WEBVTT - The Future of the NCAA 0:00:15.396 --> 0:00:24.036 Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background the show 0:00:24.036 --> 0:00:27.396 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:27.996 --> 0:00:32.956 I'm Noah Feldman. One of the strangest American institutions is 0:00:32.996 --> 0:00:36.556 college athletics. In no other country in the world are 0:00:36.596 --> 0:00:39.356 college sports such a big business as they are in 0:00:39.396 --> 0:00:42.516 the US. To get a sense of perspective of just 0:00:42.636 --> 0:00:46.796 how big college sports are, an ESPN article in twenty 0:00:46.876 --> 0:00:51.156 nineteen showed that in forty states, the highest paid state 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:54.756 employee is a college athletic coach, with a majority of 0:00:54.796 --> 0:00:58.396 those coaches making at least two million dollars a year. 0:00:59.356 --> 0:01:02.596 Half a million student athletes participate in college athletics at 0:01:02.636 --> 0:01:05.996 any one time. As I speak to you, this year's 0:01:06.156 --> 0:01:10.916 NCAA men's basketball tournament, March Madness, has just ended. At 0:01:10.956 --> 0:01:14.076 the same time, the NCAA is facing the most serious 0:01:14.156 --> 0:01:17.876 legal battle in its history. There's a case before the 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:22.276 Supreme Court right now in which the plaintiffs, former college athletes, 0:01:22.596 --> 0:01:26.956 are arguing that the current limits on athletic compensation constitute 0:01:26.956 --> 0:01:31.036 a violation of antitrust law. It's a case that challenges 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:35.636 and could change the entire underlying structure of how college 0:01:35.636 --> 0:01:41.236 sports operate. The oral argument last week was striking, just 0:01:41.396 --> 0:01:45.476 as Clarence Thomas, who doesn't always say anything in oral argument, said, 0:01:45.996 --> 0:01:48.796 it just strikes me as odd that the coaches salaries 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:51.556 have ballooned and they're in the amateur ranks, as are 0:01:51.556 --> 0:01:55.676 the players. Help us understand the current model of college sports, 0:01:56.116 --> 0:01:58.796 where it came from, how it's developed, and how it 0:01:58.876 --> 0:02:02.836 might be improved. We're speaking today to Professor Eddie Como. 0:02:03.476 --> 0:02:06.796 He's a professor at the University of California Riverside. His 0:02:06.916 --> 0:02:10.396 research centers on the college student experience, with a special 0:02:10.436 --> 0:02:14.636 focus on athletics. He's the founder and executive director of 0:02:14.676 --> 0:02:18.956 the Center for Athletes Rights and Equity. Before earning his PhD, 0:02:19.196 --> 0:02:22.836 he played baseball at the University of California, Berkeley. He 0:02:22.956 --> 0:02:26.036 was drafted by the Texas Rangers and played minor league 0:02:26.036 --> 0:02:30.836 baseball in their system. All in all, a fascinating background 0:02:31.036 --> 0:02:36.316 and just the perfect background to offer an informed, insider, critical, 0:02:36.396 --> 0:02:40.316 scholarly view of the way the system works. Eddie, thank 0:02:40.316 --> 0:02:43.916 you so much for being here with us. I want 0:02:43.956 --> 0:02:46.276 to start with a big picture question that I've never 0:02:46.356 --> 0:02:49.436 understood the answer too, and which reflects one of the 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:51.636 themes that we're focusing on deep background this year, which 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:54.636 is the theme of power. How did the nc double 0:02:54.676 --> 0:02:58.836 A get all the power that it has to set 0:02:58.876 --> 0:03:02.916 the rules for college athletics across the board? That is 0:03:03.196 --> 0:03:07.036 a million dollar question that if you just look back 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:11.836 to the history of the NCAA, it relied on amateurism 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:16.196 principles that were adopted by the nineteenth century British model 0:03:16.276 --> 0:03:20.636 that we play sport simply as an advocation, as a hobby. 0:03:21.236 --> 0:03:25.836 The minute that we begin to pay athletes for their labor, 0:03:26.076 --> 0:03:29.436 it may lead to unscrupulous behaviors. And so when they 0:03:29.476 --> 0:03:34.756 adopted these nineteenth century British model, they had a rulemaking 0:03:34.916 --> 0:03:37.996 in place that simply said that you're just going to 0:03:38.116 --> 0:03:41.156 play as a hobby. We are student athletes that are 0:03:41.196 --> 0:03:45.356 simply here to play, to get exercised, to enjoy for 0:03:45.476 --> 0:03:48.796 just the purity of it. But unfortunately, when you think 0:03:48.836 --> 0:03:53.316 about this structural arrangement of college athletics, over time it 0:03:53.396 --> 0:03:58.276 became increasingly commercialized, right and those who were engaged in 0:03:58.316 --> 0:04:02.476 the rulemaking process were the ones who benefited quite handsomely 0:04:02.556 --> 0:04:05.956 from that enterprise. And that has continued on today in 0:04:06.076 --> 0:04:09.396 terms of who makes up this model and who actually 0:04:09.436 --> 0:04:12.916 makes the rulemaking here, and that you know is part 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:15.196 of the reason why we see this power playing out 0:04:15.356 --> 0:04:17.676 is that you know, they have so much power in 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:22.116 terms of rulemaking policies that play out, which in my 0:04:22.276 --> 0:04:26.716 viewr barometer for whether or not we're inclusive. You're already 0:04:26.756 --> 0:04:29.876 opening my mind a lot. Start with this nineteenth century 0:04:29.916 --> 0:04:32.396 British amateurism. What I hear you saying is that when 0:04:32.396 --> 0:04:36.636 you add to that attitude actual money made by the 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:40.996 colleges and made by the NCAA, there's a total contradiction 0:04:41.236 --> 0:04:45.516 between the idea of amateurism and the de facto professionalism 0:04:45.516 --> 0:04:48.316 where money is made. Am I hearing you right? That's 0:04:48.356 --> 0:04:52.236 absolutely correct. And so what we see happening is that 0:04:52.276 --> 0:04:57.956 we amateurize the athlete, but we commercialize the product. Right. 0:04:58.116 --> 0:05:02.356 So here in lies the contradiction as well. When we 0:05:02.396 --> 0:05:06.076 think about how we're defining amateurism, right, we don't want 0:05:06.116 --> 0:05:11.276 to blur the lines of amateurism and the professional trappings. 0:05:12.036 --> 0:05:16.196 We want to ensure that there's a clear line of demarcation. 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:21.676 That is, that is fundamental to the NCAA member institutions position. 0:05:21.796 --> 0:05:23.716 We want a clear line. We don't want to blur 0:05:23.836 --> 0:05:27.916 those lines. But the minute you start to commercialize that enterprise, 0:05:28.756 --> 0:05:31.076 you know, we start to get into the weeds. We 0:05:31.076 --> 0:05:34.556 start to see how you know, you have football coaches 0:05:34.556 --> 0:05:38.156 that make upwards of ten million dollars, the average basketball 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:41.116 coach might make three million dollars a year UM, and 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:45.516 other externalities such as sponsorships that are also have their 0:05:45.516 --> 0:05:48.556 hands in the cookie jar, all on the backs of 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:53.316 these college athletes, right, particularly in the revenue generating sports 0:05:53.316 --> 0:05:57.076 of football and men's basketball. UM. And then also as 0:05:57.076 --> 0:06:00.556 you think about the sort of evolution of amateurism, you know, 0:06:00.676 --> 0:06:04.876 we started out where athletes weren't being compensated at all, 0:06:05.196 --> 0:06:10.596 right for um, their their educational suit. But it was 0:06:10.676 --> 0:06:15.876 in nineteen fifty six that the NCAA decided that we're 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:20.276 going to allow four year guaranteed scholarships to athletes. And 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:22.996 this was at a time where they were trying to 0:06:23.036 --> 0:06:26.236 sort of curb the unscrupulous behavior that was playing out. 0:06:26.276 --> 0:06:30.716 Many boosters and alums were trying to channel and push 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:34.916 athletes toward their school by offering them money under the table, right, 0:06:34.956 --> 0:06:37.716 So they felt like they can curb that by offering them, 0:06:38.516 --> 0:06:41.516 you know, four year guaranteed. But if you fast forward 0:06:41.556 --> 0:06:46.516 to nineteen seventy three, they went to one year renewable scholarships, right, 0:06:47.116 --> 0:06:50.636 And how do you justify going from four years to 0:06:50.836 --> 0:06:53.636 one year? Right? And so many you know who are 0:06:54.036 --> 0:06:56.436 I would say critics of the NCAA would say, well, 0:06:56.756 --> 0:07:00.036 you know, they defined amateurs and whatever way they want, 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.996 whatever is in their own self interests, right, But this 0:07:03.076 --> 0:07:06.836 one year renewable scholarship then says that you know, the 0:07:07.196 --> 0:07:11.516 coach can non renew your scholarship for any reason. Right. 0:07:11.556 --> 0:07:15.116 You can have a four point o GPA, and just 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:18.556 because of the coach doesn't like your politics or doesn't 0:07:18.556 --> 0:07:20.756 like the way you're performing on the field, you know, 0:07:20.876 --> 0:07:23.916 you can lose that scholarship. So, so, what justifies the 0:07:24.116 --> 0:07:28.076 change over time in scholarships when if the goal is 0:07:28.116 --> 0:07:30.916 to support athletes so that they can you know, matriculate 0:07:30.916 --> 0:07:34.116 and graduate and have some sort of support as they 0:07:34.156 --> 0:07:38.796 go through their program of study, explain to me why 0:07:39.116 --> 0:07:42.476 the nt double A as a kind of like collective 0:07:42.636 --> 0:07:46.836 entity hasn't been broken by individual actors, Let's say colleges, 0:07:47.476 --> 0:07:51.356 who would say, we can make more money and change 0:07:51.356 --> 0:07:53.596 the situation by going out on our own. You know, 0:07:53.636 --> 0:07:55.396 one of the leagues I don't know, the Big ten 0:07:55.596 --> 0:07:58.316 or you name it, would say, well, we think we 0:07:58.316 --> 0:08:01.156 can make more money by breaking away from the NCAA, 0:08:01.316 --> 0:08:04.476 doing it our own way, keeping television revenue and paying 0:08:04.476 --> 0:08:08.316 our players. You know, that's a good question, and I'm 0:08:08.356 --> 0:08:11.716 just gonna trying to be as pragmatic as possible. When 0:08:11.716 --> 0:08:16.596 you think about college sports a source of entertainment, an 0:08:16.596 --> 0:08:21.916 opportunity to bring folks together for a common goal, perhaps 0:08:21.996 --> 0:08:24.876 to win, to win a national championship, you see a 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:30.196 lot of stakeholders that enjoy this entertainment and they understand 0:08:30.276 --> 0:08:32.796 the beauty of that. And so then to push up 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:37.676 against something that has a history of bringing folks together, 0:08:37.796 --> 0:08:41.556 whether you have lawmakers, legislators you know who are also 0:08:42.036 --> 0:08:46.356 could potentially be pushing back on a model that you know, 0:08:46.676 --> 0:08:50.236 many would argue as inequitable. I think the fact that 0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:53.516 there's a source of entertainment has been part of our 0:08:53.596 --> 0:08:58.196 history and legacy that is hard to disrupt that. The 0:08:58.316 --> 0:09:01.116 other piece, which I think is probably a more compelling 0:09:01.276 --> 0:09:06.636 argument to make here, is that college athletes are very vulnerable. Right. 0:09:06.956 --> 0:09:11.556 They don't have collective bargaining, they don't have the leverage 0:09:12.116 --> 0:09:15.676 to really push back on a system that many would 0:09:15.756 --> 0:09:18.156 argue or not in their best interests. We saw in 0:09:18.196 --> 0:09:24.636 twenty fourteen at Northwestern University where Kane Coulter, the quarterback 0:09:24.676 --> 0:09:27.836 at the time, try to push to get athletes to 0:09:27.916 --> 0:09:31.516 be able to bargain collectively, but that didn't play out 0:09:31.516 --> 0:09:35.756 with the labor relations board. And we saw multiple times 0:09:35.956 --> 0:09:39.556 during the pandemic where players because of they didn't feel 0:09:39.596 --> 0:09:42.116 protected during the pandemic and trying to go out and 0:09:42.116 --> 0:09:45.756 play football. You have many people rallying around that, but 0:09:45.796 --> 0:09:49.116 they just don't have the power right to be able 0:09:49.156 --> 0:09:53.836 to orchestrate something on a level that pushes back against 0:09:53.876 --> 0:09:57.116 a system that is not always in their best interests. 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:59.876 And so I see two things. You have many stakeholders 0:10:00.036 --> 0:10:03.356 that enjoy a sport in its current form and don't 0:10:03.396 --> 0:10:06.116 want to disrupt that. They like the status quo and 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:08.796 they want to perpetuate that on the backs of these 0:10:08.836 --> 0:10:11.396 vote athletes. And then the other piece too is the 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:14.756 lack of power, the lack of ability to really bargain 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:18.996 collectively for their own rights and well being. There are 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:22.836 two key power elements there. One is if the athletes 0:10:22.876 --> 0:10:25.996 had a union, they would be much more empowered to 0:10:26.076 --> 0:10:29.076 act and I know you know you're not an union lawyer. 0:10:29.156 --> 0:10:32.396 Neither am I, but what can you say about why 0:10:32.596 --> 0:10:37.116 the National Labor Relations Board didn't say ultimately that athletes 0:10:37.276 --> 0:10:39.196 should be able to unionize. I mean it's striking to me. 0:10:39.356 --> 0:10:40.836 You know, I teach on a university like you do. 0:10:41.436 --> 0:10:46.356 Graduate students have organized to unionize, not because they're playing sports, 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:51.596 but because they're teaching classes, and in general, the NLRB 0:10:51.676 --> 0:10:54.116 has been relatively sympathetic. A lot of people on campus 0:10:54.116 --> 0:10:57.116 don't like that, but there they've been successful in many 0:10:57.116 --> 0:11:00.396 instances of getting unions validated. And it seems to me 0:11:00.516 --> 0:11:02.756 that there those graduate students have even less of an 0:11:02.836 --> 0:11:07.196 argument for unionization than the athletes do because they're bringing 0:11:07.196 --> 0:11:09.516 in so much revenue for the university and they're also 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:12.676 being compensated. So I mean, as a matter of morality, justice, 0:11:12.676 --> 0:11:15.876 and logic, it seems like student athletes should have a union. 0:11:16.396 --> 0:11:20.916 So why don't they? Right? That's a good question, And 0:11:20.956 --> 0:11:25.476 if we talk specifically about the case study of Northwestern 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:30.996 in twenty fourteen, the Labor Relations Board actually punted on 0:11:31.036 --> 0:11:34.396 this issue, and part of that is that they didn't 0:11:34.396 --> 0:11:37.236 want to make a decision that's going to impact the 0:11:37.436 --> 0:11:41.396 entire landscape of college athletics. The argument has been one, right, 0:11:41.436 --> 0:11:45.236 like Northwestern is a private school, right, so they have 0:11:45.276 --> 0:11:49.276 a little bit more autonomy and flexibility than perhaps the 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:53.836 public school. So so if this was enacted, this would 0:11:53.876 --> 0:11:58.436 apply to Northwestern, but not necessarily say UCLA Public University. 0:11:58.916 --> 0:12:01.996 And so the argument for many, particularly the NCAA, has 0:12:02.036 --> 0:12:05.756 always been this imbalanced, this competitive equity issue, that if 0:12:05.796 --> 0:12:10.236 we allow an opportunity for Northwestern embarking collectively, what about 0:12:10.276 --> 0:12:14.316 those other schools? Would there be parody in college sports? Well, 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:18.836 part of that argument, you know, around competitive equity, has 0:12:18.916 --> 0:12:22.836 already been debunked. Right when we think about recruiting, there 0:12:22.916 --> 0:12:26.636 is no competitive equity, particularly in Division one school. I 0:12:26.756 --> 0:12:29.596 was just reading how the University of Georgia spent four 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:33.596 hundred thousand dollars on recruiting four a week. Part of 0:12:33.596 --> 0:12:36.756 that was private jets and a number of coaches that 0:12:36.796 --> 0:12:39.556 actually went to help with that recruiting process. If you 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:41.476 look at a Division in one school where I'm at, 0:12:41.516 --> 0:12:47.316 you see Riverside, you know we're probably not flying private jets, 0:12:48.596 --> 0:12:52.156 perhaps using a buddy pass on Southwest, and so it's 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:54.236 not there is no competitive equity when you look at 0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:56.876 the amount of money that's made at Alabama, you know, 0:12:56.916 --> 0:12:59.236 where they may have a budget of over two hundred 0:12:59.236 --> 0:13:03.676 million dollars and other universities might be around seventeen million dollars. 0:13:03.676 --> 0:13:06.236 So it doesn't add up. So, you know, I think 0:13:06.276 --> 0:13:08.836 part of that is the punt because they didn't want 0:13:08.836 --> 0:13:12.596 to be responsible for the changes in college athletics. But 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.476 the other piece, you know, I'm excited, Noah about the 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:21.916 fact that there are sort of this movement toward better 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:24.916 equity among athletes where they were talking about the nil 0:13:25.196 --> 0:13:29.276 conversations that's playing out right now. You saw what happened 0:13:29.276 --> 0:13:31.596 with the Pac twelve conference where a lot of players 0:13:32.196 --> 0:13:37.076 were pushing back on the lack of protections during a pandemic, 0:13:37.516 --> 0:13:40.796 And what was the motivation behind actually having these players 0:13:40.836 --> 0:13:43.596 come out and play. Was it all driven by the 0:13:43.676 --> 0:13:46.956 potential losses that might play out if the season didn't ensue. 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.916 So these are the kinds of things I'm thinking about. 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:53.356 So I'm on the one hand, optimistic that we can 0:13:53.396 --> 0:13:56.716 move in at directed, but I'm also understanding where folks 0:13:57.076 --> 0:14:01.236 would prefer the status quo because they think that changes 0:14:01.356 --> 0:14:06.236 might disrupt that sort of ethos of college athletics. I 0:14:06.316 --> 0:14:08.356 want to ask one more power question, but before I do, 0:14:08.396 --> 0:14:10.396 I just want to ask you to unpack for for 0:14:10.476 --> 0:14:13.876 listeners the name image likeness issue. You were talking about, 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:18.396 the NIL issue in case folks don't know what that is. Yes, So, name, 0:14:18.516 --> 0:14:21.836 image and likeness. If you're a student, a non athlete student, 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:25.996 and you come up with a novel idea you can 0:14:25.996 --> 0:14:30.516 get you can be compensated for it. There's no guardrails, 0:14:30.236 --> 0:14:33.476 there's there's no caps in terms of how much money 0:14:33.996 --> 0:14:36.796 you can monetize your name, image and likeness. But but 0:14:36.916 --> 0:14:40.116 the athletes can't. Right. This is actually part of case 0:14:40.236 --> 0:14:45.396 law and we can go back to O'Bannon versus the NCAA, 0:14:45.956 --> 0:14:50.316 which was a class action antitrust lawsuit where Ed O'Bannon, 0:14:50.436 --> 0:14:54.916 a former All American basketball player, charged at the NCAA 0:14:55.036 --> 0:14:59.396 violated the Sherman Act by using athletes image and likeness 0:14:59.396 --> 0:15:03.356 in live game broadcasts and video games while not allowing 0:15:03.396 --> 0:15:06.236 them to receive a share of that revenue. And so, 0:15:06.516 --> 0:15:10.036 if I'm not mistaken, In about June of twenty fourteen, 0:15:10.156 --> 0:15:15.276 Judge Wilkins concluded that the NCAA amateurism rules as it 0:15:15.356 --> 0:15:19.156 was written at the time, were more restrictive than necessary 0:15:19.676 --> 0:15:22.516 and in violated the Sherman Acts. As a result of that, 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:27.356 the ruling required the NCAA to permit member institutions to 0:15:27.476 --> 0:15:30.396 compensate athletes up to the cost of attendance, which was 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:34.396 about five thousand dollars per year in deferred payments for 0:15:34.436 --> 0:15:37.756 the commercial use of their name, image, and likeness. Of course, 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:42.116 the NCAA appealed that verdict in the US Court of 0:15:42.156 --> 0:15:45.276 Appeals of the Nice Circuit, and then in December of 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:50.796 twenty fifteen allowed athletes the full cost of attending college, 0:15:50.796 --> 0:15:55.036 and again that was around five thousand dollars. So the 0:15:55.156 --> 0:15:59.956 point here is that although athletes can't be paid unlimited 0:16:00.116 --> 0:16:03.516 amounts of money if they are seen in video games 0:16:03.516 --> 0:16:06.116 for their name, image, and likeness, the judge did rule 0:16:06.996 --> 0:16:12.836 that for educational purpose or educational expenses, they can receive 0:16:12.916 --> 0:16:15.796 up to five thousand dollars. And then, of course we 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:22.516 see now ongoing litigation about name, image and likeness of California, 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:27.396 the first state to sign into law name Image and Likeness, 0:16:27.396 --> 0:16:30.836 which would allow players to be paid for their name, 0:16:30.916 --> 0:16:34.916 image and likeness. Starting in twenty twenty three, Florida will 0:16:34.956 --> 0:16:38.396 actually be the first state that will allow players to 0:16:38.436 --> 0:16:41.636 be paid for their name, image, and likeness, and starting 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:44.916 July one of twenty twenty one. And so now an 0:16:44.956 --> 0:16:49.716 athlete can go to their local high school and run 0:16:49.196 --> 0:16:52.796 a camp for youth and be paid for it. Now 0:16:52.836 --> 0:16:56.476 a player can go out and sign autographs and be 0:16:56.556 --> 0:17:00.036 paid for their name, image, or likeness. And this is 0:17:00.076 --> 0:17:04.316 something that over a dozen states now are moving forward 0:17:04.436 --> 0:17:09.556 with legislation, while at the same time, the nca and 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:14.036 member institutions are pulling together a work group to figure 0:17:14.076 --> 0:17:17.316 out if they can come up with a uniform policy. 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:19.716 And then this goes back to what I said. Their 0:17:19.796 --> 0:17:23.796 argument is this, if California and Florida, in a handful 0:17:23.836 --> 0:17:28.276 of other states are allowed athletes to be paid for 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:31.516 their name, image, and enlightness, it would lead to competitive 0:17:32.396 --> 0:17:36.156 inequities or imbalance of power. So they feel like it's 0:17:36.156 --> 0:17:38.676 in their best interest to come up with new policy 0:17:38.756 --> 0:17:43.996 that uniform before these new states roll out their new legislation. 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:46.876 But there's also, you know, concern and I'm not sure 0:17:46.876 --> 0:17:49.836 if this is more of a bark than a bite, 0:17:49.876 --> 0:17:53.196 but the NCAA said, if these states do move forward, 0:17:53.556 --> 0:17:57.396 they'll be ineligible for competition. Now, that brings us to 0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:00.436 the Supreme Court case, which is before the Supreme Court 0:18:00.836 --> 0:18:03.596 right now, and which we'll get a decision this year. 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:07.236 Usually by the end of June is the traditional decision 0:18:07.276 --> 0:18:09.956 time for the hardest cases, although last year it went 0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:14.316 into July because of COVID. What's your take on that case? 0:18:14.356 --> 0:18:17.396 And to start with, just to remind listeners or for 0:18:17.436 --> 0:18:20.516 those who haven't been following it so closely, what's at 0:18:20.516 --> 0:18:24.236 stake there? I mean, that's an antitrust challenge to the 0:18:24.276 --> 0:18:29.556 whole practice of the NCAA prohibiting cash related or cash 0:18:29.596 --> 0:18:33.916 similar benefits to be given to athletes, right, I mean 0:18:33.956 --> 0:18:36.876 if they if the Supreme Court were to uphold the 0:18:37.156 --> 0:18:39.596 Court of Appeals there, how radical a change would we 0:18:39.676 --> 0:18:44.916 be likely to see? So, you know, again, if we 0:18:44.996 --> 0:18:49.156 think about the structural arrangement of college athletics, there are 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:53.396 many people who benefit quite hansily from the enterprise coaches, 0:18:53.476 --> 0:19:00.036 athletic directors, conference commissioners, sponsors, TV contracts, CBS, turner sports 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:04.596 on the backs of athletes. So I don't actually see 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:07.836 this as a radical change in an institution of higher 0:19:07.916 --> 0:19:10.916 learning where athletes are putting their lives on the line 0:19:11.316 --> 0:19:15.716 risking injury, right, spending a disproportionate amount of time on 0:19:15.756 --> 0:19:19.076 their sport at the expense of their educational pursuit. You know, 0:19:19.276 --> 0:19:21.956 there are studies that suggested athletes spend more than fifty 0:19:21.956 --> 0:19:25.396 hours a week on sport related activities, not to mention 0:19:25.436 --> 0:19:29.116 the mental fatigue, the physical exhaustion, the nagging injuries that 0:19:29.156 --> 0:19:32.356 are accompanied with those who participate in sport. To now 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:38.596 have into law or to think about allowing more educational 0:19:38.716 --> 0:19:42.636 benefits for athletes. So if they want to pursue an 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:47.796 internship and they need to be funded for that opportunity, 0:19:48.716 --> 0:19:51.916 there's a chance with this new legislation that that could happen. Right. 0:19:52.276 --> 0:19:54.556 There's also opportunities that if you wanted to go to 0:19:54.556 --> 0:19:59.516 professional or graduate school, these schools, these member institutions can 0:19:59.636 --> 0:20:03.556 provide sort of an escrow account at the end of 0:20:03.596 --> 0:20:07.756 their eligibility. So this is not just giving payments to athletes. 0:20:08.116 --> 0:20:12.956 This isn't incentive for the academic success, right, So I 0:20:13.276 --> 0:20:18.836 can get behind opportunities that tie to their academic goals 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:22.276 and obligation in the institute of higher learning. I'm not 0:20:22.356 --> 0:20:25.516 at all just in favor of just paying athletes just 0:20:25.596 --> 0:20:28.756 to pay them right. I do feel like there should 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:30.836 be some structure in place. There should be some at 0:20:30.916 --> 0:20:35.756 timing for these individual institutions to decide what that formula 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.316 might look like, what that might look like in practice, 0:20:38.356 --> 0:20:41.556 and so I think it would be a shift. It 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:45.556 would be actually a sea change if, in fact, you know, 0:20:45.756 --> 0:20:49.796 the Supreme Court upholds the plaintiffs in this case, Austin 0:20:50.276 --> 0:20:54.236 to allow those educational benefits something beyond you know, I 0:20:54.276 --> 0:20:57.436 think right now we're talking five nine hundred and eighty 0:20:57.436 --> 0:21:00.836 dollars to be exact, but to exceed that number, which 0:21:00.876 --> 0:21:04.116 I think was arbitrary to begin with. To be able 0:21:04.116 --> 0:21:06.636 to exceed that and have something at the end of eligibility, 0:21:07.316 --> 0:21:10.836 I think would be a nice gesture on the part 0:21:10.996 --> 0:21:14.596 of the Supreme Court to really support these athletes and 0:21:14.636 --> 0:21:18.276 they're going through, you know, a very rigorous program and 0:21:18.436 --> 0:21:23.036 also trying to balance their athletics. You mentioned along the way, 0:21:23.036 --> 0:21:25.436 there's something that I think a lot of casual fans 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:27.756 don't know that a lot of athletes will put in 0:21:27.876 --> 0:21:30.756 up to fifty hours a week or more on their 0:21:30.836 --> 0:21:34.276 sports while they're going to college full time. At the 0:21:34.316 --> 0:21:37.356 same time, I remember very vividly the first time I 0:21:37.396 --> 0:21:39.756 learned about that. It was when I met Corey Booker 0:21:40.316 --> 0:21:42.356 back when we were, you know, each in our early 0:21:42.396 --> 0:21:45.676 twenties to write out of college, and he was describing 0:21:45.716 --> 0:21:47.836 to me how he discovered that he was a really 0:21:47.836 --> 0:21:50.316 good student, and he said it was because when he 0:21:50.316 --> 0:21:52.556 was recruited to Stanford, he was red shirted as a freshman, 0:21:52.596 --> 0:21:55.676 he played football, and then there was a new coach 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:57.556 who came in and what would have been his fifth year, 0:21:57.796 --> 0:22:00.196 and the coach didn't believe in red shirting, so he 0:22:00.316 --> 0:22:03.036 lost the year of eligibility that he still had available 0:22:03.076 --> 0:22:05.196 to him. And he said, I was really upset about it, 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:07.076 and you know, Corey was also I think the student 0:22:07.116 --> 0:22:09.316 body president. He went and met the president of Stanford 0:22:09.356 --> 0:22:11.116 and said, you know what's going on here? I really 0:22:11.156 --> 0:22:14.636 want to play and the coach was really firm about it. 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:16.516 And so Corey said, for the first time in my 0:22:17.476 --> 0:22:20.236 college career, I didn't have to spend fifty hours a 0:22:20.236 --> 0:22:22.956 week doing football. And it turned out I was really 0:22:22.996 --> 0:22:25.476 good at school, and I was really proud of how 0:22:25.476 --> 0:22:27.836 well I was doing. Suddenly, and I was like, wait 0:22:27.876 --> 0:22:29.716 a minute, how many hours a week did you spend 0:22:29.716 --> 0:22:31.996 on football? I just I was just blown away by it. 0:22:32.036 --> 0:22:36.436 I mean, lots of us have part time jobs in college, 0:22:36.476 --> 0:22:38.356 but the idea of working a full time or more 0:22:38.356 --> 0:22:42.476 than full time job that is profoundly physically exhausting and 0:22:42.516 --> 0:22:46.636 then going to college just suggests to me the absurdity 0:22:46.676 --> 0:22:49.996 of the idea that there is amateurism of any kind here. 0:22:50.036 --> 0:22:55.076 I mean, it's a full time job coupled with educational attainment. 0:22:55.196 --> 0:22:58.356 And I guess what I'm wondering about that is, how 0:22:58.356 --> 0:23:01.796 can the NCTIA get away with the story that they 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:06.716 are quote unquote giving an education when the students have 0:23:06.796 --> 0:23:10.036 to get their education in the what time is left 0:23:10.076 --> 0:23:12.676 to them after performing a full time job. It just 0:23:12.716 --> 0:23:17.476 seems so outrageous when you hear that number, right, And 0:23:17.756 --> 0:23:19.476 the question for me is how do you strike a 0:23:19.556 --> 0:23:23.396 healthy balance between academics and athletics. I have a huge 0:23:23.516 --> 0:23:26.716 problem with the fact that because of this arrangement of 0:23:26.756 --> 0:23:31.116 college athletics and the sort of demands from the coaches, 0:23:31.156 --> 0:23:34.756 the demands from playing, the fact that you now have 0:23:34.996 --> 0:23:40.196 a conference realignment where schools are realigning to conferences because 0:23:40.196 --> 0:23:43.116 they can think they can get bigger TV contracts, and 0:23:43.156 --> 0:23:47.636 with those bigger TV contracts, schools are likely to travel 0:23:47.756 --> 0:23:52.276 greater distances. When you're traveling greater distances, it's likely that 0:23:52.356 --> 0:23:55.276 those players will spend less time in the classroom. Right, 0:23:55.516 --> 0:23:59.196 So we're now seeing this real push towards sort of 0:23:59.196 --> 0:24:03.156 their athletics at the expense of their academics. And then 0:24:03.316 --> 0:24:06.756 just even thinking about majors, right, Like many athletes are 0:24:06.796 --> 0:24:10.396 pursuing majors that aren't even aligned with their career interests 0:24:10.436 --> 0:24:14.156 just so that they can maintain their eligibility, right, And 0:24:14.196 --> 0:24:17.076 so the structure is not working at all. And then 0:24:17.116 --> 0:24:19.476 when you think about the sort of the propaganda that 0:24:19.516 --> 0:24:22.436 plays out, well, you know, most athletes will go pro 0:24:22.596 --> 0:24:26.796 and things other than sport, right, and athletes are graduating 0:24:27.356 --> 0:24:31.156 at a higher clip than their non athlete peers. But 0:24:31.236 --> 0:24:37.916 if you disaggregate, right, those athletes in revenue generating sports, 0:24:37.956 --> 0:24:42.356 and then you disaggregate by race ethnicity, right where there's 0:24:42.396 --> 0:24:48.316 a heavy concentration of specifically black athletes, their graduation rates 0:24:48.556 --> 0:24:53.636 are hovering around fifty five, right, And that's the federal 0:24:53.676 --> 0:24:59.836 graduation rates, right, And that's that's disappointing, particularly when we 0:24:59.916 --> 0:25:04.196 think about how black black students make up about three 0:25:04.236 --> 0:25:08.556 percent of colleges and universities, Yet they make up over 0:25:08.596 --> 0:25:12.596 fifty p scent of those who are dribbling basketballs or 0:25:12.676 --> 0:25:17.556 trying to catch a football right. That to me is disturbing. 0:25:18.756 --> 0:25:22.516 And so if we believe that the model in its 0:25:22.556 --> 0:25:28.116 current form is working well, as some probably believe, they 0:25:28.116 --> 0:25:30.676