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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.

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Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to another happy hour. As always, drink responsibly if you

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Speaker 1: choose to do so. Um and yeah, we just hope

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Speaker 1: for these to be kind of moments for you to

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Speaker 1: take in your day, hang out with us, have some

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Speaker 1: some conversations. Um, what are you sipping on, Samantha, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I went back to my trustee hat in Stormy, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is essentially dark in the Stormy with Helpanos shake up.

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Speaker 1: It's delicious, delicious. I love it. I'm jealous. I am

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Speaker 1: currently out of liquor, so I am just on the

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Speaker 1: box red wine and it's nice read. It happens every time.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, it's in your contract. I know. So

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Speaker 1: this one I tease this one and the last one

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Speaker 1: that we did. This one's a bit of an unhappy hour,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think it's going to be that sad.

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Speaker 1: It is storming outside, so it's like perfect um for

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Speaker 1: this conversation. I like, you've got the halt and Stormy,

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Speaker 1: I've got my red wine. I feel like we're setting

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Speaker 1: the scene. It's appropriate. But before we get into the meat,

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Speaker 1: of what I wanted to talk about. We do have

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Speaker 1: something we want to follow up with. On the last

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Speaker 1: Happy Hour that I did, UM, that was about kind

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Speaker 1: of how we view villains, the gender differences in villains,

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Speaker 1: and I was making the point that in our media

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Speaker 1: at large, I feel like we give a lot more

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Speaker 1: space to forgive UM and explain male generally white male trauma.

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Speaker 1: And both of us had follow up thoughts, so we

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Speaker 1: want to include it in here. M So, Samantha, what

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Speaker 1: you're telling me about a show that has a bit

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Speaker 1: of a different, a different vibe going on. So one

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Speaker 1: of the shows that I love dearly and is now

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Speaker 1: on my repeat list with Supernatural, New Girl, Parks and

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Speaker 1: rec is Once Upon a Time or Once, which is

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Speaker 1: a Disney ABC show. I think they've gotten new pickups

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Speaker 1: and I know people know it, people love it. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was the same creators that did Lost, so it

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Speaker 1: was a whole different look. But essentially it is fairy

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Speaker 1: tales that come into the reality today's world and what

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Speaker 1: does that look like? But for those of you who

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Speaker 1: may have seen it, it has snow white, uh, the

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Speaker 1: evil Queen, Prince Charming, and of course a spell like

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Speaker 1: the All the Dark stuff. You have characters like Rapunzel,

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Speaker 1: you have Rubbel, stilt Skin. You have all of those

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Speaker 1: characters as a part of it. You'll see Mulan eventually

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Speaker 1: Elsa comes through. Um. Yes, all of them come through Loot.

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Speaker 1: Which of the East come through like so many things.

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Speaker 1: The Wizard of Oz is in there, Peter Pan all

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Speaker 1: of that. But the biggest villain in the first two

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Speaker 1: seasons is Regina, who is the evil queen to snow White,

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Speaker 1: and her origin story is much different other than just

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Speaker 1: you know, being jealous of snow White's beauty. Um. But

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Speaker 1: she ends up having a redemption art at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the second season. Into the first season, you don't

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Speaker 1: see the redemption art except for that she does feel

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Speaker 1: love for someone and willing to sacrifice for someone, and

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Speaker 1: then it turns into her becoming Uh. The hero as

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Speaker 1: they say, literal plot is villain versus hero, and she's

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Speaker 1: trying to get her story rewritten to be a hero

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Speaker 1: because she can't have our happy ending until she does.

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Speaker 1: But within the entire show you have all of that.

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Speaker 1: So Selina, who plays her sister Uh as a villain,

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Speaker 1: and then she gets a redemption arc because she does live.

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Speaker 1: Also an an our featured with Hans and all of them.

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Speaker 1: But they bring in the Snow Queen, who is a

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Speaker 1: villain who also gets a redemption arc but she does die.

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Speaker 1: Like you said when we were off the mic, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the redemption arca is that they don't survive

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Speaker 1: to actually, but she she her happy enning is going

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Speaker 1: with her sisters who had who had died, so she

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Speaker 1: gets to be with her sisters essentially. But yeah, it

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Speaker 1: has the entirety of the thing, but it kind of

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Speaker 1: does the ebb and flow of redemption. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are women. That's interesting. I'll have to check

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Speaker 1: that out. I know you've you've told me about that.

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Speaker 1: And has Sebastian standard all right, yes, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about this later on a different episode.

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Speaker 1: But he plays his creepy character in this and I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, yeah, he does. And I need you

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Speaker 1: to watch that episode. Oh lord, all right, we'll do

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Speaker 1: an exchange because I'm making you watch the Mark Camel episode.

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Speaker 1: I'll watch that. It's gonna be great, Okay, okay, exchange.

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Speaker 1: I think it is perfect. One thing that I forgot

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Speaker 1: to mention um, like you said, is that the redemption arc.

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Speaker 1: I kept using that term when we were talking about

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Speaker 1: male villains and the examples I gave for I gave

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Speaker 1: a lot but three of them, like Kyle Wren, Darth Vader,

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Speaker 1: Separate Snake. They do have these redemption arcs, and in

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Speaker 1: some ways you could even argue, like the main theme

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Speaker 1: of like whatever property they're in is their redemption arc

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Speaker 1: or one of the main themes anyway, And redemption is

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Speaker 1: almost like not the correct term because what happens is

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Speaker 1: they die before they're redeemed, and then they die before

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Speaker 1: they do any of the work of possible redemption. Because

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Speaker 1: you know, if you've done these terrible things, I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying you shouldn't try to fix isn't even the right word.

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Speaker 1: But try to be better and try to do what

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Speaker 1: you can to help. But like as we've said, a lot,

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Speaker 1: forgiveness is not up to you, is up to the

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Speaker 1: person who you've wronged. So doing that hard work of

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Speaker 1: trying to be better, they never show that part. They

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Speaker 1: just are like, oh they're good now, good bye, they're dead. Um,

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Speaker 1: Like severa safe is a little different because you kind

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Speaker 1: of get this like flashback thing where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: he's been doing this, but still you don't really see it. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like mentioned like, oh, yeah, he has

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Speaker 1: been doing this stuff behind the scenes of trying to

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Speaker 1: safe Harry, but he was doing it. I mean not

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Speaker 1: to dismiss it entirely, but he was doing it for

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Speaker 1: very selfish reasons. Um. So that's the point I meant

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Speaker 1: to make and forgot to make. And I do think

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Speaker 1: that's important because it's kind of like we see all

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Speaker 1: of the terrible stuff they do and then they do

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Speaker 1: one thing where you're like, oh, okay, which is why

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Speaker 1: I think I do like Once upon a Time, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of that. It's like it's continual miscommunication all

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Speaker 1: the time and back and forth. And it does try

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Speaker 1: to contrive on the idea that there's no just playing

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Speaker 1: good and evil. People have the mix. Um. But the

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Speaker 1: fact that Regina's story of trying to become a hero

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Speaker 1: or good last pretty much the entirety until the last season,

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Speaker 1: which that was like a big turn and I just

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Speaker 1: recently watched it because I hadn't seen that part. But

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Speaker 1: it jumps to Shark, where the main young character who

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Speaker 1: starts all of this uh as like an adult and

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Speaker 1: he has his turn to do all of the work, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, in that as well, in the new

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Speaker 1: the last season, they have a new version of Cinderella

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Speaker 1: and the wicked Stepmother who was the villain, also has

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Speaker 1: a redemption arc. So there's a lot of women evil

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Speaker 1: women that kinda has a different conversation, different turn. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of the problematic things that I

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Speaker 1: have not noticed that like what, But the heroes and

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Speaker 1: the heroins are typically all women m hmm, with some

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Speaker 1: bad characters. So I do appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that's good to know because I did research this and

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Speaker 1: people had a lot of examples, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: it was stuff that, um, I kind of had to

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Speaker 1: take their word for it because I hadn't seen whatever

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Speaker 1: thing they were talking about. So in my own experience,

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Speaker 1: I do agree that generally we're way more forgiving of

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Speaker 1: male characters and female characters, especially villains. But I'm happy

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Speaker 1: to know that exists. And I know there's a big

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Speaker 1: fan base for Once upon a Time, which is why

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Speaker 1: it lasted as long as it did. Um, And people

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Speaker 1: love Regina her character. That's awesome. Yeah, And I mean

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Speaker 1: I said, like I love Hella and getting the critiques

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Speaker 1: against her, But I love Hella, and there's been plenty

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Speaker 1: of women who are villains that I have loved. I

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Speaker 1: believe her name is Lana Paria. I'm so sorry if

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Speaker 1: I'm saying this wrong, but people love her like her

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Speaker 1: because she does evil. She has this deep, gravelly voice

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Speaker 1: and when she has that smirk. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: anybody could play this character better than her, like she

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Speaker 1: does an amazing job. And of course we have Jennifer Morrison,

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Speaker 1: who used to be on a House and you know,

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Speaker 1: pretty famous, as well as Jennifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas

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Speaker 1: who was in the first Thor movie as the blonde

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Speaker 1: friend I can't remember. There you go the way I

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Speaker 1: like to eat cross restaurance, my shows and movies, I

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Speaker 1: love it. I love it. I often think of you

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Speaker 1: whenever someone's like it's this person from there, I'm like, ah, yes, Samantha, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad we had that up. Bit. So this,

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Speaker 1: this whole idea that I wanted to talk about, I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to go into it too in depth, is

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Speaker 1: something that kind of came to a fruition because I've

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Speaker 1: had a lot of family drama recently, and I just

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Speaker 1: got it in my head that like, what if I'm

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Speaker 1: the problem here, Like what if I've been looking at

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Speaker 1: this the entire incorrect way and in instances where I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to help, maybe I've been hurting and it's that

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Speaker 1: whole like from a certain point of view. Obi wan

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Speaker 1: Kenobi nonsense, I get what you're saying, man, but jeez,

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Speaker 1: and I test. I was thinking about it, and I

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Speaker 1: so one of the traits particularly in question, is I

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Speaker 1: am someone who I feel I struggle with expressing negative

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Speaker 1: emotions even when it would be healthy to do so.

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Speaker 1: And because of that, and there's a lot of reasons

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Speaker 1: for that, and I believe I've talked about it before,

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Speaker 1: but one of them is I feel like women are

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Speaker 1: generally socialized to not be negative, um, to kind of

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Speaker 1: be these like positive life of the party socializers. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to make sure everything's fine, um and move on.

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Speaker 1: And I just with some things that have recently happened,

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Speaker 1: I started getting in my head of like what if

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Speaker 1: that did so much more damage than I ever realized

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Speaker 1: when I thought I was trying to help. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, then you go down to like, well, I've

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Speaker 1: been raised to be this way, um, and how many

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Speaker 1: other women feel this way? And then like what if

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Speaker 1: the other version of the events that's people in my

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Speaker 1: orbiter telling is that I am the villain of the story. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then I got all my head of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: that makes sense for a certain extent. If you have friends,

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Speaker 1: they are going to be on your side if they're

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Speaker 1: good friends, unless you did something really terrible and then

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Speaker 1: they should rightfully call you out. So there's a part

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Speaker 1: of me that's that's like gets it. But then there's

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Speaker 1: also a part to be that has that sort of

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Speaker 1: trained women have to be liked unless you're a terrible person,

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Speaker 1: and then I don't care, But like, I have to

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Speaker 1: be liked and I have to do what's right and

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Speaker 1: I have to all these things. And we talked about

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Speaker 1: that in the episode we did on UM Villains and Heroes.

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Speaker 1: Is that you know, the story of the heroes that

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Speaker 1: they're selfless, which is fine, but it has been weaponized

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Speaker 1: against women, which we've talked about in past book clubs

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Speaker 1: and stuff. And then I just started thinking about how

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Speaker 1: that could look to other people and how that could

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Speaker 1: impact other people. So I don't know, I just I've

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Speaker 1: always tried to do like make people happy, and I

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Speaker 1: thought that was a good thing, but maybe it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: And I'm doing some real self reflection on it. Uh lately,

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Speaker 1: I think we talked about We did talk about the

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Speaker 1: fact that I said, you're the Bruno of Vancanto, meaning

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Speaker 1: the mystery that really made no sense that he was

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Speaker 1: ostracized or blamed. It really didn't make any sense other

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Speaker 1: than he was just there, but they all wanted to

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Speaker 1: place this blame on him for no reason. And of course,

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Speaker 1: and then as we've grown up and come back and reflect,

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Speaker 1: people are like, wait, you're right, You're not the problem.

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Speaker 1: We're so sorry, we just needed to blame something. And

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Speaker 1: I'm saying this as in like not knowing much, not

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Speaker 1: just knowing the bits about your life, but like sitting

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Speaker 1: with you and kind of going through it, I'm like, wow, yeah,

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Speaker 1: for me, as someone who you, you're more likely to

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Speaker 1: make it sound worse than it is, as where some

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Speaker 1: people fluff it up to try to not sound as bad.

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Speaker 1: So I'm like, it doesn't make sense. But essentially, it's

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Speaker 1: like it just happened to me. You were there and

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Speaker 1: it became a focal point and also kind of like

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Speaker 1: a lot of these stories that I get so frustrated by,

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Speaker 1: but they are miscommunicating and so because their secrets or

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Speaker 1: things that they can't be unfolded, that's things that can't

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Speaker 1: be said, Assumptions are made, and it becomes pretty big

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Speaker 1: plotline slash tragic in the overall because what you're doing

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Speaker 1: is trying to protect others, which is what happens in

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Speaker 1: these stories as well. And it's like if you got

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Speaker 1: only But of course it's not that simple. It's never

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Speaker 1: that simple. But that's that character too, of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you follow suit and that I'm trying to protect by

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Speaker 1: me protecting myself, I get hurt and get caught in

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Speaker 1: the crossfire and there's nothing I can do because you're

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Speaker 1: afraid of the results of being honest, which is a

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Speaker 1: whole different conversation, but yeah, it becomes that story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I think, I mean that is a good point

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Speaker 1: because definitely, in examining this, it is kind of a

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Speaker 1: tragedy of everybody trying to protect everybody else and it

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Speaker 1: just escalated in a terrible way. But I also have

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Speaker 1: a lot of fears that I do think are very

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Speaker 1: sexist in nature, that like, I'm afraid that, but won't

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Speaker 1: believe me when I tell them things, and that's I've

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Speaker 1: been called out for stuff, and it's like I've literally

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Speaker 1: shut down, and I'm like, I don't know how to

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Speaker 1: prove this to you, but it happened to me, like

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Speaker 1: I don't. And then then I get all in my

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Speaker 1: head about like what if my brain is messed up

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Speaker 1: and I remember remembering things and you're remembering it correctly,

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Speaker 1: like all the intricacies of memory, and that freaks me out.

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Speaker 1: But also I feel like women and marginalized people in

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Speaker 1: general are much more likely to just kind of turn

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Speaker 1: this the blame on themselves, like I should have done better,

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Speaker 1: should have done more. And so that's a part of it,

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Speaker 1: to where it's become very like and I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: get better, but it's become a very negative thing. It's

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Speaker 1: like all my failure is like a list of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're right, I did screw this up and this up

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Speaker 1: and this up and this up and all this happened

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Speaker 1: when I was a kid, and it's culminated. But um,

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Speaker 1: I think that is a part of it too, and

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Speaker 1: it just don't know. Sometimes something reaches a point where

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Speaker 1: it's so hard to to go back and talk about

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Speaker 1: it because you've just sort of part of your survival

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Speaker 1: is we don't talk about this, right, you don't talk

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Speaker 1: about Bruno. You don't talk about Bruno. But I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I I imagine a lot of people who have gone

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Speaker 1: through trauma can connect to this some wave. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we even talk about it with victim blaming. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of related to that of like you're turning it in

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Speaker 1: on yourself and then all of the the kind of

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Speaker 1: ripples and how it impacts people who weren't at the

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Speaker 1: center of whatever um trauma. You can feel guilt for

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Speaker 1: that that you brought it up, or that you talked

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Speaker 1: about it or anything. I mean, it doesn't help when

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Speaker 1: you do have people in your life that you feel

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Speaker 1: like you can't share because they're not ready to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Quote unquote. I think I told the story about I

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Speaker 1: literally got shut down because I was talking about work,

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Speaker 1: um and my work was not pretty, but I was

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Speaker 1: kind of happy and literally got chastise because I made

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Speaker 1: someone who has never felt that way before feel bad.

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Speaker 1: And again, yes, the Debbie down her content. I get it.

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Speaker 1: It's not necessarily nice and you don't want to hear

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Speaker 1: that all the time, and I do have I did

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Speaker 1: have to like absolutely filter myself, but people would ask me,

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Speaker 1: how are you, and then they would ask questions and

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Speaker 1: I am not good at fake I'm good, How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm not good. I don't want to. I don't like

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Speaker 1: that from people, so I don't give that either. But

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Speaker 1: they were also close friends of mine, and it just

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Speaker 1: was like I think at one point we were talking

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Speaker 1: about abuse and my abuse that I had gone through,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that I got mad that she had

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Speaker 1: shut me down and her husband had shut me down,

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Speaker 1: and they were there. It was just a little like

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Speaker 1: smith that really I got shut down that way, and

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Speaker 1: someone making an excuse trying to be good friends to

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Speaker 1: both of us, were like, but you know so and

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Speaker 1: so really can't deal with that stuff like that bothers.

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Speaker 1: You know, she can't handle things like that, in which

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Speaker 1: my responses, who the thinks that can? Like, I was

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Speaker 1: so angry. I was in that angry tears because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, what, if you would have asked me before

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Speaker 1: that happened to me, could I have handled it? No? Right, No,

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Speaker 1: No one gets up in the morning and say, man,

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Speaker 1: I could handle that. I can handle asaulter or violence,

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Speaker 1: Let's go. And I'm like, that's so unfair. If I'm

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Speaker 1: trusting you as my friend and you shut me down,

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Speaker 1: you're not my friend. Yeah. But because we've learned these lessons,

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Speaker 1: we have become very guarded and who we trust. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's that's part of all this stuff that

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to untangle, is because you know, we've we've talked,

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Speaker 1: we've been very open about this stuff. But a lot

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Speaker 1: of the trauma experience happy when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and I like, look back, and there are certain things

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Speaker 1: that I did and said that I hate that I

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Speaker 1: did and said because I didn't understand. I was a kid.

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Speaker 1: I didn't understand all these like you know, adult issues

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Speaker 1: around like a diction or whatever it was. And I

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Speaker 1: did shut down and I did become very closed off,

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Speaker 1: especially around like any men, any boys, uh, and kind

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Speaker 1: of combative. But I was a kid. So it's like

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Speaker 1: finding that forgiveness for yourself where like, yes, I regret

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Speaker 1: those things. I wish I hadn't done it, but I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, right, I didn't. And also who was

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Speaker 1: there to protect us? And there wasn't and that should

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Speaker 1: that should be the bigger conversation is that, yes, we

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Speaker 1: have regret as a kid. There are things that I

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Speaker 1: wish I'd never said. There are things that I wish

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Speaker 1: that wasn't done. This was my coping. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: what else to do, and instead of people seeing that

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Speaker 1: I needed help, they blamed me. Yeah, and I know

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Speaker 1: as people of trauma and childhood trauma know that conversation.

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Speaker 1: And that's the bigger Like then that was trauma on

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Speaker 1: top of trauma, right, that's the like laying awake at

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Speaker 1: night and just turning these things over and over again

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Speaker 1: into your head and thinking why couldn't have done something different?

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Speaker 1: But you were like fourteen at the time or whatever

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Speaker 1: it is. I don't know. I think, as I've said before,

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Speaker 1: I think I said it in the very first happy

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Speaker 1: hour I did on the Cinnamon Roll. I think it

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Speaker 1: was always really important to me that to believe I

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Speaker 1: could be like as stilly as it sounds, the hero

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Speaker 1: of the story. So this was pretty like I'm glad,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad, I'm thinking about it. I don't think it's bad,

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Speaker 1: but it was sort of a setback. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot mm hmmm. Yeah, And I think again, I think

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Speaker 1: those conversations are important to have about what we hold

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Speaker 1: up is like her away can won't we blanize? Um?

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, that's just something that's been on my mind. Um.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll have more thoughts. I'd love talking about

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Speaker 1: heroes and villains and all tropes they're in. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna need you to watch Once upon a Time so

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Speaker 1: we can talk about some of these characters in your

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Speaker 1: Women around the World. Oh, okay, I'm into it. How

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Speaker 1: many seasons? How big of an endeavor am I looking at?

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Speaker 1: I think there's seven seasons? All right, so an endeavor.

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Speaker 1: But all right, you can pick and choose and I

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Speaker 1: can help you out. You should do what I did

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Speaker 1: for you with Clone Wars. Send me unless first season

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Speaker 1: and then okay we can go because that that bread

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Speaker 1: is the foundation. All right, all right, I'm into it.

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Speaker 1: And all I ask in request is watch Star Wars

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Speaker 1: with me all the time and Mark Hambill and what

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Speaker 1: we did the show which I've already started, come on

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Speaker 1: and screams and I'm a terrible friend, not at all,

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Speaker 1: You're not. I'm ready perfect, perfect, Well, here's yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: m Thanks to everyone for joining us. As always, if

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Speaker 1: you have any suggestions, anything you'd like for us to

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Speaker 1: talk about pontificate on. You can send them to us,

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Speaker 1: yes our email, Stuff in your mom Stuff at iHeart

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00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: mea dot com. You can find us on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or Instagram, and Stuff I've Never Told You.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina also a

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Speaker 1: hero obviously hero, and thanks to you for listening Stuff

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Speaker 1: I Never told the production of I Heart Radio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcast from my heart Radio is the heart radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.