Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be
Speaker 2: returning shortly.
Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
Speaker 3: you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you
Speaker 3: to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding
Speaker 3: something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of
Speaker 3: time on that. It was sort of chapter one of
Speaker 3: the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents
Speaker 3: leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its
Speaker 3: role as a massive land route for migration and crime.
Speaker 3: And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair.
Speaker 3: This is particularly close to a lot of us and
Speaker 3: our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves
Speaker 3: regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people
Speaker 3: and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is
Speaker 3: not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US
Speaker 3: as we record.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend,
Speaker 2: there was a there was a large thing that occurred
Speaker 2: within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't
Speaker 2: know what you would call it, an argument between the
Speaker 2: United States and the country of Colombia about two I
Speaker 2: guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings
Speaker 2: that were deported by the United States back to Colombia
Speaker 2: and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President
Speaker 2: of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and
Speaker 2: then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs.
Speaker 2: And then it appears today as we record on Monday,
Speaker 2: January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you
Speaker 2: want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has
Speaker 2: accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just
Speaker 2: mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap.
Speaker 2: If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but
Speaker 2: it is between Central America and South America. It's a
Speaker 2: piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And
Speaker 2: that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one
Speaker 2: of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app
Speaker 2: and it's just I think it's weird for us because
Speaker 2: where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular
Speaker 2: place a sector. I guess if they call it a
Speaker 2: what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.
Speaker 3: What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way,
Speaker 3: if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just
Speaker 3: pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just
Speaker 3: pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures
Speaker 3: of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone
Speaker 3: wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either,
Speaker 3: not once.
Speaker 2: Not once. And I lived right in the heart of
Speaker 2: that area. And there are major as we speak right now,
Speaker 2: and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice
Speaker 2: operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart
Speaker 2: because one or two people within a household is just
Speaker 2: being picked up by agents and shipped off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the
Speaker 3: larger context. If you want to get some of them
Speaker 3: more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt,
Speaker 3: you can folks check out the LA Times They just
Speaker 3: came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over,
Speaker 3: It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is
Speaker 3: on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for
Speaker 3: the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can
Speaker 3: be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to
Speaker 3: navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this
Speaker 2: story is that these are human beings that at some
Speaker 2: point took a journey to get to the United States,
Speaker 2: right And whether or not they came through the dairy
Speaker 2: end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but
Speaker 2: we do know that desire to get to the US
Speaker 2: somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this
Speaker 2: area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.
Speaker 3: And there may be an episode in future evening related
Speaker 3: to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals
Speaker 3: in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the
Speaker 3: concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing.
Speaker 3: So what about this man? What if we pause for
Speaker 3: a word from our sponsors, and then we come back
Speaker 3: with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.
Speaker 4: We'll keep it.
Speaker 3: We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it.
Speaker 3: So we'll come back and give you a brief recap
Speaker 3: of the of the Darien Gap as you had set
Speaker 3: up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the
Speaker 3: conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So,
Speaker 3: as you were saying, if you if you pull up
Speaker 3: your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether
Speaker 3: that be you know something online, you can zoom into
Speaker 3: the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and
Speaker 3: you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth.
Speaker 3: Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little
Speaker 3: It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking,
Speaker 3: continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and
Speaker 3: all points north. This is the only land route to
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if
Speaker 2: you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it
Speaker 3: is literally a gap. It is the only break in
Speaker 3: the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans
Speaker 3: the like the entire left side of North and South America,
Speaker 3: which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons,
Speaker 3: the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch
Speaker 3: of road through this gap, which is a sixty something
Speaker 3: mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some
Speaker 3: will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something
Speaker 3: that looks small. I love how you pointed this out
Speaker 3: in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a
Speaker 3: regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot,
Speaker 3: it is huge.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben,
Speaker 2: or that length that would be if you connected where
Speaker 2: the last road is in Panama to the last road
Speaker 2: in Columbia, or vice versa.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern
Speaker 3: road system here comes as part of a much larger
Speaker 3: historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have
Speaker 3: tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains,
Speaker 3: but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife,
Speaker 3: the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases,
Speaker 3: nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who
Speaker 3: are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial.
Speaker 3: They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with
Speaker 3: the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from
Speaker 3: the outside who has attempted a large scale community has
Speaker 3: either died or turned back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos,
Speaker 2: you will see that there are villages, there are small
Speaker 2: pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that
Speaker 2: is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the
Speaker 2: more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern
Speaker 2: peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say,
Speaker 2: which includes humans across that border.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of
Speaker 3: the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: fulfilling the same function that you might see for a
Speaker 3: rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States,
Speaker 3: right place to get off the road, to stop traveling,
Speaker 3: to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases,
Speaker 3: and then you know places safer places to sleep, all
Speaker 3: of which come at a cost. And that's that's the
Speaker 3: important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure
Speaker 3: of size in this part of the world, and it
Speaker 3: reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities,
Speaker 3: right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers.
Speaker 3: It eats all the work of man, you know. And
Speaker 3: I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican
Speaker 3: Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples,
Speaker 3: you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively
Speaker 3: short span of time, the jungle would take them. So
Speaker 3: that's that's an active thing you're working against.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do
Speaker 2: to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that
Speaker 2: are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms
Speaker 2: and it is nuts not because not only does the
Speaker 2: jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean
Speaker 3: like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings.
Speaker 3: So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns,
Speaker 3: right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are
Speaker 3: several reasons no one's built a modern road through this
Speaker 3: area and probably won't for the near future, and all
Speaker 3: those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist,
Speaker 3: with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people
Speaker 3: are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years.
Speaker 3: There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands
Speaker 3: of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the
Speaker 3: gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they
Speaker 3: can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate
Speaker 3: any of their assets from their home country just so
Speaker 3: they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately
Speaker 3: to the United States. And we didn't talk about it
Speaker 3: too much. We'll get into this in a second, but
Speaker 3: there are This is a business. It is a business
Speaker 3: that is run by cartels with the aid and approval
Speaker 3: of state security forces in some cases. And because it
Speaker 3: is a business, they are doing the at least for me,
Speaker 3: the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which
Speaker 3: is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might
Speaker 3: get a horse, right, or we could even take you
Speaker 3: well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way,
Speaker 3: or you know, you could hop on a boat and
Speaker 3: try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I
Speaker 3: get it, I get it. I know it's a little
Speaker 3: Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go
Speaker 3: to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell
Speaker 3: one that is the best one. Why do you have
Speaker 3: to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry?
Speaker 3: Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it.
Speaker 3: That's what it is. And look, the people who are
Speaker 3: doing this, they're not wealthy.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like
Speaker 3: I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela.
Speaker 3: So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm
Speaker 3: going to just go on a fun little trip. People
Speaker 3: are doing this because they feel they must. They feel
Speaker 3: that it is a matter of survival. That's an important
Speaker 3: thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you
Speaker 3: hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience
Speaker 3: or political beliefs.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap,
Speaker 2: at least as it is known in the Darien I
Speaker 2: think it's the national forest that's right there or national park,
Speaker 2: excuse me. And that is a border like that is
Speaker 2: a border area. So when you're thinking about those state
Speaker 2: security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say,
Speaker 2: very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across
Speaker 2: and then keep others on the you know, from from
Speaker 2: traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine
Speaker 2: the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we
Speaker 3: discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known
Speaker 3: in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia.
Speaker 3: They got to the point where they do touch the government.
Speaker 3: They step on as you as you said, some things
Speaker 3: they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of
Speaker 3: security and heads of things like border control or of course,
Speaker 3: you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies
Speaker 3: can pop the tea on that one.
Speaker 2: That's one of those things I never got as a kid,
Speaker 2: when there would be jokes about a joke or an
Speaker 2: aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in
Speaker 2: imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 2: never understood any of that that was in media, all
Speaker 2: these movies that we watched as kids that adults would
Speaker 2: like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.
Speaker 3: I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed
Speaker 3: it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff
Speaker 3: that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man.
Speaker 3: I even knew like friends' parents who were import export
Speaker 3: legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far
Speaker 3: as I could tell, you know, I think they were
Speaker 3: probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on
Speaker 3: art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah,
Speaker 3: you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated
Speaker 3: and I hope I'm not the only one who has
Speaker 3: a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college,
Speaker 3: I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they
Speaker 3: sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real
Speaker 3: business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I
Speaker 3: none of these guys are carrying packages?
Speaker 2: Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?
Speaker 3: Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again,
Speaker 3: there's a lot going on here. There are some matters
Speaker 3: of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned
Speaker 3: that the Darien gap plays a big role in why
Speaker 3: Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of
Speaker 3: left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode
Speaker 3: for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin
Speaker 3: with the logical question we ended on previously. With all
Speaker 3: this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why
Speaker 3: would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy,
Speaker 3: all right. People have been trying to get in and
Speaker 3: out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that
Speaker 3: we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of
Speaker 3: desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and
Speaker 3: international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective
Speaker 3: way to move their other products, and so they didn't
Speaker 3: really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded.
Speaker 3: I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to
Speaker 3: diminish it. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because
Speaker 2: there are not a bunch like there's not a military
Speaker 2: base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side,
Speaker 2: and there's no When you think about who controls those borders,
Speaker 2: you do think about some form of official border protection
Speaker 2: force that is militarized.
Speaker 3: Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.
Speaker 2: Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do
Speaker 2: have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides,
Speaker 2: going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the
Speaker 3: last true what is sometimes called a black zone on
Speaker 3: the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to
Speaker 3: say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out
Speaker 3: to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good.
Speaker 3: And I say that too. It is a liminal space
Speaker 3: where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and
Speaker 3: the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going
Speaker 3: to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions
Speaker 3: on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing
Speaker 3: to rule of law in his lawless place is a
Speaker 3: network of drug cartels who are some of the world's
Speaker 3: most successful for profit entities up there with banks.
Speaker 2: I love your note in the event whatever I said it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to
Speaker 3: come after us. You know, if it was Josh and
Speaker 3: Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax
Speaker 3: would would care.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.
Speaker 3: This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And
Speaker 3: I know we've both been reading a lot of these
Speaker 3: amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who
Speaker 3: have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part.
Speaker 3: And you know one article that stood out, I think
Speaker 3: to all of us is from the Atlantic in August
Speaker 3: of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one
Speaker 3: by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel
Speaker 3: or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out
Speaker 3: if you have the time, because they have photographs, they
Speaker 3: have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the
Speaker 3: cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap,
Speaker 3: and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as
Speaker 3: well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson
Speaker 3: writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following,
Speaker 3: just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here,
Speaker 3: everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved
Speaker 3: by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings.
Speaker 3: They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps
Speaker 3: with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube,
Speaker 3: and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through.
Speaker 3: The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD
Speaker 3: equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat
Speaker 3: up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars.
Speaker 3: That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.
Speaker 2: Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you
Speaker 2: would find out about it. I don't know. And again,
Speaker 2: everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that
Speaker 2: someone might take if they're trying to get across a
Speaker 2: border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're just getting across a border. What what it makes
Speaker 2: me think about just with the cost alone, if you're
Speaker 2: if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the
Speaker 2: crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too.
Speaker 2: By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious
Speaker 2: jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once
Speaker 2: you get into Panama, what do you where do you
Speaker 2: go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if
Speaker 2: you are going as far north as the United States,
Speaker 2: or if you are just trying to get to you know,
Speaker 2: just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something.
Speaker 2: There's a lot more steps and a lot more money
Speaker 2: that you have to pay out.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending
Speaker 3: on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not
Speaker 3: include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor
Speaker 3: medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe
Speaker 3: helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named
Speaker 3: is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist,
Speaker 3: in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person,
Speaker 3: this happens more than once She enter team are well
Speaker 3: aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends
Speaker 3: some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations,
Speaker 3: and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people,
Speaker 3: sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the
Speaker 3: most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people
Speaker 3: simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed
Speaker 3: up in the green.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's unsettling.
Speaker 3: I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that
Speaker 3: if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower
Speaker 3: the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at
Speaker 3: least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling
Speaker 3: from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage
Speaker 3: people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you,
Speaker 3: then you are far less likely to be attacked by
Speaker 3: a gang of like five bandits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you
Speaker 2: did want to have personal protection as you went through there.
Speaker 2: I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even
Speaker 2: you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because
Speaker 2: it feels like you would need at least, you know,
Speaker 2: a machete or something as you're going through the jungle.
Speaker 2: I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because
Speaker 2: they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're
Speaker 2: just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants
Speaker 3: as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest.
Speaker 3: And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations,
Speaker 3: that's great. If you haven't, don't.
Speaker 2: Why do sherpas carry ars?
Speaker 3: I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind
Speaker 3: of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's
Speaker 3: a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with
Speaker 3: firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another
Speaker 3: liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this
Speaker 3: thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right,
Speaker 3: add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know,
Speaker 3: be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's
Speaker 3: not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees
Speaker 3: with the policy missteps that we touched on a little
Speaker 3: bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect,
Speaker 3: but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept
Speaker 3: that by making migration harder, you will limit the number
Speaker 3: of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art.
Speaker 3: It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know,
Speaker 3: if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people
Speaker 3: won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the
Speaker 3: world of crime. They'll find a way to you know,
Speaker 3: smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder,
Speaker 3: that's where it gets confused.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: If you make if you make these migration policies higher,
Speaker 3: if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting
Speaker 3: the number of people who are still going to attempt
Speaker 3: a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked.
Speaker 2: But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this
Speaker 2: Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing,
Speaker 2: which is another form you know, I off getting across
Speaker 2: a longer distance to get into the US via that
Speaker 2: import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse,
Speaker 2: to be honest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror,
Speaker 3: are they not.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're
Speaker 3: on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out
Speaker 3: right you have to have the food that you brought
Speaker 3: with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's
Speaker 3: ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one
Speaker 3: of the things you most regret not bringing more of
Speaker 3: is going to be water and it's easy to die there.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in
Speaker 3: the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have
Speaker 3: to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to
Speaker 3: figure out what you're going to tell your six year
Speaker 3: old right when they see some things that children should
Speaker 3: not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very
Speaker 3: it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot
Speaker 3: of people doing this and they don't really have a
Speaker 3: say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We
Speaker 3: found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty
Speaker 3: three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times
Speaker 3: between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground,
Speaker 3: and they found that the number of migrants in Latin
Speaker 3: America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million
Speaker 3: to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest
Speaker 3: global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during
Speaker 3: that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've
Speaker 3: said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers,
Speaker 3: and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right
Speaker 3: now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that
Speaker 3: you and I talked about that previously in Part one,
Speaker 3: because that's I think, by far and away the largest
Speaker 3: proportion of migrants.
Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was
Speaker 2: studied in those numbers that came from the what was
Speaker 2: it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked
Speaker 2: at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the
Speaker 2: Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah,
Speaker 2: over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela
Speaker 2: through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get
Speaker 2: in through Panama.
Speaker 3: And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents.
Speaker 3: And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there
Speaker 3: they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want
Speaker 3: to take an abortion, but the medical care for that
Speaker 3: is not available.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I
Speaker 2: heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over,
Speaker 2: but it's not the same at all because they were
Speaker 2: basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you
Speaker 2: can get out right now and leave everything and just
Speaker 2: get out. In this case, you know, a lot of
Speaker 2: the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state
Speaker 2: right of the country, where there are the things that
Speaker 2: human beings need are no longer in very good supply,
Speaker 2: if at all, and you just have to leave because
Speaker 2: there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military
Speaker 2: and a lot of the groups that would be considered
Speaker 2: counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying
Speaker 2: to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I
Speaker 2: gotta get out of here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may
Speaker 3: be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may
Speaker 3: demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones.
Speaker 3: And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course,
Speaker 3: who want to create their own regimes. Some of those
Speaker 3: candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you
Speaker 2: if you are a citizen of the country and just
Speaker 2: trying to live and have a family and grow a
Speaker 2: business or anything like that. It's just it's not about
Speaker 2: you in their eyes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so
Speaker 3: already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela.
Speaker 3: Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you
Speaker 3: need to be to traverse the gap. You run into
Speaker 3: the business, the big business of the golf clan. They
Speaker 3: hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything,
Speaker 3: which roots can be used by migrants as well as
Speaker 3: by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide
Speaker 3: who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So
Speaker 3: everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi
Speaker 3: Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to
Speaker 3: pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels.
Speaker 2: Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me
Speaker 2: think about state local taxes, sales taxes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that.
Speaker 3: I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is
Speaker 3: it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff
Speaker 3: outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes,
Speaker 3: they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans,
Speaker 3: they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a
Speaker 3: court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will
Speaker 3: get you off the case.
Speaker 2: Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh,
Speaker 2: who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the
Speaker 2: character you'd have to put as the judge. You have
Speaker 2: to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.
Speaker 3: The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not
Speaker 3: an eyepatch.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, maybe.
Speaker 3: Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious
Speaker 3: tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.
Speaker 2: Runs of fast food Chicken.
Speaker 3: Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke.
Speaker 3: Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no
Speaker 3: way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how
Speaker 3: much money does the clan make from just this? This
Speaker 3: is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it
Speaker 3: depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you
Speaker 3: one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will
Speaker 3: tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that
Speaker 3: the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five
Speaker 3: dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two
Speaker 3: to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly,
Speaker 3: from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust
Speaker 3: the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way.
Speaker 3: I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get
Speaker 3: in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we
Speaker 3: have to go.
Speaker 2: We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes
Speaker 2: a little bit off the top two and that's probably
Speaker 2: not calculated in.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right
Speaker 3: where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes
Speaker 3: down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it is the name of the platform. It probably is
Speaker 3: no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something
Speaker 3: at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that.
Speaker 3: That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or
Speaker 3: more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly,
Speaker 3: veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to
Speaker 3: the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million
Speaker 3: US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all
Speaker 3: profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money
Speaker 3: than that.
Speaker 2: Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah,
Speaker 3: this is just the migrant money. This is not counting
Speaker 3: the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know,
Speaker 3: this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and
Speaker 3: that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt,
Speaker 3: the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause
Speaker 3: for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take
Speaker 3: a hypothetical journey through the gap together.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven
Speaker 2: million before taxes.
Speaker 3: Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap
Speaker 3: together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew
Speaker 3: and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals,
Speaker 3: of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more
Speaker 3: than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there?
Speaker 3: First things. First, to get through it, you have to
Speaker 3: get to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again,
Speaker 2: if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to
Speaker 2: put all of your luggage into a car, then you
Speaker 2: would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good
Speaker 2: way to get there too. It is super dangerous to
Speaker 2: take that boat ride along the coast on either side
Speaker 2: of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again,
Speaker 2: that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to
Speaker 2: get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get
Speaker 2: shot at or pirated exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people
Speaker 3: who just have to get on a boat every day
Speaker 3: as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells
Speaker 3: fish at the at the local coastal market, they have
Speaker 3: probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups,
Speaker 3: right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get.
Speaker 3: It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt,
Speaker 3: is these first steps are in their own ways as
Speaker 3: dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you
Speaker 3: could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by
Speaker 3: corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have
Speaker 3: bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather
Speaker 3: is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.
Speaker 2: And then you finally get there and you get corraled
Speaker 2: kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just
Speaker 2: exactly not the one you want to be at, but
Speaker 2: the one you have to be at, or at least
Speaker 2: you feel that you need to be there. You know.
Speaker 2: That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations.
Speaker 2: So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's
Speaker 2: going to be your guide? Here is here are all
Speaker 2: the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet,
Speaker 2: you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make
Speaker 2: sure you've got enough water for your.
Speaker 3: Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point.
Speaker 3: We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas.
Speaker 3: And this is we're pulling a little bit of this
Speaker 3: from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the
Speaker 3: announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World.
Speaker 3: It is like the crowd organization is very much like
Speaker 3: that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know
Speaker 3: this following group file in here, and the groups vary
Speaker 3: in size, but they do want larger groups because it
Speaker 3: lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at
Speaker 3: least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet
Speaker 3: some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's
Speaker 3: a mix of things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on
Speaker 2: your journey there, it is, at least from the reports
Speaker 2: we've seen of human beings who have gone and now
Speaker 2: come back to report on it. There are basically a
Speaker 2: series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees.
Speaker 2: You may have seen this kind of thing before at
Speaker 2: like a national park or something where there are areas
Speaker 2: and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other
Speaker 2: times it is like color coded, so you can just
Speaker 2: be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more
Speaker 2: complex and probably a little more dangerous.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods,
Speaker 3: you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in
Speaker 3: this part of the United States, path through the wilderness
Speaker 3: may be marked with just like a strip of plastic
Speaker 3: or spray paint, you know, and if you see this
Speaker 3: spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works
Speaker 3: really well for keeping people on the right track. From
Speaker 3: what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going,
Speaker 3: keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now
Speaker 3: quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back
Speaker 3: on that blue green path. This is all explained to
Speaker 3: you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're
Speaker 3: explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various
Speaker 3: guides on the Colombian side of the border to come
Speaker 3: up to you and ask you if you want to
Speaker 3: buy something, if you want them to carry something for you.
Speaker 3: And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters
Speaker 3: are with you or they're around. So in addition to
Speaker 3: the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric
Speaker 3: or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going
Speaker 3: to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll
Speaker 3: they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path
Speaker 3: or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete.
Speaker 3: They're they're clearing the path out because it will get
Speaker 3: over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth
Speaker 2: in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go
Speaker 2: a week as I was trying to clear a couple
Speaker 2: paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a
Speaker 2: creek back there, and I gave it a week off
Speaker 2: and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine
Speaker 2: growth is so intense.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any
Speaker 3: cutsoo in your backyard?
Speaker 2: Not anymore?
Speaker 3: Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.
Speaker 2: No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.
Speaker 3: You're not bamboo fan.
Speaker 2: It's it looks great, but it is evil if you
Speaker 2: don't control where it goes.
Speaker 3: It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're
Speaker 3: immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot
Speaker 3: of care.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.
Speaker 2: Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.
Speaker 3: Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our
Speaker 3: own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own
Speaker 3: brand of products.
Speaker 2: Based in state craft, like terminology okay.
Speaker 4: Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some
Speaker 4: handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo
Speaker 4: is going, and you.
Speaker 2: See you cut it off and you think you've cut
Speaker 2: it off at its source, but no, that's not the
Speaker 2: nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.
Speaker 3: It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for
Speaker 3: this journey that people are taking, there is going to
Speaker 3: be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people.
Speaker 3: It's for a lot of folks, it may be the
Speaker 3: most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So
Speaker 3: there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb
Speaker 3: up onto a fence so they can address the crowd,
Speaker 3: and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know,
Speaker 3: let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on
Speaker 3: the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a
Speaker 3: reason we are doing this, and God is on our side,
Speaker 3: and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then
Speaker 3: you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe.
Speaker 3: But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay,
Speaker 3: we can do this, right, We've already come so far.
Speaker 3: In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came
Speaker 3: from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is
Speaker 3: just another leg of a much longer journey.
Speaker 2: And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And
Speaker 2: if we can get through this, we're good and it's
Speaker 2: not going to be that bad. Is what you're being
Speaker 2: told by the people who just took a bunch of
Speaker 2: your money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used
Speaker 3: car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're
Speaker 3: talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, this may not be a brand new Ford
Speaker 3: Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos.
Speaker 3: But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart.
Speaker 3: You know, you don't need to change the oil that much.
Speaker 3: It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires
Speaker 3: are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.
Speaker 2: We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle.
Speaker 2: It's fine, which is crazy.
Speaker 3: And then also the time how long does it take?
Speaker 3: As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing
Speaker 3: of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are
Speaker 3: often told this is a two day journey. That is
Speaker 3: not the case, and they just mean two day journey
Speaker 3: sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side
Speaker 3: and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because
Speaker 3: of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more
Speaker 3: heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more
Speaker 3: things like the you know, the resting areas if you
Speaker 3: can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt,
Speaker 3: I think it's safe for us to say that most
Speaker 3: people are not getting through there in two days.
Speaker 2: No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of
Speaker 2: stuff that you feel that you need to carry when
Speaker 2: you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen
Speaker 2: that it's often the case where you know, somebody will
Speaker 2: end a journey if they make it all the way
Speaker 2: through with half the things that they brought along with them,
Speaker 2: if not less. It gets down to essentials as it
Speaker 2: gets more grueling, uh out there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you
Speaker 3: don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration.
Speaker 3: You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do
Speaker 3: we put it in our previous recording. The kind of
Speaker 3: in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general,
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that you could cure with a
Speaker 3: trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster
Speaker 3: if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics,
Speaker 3: you know. And then people barter stuff when they run
Speaker 3: out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people
Speaker 3: just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt,
Speaker 3: what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending
Speaker 2: on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter
Speaker 2: out there, it might be just three days, it could
Speaker 2: be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that,
Speaker 2: could be like ten days.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, depend on mobility, the weather, like you said,
Speaker 3: just the luck. And that's why in the age ofbiquitous
Speaker 3: social media, remember, folks, we were disturbed to learn that
Speaker 3: this is widely advertised on TikTok and YouTube and so on,
Speaker 3: because they need those videos to look successful, to look
Speaker 3: aspirational and just like a hike. Yeah yeah. In the
Speaker 3: beginning of the route, these different cartel operatives, the porters
Speaker 3: essentially are going to be filming migrants, even talking to them.
Speaker 3: You know, look at this family boldly strolling toward the future,
Speaker 3: strolling being the key word, right, not struggling. And they
Speaker 3: do that a lot during the first day because it's
Speaker 3: a business and every piece of video that you can
Speaker 3: get showing people that, showing people who appear not to
Speaker 3: be having a terrible time, that brings more people to
Speaker 3: you later. And these guys are not out to kill everybody, obviously,
Speaker 3: they need it to be successful for this massive revenue
Speaker 3: stream to continue. I think what we should instead say,
Speaker 3: to be more accurate, is they have they have some
Speaker 3: kind of internal acceptable rate of attrition. Right, it's okay
Speaker 3: for we don't know what that is, but it's okay
Speaker 3: for a certain amount of people to die, to be robbed,
Speaker 3: to be assaulted, to disappear.
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, it's tough to go on Yelp and find
Speaker 2: first hand reviews of you know, the group that's gonna
Speaker 2: take you through the Darien Gap, Right, it's tough to
Speaker 2: see a review from somebody who didn't make it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just saying exactly that doesn't exist. So if you can
Speaker 2: make it look as though everything's easy and safe and
Speaker 2: fun and okay, and the appearance is more. It's going
Speaker 2: to bring you more revenue. And ultimately, this is a.
Speaker 3: Business and while profit driven, the porters themselves are not
Speaker 3: super villains. You can read read reports where they're trying
Speaker 3: to pass information on like please check on you know,
Speaker 3: they're going back the other way right and you're passing
Speaker 3: them and they're saying, hey, please check on this one person.
Speaker 3: We had to leave them at a rest stop or something.
Speaker 3: And I think before we get to the Panamanian side,
Speaker 3: we got to talk about that rest stop. Party stops
Speaker 3: along the route. There are there are camps you can access.
Speaker 3: The porters have brought hot dog stands seriously, refrigerators, even
Speaker 3: pool tables and Wi Fi and you can play with
Speaker 3: all of it for a fee if you are lucky.
Speaker 3: When we stop at this rest up, we may find
Speaker 3: someone from Doctors Without Borders. This is not a thing
Speaker 3: that can happen all the time, but you may find
Speaker 3: those absolute heroes out there and they may be able
Speaker 3: to assist you with the medical condition. We know that
Speaker 3: this is also an opportunity for people to get their
Speaker 3: family and their loved ones in other countries to wire
Speaker 3: them additional funds, so you pay like two dollars for
Speaker 3: Wi Fi access, You get your family member maybe in
Speaker 3: the US, to wire you some more money, and you
Speaker 3: get to check in and let them know that you
Speaker 3: are alive. And then that electronic transfer also has a
Speaker 3: fee about twenty percent, but it's still it's better than nothing.
Speaker 3: And then when you get when you get closer to Panama,
Speaker 3: you make a final payment to the Colombian side, to
Speaker 3: the cartel. And when you make the payment, at least
Speaker 3: in recent years, they give you a wristband just like
Speaker 3: a like a music festival or a dragon con. That
Speaker 3: is your proof that you paid. So now we assume
Speaker 3: we're the worst for wear, but we're alive. We have
Speaker 3: made it. Not everybody has, but we have made it,
Speaker 3: and we approach the Panamanian side of the gap.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's tough because once you get to the
Speaker 2: Panamanian side, this is where at least Human Rights Watch
Speaker 2: has reported a lot of nefarious things, maybe increasing let's say,
Speaker 2: or the chances of you know, things like being robbed,
Speaker 2: sexually abused. Yeah, it's it can't again, at least from
Speaker 2: the report, it sounds pretty heinous. It is just really
Speaker 2: tough to maybe square in your mind, because this is
Speaker 2: also where you've got a lot of the indigenous peoples
Speaker 2: that are living right along in this area. So I
Speaker 2: think not even on purpose, especially by reporters, you know,
Speaker 2: who are going out there saying this kind of thing.
Speaker 2: I think it can be maybe put together in your
Speaker 2: head subconsciously, and that is not what is happening. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I don't know how to say that correctly.
Speaker 3: No, I hear you, because there's a because people want
Speaker 3: to form connections right, observe structures, and there is a
Speaker 3: feedback loop at play that we have seen in some cases.
Speaker 3: We have to remember, for decades and decades before this
Speaker 3: was you know what people call the Migration super Highway,
Speaker 3: it was a drug trafficking super highway. There was a
Speaker 3: lot of crime and weapons trafficking as well, and the
Speaker 3: indigenous Panomanian communities just living their lives were constantly beset
Speaker 3: by drug cartels, by paramilitary groups, by people with firearms,
Speaker 3: and very little in the way of oversight. So over time,
Speaker 3: logically these communities took up arms themselves, they began practicing
Speaker 3: self defense, and eventually, this is I think the pattern
Speaker 3: connection we're talking about here, Matt. Eventually some of these groups,
Speaker 3: a minority also got involved in crime and trafficking, and
Speaker 3: then they became very you know, they were attacking outsiders.
Speaker 3: They became in some ways very similar to the villains
Speaker 3: that they were originally defending themselves against. They became the monsters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And you can read about that in
Speaker 2: some writing that the International Crisis Group has done. Yeah.
Speaker 2: They cite i think two hundred incidents of sexual violence
Speaker 2: that were reported by various aid groups inside the Darien
Speaker 2: Gap on the Panama side in the first half of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with those reports, like anything
Speaker 3: on this road, is that we have to also logically
Speaker 3: assume that the number of reported cases is much smaller
Speaker 3: than the number of actual instants, because you know, there
Speaker 3: we have to say it, a lot of times people
Speaker 3: aren't going to report things because they're worried about being
Speaker 3: the nail that sticks out, you know, being punished for reporting,
Speaker 3: worst of all, being sent back right when you've already
Speaker 3: got this far. So we know that even in the
Speaker 3: state supported migration centers there are rampant accusations of abuse,
Speaker 3: especially against vulnerable women and children. This is a heartbreaking
Speaker 3: thing to note. By this point in the journey. It
Speaker 3: is not infrequent that some travelers, particularly female travelers, may
Speaker 3: be driven into sex work to continue paying for their
Speaker 3: passage or to protect their children.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yeah, you know, we talked about the border
Speaker 2: patrol as a thing that was we didn't say non existent,
Speaker 2: let's say light, but it is. The border is protected
Speaker 2: in some ways. I didn't know about this place, Ben,
Speaker 2: There's apparently one place basically that migrants coming from the
Speaker 2: Colombian side to the Panamanian side can get through or
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3: ETRM Yeah, what is this? This is okay? So the
Speaker 3: Panamanian government has strict laws against assisting migrants, no matter
Speaker 3: where they're from, no matter where they're going, very strict
Speaker 3: laws against it. And there's one spot where you can
Speaker 3: assist these migrants coming from the Darien Gap. That is
Speaker 3: the ETRM Ray Reception Center where you can go for
Speaker 3: a minute. Right, that's a safe place you can go,
Speaker 3: you can find assistance. You cannot stay there. You are
Speaker 3: not a Panamanian citizen. This is not your new home.
Speaker 3: You will meet travel agents for lack of a better word,
Speaker 3: all around the CTRM and you pay something like forty
Speaker 3: I think it's sixty dollars. Now these are all US
Speaker 3: prices to ride across Panama on private buses. And the
Speaker 3: private buses also have an agreement or a sanctioned so
Speaker 3: they're far less likely to get attacked than your ordinary
Speaker 3: tourist charter bus. Right, And this is a thing that
Speaker 3: can happen in Central America country to country. If you've
Speaker 3: been there, you know that once you get on that
Speaker 3: private bus, you go across Panama. They take you close
Speaker 3: to the border of Costa Rica. Then you get on
Speaker 3: another set of private buses for a thirty dollars fee
Speaker 3: and you cross Costa Rica to other humanitarian facilities that
Speaker 3: are close to the border of Nicaragua, and then you
Speaker 3: meet the Nicaragua officials. Guess what, They also want money,
Speaker 3: so then you have to pay them. I think it's
Speaker 3: approximately one hundred and fifty dollars to enter Nicaragua. And
Speaker 3: then you continue your journey. And this doesn't this Dairian
Speaker 3: gap stuff doesn't involve any of that. Once you're out
Speaker 3: of Colombia, the golf clan considers your business concluded, and
Speaker 3: now you're interacting with a series of other regimes, a
Speaker 3: series of other traffickers and there are so many other
Speaker 3: dangers posed by trying to move through Mexico before you
Speaker 3: ultimately reach the US border, and a lot of people
Speaker 3: get stuck on the way. They can't go to the US,
Speaker 3: but they can't go back. This happens to a town
Speaker 3: of Venezuelan nationals. I was not aware of this, but
Speaker 3: people can be straight I did in Guatemala or other
Speaker 3: countries because they can't legally re enter Panama even if
Speaker 3: they want to go back home.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that would be the only way. Wow, that's
Speaker 2: that's terrible.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's not an ideal case. And I do think,
Speaker 3: you know, we there's so much more to explore about this,
Speaker 3: but we were talking off air, you and I ABOUTE
Speaker 3: one note that we need to hit terrorism concerns. So
Speaker 3: this pops up pretty often in recent years where someone
Speaker 3: will claim, usually a politician will claim the US border
Speaker 3: is porous and it's a national security threat because terrorists
Speaker 3: are pouring into the country. And sometimes when you look
Speaker 3: at policy papers, you'll see security analysts saying, you know,
Speaker 3: what about the Darien gap. Right, It's much easier to
Speaker 3: visit a country in South America than it is to
Speaker 3: visit the US if you're a no good nick you know,
Speaker 3: if you're coming from a different country that maybe is
Speaker 3: not so friendly with the US, where you would get
Speaker 3: high scrutiny, you know, like if you're and we're not
Speaker 3: trying to pick on anybody. This happens all the time.
Speaker 3: But let's say you're an Iranian national and you ultimately
Speaker 3: want to get to the US, and you know that
Speaker 3: it's going to be a real process right for you
Speaker 3: to land in LaGuardia, So why don't you land in
Speaker 3: Ecuador and then just travel up the gap. That's what
Speaker 3: people are concerned about because they think people are doing
Speaker 3: it for They think that people are utilizing this passage
Speaker 3: for terrorist activities. And it's a shame that's politicized so hard.
Speaker 3: But I think we should talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've got an example via the Justice Department, a
Speaker 2: former Al Qaeda fighter named Shahab Ahmed Shahab Shahab and
Speaker 2: this is in This is from twenty twenty two, So
Speaker 2: just a couple of years ago, this person was arrested
Speaker 2: by the FBI and charged with trying to carry out
Speaker 2: some form of terror based assassination against George W. Bush.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and he really thought he was doing this
Speaker 3: is not someone scoring political points in an election. This
Speaker 3: guy was living in Indiana and Ohio who was residing
Speaker 3: in the US, and he wanted to He wanted to
Speaker 3: bring terrorist forces through the Darien Gap to as you said,
Speaker 3: Matt assassinate former President George W. Bush. This was there
Speaker 3: was a lot of money on the line. You can
Speaker 3: read the can read the full story in detail till
Speaker 3: there's a lot to it. But essentially he got connected
Speaker 3: with undercover FBI and he said, look, I've already smuggled
Speaker 3: into Hasbela operatives over the gap and then and now
Speaker 3: I think we can replicate that process. So we reached
Speaker 3: out to some of his former colleagues in Iraq. They
Speaker 3: had a unit that was once called Thunder in Arabic
Speaker 3: and they they said, okay, maybe we can pay for
Speaker 3: individuals give him forty thousand each to travel to Brazil
Speaker 3: on fake visas, then go up through the gap and
Speaker 3: then you know, enact our plan to kill George W.
Speaker 3: Bush for revenge against what his administration did to our
Speaker 3: country to Iraq and he got caught. He has been
Speaker 3: cooperating with US forces. It seems that other criminal orgs
Speaker 3: are aware of the problems posed by the Darien gap,
Speaker 3: and the increase in overall migration of innocent people makes
Speaker 3: it much easier for the wolves to blend in with
Speaker 3: the sheep. You know, like the point you made, there's
Speaker 3: no passport control. Nobody's even fully out a survey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the most important part of any transaction is the
Speaker 2: Google survey that occurs afterwards.
Speaker 3: So many surveys, do you ever do them?
Speaker 2: I think I've done a couple to help out a
Speaker 2: business that I really appreciated, like I don't know, helping
Speaker 2: me out or they're really good or a deal, but
Speaker 2: it's only happened, gosh, three times in my entire life.
Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, I'll do I'll do surveys if I've had
Speaker 3: to go on the phone with someone for something complicated,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because we've we've spent time
Speaker 3: together and like, no, Jacob, you have a great week.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, and you got to shout out that
Speaker 2: in that particular human being because maybe that will actually
Speaker 2: help them on their performance review.
Speaker 3: We hope. So, yeah, because it's it's tough to be
Speaker 3: on the phone all day for your job, and anyway,
Speaker 3: the larger context there's this feedback loop. A government is unstable,
Speaker 3: Like let's take Katie. A government is unstable, it prompts
Speaker 3: residents to move. As they move, as they depart legally
Speaker 3: or not, the labor force gets depleted. That makes it
Speaker 3: much harder for the economy to recover because now if
Speaker 3: we have jobs, we don't have people to fill the jobs,
Speaker 3: which means the economy grows even worse, which means even
Speaker 3: more people.
Speaker 2: Leave, and now you need foreign aid from the United
Speaker 2: States or China.
Speaker 3: Ding ding ding hmm. Yeah. It's it's a proven system.
Speaker 3: Try not to make a judgment on it other than
Speaker 3: saying that it has been proven. Well, okay, you know
Speaker 3: what we're going long, maybe we.
Speaker 2: Maybe John Perkins, is that the guy, the economic hit man?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Confessions of
Speaker 3: an Economic hit Man. He got really into shamanism. Oh cool.
Speaker 3: So a full ninety seven percent of migrants who are
Speaker 3: willing to be interviewed by Human Rights Watch by other sources,
Speaker 3: they all said that despite all of their travels and
Speaker 3: whatever their country of origin may be, traversing the Darien
Speaker 3: Gap was by far the most dangerous part of their passage.
Speaker 3: They can't report crimes to the Panamanian North Columbian authorities.
Speaker 3: And for now, the upward trend and migration, or the
Speaker 3: overall trend in migration, is on an upward trajectory. The
Speaker 3: numbers might fall some years rise from others, but the
Speaker 3: overall trend is an or curve, and governments keep making
Speaker 3: politically self serving statements. Innocent people are going to continue
Speaker 3: to die out there in the jungle hoping for a
Speaker 3: fair shot at the American treat But how do we
Speaker 3: fix it? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2: We decide that every human consciousness is the same, and
Speaker 2: we don't allow billionaires anymore or not. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know how you fix it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I do think I will say it. Uh,
Speaker 3: I do agree with you. I don't think we should
Speaker 3: have billionaires.
Speaker 2: I don't know whatever I feel like.
Speaker 3: You get how about this? You get have we talked
Speaker 3: about this? You get a billion dollars, You reach a
Speaker 3: billion dollars by hook or by crook, whatever, and then
Speaker 3: you get like that, like that little gold play button
Speaker 3: they used to give us on YouTube or platinum. You
Speaker 3: get something like that, and instead of a play button,
Speaker 3: it has a C for capitalism, Like you have won.
Speaker 3: Here is your capitalism award, right, and and then you
Speaker 3: get to start over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can use that as capital of some
Speaker 2: sort just by having the button.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get like discounts Dave and Busters. Yeah you
Speaker 3: get you know, you get better, better seats on planes.
Speaker 3: But yeah, now you have to fly commercial.
Speaker 2: And it's a status thing. So you hit that status.
Speaker 2: Now you can get the really cool stuff that you
Speaker 2: wanted as a billionaire. But the billions actually get to
Speaker 2: go out to help, you know, make humanity and the
Speaker 2: earth better.
Speaker 3: And you get to keep a couple of million.
Speaker 2: Well for sure, and you can use it however you want.
Speaker 3: Do whatever. And I think we've kind of pretty we've
Speaker 3: solved it. We've solved it because that would help emphasize
Speaker 3: the fact that a lot of people seem to forget here.
Speaker 3: These are not souli statistics. These are people they want
Speaker 3: and deserve all the same dignity we hope all people
Speaker 3: can enjoy. But what's happening is that elephants are making
Speaker 3: war for their own reasons. When elephants make war, it's
Speaker 3: the grass that suffers.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: And with that we want to hear from you folks,
Speaker 3: thank you for taking this journey with us. We hope
Speaker 3: anyone who has traversed the gap or gone on a
Speaker 3: similar journey, we hope that you survived. We hope you
Speaker 3: and your loved ones are safe. If you have personal
Speaker 3: experience with this, please please please reach out to us
Speaker 3: in so much as you are comfortable. Let us know
Speaker 3: what's going on. You can find us online. You can
Speaker 3: find us for email, telephonic device. We're conspiracy stuff show
Speaker 3: on Instagram, conspiracy stuff on Twitter and YouTube. And if
Speaker 3: you don't sip the social needs, stay tuned for our
Speaker 3: episode about social media. Oh you give us a phone.
Speaker 2: Call, Yeah, you can't call us, As Ben said, tell
Speaker 2: us about your stories. Tell us if you know someone
Speaker 2: who's being affected by the ice stuff and the immigration
Speaker 2: stuff that's happening in the United States right now or
Speaker 2: in the country where you live. Just what is that,
Speaker 2: What is that feeling like to you? What do you
Speaker 2: see in the future as a lot of countries around
Speaker 2: the world seem to be set on a more isolationist path.
Speaker 2: Just tell us your thoughts. Our number is one eight
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know. In the message
Speaker 2: if we can use your name and message on the air.
Speaker 2: If you've got more to say then can fit in
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail. Why not instead send us a
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid sometimes the
Speaker 3: void writes back for this in particular, folks, please be
Speaker 3: safe out there. If you have any personal experience, share
Speaker 3: it with us and most importantly, more importantly, your fellow listeners.
Speaker 3: It would also be immensely helpful. Again, only if you
Speaker 3: are comfortable in sharing things that more people contemplating these
Speaker 3: journeys need to be aware of. From your experience, What
Speaker 3: do you wish you had known before you cross the gap?
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