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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show

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Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any of

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Speaker 1: view is expressed here do not represent those of iHeart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heat as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. As we continue

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Speaker 1: with a fairly intensive delve into the issue of psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: I'm delighted and honor today to have on Professor Matthew Johnson.

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Speaker 1: Matt is a professor at Johns Hopkins University. In fact, he,

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Speaker 1: i think is the first professor academic ever to receive

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Speaker 1: a name chair in psychedelic studies. He's the Susan hill

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Speaker 1: Ward Professor in Psychedelics and Consciousness, and he's recently stepped

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Speaker 1: into the shoes of Roland Griffin's another distinguished professor in

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Speaker 1: this area, to become the Director of the Center at

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins on psychedelic and consciousness research. I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: really one of the outstanding researchers in the world these days.

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Speaker 1: We've been working on this issue since the early two thousands, mentoring, writing, publishing,

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Speaker 1: you name it. So, Matt Hey, it's a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: have you at on Psychoactive. Oh, it's my pleasure. It's

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Speaker 1: an honor to chat with the Ethan remind me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've been bumping into another recently at these

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Speaker 1: psychedelics conferences, the Wonderland Miami conference in November and then

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Speaker 1: the Horizons conference in December, New York. But do you

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Speaker 1: recall when was it we first met. Yeah, I believe

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Speaker 1: it was when I was president of Students for Sensible

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Speaker 1: Drug Policy Chapter at the University of Vermont. I had

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Speaker 1: founded that chapter and I invited you to come speak

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Speaker 1: for us, which you did, and I believe that was

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Speaker 1: the first It must have been two thousand and three

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Speaker 1: or so. That sounds about right. Yeah. So, Matt you've

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Speaker 1: probably done more studies involving giving psychedelics human subjects than

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Speaker 1: almost anybody. Are certainly in the top tier. So can

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Speaker 1: you just walk us through what does it involve? Sort

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Speaker 1: of launching one of these things, getting the approval of

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Speaker 1: the right institutions, screening for the right participants in the trial.

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Speaker 1: What is that look like? The first phase, which folks

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Speaker 1: normally don't think about it is like hustling up the funding,

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Speaker 1: so you know through somebody you've gotten the traditionally philanthropy

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Speaker 1: for us but psychedelics, but you hustle up the funding.

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Speaker 1: The next one is the Institutional Review Board the i RB.

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Speaker 1: They call it an ethics board in England. It's the

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Speaker 1: committee at your university that decides whether this research is

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Speaker 1: ethical to do or not, and they can require any

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Speaker 1: number of changes in or before allowing you to do

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Speaker 1: that work. Once you have addressed the i r b

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Speaker 1: s questions, then you administer to the f d A

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Speaker 1: and then that's the same thing. Any number of experts

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Speaker 1: from different divisions of f d A can weigh in,

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Speaker 1: maybe you know, chemists and psychologists and others, all weighing

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Speaker 1: with other concerns. They have on your protocol and they

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Speaker 1: can either approve it or they can put it on

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Speaker 1: clinical whold, meaning you have to change things before we

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Speaker 1: approve it. And then they approve things. Then you've got

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Speaker 1: to go to the d e A you know, the

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Speaker 1: drug enforcement people and get permission from them. And part

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Speaker 1: of the process for the d e A approval is

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Speaker 1: for them to go to an independent section of f

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Speaker 1: d A. In yes, I already mentioned we've already gone

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Speaker 1: to f d A, but this is redundant. They go

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Speaker 1: back to the FDA as far the d A process

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Speaker 1: and get the FDA's approval, and then the d e

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Speaker 1: A gets back to you. And so those are broad steps,

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Speaker 1: that's what it is, and that takes anywhere from like

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Speaker 1: six months to a year, depending on how much pushback

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Speaker 1: you get on any number of these steps. So it's

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Speaker 1: a big bureaucratic process. And then we respect to the

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Speaker 1: recruitment and screening of participants in the trials. We have

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Speaker 1: fairly a stringent screening criteria, so most people who apply

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Speaker 1: don't qualify, and it could be for any number of

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Speaker 1: medical including psychiatric reasons, depending on the study. So there's

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Speaker 1: a phone screening well actually for most of these now

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Speaker 1: there's a a web form as the initial phase of screening,

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Speaker 1: and then we call people up on the phone if

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Speaker 1: they need initial eligibility criteria and do some more screening

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Speaker 1: on the phone, and then for a subset of those folks,

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Speaker 1: then they come to the lab for two days for

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Speaker 1: these four or five hours at least. So it's a

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Speaker 1: substantial investment of time to do these extensive in person

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Speaker 1: screening and this is more than say, for example, like

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Speaker 1: an undergraduate you know, psychology class experiment might participate in

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Speaker 1: where you you know, fill out a form for five

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Speaker 1: minutes to screen for it. This is you know, several

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Speaker 1: days of extensive medical and psychological evaluation. And so after that,

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Speaker 1: if someone didn't qualify eyes with all of you know,

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Speaker 1: all of the criteria for the study, then they move

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Speaker 1: into a screening phase where they prepare anywhere from four

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Speaker 1: to eight hours depending on the study, with the two

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Speaker 1: people the guides or the therapist who will be with

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Speaker 1: them during their psilocybin session. And then you have the

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Speaker 1: psilocybin session or some say there's multiple sessions, sometimes there's one,

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Speaker 1: and typically the day after each psilocybin session, there's what

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Speaker 1: we call an integration session where we discussed the session.

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Speaker 1: I see, and I know there's been some issues raised

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Speaker 1: about about their being, you know, a disproportionately low number

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Speaker 1: of black people people are generally, but especially black people

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Speaker 1: in these trials what's your experience with that and what

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Speaker 1: if it challenges and how far have you got in Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's been a challenge across the field. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, the demographics skew white, and that happens to

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Speaker 1: be consistent with the data on who is using psilocybin illicitly.

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Speaker 1: It sends to be a white male thing if you

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Speaker 1: look at those umbers. That isn't to say that all

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Speaker 1: the people that are are are you know, applying our

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Speaker 1: people who have used psilocybin, but it just it might

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Speaker 1: speak to a common interest for whatever reason. There may

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Speaker 1: be more subcultural interest in certain you know, subcultures than

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Speaker 1: than in others. So it tends to be more of

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Speaker 1: a thing that seems to be of interest in in

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Speaker 1: white circles than in say, black circles. We do have representation,

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Speaker 1: it's not at the level of minorities, including black folks

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Speaker 1: and the research but not at the levels that would

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Speaker 1: be you know, proportional to society, you know, to their

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Speaker 1: placement in society. So we need to do a better job.

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Speaker 1: And you know, kind of like other groups in this area,

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Speaker 1: are have been doing a number of things, you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about where what what particular, you know where we're

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Speaker 1: advertising at. We recently hired a person to help us

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Speaker 1: with additional recruitment efforts to in part to help look

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Speaker 1: into some of these issues to increase minority representations. It's

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Speaker 1: a challenge. There's no you know, over a bullet solution,

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Speaker 1: but it's something to keep doing our best on. So, Matt,

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously when you started doing this work fifteen

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Speaker 1: years ago, it was hesitant to talk about it. Now

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Speaker 1: major research university is not just your own, but I

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Speaker 1: think Harvard and Yale and n y U and University

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Speaker 1: of California and Impureau College England all setting up these

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Speaker 1: major research programs. I mean, now when you talk about it,

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Speaker 1: is there a major transformation in the way that other

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Speaker 1: academics way outside the field of psychologic study respond to

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Speaker 1: this or do do you feel like the words still

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Speaker 1: not really out there very much? Oh, there's been tremendous progress.

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Speaker 1: I mean we're still not there. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people that kind of like just kind of don't get it.

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Speaker 1: You just get this smirk when you bring I remember

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Speaker 1: one time going to the i r B that the

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Speaker 1: review board at the at the United University, you know,

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Speaker 1: to get studies approved and just like this this look

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Speaker 1: like like you're talking about a Cheech and Chong movie,

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Speaker 1: you know, something funny. It's like it's almost like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to get away. We know what you're up to,

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Speaker 1: Like like this sort of sideways smirk of like all right,

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Speaker 1: you know you're giving people mushrooms up. Of course they're

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Speaker 1: gonna feel like they're spiritual and I don't know whatever

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Speaker 1: when they're when they're loaded up on mushrooms, you get

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Speaker 1: a sense of that. But the more and more people

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Speaker 1: I think, I've seen these results and like uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: results in jama psychiatry and results these oh gosh, the

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Speaker 1: results with cancer patients, and to me, it's just like

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Speaker 1: this bizarre thing of like sometimes you get this little feedback,

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Speaker 1: like the smirk of like as if this isn't very

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Speaker 1: serious or this is a kind of a cute see thing,

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Speaker 1: And then like you've just run like say a cancer

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Speaker 1: participant and afterwards like they're just you know, crying about

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Speaker 1: this opening up this kind of space in their life

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Speaker 1: where they're able to talk with their loved ones about

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Speaker 1: their dying and how it's transformed their life. And just

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Speaker 1: like to square this with the like kind of the

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Speaker 1: Cheech and Chong joke level. There's such a contrast between

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Speaker 1: those two things. Matt. I've heard you talk about how

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Speaker 1: sometimes some of the most difficult parts of a psychedelic

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Speaker 1: trip while you're doing a therapeutic session can prove to

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Speaker 1: be the most valuable and that patients can even you know,

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Speaker 1: come out of a feeling that way. But have you

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Speaker 1: had to deal with situations where people were still struggling

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Speaker 1: months later as a result of having been in a

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Speaker 1: trial not months later, there have been people who have

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Speaker 1: have struggled in the days and to a degree weeks

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Speaker 1: following the sessions, and this is sort of a difficult

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Speaker 1: thing to describe. And the big picture is the process

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Speaker 1: I think ideally should be viewed as healthy, like a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, especially when dealing with some of the

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Speaker 1: issues we're dealing with, Like the treatment is hard, it

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Speaker 1: raises difficult issues, and those those things that come to

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Speaker 1: mind during the session don't necessarily disappear once the drugs

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Speaker 1: out of your system. But this is in common with

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Speaker 1: other successful forms of therapy. I mean, I think of

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Speaker 1: the treatment of trauma, where the whole point is that

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Speaker 1: it's going to be difficult. You have the process that

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Speaker 1: the material. So that's I think that's an important backdrop. Now,

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Speaker 1: there have been some people, and we warn people in

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Speaker 1: our consent that, you know, sometimes people the way I

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Speaker 1: think of it is you can have something like a

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Speaker 1: midlife crisis, you know, you can really these sessions can

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Speaker 1: really prompt questions for someone that sometimes they can be

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Speaker 1: stuck psychologically and feel they could benefit from seeing a

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Speaker 1: professional to help them process. So, now this isn't not

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Speaker 1: talking about anyone deally with any psychotic process or anything

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Speaker 1: like that, but folks that really are kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: the psychedelics have stuck, have left them stuck in a

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Speaker 1: in a in an unresolved space. So we do warn

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Speaker 1: people that this can happen and that some people may

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Speaker 1: benefit or may feel that they could benefit from seeking

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Speaker 1: out additional professional help. In other words, the psychedelic sessions,

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason you've come into the study, they can

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Speaker 1: potentially raise issues for you that you might feel called

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Speaker 1: to then you need to, you know, see a therapist

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Speaker 1: over So for example, you might be in a study

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Speaker 1: over smoking cessation, but some you might have an experience

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Speaker 1: of trauma from decades ago. That's resurfaced that all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden you feel like you need to process, and

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Speaker 1: in fact that that if that does happen, you're going

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Speaker 1: to be best off if you do see a professional

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Speaker 1: process that now that may not fit into the time

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Speaker 1: frame of a particular study, say a psychedelic study for

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Speaker 1: a smoking cessation. So one may reach out and we've

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Speaker 1: given some referrals and and this is certainly a minority

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Speaker 1: of cases, but of referrals for folks that feel like

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Speaker 1: they want to pick up on some therapy with with

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Speaker 1: a therapist who is um not going to use psychedelics negatively,

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Speaker 1: who's not going to kind of hear their experience and

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Speaker 1: then sort of pathologize the experience itself because they used psilocide. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know, you wrote a pretty important piece

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Speaker 1: a few years ago with I think maybe it's with

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Speaker 1: Rolling Griffins and also a very another very prominent drug

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Speaker 1: research Kenny Field, in which you talked about where might

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Speaker 1: psilocybin and potentially this psychelics fit into the Controlled Substances Act. Right.

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Speaker 1: Control subs Act is that fifty year old law that

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Speaker 1: determines whether drugs are gonna be put in schedules one, two, three, four,

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Speaker 1: or five, where one are drugs that supposedly have no

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Speaker 1: medical value and a great risk to the public health.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, descending on downward for drugs that

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Speaker 1: have a you know, a good medical value but also

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Speaker 1: risk to the public and then down to the lowest level,

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Speaker 1: which you're seen as relatively non dangerous. The basic idea

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Speaker 1: of ranking drugs according to the risk of medical benefit

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Speaker 1: makes some sense, but that the Controlled Substances Act, where

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Speaker 1: you have drugs like heroin, marijuana, and psilocybin all in

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Speaker 1: Schedule one, all notwithstanding you know, fairly substantial evidence that

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Speaker 1: they do have medical benefit, and a process where a

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Speaker 1: federal police agency, the d e A, has a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of say about where drugs are scheduled. What do

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Speaker 1: you really think about the Controlled Substances Act. That's a

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Speaker 1: great question, Ethan, because the framing of the paper was,

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Speaker 1: you know, given the Controlled Substances Act is the way

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Speaker 1: these substances are regulated. The question is, if psilocybin, based

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Speaker 1: on Phase three data looks safe and efficacious, how should

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Speaker 1: it fit into the Controlled Substances Act. And that's kind

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Speaker 1: of a narrow framing that's not you know, taking on

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Speaker 1: the question of should the Controlled Substances Act exists or

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Speaker 1: should it exist in anything like its present form, that's

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Speaker 1: a much bigger, you know question, And the Controlled Substances

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Speaker 1: Act is not likely to go away by the time,

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Speaker 1: you know, within probably the next two three or four years,

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Speaker 1: is not going to be you know, it's still going

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Speaker 1: to be the law of the land, most likely by

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Speaker 1: the time the psilocybin it gets through Phase three trials.

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Speaker 1: So it's sort of a very pragmatic in that sense.

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Speaker 1: But what I really think about the Controlled Substances Act,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as you know, uh, you know, analysis after

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Speaker 1: analysis has found in the United States, in the UK,

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Speaker 1: and in the Netherlands, in Europe, experts and all of

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Speaker 1: these areas, drug experts have been probed systematically, and the

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Speaker 1: correlation between the ranking, the scheduling of drugs and they're

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Speaker 1: perceived harms by experts is abysmal, you know. And this

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Speaker 1: is including both illegal and legal drugs, and so alcohol

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Speaker 1: will invariably show up near the top of of these

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Speaker 1: lists in terms of harm to self harm to individuals,

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Speaker 1: far higher than many of the illegal substances, and psilocybin

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Speaker 1: mushrooms consistently fall at the very very bottom, both in

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Speaker 1: terms of harm to self and harm to others, so

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Speaker 1: that we do make the point that there are risks.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about technically we talk about abuse liability,

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Speaker 1: that's a confusing term that that does. Part of that

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Speaker 1: is addiction liability, the propensity for that drug to be

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Speaker 1: used in a compulsive fashion. We know very very well

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Speaker 1: that psilocybin and the other classic psychedelics like LSD, mescaline,

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Speaker 1: d MT are not addictive. But abuse liability in the

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Speaker 1: context of the Controlled Substances Act also refers to just

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Speaker 1: the risk of the drugs, the liability of using the drugs,

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Speaker 1: so not necessarily related to addiction potential, but just hey,

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Speaker 1: are there dangerous to the drug that can harm the

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Speaker 1: self or others? And you know, are showing a signal

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Speaker 1: at the public health level. So now, yes, there are

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Speaker 1: some harms, particularly people of psychiatric vulnerability, and there's good

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Speaker 1: reason to believe people with predisposition towards schizophrenia can be destabilized.

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Speaker 1: Anyone can have a so called bad trip, and particularly

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Speaker 1: if they're not prepared and if they're at a high

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Speaker 1: dose and an archaotic setting around people they don't trust,

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Speaker 1: they can freak out, to put it, to use technical language,

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Speaker 1: and you know, they could be at a concert and

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Speaker 1: they're hauled out by the paramedics and the police, and

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Speaker 1: then things escalate. Occasionally there's an accent. Occasionally someone dies,

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Speaker 1: should be no surprise, as with any other intoxicating a substance,

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Speaker 1: very rare when you plotted against the other. All of

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Speaker 1: the other substances legal and illegal, but nonetheless there is

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Speaker 1: some risk there. So there is some mild abuse liability,

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Speaker 1: getting not a dick liability, but abuse liability in terms

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Speaker 1: of having those those dangers. The big problem with the

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Speaker 1: Controlled Substances Act, in my opinion, is that it is

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Speaker 1: based on two fundamentally distinct categories. Two dimensions. One whether

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Speaker 1: there's accepted medical use and number two, um, what's the

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Speaker 1: abuse liability. Schedule one is for substances with no accepted

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Speaker 1: medical use but high abuse liability. You then moved to

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Speaker 1: Schedule two, and this is where things like a lot

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Speaker 1: of the opioids and methamphetamine and cocaine are at there's

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Speaker 1: accepted medical use at least in narrow circumstances, but there's

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Speaker 1: high abuse liability. And then all of the other schedules

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Speaker 1: as we go down to the Schedule three to Schedule four.

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Speaker 1: The cat definition to all of those is there's accepted

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Speaker 1: medical use and there's abuse liability, but less so than

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Speaker 1: the higher category. So Schedule three has less abuse liability

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Speaker 1: than the substances, and Schedule two and four less than three, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: The problem is there is no category for mild or

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Speaker 1: moderate call it what you will, mild abuse liability, but

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Speaker 1: no accepted medical value, which is the case right now

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Speaker 1: because and this was determined through judicial precedent in the

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Speaker 1: earlier years, not at the beginning of the c s

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Speaker 1: A the Control sums Is Act, but through the courts afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Accepted medical value has become to be defined as explicit

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Speaker 1: f d A approval, So by definition, regardless of the science,

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Speaker 1: until it reaches has FDA approval for a disorder, it

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Speaker 1: has no accepted medical use. But right now, again there's

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Speaker 1: no category for you know, no accepted medical use, but

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Speaker 1: mild to moderate abuse potential, So it has to remain

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Speaker 1: right now in Schedule one, which is absolutely absurd. This

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Speaker 1: also a catch twenty two aspect of this, because they

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Speaker 1: talked about accepted medical use, which requires that they approval.

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Speaker 1: But then if you look at something with merril wanted's

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Speaker 1: medical value forever and ever of the government was throwing

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Speaker 1: up obstacles right allowing it to be approved in that way,

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Speaker 1: and even today marijuana persist in Schedule one. And then

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Speaker 1: you think about things like pharmaceutical heroin, right, which is

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Speaker 1: now being prescribed to people who have been addicted to

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Speaker 1: street heroin and half dozen countries in Europe and Canada,

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Speaker 1: you know, clear evidence from abroad of its medical value.

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Speaker 1: It's also approved for management of pain in some countries,

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Speaker 1: but once again still in Schedule one. Right now on

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Speaker 1: the thing I see, you know, you look at the

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Speaker 1: drug like fentanyl, which is you know, it's death rate,

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Speaker 1: it's deadliness in America in recent years and in Canada

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Speaker 1: has been astronomical, and it's properly not in Schedule one

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Speaker 1: because it does have legitimate medical value. And so in

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Speaker 1: a way that almost seems like there's a bias and

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Speaker 1: maybe in favor. You know, you can have a fentanyl

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Speaker 1: or cocaine with our little problems associated with them in

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Speaker 1: Schedule two allowed to be prescribed and limited medical conditions,

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Speaker 1: but then these drugs in Schedule one that just I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me they should basically eliminate. Is there

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Speaker 1: any basis at all? Really are having a category of

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Speaker 1: schedule one gosh? I mean you really are getting to

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Speaker 1: the question of, in one sense of should there be

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Speaker 1: a controlled Substances Act? Well, let me bring you back here.

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Speaker 1: So the research at Johns Hopkins. I mean, one of

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Speaker 1: the things is that you're at a research institute which

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Speaker 1: you know, and both you personally and your colleagues, you know,

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Speaker 1: have experience in administering all sorts of controlled substances and

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Speaker 1: illicit what would otherwise be illegal drugs, not just to animals,

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Speaker 1: non human animals, but to human beings, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins they're giving you know, not just psilocybin now,

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Speaker 1: but also I think cocaine and amphetamine and even heroin

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Speaker 1: to to human subjects in very controlled circumstances. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I've been principal investigator or lead scientists

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Speaker 1: on studies administering a number of these substances, methamphetamine, cocaine,

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Speaker 1: and particularly our group, the Behavioral Pharmacology Research Unit, it's

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Speaker 1: been an operation for for almost a half century. I mean,

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Speaker 1: all of the substances you've mentioned, all of those drug

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Speaker 1: classes um, you know, we're experts at administering them to

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Speaker 1: human beings under the right conditions, and it's all about

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Speaker 1: what the appropriate conditions are, you know, for s a

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Speaker 1: administering cocaine or administering psilocybin, and those conditions are different

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Speaker 1: across these different drugs given their different risk. But you know,

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Speaker 1: in the early years, I mean back, this is actually

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Speaker 1: before you and I even met. But in the late

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Speaker 1: nineties early two thousand's, I was involved in an effort

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Speaker 1: to get heroin prescription trials going in the US and

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Speaker 1: Canada the way that they had been doing in in Europe,

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Speaker 1: you know, and prescribing pharmaceutical heroin in a clinic setting

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Speaker 1: to people who had been struggling with addiction to the

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Speaker 1: street heroin, right, and there were huge health benefits to

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Speaker 1: their switching from street drugs into legally produced and prescribed

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutical heroin. And so this group we we eventually called

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Speaker 1: ourselves NAOMI. WHI stood for the North American Opioid Medication Initiative,

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Speaker 1: And among the professors who participated group was one of

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Speaker 1: or colleagues fairly distinguished drug researcher named George Bigelow. And

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Speaker 1: so I was able to get a little funding and

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Speaker 1: to do a couple of little pilot studies, one up

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Speaker 1: in Canada and one of Johns Hopkins, where I think

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Speaker 1: George was involved in seeing whether or not longtime Heroin

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Speaker 1: user street Heroin users could tell the difference between pharmaceutical

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Speaker 1: heroine or delouded hydromorphone right in a control, double blind study, right.

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Speaker 1: And what he found in this small study was, in fact,

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Speaker 1: I think that people could not tell the difference. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: think you ever published the damn paper. But what struck

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Speaker 1: me at that time was that Johns Hopkins, together I think,

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Speaker 1: with Columbia and Wayne's State, which at that time had

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Speaker 1: a drug program headed by the former head of the

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Speaker 1: National Student on Drug Abuse Bob Schuster, were among the

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Speaker 1: few places in the country which were administering not just

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Speaker 1: schedule to drugs like amphetamine and cocaine to human subjects,

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Speaker 1: but also administering Schedule one drugs. Do I have that right? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And in fact I do. I suspect those data were

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Speaker 1: published with hydromorphone because I either that or I have

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Speaker 1: a really good memory from presentation that George Bigelow has given,

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Speaker 1: because I could see those graphs in my head In fact,

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Speaker 1: it's just striking to the pharmacologist nerd in me, you know,

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Speaker 1: with with the left right adjustment on the dose effect

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Speaker 1: curve to use my nerdy pharmacology lingo, they're identical, you know,

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Speaker 1: hydromorphone and heroin. In other words, whether you're administering three

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Speaker 1: milligrams for it to achieve a certain effect or thirty

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Speaker 1: milligrams ultimately like trivial, right, like you give what however

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Speaker 1: much you need to give to achieve that certain effect.

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Speaker 1: You lay the curves on top of each other, and

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Speaker 1: it's they're the same drug, which is really getting back

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Speaker 1: to what we're talking about earlier. Hydromorphone is what scheduled

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Speaker 1: to you know, but basically, by any any level of science,

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Speaker 1: these are the same drug. If you're talking about a

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Speaker 1: pharmaceutically pure um supply all right, well, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: the basic point that if you were to snap your

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Speaker 1: fingers and all the people around America getting hydromorphones allowed

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Speaker 1: it in a hospital setting, we're suddenly getting heroin. Nobody

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Speaker 1: would have really diff prints. And conversely, if you can

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Speaker 1: snap your fingers and all the people taking uh heroin

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Speaker 1: illegally or somehow getting uh you know allowed it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they also won't know the difference, right, that

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Speaker 1: one was a drug that's essentially demonized in the broader culture,

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Speaker 1: the other is the one that's proceeds in a medicalized environment.

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Speaker 1: But I think the key point here was that Hopkins

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Speaker 1: seemed to have some experience, together with a few other

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Speaker 1: research institutions, in allowing or getting permission to do research

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Speaker 1: with Schedule one drugs on human beings. And I wondered

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Speaker 1: if that's one of the reasons why Johns Hopkins. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously the fact of Rolling Griffith's being there is being

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Speaker 1: a sort of pioneering research in this area. But I

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Speaker 1: wonder if that played a role in Johns Hopkins emerging

428
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: as a leader in this area as well, that there

429
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 1: already was a university experience in doing research with Schedule

430
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: one drugs, which is notoriously difficult to get permission for

431
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: but has always been technically legally possible. Right, Yeah, I

432
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:03,160
Speaker 1: certainly think that was uh most likely and necessary. I mean,

433
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: you could have technically done it without it, but practically

434
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: a necessary but not sufficient condition. Um So there's not

435
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: a whole lot of folks that have had that experience

436
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned Wayne State, which you know STEP programs you know,

437
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: still still running strong, and a few others around the

438
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: country that have very strong human behavioral pharmacology lab programs

439
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: with a minister these types of drugs, including Schedule one drugs.

440
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: But you know, ours was the only group that went ahead,

441
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: and in the early days at least, you know, so

442
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: you had to have the desire to do this kind

443
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: of crazy thing, which you know, twenty years ago it

444
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: did sound kind of crazy, like you know it. It

445
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: sounded more like like a career killer to be interested

446
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: in in psychedelics. You know, good luck getting a grant

447
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,239
Speaker 1: in that, good luck rising through the promotion pathway at

448
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: a place like Hopkins. That's very demanding. So so listen

449
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 1: as I understand it. You know, you're at University of Remon,

450
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: you're doing your graduate work. You know your mentor there

451
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: is Warren Bickle, a very prominent drug researcher. You're thinking,

452
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: how nice it would be due to psycholics research. You

453
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: land up at Johns Hopkins and you find out that,

454
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: you know, Roland Griffin is this distinguished drug research or

455
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, been working on cocaine, nicotine, a whole range

456
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: of other drugs is actually interested in doing something on psychedelics.

457
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: So what was that like for you in that moment,

458
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 1: like fifteen years ago. Where it really started was even

459
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: before that, my undergraduate advisor had gone to school with

460
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: Warren Bickle, who you mentioned was my graduate advisor and

461
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: who was a really big deal, not in psychedelics but

462
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 1: in drug research in general and addiction research. And when

463
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: I literally talked to him on the phone at a

464
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: phone interview for the University of Vermont to be a

465
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: greet his graduate student, he said, Matt, if you do

466
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 1: if you come here, if you do well, you go

467
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: to Hopkins the Behavior of Pharmacology Research Unit where I

468
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: did my post doc in the nineteen nineties, And you

469
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: do a post doctor and that's the path, and these

470
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: are the conferences you go to and this is the

471
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: post ocuteke and blah blah blah. You know, he very

472
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 1: much from the very again like I hadn't even gone

473
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: there yet, you know, He's like, if you do grad school, here,

474
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: here's what you do your post doc. And so fast

475
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: forward several years. Had done well in grad school with him,

476
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 1: and and I had and I had met Roland at

477
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: conferences and whatnot. And and so I had sort of

478
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: an informal interview, like you know, being a couple of

479
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: years out from finishing and but but but this was

480
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: sort of the formal interview where I came down and

481
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: visited you know, the lab at Hopkins and there for

482
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 1: the total reason that rolling was just known as being

483
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, the one of the world's most important caffeine research.

484
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: He demonstrated the withdrawal syndrome of caffeine and humans. Lots

485
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: of nicotine research, tons of research on sedative hypnotics, played

486
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: a strong hand in developing the abuse liability methods that

487
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: the FDA uses to evaluate new medications that might have

488
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: abuse liability. So just a legend. And the behavioral pharmacology area,

489
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: particularly human behavioral pharmacology. So it was that stuff that

490
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: was the attraction, you know. And and a strong behavioral

491
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: basis to all of the drug stuff, you know, strong

492
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 1: behavioral psychology basis to ana rising drug effects, which is

493
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: very consistent with my perspective and the training that I have.

494
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: And so but he tells me there, you know, with

495
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: his office door closed when I'm interviewing, and um, he's

496
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: kind of swears me to secrecy. I don't know, it

497
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 1: might have been my firstborn that he he wanted me

498
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: to swear, but it was really it was like really serious,

499
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: and Rolling is an intense dude. And I mean like

500
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: he's like he's looking at you in his eye across

501
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: from crossed from the desk, and and and it swearing

502
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: to secrecy. He's you know, he's got this. He has

503
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: just started this just study with high doses of psilocybin

504
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: looking at spiritual experiences in spiritually interested people. And you know,

505
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: I'm just like, get the funk out of here, you know,

506
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: like like well I really like really you know, and

507
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: he didn't want it in the public, uh, anything in

508
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: the public yet because he thought, and I think very wisely,

509
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: that if it had gotten out there, that the study

510
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: might have been shut down prematurely, that there might have

511
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: been sort of sort of this hysteria about it. So

512
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: he did he's very quiet and getting it approved and

513
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: running the study. So anyway, I promised to keep that

514
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, you know secret, and then there was another

515
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: you know, a couple of years had to you know,

516
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: stay secret until that first study was was published. And well,

517
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that struck me, I

518
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 1: mean that first study that rollingk with this and William Richard.

519
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: Do you mentioned Bill Richards, who has been you know,

520
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: key in this field for decades and Bob Jesse, who

521
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: has kind of been a quiet behind the scenes force

522
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: and fellow. I don't think I know. McCann published that

523
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: article in a distinguished journal about psilocybin and mystical experience,

524
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: and I remember wondering, like, in fact, I think you're

525
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: actually acknowledged as a young colleague who's makes some comments

526
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: on this study. And I remember thinking, why did they

527
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: start off with his study about psychedelics and mysticism, Like

528
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: why wasn't a psychedelics and alcoholism or psychedolics and depression,

529
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: or psycholics and PTSD or the things you're seeing talking

530
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: about now. But I think what I'm beginning to understand,

531
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong about this, so tell me, is

532
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: that it's because that mystical experience and being able to

533
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: validate a quote unquote mystical experience through the scientific method

534
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: turns out to be crucial in understanding why psychedelics is

535
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: so valuable, psycholics are so valuable in all these other

536
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: areas in treating depression and PTSD and anxiety. And you

537
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: name it. I mean, is that right and where they

538
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: think of strategically in that way or am I just

539
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: speculating off base here? So you know, I think it

540
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: turned out such that that was a very useful consequence,

541
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: But I would I have to actually say no with

542
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: the caveat behind this that as we we've described, I

543
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: showed up once that study had started. So I'm filling

544
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: in the blanks to speaking for you know, Roland uh

545
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: who certainly was the heavy player in terms of making

546
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: this this decision. Um it really is because he was, Um,

547
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: I think he would he would endorse this is correct

548
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: as as just absolutely obsessed with understanding transcendental experiences in

549
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: the human being from his own meditation practice and from

550
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: other interests. Just this idea that people report on certain

551
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: drugs that they're describing these states that are purported to

552
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: be indistinguishable to some of these states that people only

553
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: achieve after years of developing a meditation practice and sometimes

554
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 1: never achieving those states despite really trying to develop those

555
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: practices or in these sort of once in a lifetime

556
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: life changing experiences that are our Our world's history and

557
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: religion and literature is is filled with whether it's you

558
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: know Ebenez or Scrooge or uh Saw on the Road

559
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: to Damascus, these kind of extraordinary experiences that kind of

560
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: transform people's lives. The whole idea that you could like

561
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: increase the chances of that having by by throwing in

562
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: something into someone's stream that's going to have effect on

563
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 1: a subtype of serotonin receptor. I mean, that's really it,

564
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, like not that the research is going to

565
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: be able to validate the ontological validity or nature of

566
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: those experiences, but but what's going on there, like what

567
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: like these these states that people have been writing about

568
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: from different traditions for thousands of years, these extraordinary experiences,

569
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,959
Speaker 1: and to be clear, I'm talking about outside of drug use,

570
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,719
Speaker 1: both including but the large majority outside of drug use.

571
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: But the idea that psychedelics are a way to kind

572
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: of turn the NAB up on the likelihood of those

573
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: types of experiences and then we can study them and

574
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: do all kinds of things with them. We'll be talking

575
00:31:50,000 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: more after we hear this ad. When you start doing studies,

576
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: I guess you and folks on YU and other institutions

577
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: looking at the value of psychedelics in helping people deal

578
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: with the anxiety and depression involving struggling with cancer or

579
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: even terminal illness. I mean, for these things to work

580
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: in helping people through such fundamentally transformative and maybe life ending,

581
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, passages in their life, they're just has to

582
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: be something. There has to be something almost mystical or

583
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: something maybe not, but I mean mystical at the core.

584
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: It's part of it explaining why psychedelics are working as

585
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: effectively as they are. Very often that yes, yes, and

586
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: there are exceptions. It's not a perfect correlation, but yeah,

587
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: when it really works, chances are you have one of

588
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: these full monty mystical experiences where they're describing this complete

589
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 1: sense of oneness with the universe and the timelessness and

590
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: spacelessness and the noetic quality. You know, the person just

591
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: gribing it. And sometimes when like you just you just

592
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 1: start checking off the categories in your head and they're

593
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: putting it into their own words and whatnot. But god,

594
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: they just like check check check, you know, like you

595
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: just when you see the real deal, it's just it's

596
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's always such a great reminder about

597
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: why we're doing this, But there's this this sense that like, yeah,

598
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: that that is a and I get scientifically, I don't

599
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 1: want to say it's necessary or critical, because we do

600
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: see people with lower There's also we've played with this.

601
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: It may be that an insightful experience is a complementary

602
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: but but distinct type of experience, where you can have

603
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: an insightful experience that that's not, let's say, with lots

604
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: of personal realizations that aren't necessarily of the mystical variety.

605
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: So there's other things going on, but certainly for for

606
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the biggest psychological factor that seems to be uh involved

607
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: and and probably causing, playing a role in that causal

608
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: chain of these really transformative experiences seems to be these

609
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: mystical states. Yeah. So the reason that you're saying that

610
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: people obviously do derive benefits even when they don't get

611
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: into that full blowing mystical state, but that there is

612
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: some correlation between the intensity and maybe I don't know

613
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: whether the beauty is the right word of the mystical

614
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: state occasioned by the psychelic use and being able to

615
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 1: treat the condition right, Yeah, it's in the way I

616
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: look at it. It's it's amazing enough that the subjective

617
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,959
Speaker 1: experience that we we measure like about six hours after.

618
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: So so I'm basically when it wears often before they

619
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: go home. The nature of the subjective experience there is

620
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: it's amazing that there's any correlation, any relationship between you know,

621
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: the reductions in their cigarette smoking six months later, or

622
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,959
Speaker 1: reductions in their cancer cancer related depression and anxiety six

623
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: months later. But those aren't perfect correlations. Um. So, yeah,

624
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 1: you do see people with you in somebody. You know,

625
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: you don't get every aspect. Sometimes you don't the oneness,

626
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: but you get some of the ineffability, and you get

627
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: a little bit you know, you get shades of you know, timelessness,

628
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: let's say, for example, and it's and I should say

629
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: this is not I totally consider us in our infancy

630
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: and even understanding this construct of mystical experience. I mean,

631
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: it's it's it's something to work with and and we

632
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 1: have ways to measure it. But like other subjective experiences,

633
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: you know, we're ultimately measuring just that what people are

634
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:32,439
Speaker 1: reporting about their experience. You know, in Michael Pollan's book,

635
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: he quotes, I don't know if you regret this or

636
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: not or not that, but he says, yeah, imagine have

637
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: talked about if there's about psych psycholics. It's almost like

638
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: the dope slap effect, right right. I mean there I

639
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 1: could thank Michael for that highly scientific sounding, um theoretical concept.

640
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, like you know, and I think it it

641
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: came and we talked several times during the course of

642
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: those years when he was working on the book. But

643
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: I think I mentioned this in UM in London. Uh,

644
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: We're both there for a psychedelics meeting, and and we

645
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: had dinner and after a few glasses of wine, he

646
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 1: keeps pushing that's I've learned. That's a good technique that

647
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: you're a journalist wanted, you know. But he's like, how

648
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: does this really work, Matt, how does this you know?

649
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,760
Speaker 1: And and and it's just like people are dope slap

650
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: out of their story. It's like and and that's the commentity,

651
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: like whether that story is like you're stuck in depression

652
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: and I'm a failure and I'm just wired the wrong

653
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: way and God's punishing me and all of this these

654
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: you know, or it's oh, I'm just a smoker. I've

655
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: tried a million times. I quit. I'm not gonna be

656
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: able to quit. I started so young, it's just my

657
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: brains just used to it. Blah blah blah blah blah.

658
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: Story story, story, you know, yeah, good luck keep telling

659
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: yourself that and expecting to step out of that, you

660
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: know pattern. But people are stuck in these suboptimal patterns.

661
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: And I think of it all his addiction, whether it's

662
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: a nominal substance use disorder addiction, or it's addiction to

663
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: a certain way of thinking, and but whether it's depression

664
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: or it's uh, substituted disorders. It's like there's both behavioral

665
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: and you know, emotional cognitive manifestations. It's it's primarily behaviorally

666
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: defined and an addiction by behavior, you know, like you're

667
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: taking the substance, but obviously with the cognitive and emotional

668
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: um uh you know, whole you know um syndrome that

669
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: surrounds it. And and just the opposite with the depression.

670
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: So I see these as sort of like very much

671
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: more related disorders than than modern psychiatry would would would admit.

672
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: And I think one of the cool derivative benefits of

673
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: psychedelic research is they may because they seem to be

674
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: working for these different disorders and and and dope slapping

675
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: people out of their story, they're perhaps helping us to

676
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: understand the nature of these disorders. What are those transagnostic

677
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: commonalities between the supposedly separate disorders. You know, there was

678
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: something about that quote that reminded me of the story

679
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: about Bill Wilson, right. You know that one of the

680
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: founders of alcoholics anonymous and who you know, many people

681
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: will know the story that in his later years he

682
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: begins to experiment with psycholics may mccameras lst or not

683
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: and starts to talk about how this could be useful

684
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: at helping people in a achieve the kind of spiritual

685
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: self awareness that is an essential part of freeing themselves

686
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: of their addiction to alcohol. I mean the Wilson obviously

687
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,760
Speaker 1: was persuaded by his colleagues a day to stop talking

688
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: about that, but it seemed like it was a fundamental

689
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 1: early insight analogus to the dope slap effect you're talking

690
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: about here, right, And I think it's important to remind

691
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: people of that history and that the fact that he

692
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: advocated for it, so after so many decades of the

693
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: existence of a a this thing that he was foundational

694
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: and creating, and part of the dogma that built up

695
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: is no you know, you know, medication or substance use,

696
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: you know, you know, as part of treatment period. But

697
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: I mean here he was his experiences were so profound

698
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: that I mean he told folks, Yeah, folks that don't

699
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,760
Speaker 1: get that, that whole thing about giving up to something

700
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: bigger than yourself, like like, here's something for them, right,

701
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: Like they can they can at least have a shot

702
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: at getting that step if they try this under the

703
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: right conditions. I mean, it's just I'm just so impressed

704
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: that he even made that attempt, you know, at the time,

705
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, it's unfortunate, but it's good to remind

706
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: folks of well he didn't I guess during an error

707
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: in the fifties, when are really interesting people, famous people, right,

708
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: we're experimenting with LSD or or mescal and or psilocybin.

709
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: I think, right, it was the first psychelic renaissance back

710
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: in the late fifties early sixties before it got shut down.

711
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: And then right now, see re emerging folks like Carry

712
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: Grant were saying they were getting LSD in therapy and

713
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: it was amazing, you know, I mean, lots of celebrities.

714
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: Then we're talking about early you know, having had this

715
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: therapy and that it really benefited them and you know that.

716
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, folks, forget that history. It's like that

717
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: this is before it showed up on the street at all.

718
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: You know, there's another quote that you in Michael's book

719
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: about where you said that in some of Speaks, doctors

720
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: and researchers play the same role as shamans and elders.

721
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: And on the one hand, you know, you're warning against

722
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: the guru complex that can come into the whole psychedelics

723
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: therapy area and and the need for professionals in this

724
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: area to stay grounded in scientific integrity and professional therapeutic integrity.

725
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: But you do make the analogy to shaman's and elders,

726
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: and I wonder if you could just elaborate on that

727
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: a bit. I think the commonality is that we have

728
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: to place these substances are best used, most optimally used

729
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: in in a in a in a rich cultural context,

730
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: one in which there's ideally sanctioned use. There are experts

731
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: and there's a framework for using them. There's sort of

732
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: a lot of commonalities there. You know, the whole idea

733
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: that a lot of us may have been ex bosed

734
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: in this society. You know, something one does when they're

735
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: a teenager led by another clueless teenager. It's the idea

736
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: is like, no, no, this is something that you actually

737
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: get the society's experts if it's a young person doing

738
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: it there with the elders of that society of whatever type,

739
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: whether it's in in the modern era, we're talking about,

740
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, the professional someone with a you know, someone

741
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 1: who was a psychiatrist or a psychologist, etcetera. UM. In

742
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: the clinical context, so there are some commonalities, but I

743
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: think there's a whole lot of dangers and over um, like,

744
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: we can't pretend that we're we're shaman, right, that's not

745
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: our tradition in modern medicine. If psilocybin's approved as a

746
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 1: as a therapeutic, I think there's all kinds of dangers

747
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: and sort of adopting frameworks that were not experts in

748
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: that we don't you know, have a claim of of

749
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: that cultural tradition and there's nothing right like, we have

750
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: our own culture, and there's a whole lot of wisdom

751
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: in these sort of subcultures that we have, so that

752
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: that the ethics that are taught within the practice of

753
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,240
Speaker 1: medice and within clinical psychology, within social work, within nursing,

754
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, these sort of the professional boundaries and the

755
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: framework that is that exists and is being developed for

756
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: psychedelic therapy. I mean, you know, this is our sort

757
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: of like our our modern day I don't want to

758
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: say there's no, no, not perfect terms because I say

759
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: modern day, but like indigenous society still exist. And I

760
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 1: don't want to say western because that doesn't you know,

761
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: you see what I'm doing at But like whatever we

762
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: call modern medicine, you know, we bring psychedelics into modern medicine.

763
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: There's gonna be some you know, commonalities with shamanistic practicals,

764
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 1: but not much. And we have to have the right

765
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: Goldilocks level of of yes, you know, there are those

766
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: some kind of common wisdom lessons, but we also gotta

767
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: rely on on the on the strength of our own

768
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 1: cultural traditions, uh that are supervising the use of these substances.

769
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: And and we don't want to be insulting to other

770
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: cultures by pertaining that we're part of something we're not.

771
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, I mean, obviously you have

772
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: huge optimism here. I saw you voted saying that it

773
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: seems fair to characterize psycholic therapy as a paradigm shift

774
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,959
Speaker 1: in psychiatric treatment, and that, aside from therapeutic psycholics hold

775
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: incredible potentially, you said, as tools for psychological and neuroscientific inquiry.

776
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: I mean, so, do you really see this revolutionizing psychiatry

777
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: within the next generation. Yeah, And in fact, you know

778
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: that that second part you said, Ethan, really you know,

779
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: makes it an even larger statement in the sense that

780
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: not only I think it's gonna like transform psychiatry, but

781
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 1: even that kind of small potatoes compared to what it's

782
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: really what it's poised to really tell us, you know

783
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: about like the nature of the mind. I mean, that's

784
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: i mean, arguably the most important thing we could possibly

785
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: ever know, right, you know, because it underlies everything else.

786
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think it's poised that psychedelics are poised

787
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: to be a paradigm shift in psychiatry. Does that mean

788
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: that they're gonna work for everyone? Know, you know, doesn't

789
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: mean that there that there aren't any risks to their use, no, um,

790
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: But I do think so based on the data, there's

791
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: a good shot that they're gonna be able to help

792
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: a larger portion of people for a number of disorders

793
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: who haven't been helped by traditional you know, existing treatments.

794
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: Including medications, and the other aspect of them being paradigm

795
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: shifting is that the treatment model is one where you're

796
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: only a ministering one two or three times and you're

797
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: seeing effects that are lasting in many cases, you know,

798
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: six months a year, and presumably for a lot of

799
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: folks like the rest of their lives. So that's the

800
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: paradigm shift, especially because we're getting to the psychological underpinnings

801
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: of these disorders. Tobacco addiction is more than just you know,

802
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: quelling the response at the nickotine receptor. It's about the

803
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: role of this substance is playing in your life, the

804
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: priorities in your life, the examples you're setting for your kids,

805
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 1: all these things that run through your mind when you

806
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 1: tell yourself you want to quit smoking, you know, and

807
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: and that's just you know, quote unquote just smoking. I mean,

808
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: that's not even like you know, heroin addiction or heavy

809
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: alcohol addiction, which you know, the tobacco is more deadly

810
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: in the long run. You know, these are other addictions

811
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 1: with stronger destruction of quality of life. But I'm curious

812
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 1: in your research, right, it's been almost entirely about psilocybin,

813
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: and mostly one sees psilocybin, and then to something said

814
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: m d M A quasi psychedelic as the two principal

815
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: drugs of investigation and the two that are most likely

816
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,320
Speaker 1: to be approved in the next few years for treatment

817
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: of PTSD in the case of m d M A

818
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: and for treatment of attractable depression in the case of psilocybin.

819
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: But I'm curious, and I've heard people say, well, the

820
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: problem with l s D is it's a lot like um,

821
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,719
Speaker 1: you know, uh, psilocybin. But you know, because the experience

822
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 1: is like, you know, twice as long, if not more.

823
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: Just simply connecting research with it, I mean, having to

824
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: pay the clinicians and keep people there and the whole thing.

825
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: It just makes it usually more onerous. But I'm curious,

826
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: are you looking at do you think you do you

827
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,840
Speaker 1: see yourself looking at other psychedelics? And are the reasons

828
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: why I don't hear you talking as much about d

829
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 1: MT or ketamine or mescalin. YEA, so absolutely interested in

830
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: these other psychedelics. The UM In the short term, uh so, Uh,

831
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 1: we're going to be starting a study of LSD in

832
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: the treatment of chronic pain. UM. We're probably within a

833
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: couple of months from starting that study. So we're at

834
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: that sort of the last steps of hopefully getting that approved.

835
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: It's with the f d A you know right now,

836
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 1: but fingers cross as we moved through that process. I

837
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 1: absolutely think you know that well. I would say, you

838
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: know the time course, you know, the five or six

839
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: our time course for psilocybin is is a big reason

840
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: why a lot of the modern research has has usial

841
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: cyber rather than LSD. But frankly, the most important reason,

842
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 1: at least at the beginning, was that LSD was more

843
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: controversial now pharmacologically, like right there, Other than the time course,

844
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: they're basically identical in terms of any practical in any

845
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: risk benefit ratio analysis. I've heard you refer to se

846
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 1: these drugs and I think some others. Is the classic psychedelics?

847
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: What are the classic psychedelics? And how does that How

848
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: is that difference in the non classic psychedelics. Yeah, it

849
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: means that they activate a subtype of serotonin receptor in

850
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:16,919
Speaker 1: the brain, the serotonin two A receptor. But people will

851
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 1: recognize when I start to list what these classic psychedelics are,

852
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: that they basically feel the same, or if you've heard

853
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: or experienced them yourself, so so psilocybin, l S D,

854
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: mescalin and and and d m T, which is in ayahuasca.

855
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: Those substances more or less they feel similar to each other.

856
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: People now smoke d m T is going to be

857
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: more intense, But when one takes d MT in the

858
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: form of ayahuasca um, which is really active, it's very

859
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: much in that category of those others, the L S

860
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: d UM, psilocybin, mescalin um, and then so those are

861
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: sort of the core, you know, the classic psychedelics, the

862
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: ones that aren't classic psychedelics. A couple of big categories there.

863
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: One are the n M d A antagonists, so the

864
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 1: ketamine the PCP family, and then another big one. It's

865
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: sort of in a class by itself in terms of

866
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: what you people actually take out out there in the

867
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: real world. But m D m A, so it's a

868
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: serotonin releaser, so it's it's it's a serotinergic psychedelic. In

869
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: other words, it has effects on serotonin like the classic psychedelic,

870
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: but it interfects interacts with the serotonin system in a

871
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: different way. Rather than activating and mimicking serotonin as a

872
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 1: subtype of serotonin receptor. It causes serotonin to be released

873
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: from a number of of of receptors, and so for you,

874
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 1: do you see yourself doing research in the future on

875
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: d MT or kennemine or gin. Yeah. Absolutely. We did

876
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: the first blinded research with salvon orna, which is another

877
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: you could consider it a non classic psychedelic. It's an

878
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: opioid antagonist. UM. That's very very in one sense, very

879
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: similar to d M T and five mouth oxy d

880
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: M T V smokable triptomine psychedelics. UM. Salvinorin a is

881
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 1: smokable and that's how we minister it will vaporize UM.

882
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: So I have a lot of interest in these Yeah, mean, gosh,

883
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,479
Speaker 1: who couldn't. Who wouldn't be interested in a compound where

884
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: someone like smokes it and then a few minutes later

885
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: starts talking about seeing aliens. I mean, if you're interested

886
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: in behavior of pharmacology, it's like, what the hell like?

887
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 1: That's yea. So absolutely I'm fascinating not only in terms

888
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: of the just understanding those effects, but but also their therapeutics.

889
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 1: But absolutely, I mean the reason the research has largely

890
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: been with psilocybin is just one of precedent and one

891
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 1: of I've recently made the argument and the pitch of

892
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:36,240
Speaker 1: the FDA. Hey, look, twenty years with psilocybin has proceeded

893
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: safely with the right you know, uh safeguards. Hey, it's

894
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,360
Speaker 1: now time to to do research with LSD because in

895
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: fact there's more of a safety record still with LSD.

896
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: Far more people were given LSD in those earlier years. Opinion.

897
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard people say, and I don't know

898
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: if it's true or not, that one thing about I

899
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: began is that whereas most of the psychedelics, mostly what

900
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: they're doing is they're, as you put, a sort of

901
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: sort of resetting the story, breaking an old destructive narrative

902
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 1: right through that mystical inside or other types of inside

903
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 1: or whatever it might be, especially when done in the

904
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 1: therapeutic context. But that I be gain maybe does that,

905
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 1: and it does something else to the human organism, unlike

906
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: the other psychedelics, um that may have a more lasting impact.

907
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: Is there anything to that or do we just not

908
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: know there might be? There might be, and in fact

909
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: it maybe not just the human organism. And the thing

910
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,959
Speaker 1: that's actually pretty compelling is in is in the rat

911
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: that even the the what you see in the rat

912
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 1: is that after I be gained, there's there's a normalization

913
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: of the meso limbic dopamine system. I'll translate that. What

914
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: that means is that the dopamine is a neurotransmitter that's

915
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: involved with reward and it's basically thrown out of whack

916
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: with heavy levels of addiction. So instead of having mild

917
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: fluctuations that regulate behavior, you see these white, wild fluctuations

918
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: of a lot of dovamine and then like nothing, and

919
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: you almost no dovamine, and then a lot again. You know,

920
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: so these wild fluctuations um which you get more of

921
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 1: these wild fluctuations even when you get a rat addicted

922
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: to you know, an opioid. But but after I begin

923
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 1: you see a normalization in other words, of narrowing. Instead

924
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: of wildly fluctuating, it's fluctuating within a normal range of

925
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: you know, it goes a little bit up and a

926
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 1: little bit down, which it's supposed to do. That might

927
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: be basically the rat version of you know, the person

928
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: saying that there you know, what do they say with

929
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: ibogaine it's an addiction interrupter that they just feel like

930
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: their addiction has is gone. You know, they're not at

931
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: this crazy low where they're at this low hedonic state

932
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: where they're willing to do anything to get themselves out

933
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,479
Speaker 1: of it. So now I will say, though I would

934
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: like to see more research. We don't know necessarily that

935
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: drugs like psilocybin don't do this to at least a degree,

936
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: I'd like to see more of these drugs in a

937
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: head to head comparison. I have seen Kate some cases

938
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: where and it's not the norm, but but where folks

939
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: will say even the physical withdrawal from smoking that they've

940
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: gotten basically no withdrawal. I mean when we're thinking, say,

941
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: let's talk focus about addiction, addiction to different substances, and

942
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 1: there's anything substances. Obviously addiction could be two behaviors in

943
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: ways of thinking that are destructive as well, but some

944
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: form of dependence that's self destructive. Let's summarize addiction in

945
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,839
Speaker 1: that way. Do you do, you do your gut sense

946
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: or Some of the research suggests that certain types of

947
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 1: substances are gonna be better or worse for certain types

948
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: of addictions, so that ones that you know have a

949
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 1: kind of withdrawal, you know, whether it's nicotine or or

950
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: or opioids, or for some people alcohol if you don't

951
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: do it every day. UM that maybe some psycholic substances

952
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: will better for those addictions, whereas substances like cocaine or

953
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: others where there's a kind of you know, radical up

954
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: and down and maybe less the daily need uh for

955
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: the drugs, that other psycholic substances would be better for

956
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: dealing with stimulants. What do you think I would not

957
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: make that prediction now, I my speculation is that that

958
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 1: at least within the classic psychedelics, that yes, there's there

959
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: are certainly variations and how there's a coloring of different

960
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:25,240
Speaker 1: effects across these different substances. But I my working hypothesis

961
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: is that therapeutically, there's that they all have the same

962
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 1: thing in common. Now, again this is speculation. I could

963
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 1: be wrong about that, um, but but there that there's

964
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: nothing as specific such as, oh, well, psilocybin is going

965
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: to be better help people quit smoking, but you know,

966
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: mescaline is going to be better to help people quit cocaine.

967
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: The mechanisms by which they're ultimately working, I think the

968
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: meaningful uh level of analysis are these the these sort

969
00:53:56,640 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 1: of profound psychological transformations related to the subjective experience and

970
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: I think that's you know, potentially there with all of

971
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: these substances, So I don't I think there's probably more

972
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 1: of a future entailing way different ways to use these substances,

973
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,719
Speaker 1: you know, So not just you know, differences between molecules,

974
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: but different ways of using There might be more of

975
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: a potential difference between let's say, using you know, psilocybin.

976
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, uh oh gosh. At one extreme we

977
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: haven't even explored in the modern era. Let's see how

978
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: it looks as a psychedelic therapy versus a psycholitic in

979
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 1: other words, meaning a high dose, were overwhelming dose where

980
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: the person is quiet and then we talked about it afterwards,

981
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: which is most of the modern research with psychedelics, or

982
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: one where we give a lower dose and facilitate talk therapy.

983
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we could go back to the older research,

984
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: and I mean that was the predominant model in Europe.

985
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: We don't know that that doesn't work better, So we

986
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 1: can do that even within the you know, so called

987
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: psychedelic or high dose research. You know, like like with

988
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: the treatment of addiction with smoking, we've used cognitive behavioral therapy.

989
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 1: Michael Bogan shoots treating alcohol use disorder has used motivational

990
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 1: enhancement therapy. Is what is one better than the other?

991
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, I see that as maybe perhaps just as important,

992
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: perhaps even more important than differences between compounds. The one

993
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: caveat I would throw into it, though, I do think

994
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 1: if there's a difference, uh, it might some addictions might

995
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 1: require more a stronger dose, but it wouldn't really depend

996
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: on what compound. But some might require just a longer experience.

997
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,919
Speaker 1: So I do think in some sense there's a chance

998
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 1: for LSD to be more therapeutically impactful simply because the

999
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: experience is longer, and there's a greater opportunity that any

1000
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: given twenty minutes during that entire experiences is going to

1001
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: be a profoundly meaningful experience. Let's take a break here

1002
00:55:52,360 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 1: and go to an ad M. Well, let me ask

1003
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: you this shift shift gears a little bit right here,

1004
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: which is that I mean, you were just in the

1005
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: news recently because you headed up this study on it

1006
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: using psilocybin for smoking cessation, just got a significant grant

1007
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: from the National Student on Drug Abuse. And you know,

1008
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 1: as I understand it, you were initially turned down and

1009
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: then they came back and said, oh, it turns out

1010
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: we have some money to fund this, and it's just

1011
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: happened recently, and it's the first grant I think to

1012
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: fund psychedelics research apart from Kennemy, which is a legal

1013
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: psychedelic but it's the first one to do it with

1014
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,560
Speaker 1: psilocybin or any other sort of drug. And so I

1015
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: have a bunch of questions about that. I mean, first

1016
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 1: of all, with respect to the National Student Drug Abuse

1017
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,799
Speaker 1: why has it taken them so forever long to do

1018
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: this and why do you think they did it finally recently? Well,

1019
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,879
Speaker 1: I think, you know, kind of going back to an

1020
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 1: earlier part of our conversation, you know, perhaps strategic starting

1021
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: off with the focus on mystical experiences with the psilosiban

1022
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: research might have may have not have been the most

1023
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 1: strategic in terms of moving it in a medical pathway

1024
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: for NIH funding. I don't know, I'm just being I'm

1025
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 1: speculating there, but you know, perhaps if there was something

1026
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: you know, more boring that you know, where the research

1027
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: crept up, and maybe they would have been more likely

1028
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: to fund the clinical research earlier if but but at

1029
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: the same time, a lot of the world wouldn't have

1030
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: been interested this you know, maybe Michael Pollen wouldn't have

1031
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: written his book that's you know, drastically increased interested in

1032
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: this area had you know, we and others not focused

1033
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: on mystical experience. So you know, it's a little hard

1034
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: to you know, kind of you know, yeah, yeah, to

1035
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: critique that history. But but yeah, perhaps that's some of it.

1036
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: And and and might kind of the mystical aspect might

1037
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: highlight the idea that oh this somehow a new a

1038
00:57:57,720 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: g thing, and it's kind of about you know, hippies

1039
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: talking about astral planes and whatnot. I didn't, come on, men,

1040
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,959
Speaker 1: We're talking here about a scientific agency that has every

1041
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: ability to look at the vast research in the fifties

1042
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: and sixties and a little bit of research that since then,

1043
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: knowing that there was real promise there. I mean, there's

1044
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 1: no reason. I mean, yes, that's the cultural compact text

1045
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: and hippie dippiness. But when you look at the amount

1046
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: of you know, the all the interesting stuff that came

1047
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: out about psycholics and and alcoholism and a whole range

1048
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: of other conditions back in the day, um, you know,

1049
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: it's I mean, I thought, I really quite frankly think

1050
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: that when people reflect back on the role of NAIDA

1051
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: National stud and Drug Abuse in dealing with drug addiction.

1052
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 1: They're gonna see this closed mindedness with respect to psychedelics

1053
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 1: until just the last few months really as really a

1054
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: major lost opportunity, and that probably one of the reasons

1055
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 1: why people have continued to suffer so long from drug addiction,

1056
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: when there were things that could have been really helpful

1057
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: out there, but they just weren't doing um. But obviously

1058
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: Nora Volca, the head of NIDA, seems to at it now.

1059
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious where there are a lot of

1060
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: other efforts to get funding from night of beforehand they

1061
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: just kept getting shot down, or to researchers like yourself

1062
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: and roll In others that of the universities just think

1063
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't even worth trying. We had a few efforts here,

1064
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: and we've had you know, and there have been a

1065
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 1: few others of close colleagues in the psychedelic field, you know,

1066
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,440
Speaker 1: outside of Hopkins, and there have been several efforts and

1067
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 1: they've all and some of them have done really well scientifically.

1068
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: And for those not familiar, it's it's it's typically a

1069
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: two stage process where you have scientific reviewers who were

1070
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,680
Speaker 1: independent of like. So, for example, I've served as a

1071
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 1: reviewer for ni H. I don't work for ni H,

1072
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: but i H gets scientists out there, and back before

1073
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: the pandemic, they would all fly them together to d

1074
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: C or whatever. These days it's on zoom but um,

1075
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 1: and you evaluate the grants and then you get a score.

1076
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: That's only the first step then, regardless of whether you

1077
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: get a great score or a horrible score. Then the

1078
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: institution looks at it, and it could get a great

1079
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 1: score and they could decide not to fund it if

1080
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: if it's on in their priority mission you know, if

1081
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: it they don't want to do it basically, or it

1082
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: can have a marginal score like yeah, not great but

1083
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: maybe kind of good enough, and they can fund it

1084
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: if it's something they really want to do. So there

1085
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: had been multiple of those grants into either like really

1086
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 1: good or nearly perfect category that didn't get funded. Um

1087
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, involved because they involved presumably because they involved psychedelics.

1088
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: Although I wouldn't argue with your I would agree with

1089
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,160
Speaker 1: your history, with your characterization, Ethan, and that yeah, looking

1090
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: at the history, you know, like, yeah, why why didn't

1091
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 1: an i H jump in sooner? Although I do want

1092
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 1: to throw in. Though. The flip side to that is

1093
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,400
Speaker 1: the room for redemption. How thankful I that you it

1094
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: is now funded, Like, hey, this is like it's fabulous,

1095
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: and to some degree I can understand. It's like, even

1096
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: if I disagree, I can understand politically, the National Institute

1097
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: on Drug Abuse is gonna be you know, their their

1098
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: main thing is looking at at the bad aspects of drugs,

1099
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: and they they're you still thinking about psychedelics as drugs

1100
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: of abuse, and so yes, there was an uphill hurdle.

1101
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: But man, you're in a way, you're in a cash

1102
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: twenty two situation because you guys are submitting grants and

1103
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: getting near perfect scores from the scientific review process, and

1104
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: then they're getting shot down because of what they call

1105
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: priority reasons, but which are essentially political reasons and go

1106
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: to the profound politicization of drug abuse research funding in

1107
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: this country right, which has been a real tragedy and

1108
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: something that I think far too few drug researchers have

1109
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: really been fully conscious of. But at the same time,

1110
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 1: you and others aren't really in a position to openly

1111
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: criticize the politicization of that process because if you do so,

1112
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 1: it may reduce the likelihood of getting future grants or

1113
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: being asked to serve on grant review committees. So I

1114
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: think it's a you know, it's a way in which

1115
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 1: I could go on on this, and I obviously when

1116
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: I had Nora vocal on, I gave her a very

1117
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: hard time about this politicized process, which I think is not,

1118
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: you know, not what good science deserves in this country.

1119
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: But now having broken through, Matt, do you think we're

1120
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,600
Speaker 1: going to see many more grants being approved for research

1121
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:10,560
Speaker 1: by IDA for research on using psychelics for treating drug addiction? Oh? Absolutely,

1122
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: I mean, if I can do it, I mean I've

1123
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: been at it. I'm persistent people that, but you know, like, hey,

1124
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm just me, Like, if I can do it, I

1125
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: think others can do it. I mean the what I'm

1126
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 1: hopeful for is that I don't know. I think of

1127
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: myself like you know, fifteen years ago, seventeen years ago,

1128
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: early in this field, you know, I did have folks

1129
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: telling me like mentors are very such, are you sure

1130
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 1: you want to do this? There may not be a future.

1131
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: You have such a great pedigree, such a great future

1132
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: ahead of you in terms of your your career potential

1133
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: and and you know, now, I did take the gamble

1134
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: of doing the psychedelic research. But I could have gone

1135
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: the other way and said, no, I don't want to

1136
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 1: take that gamble. You know, who knows maybe if I

1137
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: had had more student loan debt that type of thing,

1138
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: and I thought, hot, I want to take that gamble.

1139
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 1: And I don't have a freaking job because you know,

1140
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: I made this decision and of this risky research. What

1141
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful for now is the young graduate students in

1142
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: the post docs that are going into they're interested in

1143
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 1: this area. They see a path forward. They see the

1144
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: fact that you know, not only the NIH grant, they

1145
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,160
Speaker 1: see that, you know, John's our Center a couple of

1146
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,480
Speaker 1: years ago got a seventeen million dollar grant, the biggest

1147
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: philanthropic gift and Johns Hopkins psychiatry department history. They see

1148
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: you know, like this, you know, NIH funding to look

1149
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: at psilocybin as a treatment for addiction. And they see

1150
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: a path forward. This isn't They see companies with like

1151
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: literally billions of dollars of investment in this area that

1152
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: are looking to fund research. So these are all these

1153
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: new developments that I'm I think the real change is

1154
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: going to come from these young people that are just

1155
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: getting in now, who are seeing this path forward, and

1156
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 1: you're just gonna get us such a larger percentage of

1157
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,200
Speaker 1: those folks who move into the field and stay into it.

1158
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 1: So I have no doubt, Like, how could it be.

1159
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: Are we going to write the history and it the

1160
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: years and say, Matt Johnson, was that only lucky sucker

1161
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,160
Speaker 1: that got that one, you know, psychedelics treatment grant and

1162
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:09,440
Speaker 1: then it all disappeared. That's not going to be the case, right,

1163
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: So I'm very hopeful. And Matt, well, I don't want

1164
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: that distinction in history. But you broke through and that

1165
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: was a key the key thing you did. And my god,

1166
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 1: if it turns out that you know, psychedelics, philocybern and

1167
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: psychedelics is incredibly effective in smoking cessation, um, I mean,

1168
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,960
Speaker 1: that's gonna be saved. Just monumental numbers of lives, you know,

1169
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: speaking of which you know. What I also like is

1170
01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:34,080
Speaker 1: the fact that in your research on Nikki, there's not

1171
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:38,200
Speaker 1: that many people interested in both psychedelics and nicotine, and

1172
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: obviously you and Roland are among the couple of researchers.

1173
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: And it's something that I've been very you know, engaged

1174
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 1: in recent years and stepping down from DPA the issues

1175
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: around tobacco harm reduction. And there's a very good journalist

1176
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: out there, Mark Gunther, who's writing both about psychedelics and

1177
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: about tobacco harm reduction. What's going on there. But you've

1178
01:04:56,200 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 1: recently sent me a very interesting paper looking at as

1179
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 1: more and more people in the tobacco control field are

1180
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: recommending that there'll be a prohibition on selling cigarettes with

1181
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,600
Speaker 1: the nicotine yields they have today, and that only low

1182
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: cigarettes with very low nicotine yields be allowed to be sold.

1183
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: You know, many people are predicting that a substantial black

1184
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 1: market could emerge, and other people are pointing out, well,

1185
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: at least the government should be promoting the cigarettes as

1186
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 1: an alternative. But could you just explain that paper you

1187
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: did and why you did it and what your find

1188
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: things were. Yeah, so we wanted the big picture. I'm

1189
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: just you know, I just think it's crazy that we're

1190
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: that we're considering a nicotine reduction hypothesis without fully considering

1191
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 1: the potential for an increased black market. I mean, it

1192
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: just flies in the in the face of all other Essentially,

1193
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: what this means is functionally eliminating nicotine from cigarettes can

1194
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,040
Speaker 1: eliminate at to zero level, but it could be at

1195
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: a functional zero near zero level. And so when have

1196
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: has society ever outlawed you know, a drug? And essentially

1197
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:10,160
Speaker 1: that's what that would be, um, I mean, it would

1198
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 1: be like you know, only being able to buy you know,

1199
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: near beer o' duels, you know, alcohols made illegal. You know,

1200
01:06:17,560 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 1: when have we ever made a substance I legal and

1201
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: not seen a drastic increase in black market? We already

1202
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 1: have a black market for tobacco. So that's the backdrop.

1203
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: So I use and I've done a lot of work

1204
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: over the years with both in lab and also hypothetical

1205
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 1: simulation methods, where in the behavioral economics framework, you you

1206
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: ask people, under certain conditions, how many folks would be

1207
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,160
Speaker 1: willing and we we found that about a third of

1208
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: the folks would be willing to engage in black market

1209
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: behavior purchase at least some of their cigarettes for the

1210
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 1: black market. And the other question is, as you increase

1211
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: the price of the legal cigarettes, the ones that have

1212
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: no nicotine in them, do black market cigarettes have the

1213
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: ability to serve as substitutes? In other words, as the

1214
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,880
Speaker 1: legal cigarettes become more expensive. Will people pick up black

1215
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: market cigarettes as a subst dude, and the data suggests

1216
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: they would, So there basically is a signal and it's

1217
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 1: hypothetical methods, So there's limitations. But before moving into a

1218
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 1: policy that's going to affect millions of people, Yeah, we

1219
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 1: need to look more, you know, more at this, at

1220
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: this potential for you know, drastically expanding a black market. Yeah. So,

1221
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,840
Speaker 1: Matt Lack, last question is you know, most research in

1222
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: American around the world on drugs that are primarily illicit

1223
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 1: is funded by the government. With psychedelics, what's different is

1224
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 1: that most of it, at least until you've got this grant,

1225
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: has been funded by you know, some of it philanthropically,

1226
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,200
Speaker 1: but a lot of it by for profits. You know,

1227
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: people are looking to make money. You know, you look

1228
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: at Compass other big investment players, who are you know,

1229
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,400
Speaker 1: putting money into universities as well. I'm curious what way

1230
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: does that affect the research um or anything around the

1231
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 1: research that you do on psychedelics as opposed to if

1232
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: all this work was being funded by the government as

1233
01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 1: opposed to philanthropists or for profit players, it raises additional contingencies.

1234
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 1: Of course, now I mean, to be clear, I think

1235
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: it's a good I mean, hey, I welcome you know,

1236
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: the companies that are jumping in that that have credible

1237
01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: plans to to to develop psychedelics through the FDA and

1238
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 1: international equivalent pathways. But you know, obviously, when you move

1239
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: into straight up into the for profit realm, like yeah,

1240
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,200
Speaker 1: you know that questions about you know, are the company,

1241
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 1: is the company going to be doing things safe? You know,

1242
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 1: are they going to maximize profit even at the expense

1243
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: of safety, which I've tried to emphasize for the field,

1244
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:33,360
Speaker 1: like is actually one and the say it's gonna be

1245
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, if people aren't kept safe, like, that's gonna

1246
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,560
Speaker 1: hurt your bottom dollar. Like if something someone's on the

1247
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: front page of the New York Times, like jumping out

1248
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,439
Speaker 1: of a window because you know they were in a

1249
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 1: psychedelic trial that what was was not handed without the

1250
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,719
Speaker 1: appropriate safeguard and someone did something and that got themselves

1251
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 1: hurt or something like, that's not good for your bottom line.

1252
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:54,679
Speaker 1: It's certainly not good for the patient. So it raises

1253
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: questions like that, questions that are already there. But obviously

1254
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:02,559
Speaker 1: the financial incent of UM just creates more of a

1255
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: concern but but you know, this is all addressable and

1256
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: to be clear again, I welcome. I mean, I'm going

1257
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: to be doing so the company of midusin Innovations Group

1258
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,800
Speaker 1: is really motivated to move forward with picking up on

1259
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 1: our smoking cessation research and and and and getting it

1260
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:20,080
Speaker 1: to people. So this is sort of this is sort

1261
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:23,519
Speaker 1: of uh independently can deal along with the sort of

1262
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:25,879
Speaker 1: the night of funding. So we're gonna be doing actually

1263
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:31,640
Speaker 1: multiple trials um uh going forward examining smoke pilcybin for

1264
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 1: smoking cessations. So so I'm I'm very hopeful that they

1265
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,400
Speaker 1: get this. You know, that this research is successful. We're

1266
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:40,160
Speaker 1: going to be helping them lead this trial um and

1267
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: then you know that it ends up helping patients. But

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Speaker 1: you know, in general, again for the you know, the

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01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: various companies, it's a different landscape. It's in some ways

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01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,720
Speaker 1: very exciting, but yeah, it's just you know, clearly there

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01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 1: are some companies that have come into the space where

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01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: you meet some folks, so you read about them and

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01:09:56,800 --> 01:09:58,639
Speaker 1: you're like, what the heck is going on here? Man? Yeah,

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01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 1: they just view this as as cannabis two point oh

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01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: in terms of the money where cannabis was wherever it

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01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: was ten fifteen years ago in terms of the big

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01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 1: money making opportunities and thinking this is the same thing,

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01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 1: and it's not the same thing unless you really know

1279
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,200
Speaker 1: this area. FDA approval is a different beast. But listen,

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01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:17,880
Speaker 1: it's been great, great reconnecting with you. It's been great

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01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: hearing you speak of these conferences. I think what you're

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01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: doing is absolutely going to be changing the world. And

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01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:25,839
Speaker 1: I think your partnership with Rowland and now you're assuming

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01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: the leadership of the Center Johns Hopkins, I mean, you know,

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01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,640
Speaker 1: more power to you. I love the frankness and the

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01:10:32,720 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: easy that you discuss all these subjects. So you know,

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01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 1: I look forward to crossing paths many, many times in

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01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 1: the future, and I hope that many of your studies

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01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:44,400
Speaker 1: turn out truly transforming the fields of psychiatry and even

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01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: more broad broadly, our understandings of consciousness and neuroscience. Thank you,

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01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 1: it's been great. You're welcome. It's been great reconnecting with

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01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: you recently Ethan and and thank you for your leadership

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01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: and drug policy and now more recently and including tobacco

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01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 1: Alyss Lisa, thank you so much. Thanks. We love to

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01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 1: hear from our listeners. If you'd like to share your

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01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:10,799
Speaker 1: own stories, comments and ideas, then leave us a message

1297
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:16,799
Speaker 1: at one eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's

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01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 1: eight three three psycho zero, or you can email us

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01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 1: at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or find me on

1300
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: Twitter at Ethan Naedalman. You can also find contact information

1301
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I

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01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman.

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01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:40,280
Speaker 1: It's produced by noa'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive

1304
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 1: producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren

1305
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: Aronovsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from

1306
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our music is

1307
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 1: by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to Avi Brio,

1308
01:11:55,960 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 1: s F Bianca Grimshaw, and Robert B. B m. Next

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01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: week I'll be talking with Kat Packer, Executive director of

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01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 1: the Department of Cannabis Regulation for the City of Los Angeles.

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01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 1: As I was doing advocacy in the City of Los

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01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,960
Speaker 1: Angeles and really trying to hold the city accountable to

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01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 1: what I felt were principles and values that we have

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01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 1: to lead with when we're talking about cannabis policy reform.

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01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:32,840
Speaker 1: I was tapped by the mayor to take on the

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01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 1: challenge of advising the city and administering its commercial cannabis

1317
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: program in August. Subscribe to Cycleactive now see it, don't

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01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: miss it.