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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 2: Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be

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Speaker 2: returning shortly.

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Speaker 3: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 3: super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 3: are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want

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Speaker 3: you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you

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Speaker 3: to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding

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Speaker 3: something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of

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Speaker 3: time on that. It was sort of chapter one of

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Speaker 3: the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents

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Speaker 3: leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its

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Speaker 3: role as a massive land route for migration and crime.

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Speaker 3: And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair.

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Speaker 3: This is particularly close to a lot of us and

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Speaker 3: our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves

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Speaker 3: regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people

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Speaker 3: and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is

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Speaker 3: not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US

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Speaker 3: as we record.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend,

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Speaker 2: there was a there was a large thing that occurred

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Speaker 2: within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what you would call it, an argument between the

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Speaker 2: United States and the country of Colombia about two I

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Speaker 2: guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings

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Speaker 2: that were deported by the United States back to Colombia

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Speaker 2: and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President

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Speaker 2: of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and

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Speaker 2: then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs.

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Speaker 2: And then it appears today as we record on Monday,

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Speaker 2: January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you

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Speaker 2: want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has

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Speaker 2: accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just

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Speaker 2: mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap.

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Speaker 2: If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but

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Speaker 2: it is between Central America and South America. It's a

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Speaker 2: piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And

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Speaker 2: that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one

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Speaker 2: of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app

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Speaker 2: and it's just I think it's weird for us because

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Speaker 2: where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular

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Speaker 2: place a sector. I guess if they call it a

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Speaker 2: what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.

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Speaker 3: What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way,

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Speaker 3: if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just

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Speaker 3: pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just

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Speaker 3: pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures

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Speaker 3: of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone

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Speaker 3: wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either,

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Speaker 3: not once.

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Speaker 2: Not once. And I lived right in the heart of

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Speaker 2: that area. And there are major as we speak right now,

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Speaker 2: and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice

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Speaker 2: operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart

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Speaker 2: because one or two people within a household is just

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Speaker 2: being picked up by agents and shipped off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the

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Speaker 3: larger context. If you want to get some of them

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Speaker 3: more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt,

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Speaker 3: you can folks check out the LA Times They just

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Speaker 3: came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over,

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Speaker 3: It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is

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Speaker 3: on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for

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Speaker 3: the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can

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Speaker 3: be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to

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Speaker 3: navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this

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Speaker 2: story is that these are human beings that at some

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Speaker 2: point took a journey to get to the United States,

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Speaker 2: right And whether or not they came through the dairy

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Speaker 2: end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but

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Speaker 2: we do know that desire to get to the US

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Speaker 2: somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this

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Speaker 2: area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.

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Speaker 3: And there may be an episode in future evening related

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Speaker 3: to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals

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Speaker 3: in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the

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Speaker 3: concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing.

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Speaker 3: So what about this man? What if we pause for

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Speaker 3: a word from our sponsors, and then we come back

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Speaker 3: with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.

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Speaker 4: We'll keep it.

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Speaker 3: We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it.

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Speaker 3: So we'll come back and give you a brief recap

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Speaker 3: of the of the Darien Gap as you had set

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Speaker 3: up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the

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Speaker 3: conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So,

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Speaker 3: as you were saying, if you if you pull up

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Speaker 3: your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether

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Speaker 3: that be you know something online, you can zoom into

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Speaker 3: the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and

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Speaker 3: you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth.

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Speaker 3: Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little

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Speaker 3: It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking,

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Speaker 3: continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and

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Speaker 3: all points north. This is the only land route to

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Speaker 3: do that.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if

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Speaker 2: you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it

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Speaker 3: is literally a gap. It is the only break in

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Speaker 3: the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans

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Speaker 3: the like the entire left side of North and South America,

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Speaker 3: which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons,

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Speaker 3: the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch

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Speaker 3: of road through this gap, which is a sixty something

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Speaker 3: mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some

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Speaker 3: will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something

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Speaker 3: that looks small. I love how you pointed this out

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Speaker 3: in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a

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Speaker 3: regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot,

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Speaker 3: it is huge.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben,

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Speaker 2: or that length that would be if you connected where

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Speaker 2: the last road is in Panama to the last road

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Speaker 2: in Columbia, or vice versa.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern

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Speaker 3: road system here comes as part of a much larger

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Speaker 3: historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have

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Speaker 3: tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains,

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Speaker 3: but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife,

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Speaker 3: the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases,

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Speaker 3: nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who

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Speaker 3: are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial.

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Speaker 3: They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with

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Speaker 3: the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from

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Speaker 3: the outside who has attempted a large scale community has

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Speaker 3: either died or turned back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos,

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Speaker 2: you will see that there are villages, there are small

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Speaker 2: pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that

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Speaker 2: is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the

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Speaker 2: more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern

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Speaker 2: peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say,

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Speaker 2: which includes humans across that border.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of

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Speaker 3: the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 3: fulfilling the same function that you might see for a

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Speaker 3: rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States,

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Speaker 3: right place to get off the road, to stop traveling,

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Speaker 3: to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases,

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Speaker 3: and then you know places safer places to sleep, all

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Speaker 3: of which come at a cost. And that's that's the

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Speaker 3: important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure

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Speaker 3: of size in this part of the world, and it

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Speaker 3: reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities,

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Speaker 3: right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers.

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Speaker 3: It eats all the work of man, you know. And

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Speaker 3: I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican

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Speaker 3: Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples,

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Speaker 3: you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively

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Speaker 3: short span of time, the jungle would take them. So

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Speaker 3: that's that's an active thing you're working against.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do

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Speaker 2: to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that

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Speaker 2: are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms

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Speaker 2: and it is nuts not because not only does the

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Speaker 2: jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean

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Speaker 3: like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings.

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Speaker 3: So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns,

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Speaker 3: right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are

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Speaker 3: several reasons no one's built a modern road through this

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Speaker 3: area and probably won't for the near future, and all

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Speaker 3: those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist,

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Speaker 3: with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people

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Speaker 3: are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years.

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Speaker 3: There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands

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Speaker 3: of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the

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Speaker 3: gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they

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Speaker 3: can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate

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Speaker 3: any of their assets from their home country just so

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Speaker 3: they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately

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Speaker 3: to the United States. And we didn't talk about it

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Speaker 3: too much. We'll get into this in a second, but

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Speaker 3: there are This is a business. It is a business

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Speaker 3: that is run by cartels with the aid and approval

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Speaker 3: of state security forces in some cases. And because it

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Speaker 3: is a business, they are doing the at least for me,

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Speaker 3: the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which

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Speaker 3: is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might

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Speaker 3: get a horse, right, or we could even take you

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Speaker 3: well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way,

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Speaker 3: or you know, you could hop on a boat and

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Speaker 3: try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I

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Speaker 3: get it, I get it. I know it's a little

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Speaker 3: Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go

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Speaker 3: to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell

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Speaker 3: one that is the best one. Why do you have

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Speaker 3: to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry?

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Speaker 3: Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it.

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Speaker 3: That's what it is. And look, the people who are

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Speaker 3: doing this, they're not wealthy.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela.

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Speaker 3: So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm

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Speaker 3: going to just go on a fun little trip. People

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Speaker 3: are doing this because they feel they must. They feel

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Speaker 3: that it is a matter of survival. That's an important

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Speaker 3: thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you

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Speaker 3: hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience

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Speaker 3: or political beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap,

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Speaker 2: at least as it is known in the Darien I

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Speaker 2: think it's the national forest that's right there or national park,

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Speaker 2: excuse me. And that is a border like that is

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Speaker 2: a border area. So when you're thinking about those state

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Speaker 2: security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say,

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Speaker 2: very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across

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Speaker 2: and then keep others on the you know, from from

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Speaker 2: traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine

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Speaker 2: the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we

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Speaker 3: discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known

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Speaker 3: in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia.

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Speaker 3: They got to the point where they do touch the government.

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Speaker 3: They step on as you as you said, some things

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Speaker 3: they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of

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Speaker 3: security and heads of things like border control or of course,

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Speaker 3: you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies

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Speaker 3: can pop the tea on that one.

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Speaker 2: That's one of those things I never got as a kid,

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Speaker 2: when there would be jokes about a joke or an

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Speaker 2: aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in

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Speaker 2: imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I

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Speaker 2: never understood any of that that was in media, all

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Speaker 2: these movies that we watched as kids that adults would

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Speaker 2: like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.

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Speaker 3: I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed

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Speaker 3: it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff

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Speaker 3: that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man.

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Speaker 3: I even knew like friends' parents who were import export

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Speaker 3: legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far

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Speaker 3: as I could tell, you know, I think they were

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Speaker 3: probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on

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Speaker 3: art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated

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Speaker 3: and I hope I'm not the only one who has

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Speaker 3: a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college,

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Speaker 3: I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they

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Speaker 3: sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real

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Speaker 3: business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I

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Speaker 3: none of these guys are carrying packages?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?

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Speaker 3: Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot going on here. There are some matters

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Speaker 3: of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned

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Speaker 3: that the Darien gap plays a big role in why

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Speaker 3: Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of

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Speaker 3: left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode

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Speaker 3: for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin

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Speaker 3: with the logical question we ended on previously. With all

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Speaker 3: this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why

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Speaker 3: would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy,

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Speaker 3: all right. People have been trying to get in and

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Speaker 3: out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that

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Speaker 3: we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of

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Speaker 3: desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and

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Speaker 3: international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective

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Speaker 3: way to move their other products, and so they didn't

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Speaker 3: really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to

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Speaker 3: diminish it. Oh yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because

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Speaker 2: there are not a bunch like there's not a military

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Speaker 2: base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side,

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Speaker 2: and there's no When you think about who controls those borders,

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Speaker 2: you do think about some form of official border protection

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Speaker 2: force that is militarized.

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Speaker 3: Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do

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Speaker 2: have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides,

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Speaker 2: going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the

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Speaker 3: last true what is sometimes called a black zone on

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Speaker 3: the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to

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Speaker 3: say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out

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Speaker 3: to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good.

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Speaker 3: And I say that too. It is a liminal space

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Speaker 3: where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and

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Speaker 3: the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going

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Speaker 3: to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions

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Speaker 3: on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing

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Speaker 3: to rule of law in his lawless place is a

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Speaker 3: network of drug cartels who are some of the world's

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Speaker 3: most successful for profit entities up there with banks.

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Speaker 2: I love your note in the event whatever I said it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to

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Speaker 3: come after us. You know, if it was Josh and

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Speaker 3: Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax

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Speaker 3: would would care.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.

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Speaker 3: This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And

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Speaker 3: I know we've both been reading a lot of these

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Speaker 3: amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who

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Speaker 3: have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part.

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Speaker 3: And you know one article that stood out, I think

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Speaker 3: to all of us is from the Atlantic in August

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Speaker 3: of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one

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Speaker 3: by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel

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Speaker 3: or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out

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Speaker 3: if you have the time, because they have photographs, they

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Speaker 3: have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the

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Speaker 3: cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap,

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Speaker 3: and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as

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Speaker 3: well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson

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Speaker 3: writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following,

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Speaker 3: just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here,

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Speaker 3: everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved

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Speaker 3: by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings.

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Speaker 3: They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps

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Speaker 3: with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube,

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Speaker 3: and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through.

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Speaker 3: The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD

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Speaker 3: equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat

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Speaker 3: up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you

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Speaker 2: would find out about it. I don't know. And again,

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Speaker 2: everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that

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Speaker 2: someone might take if they're trying to get across a

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Speaker 2: border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you're just getting across a border. What what it makes

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Speaker 2: me think about just with the cost alone, if you're

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Speaker 2: if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the

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Speaker 2: crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too.

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Speaker 2: By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious

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Speaker 2: jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once

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Speaker 2: you get into Panama, what do you where do you

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Speaker 2: go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if

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Speaker 2: you are going as far north as the United States,

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Speaker 2: or if you are just trying to get to you know,

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Speaker 2: just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot more steps and a lot more money

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Speaker 2: that you have to pay out.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending

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Speaker 3: on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not

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Speaker 3: include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor

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Speaker 3: medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know

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Speaker 3: what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe

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Speaker 3: helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named

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Speaker 3: is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist,

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Speaker 3: in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person,

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Speaker 3: this happens more than once She enter team are well

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Speaker 3: aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends

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Speaker 3: some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations,

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Speaker 3: and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people,

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Speaker 3: sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the

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Speaker 3: most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people

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Speaker 3: simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed

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Speaker 3: up in the green.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's unsettling.

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Speaker 3: I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that

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Speaker 3: if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower

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Speaker 3: the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at

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Speaker 3: least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling

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Speaker 3: from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage

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Speaker 3: people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you,

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Speaker 3: then you are far less likely to be attacked by

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Speaker 3: a gang of like five bandits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you

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Speaker 2: did want to have personal protection as you went through there.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even

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Speaker 2: you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because

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Speaker 2: it feels like you would need at least, you know,

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Speaker 2: a machete or something as you're going through the jungle.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because

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Speaker 2: they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're

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Speaker 2: just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants

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Speaker 3: as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest.

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Speaker 3: And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations,

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Speaker 3: that's great. If you haven't, don't.

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Speaker 2: Why do sherpas carry ars?

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Speaker 3: I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind

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Speaker 3: of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 3: a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with

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Speaker 3: firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another

387
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Speaker 3: liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this

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Speaker 3: thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right,

389
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know,

390
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 3: be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees

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Speaker 3: with the policy missteps that we touched on a little

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Speaker 3: bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect,

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00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 3: but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept

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Speaker 3: that by making migration harder, you will limit the number

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Speaker 3: of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art.

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Speaker 3: It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know,

398
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Speaker 3: if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people

399
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 3: won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the

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00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 3: world of crime. They'll find a way to you know,

401
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 3: smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder,

402
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: that's where it gets confused.

403
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Speaker 2: Right.

404
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Speaker 3: If you make if you make these migration policies higher,

405
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting

406
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Speaker 3: the number of people who are still going to attempt

407
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Speaker 3: a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked.

409
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Speaker 2: But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this

410
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Speaker 2: Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: which is another form you know, I off getting across

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Speaker 2: a longer distance to get into the US via that

413
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Speaker 2: import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse,

414
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Speaker 2: to be honest.

415
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror,

416
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Speaker 3: are they not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're

419
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Speaker 3: on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out

420
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 3: right you have to have the food that you brought

421
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Speaker 3: with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's

422
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Speaker 3: ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one

423
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Speaker 3: of the things you most regret not bringing more of

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Speaker 3: is going to be water and it's easy to die there.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in

427
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Speaker 3: the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have

428
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Speaker 3: to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to

429
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: figure out what you're going to tell your six year

430
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Speaker 3: old right when they see some things that children should

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Speaker 3: not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very

432
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot

433
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: of people doing this and they don't really have a

434
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We

435
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty

436
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 3: three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times

437
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty

438
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground,

439
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: and they found that the number of migrants in Latin

440
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million

441
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest

442
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during

443
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've

444
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers,

445
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 3: and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right

446
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 3: now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that

447
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: you and I talked about that previously in Part one,

448
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 3: because that's I think, by far and away the largest

449
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: proportion of migrants.

450
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was

451
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: studied in those numbers that came from the what was

452
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked

453
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the

454
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 2: Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah,

455
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela

456
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get

457
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: in through Panama.

458
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 3: And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents.

459
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah,

460
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 3: and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there

461
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 3: they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want

462
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 3: to take an abortion, but the medical care for that

463
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: is not available.

464
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I

465
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over,

466
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: but it's not the same at all because they were

467
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you

468
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: can get out right now and leave everything and just

469
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: get out. In this case, you know, a lot of

470
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state

471
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 2: right of the country, where there are the things that

472
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 2: human beings need are no longer in very good supply,

473
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 2: if at all, and you just have to leave because

474
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military

475
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: and a lot of the groups that would be considered

476
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying

477
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I

478
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: gotta get out of here.

479
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may

480
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 3: be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may

481
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones.

482
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 3: And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course,

483
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 3: who want to create their own regimes. Some of those

484
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 3: candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.

485
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you

486
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: if you are a citizen of the country and just

487
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: trying to live and have a family and grow a

488
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: business or anything like that. It's just it's not about

489
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: you in their eyes.

490
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so

491
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 3: already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela.

492
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 3: Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you

493
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: need to be to traverse the gap. You run into

494
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 3: the business, the big business of the golf clan. They

495
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 3: hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything,

496
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 3: which roots can be used by migrants as well as

497
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 3: by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide

498
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So

499
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 3: everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi

500
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 3: Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to

501
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.

502
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels.

503
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me

504
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: think about state local taxes, sales taxes.

505
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that.

506
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 3: I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is

507
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 3: it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff

508
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes,

509
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans,

510
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 3: they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a

511
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 3: court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will

512
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 3: get you off the case.

513
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh,

514
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the

515
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: character you'd have to put as the judge. You have

516
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.

517
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not

518
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 3: an eyepatch.

519
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, maybe.

520
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:33,320
Speaker 3: Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious

521
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 3: tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.

522
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 2: Runs of fast food Chicken.

523
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke.

524
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 3: Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?

525
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: I think so.

526
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no

527
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how

528
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: much money does the clan make from just this? This

529
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it

530
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you

531
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will

532
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that

533
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 3: the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five

534
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two

535
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly,

536
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust

537
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way.

538
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get

539
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we

540
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 3: have to go.

541
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 2: We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes

542
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: a little bit off the top two and that's probably

543
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: not calculated in.

544
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right

545
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 3: where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes

546
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 3: down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah,

547
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: it is the name of the platform. It probably is

548
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something

549
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 3: at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that.

550
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 3: That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or

551
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly,

552
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 3: veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to

553
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 3: the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million

554
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 3: US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all

555
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 3: profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money

556
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: than that.

557
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 2: Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.

558
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah,

559
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 3: this is just the migrant money. This is not counting

560
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 3: the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know,

561
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 3: this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and

562
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,919
Speaker 3: that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt,

563
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause

564
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 3: for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take

565
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: a hypothetical journey through the gap together.

566
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 2: Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven

567
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: million before taxes.

568
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 3: Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap

569
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 3: together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew

570
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 3: and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals,

571
00:37:53,600 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 3: of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more

572
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 3: than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there?

573
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 3: First things. First, to get through it, you have to

574
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 3: get to it.

575
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again,

576
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to

577
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: put all of your luggage into a car, then you

578
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 2: would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good

579
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 2: way to get there too. It is super dangerous to

580
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 2: take that boat ride along the coast on either side

581
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again,

582
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to

583
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get

584
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: shot at or pirated exactly.

585
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people

586
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 3: who just have to get on a boat every day

587
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells

588
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 3: fish at the at the local coastal market, they have

589
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 3: probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups,

590
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 3: right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get.

591
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt,

592
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 3: is these first steps are in their own ways as

593
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you

594
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 3: could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by

595
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have

596
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,919
Speaker 3: bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather

597
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,720
Speaker 3: is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.

598
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: And then you finally get there and you get corraled

599
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 2: kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just

600
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: exactly not the one you want to be at, but

601
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 2: the one you have to be at, or at least

602
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: you feel that you need to be there. You know.

603
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations.

604
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 2: So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's

605
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: going to be your guide? Here is here are all

606
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet,

607
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 2: you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make

608
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 2: sure you've got enough water for your.

609
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,439
Speaker 3: Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point.

610
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 3: We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas.

611
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: And this is we're pulling a little bit of this

612
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 3: from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the

613
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,720
Speaker 3: announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World.

614
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 3: It is like the crowd organization is very much like

615
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 3: that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know

616
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 3: this following group file in here, and the groups vary

617
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 3: in size, but they do want larger groups because it

618
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 3: lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at

619
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 3: least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet

620
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 3: some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's

621
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: a mix of things.

622
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on

623
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: your journey there, it is, at least from the reports

624
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: we've seen of human beings who have gone and now

625
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: come back to report on it. There are basically a

626
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees.

627
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: You may have seen this kind of thing before at

628
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: like a national park or something where there are areas

629
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other

630
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: times it is like color coded, so you can just

631
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more

632
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: complex and probably a little more dangerous.

633
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods,

634
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 3: you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in

635
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: this part of the United States, path through the wilderness

636
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: may be marked with just like a strip of plastic

637
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 3: or spray paint, you know, and if you see this

638
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works

639
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 3: really well for keeping people on the right track. From

640
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going,

641
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 3: keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now

642
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back

643
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: on that blue green path. This is all explained to

644
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 3: you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're

645
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various

646
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 3: guides on the Colombian side of the border to come

647
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 3: up to you and ask you if you want to

648
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 3: buy something, if you want them to carry something for you.

649
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 3: And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters

650
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 3: are with you or they're around. So in addition to

651
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric

652
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 3: or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going

653
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 3: to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll

654
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path

655
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 3: or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete.

656
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: They're they're clearing the path out because it will get

657
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 3: over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.

658
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth

659
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go

660
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: a week as I was trying to clear a couple

661
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a

662
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 2: creek back there, and I gave it a week off

663
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine

664
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: growth is so intense.

665
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

666
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:29,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

667
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any

668
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 3: cutsoo in your backyard?

669
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 2: Not anymore?

670
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.

671
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 2: No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.

672
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: You're not bamboo fan.

673
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: It's it looks great, but it is evil if you

674
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 2: don't control where it goes.

675
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're

676
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 3: immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot

677
00:43:58,440 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 3: of care.

678
00:43:59,080 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

679
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.

680
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 2: Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.

681
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 3: Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our

682
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 3: own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own

683
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,919
Speaker 3: brand of products.

684
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 2: Based in state craft, like terminology okay.

685
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 4: Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some

686
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 4: handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo

687
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 4: is going, and you.

688
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: See you cut it off and you think you've cut

689
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: it off at its source, but no, that's not the

690
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,959
Speaker 2: nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.

691
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for

692
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 3: this journey that people are taking, there is going to

693
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 3: be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people.

694
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 3: It's for a lot of folks, it may be the

695
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So

696
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb

697
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 3: up onto a fence so they can address the crowd,

698
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 3: and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know,

699
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 3: let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on

700
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 3: the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a

701
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 3: reason we are doing this, and God is on our side,

702
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 3: and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then

703
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,359
Speaker 3: you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's

704
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 3: very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad.

705
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 3: You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe.

706
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay,

707
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 3: we can do this, right, We've already come so far.

708
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came

709
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 3: from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is

710
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 3: just another leg of a much longer journey.

711
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And

712
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 2: if we can get through this, we're good and it's

713
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 2: not going to be that bad. Is what you're being

714
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: told by the people who just took a bunch of

715
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: your money.

716
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used

717
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 3: car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're

718
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 3: talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah,

719
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 3: you know, this may not be a brand new Ford

720
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos.

721
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 3: But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart.

722
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 3: You know, you don't need to change the oil that much.

723
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 3: It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires

724
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 3: are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.

725
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle.

726
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 2: It's fine, which is crazy.

727
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: And then also the time how long does it take?

728
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 3: As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing

729
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 3: of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are

730
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 3: often told this is a two day journey. That is

731
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 3: not the case, and they just mean two day journey

732
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 3: sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side

733
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 3: and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because

734
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more

735
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 3: heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more

736
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: things like the you know, the resting areas if you

737
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 3: can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt,

738
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 3: I think it's safe for us to say that most

739
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,959
Speaker 3: people are not getting through there in two days.

740
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of

741
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: stuff that you feel that you need to carry when

742
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 2: you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen

743
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: that it's often the case where you know, somebody will

744
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 2: end a journey if they make it all the way

745
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 2: through with half the things that they brought along with them,

746
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: if not less. It gets down to essentials as it

747
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: gets more grueling, uh out there.

748
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you

749
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 3: don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration.

750
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do

751
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: we put it in our previous recording. The kind of

752
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 3: in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general,

753
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: the kind of thing that you could cure with a

754
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 3: trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster

755
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,760
Speaker 3: if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics,

756
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 3: you know. And then people barter stuff when they run

757
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 3: out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people

758
00:48:54,200 --> 00:49:00,479
Speaker 3: just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt,

759
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 3: what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?

760
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending

761
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter

762
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 2: out there, it might be just three days, it could

763
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,839
Speaker 2: be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that,

764
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 2: could be like ten days.

765
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, depend on mobility, the weather, like you said,

766
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 3: just the luck. And that's why in the age ofbiquitous

767
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 3: social media, remember, folks, we were disturbed to learn that

768
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: this is widely advertised on TikTok and YouTube and so on,

769
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: because they need those videos to look successful, to look

770
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 3: aspirational and just like a hike. Yeah yeah. In the

771
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 3: beginning of the route, these different cartel operatives, the porters

772
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 3: essentially are going to be filming migrants, even talking to them.

773
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 3: You know, look at this family boldly strolling toward the future,

774
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 3: strolling being the key word, right, not struggling. And they

775
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 3: do that a lot during the first day because it's

776
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 3: a business and every piece of video that you can

777
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 3: get showing people that, showing people who appear not to

778
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: be having a terrible time, that brings more people to

779
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 3: you later. And these guys are not out to kill everybody, obviously,

780
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,760
Speaker 3: they need it to be successful for this massive revenue

781
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 3: stream to continue. I think what we should instead say,

782
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: to be more accurate, is they have they have some

783
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: kind of internal acceptable rate of attrition. Right, it's okay

784
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 3: for we don't know what that is, but it's okay

785
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 3: for a certain amount of people to die, to be robbed,

786
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: to be assaulted, to disappear.

787
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: Well. Yeah, it's tough to go on Yelp and find

788
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,440
Speaker 2: first hand reviews of you know, the group that's gonna

789
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 2: take you through the Darien Gap, Right, it's tough to

790
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: see a review from somebody who didn't make it. Yeah,

791
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 2: just saying exactly that doesn't exist. So if you can

792
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: make it look as though everything's easy and safe and

793
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 2: fun and okay, and the appearance is more. It's going

794
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 2: to bring you more revenue. And ultimately, this is a.

795
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 3: Business and while profit driven, the porters themselves are not

796
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 3: super villains. You can read read reports where they're trying

797
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: to pass information on like please check on you know,

798
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 3: they're going back the other way right and you're passing

799
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 3: them and they're saying, hey, please check on this one person.

800
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 3: We had to leave them at a rest stop or something.

801
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 3: And I think before we get to the Panamanian side,

802
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 3: we got to talk about that rest stop. Party stops

803
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 3: along the route. There are there are camps you can access.

804
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 3: The porters have brought hot dog stands seriously, refrigerators, even

805
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 3: pool tables and Wi Fi and you can play with

806
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:11,800
Speaker 3: all of it for a fee if you are lucky.

807
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 3: When we stop at this rest up, we may find

808
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: someone from Doctors Without Borders. This is not a thing

809
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 3: that can happen all the time, but you may find

810
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 3: those absolute heroes out there and they may be able

811
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: to assist you with the medical condition. We know that

812
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 3: this is also an opportunity for people to get their

813
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 3: family and their loved ones in other countries to wire

814
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 3: them additional funds, so you pay like two dollars for

815
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 3: Wi Fi access, You get your family member maybe in

816
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 3: the US, to wire you some more money, and you

817
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 3: get to check in and let them know that you

818
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 3: are alive. And then that electronic transfer also has a

819
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,760
Speaker 3: fee about twenty percent, but it's still it's better than nothing.

820
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: And then when you get when you get closer to Panama,

821
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 3: you make a final payment to the Colombian side, to

822
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 3: the cartel. And when you make the payment, at least

823
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 3: in recent years, they give you a wristband just like

824
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: a like a music festival or a dragon con. That

825
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 3: is your proof that you paid. So now we assume

826
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 3: we're the worst for wear, but we're alive. We have

827
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 3: made it. Not everybody has, but we have made it,

828
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 3: and we approach the Panamanian side of the gap.

829
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's tough because once you get to the

830
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 2: Panamanian side, this is where at least Human Rights Watch

831
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: has reported a lot of nefarious things, maybe increasing let's say,

832
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 2: or the chances of you know, things like being robbed,

833
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 2: sexually abused. Yeah, it's it can't again, at least from

834
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: the report, it sounds pretty heinous. It is just really

835
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: tough to maybe square in your mind, because this is

836
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: also where you've got a lot of the indigenous peoples

837
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: that are living right along in this area. So I

838
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: think not even on purpose, especially by reporters, you know,

839
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: who are going out there saying this kind of thing.

840
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 2: I think it can be maybe put together in your

841
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 2: head subconsciously, and that is not what is happening. Yeah,

842
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:28,840
Speaker 2: but I don't know how to say that correctly.

843
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 3: No, I hear you, because there's a because people want

844
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,359
Speaker 3: to form connections right, observe structures, and there is a

845
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:40,240
Speaker 3: feedback loop at play that we have seen in some cases.

846
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 3: We have to remember, for decades and decades before this

847
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: was you know what people call the Migration super Highway,

848
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 3: it was a drug trafficking super highway. There was a

849
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 3: lot of crime and weapons trafficking as well, and the

850
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 3: indigenous Panomanian communities just living their lives were constantly beset

851
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 3: by drug cartels, by paramilitary groups, by people with firearms,

852
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 3: and very little in the way of oversight. So over time,

853
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 3: logically these communities took up arms themselves, they began practicing

854
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:21,280
Speaker 3: self defense, and eventually, this is I think the pattern

855
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:25,240
Speaker 3: connection we're talking about here, Matt. Eventually some of these groups,

856
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 3: a minority also got involved in crime and trafficking, and

857
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 3: then they became very you know, they were attacking outsiders.

858
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 3: They became in some ways very similar to the villains

859
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: that they were originally defending themselves against. They became the monsters.

860
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And you can read about that in

861
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: some writing that the International Crisis Group has done. Yeah.

862
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: They cite i think two hundred incidents of sexual violence

863
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 2: that were reported by various aid groups inside the Darien

864
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 2: Gap on the Panama side in the first half of

865
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three.

866
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with those reports, like anything

867
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 3: on this road, is that we have to also logically

868
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 3: assume that the number of reported cases is much smaller

869
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 3: than the number of actual instants, because you know, there

870
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 3: we have to say it, a lot of times people

871
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 3: aren't going to report things because they're worried about being

872
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 3: the nail that sticks out, you know, being punished for reporting,

873
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 3: worst of all, being sent back right when you've already

874
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 3: got this far. So we know that even in the

875
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 3: state supported migration centers there are rampant accusations of abuse,

876
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 3: especially against vulnerable women and children. This is a heartbreaking

877
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 3: thing to note. By this point in the journey. It

878
00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:01,279
Speaker 3: is not infrequent that some travelers, particularly female travelers, may

879
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 3: be driven into sex work to continue paying for their

880
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 3: passage or to protect their children.

881
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yeah, you know, we talked about the border

882
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 2: patrol as a thing that was we didn't say non existent,

883
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: let's say light, but it is. The border is protected

884
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: in some ways. I didn't know about this place, Ben,

885
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 2: There's apparently one place basically that migrants coming from the

886
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 2: Colombian side to the Panamanian side can get through or

887
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know.

888
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: ETRM Yeah, what is this? This is okay? So the

889
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:47,479
Speaker 3: Panamanian government has strict laws against assisting migrants, no matter

890
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 3: where they're from, no matter where they're going, very strict

891
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,479
Speaker 3: laws against it. And there's one spot where you can

892
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 3: assist these migrants coming from the Darien Gap. That is

893
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 3: the ETRM Ray Reception Center where you can go for

894
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 3: a minute. Right, that's a safe place you can go,

895
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 3: you can find assistance. You cannot stay there. You are

896
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: not a Panamanian citizen. This is not your new home.

897
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 3: You will meet travel agents for lack of a better word,

898
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: all around the CTRM and you pay something like forty

899
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,840
Speaker 3: I think it's sixty dollars. Now these are all US

900
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 3: prices to ride across Panama on private buses. And the

901
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 3: private buses also have an agreement or a sanctioned so

902
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 3: they're far less likely to get attacked than your ordinary

903
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 3: tourist charter bus. Right, And this is a thing that

904
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 3: can happen in Central America country to country. If you've

905
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 3: been there, you know that once you get on that

906
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 3: private bus, you go across Panama. They take you close

907
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 3: to the border of Costa Rica. Then you get on

908
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 3: another set of private buses for a thirty dollars fee

909
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 3: and you cross Costa Rica to other humanitarian facilities that

910
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 3: are close to the border of Nicaragua, and then you

911
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 3: meet the Nicaragua officials. Guess what, They also want money,

912
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 3: so then you have to pay them. I think it's

913
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: approximately one hundred and fifty dollars to enter Nicaragua. And

914
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 3: then you continue your journey. And this doesn't this Dairian

915
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 3: gap stuff doesn't involve any of that. Once you're out

916
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 3: of Colombia, the golf clan considers your business concluded, and

917
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 3: now you're interacting with a series of other regimes, a

918
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 3: series of other traffickers and there are so many other

919
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 3: dangers posed by trying to move through Mexico before you

920
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,880
Speaker 3: ultimately reach the US border, and a lot of people

921
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 3: get stuck on the way. They can't go to the US,

922
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 3: but they can't go back. This happens to a town

923
00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 3: of Venezuelan nationals. I was not aware of this, but

924
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 3: people can be straight I did in Guatemala or other

925
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 3: countries because they can't legally re enter Panama even if

926
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 3: they want to go back home.

927
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that would be the only way. Wow, that's

928
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: that's terrible.

929
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 3: It's yeah, it's not an ideal case. And I do think,

930
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 3: you know, we there's so much more to explore about this,

931
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 3: but we were talking off air, you and I ABOUTE

932
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 3: one note that we need to hit terrorism concerns. So

933
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 3: this pops up pretty often in recent years where someone

934
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 3: will claim, usually a politician will claim the US border

935
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,480
Speaker 3: is porous and it's a national security threat because terrorists

936
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:53,120
Speaker 3: are pouring into the country. And sometimes when you look

937
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 3: at policy papers, you'll see security analysts saying, you know,

938
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 3: what about the Darien gap. Right, It's much easier to

939
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 3: visit a country in South America than it is to

940
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 3: visit the US if you're a no good nick you know,

941
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 3: if you're coming from a different country that maybe is

942
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 3: not so friendly with the US, where you would get

943
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:22,400
Speaker 3: high scrutiny, you know, like if you're and we're not

944
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 3: trying to pick on anybody. This happens all the time.

945
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 3: But let's say you're an Iranian national and you ultimately

946
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 3: want to get to the US, and you know that

947
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 3: it's going to be a real process right for you

948
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 3: to land in LaGuardia, So why don't you land in

949
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 3: Ecuador and then just travel up the gap. That's what

950
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:47,959
Speaker 3: people are concerned about because they think people are doing

951
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 3: it for They think that people are utilizing this passage

952
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 3: for terrorist activities. And it's a shame that's politicized so hard.

953
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 3: But I think we should talk about it a little bit.

954
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, We've got an example via the Justice Department, a

955
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 2: former Al Qaeda fighter named Shahab Ahmed Shahab Shahab and

956
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 2: this is in This is from twenty twenty two, So

957
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 2: just a couple of years ago, this person was arrested

958
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 2: by the FBI and charged with trying to carry out

959
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 2: some form of terror based assassination against George W. Bush.

960
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and he really thought he was doing this

961
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 3: is not someone scoring political points in an election. This

962
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 3: guy was living in Indiana and Ohio who was residing

963
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 3: in the US, and he wanted to He wanted to

964
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 3: bring terrorist forces through the Darien Gap to as you said,

965
01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 3: Matt assassinate former President George W. Bush. This was there

966
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 3: was a lot of money on the line. You can

967
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 3: read the can read the full story in detail till

968
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 3: there's a lot to it. But essentially he got connected

969
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:11,200
Speaker 3: with undercover FBI and he said, look, I've already smuggled

970
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 3: into Hasbela operatives over the gap and then and now

971
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,800
Speaker 3: I think we can replicate that process. So we reached

972
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 3: out to some of his former colleagues in Iraq. They

973
01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 3: had a unit that was once called Thunder in Arabic

974
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 3: and they they said, okay, maybe we can pay for

975
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 3: individuals give him forty thousand each to travel to Brazil

976
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 3: on fake visas, then go up through the gap and

977
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 3: then you know, enact our plan to kill George W.

978
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 3: Bush for revenge against what his administration did to our

979
01:03:54,160 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 3: country to Iraq and he got caught. He has been

980
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 3: cooperating with US forces. It seems that other criminal orgs

981
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 3: are aware of the problems posed by the Darien gap,

982
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:13,360
Speaker 3: and the increase in overall migration of innocent people makes

983
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 3: it much easier for the wolves to blend in with

984
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 3: the sheep. You know, like the point you made, there's

985
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 3: no passport control. Nobody's even fully out a survey.

986
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, the most important part of any transaction is the

987
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 2: Google survey that occurs afterwards.

988
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 3: So many surveys, do you ever do them?

989
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 2: I think I've done a couple to help out a

990
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:40,880
Speaker 2: business that I really appreciated, like I don't know, helping

991
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 2: me out or they're really good or a deal, but

992
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,919
Speaker 2: it's only happened, gosh, three times in my entire life.

993
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 3: Maybe, yeah, I'll do I'll do surveys if I've had

994
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 3: to go on the phone with someone for something complicated,

995
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 3: you know what I mean, because we've we've spent time

996
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 3: together and like, no, Jacob, you have a great week.

997
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well yeah, and you got to shout out that

998
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 2: in that particular human being because maybe that will actually

999
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 2: help them on their performance review.

1000
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 3: We hope. So, yeah, because it's it's tough to be

1001
01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 3: on the phone all day for your job, and anyway,

1002
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 3: the larger context there's this feedback loop. A government is unstable,

1003
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 3: Like let's take Katie. A government is unstable, it prompts

1004
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 3: residents to move. As they move, as they depart legally

1005
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 3: or not, the labor force gets depleted. That makes it

1006
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 3: much harder for the economy to recover because now if

1007
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 3: we have jobs, we don't have people to fill the jobs,

1008
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 3: which means the economy grows even worse, which means even

1009
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 3: more people.

1010
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 2: Leave, and now you need foreign aid from the United

1011
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:48,360
Speaker 2: States or China.

1012
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 3: Ding ding ding hmm. Yeah. It's it's a proven system.

1013
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 3: Try not to make a judgment on it other than

1014
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 3: saying that it has been proven. Well, okay, you know

1015
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: what we're going long, maybe we.

1016
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 2: Maybe John Perkins, is that the guy, the economic hit man?

1017
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Confessions of

1018
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 3: an Economic hit Man. He got really into shamanism. Oh cool.

1019
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:28,600
Speaker 3: So a full ninety seven percent of migrants who are

1020
01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 3: willing to be interviewed by Human Rights Watch by other sources,

1021
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 3: they all said that despite all of their travels and

1022
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 3: whatever their country of origin may be, traversing the Darien

1023
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 3: Gap was by far the most dangerous part of their passage.

1024
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 3: They can't report crimes to the Panamanian North Columbian authorities.

1025
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 3: And for now, the upward trend and migration, or the

1026
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 3: overall trend in migration, is on an upward trajectory. The

1027
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:58,360
Speaker 3: numbers might fall some years rise from others, but the

1028
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 3: overall trend is an or curve, and governments keep making

1029
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 3: politically self serving statements. Innocent people are going to continue

1030
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 3: to die out there in the jungle hoping for a

1031
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 3: fair shot at the American treat But how do we

1032
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 3: fix it? You know what I mean?

1033
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: We decide that every human consciousness is the same, and

1034
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 2: we don't allow billionaires anymore or not. I don't know.

1035
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:33,640
Speaker 2: I don't know how you fix it.

1036
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I do think I will say it. Uh,

1037
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 3: I do agree with you. I don't think we should

1038
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 3: have billionaires.

1039
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 2: I don't know whatever I feel like.

1040
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: You get how about this? You get have we talked

1041
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 3: about this? You get a billion dollars, You reach a

1042
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 3: billion dollars by hook or by crook, whatever, and then

1043
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 3: you get like that, like that little gold play button

1044
01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 3: they used to give us on YouTube or platinum. You

1045
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 3: get something like that, and instead of a play button,

1046
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 3: it has a C for capitalism, Like you have won.

1047
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 3: Here is your capitalism award, right, and and then you

1048
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:19,240
Speaker 3: get to start over.

1049
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can use that as capital of some

1050
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: sort just by having the button.

1051
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, you get like discounts Dave and Busters. Yeah you

1052
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 3: get you know, you get better, better seats on planes.

1053
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 3: But yeah, now you have to fly commercial.

1054
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 2: And it's a status thing. So you hit that status.

1055
01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 2: Now you can get the really cool stuff that you

1056
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 2: wanted as a billionaire. But the billions actually get to

1057
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,560
Speaker 2: go out to help, you know, make humanity and the

1058
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: earth better.

1059
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 3: And you get to keep a couple of million.

1060
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,719
Speaker 2: Well for sure, and you can use it however you want.

1061
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 3: Do whatever. And I think we've kind of pretty we've

1062
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 3: solved it. We've solved it because that would help emphasize

1063
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:07,120
Speaker 3: the fact that a lot of people seem to forget here.

1064
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 3: These are not souli statistics. These are people they want

1065
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 3: and deserve all the same dignity we hope all people

1066
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 3: can enjoy. But what's happening is that elephants are making

1067
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:21,760
Speaker 3: war for their own reasons. When elephants make war, it's

1068
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:22,959
Speaker 3: the grass that suffers.

1069
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 2: Yep.

1070
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 3: And with that we want to hear from you folks,

1071
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 3: thank you for taking this journey with us. We hope

1072
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 3: anyone who has traversed the gap or gone on a

1073
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 3: similar journey, we hope that you survived. We hope you

1074
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,639
Speaker 3: and your loved ones are safe. If you have personal

1075
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 3: experience with this, please please please reach out to us

1076
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 3: in so much as you are comfortable. Let us know

1077
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 3: what's going on. You can find us online. You can

1078
01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 3: find us for email, telephonic device. We're conspiracy stuff show

1079
01:09:56,280 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 3: on Instagram, conspiracy stuff on Twitter and YouTube. And if

1080
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 3: you don't sip the social needs, stay tuned for our

1081
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 3: episode about social media. Oh you give us a phone.

1082
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 2: Call, Yeah, you can't call us, As Ben said, tell

1083
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 2: us about your stories. Tell us if you know someone

1084
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 2: who's being affected by the ice stuff and the immigration

1085
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 2: stuff that's happening in the United States right now or

1086
01:10:22,920 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 2: in the country where you live. Just what is that,

1087
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 2: What is that feeling like to you? What do you

1088
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 2: see in the future as a lot of countries around

1089
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 2: the world seem to be set on a more isolationist path.

1090
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 2: Just tell us your thoughts. Our number is one eight

1091
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 2: three three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself

1092
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:46,200
Speaker 2: a cool nickname and let us know. In the message

1093
01:10:46,240 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 2: if we can use your name and message on the air.

1094
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 2: If you've got more to say then can fit in

1095
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,040
Speaker 2: a three minute voicemail. Why not instead send us a

1096
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 2: good old fashioned email.

1097
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence

1098
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 3: we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid sometimes the

1099
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 3: void writes back for this in particular, folks, please be

1100
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 3: safe out there. If you have any personal experience, share

1101
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 3: it with us and most importantly, more importantly, your fellow listeners.

1102
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,320
Speaker 3: It would also be immensely helpful. Again, only if you

1103
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 3: are comfortable in sharing things that more people contemplating these

1104
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 3: journeys need to be aware of. From your experience, What

1105
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 3: do you wish you had known before you cross the gap?

1106
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:53,560
Speaker 3: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1107
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:55,839
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1108
01:11:55,920 --> 01:12:00,120
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradi

1109
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 2: you app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1110
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 2: favorite shows.