1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio High 2 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Family Secrets Listeners, It's Danny. Some of you may remember 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: that last August we ran a special bonus episode a 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: conversation with the journalist Jennifer Sr, who had just published 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: her cover story in The Atlantic titled What Bobby McIlvaine 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: left Behind Grief, conspiracy Theories, and one Family's search for 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: meaning in the two decades since nine eleven. It was 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: a searing, extraordinary piece of journalism, and my conversation with 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: Jennifer about the way secrets can be buried in a 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: family was profound and revealing. So it is with great 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: pleasure that I learned this week that Jennifer has been 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: awarded journalism's top honor, the two Pulitzerprise for Feature Writing. 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: In honor of this crowning achievement, and as we're deep 14 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: into producing season seven of Family Secrets, which will drop 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: on September one, here again is our conversation. You had 16 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: a personal connection to the macle van's. Yes, although the 17 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: funny thing is, how well do you know these kinds 18 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: of people? Really, I will describe you to you how 19 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: I knew them, and you'll see they didn't etch themselves 20 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: particularly deeply into my brain until after they'd lost Bobby, 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 1: which is a sad thing to say. They were the 22 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: parents of my brother's roommate, both in college and in 23 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: young adulthood. My brother moved into Princeton, you know, as 24 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: freshman year. He throws his stuff on a bunk bed, 25 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: and the kid on the other bunk bed was Bobby 26 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: mcle vain. And so when did I see the macle van's. 27 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: I saw them if we were at the end of 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,639 Speaker 1: the year picking up my brother there or graduation, or 29 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: then when the two of them were living in New York. 30 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: I would see them if I had just happened to 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: run into them because they were in town and I 32 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: was picking something up, and my brother says, you know, 33 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: it wasn't a lot. I really didn't get to know 34 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: them until after Bobby died. Um. And my impression of 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: them is just that they were saintly warm people who 36 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: had devoted their lives to doing good in the world. 37 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: They were both teachers. They one taught you know, kids 38 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: who were the troubled teens who were in an adolescent 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: psych ward at a local hospital. Another taught reading in 40 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: a trailer in a parking lot of a Catholic school. 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: They were lovely people. Oh and and his brother was 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: this this cheerful, sweet kid you know, who was younger 43 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: and kind of goofy and uh and not nearly the 44 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: go getter that his older brother was, but very funny. 45 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: And Bobby made a much bigger and more singular impression 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: upon you, it seems during the time that you knew him. 47 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: Oh God, Yeah, Bobby was like a one off. He 48 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: was like a human being that never went into full production, 49 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It was he was an 50 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: exceptional kid. Nobody in his family expecting him to go 51 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: to an IVY League school, working class, um, you know, 52 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: Irish Catholic family, Uh, without any kind of expectation that 53 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: he would go off and conquer the Ivy League. And 54 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: he just came out freakishly smart even as this young kid. 55 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: And uh when I met him, he was always just 56 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: filled with ideas, very lively conversation, very precocious um charisma 57 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: personified I think, intimidating to some people who knew him 58 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 1: until they got to know him and realized that inside 59 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: he was just a warm piece of peach pie. Um. 60 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: He just was dazzling and with this if he had 61 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: been sort of flung into the world from a sling shot, 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He just had lots of 63 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: puppets um and had that air about him that any 64 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: self invented person does. They're just kind of unstoppable. There's 65 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: a moment in your piece for you describe he was 66 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: also athletic, and there's this moment where you describe a 67 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: teenage Bobby mcilvane throwing an immaculate pass uh as a 68 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: basketball player that sets up an immaculate shot that flies 69 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: right over the teenage head of Kobe Bryant. I mean, 70 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it just sounds like on every level, this 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 1: kid was, as you describe, just a one off, completely extraordinary. 72 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: He was a miracle, yeah, I mean, and Kobe Bryant. 73 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: That's the other thing, right, There's something almost Zelig like 74 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: or Forrest gumpi in about Bobby's trajectory. Right. They wound 75 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: up playing each other in high school and they were 76 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 1: the two best kids on their team, and Bobby got 77 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: sixteen points off of Kobe and his teammates. I mean, 78 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: that's extraordinary. That became the stuff of legend in the 79 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: mclavaine family. As Kobe Bryant became Kobe bryant Um. Then 80 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: Bobby goes up to end get the handpick to take 81 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: a class with Tony Morrison. And when when Bobby dies, 82 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison sends his family not one but two condolence 83 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: notes saying what a star Bobby was. And he just 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: kept intersecting with exceptional people. You know, that's the kind 85 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: of guy he was. So on on nine eleven. At first, 86 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: when the planes hit the towers, there wasn't a sense 87 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: in the family or among Bobby's friends that that Bobby 88 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: was in the towers right there. It was just um, 89 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: this horrific thing that was unfolding. But there was no 90 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 1: reason to He didn't work there, he didn't live right there. 91 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: There was no reason to think that he would have 92 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: been there. You were nearer there. He was adjacent, right 93 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: But But and here's what's interesting. His mother had a 94 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: full on premonition, a real, deep, visceral sense that something 95 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: wasn't matter. It was more than just a chirp in 96 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: her stomach. She really thought something was wrong. But his 97 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: father treated it like a news event. His brother had 98 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: just been in the city that Thursday and appear with him, 99 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: and he worked in Maryland he had just moved there 100 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: to corporate communications in Marylynch. It just so happened he 101 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: had to attend a conference that day, and you do 102 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: anythings crazier. The theory about Bobby is that he had 103 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: to go to a restaurant that to Windows in the 104 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: World that morning for a conference, but that he had 105 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: probably left before the planes hit, because they found his 106 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: body on the periphery of the site, and that no 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: one who was in Windows on the World was found, right, 108 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody was incinerated if they were up there. 109 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: So I want to quote something from from your Peace, 110 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: because really, so much of your piece is about the 111 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: shape or shapelessness or trajectory of grief and trauma, and 112 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: you write early on the macaile Veins spoke to a 113 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: therapist who warned them that each member of their family 114 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: would grieve differently. Imagine you're all at the top of 115 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: a mountain, she told them, But you all have broken bones, 116 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: so you can't help each other. You have to find 117 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: your own way down. It was a helpful metaphor, one 118 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: that may have saved the Macailvan's marriage. But when I 119 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: mentioned it to Roxanne Cohen Silver, a psychology professor you see, Irvine, 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: who spent a lifetime studying the effect of sudden traumatic loss. 121 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: She immediately spotted a problem with it that suggests that 122 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: everyone will make it down. She told me, some people 123 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: never get down the mountain at all. This is one 124 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: of the many things you learn about mourning when examining 125 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: it at close range. It's idiosyncratic, anarchic polychrome. A lot 126 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: of the series you read about grief are great, beautiful, 127 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 1: even they have a way of eracing individual experiences. Every 128 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: morner has a different story to tell. So what I'm 129 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: wondering is if you can tell us now the different 130 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: stories that Bobby's parents, in particular went through in the 131 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: wake the long wake of Bobby's death, Both Bob Sor 132 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: and Helen. Yes, Um, they are so different that they 133 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: almost look like photo negatives of one another. It really 134 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:46,199 Speaker 1: struck me, Um, and particularly Bob Sor his story. Helen's 135 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: was more recognizable to me. It isn't how I think 136 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: I would have grieved, but it is a story that 137 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: I could have sort of seen and predicted, which is 138 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: not knowing her. So Helen, this is how she chose 139 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: to grief. She chose to starve her grief. She didn't 140 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: want people to pity her. She didn't want to manage 141 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: people's awkwardness. She didn't want to manage their discomfort or 142 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: listen to them babbling their contolences, and she didn't want 143 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: to feel terrible all the time when people accidentally said 144 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: the wrong thing to her. She went to a different 145 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: grocery store for fifteen years in order to not run 146 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: into people she knew, so that no one could sit 147 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: there and just start incoherently trying to consol her or 148 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: muttering to preprint to you know, like pointing and gossiping. 149 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: She didn't want any of it. She would deflect, she 150 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: would joke. It was her way of coping with it, 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 1: and realized about ten years in that it wasn't serving 152 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: her very well to keep stoppering up all of her grief. 153 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: She realized at some point that it was making her angry, 154 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: that it was making her more of a gossip, that 155 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: she was on a shorter fuse. She thought, No, it 156 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: is additionally compounded by the fact that I am not 157 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: allowing myself to grieve, to fully inhabit disgrief. The only 158 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: type herself to do it was with this group of 159 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: local women all lost children with whom she could speak 160 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 1: in shorthand they all knew what it was. They weren't 161 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: going to single her ad for special pity. She could 162 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: say anything she wanted to them and it was all okay. 163 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: But they understood if she said, I was just with 164 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: a friend of mine who went on and on and 165 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: on about their child, and I just couldn't stand listening 166 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: to them talk about their child. I am so jealous 167 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: that she has this problem. I can't listen to people 168 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 1: talk about their child. They all got it. It all 169 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: made sense, but it was very hard for her. She 170 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: didn't want to be a victim. She didn't want to 171 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: be short, she didn't want to be short tempered, you know, 172 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: or hurt. All these things. She had like a strong 173 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: super ego kind of watching her own reactions. That was helen. 174 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: She gave the impression of having quote unquote healed because 175 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: she wasn't talking about it. She was, you know, moving 176 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: on with her life. And so it was this impossible 177 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: conundrum totally one of her own making right, exactly right. 178 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: She needed to do that in order to get through 179 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: the day that was in some ways her version of 180 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: grieving was not grieving or not externally showing it, and 181 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: yet exactly something some part of her was permanently you know, 182 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: there was scar tissue on top of a whole bunch 183 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: of stuff that had not stitched up. There was something 184 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: painfully paradoxical about this situation, right that she was like 185 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: all stitched up, but just a watery mass inside. And 186 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: so that was really hard. That was really really hard 187 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: for her um and she just woke up one morning 188 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: and decided she had to do something about it, which 189 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: makes her very unusual. I mean, to make an executive 190 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: decision one day that you were simply going to be 191 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 1: another person is extraordinary. And she actually did that. She 192 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: actually woke up one morning and did that to be 193 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: She decided she wanted to be somebody else. She needed 194 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: to be someone else, and so she was going to 195 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: be that person. And what was that someone else? Someone 196 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: who engaged more with her grief and who let go 197 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: of all of the anger that was just accumulating in there. 198 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: She really felt, on some level like she was marinating 199 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: in a braid of her own resentment and her own 200 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: fury and her own hurt, and she hadn't let it out, 201 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: you know, and it was just curdling her and curdling 202 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: her insights. What you just described is a version of 203 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: a secret. It's you know, it's it's this kind of 204 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: almost one of the most toxic versions because it's that 205 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: bottling up, you know, the idea of I can make 206 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: this go away if I just try hard enough, totally. 207 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: And here's what's amazing, her suffering with the secret and 208 00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: her son died and what must have been the most 209 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: blick active mass murder in recent memory, right, I mean, 210 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: she was denying herself, her own suffering. She was keeping 211 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: it almost from herself, and it's so poignant and it 212 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: can be so corrosive to our souls, you know, it 213 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: can just rip us up, and I think it did her. 214 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: And then meanwhile, her husband, Bobby's father, Bob Senior, was having, 215 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: as you say, a completely almost polar opposite kind of 216 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: way way of responding. Yes, Bob was the polar opposite. 217 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: Everything that was light colored on Helen's print was dark 218 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: colored down hairs and everything that was dark color and 219 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: her print was light on his. I mean that you 220 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 1: just couldn't imagine two different ways of going about grieving 221 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: for Bob's senior. It's not just that he actively every 222 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: day chooses to inhabit his grief, and he cries every 223 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: day that his grief just lives very close to the surface. 224 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: You just touch him, if you a whole vat of 225 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: grief kind of spills out. It's not just that, it's 226 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: that for him, every day is kind of September twelve. 227 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: It's like he wakes up and he's as raw as 228 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: he was almost the day he discovered it. And to me, 229 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: this was just an amazing revelation because there are all 230 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: these kind of cultural wide imperatives that I think we 231 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: have that, oh, you've got to move on, You've got 232 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: to move past your grief or through your grief, or 233 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: around your grief or something. Right. No, not him. He 234 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: had no interest. He wanted to live in his grief. 235 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: It seems like his form of grief was about engaging 236 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: with the details, real or imagined. Around nine eleven and 237 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:02,239 Speaker 1: around Bobby's death was a way of keeping Bobby alive exactly. 238 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean, he treated Bobbies death as if it were 239 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: an unsolved murder. He became over time gradually very very 240 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: interested in um all of the I'm going to call 241 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: them conspiracy theory. He never would he calls this nine 242 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: eleven truth. Um to me, the air conspiracy theories that 243 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: the government was behind this, that um, this was an 244 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: orchestrated hit. You know, that the World Trade Center was 245 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: embroidered with explosives. And he became very interested in in 246 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: in sorry, explosive laid by the American government and it was, 247 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: you know, a control debt nation. He had a theory 248 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: for why they actually um destroyed it. That's quite arcane. 249 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: What got in his mind turning though, was that it 250 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: was based on looking at the medical examiners report, yes, 251 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: Son's death. You know, I think what he initially was 252 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: doing was some we worrying about um. It was a 253 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 1: very paternal instinct. He was haunted by the idea that 254 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: Bobby might have suffered right before he died, that he 255 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: might have aspixiated, that he might have been up, that 256 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: he might have jumped right, that he didn't know how 257 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: he died. Um. And in getting medical examiner's report, he 258 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: saw how he died. I mean, he was decapitated and 259 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 1: which to me suggested a giant piece of debris you know, 260 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: came worring out of the sky and then he didn't 261 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: know what hit him. But for whatever sort of reasons, 262 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: Bob Sr. Decided that because most of Bobby's injuries were 263 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: on his front, not on his back, he had he 264 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: couldn't have been running away from the building, he had 265 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: to have been inside it, and that this had to 266 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,520 Speaker 1: have been an inside job. So he started doing a 267 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: lot of reading. He started reading history. He started doing 268 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,239 Speaker 1: all these things and came up with a very laboratory 269 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: for why the government might might have wanted to destroy 270 00:16:54,920 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: the World Trade Center. And you know, Bobby's brother Jeff 271 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: thinks that by saying, oh, this is merely how he grieves, 272 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 1: he thinks it's kind of trivializing his efforts. And that 273 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: may be so, Although what I think is interesting is 274 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,120 Speaker 1: that Bob Senior said to me, in doing this every day, 275 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: he is definitely keeping his Bobby close, that this is 276 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: how he spends time in Bobby's company. So I might 277 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: be giving short trift to the theories because I don't 278 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: believe in the theories. I think the theories are wrongheaded. 279 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: But he does not deny that like they serve, it 280 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: serves a purpose for him. And in doing all this research, 281 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: he gets to stay close to Bobby. He gets to 282 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: do this and it's a way to keep parenting, and 283 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: it would kind of forget. Bobby was so young. He 284 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: was so young, he was only twenty six. He was 285 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: still problem with in some way as a little boy 286 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: to Bob SR. And he probably wanted to actively parent him, 287 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: you know. Still in some ways, this is him being 288 00:17:52,280 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: a father. We'll be right back. So Bobby kept He 289 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: was a prolific journal keeper. He left behind volumes and 290 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: volumes of journals and thinking about what it is to 291 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: continue to parent, or to keep someone alive, or to 292 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: keep a relationship alive in some way. You know, the 293 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: journals become very very important in this story. Helen and Bob, 294 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: you know, have all the journals. Um. There is a 295 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 1: young woman named Jen who is Bobby's girlfriend and is 296 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 1: about to become Bobby's fiance. He has a ring, and 297 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: he has asked her father for her hand in marriage, 298 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 1: and he um is about to propose to her, and 299 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: of course that of her happens. So Jen is his girlfriend, 300 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,840 Speaker 1: and she doesn't have any legal right to any of 301 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: his possessions or belongings. And Jen asks if she can 302 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: have the last journal that Bobby had been writing in, 303 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: and Bob SR. Just hands it to her without a 304 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: thought of like, of course, here here's a piece of Bobby. 305 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: So that's a perfect summary. Um. Bob Senior handed into 306 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: her without giving it a second thought. Because there they 307 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: were cleaning out Bobby's bedroom. There was his last remaining 308 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: journal open on his desk, and Jen started reading it 309 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: and noticed that she was on practically every page, so 310 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: it would be perfectly natural for her to want to 311 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 1: have that right. And he was distributing those journals anyway 312 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: to everybody who was in the room. It was my brother, 313 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: it was two other friends. I think we're there, um, 314 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: And he was saying, you might want to look at 315 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,639 Speaker 1: these in order to write your eulogies because me and 316 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: my wife I am not being any shape to write them. 317 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 1: And Helen was not even in any shape to go 318 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: and clean out that bedroom. She was elsewhere. And if 319 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: she'd been in that bedroom, she might have stopped her 320 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: husband from giving away that final journal, because it was 321 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: hugely important to her that she had every molecule of 322 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: everything her son that ever had. All the objects of 323 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: the dead, a lot of them can just assume almost 324 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: kind of tellismanic property, like they just their proxies for 325 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: the person you love, And what's so interesting about a 326 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: diary is that it's not even the same as like 327 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: a T shirt or a recovered photograph. It's this unusual 328 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: thing where you get to almost hear that person's voice 329 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: again and to spend time in their company. It's not 330 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: a conversation or that, it's not two ways, but you 331 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: are hearing from them. And she was so devastated when 332 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: she found out that her husband had given away this 333 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: final journal, because here was this chance to hear her 334 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,399 Speaker 1: son's voice one last time, and she was being robbed 335 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: of that opportunity. Particularly, I mean he was at that moment. 336 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: She had like all of his kind of childhood journals 337 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: when he was a kid, but he wasn't a fully 338 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: formed adult. It wasn't like a chance to experience him 339 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: and a grown human, you know, And here was this 340 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: most recent thing, and she she just she didn't have 341 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: it suddenly, right, So she asks Jen if Jen will 342 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: part with it? Correct, She asked Jen for it. She said, 343 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: I would really like to see parts of it. I 344 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: understand it's about you, but and Jen kind of demurred. 345 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: She hemmed in odd, and she took the diary home 346 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: with her. She went off to Michigan, where she was 347 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,239 Speaker 1: from and took some I by herself, and then she 348 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: came back and lived with the mcle vans for about 349 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: two months because she just couldn't stand being in her 350 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: apartment by herself. So there were many opportunities for Helen 351 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,400 Speaker 1: to say, you know, I'd really like to see that diary, 352 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: which was no longer there, right, it was in Jim's apartment. 353 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: She had taken it and then got off to Michigan, 354 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: so the diary is not there. Helen and looking at 355 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: this future almost daughter in law who she doesn't know 356 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: very well, she hadn't spent much time in her company, 357 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: and adding for it and not getting the response she wants, 358 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: and by the end she was begging. She was simply saying, look, 359 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: if Bobby is describing a tree, can you just give 360 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: me the words, Just tell me what he says about 361 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: the tree. I just want the words, just the words. 362 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: And then still never did it, and her stay there 363 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: ended in terrible tension, and with Jen slamming the door 364 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: behind her, bursting into tears, getting in her car and 365 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 1: driving off, and you never saw the macle vains again. 366 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: And when I saw Helen before, you know, to do 367 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: this story, Jen, she couldn't come up with Jen's last name. 368 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: She kept saying, it's something short, it's like Jen Cove 369 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: And I said it was Jennifer Cobb and she said, oh, 370 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: that's right, cob c O B And I said c 371 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: O b by. She really had forgotten. She had buried 372 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: her the way she had buried her son. She had 373 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: just forgotten. It always really amazes me and humbles me 374 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: to think about what the ways in which our memories, 375 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: especially our memories under the pressure of intense emotion, um 376 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: just either end up with these huge lakunai, you know, 377 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: just these gaps, or tell their own stories just you 378 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: know that are just different stories. And you know, one 379 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: of the things that you're that you're describing now makes 380 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: me think of um a moment in your piece where 381 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: where you you describe the yearning and searching stage of grief, right, 382 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: and and so at this point Helen and Jen who 383 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: are in this yearning and searching stage, and the journal 384 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: has become this kind of emblematic of that more than 385 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: anything else. It's a way to resurrect the dead, even 386 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: though you know that they can't be retirected. Right. That's 387 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 1: when you are just desperately searching for them though you know, 388 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: rationally they're never coming back. So it's a widow crying 389 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 1: out there her husband as she's doing the dishes, are 390 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: talking to him. You know. It's you can take many 391 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: many forms. It was first described by a pair of 392 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: British psychiatrists. Um. One of thom was John Bulby, who 393 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: did attachment theory. But yeah, I mean, but the real 394 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: kind of author of that is a guy named Colin 395 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: Murray Parks. And yeah, it's perfect. And I think that 396 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: Helen was stuck on that diary for like ten years. 397 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: She was yearning and searching, and she really really um 398 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: got served bogged down in it. She took it to 399 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: the members of her that group that I was describing 400 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: of women who had all lost kids. She would talk 401 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: about it with them and they would joke about breaking 402 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: into Jennifer's house and liberating the diary, you know, so 403 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: that you could have it, stealing it. Um. She was 404 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: really angry at her husband for a very long time. 405 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: She would needle him about it, you know, for years 406 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: this one on. She couldn't get past it. There was 407 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: one phrase that Helen became very focused on. She wasn't 408 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: sure where she had read it or heard it um, 409 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: but the phrase was Bobby's, she was certain, and it 410 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: was life love's on, and she was very focused on that. 411 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: And that became a kind of motto or or a 412 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: way of thinking for the family that Bobby had said 413 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: that and that that's what they needed to do exactly. 414 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: It became like some kind of organizing motto for their grief. 415 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: And to your point about how humbling and mind blowing 416 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: it is that our memories can desert us. She has 417 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: that motto of life loves on engraved in a bracelet, 418 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: right that you wear it every day. A friend gave it, 419 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: gave it to her. Her friends also took on that motto. 420 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,439 Speaker 1: They have it like sort of stamped at the bottoms 421 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: of their emails his and Bob Senior has it tattooed 422 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 1: on his arm, right, I mean, so this is on 423 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: his skin. So you would think, if you are going 424 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: to live by that phrase that your son has written, 425 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: you would like know where it came from or was 426 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: some idea. And yeah, but she hands me all these 427 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: diaries and tells me, okay, well, I know it's in here, 428 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: And she thinks that she knows where it is, and 429 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: she goes looking for it. She sure she knows where 430 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: it comes from, which is that when like a family 431 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: friend died, he wrote it then, But it turned out 432 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: out to be there. So I went on this mad 433 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: aunt to find this phrase, and you know how I 434 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: found it. I'm not sure I want to give it away, 435 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: but it was this extraordinarily I mean, it was this 436 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: insane kind of uh flothing adventure that I went on 437 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: to find this thing. And it turns out I mean, 438 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about secrets you keep from yourself, 439 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: she knew, everyone in the family knew. They had just 440 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: all forgotten where it came from. They had just forgotten. 441 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: And it is amazing what we can And as you say, 442 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: the lacina and our memories are just extraordinary. I mean 443 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: they are there the size of an ocean sometimes and 444 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: you can't believe it. It should be solid land, you know, 445 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: I mean, the things that we know to be certain, 446 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: sometimes they're just made of water. We'll be back in 447 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: a moment with more family secrets. I want to quote 448 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 1: one other little passage from from Your Peace, which is 449 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: memories of traumatic experiences are a curious thing. Some are vivid, 450 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: some are pale. Pretty much all of them have been 451 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: amended in some way great or small. There seems to 452 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: be no rhyme or reason to our curated reels. We 453 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: remember the trivial and forget the exceptional. Our minds truly 454 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: have minds of their own. So I don't think it 455 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: would be giving anything away, and everyone should just simply 456 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: read your beautiful peace. But to say that down the road, 457 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: once this phrase and it's our gen has been tracked down, 458 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: you know, like the Holy grail. Um, you send it 459 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: to your editor at The Atlantic, like a screen, a 460 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: screenshot of where it was, and he sends you a 461 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: note that says and and Bobby has like very dense, 462 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: sort of indecipherable, you know, difficult to make out handwriting. 463 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: And your editor writes to you and says, isn't it 464 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: life lives on, not life love? So exactly, yes, he did, 465 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: And my heart sank. And I mean, I I can't 466 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: tell you. I mean I was on an amtrack and 467 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: I almost started to scream. I did not know what 468 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: to do, because then you're faced with a real journalistic conundrum, 469 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: which is do you tell a family that's been living 470 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: by this mode over twenty years? You know, it's almost 471 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: there's a word for this when when it's an oral misapprehension, 472 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: when you hear something incorrectly, it's called the Manda green 473 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: And you know, like VI, Jimie Andricks excuse me while 474 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: I kissed the sky, and everybody thinks it's excuse me 475 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: while I kiss this guy, you know, So it's like 476 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: the equivalent of that, but in print, where you're looking 477 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: at the wrong like it was just it was misinterpreted, 478 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: it was misread. It didn't matter. In the end, it 479 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: didn't matter. Bobby's journals are filled with wisdom, all kinds 480 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: of unexpected wisdom. The funny and amazing and weird thing 481 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:39,479 Speaker 1: is that although Helen and Bob had lots of Bobby's 482 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: journals for a while, um they didn't read them very much. 483 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: And there's lots of great things in there. When I 484 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: finally glimpsed that diary, I'm happy to say that there 485 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: was plenty in there to look at that I thought 486 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: was really much more beautiful and much more resonant um 487 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: then Life lives On, Life Love On. You know, it's 488 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: a little bit hallmarky. Life loves On It's slightly more 489 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: profound because it suggests we have some kind of drive 490 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: to love in our hearts no matter what. And I 491 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: kind of liked it, but life lives on is kind 492 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: of disappointing. It didn't matter. There's there's plenty that Bob 493 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: observed and said in his life that's much more interesting. 494 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: But in the funny I mean that like this is 495 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: this is how our memories get made. They get made 496 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: falsely or they don't matter. You know, we choose to live, 497 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: but they become that person's words. You know, we are 498 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: constantly inventing and reinventing the dead. At this point, Bobby 499 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: may as well have said it, and it's something he 500 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: could have said. And I think that that's even more 501 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: interesting in a funny way, is that we're all perfectly 502 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: happy to assign him those words because they seem so Bobby. 503 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: He was just this little Yota boy, you know, so 504 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: like why not sure? It seemed Bobby like Lata's loves whatever, 505 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: so true that in the end it doesn't really matter. 506 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: I mean the way that Helen got, you know, fixated 507 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: on the journal m for all those years, you the 508 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: journalist got fixated on the phrase right and find and 509 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: finding it um And in the end, it doesn't really 510 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: matter where the phrase came from, or even exactly what 511 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: the phrase was in the profound emotional scheme of the story. 512 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: When you do travel to Washington, d C. And And 513 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: you you meet Jen, Bobby's girlfriend. Um, she is prepared 514 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: to and has you know, wanted to for years. Have 515 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: Helen be able to read the journal? Um. She gives 516 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: you the journal and says, at some point, I'd love 517 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: to have this back, but you know here, I mean, 518 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: one of the most moving parts of your Peace are 519 00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: Helen's epiphany when she reads Bobby's final journal that Bobby 520 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: was a young man, he wasn't a boy anymore, and 521 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 1: that she his mother, wasn't at the center of his life. 522 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: That Jen was at the center of his life, which 523 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: is why Jen had so desperately wanted to hold onto 524 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: that that piece of him, a painful secret that was 525 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: sort of in this journal. I mean, you know, in 526 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: some ways, Helen just wanted it because she wanted everything 527 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: that was Bobby's. She just wanted to reconstruct him. It 528 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: was just a metaphorical way of making him the whole 529 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: if she couldn't have him. But in some ways it 530 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: was also just glimpsing who he was at that moment. 531 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: In time, being able to spend time in his company again, 532 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: and yes, wanting to see you know, she was all 533 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: over his previous journals. His family was Oliver his previous journals. 534 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: He spoke glowingly about his family in those journals. He 535 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: was still a young boy, and unlike most adolescent kids, 536 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: he wasn't ripping up his family. He was talking about 537 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: how great that he were. He was very close to them. 538 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: So I think her fantasy in some way was that 539 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: there would just be more about the nuclear family. But 540 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: it was a relief. I think in some ways, it's 541 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: just is to discover, oh, he was his own man. 542 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: I was, you know, I wasn't a part of his 543 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: life anymore. And there are things in that journal that 544 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: are so mind blowing that like shed whole windows into 545 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: like I mean, there are goose pumpling things. But I 546 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: mean I think that that was like a big takeaway 547 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: for her. In some ways. It was to sort of see, oh, 548 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: my boys all grown up, he's all grown up. That 549 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: this wasn't about me. I mean, the things that it 550 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: was about were extraordinary. That the journal was about were extraordinary, 551 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 1: you know, And the words in that journal were extraordinary. 552 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I get, I get she was just thinking 553 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: about them. What is so amazing is that there was 554 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: this thing that was looming for twenty years that she 555 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,399 Speaker 1: was sure contained. It did not contain it never does. 556 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: It did not have inside it at what she thought 557 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: it did, And the reasons Jim kept it weren't the 558 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: reasons she thought she did. You know, all the motives 559 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: we assigned to other people are never the stories we 560 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: tell ourselves are so often not stories that are true. 561 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: You know, how we know what we think we know 562 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: does not end up being the right thing. I mean, 563 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, having the wrong tattoo, having the wrong story, 564 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: and in some ways a metaphor for everything. You know. 565 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: It also strikes me that in the end, in being 566 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: able to see that final journal, she actually had a 567 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: moment that she would have had had Bobby lived, which 568 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: was the realization, oh, my boy is a young man 569 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 1: and I am not you know, the son at the 570 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: center of his universe. I am that's right, and and 571 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: and she she actually ended up developmentally getting to have that, 572 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 1: even though uh way later and in a completely heartbreaking way. Yeah, 573 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: that's a beautiful way of putting it. I mean, I 574 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: think that again, because he was so young, so much 575 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,280 Speaker 1: of his life was still locked away in his mother's 576 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: heart as like her little boy, you know, And why 577 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: why wouldn't he be sort of enshrined in that way 578 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: and her heart in her memory? But you were? And 579 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: had she got to go to a wedding and see 580 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: him pledge his love to to Jen, had she had 581 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: a tiny grand baby, you know, from Bobby anything, seen 582 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: them by a house, seen them even move in together. 583 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: He was still living with my brother, you know. I 584 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: mean he still seemed like a kid. He still seemed 585 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: like a kid. So as you say, yes, I think 586 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: that it did allow her maybe to right go one 587 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: beat further down the road and see him as a 588 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 1: fully realized adult. I mean she knew it anyway, But 589 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: I think that this was living in his head, in 590 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: his mature head, as a person whose thoughts were now 591 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: utterly consumed by someone else. I will never ever encourage 592 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 1: anyone to get on with their lives, even gently. Um. 593 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: I think it's a kind of tyranny. I think some 594 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: people never get beyond their grief, and that's the choice 595 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: they make, and they or don't make their chiefs their 596 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: griefs just to hold them and not the other way 597 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: they can't hold it. And that's one thing I learned 598 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: from being around Bob sr. It's not for me to 599 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: judge if it gets in the way of your family's life. 600 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 1: It's something that you have to deal with, and it's 601 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: something you have to contend with within the marriage. All 602 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 1: those things, But I think the biggest thing is like 603 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: the epistemological thing that we have been discussing, which is like, 604 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: how do you know what you know? I mean, no 605 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,479 Speaker 1: one had the same I mean, let me just put 606 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: this out there. Helen thought that Jen had lived with 607 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: the family for one week after Bobby died. Jeff, Bobby's 608 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: younger brother, who was living with his parents at the time, 609 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: I thought that Jim lived with them for six months. 610 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,760 Speaker 1: Jen thought it was for two months. Okay, they thought 611 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 1: they were sure they knew where Life Loved On came from, 612 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: and they were wrong. They had no idea where it 613 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: came from. Jen was sure when she was living with 614 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: the mackail Vane's that she slept in Bobby's brother's room, 615 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: and that Jeff very bravely slept in his brother's bed, 616 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 1: his dead brother's bed, Whereas Jeff was absolutely certain that 617 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: Jen very bravely slept in her dead fiance's bed. I mean, 618 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: AMY think I can never sit anywhere and argue with 619 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: any kind of force about any memory that I have, 620 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: about anything that I think I know and be dead 621 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: certain anymore. And that doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist, 622 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 1: that there are isn't such a thing as like real 623 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: objective truth. I think that there is. But I mean, 624 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: I I just think in terms of the fallibility of 625 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: our own memories. I think that our our emotions so 626 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: should shape them, misshape them, reshape them, prittify them, discolor them, 627 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: do all sorts of things, you know. I mean the 628 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 1: image that I have have is of a snow globe 629 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: getting all shaken up. That if you had reported this 630 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: story four years ago, or if you had reported it 631 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 1: four years from now, those memories among all of the 632 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: macle van's might be completely different than the ones that 633 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: they had during that sleiver of time. Oh for sure, 634 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: I had memories of the macall van's telling me things 635 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: about at their grief at years three and four, because 636 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 1: I would see them. They would come to visit my parents, 637 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, I see them when I was visiting my 638 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: mom in Florida. They they would um, you know, sort 639 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: of describe things, and I would raise them during the 640 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: interview and they wouldn't remember having said them to me, 641 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I had very different memories of 642 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: what they told me about their grieving. And here's something, okay, 643 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: here's something. This is I think the craziest thing. After 644 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,799 Speaker 1: the piece came out, I had dinner with Jeff and Jen, 645 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,720 Speaker 1: who hadn't seen each other in twenty years, and Jeff 646 00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: said to me, you know, I really love the piece, 647 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you something. I both did and did 648 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: not recognize my dad. Everything that he said to you, 649 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: you captured accurately and exactly. And it's one facet of 650 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,479 Speaker 1: my father, but it's not the only facet of my father. 651 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: I know a very different man. I know a different guy. 652 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: And when my wife read that's story, she wasn't sure 653 00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: she recognized the man you described either. It's just one 654 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: side of himself that he was interested in showing you. 655 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there thinking, well, I'm a journalist. I 656 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: thought I captured him much better, you know, a much 657 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: fuller kind of complex. I thought I didn't. I didn't 658 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 1: think he was like mono dimension all at all. I 659 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: thought that I had really captured something about his essence. 660 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: But they were telling me that I missed something, which 661 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: means that I had the wrong tattoo. I mean, what 662 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: do you do with that? How do we know? What? 663 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: We know? All the selves, all of the selves within us, 664 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: and all the stories, right, all the stories we tell? 665 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:43,439 Speaker 1: How reliable are our stories and our memories? How well? 666 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: You know? How reliable was the thing that I wrote? 667 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: You know, I thought it was pretty darn reliable, and 668 00:41:49,480 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: it was, you know, and it wasn't mm hmmm. For 669 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,439 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart 670 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,440 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 671 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: favorite shows. H