1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. In this episode, you 3 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: will hear from Stanton Friedman, a leading researcher on the 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: Hill Encounter. A few months after I interviewed him, he 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: passed away at the age of eighty four. I had 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: a thoroughly enjoyable forty five minute conversation with him, during 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: which he answered all my questions at length and gave 8 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: me a good natured hard time about my skepticism. I 9 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: know his passing is a loss to the UFO community, 10 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: and I feel fortunate to have had the chance to 11 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: chat with him. October Margine. My qualification to do this research, 12 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: I've had one course of an astronomy in college about 13 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, which doesn't amount too much except it 14 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: did show me to their placement and quite an interest 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: in that since childhood. But my main interest is in 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: biology and anthropology. My degree was in sociology. I went 17 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: back from my teaching credits later. I also had what 18 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: amounted to the pre med course with a great interest 19 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: in biology. Being passion is anthropology makes um euphorology so interesting, 20 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: and you can consider how many different kinds of cultures 21 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: there might be, and add to this a different biological 22 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: background which would lead into even more complex and far 23 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: reaching cultural differences. Aspects are highly intriguing, to say the least. 24 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Betty Hill recalled being shown two objects while she was 25 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: on the spacecraft. The first was a type of book 26 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: containing alien symbols. We looked at this in the previous episode. 27 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: The second object was more compelling and it prompted exhaustive research. 28 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: Proponents of the Hill story point to it is evidence 29 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: that they were in fact abducted by aliens. This object 30 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: came to be called the star map. I'm tolbee ball. 31 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: This is Strange Arrivals Episode four, Zeta Reticuli. Betty and 32 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: Barney Hill reacted very differently during their abduction experience. Barney 33 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: spent much of the time in a day's responsive to 34 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: Betty's please. His hypnotic recall suggested that he regarded the 35 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: experience as something to be endured, and he kept his 36 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: eyes firmly shut from much of the ordeal. Betty, on 37 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: the other hand, told of being energized and engaged. In particular, 38 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: she carried on a conversation with one of the aliens, 39 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: whom she called the leader. She says, she asked the 40 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: leader to things. One was for a souvenir. The leader 41 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: gave her the book with the alien symbols and then, 42 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: to her frustration, took it back again. The second thing 43 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: she asked was where are you from. Here's Betty from 44 00:03:44,480 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: her hypnosis session on March fourteenth land across the room. 45 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: Did the head of the table, and there was he 46 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 1: did something. It wasn't like a draw, he said, I 47 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: did something in the metal of the wall. There was 48 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: an opening and he pulled down a map. Man He 49 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: asked me, had I ever seen a map like this before? 50 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: And I watched across the room and I leaned against 51 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: the table and I looked at it. It was an 52 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: oblong nap and he said that the heavy lines were 53 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: trade routes, and then the other lines the other that 54 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: the solid lines were place as they went Occasionally, he 55 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: said that it's a broken lines were expeditions. Betty asked 56 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: the leader to point out where he was from. He 57 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 1: responded by asking if she knew where the Earth would 58 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: be on the map. Betty said that she didn't. The 59 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: leader said that if that was the case, showing her 60 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: his home star on the map, wouldn't mean anything to her, 61 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: and he put it away. And this at first was 62 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: the whole story of the star map, as we're called 63 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: under hypnosis by Betty. Barney was not in the room 64 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: at the time and did not mention it. Dr Benjamin Simon, 65 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist who conducted the hypnosis sessions with the Hills, 66 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: seems to have been intrigued by mention of the star 67 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: map Betty Hill from presentation. Dr Simon gave me a 68 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: post autumatic suggestion. He said, if I wanted to, I 69 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: could sketch the start map, but if I didn't want it, 70 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: I didn't have to. So about two weeks later I 71 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: sketched it. You can easily find images of her sketch 72 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: on the Internet. It was drawn on a single piece 73 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: of paper. Twenty one circles and dots representing stars are 74 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: spread across the page, some connected with lines and others 75 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: just by themselves. I wouldn't call the resulting map crude exactly. 76 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: Maybe casual is a better word. Think about what you 77 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: would draw if someone asked you for a map showing 78 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: how to get from the nearest highway to your house. 79 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: You'd probably get all the roads and turns right but 80 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: with the length of the roads be perfectly to scale. 81 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: Betty's star map seems like a galactic equivalent of that 82 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: kind of map, but that's not how everyone perceived it. 83 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: A school teacher from Ohio named Marjorie Fish saw the 84 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: star map and thought it might reveal where the aliens 85 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: came from. She decided to try to figure out the 86 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: vantage point in our galaxy from which the map was made. 87 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: Working in the nineties, sixties and seventies, Marjorie didn't have 88 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: access to a computer to pursue her research. Her efforts 89 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: were decidedly analog, and they were extraordinary. In her living room, 90 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: she created a series of three dimensional models of the 91 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: nearby galaxy using beads hung from the ceiling by string. 92 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: Here's Stanton Friedman, a nuclear physicist and uphologist. He was 93 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: a leading researcher into the Hills story for fifty years 94 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: and knew both Betty and Barney and an A brilliant 95 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: woman named Marjorie Fish did something nobody else had ever done. 96 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: She about three dimensional models of our local galactic neighborhood. 97 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: Incredibly detailed work. I mean, her biggest model had two 98 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty six stars in it. That means you've 99 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: got to have the location of the star before you 100 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: can build them model little beats hung on strings. That 101 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: is tedious work and now hard part at that time, 102 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: because it's hard to measure distances. It's easy to measure angles. 103 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: You know, we're in this sky to look. That's a 104 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: two dimensional problem. But how far away is it? Ah, 105 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: we had lousy data. She got the best data available. 106 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: She wound up building a total of more than twenty 107 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: three dimensional models and was able to find one and 108 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: only one pattern that matched what Betty had drawn. Angle 109 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: for angle, line length for line length. The Milne Special 110 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: Collections and Archive at the University of New Hampshire's Diamond 111 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: Library as a number of photographs of Marjorie Fish's models. 112 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: She either used cloth or paper to create a black background. 113 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: A huge number of beads are suspended in air by 114 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: strings attached to the ceiling. They look like super thin icicles. 115 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: Marjorie would examine the model from different spots and angles, 116 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: trying to find one that match Betty's star map. It 117 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: was exacting work. To get a sense of how detailed 118 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: her efforts were, we can listen to a recording she 119 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: made in late nineteen nine. During her work on her models, 120 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: she engaged in a correspondence with a scientist named Richard Lee. 121 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: In response to letters that he apparently wrote her with 122 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: questions about her methods. She sent audio tapes. Most of 123 00:09:54,720 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: the conversation is technical and sounds like this. Right now, 124 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: I'm in the process of going through the metric parallax 125 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: catalog and pulling out all these stars in the parallax 126 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: of point zero four nine two point zero three. Oh, 127 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: this would take all the stars from sixty five light 128 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: years out to a hundred light years to supplement the 129 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: fleecy catalog so that a model can be constructed of 130 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: these stars. Now, this is one of my listing of 131 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: stars of good have plants with life, so I'm not 132 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: going to be including the stars brighter than F five. 133 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: And the work was frustrating too, because she was unable 134 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: to find a match in her model for Betty's map. 135 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: But then a scientific discovery suddenly unlocked the maps puzzle 136 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: and in the process seemed to suggest that it might 137 00:10:51,000 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: truly have an extraterrestrial origin. Strange arrivals will return in 138 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: a moment. Marjorie Fish went to incredible lengths building complex 139 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: models to try to identify the vantage point of the 140 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: star map. Her efforts went unrewarded until new astronomical data 141 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: became available and she updated her model. Kathleen Martin, Betty's niece, 142 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: and a UFO researcher. This one was after three additional 143 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: stars were discovered by astronomers and she added them to 144 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: the map, and she changed the distance data on some 145 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: of the others, and then in two she had a match. 146 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: To be clear, what Kathleen is saying is that Marjorie 147 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: Fish was able to find a model that fit the 148 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: star map until three previously undiscovered stars were identified. Once 149 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: she added them to her model, she had a match. 150 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: The inference here is that there is only one way 151 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: Betty could have drawn the map with those stars. That is, 152 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: if the map that she saw that night had information 153 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: not known to scientists at the time. Could this be 154 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: proof that the map was not of earthly origin. The 155 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: next step was to have her work vetted for accuracy 156 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: and to be verified by the scientific community. Here's Marjorie 157 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: again from her audio correspondence. I had assumed that everyone 158 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: in the field wanted to know where they came from. 159 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: I put in cross references and extra datus, so it 160 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: could be a pot chect in the matter of an 161 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: hour or two and thoroughly check in our two days. 162 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: Point by point the model could be built and checked 163 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: inside of a week. Everything I've done can be checked. 164 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: Since I've worked out all the methods, these could be 165 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: out and redone for are easier in the first time 166 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: of attack had to be lopped out. This is when 167 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: Stanton Friedman was called in as a nuclear physicist, and 168 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: this was his interest in the case. He was able 169 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: to find astrophysicists to vet Marjorie's work. It also ended 170 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: up being done as a computer generated analysis at Ohio 171 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: State University, and what they discovered is that the two 172 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: primary stars in the foreground were as they to reticulate, 173 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: one and two that are about thirty nine and a 174 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: half light years away, because one further away than the other, 175 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:53,559 Speaker 1: but they were only about a light year apart, which 176 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: was fairly close. There were binary stars, but they could 177 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: possibly maintain a stable war but so theoretically planets would 178 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: be able to evolve around those stars, just like we 179 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: have with our son in our solar system. Now that 180 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: the stars had apparently been identified, more research could be 181 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: done on the map. Betty thought that she might be 182 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: able to use it to identify a purpose for the 183 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: alien journeys. What we know about the universe is still 184 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: all in a theory. We still don't know. You know 185 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: a lot of the speculation, but the speculation is that 186 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: there are party seven nearby stads that our astronomers believe 187 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: have a son, and planets and conditions very similar to us. 188 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: I could have advanced life now. I had sixteen of 189 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: those Friday seven stars on my map out of an 190 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: area of about two hundred studs in the sky. Uh 191 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: the broken law well willing to staff systems which are 192 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: younger than we are. Um, the heavy lines are going 193 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: to send systems our age older. So it's looking it 194 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: looks as though they're going out into the nearby staff systems, 195 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: looking them all, finding out the stage of advancement of life, 196 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: and if we're advanced enough, they come back and take 197 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: another look. If we're not, if they going to younger 198 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: planets and they're not advanced, they go out on an 199 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: expedition and then I'll go back others. Stanton Freedman in 200 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: particular sought to support the star map with scientific credibility. 201 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: As we'll see that effort was met with significant pushback. 202 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: I published her work in an article in UFO magazine. 203 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: I guess it was something like that. And then I 204 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: convinced Terry Dickinson, who was editor of Astronomy magazine. I 205 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: had met Jerry had attended one of my lectors, and 206 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: I told him about Marjorie's work and suggested he to 207 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: an article about it. Well, he talked to a whole 208 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: bunch of people. He wasn't gonna accept what I said. 209 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: I mean, that was interesting, and and he looked at 210 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: what I had published, and then he wrote an article. 211 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: He talked to Cross SAG and he talked to a 212 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: whole bunch of people. It got more response than anything 213 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: they'd ever published. And he carried letters over the next 214 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: year and finally put out at thirty two page full 215 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 1: color booklet, The Zeta Reticuli Incident, and sold ten thousand 216 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: copies right off the bat, which was incredible. And then 217 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: Carl Sagan's attorney complained because Carl's name was on the 218 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: cover with five other contributors I think it was five 219 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: something like then, and threatened to sue him. Terry Dickinson, 220 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: the editor of the Fledgling Astronomy Magazine, it had only 221 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: been in existence for a year and a half, was 222 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: clearly intrigued by the Hill's tail, and found the evidence 223 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: on balance to be inconclusive. His article ends with the sentence, 224 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: the only answer is to continue the search. Someday, perhaps soon, 225 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: we will know. This set off nearly a year's worth 226 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: of argument in Astronomy Magazine's letter section. This level of 227 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: interest led to the publication of the special edition titled 228 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 1: the Zeta Reticuli Incident. It contained Dickinson's original article and 229 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: then a series of letters and responses from scientists and 230 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: other experts. Carl Sagan was the host of the phenomenally 231 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,159 Speaker 1: popular nine eighties television show Cosmos. He was perhaps the 232 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: most famous scientist in America. Marjorie felt that it would 233 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: be important to bring the star map to his attention 234 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: against the private him as the oddly enough, he's prejudice 235 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: against youthos. This may work our favor if he's reasonably fair, 236 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: although I've heard he may not be if I can 237 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: get him interested enough or mad enough to try to 238 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 1: find flaws in the data, and he can't. He says 239 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: so his word as a respected scientist and as an 240 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: a opponent to uthos will carry more weight. I found 241 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 1: a two falls in his work, and that just might 242 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: get him mad enough to want to find some in mine. 243 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: She got Siggin's attention all right. He sent letters to 244 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: Astronomy strongly taking issue with the star maps authenticity. When 245 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: the special edition was published, he threatened to sue Astronomy 246 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: Magazine because he had not given permission for his letters 247 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 1: to be reprinted. The issue was pulled from the shelves. 248 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: The entire data reticulous incident seems to be something of 249 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: a fondly remembered embarrassment to Astronomy Magazine. In the online 250 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: version of the original article, current editor David Ker writes 251 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: two things happened from this absurd tale. First, it sold 252 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: lots of books. Second, it nearly ruined the reputation of 253 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: this young Astronomy magazine. He also says it may have 254 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: caused Dickins in his job, as he was fired months later. Sagan, however, 255 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: was not finished with his public criticism of the star map. 256 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: His show Cosmos mostly focused on explaining space physics to 257 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: a general audience, but in episode twelve Encyclopedia Galactica, he 258 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: focused on the possibility of extraterrestrial life. In this episode, 259 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: there's a brief segment about Betty and Barney Hill. He said, 260 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: don't believe, Oh I don't. There must be a reasonable explanation. 261 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: The episode begins with the bizarre dramatization of the Hills 262 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: UFO encounter. Betty and Barney are depicted driving in the 263 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: rain and then lurching around in a stupor. It wasn't 264 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: raining the night of the Hills encounter. Of course, the 265 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: scene seems calculated to make them look as silly as possible. 266 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: After this unpromising start, the episode cuts to Carl Sagan, 267 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: looking dapper in a tan jacket and blue shirt. He 268 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: walks along the side of a grassy hill. He's carrying 269 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: a path of some sort that turns out to have 270 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: a simplified version of Betty's star map. This seems to 271 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: be the real reason for bringing up the Hills. He 272 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: goes through a sequence of comparisons between betty star map 273 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: and a map of the stars from Marjorie Fish's model. 274 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: The first comparison is between the two maps with the 275 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: lines indicating trade routes drawn in. Sagan says they look similar, 276 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: but mostly because of the lines. He then shows the 277 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: Fish map with a different set of lines strawn. Now, 278 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: as you'd expect, the maps suddenly look very different. But 279 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 1: he doesn't stop there. The real test, he says, is 280 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: to take a look at the maps without any lines 281 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: drawn in to connect the stars and compare them that way. 282 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: When he shows these two maps, they don't look much 283 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: alike at all. Looking at this last pair of maps, 284 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: he concludes, as read by a voice actor, and then 285 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,400 Speaker 1: there's very little resemblance left. But these particular stars are 286 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: selected from a large catalog of star positions. Our vantage 287 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: point in space is also selected to make the best 288 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: possible fit with the Hill map. If you can pick 289 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: and choose from a large number of stars viewed from 290 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: any advantage point in space you want, you can always 291 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: find something resembling the pattern you're looking for. I'm surprised 292 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 1: that nobody could find a better fit to the Hill map. 293 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, proponents of the Hill story were not amused. 294 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: In response to this episode, Stanton Friedman wrote a furious 295 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: letter to the senior vice president of kse CET, the 296 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: public broadcasting system station that produced Cosmos. In it, he 297 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: strongly objects to the portrayal of the Hill encounter and 298 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: the segment on the star map. He says it is 299 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: part of a clear attempt to set science up on 300 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: one side and believers UFO enthusiasts on the side of 301 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: religion and superstition and obviously not scientific. Freedmen clearly objects 302 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 1: to Sagan's tone regarding quote unquote UFO enthusiasts. But the 303 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: real question here is whether the map that Betty drew 304 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: on a sheet of paper based on her hypnotically regressed 305 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: memory provides an accurate tool to identify a distinct group 306 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: of stars. I'd be willing about that if you took 307 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: a handful of sunflowers so he's dropped them on a 308 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: piece of paper and mark their locations, that you would 309 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: be able to find someplace in the universe that matched 310 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 1: that pattern at some rain chet some orientation, at some scale. 311 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: This is author Jim McDonald. I'd also be willing to 312 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: bet that the the Hill map matches somewhere else in 313 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: the universe as well, or better that it matches uh 314 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,439 Speaker 1: the setter reticulised site. I will also bet that that 315 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: same map matches the pattern of some group of towns, cities, 316 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: or villages somewhere in the world. At some orientation, at 317 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: some range, at some scale, or that it matches the patterns, 318 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: and somebody of water islands at some body of water 319 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: at some range, at some scale, at some orientation, unless 320 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 1: and until we get to set articular and find little 321 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: gray aliens. Uh, it's nothing. It's dots on a piece 322 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: of paper, which you or I could make dots on 323 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: a piece of paper. But it is not just the 324 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,159 Speaker 1: process of matching Betty's map to an actual part of 325 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: the galaxy that causes problems. How how accurate could the 326 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: map possibly be? Think about how difficult it would be 327 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: to precisely place a series of dots and lines on 328 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: a piece of paper based on something you've seen two 329 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: years ago, Hosts of the Skeptoid podcast, Ryan Dunning. The 330 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: claim associated with this map is that she saw this 331 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: on a wall in the spaceship and then two and 332 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: a half years later, remembered what it looked like, and 333 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: during the hypnosis session drew this out, drew these dots 334 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: on a piece of paper, and based on that, we're 335 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: supposed to believe that this is an absolutely accurate, you know, 336 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: to the micron depiction of stars in our local galaxy. 337 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: Here somewhere that's an awfully weak point right there. When 338 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: you look at a map showing a dozen dots that 339 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: are in a random more or less a random distribution, 340 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: are you going to be able to reproduce the positions 341 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: of each one of those exactly more than two years later? 342 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: That strange credib pility right there. There's no reason to 343 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: think her memory of that star map would be remotely accurate, 344 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: let alone accurate at all. I mean, the brain simply 345 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: doesn't work that way. Our brains are not digital recorders. 346 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,919 Speaker 1: Our brains are abstraction engines. When you look at a 347 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: map that shows a dozen dots, the only thing your 348 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 1: brain stores is that there were a dozen dots randomly 349 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: distributed on that paper, and that's the best you can 350 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: do when you try to reproduce it later. There's no 351 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: reason to think that this map could have been an 352 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: accurate representation of something she'd seen two years before. Carl 353 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: Sagan and Jim McDonald may have been right that you 354 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: can find matches for any random array of stars if 355 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: you search enough, But with what we know now, that 356 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: seems almost beside the point, Because it is nearly impossible 357 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: to believe that Betty could sketch a replica of the 358 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: star map with the incredible degree of accuracy needed to 359 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: identify Zata Reticuli as the alien's point of origin. This 360 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: doesn't prove that Betty wasn't shown a star map by 361 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: the leader or aboard a spaceship, merely that the chances 362 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: that she could produce an accurate replica are essentially zero. 363 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: Late in life, when more accurate data about the characteristics 364 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: and locations of stars in our galaxy became available, Marjorie 365 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: Fish concluded that her identification of Zeta Reticuli was not accurate. 366 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: This view was mentioned in the obituary that ran when 367 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: she died on April eight. Quote later, after newer data 368 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 1: was compiled, she determined that the binary stars within the 369 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,880 Speaker 1: pattern were too close together to support life, so, as 370 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: a true skeptic, she issued a statement that she now 371 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: felt that the correlation was unlikely. Even if you concede 372 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: that using the star map to locate the alien's point 373 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: of origin is a dead end, it doesn't really prove 374 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: the the Hill's abduction experience didn't happen. There's still this. 375 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: Betty and Barney were hypnotized separately and told similar mutually 376 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: supporting stories, stories they hadn't remembered before their hypnosis sessions. 377 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: How can you explain this if they hadn't actually been 378 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: abducted during those missing hours? Next time on Strange Arrivals. 379 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 1: Strange Arrivals is a production of I Heart Radio and 380 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: Grim and Mild from Aaron Mankey. This episode was written 381 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: and hosted by Toby Bowl and produced by Miranda Hawkins 382 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: and Josh Thane, with executive producers Alex Williams, Matt Frederick 383 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: and Aaron Manky. Betty Hill was portrayed by Gina Rickikey. 384 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: Barney Hill was portrayed by Jason Williams. Special thanks to 385 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: the MILM Special Collections and Archives at the University of 386 00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, John Horrigan, w y Am in Norwich, connectic it, 387 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: John White and David O'Leary, the executive producer of The 388 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: History Channel's dramatic series Project Bluebook. Learn more about the 389 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: show over at Grimm and Mile dot com. For more 390 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 391 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.