds, 464 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 2: some defensive. But when they were investigating this, and this 465 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 2: is kind of where there comes into play, there was 466 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: something I wanted to ask you about because they mentioned, 467 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: they being law enforcement, that the fire did not burn 468 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: through and it actually burned itself out. But they had 469 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: the state forensic expert, her name is Kelly King, and 470 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: she said that the fire again they think it was 471 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 2: diesel fuel was what was used, and that as they 472 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 2: were going through this scene, they found blood stains on 473 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 2: the walls, they found blood stains on the carpet, and 474 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 2: they found blood stains on a lamp and some other items. 475 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: And they found this even though there was fire going on, 476 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: And that to me was something my brain could not 477 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: quite wrap itself around that they were able to pull 478 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: this out after a fire. 479 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, that goes to the ineffectiveness of the accelerant that's 480 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: being used in the amount of heat that was generated. 481 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: Remember what I said earlier on Dave. You can literally 482 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: take a match, strike it and hold it in, you know, 483 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: like a saucer. If you just think of a saucer, 484 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 1: that might be I don't know, less than a curve 485 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: of an inch in depth of diesel that's been poured 486 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: in there. Even with that, the heat that's being generated 487 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: by the match is not sufficient to raise the temperature 488 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: that is required in order to ignite that diesel. Okay, 489 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: so it has to be it's a long process in 490 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: order to actually ignite diesel. It's it's very impractical if 491 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: you're trying to start a fire with it. Even if 492 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: you if you think about lighter fluid like charcoal, lighter fluid, 493 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: that's more. That's even that's it's not as unstable as gas, 494 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: but it's still unstable. It's certainly more unstable than diesel. 495 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: So its ignition point is much lower. With diesel, it's 496 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: much higher. So what has to happen? You know, That's 497 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: why we talk about accelerants. An accelerant is that component 498 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: that is placed on an item in order to initiate 499 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: a fire. It's not there to sustain the fire. So 500 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: what does that mean if you're just looking at it 501 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: from a chemistry standpoint, Well, whatever, you're dumping it on 502 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: a human body, which don't They don't burn very well. 503 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: They're not a good fuel source because fuel source and 504 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: accelerant are two different things. The accelerant initiates the fire 505 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: once it's been ignited, and you want it to burn 506 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: hot enough so that let's say, for instance, you throw it. 507 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: Let's say you've got synthetic drapes that are hanging, you know, 508 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: over a window, okay, and you just choose the blend polyester, 509 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, you choose it. Maybe it's a wool 510 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: polyester blend or whatever. The curtains are made out of 511 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: You doubt that with gasoline, and you set you better, 512 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: stand back, you strike a match, you throw it at it. 513 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: That thing's going to go up like a tinder box. 514 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: And it's because the heat, the heat required is much lower, 515 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: and it will, it will burn up. It will. It 516 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: will cause the temperature in the curtains or the drapes 517 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: to rise, so that the fire is self sustaining. At 518 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: that point you no longer need the accelerant, and the 519 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 1: accelerant will burn off this certain degree. Diesel is different. 520 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: It takes a lot just to get it going and 521 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: then the item. Then you're reliant on the fuel source, 522 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: which would be the drapes of the curtains, in order 523 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: to sustain that. So the fact that they found these 524 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: blood patterns out there is not necessarily surprising if they're 525 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: looking at diesel, because it's not going to be enough, 526 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: you know, if they you know, one comment is that 527 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: they found these blood stains on a wall. Well, if 528 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: they are sheet rock walls, which are made out of gypsum, 529 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: it's not a good fuel source. It's just not. It's 530 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: better than human flesh, but it's not a good fuel source. 531 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: So the fact that the fire didn't reach up there 532 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: to destroy it. The lamp shade is kind of interesting though. 533 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: You would think that a lamp shade would just you know, 534 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: catch fire and everything, but they found blood deposition on 535 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 1: the lamp shade as well. There's a lot of violence 536 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: that's going on here, so you've got this deposition. I'm 537 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: sure it's very dynamic with this kind of cast off 538 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 1: patterns because every time that knife is essentially, you know, 539 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: just dug into these people's bodies, it's withdrawn, it's soaking wet, 540 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: the surface is soaking wet, and as it's kind of 541 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: thrown back in order to generate the power that it 542 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: takes to thrust it forward again, that blood is traveling 543 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: through the air and it's gonna grab is going to 544 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: take charge, and it's going to fall and deposit itself 545 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 1: in these very specific patterns. So it's fascinating. In a 546 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: house fire like this, I think that they would actually 547 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: find blood pattern that they could analyze. The trick is 548 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: whose blood is it? Are you able to type the blood? Well? 549 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: Percentages would indicate because Sarah was so very traumatized, you 550 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: would think that the majority of it would be hers. 551 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: If you're using the same instrument, much like I have 552 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: talked about in the Idaho case. Now keep that in mind. 553 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: You have commingling of blood perhaps where you're using the 554 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,280 Speaker 1: same knife and you're moving about from victim to victims, 555 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: So you can have this kind of commingling of all 556 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: of these different blood sources that are very going to 557 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: be very distinctive from a DNA standpoint. It's hard to know. 558 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 1: Sequencing though, very very difficult. But Dave, my understanding is 559 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: is that THEME found evidence Lord that a lot of 560 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: these wounds, many of these wounds were inflicted upon her 561 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: while she was still alive. 562 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 2: I was looking this over and saw that and thought, okay, 563 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 2: you have children that are eight, six and two, Yeah, 564 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 2: and you have mom as thirty eight. Well, was this 565 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 2: individual accused of this murder of murdering them? Did he 566 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 2: kill the children first and then fought mom she you know, 567 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 2: or based on the fact they're all in that one bedroom, 568 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 2: did he attack the mother and keep the children somehow 569 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: in the room while did they watch their mother die 570 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,400 Speaker 2: is kind of what I'm after, and then he killed them? 571 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: Or I'm trying to figure out when you mentioned sequencing, 572 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 2: we don't know how it happened, but in the end, 573 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 2: we know that she had defensive wounds on her hands, 574 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 2: We know that she had sliced, insized and stab wounds, 575 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 2: and we know that in the end of things that 576 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 2: they were able. And this goes to what you started 577 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:24,240 Speaker 2: with the amalaise in the testimony, that there was body 578 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 2: fluid bound on and in the females. 579 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 1: Right. I it's hard to know the sequence. I think 580 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:41,239 Speaker 1: that probably we don't want to think about, you know 581 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: what this children bore witness to. Nobody in their right 582 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: mind would want to, you know, try to envision that. However, 583 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 1: from the perspective of an investigator, you kind of have 584 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: to tease that out and try to understand it and 585 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 1: try to understand what the status of the children were 586 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,239 Speaker 1: while it was going. I think we would hope that 587 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: they were deceased, you know, that they didn't in their 588 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, in their little mind's eyes, that they didn't 589 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 1: have to bear witness to this horror show. And it 590 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: has been described as a horror show at the scene 591 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,240 Speaker 1: of you know what Michael, who was two and James 592 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: who was six, might have seen, and you know, certainly 593 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Madison as well, remember she was eight. You have a 594 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: you have a mother yeah, and also sexually assaulted. You 595 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: have a mother though, that's fighting back, and I think 596 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: that just about any mother in the world, she's trying 597 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: to protect her children. She knows that there is evil 598 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: that has entered this home where her husband is not. 599 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: And we look at this and we think, well, who 600 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: in the world would want to perpetrate such a horrible 601 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: acton upon this family? Well, Dave, you said a lot 602 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: when you said, you know, the individual would have probably 603 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: have had to have an awareness. Do you think he 604 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: would have tried to do this if Dad had been 605 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,799 Speaker 1: at home? I think that the odds are very very 606 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: low on that end. And you know, because dad, You 607 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: know that Dad is going to fight if he has 608 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: an awareness of this, and he might be able to 609 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: match strength or strength with the perpetrator. In this case, 610 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: the dad's name, by the way, is Moses. And they 611 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,239 Speaker 1: may have had a chance to escape this home with 612 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: this wild person inside home with them. But now you've 613 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:42,439 Speaker 1: got a mama in there that's trying to defend these 614 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: three babies of eight, six and two. She's going to 615 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,880 Speaker 1: fight like hellcat and the fact that she's got defensive 616 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: wounds is not surprising. In this case. I think the 617 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: most troubling thing, and to try to understand it is 618 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: when what was the sequence of the assaults relative to 619 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: the sexual assault? Is this some perverted monster that is 620 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: also a necro file as well, in addition to being 621 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,759 Speaker 1: a killer of children and women? Is that something else 622 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:19,920 Speaker 1: that we're going to pile on top here because I 623 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: think that that possibility might exist. And here's here's something else. 624 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: I've got two indications of preparation here, actually three. He's 625 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 1: shown up armed. Okay, he's shown up at a time 626 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,160 Speaker 1: when Dad is not there, when Moses is working out 627 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,839 Speaker 1: on the west coast, and in addition to that, he's 628 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 1: brought what he thinks at least is a proper accelerant 629 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 1: to eradicate evidence. David, when you begin to think about 630 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: a perpetrator, thinking about eradicating evidence, this is not some 631 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: wild guy that's running down the street seeing pink eleph here. 632 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: This is a guy that has purposed. He's got what 633 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: we refer to as menace ray, which you know we'll 634 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: have talked Nancy about that, but that's a guilty mind. 635 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: You've got the actus ray, which is the guilty act, 636 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: and then the menace ray, which is the guilty. Mind, 637 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,000 Speaker 1: he knows that he has to burn this burn any 638 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:24,200 Speaker 1: kind of evidence that he may have left behind. But boy, 639 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 1: he was really insufficient to the task. Dave. 640 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 2: This has been a shocking case, and it has gone 641 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: on for a number of years. 642 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: Jo. 643 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 2: This actually occurred in twenty eighteen, and we're now taping 644 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 2: this in twenty twenty four and the case is in 645 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,560 Speaker 2: trial right now. 646 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: We'll have a decision in this case sooner than later. 647 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:50,879 Speaker 1: As you had stated, we're right in the middle of it. 648 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,600 Speaker 1: And it's the nature of this and this case is 649 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,399 Speaker 1: not really one of the reasons I was interested in 650 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 1: discussing this case is well, first off, it's absolutely horrific, 651 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 1: but that horror goes to another indicator here. I cannot 652 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 1: understand why the thing has not gotten more coverage nationwide, 653 00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: because you know, out of all the cases that we cover, 654 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: something like this, which by the way, is, like you said, 655 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,439 Speaker 1: up in the northeast, it's up in the Massachusetts area, 656 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,920 Speaker 1: you would think that certainly it would have hit the 657 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,480 Speaker 1: news cycle and we would have heard about it all 658 00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: over the place, but we really haven't. But you know, 659 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: I think that it is important that we tell the tale, 660 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: particularly for Sarah, for James, for Michael, and for Madison, 661 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: because no one, and I mean no one deserves to 662 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 1: go through this and end up in a horror show. 663 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybucks.