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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explore the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Felt. Every week we try to give you

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Speaker 1: the story behind the stories, but in this episode it's

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Speaker 1: a little bit different. We're going to explore how we

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Speaker 1: feel about the news, or specifically, how we feel about coronavirus.

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Speaker 1: In this strange moment where the epidemic is dominating our headlines,

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Speaker 1: it's even more important than ever to pay attention to

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Speaker 1: our emotions, to our well being, and to how those

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Speaker 1: things relate to the stories we read in the news.

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Speaker 1: Life as we know it is turned upside down. Schools

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Speaker 1: are closed, offices are closed, long lines at supermarkets. It's

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Speaker 1: very easy to feel anxious, it's very easy to feel hopeless.

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Speaker 1: But Laurie Santos has some good tips for how to cope,

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Speaker 1: or she would probably put it how to regulate herself.

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Speaker 1: She's a professor of psychology at Yale University, where one

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Speaker 1: of her classes, called Psychology and the Good Life, has

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Speaker 1: become the most popular class in the history of Yale

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Speaker 1: University and has attracted five hundred thousand students on a Coruserah,

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Speaker 1: you heard that right, Pushkin Fans may also know Laurie

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Speaker 1: as the host of The Happiness Lab, her podcast where

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Speaker 1: she uses scientific research to talk about how to achieve

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Speaker 1: and maintain happiness and well being in life. Needless to

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Speaker 1: say it, Laurie is more than qualified to help us

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Speaker 1: deal with coronavirus anxiety. She is, in fact, the one

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Speaker 1: go to expert that you can think of. Laurie, Let's

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Speaker 1: just start with your own personal experience and what you're

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Speaker 1: doing to stay happy. You're in charge of a college

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Speaker 1: of three hundred or four hundred undergraduates who are all

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Speaker 1: have all flown the coup, So you have a very large,

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Speaker 1: very empty nest. How are you handling it? It's been

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Speaker 1: surreal and really sad. Honestly, Yale had this very incredible

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Speaker 1: situation where as Corona is emerging as this awful threat,

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Speaker 1: was while our students were on spring break, and so

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Speaker 1: Yale made the really hard decision to kick students off

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Speaker 1: campus when they are all off on spring break wherever

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Speaker 1: they were. You know. So we had students who were

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Speaker 1: in cancoon with a small backpack and things, and they're told, hey,

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Speaker 1: don't come back. You know, we'll figure out a way

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Speaker 1: to get your textbooks and your laptops and all that

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Speaker 1: stuff back to you. And so for our students, it

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Speaker 1: was really frantic, right because they didn't even get to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to their friends or pack up their stuff.

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Speaker 1: Many of them don't know when they're getting their stuff

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Speaker 1: because we can't let them on campus. And so managing

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Speaker 1: that anxiety for four hundred other students at the same

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Speaker 1: time as I'm managing my own anxiety, and I'm sad

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Speaker 1: I don't get to say goodbye to these students, and

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Speaker 1: I'm uncertain about what's going to happen next and how

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Speaker 1: long it's going to take. So it's been it's been

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Speaker 1: a lot, both processing it myself and seeing it through

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Speaker 1: the student's eyes. You sound very much, unsurprisingly in touch

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Speaker 1: with what you're feeling, which is excellent for the us.

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Speaker 1: It may not always be so simple to access our

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Speaker 1: full set of feelings. How important is it in your

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Speaker 1: view for us to try to be more or less

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Speaker 1: aware of or conscious of the strange different emotions that

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Speaker 1: are coursing through all of us still right now? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely essential, if for the only reason

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Speaker 1: that the only way we're going to make it through

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Speaker 1: this crisis. Is to make sure our immune systems are

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Speaker 1: functioning at their absolutely optimal level to protect us against

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Speaker 1: this physical health threat. And I think that means that

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Speaker 1: we need to take the mental health threat of this

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Speaker 1: crisis really seriously, Like we're plunging people into social distancing,

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Speaker 1: basically not letting them do the one thing that they

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Speaker 1: really want to do at this time in their life,

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Speaker 1: to feel connected and close with other people, you know,

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Speaker 1: hug their mom. We basically can't do that anymore. I

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Speaker 1: think we know that just the anxiety and uncertainty of

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Speaker 1: the situation is the kind of thing that can lead

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Speaker 1: people to say, have things like panic attacks and so on.

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Speaker 1: One of the most awful things is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: a main symptom of coronavirus is you have the shortness

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Speaker 1: of breath. That's also the main symptom of feeling anxious, right,

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Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of us are even

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Speaker 1: seeing these phantom symptoms and wondering do I have it?

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Speaker 1: Am I really shorter breath? What am I feeling? And

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Speaker 1: so I think getting through this crisis successfully is going

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Speaker 1: to require a lot. It's going to require figuring out

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Speaker 1: political infrastructure, of figuring out medical infrastructure, But I think

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Speaker 1: it's also going to involve all of us individually doing

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Speaker 1: everything we can to make sure we're flourishing as much

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Speaker 1: as we can to keep ourselves sane and physically healthy.

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Speaker 1: Were you hinting, as I thought maybe you were, that

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Speaker 1: there might actually be some clinical connection between mental well

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Speaker 1: being and a well functioning immune system. Oh, there's so

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Speaker 1: much evidence that immune function really requires not having stress

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Speaker 1: and so on. So we know, for example, that really

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Speaker 1: upping your sympathetic nervous system function can affect immune functioning too. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I think allowing yourself to be incredibly stressed out,

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Speaker 1: allowing yourself not to sleep that much, both of those

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Speaker 1: things are not great for protecting your body against viruses,

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Speaker 1: you know. Add to that the kind of panic eating

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Speaker 1: that we're all doing, of sugar and ice cream and

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Speaker 1: these kinds of things. These aren't great for our bodies

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Speaker 1: to fight off threats like normal level threats, let alone

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Speaker 1: the kind of threat that we're facing that's so virulently contagious.

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Speaker 1: I'm impressed you still have ice cream left. I had

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Speaker 1: to empty everything out of everything in essentially out of

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Speaker 1: my freezer to put in the vast amounts of protein

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Speaker 1: that I need to support two growing deans is the

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Speaker 1: plus and minus of living in a huge bunker that

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Speaker 1: is normally there to support four hundred students. You know,

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Speaker 1: once my college is empty, I'm sitting on freezers of

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Speaker 1: you know, thirty pounds of mozzarealistics and so on. So

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Speaker 1: I really have to keep the panic eating and check.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask you about something that's really been on

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Speaker 1: my mind, and you alluded to it earlier when you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that we can't do something that gives us a

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Speaker 1: great sense of well being, namely to have meaningful human contact.

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned that there's like a Corona associated social media paradox.

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Speaker 1: And the paradox is, on the one hand, as you've

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Speaker 1: shown and other people have shown, too much reliance on

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Speaker 1: phones and other technologies can actually have an alienating effect

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Speaker 1: on our ability to form meaningful social connections. And yet

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Speaker 1: in this Corona moment, when we say, well, how will

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Speaker 1: we maintain social connection, the immediate answer that everyone has is,

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Speaker 1: let's use zoom, Let's use FaceTime. Let's transform snapchat from

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Speaker 1: something that I'm trying to keep my kids off off

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Speaker 1: to something which I'm encouraging them to use in reasonable proportion.

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Speaker 1: So is there, in fact some social media paradox in

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Speaker 1: this moment? Yeah, I think even I even had some

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Speaker 1: folks criticizing me over email because we've just for our

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Speaker 1: own Pushkin podcast, the Happiness Lab. We just started a

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Speaker 1: Facebook group because people want to connect in this time,

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Speaker 1: And people wrote to me saying like, didn't you and

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Speaker 1: your course say that Facebook is really bad for us

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Speaker 1: and it promotes anxiety and depression, And yes, so I

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Speaker 1: think there's a paradox there. I think for a long time,

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Speaker 1: technology in particular kinds of technology, right using our phone

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Speaker 1: to scroll through an Instagram feed rather than picking up

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Speaker 1: our phone, and like calling a parent from far away,

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Speaker 1: we are often using technology in ways that socially limit us,

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Speaker 1: that prevent us from connecting with other people. The irony

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Speaker 1: is that that is all we have right now. We

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Speaker 1: can't physically connect with people and the way we normally would.

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Speaker 1: But these technologies are really going to be a lifeline.

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Speaker 1: The key is that we have to use them the

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Speaker 1: right way, and I think most of us haven't built

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Speaker 1: up the right muscles for how to use these technologies

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Speaker 1: in a positive way to connect with people. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: my first instinct when I'm feeling a little anxious is

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Speaker 1: to hop on Twitter or to hop on Facebook and

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Speaker 1: just kind of scroll through, Like my instinct is like

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Speaker 1: that will make me feel social. I'll see what other

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Speaker 1: people are talking about. But that is having exactly the

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Speaker 1: wrong reaction, like I'm not really connecting with people in

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Speaker 1: real time, I'm kind of experiencing all their anxiety from

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Speaker 1: their posts. A better way to connect with folks would

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Speaker 1: be to use things like FaceTime or Zoom, when you

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Speaker 1: can see people in real time, see their expressions, talk

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Speaker 1: with them, see the kinds of things that they're doing.

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Speaker 1: Maybe even have shared activities together where we can watch

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Speaker 1: Netflix together or cook a meal together. Those things the

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Speaker 1: science suggests are ways that technology you really can connect

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Speaker 1: us for the most part. I mean, we do lose

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Speaker 1: some things by having things on technology, obviously, things like

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Speaker 1: touch and so on. But for the most part, in

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Speaker 1: real life conversation where we are in real time watching

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Speaker 1: video of what someone's doing, if you have a decent connection,

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Speaker 1: that can make you feel incredibly connected. And it's the

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Speaker 1: one thing that a lot of us are going to

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Speaker 1: rely on. And so I think we need to be

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Speaker 1: careful about this paradox because some people have this knee

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Speaker 1: jerk reaction of like, oh, technology is bad, it's going

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Speaker 1: to hurt social connection. Given that that's all we have,

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Speaker 1: we need to find the best ways to make use

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Speaker 1: of it so that we can decrease loneliness in this

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Speaker 1: really potentially really lonely time. So then, to summarize, then,

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Speaker 1: Professor Santos is less than number one for social media

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Speaker 1: is something like talk, don't scroll. Yes, yeah, get as

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Speaker 1: close to replicating a real and an irl human connection

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Speaker 1: as you can and avoid the scroll, which we know

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Speaker 1: is not the most heartening undertaking. That's exactly right, And

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Speaker 1: I think I love that you use the word real

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Speaker 1: social connection. And it's important to remember what that looks like.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't look like a work meeting where we schedule

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Speaker 1: it on zoom and we meet exactly at seven pm

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Speaker 1: and so on. That looks like I run into somebody

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Speaker 1: at the water cooler or I just chat with somebody

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Speaker 1: at the coffee shop. We need to find ways to

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Speaker 1: use these technologies in really like low key kinds of

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Speaker 1: ways that don't feel so formal. So I I keep

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Speaker 1: hearing from friends who are using things like FaceTime to

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Speaker 1: kind of make dinner together where you just put it

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Speaker 1: on in the background and you're running around chasing after

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Speaker 1: your kids, and like when you can come to the screen,

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Speaker 1: you come to the screen, but it doesn't feel as formal.

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Speaker 1: I did this with my college roommates last night, and

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Speaker 1: we did a spa night together. So once someone was

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Speaker 1: steaming their face, and someone was putting on a mask,

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Speaker 1: and someone was just like painting their nails. It's not formal.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of low key. That's what we need right now.

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Speaker 1: What we're losing is the low key stuff, the kind

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Speaker 1: of informal ways of running into each other. But again,

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Speaker 1: if you kind of do a little scheduling and use

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Speaker 1: these technologies, we can replicate that mostly well. Any advice

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Speaker 1: on how to break the ice in those situations, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're with your college roommates or people you've loved

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Speaker 1: for many years, it might be a little easier than

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Speaker 1: with people who are sort of in the middle ground

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Speaker 1: that you know when you like you know. I have

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Speaker 1: found that the distance between formal encounter and non formal

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Speaker 1: encounter in these spaces is actually kind of big, and

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Speaker 1: I feel a little awkward even with people or colleagues

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Speaker 1: that I might sit down after work and have a

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Speaker 1: drink with. One of them said, well, why don't we

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Speaker 1: have a drink on you know, on zoom or on FaceTime,

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Speaker 1: And I said yes, But I keep on delaying it

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Speaker 1: because I think I'm worried that it'll be awkward. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think this is another spot where our minds lie

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Speaker 1: to us. I think the startup cost is awkward, you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like we all have like, oh

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Speaker 1: is your a mic on? Like, oh, move your thing,

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Speaker 1: I can't see your face. There is that awkward startup cost,

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Speaker 1: there's no question, But once you get into it, it's

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Speaker 1: actually a lot more pleasant than we expect. I think

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Speaker 1: we put in too much emphasis on that startup cost,

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Speaker 1: which causes us not to schedule these things. But in practice,

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Speaker 1: once you do them, I mean, I've had lots of

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Speaker 1: different versions of these now because we've been kind of

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Speaker 1: stuck in the house for about two and a half

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Speaker 1: weeks now, and all of them kind of feel like

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Speaker 1: they're going to be awkward, but in practice they work

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Speaker 1: out pretty well. With one group of friends, we did

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Speaker 1: games with a roommate of mine from grad school and

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Speaker 1: like her ex boyfriend slash friend, and he was in

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Speaker 1: a different spot and we decided to play celebrity like

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Speaker 1: this dumb like party game, and I was like, this

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Speaker 1: is just not going to work. And I was again

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Speaker 1: kind of dreading it and like putting off doing it.

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Speaker 1: But then in practice, once we did it, you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen minutes in we were just playing the game and

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Speaker 1: it was fine. So our minds adapt incredibly quickly to

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Speaker 1: these technologies. We just have to overcome that misconception that

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be fun or it's just going

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Speaker 1: to be too awkward, so it's not worth it. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back in just a moment, So okay, next question.

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Speaker 1: This has also been very much front of mine for me,

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Speaker 1: creation of routine and schedule when stuck at home. Intuitively,

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Speaker 1: it seems as though that would be very important, and

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Speaker 1: so I lectured my children unwisely before actually talking to

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Speaker 1: the psychologist. But is there anything to that routine is essential?

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Speaker 1: You know, that's not just an old wives tale. I

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Speaker 1: think if there's anything we can do to have more

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Speaker 1: routine in our life, all the better. And so one

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Speaker 1: of the things I've been advising my students about is

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Speaker 1: to create their own rituals. You know, whatever you used

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Speaker 1: to do in the morning before you were stuck in

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Speaker 1: your parents' house. Keep doing that right now. If that

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Speaker 1: was getting up to go to the gym, you know,

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Speaker 1: drag out a towel and do some exercises on the floor,

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Speaker 1: if that was getting dressed up to like run off

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Speaker 1: to your first class and grab a coffee you know,

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Speaker 1: on your way there at the coffee shop. Find a

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Speaker 1: way to replicate that. The more we can feel like

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Speaker 1: we have a normal schedule, the better we're going to

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Speaker 1: get through this. And part because when you don't have

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Speaker 1: a routine, you kind of just feel off. One great

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Speaker 1: thing about habits and routines is that they just what

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Speaker 1: to do without anxiety. You know, I just know that

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Speaker 1: when I get up in the morning, you know, I

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Speaker 1: hit my yoga mat, and then I take a shower,

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Speaker 1: and then I get a coffee, and then I start

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Speaker 1: working on podcast stuff. It just is my day. If

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Speaker 1: you don't have those routines in place, it can feel

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Speaker 1: kind of uncertain. You're like, well, what do I do next?

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Speaker 1: You know, do I take a shower down? Like what's

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Speaker 1: going on? And that a little bit of uncertainty on

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Speaker 1: top of all the other anxiety, on top of all

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Speaker 1: the other uncertainties, we're facing right now. It does two

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Speaker 1: things like it first of all, it just doesn't feel good,

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Speaker 1: But second of all, it makes it harder to get

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Speaker 1: your tasks done. So imposing some kind of routine, even

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Speaker 1: if it's a fake routine, even if it's a new routine,

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Speaker 1: I think can be incredibly powerful. And it's especially powerful

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Speaker 1: for kids. Right even if you're doing kind of homeschooling.

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Speaker 1: Right now, you know, set up like this is the

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Speaker 1: reading hour, and now it's the take a break hour,

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Speaker 1: and now it's the lunch hour. That can really really

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Speaker 1: help kids. And even if you have kids at home

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Speaker 1: and you're like the heck with homeschooling, like I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to let them watch Netflix, even still have a routine,

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Speaker 1: like you know, from nine to two is the Netflix time,

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Speaker 1: and we take a break at new for lunch, And

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Speaker 1: any routine you can kind of impose on yourself is

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Speaker 1: going to feel amazing. Well, I'm glad that I've managed

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Speaker 1: to get that accidentally right. But my question is actually,

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Speaker 1: why why are human beings creatures of scheduling anhabit in

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Speaker 1: this way? I mean, just from a purely evolutionary perspective,

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem super obvious that this would be so optimal

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Speaker 1: for us, you know, when you know, when out there

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Speaker 1: hunting and gathering on the velt, what's so great about

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Speaker 1: a routine? Yeah, it just kind of reduces our choice,

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Speaker 1: and choice can feel really overloading. Right, So if you

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Speaker 1: have to make a choice every morning, like should I

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Speaker 1: shower first, should I exercise first? Should I get coffee first?

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Speaker 1: Like I check my email? That can feel incredibly paralyzing.

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Speaker 1: And so the brain just has a trick to avoid

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Speaker 1: those kinds of choices where it just says, hey, if

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Speaker 1: you did something yesterday that was rewarding, lay down that

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Speaker 1: track in the brain so that you can just do

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Speaker 1: that over again without having to make the choice of

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Speaker 1: doing it. It means sometimes that we sometimes lay down

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Speaker 1: tracks that are rewarding that aren't great for us. You know,

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Speaker 1: some of us are now realizing that the habits that

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Speaker 1: we have at night, for say, snacking all the time,

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Speaker 1: those might not work when you're in your house twenty

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Speaker 1: four seven. Right, So sometimes we lay down bad tracks,

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Speaker 1: but often we've laid down tracks that are rewarding before,

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Speaker 1: and it just reduces the choice that allows us to

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Speaker 1: kind of get on with our day without getting sort

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Speaker 1: of stymied by like, well, well, what should come next?

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Speaker 1: We kind of just know what comes next because it

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Speaker 1: sort of feels natural. We can sort of do things

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Speaker 1: on autopilot, which, to the extent that they're rewarding it

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Speaker 1: kind of works to help us avoid all these choices

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Speaker 1: that can feel so so overwhelming it otherwise really overwhelming time.

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Speaker 1: So routine is one mechanism of reducing anxiety by reducing choices.

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Speaker 1: What are some other tools that people can use on

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Speaker 1: their own to address anxiety in the current current situation?

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Speaker 1: And I think I want to tweak the question to say,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's not just the general question of anxiety.

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Speaker 1: It's anxiety that's in some degree justified. It's not really

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Speaker 1: the situation of the patient who comes to you and says,

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Speaker 1: you know, doctor, I have anxiety and you say what

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Speaker 1: about and the person can't even express it. It's it's

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Speaker 1: not you know, grounded in reason. Here. If you're not

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Speaker 1: a little bit anxious about what's going on in the

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Speaker 1: world right now, or the probabilities of getting Corona where

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Speaker 1: the launchm economic effects or your job were your four

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Speaker 1: oh one k, or the well being of your loved ones,

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Speaker 1: you're actually not rational like, I mean, some degree of

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Speaker 1: rationality here mandates some degree of anxiety. So how do

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Speaker 1: you think people should manage that set of issues? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think one way to frame it is

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Speaker 1: that emotions are tools, right in some sense, is the

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Speaker 1: best way to think about them. They're there for a reason,

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Speaker 1: and as you said, there's a reason we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: feel anxious in this situation. We can't be going out

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Speaker 1: and being social. It's an incredible risk, right. We have

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Speaker 1: to have some degree of anxiety if we're going to

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Speaker 1: flatten the curve, if we're going to do what we

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Speaker 1: need to personally do to protect ourselves in our family.

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Speaker 1: That said, being so anxious that you're not sleeping, being

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Speaker 1: so anxious that you can't work if your job demands

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Speaker 1: you working from home. This doesn't feel good, and it's

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Speaker 1: ultimately not a great way to deal with the problem. Again,

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Speaker 1: because kind of spiking your sympathetic nervous system is not

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Speaker 1: great for your immune function. That's not going to be

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Speaker 1: an awesome thing that you're doing to your body to

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Speaker 1: help it fight incoming viruses, And it just feels really yucky.

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Speaker 1: And so I think it's not a matter of getting

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Speaker 1: rid of anxiety completely or kind of polyannishly pretending that

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Speaker 1: everything's fine. It's just using your anxiety wisely. And I

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Speaker 1: think that differs for different people. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: I can just speak for myself. I can feel when

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Speaker 1: I've been on social media a little bit too long,

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Speaker 1: when I've been kind of panic scrolling, when I'm learning

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Speaker 1: information that's not helping me, it's just making me incredibly

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Speaker 1: more anxious. Right. I think everyone needs to know the

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Speaker 1: symptoms of this virus. You know, they need to be

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Speaker 1: thinking about kind of planning for how they're going to

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Speaker 1: get food and you know, keep their family safe. But

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Speaker 1: if you're on article number seven hundred that says, you know,

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Speaker 1: look for cough and shortness of breath and fever, that's

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Speaker 1: not helping anymore. You have to watch for yourself what

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Speaker 1: it's doing to your emotions, what it's doing to your

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Speaker 1: sleep scheduled, what it's doing to your kid's anxiety. I

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Speaker 1: have lots of folks with young kids who are reporting

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Speaker 1: to me that they're watching their kids pick up on

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Speaker 1: their own anxious scrolling and so on and so. In

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Speaker 1: terms of what to do, I think part of it

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Speaker 1: is just recognizing it. It's noticing like, huh, I've kind

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Speaker 1: of thrown my body into a tizzy reading that last

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Speaker 1: article about you know how twenty year olds can catch

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00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:33,076
Speaker 1: this like useful information. But I didn't need to spike

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Speaker 1: myself that badly. And then I think you're feeling that,

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Speaker 1: know what your own go too's are to feel a

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Speaker 1: little bit better. For some of us, that can start

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Speaker 1: with just taking a really conscious breath. For me personally,

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Speaker 1: I know that when I'm getting anxious, I can just

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Speaker 1: kind of watch my chest muscles tightening. I can feel

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Speaker 1: that I'm really taking these really shallow breaths. And for

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Speaker 1: sometimes in those cases, I just force myself to be like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'm gonna do just like three deep breaths.

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Speaker 1: And just the act of doing that has a real

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Speaker 1: physiological effect. What you're doing is you're kind of putting

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Speaker 1: the brakes on your sympathetic nervous system and turning on

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Speaker 1: your parasympathetic nervous system, which, if the sympathetic nerves system

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Speaker 1: is sort of the fight or flight, the parasympathetic is

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Speaker 1: kind of the rest and digest. You know, It's the

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Speaker 1: thing that can allow you to do your normal bodily functions.

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Speaker 1: So your body can kind of go through its normal day,

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00:19:20,276 --> 00:19:23,036
Speaker 1: but it needs a little help. And deep belly breathing,

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00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:25,396
Speaker 1: which is just kind of taking deep breaths where you're

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Speaker 1: breathing lower in your belly rather than in your chest.

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Speaker 1: That can kind of help making sure you're taking deeper

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Speaker 1: breaths so you're not kind of in the kind of

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00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:36,436
Speaker 1: mode where we breathe or kind of having a panic attack.

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Speaker 1: Those things sound so simple, but they can be incredibly powerful.

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Speaker 1: The second thing I would suggest is to find ways

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Speaker 1: to distract yourself. That is hard right now, and even

405
00:19:47,076 --> 00:19:50,396
Speaker 1: our best podcasts are running their coronavirus episodes. I know

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00:19:50,476 --> 00:19:52,836
Speaker 1: we're contributing to the problem even as we speak, Even

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00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:54,476
Speaker 1: if we are telling people how to calm down, don't

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Speaker 1: listen to us, we are making it worse. And I

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Speaker 1: you know, I can feel that too. And it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I go on my social media, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I wish it was just cat video as people like

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Speaker 1: what happened to my normal Reddit feed of like silly

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Speaker 1: animal stuff. You know, but you know that stuff is

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00:20:07,316 --> 00:20:10,236
Speaker 1: still out there. You know there are funny Netflix movies

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00:20:10,276 --> 00:20:12,516
Speaker 1: you can watch and so on, and laughter is a

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Speaker 1: real anxiety reducer and is also thought to be something

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Speaker 1: that can potentially bump up immune function by kind of

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Speaker 1: letting the parasympath nervous system kind of take its action

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Speaker 1: and sort of shut off the fight or flight, even

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00:20:24,596 --> 00:20:27,236
Speaker 1: for a little while, it can be powerful. So what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing, I think is two different approaches. One is,

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Speaker 1: notice what stimuli are making you respond anxiously, and maybe

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Speaker 1: don't subject yourself to those stimuli and constant subjection, yeah

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00:20:40,116 --> 00:20:42,156
Speaker 1: or no when you're doing it right. I mean, what

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Speaker 1: I've found is that for me, it's the specific, awful

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Speaker 1: stories of coronavirus hurting someone. If I was one of

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00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:53,636
Speaker 1: these folks who was not sheltering in place, and I

428
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Speaker 1: was thinking about, well, maybe I'll go out to a

429
00:20:55,516 --> 00:20:57,996
Speaker 1: bar right now, maybe I need a little bit of anxiety.

430
00:20:57,996 --> 00:21:00,356
Speaker 1: Maybe I need to read that story. But me right now,

431
00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,716
Speaker 1: who's been sheltering in place for two weeks, who already

432
00:21:02,716 --> 00:21:05,716
Speaker 1: knows the symptoms and is already worried, I didn't need

433
00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:08,636
Speaker 1: that story right now, Or I definitely didn't need it

434
00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:10,236
Speaker 1: right before where I was about to go to bed,

435
00:21:10,396 --> 00:21:12,636
Speaker 1: and now my adrenaline is spiked and I can't sleep.

436
00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:16,996
Speaker 1: So I think curating your own media around this can

437
00:21:17,076 --> 00:21:21,236
Speaker 1: be incredibly useful and powerful, and that doesn't necessarily mean

438
00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:24,196
Speaker 1: not paying attention to what's going on. I think you

439
00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:27,996
Speaker 1: can be an incredibly informed citizen but still curate what

440
00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:31,516
Speaker 1: you're reading, when you're reading it, how much you're reading.

441
00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:34,796
Speaker 1: All of these things are conscious strategies you can control

442
00:21:34,836 --> 00:21:36,596
Speaker 1: to feel a little bit better, or to kind of

443
00:21:36,636 --> 00:21:39,116
Speaker 1: allow yourself to spike the anxiety when you need to.

444
00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:42,596
Speaker 1: That's incredibly fascinating you everything you just said, and I'll

445
00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:45,196
Speaker 1: just say why. So, you know, going back I think

446
00:21:45,316 --> 00:21:49,636
Speaker 1: roughly to the Reagan years, it became increasingly common for politicians.

447
00:21:49,716 --> 00:21:52,196
Speaker 1: I think Reagan was the greatest genius of this, not

448
00:21:52,316 --> 00:21:54,956
Speaker 1: to speak in terms of general policies and their overall

449
00:21:54,996 --> 00:21:59,516
Speaker 1: statistical public effects, but rather to use anecdotal examples of individuals.

450
00:21:59,556 --> 00:22:00,716
Speaker 1: You know, this is sort of like the State of

451
00:22:00,716 --> 00:22:02,636
Speaker 1: the Union and phenomenon, where the present says, you know,

452
00:22:02,996 --> 00:22:06,316
Speaker 1: there's a nurse in Texas who did this, then it

453
00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:07,756
Speaker 1: moves to the one where we bring that person to

454
00:22:07,756 --> 00:22:10,356
Speaker 1: the State of the Union. And basically the idea was

455
00:22:10,436 --> 00:22:15,756
Speaker 1: that people don't necessarily have powerful responses to this policy

456
00:22:15,876 --> 00:22:20,076
Speaker 1: has raised employment by twelve percent they respond to, you know,

457
00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:23,396
Speaker 1: to anecdote, to human story. What you're saying, in a

458
00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:27,196
Speaker 1: sense is that can be too effective, and so sometimes

459
00:22:27,236 --> 00:22:30,556
Speaker 1: if you're aware about yourself, that you'll be too empathetic,

460
00:22:30,596 --> 00:22:33,836
Speaker 1: so empathetic that will actually affect you, maybe step aside

461
00:22:33,876 --> 00:22:35,876
Speaker 1: from the anecdote. And I noticed that I'm fascinated by

462
00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:37,636
Speaker 1: this because I noticed myself doing it all the time.

463
00:22:37,756 --> 00:22:39,396
Speaker 1: I mean, I triage reading the paper. I see a

464
00:22:39,476 --> 00:22:41,916
Speaker 1: human interest story about this, I pass it right over.

465
00:22:42,316 --> 00:22:44,876
Speaker 1: I see a story about you know, the statistics. I

466
00:22:44,916 --> 00:22:47,556
Speaker 1: look at the statistics because somehow, you know, I'm not

467
00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:50,596
Speaker 1: sufficiently empathetic to have that kind of reaction just to

468
00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:54,236
Speaker 1: the statistics alone. Yeah, and nurse science suggests no one

469
00:22:54,356 --> 00:22:57,236
Speaker 1: is right. You know, psychologists talk about this so called

470
00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:00,236
Speaker 1: identifiable victim effect. You know, if I tell you, you know,

471
00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:03,396
Speaker 1: five hundred thousand people you know died today of you know,

472
00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:07,076
Speaker 1: this earthquake or coronavirus or something that doesn't affect as

473
00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:10,236
Speaker 1: much as Jill, this one person who is thirty four

474
00:23:10,316 --> 00:23:12,956
Speaker 1: years old and worked as a nurse. Like, what happens

475
00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:15,276
Speaker 1: in urs scientifically is we have regions of the brain

476
00:23:15,436 --> 00:23:18,516
Speaker 1: that process information about what other people are thinking and

477
00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:20,876
Speaker 1: what they believe and what's happening to them. We have

478
00:23:20,956 --> 00:23:24,596
Speaker 1: regions of the brain that respond to individual people. Evolutionarily,

479
00:23:24,636 --> 00:23:26,596
Speaker 1: we didn't build in regions of the brain that respond

480
00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,476
Speaker 1: to statistics. And so the things that spike our fear

481
00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:32,396
Speaker 1: is seeing someone else get hurt, not the statistics of

482
00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:35,196
Speaker 1: someone getting her The thing that spikes our anxiety, that

483
00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:38,076
Speaker 1: spikes our empathy, that spikes our compassion is seeing you

484
00:23:38,116 --> 00:23:40,796
Speaker 1: know that this one woman can't get her groceries this

485
00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:43,796
Speaker 1: week because she's so scared of going out. And so

486
00:23:43,876 --> 00:23:45,916
Speaker 1: I think it can be a really powerful technique. I mean,

487
00:23:45,956 --> 00:23:48,876
Speaker 1: Reagan was right, like, it gets people moving, but it

488
00:23:48,876 --> 00:23:51,676
Speaker 1: can sometimes get it gets you moving too much. But

489
00:23:51,756 --> 00:23:54,276
Speaker 1: the flip side is that you can do the opposite

490
00:23:54,396 --> 00:23:58,076
Speaker 1: for the COVID kindness stories, right Like, I was reading

491
00:23:58,116 --> 00:24:01,236
Speaker 1: this story of this Yale student in fact, who started

492
00:24:01,236 --> 00:24:04,316
Speaker 1: this project called Invisible Hands where he is recruiting a

493
00:24:04,316 --> 00:24:06,916
Speaker 1: bunch of twenty year olds to give groceries to the

494
00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:10,116
Speaker 1: elderly who can't go out. And that's a human interest

495
00:24:10,156 --> 00:24:12,596
Speaker 1: story where it's pumping up my compassion, is pumping up

496
00:24:12,636 --> 00:24:14,756
Speaker 1: my positive will, it's making me feel like, oh my god,

497
00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:16,996
Speaker 1: they're still good in the world. You want to read

498
00:24:17,236 --> 00:24:19,676
Speaker 1: those in the flesh kinds of stories as opposed to

499
00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:22,396
Speaker 1: read the statistics about it that feels really good, and

500
00:24:22,476 --> 00:24:26,236
Speaker 1: so we can curate that to a certain extent. I mean,

501
00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:28,276
Speaker 1: I think that's the blessing in the curse of the

502
00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:30,556
Speaker 1: twenty four hour news cycle, is that there's so much

503
00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:33,356
Speaker 1: more content out there. We're pulled in and it affects

504
00:24:33,396 --> 00:24:36,516
Speaker 1: our emotions in ways that we can't control. But we

505
00:24:36,556 --> 00:24:39,196
Speaker 1: can control what we're bringing in. We can curate what

506
00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:42,956
Speaker 1: that content is. Can I ask you a philosophical question

507
00:24:43,196 --> 00:24:46,076
Speaker 1: that arises from this whole approach? I mean, I'm fascinated

508
00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:48,876
Speaker 1: by it, and especially in a crisis, it seems incredibly

509
00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:51,996
Speaker 1: appealing that one could do a little bit of curating

510
00:24:51,996 --> 00:24:55,236
Speaker 1: of the information that one takes on board in order

511
00:24:55,276 --> 00:24:59,076
Speaker 1: to help manage responses. I'm wondering if there is a

512
00:24:59,076 --> 00:25:02,076
Speaker 1: philosophical kind of objection, a kind of a hard nosed

513
00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:04,996
Speaker 1: philosopher who would say, well, yeah, no, I mean, that's

514
00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:07,516
Speaker 1: nice that you're doing that, but there's a form of

515
00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:10,316
Speaker 1: denial in all of that. There is a cold, hard

516
00:25:10,356 --> 00:25:15,756
Speaker 1: reality out there, and you should be feeling some sense

517
00:25:15,836 --> 00:25:21,836
Speaker 1: of existential dread, because that's simply what the circumstances warrant.

518
00:25:22,316 --> 00:25:24,876
Speaker 1: When you hear questions like that, do they seem to

519
00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:29,716
Speaker 1: you misguided or overstated or do you think, yeah, that's

520
00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:32,916
Speaker 1: that's fine. But there's different ways to take your existential dread.

521
00:25:32,956 --> 00:25:34,156
Speaker 1: You know, you can take it with a spoonful of

522
00:25:34,196 --> 00:25:36,516
Speaker 1: sugar and they'll be a little more manageable. Yeah, I mean,

523
00:25:36,556 --> 00:25:39,956
Speaker 1: I think those emotions, whether it's existential dread or joy

524
00:25:39,996 --> 00:25:43,236
Speaker 1: and compassion, they're there for a reason. They're they're there

525
00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 1: to cause us to take certain actions, and I think

526
00:25:45,996 --> 00:25:48,196
Speaker 1: right now there are certain actions that are warranted, Like

527
00:25:48,316 --> 00:25:50,276
Speaker 1: we need to be a little bit afraid to the

528
00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:52,316
Speaker 1: point that we stay in our house. We need to

529
00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,396
Speaker 1: be scared for our elderly relatives and for the economy,

530
00:25:55,476 --> 00:25:57,276
Speaker 1: so we can just kind of shelter in place and

531
00:25:57,316 --> 00:26:00,316
Speaker 1: do what we need to do. But beyond that, spiking

532
00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:03,556
Speaker 1: our existential anxiety is not going to help anyone. You know,

533
00:26:03,596 --> 00:26:05,956
Speaker 1: it's not going to help me make decisions about which

534
00:26:05,996 --> 00:26:08,236
Speaker 1: stocks I should deal with, because you know, doing that

535
00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:10,956
Speaker 1: from the position of like massive freaking out is not

536
00:26:10,996 --> 00:26:12,916
Speaker 1: going to help, right, It's not going to help me

537
00:26:13,036 --> 00:26:15,156
Speaker 1: plan for my family. When I finally do go out

538
00:26:15,156 --> 00:26:16,716
Speaker 1: and go to their grocery store, I'm not going to

539
00:26:16,756 --> 00:26:18,556
Speaker 1: be thinking rationally about, Okay, what do I need in

540
00:26:18,596 --> 00:26:20,156
Speaker 1: my pantry for the next two weeks. I'm just going

541
00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:23,316
Speaker 1: to be like panic shopping. And so the idea is

542
00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:26,236
Speaker 1: that what you want is the appropriate level of emotion.

543
00:26:26,316 --> 00:26:28,996
Speaker 1: That's what emotion researchers often talk about, is you want

544
00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,196
Speaker 1: the appropriate level of anxiety, the appropriate level of compassion,

545
00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,756
Speaker 1: and the appropriate level of empathy and so on, And

546
00:26:34,916 --> 00:26:36,716
Speaker 1: we can kind of get a sense of when we're

547
00:26:36,716 --> 00:26:39,436
Speaker 1: off track, you know. I mean, I think some folks, honestly,

548
00:26:39,436 --> 00:26:41,916
Speaker 1: my college students were experiencing it in the opposite direction,

549
00:26:41,916 --> 00:26:44,876
Speaker 1: where they're realizing, like wait, hang on, like they're canceling

550
00:26:44,956 --> 00:26:48,396
Speaker 1: Yale University, or not canceling there, they're moving Yale University

551
00:26:48,436 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 1: to online classes. Maybe this is something I need to

552
00:26:51,636 --> 00:26:55,716
Speaker 1: take really sport and clarification when I canceled when the

553
00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:58,076
Speaker 1: classes are happening right now. But I think that was

554
00:26:58,076 --> 00:27:00,996
Speaker 1: a moment when they upregulated anxiety, which is what they

555
00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:03,476
Speaker 1: needed to do for many of us. If they're listening

556
00:27:03,516 --> 00:27:07,156
Speaker 1: to this thinking I'm in existential panic that's not going

557
00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:10,116
Speaker 1: to help anybody, right, and it does doesn't feel good right,

558
00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:12,596
Speaker 1: and so I think those are times when you really

559
00:27:12,636 --> 00:27:15,956
Speaker 1: want to downregulate things to be able to function in

560
00:27:15,956 --> 00:27:19,996
Speaker 1: this environment. Laurie, what are questions that I'm not asking

561
00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:22,556
Speaker 1: you that I should be. You're doing a whole series

562
00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:26,636
Speaker 1: for your podcast, The Happiness Lab, about ways to deal

563
00:27:26,716 --> 00:27:31,996
Speaker 1: with challenges to psychological well being connected to the coronavirus crisis.

564
00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:34,156
Speaker 1: What are some takeaways that I haven't even asked you

565
00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:36,036
Speaker 1: about it? Yeah, well, you've covered a lot. I mean

566
00:27:36,076 --> 00:27:39,436
Speaker 1: one of our first episodes was about emotion regulation, in

567
00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:42,836
Speaker 1: particular this idea that we can decrease our anxiety by

568
00:27:43,076 --> 00:27:45,316
Speaker 1: changing our frame, and there's lots of different ways we

569
00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 1: can do that. One way we can change our frame

570
00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:51,156
Speaker 1: is to gain a little psychological distance. So it sounds

571
00:27:51,236 --> 00:27:53,156
Speaker 1: kind of goofy, but you can talk to yourself in

572
00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:55,716
Speaker 1: the third person, you know, Like Laurie's going to make

573
00:27:55,716 --> 00:27:57,716
Speaker 1: it through this. This is really challenging for Laurie, having

574
00:27:57,756 --> 00:27:59,636
Speaker 1: to teach outline and having to get stuck in her house,

575
00:27:59,636 --> 00:28:01,716
Speaker 1: but she's going to make it through. Turns out there's

576
00:28:01,756 --> 00:28:04,356
Speaker 1: lots of evidence to suggest that taking that kind of

577
00:28:04,516 --> 00:28:08,956
Speaker 1: slightly different linguistic approach to talking to ourselves allows us

578
00:28:08,996 --> 00:28:10,876
Speaker 1: to kind of think we're hearing from a coach who's

579
00:28:10,916 --> 00:28:13,636
Speaker 1: telling us important information about what our life is like.

580
00:28:13,996 --> 00:28:16,596
Speaker 1: And so those can be incredibly powerful techniques. Yeah. So,

581
00:28:16,596 --> 00:28:18,996
Speaker 1: so each episode is really just picking off a different

582
00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:22,236
Speaker 1: tiny tip that users can use to either feel better

583
00:28:22,396 --> 00:28:25,036
Speaker 1: feel less anxious in this time, but also to use

584
00:28:25,076 --> 00:28:27,316
Speaker 1: the time. Well, we have another episode coming up about

585
00:28:27,316 --> 00:28:29,836
Speaker 1: how you can use the fact that you're stuck in

586
00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:33,636
Speaker 1: this new situation to harness these new habits. Oftentimes, habit

587
00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:36,036
Speaker 1: researchers really work to figure out, you know, how can

588
00:28:36,076 --> 00:28:38,116
Speaker 1: you change the situation? You know, how can you move

589
00:28:38,396 --> 00:28:41,476
Speaker 1: the donuts from you know, the table where your office

590
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 1: always meets to somewhere else. We're always trying to change

591
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:47,116
Speaker 1: the situation to form better habits. But all of us

592
00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:50,996
Speaker 1: are now faced with this incredibly weird, unprecedented situation, and

593
00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:53,076
Speaker 1: we could set it up with the right routines and

594
00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:55,396
Speaker 1: the right habits to be able to do the things

595
00:28:55,436 --> 00:28:56,916
Speaker 1: we've been wanting to do for a while, you know,

596
00:28:56,996 --> 00:28:59,676
Speaker 1: exercise more, you know, connect with our friends who are

597
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:02,676
Speaker 1: far away on a more regular basis, this is our

598
00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:05,276
Speaker 1: opportunity to set up new habits, and so we shouldn't

599
00:29:05,636 --> 00:29:08,196
Speaker 1: miss out on the opportunity. I think that's the single

600
00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:10,956
Speaker 1: most positive thing heard any human being say in a month.

601
00:29:11,196 --> 00:29:13,916
Speaker 1: I'm a super grateful to do Laurie for all of

602
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:16,196
Speaker 1: these very valuable insights and for everything that you're doing.

603
00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:18,356
Speaker 1: Thank you for the time, and thanks for this new series.

604
00:29:18,396 --> 00:29:21,516
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for lent me on the show. Well,

605
00:29:21,556 --> 00:29:23,876
Speaker 1: I think I actually feel a little better after talking

606
00:29:23,916 --> 00:29:26,516
Speaker 1: to Laurie, not so much about the underlying facts as

607
00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:29,516
Speaker 1: about how we can go about coping with those facts.

608
00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:32,196
Speaker 1: If you want to hear more from Laurie, listen to

609
00:29:32,236 --> 00:29:39,556
Speaker 1: her podcast, The Happiness Lab from Pushkin Industries. Deep Background

610
00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:42,396
Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is

611
00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:46,676
Speaker 1: Lydia gene Coott, with research help from Zooe Wynn. Mastering

612
00:29:46,756 --> 00:29:49,996
Speaker 1: is by Jason Gambrell and Martin Gonzalez. Our showrunner is

613
00:29:50,036 --> 00:29:53,516
Speaker 1: Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music is composed by Luis GERA

614
00:29:53,756 --> 00:29:57,356
Speaker 1: special thanks to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg,

615
00:29:57,396 --> 00:30:00,596
Speaker 1: and Mia Lobel. I'm Noah Feldman. I also write a

616
00:30:00,676 --> 00:30:03,316
Speaker 1: regular column from Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at

617
00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:07,636
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate

618
00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:11,956
Speaker 1: of podcasts, go to umberg dot com slash Podcasts. You

619
00:30:11,996 --> 00:30:15,156
Speaker 1: can follow me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This

620
00:30:15,556 --> 00:30:16,556
Speaker 1: is deep background