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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The FBI says the Charlie current conspiracy theories are legit.

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Speaker 2: That's the first time we've ever heard that from the government.

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Speaker 1: Think about it, jfk UFOs. It goes on and on

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Speaker 1: and on.

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Speaker 2: But tonight, Cash Purtel says he is actually investigating the many,

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Speaker 2: many conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of Charlie Kirk. This

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Speaker 2: as the suspect's male lover is ied I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 2: this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for being with us. Listen.

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Speaker 3: Two weeks ago, our countries robbed of one of the

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Speaker 3: brightest lights of our times.

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Speaker 1: My husband Shpriley.

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Speaker 4: He wanted to deceive young men, just like the one who.

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Speaker 2: Took his life, Kirk's wife Erica, wowing the crowd and

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Speaker 2: sending a message like no other. This as Cash Patel,

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Speaker 2: the director of the FBI, is literally chasing down conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 5: FBI Director Patel now investigating conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's murder.

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Speaker 5: Patel was able to dismiss the theory a Pilo was

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Speaker 5: involved because they turned off their transponder moments after the shooting,

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Speaker 5: but says others could be credible. They include theories about accomplices,

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Speaker 5: authenticity of the text, conversation between Robinson and his roommate,

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Speaker 5: the bully's trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black,

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Speaker 5: was clad in white that day.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've never heard the government even acknowledge conspiracy theories,

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Speaker 2: much less state that they will be investigated with me

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Speaker 2: an all star panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 2: are learning tonight in the Charlie Kirk shooting straight out

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Speaker 2: to Victoria Churchill joining us from Washington, US political reporter

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Speaker 2: Dailymail dot com.

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Speaker 1: Victoria, what is Patel saying? I think Director.

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Speaker 6: Patel is saying that he wants to explore everything and

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Speaker 6: anything connected to this. But this should come as no

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Speaker 6: surprise because Patel considered Kirk a close friend, a ally

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Speaker 6: in the MAGA movement and the greater Conservative movement. But

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Speaker 6: I also do want to point out that Director Patel

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Speaker 6: and the FBI as a whole maybe have not necessarily

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Speaker 6: been at the forefront of this investigation despite what they

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Speaker 6: have said, because of course, Robinson was turned in by

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Speaker 6: his own father.

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Speaker 1: That was I believe it's.

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Speaker 2: A little lady whoa They had the suspect in custody

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Speaker 2: within thirty three hours. Take a look at your crime stats.

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Speaker 2: That rarely happens. So you know a lot was made

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Speaker 2: Victoria Churchill the arrest of two individuals, one claiming I

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Speaker 2: did it. Of course they arrested him. He was cleared

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Speaker 2: than another. So explain to me you're reasoning.

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Speaker 6: So the first individual is somebody who I have heard

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Speaker 6: from people that have actually been active in Utah politics,

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Speaker 6: conservative politics in particular in Utah, that this is somebody

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Speaker 6: that is a known agitator. And so I think there

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Speaker 6: was no surprise that he was there. But he also

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Speaker 6: went in for questioning. But again, this is somebody that

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Speaker 6: didn't like conservatives, so maybe he wanted to claim for

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Speaker 6: some crazy reason, I don't know why he would want

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Speaker 6: to do this, but he possibly wanted to claim responsibility

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Speaker 6: for this. But again, Robinson was turned in by his

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Speaker 6: own father, So at least at this point, we don't

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Speaker 6: know how close the FBI would have been to finding

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Speaker 6: him if he was not submitted by his own father

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Speaker 6: to the authorities.

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Speaker 1: Guys, conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 2: As they are being called, are now being taken as

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Speaker 2: legitimate avenues of investis.

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Speaker 1: Starting with a lot of hand signals.

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Speaker 7: Listen, eagle eyed internet sleuth zero in on the behavior

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Speaker 7: of Kirk's attendance. Just before he was shot, A man

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Speaker 7: standing six feet from Kirk in a white shirt and

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Speaker 7: white baseball cap is seen recording the debate on his phone.

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Speaker 7: Seconds before the shot, that man tips his cap then

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Speaker 7: wipes his nose. A second man in a black shirt

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Speaker 7: glances at the man as he adjusts his white cap,

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Speaker 7: then touches his right arm before folding his arms. Many

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Speaker 7: theorized the hand signals or indications to the shooter.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that was investigated, and this is what we found.

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Speaker 8: Listen, the man in the white hat was giving signals

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Speaker 8: to the shooter.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: The man in the white hat was me. Okay, I

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Speaker 8: did this with my hat. Maybe I touched my nose

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Speaker 8: or something while I'm holding my phone because I'm facetiming.

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Speaker 8: My son and daughter in law, Charlie Kirk was literally

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Speaker 8: like a son to me. I have three sons. He

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Speaker 8: was like my fourth son. My three sons are a

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Speaker 8: little bit older than Charlie. He was like my fourth son.

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Speaker 8: So when he was hit, if your son got hit,

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Speaker 8: what would you do?

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Speaker 1: What would you do?

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Speaker 8: Charlie wasn't there. His eyes were fixed. He wasn't looking

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Speaker 8: at me. He was looking past me, right into eternity.

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Speaker 8: He was with Jesus already.

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Speaker 2: That is where our friends over at Cross examined the

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Speaker 2: podcast is speaking.

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Speaker 1: Is Frank Terrek. Let's see that video again.

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Speaker 2: He is the guy wearing the hat who is making

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Speaker 2: hand signals just before Kirk is murdered, just.

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Speaker 1: Before and you see the other guy.

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Speaker 2: In the blue navy or black T shirt.

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Speaker 9: You know he's making movements as well, so you know,

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Speaker 9: straight out to Franz of Borghart joining us, founder of

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Speaker 9: Borgart Law firm, former prosecutor, professor Louisiana State University.

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Speaker 2: Franz, thank you for being with us. You know what,

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Speaker 2: So one theory shot down pretty quickly, and that vote's

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Speaker 2: ill for the others, but they've got to be investigated.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever had a crazy theory pop up in

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Speaker 2: the middle of a trial or during trial prep? PRIs

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Speaker 2: It's like a false confession. You have to chase it down.

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Speaker 10: So as a defense attorney, I love crazy theories, Nancy,

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Speaker 10: because it creates chaos and it gives me something to

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Speaker 10: work with, especially in cases where it's open and shut

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Speaker 10: like this.

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Speaker 11: One.

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Speaker 10: We know who shot Kurt, we know who. We got

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Speaker 10: the right guy right, and we can claim that these

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Speaker 10: individuals behind him are making hand gestures doing the macarena whatever.

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Speaker 10: But conspiracy doesn't change the facts. And yeah, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 10: They have to vet it, the have to investigate it.

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Speaker 10: I just don't like the head of the FBI making

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Speaker 10: tweets about it because again, it's giving fuel.

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Speaker 11: Put him up to the absturd.

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Speaker 1: Okay, right, let me understand this.

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Speaker 2: Franz Bordhard doesn't like the director of the FBI's tweets. Oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: you in about half the nation do you think he

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Speaker 2: cares that Franz Boorguards or anybody doesn't like his tweets?

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Speaker 1: What's wrong with his tweets? He's just putting it out there.

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Speaker 2: We're used to sub much secrecy within the government, So

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Speaker 2: what's your problem.

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Speaker 10: You can tweet all he wants. The problem is does

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Speaker 10: he have an active knowledge of the investigation? And if

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Speaker 10: he doesn't, his tweets create defenses. So, as someone in

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Speaker 10: the criminal justice system, I only want people making informational

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Speaker 10: exchanges that have active fingers on the pulse of the investigation.

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Speaker 10: And heaven forbid, he's just making a tweet about conspiracies

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Speaker 10: and he doesn't really happen. And look, the head of

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Speaker 10: agencies don't always have their fingers on the pulse.

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Speaker 1: Franz. We don't know what he knows or doesn't know. Okay,

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Speaker 1: he may know.

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm willing to guess he knows more about the

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Speaker 2: Kirk investigation than we do. However, Cardinal rule number one

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Speaker 2: from the elected district attorney who I worked for, who

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Speaker 2: was I believe the greatest elected district attorney in the country,

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Speaker 2: served thirty seven years, the longest at that time. Don't

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Speaker 2: speak to the press. It's not that the press or

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Speaker 2: a multi headed hydra.

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Speaker 1: It's that you commit yourself to a theory.

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Speaker 2: You put it out there and that could change you

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Speaker 2: only hurt your case.

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Speaker 1: So from me and you to Betel, shut your.

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Speaker 2: Pie hole right now. These leads may in fact be legitimate.

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Speaker 2: We don't know that yet. But this hand signal thing,

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Speaker 2: that was all bs technical legal term. Okay, let's move

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Speaker 2: on to the next one. And it has to do

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Speaker 2: with a trajectory.

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Speaker 1: Listen.

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Speaker 5: Online saluts are also hung up on the bullet's trajectory,

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Speaker 5: since clear video of the shooting is still widely available online.

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Speaker 5: Many believe Kirk was wearing a bulletproof vest and the

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Speaker 5: bullet fractured against the vest, sending a fragment into his neck.

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Speaker 5: Others believed the shot ricocheted off the turning point banner

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Speaker 5: behind him, and what was caught on camera was the

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Speaker 5: bullet exiting from the front of his neck. In an

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Speaker 5: emotional tribute at his memorial, Erica Kirk said doctors told

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Speaker 5: her if Charlie had been shot in an operating room,

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Speaker 5: it wouldn't have made a difference, claiming Kirk was gone instantaneously.

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Speaker 2: You know, I used to tell myself the same type

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Speaker 2: of thing after my fiance was murdered.

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Speaker 1: He didn't feel it, he didn't know what happened.

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Speaker 2: If he had been shot in the hospital, it wouldn't

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Speaker 2: have made a difference. I don't know that any of

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Speaker 2: that's true. Now, can we talk about this Kirk wearing

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Speaker 2: a bullet proof vest there there's no evidence of that

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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 1: But regarding the exit wound.

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Speaker 2: We stated at the get go to just got more

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Speaker 2: joining as Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood

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Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast

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Speaker 2: series body bags with Joe Scott Morgan for my purposes,

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Speaker 2: a death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under

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Speaker 2: his belt, all sorts, accidental, natural causes, a determined suicide,

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Speaker 2: and of course homicide Joe Scott Day one, we knew

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Speaker 2: or had surmised, there was no exit wound.

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Speaker 1: There's no conspiracy to that.

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Speaker 12: No, there's not. And if that is the idea here,

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Speaker 12: just follow my logic. You're going to have to get

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Speaker 12: the surgeon who attended him at the emergency room at

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Speaker 12: the hospital where he was evacuated to. And you're also

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Speaker 12: going to have to get the State and Medical Examiner's office,

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Speaker 12: the forensic pathologist that was involved in this case to

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Speaker 12: get on board. Also relative to all of this, what

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Speaker 12: we're hearing right now is that this is a single

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Speaker 12: gunshot wound to the neck and that the round was

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Speaker 12: actually found beneath the skin. I don't know why this

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Speaker 12: is such a mystery. I don't know why people say

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Speaker 12: that this is an empirical impossibility, Nancy. I've handled a

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Speaker 12: lot of gunshot wounds involving high velocity rounds where the

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Speaker 12: bullet does not completely exit the body. It just doesn't

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Speaker 12: happen every single time, So everybody out there on impact.

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Speaker 2: I would say the majority of homicide cases I have

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Speaker 2: investigated or prosecuted have at least one bullet still in

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Speaker 2: the body. So I don't understand the uproar about the

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Speaker 2: fact that his bullet.

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Speaker 1: Lodged in his neck. First of all, how could it

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Speaker 1: have lodged in the neck. For me, it's.

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Speaker 2: Sop standard operating procedure that at least one bullet stays

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Speaker 2: in the body. And I'm glad, I mean, if you

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Speaker 2: can make a silver lining out of.

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Speaker 1: A murder, I'm.

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Speaker 2: Glad the bullet was retrieved from the body because the

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Speaker 2: next thing we would know, with the conspiracy theory that that's.

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Speaker 1: Not the real bullet you found on the ground. That's

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Speaker 1: not it. Yeah, in place.

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Speaker 12: I mean, even if it's fragmented, if you have the

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Speaker 12: base of the round, you can take that base of

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Speaker 12: the round and do the testing based upon the rifle

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Speaker 12: that they did in fact recover and look, if it

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Speaker 12: doesn't match up, fine and good, go look for another

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Speaker 12: rifle out there. But if the rifling on this round

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Speaker 12: that was recovered at autopsy, which would have been at

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Speaker 12: the Utah State Medical Examiner's office, which let me Reinforce

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Speaker 12: again is a fine organization and are now being accused

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Speaker 12: by people online as being part of a grander conspiracy.

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Speaker 12: If that round was recovered at autopsy, it'll be compared ballistically.

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Speaker 12: It'll be compared either at the State Crime Lab in

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Speaker 12: Utah or it'll be compared at Quantico with the FBI's

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Speaker 12: resource is that they have there. We still don't even

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Speaker 12: have an autopsy report yet. Let me tell you another

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Speaker 12: bit of reporting that'll come out also. There will be

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Speaker 12: surgical notes, so if people have questions about this, this

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Speaker 12: random surgeon that was on duty, he will write up

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Speaker 12: a report based upon what he saw in his examination

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Speaker 12: of Charlie Kirk at that moment, immediately after this had happened.

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Speaker 12: He will talk about this in great detail. Those records

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Speaker 12: will be with a state medical examiner. They would have

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Speaker 12: reviewed them. They will give their own opinion about this.

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Speaker 12: And I can tell you there was more than one

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Speaker 12: forensic pathologist in that room while his examination would have

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Speaker 12: been done, there would have been multiple eyes on this.

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Speaker 2: Case joining us shortly. Ballistics expert to show us and

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Speaker 2: explain to us all about the weapon, the mauser that

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Speaker 2: was used to kill Charlie Kirk. And the bizarre engravings

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Speaker 2: on the bullet and exactly how this shot could have

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Speaker 2: gone down without a conspiracy a group of people helping

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Speaker 2: the shooter.

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Speaker 1: Is it rational? Don't know.

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Speaker 2: We'll hear from coh loremore in just one moment. But

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Speaker 2: versus doctor Bethany Marshall, renown Psychoana I was joining side

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Speaker 2: of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You

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Speaker 2: can see her now on Peacock and you can find

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Speaker 2: her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, here's

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Speaker 2: the deal. Yes, some of these firite theories are falling through.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious why to people? Why can't they just accept

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Speaker 2: the truth? Why does there have to be a conspiracy?

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Speaker 2: You know, when Joe Scott and I went to the

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Speaker 2: scene in Texas where JFK was shot and I examined

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Speaker 2: it for myself and I reviewed the video, I had

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Speaker 2: always thought that's just a bunch of hogwash conspiracy. But

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Speaker 2: when I saw JFK's head go forward from a shot

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Speaker 2: and then backwards from another shot, I will tell you it'

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Speaker 2: stopped me in my tracks.

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Speaker 1: Also, can we think about Gabby Patito.

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Speaker 2: For one moment, if it had not been for an

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Speaker 2: online sleuth Red Blue and with Shane I believe was

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Speaker 2: their name, who had been following Gabby's disappearance online and

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Speaker 2: they saw her white four transit part in dispersed camping,

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Speaker 2: which is in the middle of nowhere, not a porty potty,

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Speaker 2: not a water hookup, no lights, nothing out.

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Speaker 1: There with the coyotes and the critters.

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Speaker 2: They saw that by happenstance, and they solved the case,

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Speaker 2: the mysteries to where her remains were. So before we

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Speaker 2: pooh pooh conspiracy theorists, let's keep.

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Speaker 1: That in mind.

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Speaker 2: But my question to you, Dr Bethany is why can't

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Speaker 2: people For instance, Joscott was saying, except the bullet did

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Speaker 2: not exit his neck, bam. What's with the conspiracy theories?

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Speaker 13: And one of those conspiracies about why the bullet did

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Speaker 13: not exit his neck is that he was out there

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Speaker 13: to save people, and even in death, he saved people

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Speaker 13: by blocking the bullet from the people behind him. So

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Speaker 13: we could go on and on. You do, Nancy, conspiracy theorists.

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Speaker 1: I don't conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 2: That's more of an observation, okay, by the but not

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Speaker 2: exiting his neck, it potentially may have saved a bystander

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Speaker 2: from getting shot.

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Speaker 1: That's just what used to be. I think it was

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Speaker 1: that he hadn't talking.

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Speaker 2: About zany theories, Like zany a plane was supposed to

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Speaker 2: take off with the killer. There's a whole group of

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Speaker 2: theory of supporters helping the shooter. I mean, the theories

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Speaker 2: are really spinning out, and Patel has to track down everyone.

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Speaker 2: So explain to me the mindset of a conspiracy theorist.

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Speaker 2: Next you're gonna be telling me that's not his body

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Speaker 2: in the coffin a conspiracy.

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Speaker 13: A conspiracy theorist believes that if there's a big event,

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Speaker 13: there's a big cause. They can't believe just that some

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Speaker 13: crazy guy was on the top of a roof and

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Speaker 13: shot this guy because he was full of hatred. They

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Speaker 13: also turn correlation into causation, like if two things seem

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Speaker 13: remotely similar, there's definitely definitely a causation between the two.

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Speaker 13: They take random events and they try to form a

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Speaker 13: pattern out of them, even if there's no pattern at all.

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Speaker 13: The only pattern I see here, Nancy, is somebody who

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Speaker 13: was very hateful, who wanted to take Charlie Kirk. That

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Speaker 13: is the only pattern.

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Speaker 14: We have.

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Speaker 13: Patterns in forensic science, in psychology.

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Speaker 2: This I'm listening to what you're saying, but I want

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Speaker 2: you to look at your monitor because this is a

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Speaker 2: perfect example. It looks totally weird, right, it looks Look

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Speaker 2: at that that looks thing. It looks like a baseball umpire,

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Speaker 2: the one in the black the dark shirt as well.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I get where they're coming from. It

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Speaker 2: was totally unconnected to the shooting. But taking one or

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Speaker 2: two facts and cobbling them together and coming up with

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Speaker 2: a theory, why do people do that?

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Speaker 1: Is it their need for the truth.

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Speaker 13: There's there's a need to feel that our universe is reliable,

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Speaker 13: that the patterns of this earth are reliable, and there's

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Speaker 13: an explanation for everything. But they find the explanation in

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Speaker 13: linking things together that are are there unlinkable. You can't

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Speaker 13: link somebody with a nervous tick. This guy with the

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Speaker 13: arms on his shoulder remind me a nervous tick.

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Speaker 2: Dare I say it of an a very very old

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Speaker 2: piece of poetry by Thomas Hardy, As I recall, it's

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Speaker 2: called hap hap, which is short for happenstance, where Hardy

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Speaker 2: it pines, I'd rather there be some evil manion, God,

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Speaker 2: small g that wishes ill on me, that's making me suffer,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to thinking.

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Speaker 1: This is all just by happenstance, just happened.

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Speaker 2: I think our minds want to make sense of something

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Speaker 2: that just happened because it doesn't fit in the order

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Speaker 2: of our lives.

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Speaker 13: But you know, Nancy, this is a part of our

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Speaker 13: survival mechanism. If if we did not know where a

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Speaker 13: predator was, we would be more likely to be killed

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Speaker 13: or eaten. But if we knew where the predator was,

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Speaker 13: then we could we could save ourselves. Like say our

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Speaker 13: answers sessors. If they're running through the forest, they're running

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Speaker 13: from a bear, but they don't know where the bear

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Speaker 13: is hiding, there's a greater likelihood that they will be killed.

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Speaker 13: So now, in our modern day society, in the face

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Speaker 13: of the unknown, we have much greater anxiety. I'm thinking

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Speaker 13: about patients who are people who get ghosted or canceled,

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Speaker 13: or somebody doesn't return the call. That is much scary,

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Speaker 13: scarier for them than if like a new date just

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Speaker 13: called and said, hey, I'm not that into you. We

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Speaker 13: all want certainty in our world.

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Speaker 14: I'm filing a criminal information charge to Tyler James Robinson, age.

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Speaker 11: Twenty two with a following crime.

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Speaker 14: Cal one hag remated murder a conto offense or intentionally

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Speaker 14: for knowingly causing the death and Charlie Hurdy under circumstances

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Speaker 14: that created a great risk of death to others. Count

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Speaker 14: two felany discharge of the fight arm causing serious body

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Speaker 14: injury a first degree FELA.

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Speaker 1: Crime. Stores with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 4: That man, that young man, I forgive him.

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Speaker 1: I forgive him because it was what Christ did and

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Speaker 1: is what would do. The answer to hate is not hate.

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Speaker 2: That from our friends at turning Point, that is Erica

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Speaker 2: Kirk forgiving her husband's killer. She's stronger than me. It's

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Speaker 2: just all I can say. Now Trump has a very

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Speaker 2: different opinion and is calling for the death penalty.

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Speaker 1: That is a whole other can of worms joining us

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: A special guest, former Army sniper ballistics expert CoA Laarmore CoA,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. As you know, conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theories are swirling, many of them involving the shooter and

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Speaker 2: the shot, specifically saying that the shot is impossible for

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Speaker 2: someone that is not a sharp shooter like yourself.

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Speaker 1: First of all, let's just start with A and get

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Speaker 1: to Z.

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Speaker 2: Explain to me the shot as you understand it, that

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Speaker 2: killed Charlie Kirk.

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Speaker 11: The shot is very doable. Charlie Kirk was in a

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Speaker 11: vulnerable position at the bottom of a fish bowl, right,

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Speaker 11: the shooter had an elevated position where he could see

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Speaker 11: pretty much anything. The distance also one hundred and sixty yards,

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Speaker 11: so at the end of the day with a couple

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Speaker 11: of range sessions, that's not that far and very doable.

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Speaker 1: With a couple of what sessions range.

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Speaker 11: So I go into the range a couple of times.

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Speaker 11: This very very doable shot.

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Speaker 1: You know what. I'm glad you said that.

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Speaker 2: Hold on co A Chris mcdonne joining me, Director Cole

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Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the Interview Room

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Speaker 2: on YouTube. Chris, they better be tracking down every firing

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Speaker 2: range within a ten to twenty mile radius to see

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Speaker 2: if they can get the shooter on cam.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no question about it, Nancy. And this investigation obviously

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Speaker 3: is still very fluid. It's got two prongs to it.

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Speaker 3: The first one is from the State Bureau of Investigation

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Speaker 3: there in Utah, and they're under the umbrella of what

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Speaker 3: they call SAYAK Statewide Information and Analysis Center. Those are

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Speaker 3: the guys that are chasing most of these conspiracy theories, etc.

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Speaker 3: And then the second lane here is the FBI. And

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Speaker 3: what the FBI has done is they've brought in their

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Speaker 3: evidence teams and they're going to do a laser trajectory

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Speaker 3: analysis and they're going to match that up to what

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Speaker 3: CO is talking here. Whether or not the shooter could

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Speaker 3: have actually shot from that position, it's a no brainer.

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Speaker 3: I agree with the Doc Morgan and as well as Cola.

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Speaker 2: You know, Franz Borghart joining US veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, or,

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Speaker 2: founder Borgheart's law firm. Franz, You're right in that every

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Speaker 2: one of these conspiracies that are being spun out is

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Speaker 2: fodder for the defense. Okay, all these that the shot

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Speaker 2: was impossible, that the perp in custody couldn't have done it,

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Speaker 2: that's just more fuel for the flame, and some good

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Speaker 2: defense attorney is going to make hay with that.

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Speaker 10: So where there's smoke, there's fire, Nancy, and sometimes there's

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Speaker 10: smoke screens, And the more chaos a defense attorney can

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Speaker 10: play with, the more opportunity there is for reasonable doubt

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Speaker 10: or in this case, possibly getting a juror to say, hey,

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Speaker 10: I think he did it, but I don't want to

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Speaker 10: put him to death. So all of this stuff, all

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Speaker 10: of this stuff is just fuel for what is otherwise

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Speaker 10: seemingly an open and shutcase against this person.

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Speaker 1: Says you.

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Speaker 2: You know we thought that about OJ Simpson too, and

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Speaker 2: Robert Blake and Todd mom Casey Anthony. We always say

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Speaker 2: open a shut. Well, it ain't legal term, you know what.

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Speaker 2: Let's get away from flights of fancy and old English literature.

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Speaker 2: I J Cooe Loremore joining us. Okay, so you're saying

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Speaker 2: the shot is possible with a few practices.

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Speaker 1: At the range.

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Speaker 2: What else can you tell me about the weapon that

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Speaker 2: we believe was used. Next thing we're going to hear

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Speaker 2: it's not that weapon. It was somebody else's weapon that

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Speaker 2: hasn't been recovered.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about the weapon, yes, Nancy.

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Speaker 11: So it was a bolt action rifle, a little bit

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Speaker 11: older than what I have right here, right, both action

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Speaker 11: meaning you have to chamber around physically every time you

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Speaker 11: press the trigger. Now, these rifles are very accurate, and

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Speaker 11: using that weapon, you can achieve very accurate fire at

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Speaker 11: longer distances than one hundred and sixty yards.

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Speaker 1: Okay, here's my question.

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Speaker 2: Right there, you said this weapon is very accurate as

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Speaker 2: compared to what what's not accurate? A daisy B shotgun

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Speaker 2: for a twelve year old? What do you mean this

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Speaker 2: one is accurate?

441
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: What about all the others? How is this one one different?

442
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 11: So the difference between his and others? Right, he had

443
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 11: the advantage of having also a scope on it. Right,

444
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 11: this is going to magnify his target and it's going

445
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 11: to make it a lot easier to shoot. It'll be

446
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 11: a clearer picture, it'll zoom it in. It's just going

447
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 11: to make it overall.

448
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: When you say zoom it in, give me an example,

449
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 2: like if I look through that at an ant one

450
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 2: hundred feet away, what would it look like would be

451
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: able to see is a little bit of insect eyes?

452
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: How close are we talking?

453
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 11: It's like having it in a magnifying glass. So if

454
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 11: you were zooming in on an ant, right, depending on

455
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 11: the magnification, whether that's eight times to twenty times, it

456
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 11: could be the size of a human.

457
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: So, Cole, you're a sharpshooter, But could a regular person

458
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 2: make this shot?

459
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 11: Yes, I believe a regular person can make this shot.

460
00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of questions.

461
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: First of all, when we say thirty six, we're referring

462
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: to the bullet.

463
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: What do you know about the bullet?

464
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 11: So this is the bullet right here, Nancy. This is

465
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 11: a thirty odd six. It travels at about twenty nine

466
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 11: hundred feet per second. It also is used in Middle

467
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 11: America for big game hunting. Dear L Coggs, so on

468
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 11: and so forth.

469
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 2: What do you make of claims the bullet could not

470
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: have lodged in Charlie Kirk's neck.

471
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 11: I think definitely anything as possible. I think why people

472
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 11: are saying that is just because it's uncommon. This round

473
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 11: normally goes through people.

474
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: Why I don't get it. Why that bullet typically goes

475
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: through and others don't.

476
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 11: It's a larger round moving in a faster speed. That's

477
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 11: why it's used for hunting big game.

478
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: Ky Well, as you know, conspiracy theories are spinning out

479
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 2: as we speak tonight.

480
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: Next thing you know, we're going to hear the DNA

481
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: as in the AJ Simpson case, was planted.

482
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: So explain to me in the real world, not flights

483
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: to fancy, where you would expect to find DNA on

484
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: the weapon, on the bullets on the casings anywhere and show.

485
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: Me how the DNA would have been left.

486
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 11: So starting off with the weapon, I definitely would expect

487
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 11: to find DNA here. I'd expect to find it first

488
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 11: and foremost on the trigger right, also right where I'm

489
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 11: holding my hand on the grip of the stock. Also

490
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 11: when you chambering around, you're grabbing this lever, so DNA

491
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 11: is on there as well. And then finally you're going

492
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 11: to put your cheek on the stock, so saliva and

493
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 11: stuff is going to go on here while you're breathing,

494
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 11: your face is on it DNA. This is definitely going

495
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 11: to be a DNA point as well.

496
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 14: Well.

497
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: How are you getting spit on the gun? What CoA?

498
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 11: So you're you're breathing when you're taking your shot right,

499
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 11: so your mouth is going to be open right and

500
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 11: could be found right there on the back of the stock.

501
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: That's explaining a lot.

502
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 11: What about the bullets, so there's definitely gonna be DNA

503
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 11: on there as well. While loading the rounds right, you

504
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 11: have to load them into the chamber the magazine, you're

505
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 11: definitely gonna have DNA on the bullets as well, unless

506
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 11: you're extremely careful using gloves.

507
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: Speaking of the bullets, Cola, Laura.

508
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: More evidence suggests that the killer engraved the bullets.

509
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: That's another question for the strength.

510
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 2: What lonely dude is sitting at home engraving bullets? But

511
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: that said, how in the heck do you engrave bullets?

512
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: CoA?

513
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 11: So it's very easy, Nancy. First of all, I assume

514
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 11: takes some kind of Dremmel tool right here and that

515
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 11: spins this drill bit and allows you to carve into

516
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 11: the side of the casing or bullet.

517
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: How long would that take? I mean, you have to.

518
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 2: Have pinpoint precision to engrave a bullet.

519
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: How do you do that? Have you ever seen it done?

520
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 11: It's actually pretty quick. It's like writing with a marker. Basically,

521
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 11: your handwriting might not be the best, but the message

522
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 11: we'll get across.

523
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever seen it done? CoA.

524
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 11: I've never seen anyone in my line of work engrave

525
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 11: on their bullets.

526
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: Now, because you're normal, okay, You're not hunched over an

527
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: engraving desk down in the basement in mommy's house with

528
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: a light hanging over your head engraving a bullet.

529
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to figure out what more evidence I

530
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: can get now that you've showed me that tool. I

531
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: wonder if one of.

532
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: Those is going to be found in his home that

533
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: he shared with his alleged male lover, the allegations of

534
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: him being a furry don't care, I care about. Hold

535
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: up that tool again, what did you call it? This

536
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: is a dremal nancy, but dremmel is actually a brand

537
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: name McDonald's or xerox copy. What is the actual tool called.

538
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 11: It's a rotary grinder.

539
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: A rotary grinder.

540
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: Okay, don't move, Joe Scott Morgan, wan't see and jump in,

541
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: Joe Scott.

542
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 12: Yeah, I was well done by Coda. He described us

543
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 12: down to a t relative to DNA deposition. Two things here.

544
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 12: First off, this weapon it's a ninety it's a Mauser

545
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 12: ninety eight. That means it has an internal mag which

546
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 12: means it's not external where you see external magazine. So

547
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 12: he would have had to the perpetrator would have had

548
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 12: to have loaded this internally. Where you're pushing the rounds down,

549
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 12: a point of contact would probably be the thumb, over

550
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 12: and over and over again until he gets the internal

551
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 12: magazine topped off. Now back to the dremal tool, what's

552
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 12: going to come into play? Here, Nancy is. They're going

553
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 12: to reach out probably to their question Document section. I

554
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 12: would imagine within the FBI, they're going to get samples

555
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 12: of this guy's handwriting and they will try to compare it.

556
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 12: They'll try to compare it to what was left behind

557
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 12: on the casings themselves, on that soft metal casing where

558
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 12: he would have engraved at that point in time. And yeah,

559
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 12: I know that it's kind of a long shot, but

560
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 12: there are just certain things what are referred to as

561
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,719
Speaker 12: neuro muscular responses between our eyes and our writing, that

562
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 12: you can't change. There will be features there that will

563
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 12: be identifiable relative to his handwriting.

564
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: Cole Laurenlour, I know you heard all that Joe Scott

565
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: just said, which was a lot of information.

566
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: You are a former Army sniper.

567
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: You can make this shot, you say a regular person

568
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: could make the shot. How long did you train? What

569
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: does that mean to be an army sniper?

570
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 11: First off, Army sniper school is five weeks long. Also,

571
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 11: I've trained for two years to become an Army sniper.

572
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 11: And then you have follow on scouls which I competed

573
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 11: in the International Sniper competition and I also participated in

574
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 11: Army Mountain Riflemen course, So that's the Army's Mountain sniper school.

575
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 15: The messages also referred to engraving bullets and a mention

576
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 15: of a scope and the rifle being unique messages from

577
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 15: the contact. Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits.

578
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 15: Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found

579
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 15: with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices

580
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 15: bulge's capital wo, what's this question? Mark. Inscriptions on the

581
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 15: three unfired casings read hey fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point,

582
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 15: up arrow symbol, right arrow and symbol, and three down

583
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 15: arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read oh belichow belachow,

584
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 15: belichow chow chow, and a third on fired casing read

585
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 15: if you read this, you are gay LMAO.

586
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 7: Robinson's neighbors speculating about the suspect since he was arrested.

587
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 7: Robinson and his roommate were known recluses, rarely seen leaving

588
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 7: their home except for work in school, and virtually never

589
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 7: entertaining visitors. However, neighbors noticed an unusual amount of traffic

590
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 7: on their street in the weeks leading up to the shooting,

591
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 7: and they did not recognize any of the cars, many

592
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 7: of them marked without of state plates.

593
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: It's called routine evidence, not that it's typical routine, but

594
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: evidence of someone's routine. These two, the shooting suspect and

595
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: roommate alleged Furry, were recluses to Victoria, Churchill joining US

596
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 2: political reporter dailymail dot com joining us out of DC.

597
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: Is this true? They rarely had people in their home.

598
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,959
Speaker 2: That was very unusual for them, but yet leading up

599
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: to the time of the shooting, it it was like

600
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,479
Speaker 2: a parking lot, so many cars outside their home.

601
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: Neighbors had never seen that before Victoria.

602
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 6: This is kind of I think what Erica Kirk, his widow,

603
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 6: was talking about at the memorial on Sunday, that there

604
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 6: is an epidemic of men who are lonely and need

605
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 6: to find a purpose and a calling and a community.

606
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 6: And you know, it seems like these two, outside of

607
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 6: each other, did not have much of that. And you know,

608
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 6: this is a reason why community and I mean just

609
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 6: outside of this case, this is something that gets talked

610
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 6: about a lot by conservatives is to change the politics,

611
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 6: you have to change the culture. And in our culture,

612
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 6: there's a lot of a lack of you know, so

613
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 6: called third spaces where people aren't at home, aren't at work,

614
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 6: or aren't at school, and aren't at home.

615
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 16: Community gathering and finding like minded individuals, I think is

616
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 16: something that plagues you know, Generation Z, generation Alpha, even

617
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 16: some millennials, particularly men who may not necessarily be more social.

618
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 16: I think women tend to be a little bit more social,

619
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 16: and so you know, it's it's not surprising that these

620
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 16: two and particularly Robinson, who is you know, at least

621
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 16: right now the shooter in this case, that he did

622
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 16: not have a community, did not have a group of

623
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 16: support to make sure And how did you.

624
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 2: Mean by that, at least right now is the shooter?

625
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: Do you think somebody else is the shooter?

626
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 6: Well, this is the evidence that we are going off

627
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 6: of right now, as is the FBI, and as is

628
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 6: everyone else.

629
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall.

630
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 2: That was a mouthful all of which everything Victoria Churchill

631
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: said is true, now true.

632
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: To take what she said and use it in a

633
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: murder case, help me out.

634
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 13: Well, what I would hear in terms of a murder

635
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 13: case is that their primary attachments were online. So if

636
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 13: you want to gather behavioral evidence, you're going to look

637
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 13: at their online activity. Somebody who writes on a bullet

638
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 13: about getting a bulge and then a meme for a

639
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 13: smiley face after that, again, I would think about that

640
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 13: being sexually motivated. I know they were a part of

641
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 13: the furry community, which was all online in this case

642
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 13: in which in which pornography and pretending to be man creature.

643
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 2: Are you at Windsor Castle, I'm not. We're not having

644
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: high tea with Canilla right now. The bullet was engraved

645
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: about an erection. That's what this whack adoodle not desist.

646
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: He's legally insane. He's thinking about his erection. He's engraving

647
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 2: a bullet about his erection, the bullet he and his

648
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: to use to murder Charlie Kirk. Now I'm not a shrink,

649
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 2: but that means something.

650
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 13: What I think it means that the aggression and the

651
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 13: dominance over another male and the notoriety that it would

652
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 13: bring about was sexually exciting to him. Aggression and sex

653
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 13: go together often for men who are criminals. We see

654
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 13: this with serial killers, we see this with sadistic rapists,

655
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 13: we see this with pedophiles. They try to control the victim,

656
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 13: have power over the victim, and it is sexually exciting

657
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 13: to them. I would think that the motivation for this crime,

658
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 13: while many people conspiracy therapists, theorists, UI, everybody, we would

659
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 13: want to think it's politically motivated, like there would be

660
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 13: something meaningful or reasonable, or at least some type of

661
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,919
Speaker 13: a motivation we could understand. I think of this again

662
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 13: as being more sexually motivated. That the aggression and the

663
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 13: violence made him feel like a man, and that's why

664
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 13: he put it on the bullet that went in his

665
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 13: big old phallic symbol, the gun.

666
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 2: Okay, I've got a question for you. You're saying that to

667
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: get motive we're going to have to look at everything

668
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 2: online because he basically had no interaction with anyone except

669
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 2: for his alleged male lover.

670
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: So that's what we're looking at.

671
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: How does his fantasy life regarding furries fit into his

672
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 2: out of body experiences?

673
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 13: Well, I think with furries there are many aspects of

674
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 13: the furry community, but one aspect is called ERP, which

675
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 13: is erotic role play in which one dresses up as

676
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 13: a furry or as an animal. Other people tell them

677
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 13: what to do, and they create vignettes in which they

678
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 13: interact with each other.

679
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 1: Now.

680
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 13: I don't know if he was a voyeur or doing

681
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 13: this online, but this tells me that this guy lives

682
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 13: in a fantasy world, that there is a lot of

683
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 13: role play going on.

684
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: Now.

685
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 13: Furries also have personalities, or they wear furst suits, so

686
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 13: they mess up as people they are not.

687
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: It's not just furries this guy's interested in. It's not

688
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: just his a legend male lover. It's really crossing the line.

689
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: Listen to one side in which he's interested.

690
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,720
Speaker 7: Robinson's corned history surfaces. Robinson earned an award on steam

691
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 7: for frequently playing Furry Shades of Gay, a collection of

692
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 7: choose your own adventure sex scenes between humanoid animal characters.

693
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 7: On fur affinity dot com, Robinson follows Red Rusker, a

694
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 7: controversial artist who published cubporn between a clearly adult character

695
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 7: and an eight year old possum. Robinson his friends with

696
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 7: the user who post pornographic cartoons of women with grossly

697
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,320
Speaker 7: oversized bellies, sometimes having eaten their partner whole.

698
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: Okay, can you explain that to me?

699
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: It's well to be furry, it's another thing to watch

700
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: furry porn with an eight year old possum, which is

701
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 2: clearly an eight year old boy.

702
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 13: You know, Nancy, because these these furry characters are avatars

703
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,320
Speaker 13: of Tyler. Okay, they're his avatar.

704
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: To Chris mcdonne and joining us homicide detective star of

705
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: the interview room. You know, the neighbors are stating that

706
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: the alleged Purps home was thronged with vehicles, which is

707
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: very uncharacteristic. These two were reclusive recluses. You went to

708
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: the scene.

709
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: Somebody's got to have door cam, which means the fans

710
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: are going to have video of.

711
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,840
Speaker 2: Everybody outside that home. Let's see a shot of the

712
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 2: home that McDonough took.

713
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 17: Yeah, Natcy, I mean they're they're going to have not

714
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 17: only hopefully some door cam video, but maybe some license

715
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 17: plates as well that are coming in and out of

716
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 17: that you know, neighborhood there, and and you know, talking

717
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 17: about all this furry stuff. I mean, maybe this guy

718
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 17: should just have been booked at the Humane Society because

719
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 17: I mean, this stuff, this stuff is it put.

720
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: Him up is absolutely you know what, This is not

721
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 2: a time for levity. Let's move forward with the adults

722
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: and the evidence is what can we make of the

723
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 2: vehicle's part, if anything?

724
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 17: Yeah, well, it just tells us that there's a secondary

725
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 17: possibility that you know, he's got a lot of friends

726
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 17: that may have had pre incident knowledge about this and

727
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 17: one other thing about the let's talk about the showcasing

728
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 17: again one more time. At his house, they found a

729
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 17: showcasing with additional engraving on it that tells me maybe

730
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 17: they also have the box. And if there's a box,

731
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 17: then there's a lot number on those on that box.

732
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 17: They're gonna chase it down.

733
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 2: Also, we are hearing conspiracy theories hatched from another neighbor

734
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: that sees the alleged slator walking through yacking on his

735
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: phone immediately after the shot.

736
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: Question is who's he talking to? Who else knows about

737
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: the shooting.

738
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 5: A homeowner in the neighborhood just off campus where Robinson

739
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 5: stashed his Dodge Challenger turned over doorbell footage of a

740
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 5: man they believe to be Robinson walking past their home

741
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 5: talking on his cell phone just minutes after the shooting.

742
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 5: The homeowners told FBI they heard the man mention the

743
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 5: shooting in his conversation, leading to suggestions Robinson told at

744
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 5: least one other person of his plans and may have

745
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 5: an accomplice.

746
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 7: Candace Owens published a never before seen photo of Robinson

747
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 7: after shooting. Robinson is seen standing at the counter in

748
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 7: a dairy queen seventeen minutes from campus, in a maroon shirt, jeans,

749
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 7: and wearing a black hat with black sunglasses on top.

750
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 7: Owens claims the photo was taken at six thirty eight

751
00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 7: PM while Robinson waited to retrieve his grandfather's rifle.

752
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: That photo on the left from Candasso and Cydney Sumner,

753
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: Crime Story's investigative reporter. Even if it even if that

754
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: is Robinson, how does that fit into the timeline?

755
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 1: Well, this fits. It shows that he was still.

756
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 18: Hanging out in Orum in the area of UVU campus,

757
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 18: waiting to try and get that rifle back. We see

758
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 18: that in that text conversation between Robinson and Lance Twiggs

759
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 18: discussing I'm trying to leave. I wanted to be out

760
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 18: of here by now and to get that gun back,

761
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 18: not only to prevent him from getting caught, but because

762
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 18: that was a family heirloom and he was worried he

763
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 18: would be caught if he didn't have that rifle on him,

764
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 18: which is exactly what his father bought him on later,

765
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 18: send me a picture of your grandfather's rifle and Robinson

766
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 18: couldn't because he didn't have it with it.

767
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: More from Candie Owans, Listen.

768
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 19: I feel this kid, for some reason, some unknown reason,

769
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 19: is being protected, and I'm not the only one.

770
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 1: His family feels that way.

771
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 19: Okay, his family thinks it's odd they don't buy the story. Okay,

772
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 19: Lance's family is telling me that they are not buying

773
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 19: the current story and that they feel that more people

774
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 19: are involved. They think it's odd that the Fed's moved

775
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 19: on from him so quickly, and that the Feds were

776
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 19: being dishonest, and they felt about everything when they first

777
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 19: came out with information that.

778
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: From Candace Owans, have the Feds moved on from him?

779
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: To Franz A borcart joining as veteran trial lawyer Franz,

780
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that they've moved on from the roommate.

781
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: Just because he's not in custody does not mean they've

782
00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: dropped his investigation.

783
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 12: I agree.

784
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 10: I don't think they've moved on from anybody. And just

785
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 10: because there hasn't been an arrest yet doesn't mean there

786
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 10: won't be in arrests. The Feds are very thorough. They

787
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 10: do a great job with their investigations and look Oftentimes

788
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 10: the FEDS will take their time with co conspirators. Sometimes

789
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 10: co conspirators cooperate against principal actors. So I agree, Nancy,

790
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 10: I don't think we should assume anybody has moved on

791
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 10: from anything with regard to this investigation.

792
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the

793
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: Kirk shooting, you may think it's insignificant, but it may

794
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: not be. Please dial eight zero one five seventy nine

795
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: fourteen hundred, repeat eight zero one five seventy nine fourteen hundred,

796
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: or go online to tips dot FBI dot gov. And

797
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 2: now we remember an American hero, Sergeant Ryan Hudson Paduka

798
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: pid killed in the line of duty after ten years

799
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 2: in l E, leaving behind his grieving wife, Whitney, and

800
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: two daughters, Ayana and Layela. American Hero Sergeant Ryan Hudson,

801
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 2: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,