WEBVTT - How to Stay Sane During a Pandemic 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.276 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:22.316 --> 0:00:25.796 where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:25.836 --> 0:00:28.996 I'm Noah Felt. Every week we try to give you 0:00:29.036 --> 0:00:31.556 the story behind the stories, but in this episode it's 0:00:31.556 --> 0:00:34.196 a little bit different. We're going to explore how we 0:00:34.356 --> 0:00:39.236 feel about the news, or specifically, how we feel about coronavirus. 0:00:39.836 --> 0:00:44.036 In this strange moment where the epidemic is dominating our headlines, 0:00:44.396 --> 0:00:47.356 it's even more important than ever to pay attention to 0:00:47.396 --> 0:00:51.396 our emotions, to our well being, and to how those 0:00:51.436 --> 0:00:54.756 things relate to the stories we read in the news. 0:00:55.476 --> 0:00:58.796 Life as we know it is turned upside down. Schools 0:00:58.876 --> 0:01:04.196 are closed, offices are closed, long lines at supermarkets. It's 0:01:04.276 --> 0:01:07.276 very easy to feel anxious, it's very easy to feel hopeless. 0:01:08.156 --> 0:01:11.836 But Laurie Santos has some good tips for how to cope, 0:01:11.996 --> 0:01:15.196 or she would probably put it how to regulate herself. 0:01:15.196 --> 0:01:18.316 She's a professor of psychology at Yale University, where one 0:01:18.356 --> 0:01:21.476 of her classes, called Psychology and the Good Life, has 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:23.716 become the most popular class in the history of Yale 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:28.636 University and has attracted five hundred thousand students on a Coruserah, 0:01:28.716 --> 0:01:32.116 you heard that right, Pushkin Fans may also know Laurie 0:01:32.156 --> 0:01:35.036 as the host of The Happiness Lab, her podcast where 0:01:35.036 --> 0:01:37.836 she uses scientific research to talk about how to achieve 0:01:38.076 --> 0:01:41.996 and maintain happiness and well being in life. Needless to 0:01:42.036 --> 0:01:44.476 say it, Laurie is more than qualified to help us 0:01:44.516 --> 0:01:47.236 deal with coronavirus anxiety. She is, in fact, the one 0:01:47.356 --> 0:01:53.356 go to expert that you can think of. Laurie, Let's 0:01:53.396 --> 0:01:57.396 just start with your own personal experience and what you're 0:01:57.436 --> 0:02:00.316 doing to stay happy. You're in charge of a college 0:02:00.356 --> 0:02:02.836 of three hundred or four hundred undergraduates who are all 0:02:02.996 --> 0:02:05.796 have all flown the coup, So you have a very large, 0:02:05.876 --> 0:02:08.476 very empty nest. How are you handling it? It's been 0:02:08.676 --> 0:02:12.956 surreal and really sad. Honestly, Yale had this very incredible 0:02:12.996 --> 0:02:16.796 situation where as Corona is emerging as this awful threat, 0:02:17.316 --> 0:02:19.556 was while our students were on spring break, and so 0:02:19.676 --> 0:02:22.436 Yale made the really hard decision to kick students off 0:02:22.436 --> 0:02:25.156 campus when they are all off on spring break wherever 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:27.036 they were. You know. So we had students who were 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:31.116 in cancoon with a small backpack and things, and they're told, hey, 0:02:31.316 --> 0:02:33.116 don't come back. You know, we'll figure out a way 0:02:33.116 --> 0:02:34.916 to get your textbooks and your laptops and all that 0:02:34.956 --> 0:02:38.116 stuff back to you. And so for our students, it 0:02:38.196 --> 0:02:40.716 was really frantic, right because they didn't even get to 0:02:40.716 --> 0:02:42.876 say goodbye to their friends or pack up their stuff. 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:44.836 Many of them don't know when they're getting their stuff 0:02:44.836 --> 0:02:47.636 because we can't let them on campus. And so managing 0:02:47.756 --> 0:02:51.396 that anxiety for four hundred other students at the same 0:02:51.396 --> 0:02:53.476 time as I'm managing my own anxiety, and I'm sad 0:02:53.516 --> 0:02:55.236 I don't get to say goodbye to these students, and 0:02:55.276 --> 0:02:57.476 I'm uncertain about what's going to happen next and how 0:02:57.516 --> 0:02:59.836 long it's going to take. So it's been it's been 0:02:59.876 --> 0:03:02.596 a lot, both processing it myself and seeing it through 0:03:02.596 --> 0:03:06.236 the student's eyes. You sound very much, unsurprisingly in touch 0:03:06.276 --> 0:03:09.476 with what you're feeling, which is excellent for the us. 0:03:09.476 --> 0:03:11.556 It may not always be so simple to access our 0:03:11.596 --> 0:03:14.636 full set of feelings. How important is it in your 0:03:14.716 --> 0:03:17.676 view for us to try to be more or less 0:03:17.756 --> 0:03:21.356 aware of or conscious of the strange different emotions that 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:24.796 are coursing through all of us still right now? I mean, 0:03:24.836 --> 0:03:27.876 I think it's absolutely essential, if for the only reason 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:29.996 that the only way we're going to make it through 0:03:30.036 --> 0:03:32.876 this crisis. Is to make sure our immune systems are 0:03:32.916 --> 0:03:36.476 functioning at their absolutely optimal level to protect us against 0:03:36.476 --> 0:03:39.156 this physical health threat. And I think that means that 0:03:39.196 --> 0:03:41.076 we need to take the mental health threat of this 0:03:41.116 --> 0:03:45.076 crisis really seriously, Like we're plunging people into social distancing, 0:03:45.436 --> 0:03:47.836 basically not letting them do the one thing that they 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:49.756 really want to do at this time in their life, 0:03:49.756 --> 0:03:51.996 to feel connected and close with other people, you know, 0:03:52.076 --> 0:03:55.196 hug their mom. We basically can't do that anymore. I 0:03:55.276 --> 0:03:58.596 think we know that just the anxiety and uncertainty of 0:03:58.636 --> 0:04:00.796 the situation is the kind of thing that can lead 0:04:00.796 --> 0:04:04.116 people to say, have things like panic attacks and so on. 0:04:04.116 --> 0:04:06.556 One of the most awful things is that, you know, 0:04:06.676 --> 0:04:10.116 a main symptom of coronavirus is you have the shortness 0:04:10.116 --> 0:04:13.356 of breath. That's also the main symptom of feeling anxious, right, 0:04:13.356 --> 0:04:14.996 And so I think a lot of us are even 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:18.316 seeing these phantom symptoms and wondering do I have it? 0:04:18.396 --> 0:04:20.516 Am I really shorter breath? What am I feeling? And 0:04:20.596 --> 0:04:24.036 so I think getting through this crisis successfully is going 0:04:24.076 --> 0:04:26.556 to require a lot. It's going to require figuring out 0:04:26.556 --> 0:04:29.516 political infrastructure, of figuring out medical infrastructure, But I think 0:04:29.516 --> 0:04:32.396 it's also going to involve all of us individually doing 0:04:32.476 --> 0:04:34.796 everything we can to make sure we're flourishing as much 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:37.756 as we can to keep ourselves sane and physically healthy. 0:04:38.396 --> 0:04:40.396 Were you hinting, as I thought maybe you were, that 0:04:40.476 --> 0:04:44.196 there might actually be some clinical connection between mental well 0:04:44.236 --> 0:04:46.956 being and a well functioning immune system. Oh, there's so 0:04:47.076 --> 0:04:50.756 much evidence that immune function really requires not having stress 0:04:50.756 --> 0:04:53.356 and so on. So we know, for example, that really 0:04:53.516 --> 0:04:59.356 upping your sympathetic nervous system function can affect immune functioning too. Right, 0:04:59.396 --> 0:05:02.236 So I think allowing yourself to be incredibly stressed out, 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:05.476 allowing yourself not to sleep that much, both of those 0:05:05.516 --> 0:05:08.636 things are not great for protecting your body against viruses, 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:10.996 you know. Add to that the kind of panic eating 0:05:11.036 --> 0:05:13.036 that we're all doing, of sugar and ice cream and 0:05:13.076 --> 0:05:15.636 these kinds of things. These aren't great for our bodies 0:05:15.676 --> 0:05:18.556 to fight off threats like normal level threats, let alone 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:22.276 the kind of threat that we're facing that's so virulently contagious. 0:05:22.596 --> 0:05:24.436 I'm impressed you still have ice cream left. I had 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:26.636 to empty everything out of everything in essentially out of 0:05:26.636 --> 0:05:29.236 my freezer to put in the vast amounts of protein 0:05:29.276 --> 0:05:32.036 that I need to support two growing deans is the 0:05:32.076 --> 0:05:34.196 plus and minus of living in a huge bunker that 0:05:34.396 --> 0:05:37.156 is normally there to support four hundred students. You know, 0:05:37.356 --> 0:05:39.836 once my college is empty, I'm sitting on freezers of 0:05:39.876 --> 0:05:42.196 you know, thirty pounds of mozzarealistics and so on. So 0:05:42.276 --> 0:05:44.636 I really have to keep the panic eating and check. 0:05:45.476 --> 0:05:48.156 Can I ask you about something that's really been on 0:05:48.236 --> 0:05:50.516 my mind, and you alluded to it earlier when you 0:05:50.556 --> 0:05:53.156 mentioned that we can't do something that gives us a 0:05:53.156 --> 0:05:56.756 great sense of well being, namely to have meaningful human contact. 0:05:57.276 --> 0:06:01.636 I'm concerned that there's like a Corona associated social media paradox. 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:05.316 And the paradox is, on the one hand, as you've 0:06:05.596 --> 0:06:09.876 shown and other people have shown, too much reliance on 0:06:10.396 --> 0:06:14.276 phones and other technologies can actually have an alienating effect 0:06:14.276 --> 0:06:17.916 on our ability to form meaningful social connections. And yet 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:20.636 in this Corona moment, when we say, well, how will 0:06:20.676 --> 0:06:23.796 we maintain social connection, the immediate answer that everyone has is, 0:06:23.916 --> 0:06:27.756 let's use zoom, Let's use FaceTime. Let's transform snapchat from 0:06:27.756 --> 0:06:29.316 something that I'm trying to keep my kids off off 0:06:29.316 --> 0:06:32.236 to something which I'm encouraging them to use in reasonable proportion. 0:06:32.356 --> 0:06:35.636 So is there, in fact some social media paradox in 0:06:35.716 --> 0:06:39.196 this moment? Yeah, I think even I even had some 0:06:39.236 --> 0:06:41.916 folks criticizing me over email because we've just for our 0:06:41.956 --> 0:06:44.476 own Pushkin podcast, the Happiness Lab. We just started a 0:06:44.516 --> 0:06:47.036 Facebook group because people want to connect in this time, 0:06:47.436 --> 0:06:49.316 And people wrote to me saying like, didn't you and 0:06:49.396 --> 0:06:51.436 your course say that Facebook is really bad for us 0:06:51.436 --> 0:06:54.156 and it promotes anxiety and depression, And yes, so I 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:57.196 think there's a paradox there. I think for a long time, 0:06:57.236 --> 0:07:00.836 technology in particular kinds of technology, right using our phone 0:07:00.836 --> 0:07:03.116 to scroll through an Instagram feed rather than picking up 0:07:03.116 --> 0:07:05.716 our phone, and like calling a parent from far away, 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:09.676 we are often using technology in ways that socially limit us, 0:07:09.676 --> 0:07:12.836 that prevent us from connecting with other people. The irony 0:07:12.916 --> 0:07:14.876 is that that is all we have right now. We 0:07:14.956 --> 0:07:17.916 can't physically connect with people and the way we normally would. 0:07:18.236 --> 0:07:21.036 But these technologies are really going to be a lifeline. 0:07:21.316 --> 0:07:22.836 The key is that we have to use them the 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:25.236 right way, and I think most of us haven't built 0:07:25.316 --> 0:07:27.956 up the right muscles for how to use these technologies 0:07:28.196 --> 0:07:31.116 in a positive way to connect with people. So, for example, 0:07:31.156 --> 0:07:33.516 my first instinct when I'm feeling a little anxious is 0:07:33.556 --> 0:07:36.156 to hop on Twitter or to hop on Facebook and 0:07:36.196 --> 0:07:38.676 just kind of scroll through, Like my instinct is like 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:40.516 that will make me feel social. I'll see what other 0:07:40.596 --> 0:07:43.196 people are talking about. But that is having exactly the 0:07:43.316 --> 0:07:46.876 wrong reaction, like I'm not really connecting with people in 0:07:46.956 --> 0:07:49.796 real time, I'm kind of experiencing all their anxiety from 0:07:49.836 --> 0:07:52.356 their posts. A better way to connect with folks would 0:07:52.356 --> 0:07:54.796 be to use things like FaceTime or Zoom, when you 0:07:54.836 --> 0:07:58.156 can see people in real time, see their expressions, talk 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:00.916 with them, see the kinds of things that they're doing. 0:08:01.156 --> 0:08:04.076 Maybe even have shared activities together where we can watch 0:08:04.116 --> 0:08:07.196 Netflix together or cook a meal together. Those things the 0:08:07.276 --> 0:08:10.156 science suggests are ways that technology you really can connect 0:08:10.236 --> 0:08:12.036 us for the most part. I mean, we do lose 0:08:12.076 --> 0:08:14.596 some things by having things on technology, obviously, things like 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:16.916 touch and so on. But for the most part, in 0:08:16.956 --> 0:08:20.156 real life conversation where we are in real time watching 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:23.156 video of what someone's doing, if you have a decent connection, 0:08:23.196 --> 0:08:25.796 that can make you feel incredibly connected. And it's the 0:08:25.796 --> 0:08:27.116 one thing that a lot of us are going to 0:08:27.156 --> 0:08:28.796 rely on. And so I think we need to be 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:32.316 careful about this paradox because some people have this knee 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:34.476 jerk reaction of like, oh, technology is bad, it's going 0:08:34.516 --> 0:08:37.276 to hurt social connection. Given that that's all we have, 0:08:37.596 --> 0:08:39.436 we need to find the best ways to make use 0:08:39.476 --> 0:08:41.756 of it so that we can decrease loneliness in this 0:08:41.916 --> 0:08:46.636 really potentially really lonely time. So then, to summarize, then, 0:08:47.116 --> 0:08:50.076 Professor Santos is less than number one for social media 0:08:50.196 --> 0:08:55.356 is something like talk, don't scroll. Yes, yeah, get as 0:08:55.396 --> 0:08:59.276 close to replicating a real and an irl human connection 0:08:59.556 --> 0:09:02.836 as you can and avoid the scroll, which we know 0:09:02.996 --> 0:09:07.396 is not the most heartening undertaking. That's exactly right, And 0:09:07.516 --> 0:09:09.756 I think I love that you use the word real 0:09:09.836 --> 0:09:12.596 social connection. And it's important to remember what that looks like. 0:09:12.956 --> 0:09:15.956 That doesn't look like a work meeting where we schedule 0:09:15.996 --> 0:09:18.396 it on zoom and we meet exactly at seven pm 0:09:18.396 --> 0:09:20.756 and so on. That looks like I run into somebody 0:09:20.916 --> 0:09:23.356 at the water cooler or I just chat with somebody 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:25.676 at the coffee shop. We need to find ways to 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:29.396 use these technologies in really like low key kinds of 0:09:29.436 --> 0:09:32.996 ways that don't feel so formal. So I I keep 0:09:33.036 --> 0:09:35.836 hearing from friends who are using things like FaceTime to 0:09:35.916 --> 0:09:37.756 kind of make dinner together where you just put it 0:09:37.796 --> 0:09:39.916 on in the background and you're running around chasing after 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:41.836 your kids, and like when you can come to the screen, 0:09:41.876 --> 0:09:45.076 you come to the screen, but it doesn't feel as formal. 0:09:45.716 --> 0:09:48.116 I did this with my college roommates last night, and 0:09:48.116 --> 0:09:50.516 we did a spa night together. So once someone was 0:09:50.556 --> 0:09:52.676 steaming their face, and someone was putting on a mask, 0:09:52.676 --> 0:09:56.036 and someone was just like painting their nails. It's not formal. 0:09:56.116 --> 0:09:58.716 It's kind of low key. That's what we need right now. 0:09:58.756 --> 0:10:01.356 What we're losing is the low key stuff, the kind 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:04.636 of informal ways of running into each other. But again, 0:10:04.676 --> 0:10:07.236 if you kind of do a little scheduling and use 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:12.156 these technologies, we can replicate that mostly well. Any advice 0:10:12.196 --> 0:10:14.316 on how to break the ice in those situations, I mean, 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:17.236 if you're with your college roommates or people you've loved 0:10:17.316 --> 0:10:19.676 for many years, it might be a little easier than 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:21.796 with people who are sort of in the middle ground 0:10:21.796 --> 0:10:24.276 that you know when you like you know. I have 0:10:24.356 --> 0:10:27.356 found that the distance between formal encounter and non formal 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:30.756 encounter in these spaces is actually kind of big, and 0:10:30.796 --> 0:10:33.596 I feel a little awkward even with people or colleagues 0:10:33.596 --> 0:10:35.676 that I might sit down after work and have a 0:10:35.716 --> 0:10:37.476 drink with. One of them said, well, why don't we 0:10:37.476 --> 0:10:40.516 have a drink on you know, on zoom or on FaceTime, 0:10:40.556 --> 0:10:42.916 And I said yes, But I keep on delaying it 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:45.996 because I think I'm worried that it'll be awkward. Yeah, 0:10:46.076 --> 0:10:48.036 I think this is another spot where our minds lie 0:10:48.076 --> 0:10:50.196 to us. I think the startup cost is awkward, you 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:51.836 know what I mean, Like we all have like, oh 0:10:51.956 --> 0:10:53.876 is your a mic on? Like, oh, move your thing, 0:10:53.916 --> 0:10:56.556 I can't see your face. There is that awkward startup cost, 0:10:56.596 --> 0:10:59.036 there's no question, But once you get into it, it's 0:10:59.076 --> 0:11:01.516 actually a lot more pleasant than we expect. I think 0:11:01.556 --> 0:11:03.796 we put in too much emphasis on that startup cost, 0:11:03.836 --> 0:11:06.916 which causes us not to schedule these things. But in practice, 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:09.356 once you do them, I mean, I've had lots of 0:11:09.396 --> 0:11:11.556 different versions of these now because we've been kind of 0:11:11.596 --> 0:11:13.676 stuck in the house for about two and a half 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:16.716 weeks now, and all of them kind of feel like 0:11:16.756 --> 0:11:18.836 they're going to be awkward, but in practice they work 0:11:18.876 --> 0:11:21.276 out pretty well. With one group of friends, we did 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:24.596 games with a roommate of mine from grad school and 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:27.236 like her ex boyfriend slash friend, and he was in 0:11:27.236 --> 0:11:30.116 a different spot and we decided to play celebrity like 0:11:30.156 --> 0:11:32.796 this dumb like party game, and I was like, this 0:11:32.916 --> 0:11:34.756 is just not going to work. And I was again 0:11:34.836 --> 0:11:36.796 kind of dreading it and like putting off doing it. 0:11:36.956 --> 0:11:38.756 But then in practice, once we did it, you know, 0:11:38.876 --> 0:11:40.916 fifteen minutes in we were just playing the game and 0:11:40.956 --> 0:11:43.996 it was fine. So our minds adapt incredibly quickly to 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:47.796 these technologies. We just have to overcome that misconception that 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:49.156 it's not going to be fun or it's just going 0:11:49.236 --> 0:11:52.116 to be too awkward, so it's not worth it. We'll 0:11:52.116 --> 0:12:04.956 be back in just a moment, So okay, next question. 0:12:05.196 --> 0:12:07.476 This has also been very much front of mine for me, 0:12:08.076 --> 0:12:15.476 creation of routine and schedule when stuck at home. Intuitively, 0:12:15.516 --> 0:12:17.396 it seems as though that would be very important, and 0:12:17.436 --> 0:12:20.676 so I lectured my children unwisely before actually talking to 0:12:20.716 --> 0:12:26.076 the psychologist. But is there anything to that routine is essential? 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:28.356 You know, that's not just an old wives tale. I 0:12:28.396 --> 0:12:31.116 think if there's anything we can do to have more 0:12:31.196 --> 0:12:34.316 routine in our life, all the better. And so one 0:12:34.316 --> 0:12:36.596 of the things I've been advising my students about is 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:38.996 to create their own rituals. You know, whatever you used 0:12:38.996 --> 0:12:41.276 to do in the morning before you were stuck in 0:12:41.316 --> 0:12:44.156 your parents' house. Keep doing that right now. If that 0:12:44.276 --> 0:12:46.156 was getting up to go to the gym, you know, 0:12:46.276 --> 0:12:48.756 drag out a towel and do some exercises on the floor, 0:12:48.956 --> 0:12:51.276 if that was getting dressed up to like run off 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:53.236 to your first class and grab a coffee you know, 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:55.716 on your way there at the coffee shop. Find a 0:12:55.756 --> 0:12:59.076 way to replicate that. The more we can feel like 0:12:59.156 --> 0:13:01.876 we have a normal schedule, the better we're going to 0:13:01.916 --> 0:13:04.036 get through this. And part because when you don't have 0:13:04.076 --> 0:13:06.636 a routine, you kind of just feel off. One great 0:13:06.676 --> 0:13:09.516 thing about habits and routines is that they just what 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:11.996 to do without anxiety. You know, I just know that 0:13:12.076 --> 0:13:13.556 when I get up in the morning, you know, I 0:13:13.596 --> 0:13:15.356 hit my yoga mat, and then I take a shower, 0:13:15.396 --> 0:13:17.076 and then I get a coffee, and then I start 0:13:17.156 --> 0:13:20.356 working on podcast stuff. It just is my day. If 0:13:20.396 --> 0:13:23.076 you don't have those routines in place, it can feel 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:24.916 kind of uncertain. You're like, well, what do I do next? 0:13:24.956 --> 0:13:26.436 You know, do I take a shower down? Like what's 0:13:26.476 --> 0:13:29.156 going on? And that a little bit of uncertainty on 0:13:29.156 --> 0:13:31.356 top of all the other anxiety, on top of all 0:13:31.396 --> 0:13:34.116 the other uncertainties, we're facing right now. It does two 0:13:34.116 --> 0:13:36.196 things like it first of all, it just doesn't feel good, 0:13:36.356 --> 0:13:38.036 But second of all, it makes it harder to get 0:13:38.036 --> 0:13:41.156 your tasks done. So imposing some kind of routine, even 0:13:41.196 --> 0:13:43.556 if it's a fake routine, even if it's a new routine, 0:13:43.836 --> 0:13:47.356 I think can be incredibly powerful. And it's especially powerful 0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:50.916 for kids. Right even if you're doing kind of homeschooling. 0:13:50.996 --> 0:13:52.956 Right now, you know, set up like this is the 0:13:53.036 --> 0:13:55.036 reading hour, and now it's the take a break hour, 0:13:55.116 --> 0:13:57.796 and now it's the lunch hour. That can really really 0:13:57.836 --> 0:13:59.916 help kids. And even if you have kids at home 0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:02.276 and you're like the heck with homeschooling, like I'm just 0:14:02.316 --> 0:14:05.396 going to let them watch Netflix, even still have a routine, 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:07.956 like you know, from nine to two is the Netflix time, 0:14:07.996 --> 0:14:09.916 and we take a break at new for lunch, And 0:14:10.356 --> 0:14:12.676 any routine you can kind of impose on yourself is 0:14:12.676 --> 0:14:15.476 going to feel amazing. Well, I'm glad that I've managed 0:14:15.516 --> 0:14:19.436 to get that accidentally right. But my question is actually, 0:14:19.516 --> 0:14:24.316 why why are human beings creatures of scheduling anhabit in 0:14:24.356 --> 0:14:27.196 this way? I mean, just from a purely evolutionary perspective, 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:30.676 doesn't seem super obvious that this would be so optimal 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:33.556 for us, you know, when you know, when out there 0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:35.796 hunting and gathering on the velt, what's so great about 0:14:35.796 --> 0:14:38.916 a routine? Yeah, it just kind of reduces our choice, 0:14:39.036 --> 0:14:41.956 and choice can feel really overloading. Right, So if you 0:14:42.036 --> 0:14:44.076 have to make a choice every morning, like should I 0:14:44.076 --> 0:14:46.836 shower first, should I exercise first? Should I get coffee first? 0:14:47.156 --> 0:14:50.956 Like I check my email? That can feel incredibly paralyzing. 0:14:51.236 --> 0:14:53.356 And so the brain just has a trick to avoid 0:14:53.436 --> 0:14:56.076 those kinds of choices where it just says, hey, if 0:14:56.156 --> 0:14:58.956 you did something yesterday that was rewarding, lay down that 0:14:59.036 --> 0:15:00.756 track in the brain so that you can just do 0:15:00.796 --> 0:15:02.876 that over again without having to make the choice of 0:15:02.916 --> 0:15:05.716 doing it. It means sometimes that we sometimes lay down 0:15:05.716 --> 0:15:08.036 tracks that are rewarding that aren't great for us. You know, 0:15:08.116 --> 0:15:10.476 some of us are now realizing that the habits that 0:15:10.476 --> 0:15:13.036 we have at night, for say, snacking all the time, 0:15:13.876 --> 0:15:15.836 those might not work when you're in your house twenty 0:15:15.836 --> 0:15:18.516 four seven. Right, So sometimes we lay down bad tracks, 0:15:18.756 --> 0:15:21.196 but often we've laid down tracks that are rewarding before, 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:24.716 and it just reduces the choice that allows us to 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:26.716 kind of get on with our day without getting sort 0:15:26.716 --> 0:15:28.916 of stymied by like, well, well, what should come next? 0:15:29.156 --> 0:15:30.876 We kind of just know what comes next because it 0:15:30.876 --> 0:15:33.476 sort of feels natural. We can sort of do things 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:36.556 on autopilot, which, to the extent that they're rewarding it 0:15:36.676 --> 0:15:39.196 kind of works to help us avoid all these choices 0:15:39.236 --> 0:15:42.916 that can feel so so overwhelming it otherwise really overwhelming time. 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:48.236 So routine is one mechanism of reducing anxiety by reducing choices. 0:15:48.596 --> 0:15:51.596 What are some other tools that people can use on 0:15:51.636 --> 0:15:55.716 their own to address anxiety in the current current situation? 0:15:55.756 --> 0:15:58.076 And I think I want to tweak the question to say, 0:15:58.316 --> 0:16:00.676 you know, it's not just the general question of anxiety. 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:04.756 It's anxiety that's in some degree justified. It's not really 0:16:04.796 --> 0:16:07.796 the situation of the patient who comes to you and says, 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:11.516 you know, doctor, I have anxiety and you say what 0:16:11.636 --> 0:16:13.796 about and the person can't even express it. It's it's 0:16:13.876 --> 0:16:16.356 not you know, grounded in reason. Here. If you're not 0:16:16.396 --> 0:16:18.156 a little bit anxious about what's going on in the 0:16:18.196 --> 0:16:21.116 world right now, or the probabilities of getting Corona where 0:16:21.156 --> 0:16:24.156 the launchm economic effects or your job were your four 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:27.396 oh one k, or the well being of your loved ones, 0:16:27.956 --> 0:16:30.316 you're actually not rational like, I mean, some degree of 0:16:30.396 --> 0:16:34.276 rationality here mandates some degree of anxiety. So how do 0:16:34.316 --> 0:16:37.276 you think people should manage that set of issues? Yeah, 0:16:37.276 --> 0:16:38.996 I mean, I think one way to frame it is 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:42.196 that emotions are tools, right in some sense, is the 0:16:42.196 --> 0:16:44.196 best way to think about them. They're there for a reason, 0:16:44.436 --> 0:16:46.276 and as you said, there's a reason we're supposed to 0:16:46.276 --> 0:16:48.796 feel anxious in this situation. We can't be going out 0:16:48.796 --> 0:16:51.116 and being social. It's an incredible risk, right. We have 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:53.476 to have some degree of anxiety if we're going to 0:16:53.516 --> 0:16:55.276 flatten the curve, if we're going to do what we 0:16:55.356 --> 0:16:57.796 need to personally do to protect ourselves in our family. 0:16:58.396 --> 0:17:02.036 That said, being so anxious that you're not sleeping, being 0:17:02.076 --> 0:17:05.116 so anxious that you can't work if your job demands 0:17:05.116 --> 0:17:08.356 you working from home. This doesn't feel good, and it's 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:11.316 ultimately not a great way to deal with the problem. Again, 0:17:11.356 --> 0:17:14.556 because kind of spiking your sympathetic nervous system is not 0:17:14.676 --> 0:17:16.836 great for your immune function. That's not going to be 0:17:17.116 --> 0:17:19.076 an awesome thing that you're doing to your body to 0:17:19.156 --> 0:17:22.716 help it fight incoming viruses, And it just feels really yucky. 0:17:23.036 --> 0:17:24.956 And so I think it's not a matter of getting 0:17:25.036 --> 0:17:28.116 rid of anxiety completely or kind of polyannishly pretending that 0:17:28.156 --> 0:17:32.836 everything's fine. It's just using your anxiety wisely. And I 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:35.316 think that differs for different people. I mean, I know 0:17:35.436 --> 0:17:37.636 I can just speak for myself. I can feel when 0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:40.836 I've been on social media a little bit too long, 0:17:40.876 --> 0:17:43.876 when I've been kind of panic scrolling, when I'm learning 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:47.836 information that's not helping me, it's just making me incredibly 0:17:47.876 --> 0:17:50.476 more anxious. Right. I think everyone needs to know the 0:17:50.516 --> 0:17:52.356 symptoms of this virus. You know, they need to be 0:17:52.396 --> 0:17:54.756 thinking about kind of planning for how they're going to 0:17:55.156 --> 0:17:57.756 get food and you know, keep their family safe. But 0:17:57.836 --> 0:18:01.036 if you're on article number seven hundred that says, you know, 0:18:01.076 --> 0:18:03.836 look for cough and shortness of breath and fever, that's 0:18:03.916 --> 0:18:06.836 not helping anymore. You have to watch for yourself what 0:18:06.916 --> 0:18:09.036 it's doing to your emotions, what it's doing to your 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:12.356 sleep scheduled, what it's doing to your kid's anxiety. I 0:18:12.396 --> 0:18:14.956 have lots of folks with young kids who are reporting 0:18:14.996 --> 0:18:17.236 to me that they're watching their kids pick up on 0:18:17.316 --> 0:18:20.316 their own anxious scrolling and so on and so. In 0:18:20.396 --> 0:18:21.756 terms of what to do, I think part of it 0:18:21.796 --> 0:18:24.796 is just recognizing it. It's noticing like, huh, I've kind 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:27.636 of thrown my body into a tizzy reading that last 0:18:27.716 --> 0:18:30.196 article about you know how twenty year olds can catch 0:18:30.276 --> 0:18:33.076 this like useful information. But I didn't need to spike 0:18:33.156 --> 0:18:36.076 myself that badly. And then I think you're feeling that, 0:18:36.396 --> 0:18:38.756 know what your own go too's are to feel a 0:18:38.796 --> 0:18:40.756 little bit better. For some of us, that can start 0:18:40.796 --> 0:18:44.036 with just taking a really conscious breath. For me personally, 0:18:44.036 --> 0:18:46.196 I know that when I'm getting anxious, I can just 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:48.996 kind of watch my chest muscles tightening. I can feel 0:18:49.076 --> 0:18:52.076 that I'm really taking these really shallow breaths. And for 0:18:52.156 --> 0:18:54.596 sometimes in those cases, I just force myself to be like, 0:18:54.676 --> 0:18:57.276 all right, I'm gonna do just like three deep breaths. 0:18:57.276 --> 0:18:59.236 And just the act of doing that has a real 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:02.716 physiological effect. What you're doing is you're kind of putting 0:19:02.716 --> 0:19:05.516 the brakes on your sympathetic nervous system and turning on 0:19:05.636 --> 0:19:09.516 your parasympathetic nervous system, which, if the sympathetic nerves system 0:19:09.596 --> 0:19:12.196 is sort of the fight or flight, the parasympathetic is 0:19:12.276 --> 0:19:14.756 kind of the rest and digest. You know, It's the 0:19:14.796 --> 0:19:17.516 thing that can allow you to do your normal bodily functions. 0:19:17.516 --> 0:19:19.796 So your body can kind of go through its normal day, 0:19:20.276 --> 0:19:23.036 but it needs a little help. And deep belly breathing, 0:19:23.116 --> 0:19:25.396 which is just kind of taking deep breaths where you're 0:19:25.476 --> 0:19:28.156 breathing lower in your belly rather than in your chest. 0:19:28.596 --> 0:19:31.516 That can kind of help making sure you're taking deeper 0:19:31.556 --> 0:19:34.076 breaths so you're not kind of in the kind of 0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:36.436