1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:24,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background the show 2 00:00:24,036 --> 00:00:27,396 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,996 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. One of the strangest American institutions is 4 00:00:32,996 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 1: college athletics. In no other country in the world are 5 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:39,356 Speaker 1: college sports such a big business as they are in 6 00:00:39,396 --> 00:00:42,516 Speaker 1: the US. To get a sense of perspective of just 7 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:46,796 Speaker 1: how big college sports are, an ESPN article in twenty 8 00:00:46,876 --> 00:00:51,156 Speaker 1: nineteen showed that in forty states, the highest paid state 9 00:00:51,196 --> 00:00:54,756 Speaker 1: employee is a college athletic coach, with a majority of 10 00:00:54,796 --> 00:00:58,396 Speaker 1: those coaches making at least two million dollars a year. 11 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:02,596 Speaker 1: Half a million student athletes participate in college athletics at 12 00:01:02,636 --> 00:01:05,996 Speaker 1: any one time. As I speak to you, this year's 13 00:01:06,156 --> 00:01:10,916 Speaker 1: NCAA men's basketball tournament, March Madness, has just ended. At 14 00:01:10,956 --> 00:01:14,076 Speaker 1: the same time, the NCAA is facing the most serious 15 00:01:14,156 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: legal battle in its history. There's a case before the 16 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:22,276 Speaker 1: Supreme Court right now in which the plaintiffs, former college athletes, 17 00:01:22,596 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: are arguing that the current limits on athletic compensation constitute 18 00:01:26,956 --> 00:01:31,036 Speaker 1: a violation of antitrust law. It's a case that challenges 19 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:35,636 Speaker 1: and could change the entire underlying structure of how college 20 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 1: sports operate. The oral argument last week was striking, just 21 00:01:41,396 --> 00:01:45,476 Speaker 1: as Clarence Thomas, who doesn't always say anything in oral argument, said, 22 00:01:45,996 --> 00:01:48,796 Speaker 1: it just strikes me as odd that the coaches salaries 23 00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: have ballooned and they're in the amateur ranks, as are 24 00:01:51,556 --> 00:01:55,676 Speaker 1: the players. Help us understand the current model of college sports, 25 00:01:56,116 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: where it came from, how it's developed, and how it 26 00:01:58,876 --> 00:02:02,836 Speaker 1: might be improved. We're speaking today to Professor Eddie Como. 27 00:02:03,476 --> 00:02:06,796 Speaker 1: He's a professor at the University of California Riverside. His 28 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:10,396 Speaker 1: research centers on the college student experience, with a special 29 00:02:10,436 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: focus on athletics. He's the founder and executive director of 30 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:18,956 Speaker 1: the Center for Athletes Rights and Equity. Before earning his PhD, 31 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: he played baseball at the University of California, Berkeley. He 32 00:02:22,956 --> 00:02:26,036 Speaker 1: was drafted by the Texas Rangers and played minor league 33 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:30,836 Speaker 1: baseball in their system. All in all, a fascinating background 34 00:02:31,036 --> 00:02:36,316 Speaker 1: and just the perfect background to offer an informed, insider, critical, 35 00:02:36,396 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: scholarly view of the way the system works. Eddie, thank 36 00:02:40,316 --> 00:02:43,916 Speaker 1: you so much for being here with us. I want 37 00:02:43,956 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: to start with a big picture question that I've never 38 00:02:46,356 --> 00:02:49,436 Speaker 1: understood the answer too, and which reflects one of the 39 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:51,636 Speaker 1: themes that we're focusing on deep background this year, which 40 00:02:51,636 --> 00:02:54,636 Speaker 1: is the theme of power. How did the nc double 41 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:58,836 Speaker 1: A get all the power that it has to set 42 00:02:58,876 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: the rules for college athletics across the board? That is 43 00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:07,036 Speaker 1: a million dollar question that if you just look back 44 00:03:07,036 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: to the history of the NCAA, it relied on amateurism 45 00:03:11,916 --> 00:03:16,196 Speaker 1: principles that were adopted by the nineteenth century British model 46 00:03:16,276 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 1: that we play sport simply as an advocation, as a hobby. 47 00:03:21,236 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: The minute that we begin to pay athletes for their labor, 48 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,436 Speaker 1: it may lead to unscrupulous behaviors. And so when they 49 00:03:29,476 --> 00:03:34,756 Speaker 1: adopted these nineteenth century British model, they had a rulemaking 50 00:03:34,916 --> 00:03:37,996 Speaker 1: in place that simply said that you're just going to 51 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:41,156 Speaker 1: play as a hobby. We are student athletes that are 52 00:03:41,196 --> 00:03:45,356 Speaker 1: simply here to play, to get exercised, to enjoy for 53 00:03:45,476 --> 00:03:48,796 Speaker 1: just the purity of it. But unfortunately, when you think 54 00:03:48,836 --> 00:03:53,316 Speaker 1: about this structural arrangement of college athletics, over time it 55 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: became increasingly commercialized, right and those who were engaged in 56 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:02,476 Speaker 1: the rulemaking process were the ones who benefited quite handsomely 57 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:05,956 Speaker 1: from that enterprise. And that has continued on today in 58 00:04:06,076 --> 00:04:09,396 Speaker 1: terms of who makes up this model and who actually 59 00:04:09,436 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 1: makes the rulemaking here, and that you know is part 60 00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:15,196 Speaker 1: of the reason why we see this power playing out 61 00:04:15,356 --> 00:04:17,676 Speaker 1: is that you know, they have so much power in 62 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 1: terms of rulemaking policies that play out, which in my 63 00:04:22,276 --> 00:04:26,716 Speaker 1: viewr barometer for whether or not we're inclusive. You're already 64 00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: opening my mind a lot. Start with this nineteenth century 65 00:04:29,916 --> 00:04:32,396 Speaker 1: British amateurism. What I hear you saying is that when 66 00:04:32,396 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 1: you add to that attitude actual money made by the 67 00:04:36,676 --> 00:04:40,996 Speaker 1: colleges and made by the NCAA, there's a total contradiction 68 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 1: between the idea of amateurism and the de facto professionalism 69 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:48,316 Speaker 1: where money is made. Am I hearing you right? That's 70 00:04:48,356 --> 00:04:52,236 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. And so what we see happening is that 71 00:04:52,276 --> 00:04:57,956 Speaker 1: we amateurize the athlete, but we commercialize the product. Right. 72 00:04:58,116 --> 00:05:02,356 Speaker 1: So here in lies the contradiction as well. When we 73 00:05:02,396 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 1: think about how we're defining amateurism, right, we don't want 74 00:05:06,116 --> 00:05:11,276 Speaker 1: to blur the lines of amateurism and the professional trappings. 75 00:05:12,036 --> 00:05:16,196 Speaker 1: We want to ensure that there's a clear line of demarcation. 76 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 1: That is, that is fundamental to the NCAA member institutions position. 77 00:05:21,796 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 1: We want a clear line. We don't want to blur 78 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:27,916 Speaker 1: those lines. But the minute you start to commercialize that enterprise, 79 00:05:28,756 --> 00:05:31,076 Speaker 1: you know, we start to get into the weeds. We 80 00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 1: start to see how you know, you have football coaches 81 00:05:34,556 --> 00:05:38,156 Speaker 1: that make upwards of ten million dollars, the average basketball 82 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:41,116 Speaker 1: coach might make three million dollars a year UM, and 83 00:05:41,276 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 1: other externalities such as sponsorships that are also have their 84 00:05:45,516 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: hands in the cookie jar, all on the backs of 85 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 1: these college athletes, right, particularly in the revenue generating sports 86 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:57,076 Speaker 1: of football and men's basketball. UM. And then also as 87 00:05:57,076 --> 00:06:00,556 Speaker 1: you think about the sort of evolution of amateurism, you know, 88 00:06:00,676 --> 00:06:04,876 Speaker 1: we started out where athletes weren't being compensated at all, 89 00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:10,596 Speaker 1: right for um, their their educational suit. But it was 90 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:15,876 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six that the NCAA decided that we're 91 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:20,276 Speaker 1: going to allow four year guaranteed scholarships to athletes. And 92 00:06:20,316 --> 00:06:22,996 Speaker 1: this was at a time where they were trying to 93 00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:26,236 Speaker 1: sort of curb the unscrupulous behavior that was playing out. 94 00:06:26,276 --> 00:06:30,716 Speaker 1: Many boosters and alums were trying to channel and push 95 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:34,916 Speaker 1: athletes toward their school by offering them money under the table, right, 96 00:06:34,956 --> 00:06:37,716 Speaker 1: So they felt like they can curb that by offering them, 97 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:41,516 Speaker 1: you know, four year guaranteed. But if you fast forward 98 00:06:41,556 --> 00:06:46,516 Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy three, they went to one year renewable scholarships, right, 99 00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:50,636 Speaker 1: And how do you justify going from four years to 100 00:06:50,836 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 1: one year? Right? And so many you know who are 101 00:06:54,036 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 1: I would say critics of the NCAA would say, well, 102 00:06:56,756 --> 00:07:00,036 Speaker 1: you know, they defined amateurs and whatever way they want, 103 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,996 Speaker 1: whatever is in their own self interests, right, But this 104 00:07:03,076 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: one year renewable scholarship then says that you know, the 105 00:07:07,196 --> 00:07:11,516 Speaker 1: coach can non renew your scholarship for any reason. Right. 106 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:15,116 Speaker 1: You can have a four point o GPA, and just 107 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: because of the coach doesn't like your politics or doesn't 108 00:07:18,556 --> 00:07:20,756 Speaker 1: like the way you're performing on the field, you know, 109 00:07:20,876 --> 00:07:23,916 Speaker 1: you can lose that scholarship. So, so, what justifies the 110 00:07:24,116 --> 00:07:28,076 Speaker 1: change over time in scholarships when if the goal is 111 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:30,916 Speaker 1: to support athletes so that they can you know, matriculate 112 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,116 Speaker 1: and graduate and have some sort of support as they 113 00:07:34,156 --> 00:07:38,796 Speaker 1: go through their program of study, explain to me why 114 00:07:39,116 --> 00:07:42,476 Speaker 1: the nt double A as a kind of like collective 115 00:07:42,636 --> 00:07:46,836 Speaker 1: entity hasn't been broken by individual actors, Let's say colleges, 116 00:07:47,476 --> 00:07:51,356 Speaker 1: who would say, we can make more money and change 117 00:07:51,356 --> 00:07:53,596 Speaker 1: the situation by going out on our own. You know, 118 00:07:53,636 --> 00:07:55,396 Speaker 1: one of the leagues I don't know, the Big ten 119 00:07:55,596 --> 00:07:58,316 Speaker 1: or you name it, would say, well, we think we 120 00:07:58,316 --> 00:08:01,156 Speaker 1: can make more money by breaking away from the NCAA, 121 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:04,476 Speaker 1: doing it our own way, keeping television revenue and paying 122 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:08,316 Speaker 1: our players. You know, that's a good question, and I'm 123 00:08:08,356 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 1: just gonna trying to be as pragmatic as possible. When 124 00:08:11,716 --> 00:08:16,596 Speaker 1: you think about college sports a source of entertainment, an 125 00:08:16,596 --> 00:08:21,916 Speaker 1: opportunity to bring folks together for a common goal, perhaps 126 00:08:21,996 --> 00:08:24,876 Speaker 1: to win, to win a national championship, you see a 127 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:30,196 Speaker 1: lot of stakeholders that enjoy this entertainment and they understand 128 00:08:30,276 --> 00:08:32,796 Speaker 1: the beauty of that. And so then to push up 129 00:08:32,836 --> 00:08:37,676 Speaker 1: against something that has a history of bringing folks together, 130 00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:41,556 Speaker 1: whether you have lawmakers, legislators you know who are also 131 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 1: could potentially be pushing back on a model that you know, 132 00:08:46,676 --> 00:08:50,236 Speaker 1: many would argue as inequitable. I think the fact that 133 00:08:50,796 --> 00:08:53,516 Speaker 1: there's a source of entertainment has been part of our 134 00:08:53,596 --> 00:08:58,196 Speaker 1: history and legacy that is hard to disrupt that. The 135 00:08:58,316 --> 00:09:01,116 Speaker 1: other piece, which I think is probably a more compelling 136 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:06,636 Speaker 1: argument to make here, is that college athletes are very vulnerable. Right. 137 00:09:06,956 --> 00:09:11,556 Speaker 1: They don't have collective bargaining, they don't have the leverage 138 00:09:12,116 --> 00:09:15,676 Speaker 1: to really push back on a system that many would 139 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:18,156 Speaker 1: argue or not in their best interests. We saw in 140 00:09:18,196 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen at Northwestern University where Kane Coulter, the quarterback 141 00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 1: at the time, try to push to get athletes to 142 00:09:27,916 --> 00:09:31,516 Speaker 1: be able to bargain collectively, but that didn't play out 143 00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:35,756 Speaker 1: with the labor relations board. And we saw multiple times 144 00:09:35,956 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 1: during the pandemic where players because of they didn't feel 145 00:09:39,596 --> 00:09:42,116 Speaker 1: protected during the pandemic and trying to go out and 146 00:09:42,116 --> 00:09:45,756 Speaker 1: play football. You have many people rallying around that, but 147 00:09:45,796 --> 00:09:49,116 Speaker 1: they just don't have the power right to be able 148 00:09:49,156 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 1: to orchestrate something on a level that pushes back against 149 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:57,116 Speaker 1: a system that is not always in their best interests. 150 00:09:57,116 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: And so I see two things. You have many stakeholders 151 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:03,356 Speaker 1: that enjoy a sport in its current form and don't 152 00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 1: want to disrupt that. They like the status quo and 153 00:10:06,156 --> 00:10:08,796 Speaker 1: they want to perpetuate that on the backs of these 154 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:11,396 Speaker 1: vote athletes. And then the other piece too is the 155 00:10:11,716 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 1: lack of power, the lack of ability to really bargain 156 00:10:14,836 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 1: collectively for their own rights and well being. There are 157 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:22,836 Speaker 1: two key power elements there. One is if the athletes 158 00:10:22,876 --> 00:10:25,996 Speaker 1: had a union, they would be much more empowered to 159 00:10:26,076 --> 00:10:29,076 Speaker 1: act and I know you know you're not an union lawyer. 160 00:10:29,156 --> 00:10:32,396 Speaker 1: Neither am I, but what can you say about why 161 00:10:32,596 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 1: the National Labor Relations Board didn't say ultimately that athletes 162 00:10:37,276 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: should be able to unionize. I mean it's striking to me. 163 00:10:39,356 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: You know, I teach on a university like you do. 164 00:10:41,436 --> 00:10:46,356 Speaker 1: Graduate students have organized to unionize, not because they're playing sports, 165 00:10:46,396 --> 00:10:51,596 Speaker 1: but because they're teaching classes, and in general, the NLRB 166 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 1: has been relatively sympathetic. A lot of people on campus 167 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,116 Speaker 1: don't like that, but there they've been successful in many 168 00:10:57,116 --> 00:11:00,396 Speaker 1: instances of getting unions validated. And it seems to me 169 00:11:00,516 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 1: that there those graduate students have even less of an 170 00:11:02,836 --> 00:11:07,196 Speaker 1: argument for unionization than the athletes do because they're bringing 171 00:11:07,196 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 1: in so much revenue for the university and they're also 172 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,676 Speaker 1: being compensated. So I mean, as a matter of morality, justice, 173 00:11:12,676 --> 00:11:15,876 Speaker 1: and logic, it seems like student athletes should have a union. 174 00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:20,916 Speaker 1: So why don't they? Right? That's a good question, And 175 00:11:20,956 --> 00:11:25,476 Speaker 1: if we talk specifically about the case study of Northwestern 176 00:11:25,516 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, the Labor Relations Board actually punted on 177 00:11:31,036 --> 00:11:34,396 Speaker 1: this issue, and part of that is that they didn't 178 00:11:34,396 --> 00:11:37,236 Speaker 1: want to make a decision that's going to impact the 179 00:11:37,436 --> 00:11:41,396 Speaker 1: entire landscape of college athletics. The argument has been one, right, 180 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:45,236 Speaker 1: like Northwestern is a private school, right, so they have 181 00:11:45,276 --> 00:11:49,276 Speaker 1: a little bit more autonomy and flexibility than perhaps the 182 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:53,836 Speaker 1: public school. So so if this was enacted, this would 183 00:11:53,876 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 1: apply to Northwestern, but not necessarily say UCLA Public University. 184 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:01,996 Speaker 1: And so the argument for many, particularly the NCAA, has 185 00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:05,756 Speaker 1: always been this imbalanced, this competitive equity issue, that if 186 00:12:05,796 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 1: we allow an opportunity for Northwestern embarking collectively, what about 187 00:12:10,276 --> 00:12:14,316 Speaker 1: those other schools? Would there be parody in college sports? Well, 188 00:12:15,316 --> 00:12:18,836 Speaker 1: part of that argument, you know, around competitive equity, has 189 00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:22,836 Speaker 1: already been debunked. Right when we think about recruiting, there 190 00:12:22,916 --> 00:12:26,636 Speaker 1: is no competitive equity, particularly in Division one school. I 191 00:12:26,756 --> 00:12:29,596 Speaker 1: was just reading how the University of Georgia spent four 192 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:33,596 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars on recruiting four a week. Part of 193 00:12:33,596 --> 00:12:36,756 Speaker 1: that was private jets and a number of coaches that 194 00:12:36,796 --> 00:12:39,556 Speaker 1: actually went to help with that recruiting process. If you 195 00:12:39,556 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 1: look at a Division in one school where I'm at, 196 00:12:41,516 --> 00:12:47,316 Speaker 1: you see Riverside, you know we're probably not flying private jets, 197 00:12:48,596 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 1: perhaps using a buddy pass on Southwest, and so it's 198 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:54,236 Speaker 1: not there is no competitive equity when you look at 199 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 1: the amount of money that's made at Alabama, you know, 200 00:12:56,916 --> 00:12:59,236 Speaker 1: where they may have a budget of over two hundred 201 00:12:59,236 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: million dollars and other universities might be around seventeen million dollars. 202 00:13:03,676 --> 00:13:06,236 Speaker 1: So it doesn't add up. So, you know, I think 203 00:13:06,276 --> 00:13:08,836 Speaker 1: part of that is the punt because they didn't want 204 00:13:08,836 --> 00:13:12,596 Speaker 1: to be responsible for the changes in college athletics. But 205 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: the other piece, you know, I'm excited, Noah about the 206 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:21,916 Speaker 1: fact that there are sort of this movement toward better 207 00:13:21,956 --> 00:13:24,916 Speaker 1: equity among athletes where they were talking about the nil 208 00:13:25,196 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 1: conversations that's playing out right now. You saw what happened 209 00:13:29,276 --> 00:13:31,596 Speaker 1: with the Pac twelve conference where a lot of players 210 00:13:32,196 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 1: were pushing back on the lack of protections during a pandemic, 211 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:40,796 Speaker 1: And what was the motivation behind actually having these players 212 00:13:40,836 --> 00:13:43,596 Speaker 1: come out and play. Was it all driven by the 213 00:13:43,676 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: potential losses that might play out if the season didn't ensue. 214 00:13:47,676 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 1: So these are the kinds of things I'm thinking about. 215 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:53,356 Speaker 1: So I'm on the one hand, optimistic that we can 216 00:13:53,396 --> 00:13:56,716 Speaker 1: move in at directed, but I'm also understanding where folks 217 00:13:57,076 --> 00:14:01,236 Speaker 1: would prefer the status quo because they think that changes 218 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:06,236 Speaker 1: might disrupt that sort of ethos of college athletics. I 219 00:14:06,316 --> 00:14:08,356 Speaker 1: want to ask one more power question, but before I do, 220 00:14:08,396 --> 00:14:10,396 Speaker 1: I just want to ask you to unpack for for 221 00:14:10,476 --> 00:14:13,876 Speaker 1: listeners the name image likeness issue. You were talking about, 222 00:14:13,876 --> 00:14:18,396 Speaker 1: the NIL issue in case folks don't know what that is. Yes, So, name, 223 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:21,836 Speaker 1: image and likeness. If you're a student, a non athlete student, 224 00:14:22,316 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 1: and you come up with a novel idea you can 225 00:14:25,996 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 1: get you can be compensated for it. There's no guardrails, 226 00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:33,476 Speaker 1: there's there's no caps in terms of how much money 227 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:36,796 Speaker 1: you can monetize your name, image and likeness. But but 228 00:14:36,916 --> 00:14:40,116 Speaker 1: the athletes can't. Right. This is actually part of case 229 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: law and we can go back to O'Bannon versus the NCAA, 230 00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:50,316 Speaker 1: which was a class action antitrust lawsuit where Ed O'Bannon, 231 00:14:50,436 --> 00:14:54,916 Speaker 1: a former All American basketball player, charged at the NCAA 232 00:14:55,036 --> 00:14:59,396 Speaker 1: violated the Sherman Act by using athletes image and likeness 233 00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:03,356 Speaker 1: in live game broadcasts and video games while not allowing 234 00:15:03,396 --> 00:15:06,236 Speaker 1: them to receive a share of that revenue. And so, 235 00:15:06,516 --> 00:15:10,036 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, In about June of twenty fourteen, 236 00:15:10,156 --> 00:15:15,276 Speaker 1: Judge Wilkins concluded that the NCAA amateurism rules as it 237 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 1: was written at the time, were more restrictive than necessary 238 00:15:19,676 --> 00:15:22,516 Speaker 1: and in violated the Sherman Acts. As a result of that, 239 00:15:22,596 --> 00:15:27,356 Speaker 1: the ruling required the NCAA to permit member institutions to 240 00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 1: compensate athletes up to the cost of attendance, which was 241 00:15:30,436 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 1: about five thousand dollars per year in deferred payments for 242 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:37,756 Speaker 1: the commercial use of their name, image, and likeness. Of course, 243 00:15:37,836 --> 00:15:42,116 Speaker 1: the NCAA appealed that verdict in the US Court of 244 00:15:42,156 --> 00:15:45,276 Speaker 1: Appeals of the Nice Circuit, and then in December of 245 00:15:45,356 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen allowed athletes the full cost of attending college, 246 00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:55,036 Speaker 1: and again that was around five thousand dollars. So the 247 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:59,956 Speaker 1: point here is that although athletes can't be paid unlimited 248 00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:03,516 Speaker 1: amounts of money if they are seen in video games 249 00:16:03,516 --> 00:16:06,116 Speaker 1: for their name, image, and likeness, the judge did rule 250 00:16:06,996 --> 00:16:12,836 Speaker 1: that for educational purpose or educational expenses, they can receive 251 00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:15,796 Speaker 1: up to five thousand dollars. And then, of course we 252 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: see now ongoing litigation about name, image and likeness of California, 253 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:27,396 Speaker 1: the first state to sign into law name Image and Likeness, 254 00:16:27,396 --> 00:16:30,836 Speaker 1: which would allow players to be paid for their name, 255 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: image and likeness. Starting in twenty twenty three, Florida will 256 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:38,396 Speaker 1: actually be the first state that will allow players to 257 00:16:38,436 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 1: be paid for their name, image, and likeness, and starting 258 00:16:41,676 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 1: July one of twenty twenty one. And so now an 259 00:16:44,956 --> 00:16:49,716 Speaker 1: athlete can go to their local high school and run 260 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: a camp for youth and be paid for it. Now 261 00:16:52,836 --> 00:16:56,476 Speaker 1: a player can go out and sign autographs and be 262 00:16:56,556 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 1: paid for their name, image, or likeness. And this is 263 00:17:00,076 --> 00:17:04,316 Speaker 1: something that over a dozen states now are moving forward 264 00:17:04,436 --> 00:17:09,556 Speaker 1: with legislation, while at the same time, the nca and 265 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:14,036 Speaker 1: member institutions are pulling together a work group to figure 266 00:17:14,076 --> 00:17:17,316 Speaker 1: out if they can come up with a uniform policy. 267 00:17:17,876 --> 00:17:19,716 Speaker 1: And then this goes back to what I said. Their 268 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 1: argument is this, if California and Florida, in a handful 269 00:17:23,836 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: of other states are allowed athletes to be paid for 270 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 1: their name, image, and enlightness, it would lead to competitive 271 00:17:32,396 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 1: inequities or imbalance of power. So they feel like it's 272 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 1: in their best interest to come up with new policy 273 00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:43,996 Speaker 1: that uniform before these new states roll out their new legislation. 274 00:17:44,236 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 1: But there's also, you know, concern and I'm not sure 275 00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:49,836 Speaker 1: if this is more of a bark than a bite, 276 00:17:49,876 --> 00:17:53,196 Speaker 1: but the NCAA said, if these states do move forward, 277 00:17:53,556 --> 00:17:57,396 Speaker 1: they'll be ineligible for competition. Now, that brings us to 278 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:00,436 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court case, which is before the Supreme Court 279 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 1: right now, and which we'll get a decision this year. 280 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:07,236 Speaker 1: Usually by the end of June is the traditional decision 281 00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:09,956 Speaker 1: time for the hardest cases, although last year it went 282 00:18:09,996 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 1: into July because of COVID. What's your take on that case? 283 00:18:14,356 --> 00:18:17,396 Speaker 1: And to start with, just to remind listeners or for 284 00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 1: those who haven't been following it so closely, what's at 285 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:24,236 Speaker 1: stake there? I mean, that's an antitrust challenge to the 286 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 1: whole practice of the NCAA prohibiting cash related or cash 287 00:18:29,596 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 1: similar benefits to be given to athletes, right, I mean 288 00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:36,876 Speaker 1: if they if the Supreme Court were to uphold the 289 00:18:37,156 --> 00:18:39,596 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals there, how radical a change would we 290 00:18:39,676 --> 00:18:44,916 Speaker 1: be likely to see? So, you know, again, if we 291 00:18:44,996 --> 00:18:49,156 Speaker 1: think about the structural arrangement of college athletics, there are 292 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:53,396 Speaker 1: many people who benefit quite hansily from the enterprise coaches, 293 00:18:53,476 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: athletic directors, conference commissioners, sponsors, TV contracts, CBS, turner sports 294 00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:04,596 Speaker 1: on the backs of athletes. So I don't actually see 295 00:19:04,596 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: this as a radical change in an institution of higher 296 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:10,916 Speaker 1: learning where athletes are putting their lives on the line 297 00:19:11,316 --> 00:19:15,716 Speaker 1: risking injury, right, spending a disproportionate amount of time on 298 00:19:15,756 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: their sport at the expense of their educational pursuit. You know, 299 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 1: there are studies that suggested athletes spend more than fifty 300 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 1: hours a week on sport related activities, not to mention 301 00:19:25,436 --> 00:19:29,116 Speaker 1: the mental fatigue, the physical exhaustion, the nagging injuries that 302 00:19:29,156 --> 00:19:32,356 Speaker 1: are accompanied with those who participate in sport. To now 303 00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 1: have into law or to think about allowing more educational 304 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: benefits for athletes. So if they want to pursue an 305 00:19:42,676 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: internship and they need to be funded for that opportunity, 306 00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:51,916 Speaker 1: there's a chance with this new legislation that that could happen. Right. 307 00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:54,556 Speaker 1: There's also opportunities that if you wanted to go to 308 00:19:54,556 --> 00:19:59,516 Speaker 1: professional or graduate school, these schools, these member institutions can 309 00:19:59,636 --> 00:20:03,556 Speaker 1: provide sort of an escrow account at the end of 310 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: their eligibility. So this is not just giving payments to athletes. 311 00:20:08,116 --> 00:20:12,956 Speaker 1: This isn't incentive for the academic success, right, So I 312 00:20:13,276 --> 00:20:18,836 Speaker 1: can get behind opportunities that tie to their academic goals 313 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:22,276 Speaker 1: and obligation in the institute of higher learning. I'm not 314 00:20:22,356 --> 00:20:25,516 Speaker 1: at all just in favor of just paying athletes just 315 00:20:25,596 --> 00:20:28,756 Speaker 1: to pay them right. I do feel like there should 316 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:30,836 Speaker 1: be some structure in place. There should be some at 317 00:20:30,916 --> 00:20:35,756 Speaker 1: timing for these individual institutions to decide what that formula 318 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: might look like, what that might look like in practice, 319 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:41,556 Speaker 1: and so I think it would be a shift. It 320 00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 1: would be actually a sea change if, in fact, you know, 321 00:20:45,756 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court upholds the plaintiffs in this case, Austin 322 00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:54,236 Speaker 1: to allow those educational benefits something beyond you know, I 323 00:20:54,276 --> 00:20:57,436 Speaker 1: think right now we're talking five nine hundred and eighty 324 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 1: dollars to be exact, but to exceed that number, which 325 00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 1: I think was arbitrary to begin with. To be able 326 00:21:04,116 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: to exceed that and have something at the end of eligibility, 327 00:21:07,316 --> 00:21:10,836 Speaker 1: I think would be a nice gesture on the part 328 00:21:10,996 --> 00:21:14,596 Speaker 1: of the Supreme Court to really support these athletes and 329 00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:18,276 Speaker 1: they're going through, you know, a very rigorous program and 330 00:21:18,436 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 1: also trying to balance their athletics. You mentioned along the way, 331 00:21:23,036 --> 00:21:25,436 Speaker 1: there's something that I think a lot of casual fans 332 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:27,756 Speaker 1: don't know that a lot of athletes will put in 333 00:21:27,876 --> 00:21:30,756 Speaker 1: up to fifty hours a week or more on their 334 00:21:30,836 --> 00:21:34,276 Speaker 1: sports while they're going to college full time. At the 335 00:21:34,316 --> 00:21:37,356 Speaker 1: same time, I remember very vividly the first time I 336 00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: learned about that. It was when I met Corey Booker 337 00:21:40,316 --> 00:21:42,356 Speaker 1: back when we were, you know, each in our early 338 00:21:42,396 --> 00:21:45,676 Speaker 1: twenties to write out of college, and he was describing 339 00:21:45,716 --> 00:21:47,836 Speaker 1: to me how he discovered that he was a really 340 00:21:47,836 --> 00:21:50,316 Speaker 1: good student, and he said it was because when he 341 00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:52,556 Speaker 1: was recruited to Stanford, he was red shirted as a freshman, 342 00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 1: he played football, and then there was a new coach 343 00:21:55,716 --> 00:21:57,556 Speaker 1: who came in and what would have been his fifth year, 344 00:21:57,796 --> 00:22:00,196 Speaker 1: and the coach didn't believe in red shirting, so he 345 00:22:00,316 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 1: lost the year of eligibility that he still had available 346 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:05,196 Speaker 1: to him. And he said, I was really upset about it, 347 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 1: and you know, Corey was also I think the student 348 00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:09,316 Speaker 1: body president. He went and met the president of Stanford 349 00:22:09,356 --> 00:22:11,116 Speaker 1: and said, you know what's going on here? I really 350 00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:14,636 Speaker 1: want to play and the coach was really firm about it. 351 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:16,516 Speaker 1: And so Corey said, for the first time in my 352 00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,236 Speaker 1: college career, I didn't have to spend fifty hours a 353 00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:22,956 Speaker 1: week doing football. And it turned out I was really 354 00:22:22,996 --> 00:22:25,476 Speaker 1: good at school, and I was really proud of how 355 00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:27,836 Speaker 1: well I was doing. Suddenly, and I was like, wait 356 00:22:27,876 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 1: a minute, how many hours a week did you spend 357 00:22:29,716 --> 00:22:31,996 Speaker 1: on football? I just I was just blown away by it. 358 00:22:32,036 --> 00:22:36,436 Speaker 1: I mean, lots of us have part time jobs in college, 359 00:22:36,476 --> 00:22:38,356 Speaker 1: but the idea of working a full time or more 360 00:22:38,356 --> 00:22:42,476 Speaker 1: than full time job that is profoundly physically exhausting and 361 00:22:42,516 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 1: then going to college just suggests to me the absurdity 362 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 1: of the idea that there is amateurism of any kind here. 363 00:22:50,036 --> 00:22:55,076 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a full time job coupled with educational attainment. 364 00:22:55,196 --> 00:22:58,356 Speaker 1: And I guess what I'm wondering about that is, how 365 00:22:58,356 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 1: can the NCTIA get away with the story that they 366 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 1: are quote unquote giving an education when the students have 367 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:10,036 Speaker 1: to get their education in the what time is left 368 00:23:10,076 --> 00:23:12,676 Speaker 1: to them after performing a full time job. It just 369 00:23:12,716 --> 00:23:17,476 Speaker 1: seems so outrageous when you hear that number, right, And 370 00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:19,476 Speaker 1: the question for me is how do you strike a 371 00:23:19,556 --> 00:23:23,396 Speaker 1: healthy balance between academics and athletics. I have a huge 372 00:23:23,516 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 1: problem with the fact that because of this arrangement of 373 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:31,116 Speaker 1: college athletics and the sort of demands from the coaches, 374 00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 1: the demands from playing, the fact that you now have 375 00:23:34,996 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 1: a conference realignment where schools are realigning to conferences because 376 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:43,116 Speaker 1: they can think they can get bigger TV contracts, and 377 00:23:43,156 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 1: with those bigger TV contracts, schools are likely to travel 378 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:52,276 Speaker 1: greater distances. When you're traveling greater distances, it's likely that 379 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 1: those players will spend less time in the classroom. Right, 380 00:23:55,516 --> 00:23:59,196 Speaker 1: So we're now seeing this real push towards sort of 381 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:03,156 Speaker 1: their athletics at the expense of their academics. And then 382 00:24:03,316 --> 00:24:06,756 Speaker 1: just even thinking about majors, right, Like many athletes are 383 00:24:06,796 --> 00:24:10,396 Speaker 1: pursuing majors that aren't even aligned with their career interests 384 00:24:10,436 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 1: just so that they can maintain their eligibility, right, And 385 00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:17,076 Speaker 1: so the structure is not working at all. And then 386 00:24:17,116 --> 00:24:19,476 Speaker 1: when you think about the sort of the propaganda that 387 00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:22,436 Speaker 1: plays out, well, you know, most athletes will go pro 388 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 1: and things other than sport, right, and athletes are graduating 389 00:24:27,356 --> 00:24:31,156 Speaker 1: at a higher clip than their non athlete peers. But 390 00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:37,916 Speaker 1: if you disaggregate, right, those athletes in revenue generating sports, 391 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:42,356 Speaker 1: and then you disaggregate by race ethnicity, right where there's 392 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:48,316 Speaker 1: a heavy concentration of specifically black athletes, their graduation rates 393 00:24:48,556 --> 00:24:53,636 Speaker 1: are hovering around fifty five, right, And that's the federal 394 00:24:53,676 --> 00:24:59,836 Speaker 1: graduation rates, right, And that's that's disappointing, particularly when we 395 00:24:59,916 --> 00:25:04,196 Speaker 1: think about how black black students make up about three 396 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 1: percent of colleges and universities, Yet they make up over 397 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:12,596 Speaker 1: fifty p scent of those who are dribbling basketballs or 398 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:17,556 Speaker 1: trying to catch a football right. That to me is disturbing. 399 00:25:18,756 --> 00:25:22,516 Speaker 1: And so if we believe that the model in its 400 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:28,116 Speaker 1: current form is working well, as some probably believe, they 401 00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:30,676 Speaker 1: think that the system is working the way it's supposed 402 00:25:30,716 --> 00:25:34,716 Speaker 1: to work, that if we continue to define amateurism and 403 00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 1: our own self interests, perhaps maybe we convince the stakeholders 404 00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:44,436 Speaker 1: who enjoy this sport that somehow we should figure out 405 00:25:44,436 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 1: how to sustain it and not tear it down or 406 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:50,236 Speaker 1: burn it up or blow it up right, or reimagine 407 00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 1: a different structure that allows athletes to identify majors that 408 00:25:55,196 --> 00:25:58,756 Speaker 1: align with their interests, that allow them time in a classroom, 409 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:02,436 Speaker 1: that allow them to do internships in the off seasons 410 00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:06,076 Speaker 1: or during the summer time that better positions them for 411 00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 1: life once the music stops playing. Those the kinds of 412 00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:11,676 Speaker 1: things that I'm thinking about, And I'm not sure this 413 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:17,836 Speaker 1: current model, where we have increasingly commercialization of sport, where 414 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:22,036 Speaker 1: there are different stakeholders in power that are making the 415 00:26:22,156 --> 00:26:26,676 Speaker 1: rules right, You're not necessarily going to get a fair 416 00:26:26,756 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: process right because somehow to magically think that those who 417 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:36,876 Speaker 1: are making the money and profiting will somehow say, you 418 00:26:36,916 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 1: know what, this should be a fair model. I should 419 00:26:39,236 --> 00:26:41,956 Speaker 1: begin to share the pie. I should thinking more about 420 00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 1: a more equitable approach to this. I'm not sure that 421 00:26:45,036 --> 00:26:48,116 Speaker 1: that's buying out. That's why you see advocates of athletes 422 00:26:48,156 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 1: pushing back. That's why you see some athletes coming out. 423 00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:56,316 Speaker 1: And that's the thing too. Noa that many of these athletes, 424 00:26:56,996 --> 00:27:01,756 Speaker 1: particularly in revenue sports, are low income, first generation athletes. 425 00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:05,116 Speaker 1: To ask them to say why not boycott? Why not 426 00:27:05,196 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: play today? That's just not a fair question. You know. 427 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:11,276 Speaker 1: The question for me is goes back to the power 428 00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:14,356 Speaker 1: question you begin You started out with, how can those 429 00:27:14,436 --> 00:27:20,796 Speaker 1: empower reimagine a different structure? How do those empower relinquish 430 00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: some of that power? Right to then say we need 431 00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:27,076 Speaker 1: a fairer model in place. Right, those are the kinds 432 00:27:27,076 --> 00:27:30,436 Speaker 1: of questions we should be asking rather than saying, well, 433 00:27:30,676 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 1: athletes have the power, they should stop playing. No, it's 434 00:27:32,996 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 1: not their responsibility. Yes they can play a role, but 435 00:27:36,236 --> 00:27:39,316 Speaker 1: I'm not expecting them to be Muhammad Ali. I'm not 436 00:27:39,356 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: expecting them to be a Colin Kaepernick. Right, they shouldn't 437 00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:48,036 Speaker 1: have to be right, they're seventeen eighteen nineteen. I think 438 00:27:48,036 --> 00:27:50,756 Speaker 1: they're courageous for what they have done thus far. But 439 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 1: I think that if we can push back on those 440 00:27:53,716 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 1: who are actually benefiting in questioning that model, I think 441 00:27:57,196 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: that would be a better approach than simply putting the 442 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:14,236 Speaker 1: onus on the athlete, we'll be right back. I want 443 00:28:14,236 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 1: to get to the how we should reimagine this, But 444 00:28:16,876 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: in order to do that, we have to, I think 445 00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 1: dive into two more elements of the power structure here 446 00:28:22,596 --> 00:28:25,036 Speaker 1: that we've touched on but haven't really but you've written 447 00:28:25,036 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 1: a lot about. One is the question of race, because 448 00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:30,156 Speaker 1: when we talk about power in the United States, race 449 00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:32,156 Speaker 1: is almost always hanging out somewhere in the background and 450 00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:34,596 Speaker 1: sometimes in the foreground, and in this case it's really 451 00:28:34,596 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 1: important to get it on the table. And the second 452 00:28:37,276 --> 00:28:40,996 Speaker 1: is capitalism, also always present when we talk about power 453 00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:42,596 Speaker 1: in the United States. So let's try to not that 454 00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:44,396 Speaker 1: they can be fully separated, but let's take them one 455 00:28:44,396 --> 00:28:47,116 Speaker 1: at a time, and then from there we can make 456 00:28:47,116 --> 00:28:49,956 Speaker 1: our way to what could change. Realistically, they would make 457 00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:53,156 Speaker 1: this a better system. So start with race. You mentioned 458 00:28:53,356 --> 00:28:58,156 Speaker 1: national graduation averages, but at a deeper level, even beyond 459 00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:01,356 Speaker 1: the graduation averages. What does it mean for this whole 460 00:29:01,396 --> 00:29:03,876 Speaker 1: system and structure that, as you were saying, something like 461 00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:08,036 Speaker 1: half of the people who are playing the big ticket 462 00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:13,596 Speaker 1: sports in American universities are African Americans. Yes, and so 463 00:29:14,636 --> 00:29:17,596 Speaker 1: you know, part of part of as I think about 464 00:29:17,636 --> 00:29:23,156 Speaker 1: again this structural arrangement of college athletics is who benefits 465 00:29:23,196 --> 00:29:27,396 Speaker 1: who benefits from this athletic enterprise. When we think about, 466 00:29:27,596 --> 00:29:30,956 Speaker 1: you know, the percentage of white head coaches in basketball 467 00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:34,236 Speaker 1: and even in football, um, and then the number of 468 00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:38,116 Speaker 1: black athletes that are actually playing that sport, right, it 469 00:29:38,156 --> 00:29:41,836 Speaker 1: doesn't add up when we when we when we think 470 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: about this sort of racial analysis of college sport. Why 471 00:29:45,236 --> 00:29:48,556 Speaker 1: is it that you have disproportionate number of black athletes 472 00:29:48,596 --> 00:29:54,156 Speaker 1: playing football, but the overwhelming majority of basketball coaches are white? Right? 473 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:58,356 Speaker 1: Why is it that the overwhelming majority of those in 474 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:03,116 Speaker 1: senior leadership position, whether it's conference commissioners or even presidents 475 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:07,156 Speaker 1: of colleges and universities are white? Right? And when you 476 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:10,156 Speaker 1: think about the actual labor, when you think about the 477 00:30:10,196 --> 00:30:13,276 Speaker 1: amount of revenue that you generated, they're not there to 478 00:30:13,396 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 1: see the coach, They're not there to see the commissioners, 479 00:30:17,356 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 1: there's there to see these prize recruits, and so on 480 00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:26,996 Speaker 1: some level, Noah, I see athletes viewed as property, disposable property. 481 00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:30,356 Speaker 1: So the fact that you bring more than fifty percent 482 00:30:30,396 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 1: of athletes in to play football and basketball, but only 483 00:30:33,596 --> 00:30:37,916 Speaker 1: roughly three percent are part of our non athlete peers 484 00:30:37,996 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 1: that happen to be black, that says something about how 485 00:30:41,636 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: you view black bodies as somehow a commodity as long 486 00:30:46,276 --> 00:30:50,236 Speaker 1: as they remain eligible. But once their eligibility ends, and 487 00:30:50,356 --> 00:30:53,116 Speaker 1: we can see this playing out with graduation rates, that 488 00:30:53,236 --> 00:30:56,516 Speaker 1: somehow they're they're they're disposable, they're no longer wanted. And 489 00:30:56,556 --> 00:31:00,956 Speaker 1: so I see that as deeply disturbing as I think 490 00:31:00,996 --> 00:31:04,916 Speaker 1: about this, this this structural arrangement, and to what extent 491 00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:09,436 Speaker 1: are we moving in a direction where we're actually trying 492 00:31:09,476 --> 00:31:12,236 Speaker 1: to have the next Corey Booker, trying to have the 493 00:31:12,356 --> 00:31:16,076 Speaker 1: next athlete who's able to balance both their academics and athletics. 494 00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:21,396 Speaker 1: And too often, unfortunately, whether it's anecdotally or through evidence, 495 00:31:21,956 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: is that these athletes position themselves and do a lot 496 00:31:25,716 --> 00:31:29,516 Speaker 1: for the university and invest in a university, but too 497 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:33,916 Speaker 1: often the university doesn't have the capacity to love them back. 498 00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:37,356 Speaker 1: So it would one way to address this, not to 499 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:39,476 Speaker 1: fix it, but to address it, be to say that 500 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:43,836 Speaker 1: when an athletic scholarship is granted, you have to, if 501 00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:48,276 Speaker 1: you're the university, pay for that students full four years 502 00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:51,476 Speaker 1: of education or even more if it takes longer to graduate, 503 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:54,636 Speaker 1: regardless of whether the person continues to serve as an athlete. 504 00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:57,836 Speaker 1: Would that at least begin the process of making the 505 00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:01,116 Speaker 1: university think of its recruited athletes as people rather than 506 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:04,676 Speaker 1: as as you say, bodies, particularly black bodies, who can 507 00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 1: be abandoned if they're no longer producing the labor that 508 00:32:08,156 --> 00:32:11,596 Speaker 1: the university wants too. I would even take a step 509 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:15,236 Speaker 1: back and actually think about, you know, the history of 510 00:32:15,276 --> 00:32:20,116 Speaker 1: college athletics and how athletes, particularly black athletes, are brought 511 00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:26,156 Speaker 1: into the enterprise and use for their athletic abilities, and 512 00:32:26,196 --> 00:32:32,316 Speaker 1: then the output is oftentimes a life where they're not 513 00:32:32,476 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 1: well positioned for contributing to the greater good their communities, 514 00:32:38,516 --> 00:32:42,596 Speaker 1: preparing themselves for professional or graduate school. And there's something 515 00:32:42,676 --> 00:32:48,956 Speaker 1: to say about the ways or how black athletes are 516 00:32:48,996 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 1: brought into the system and then pushed out of the 517 00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:58,596 Speaker 1: system prioritizing their humanity of who they are right, I 518 00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:01,476 Speaker 1: don't think it's value to the extent that it should. 519 00:33:01,996 --> 00:33:08,996 Speaker 1: Too often I see them as inferior intellectually, but somehow 520 00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:14,516 Speaker 1: being able to benefit them athletically. And this is what 521 00:33:14,796 --> 00:33:20,316 Speaker 1: many you know, Afro pessimist scholars would label as anti blackness, 522 00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:26,476 Speaker 1: right where they don't see the full humanity of these individuals, 523 00:33:26,516 --> 00:33:30,116 Speaker 1: they see them as subhuman. So I think, first and foremost, 524 00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:34,356 Speaker 1: if we're going to recruit black athletes, if we're going 525 00:33:34,436 --> 00:33:37,956 Speaker 1: to bring them into our institutions, they have to see 526 00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:41,396 Speaker 1: their full humanity. They have to see them as both 527 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,556 Speaker 1: gifted and talented on the field of court and in 528 00:33:44,596 --> 00:33:49,516 Speaker 1: the classroom and start from that vantage point. Otherwise will 529 00:33:49,556 --> 00:33:53,276 Speaker 1: continue to see this sort of perpetuation of athletes and 530 00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:58,596 Speaker 1: this you know, being seen as commodities and eventually disposable. 531 00:33:58,916 --> 00:34:01,756 Speaker 1: So that's one the other piece too. Yes, I agree 532 00:34:02,116 --> 00:34:06,036 Speaker 1: that if we can ensure that athletes have a four 533 00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:09,796 Speaker 1: year guarantee scholarship right where they know that they're not 534 00:34:09,876 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 1: at the mercy of their coach, where they don't have 535 00:34:12,836 --> 00:34:15,596 Speaker 1: to miss a study group because the coach wants them 536 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:18,596 Speaker 1: to spend extra hours on the field of court, and 537 00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:22,316 Speaker 1: if they don't add adhere to the coach's demands that 538 00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:26,396 Speaker 1: somehow they could be subject to terminating their scholarship or 539 00:34:26,396 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 1: non renewal of their scholarship at the end of the year. 540 00:34:28,996 --> 00:34:31,996 Speaker 1: So I think that's that's a good starting point. But 541 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:34,996 Speaker 1: also seeing them as human, of course, it is really 542 00:34:35,516 --> 00:34:39,316 Speaker 1: important part of this entire longitudinal process that's playing out. 543 00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:41,996 Speaker 1: This is not as forced, right, this is reflective of 544 00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:45,796 Speaker 1: larger society, So I'm not I think there's added layers 545 00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 1: to be a black athlete than a black non athlete 546 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:53,196 Speaker 1: student because of the exploit of structural arrangement in which 547 00:34:53,236 --> 00:34:56,796 Speaker 1: they're situated. But I also see, you know, black people 548 00:34:57,076 --> 00:35:01,476 Speaker 1: generally being seen as fully humans as a good starting point. 549 00:35:02,316 --> 00:35:07,076 Speaker 1: I'm very influenced by the Afro pessimism school of thought, 550 00:35:07,596 --> 00:35:11,036 Speaker 1: though it also always makes me nervous because its conclusions 551 00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:15,236 Speaker 1: are as by definition, pessimistic about the possibility of change. 552 00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:18,436 Speaker 1: What about a thought that sometimes occurs to me when 553 00:35:18,436 --> 00:35:20,876 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about this, which is maybe do it you 554 00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:22,836 Speaker 1: know the British way? You know, I mean Oxford and 555 00:35:22,876 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 1: Cambridge have organized school sports. They're all done by student groups. 556 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:30,756 Speaker 1: It's all student organized, in student led The students hire 557 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:36,276 Speaker 1: and fire the coaches, and there's zero athletic recruiting none, 558 00:35:36,516 --> 00:35:38,356 Speaker 1: there's no recruiting at all. Anyone who's going to be 559 00:35:38,396 --> 00:35:41,676 Speaker 1: a student athlete has to already be admitted to the 560 00:35:41,836 --> 00:35:44,396 Speaker 1: university and to the college that they go to on 561 00:35:44,436 --> 00:35:46,756 Speaker 1: academic grounds, and some of them turn out to be 562 00:35:46,796 --> 00:35:50,996 Speaker 1: good athletes, and then they organize themselves into into teams 563 00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:53,996 Speaker 1: and they hire and fire the coaches. That's a radical, 564 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:57,476 Speaker 1: radical difference from the way we do it in the US. 565 00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:01,276 Speaker 1: What do you think the about that idea and what 566 00:36:01,316 --> 00:36:03,596 Speaker 1: would the racial fallout of that kind of a model 567 00:36:03,836 --> 00:36:09,716 Speaker 1: look like. Well, in this sort of capitalism that's played 568 00:36:09,716 --> 00:36:13,196 Speaker 1: out where where everyone sees a quest for the almighty dollar, 569 00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:16,316 Speaker 1: you know, is that realistic to think that we can 570 00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 1: have a system that's not predicated on how much money 571 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:23,476 Speaker 1: that you can generate, or how much money that you 572 00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:28,076 Speaker 1: can pay a celebrity coach and other externalities. I'm not 573 00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:32,796 Speaker 1: sure in sort of this neoliberal rule that we can 574 00:36:32,836 --> 00:36:37,796 Speaker 1: go back to a model where revenue is not central 575 00:36:39,156 --> 00:36:43,876 Speaker 1: to the overall operation of that enterprise. I certainly know 576 00:36:44,236 --> 00:36:50,956 Speaker 1: what to reimagine a structure that's fair, that fairly compensates 577 00:36:51,876 --> 00:36:57,036 Speaker 1: the athletes not only for their labor, but also to 578 00:36:57,076 --> 00:37:03,396 Speaker 1: reimburse them educationally, medically, and otherwise. I don't necessarily think 579 00:37:03,436 --> 00:37:07,156 Speaker 1: that they get an opportunity to engage purposely in the 580 00:37:07,196 --> 00:37:12,116 Speaker 1: broader academic community because they're confined to the athletic department 581 00:37:12,476 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 1: so often, so frequently, and so that you know, does 582 00:37:16,756 --> 00:37:22,556 Speaker 1: hinder their progress, that does hinder the opportunity to position 583 00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:26,316 Speaker 1: them for life after sport and have quantity career transition. 584 00:37:26,396 --> 00:37:29,956 Speaker 1: I just finished up a study looking at the career 585 00:37:29,996 --> 00:37:36,476 Speaker 1: transition of black athletes. And you know, although these you know, 586 00:37:36,596 --> 00:37:42,196 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar facilities that they have, they mentioned they acknowledge that, yes, 587 00:37:42,596 --> 00:37:46,036 Speaker 1: we have all these computers, we have one on one tutoring, 588 00:37:46,636 --> 00:37:51,636 Speaker 1: we have you know, access to workshops, but because of 589 00:37:51,676 --> 00:37:54,796 Speaker 1: the demands of our sports, we don't really get to 590 00:37:54,836 --> 00:37:58,636 Speaker 1: take advantage of this. And it was a retrospective study, 591 00:37:58,676 --> 00:38:01,996 Speaker 1: so I was interviewing them after they've already completed their 592 00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:05,476 Speaker 1: eligibility and have moved on to preparing for the Olympics. 593 00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:08,676 Speaker 1: Some of them have gone on to become first responders. 594 00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:12,036 Speaker 1: Of them are doing academic advisings for athletes, some of 595 00:38:12,036 --> 00:38:14,596 Speaker 1: them are teaching, some of them are working in nonprofits. 596 00:38:14,636 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: But in hindsight, they're like, yes, yes, it was available, 597 00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:21,596 Speaker 1: but the structural arrangement didn't really allow me to take 598 00:38:21,636 --> 00:38:25,716 Speaker 1: full advantage of these resources. I wish somebody would have said, hey, 599 00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:28,996 Speaker 1: here's the bigger picture, here's the long view. If you 600 00:38:29,076 --> 00:38:32,556 Speaker 1: start to do this now while you're participating in your sport, 601 00:38:32,876 --> 00:38:36,356 Speaker 1: you expand your networks, they'll be likely better earning potentials 602 00:38:36,396 --> 00:38:39,196 Speaker 1: down the road. But they think about that. It's not like, 603 00:38:39,316 --> 00:38:41,676 Speaker 1: you know, these are gifted and talent. So they they're 604 00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,156 Speaker 1: adjusting now right, they're gonna be okay, they're gonna be successful. 605 00:38:45,676 --> 00:38:48,276 Speaker 1: But had they been told that, you know, three or 606 00:38:48,316 --> 00:38:52,116 Speaker 1: four years earlier, there might be more options for them. 607 00:38:52,196 --> 00:38:55,356 Speaker 1: They would be better prepared, they would have more conviction 608 00:38:55,796 --> 00:38:58,916 Speaker 1: in this process. So yeah, I'd like to reimagine that 609 00:38:59,076 --> 00:39:01,956 Speaker 1: what that looks like. I have my own ideas of 610 00:39:01,996 --> 00:39:05,156 Speaker 1: what that looks like. But certainly, let's start with the 611 00:39:05,316 --> 00:39:08,996 Speaker 1: humanity piece. Let's talk about the four year renewable scholarships, 612 00:39:09,236 --> 00:39:13,116 Speaker 1: and let's be more intentional about how they're engaging and 613 00:39:13,276 --> 00:39:15,996 Speaker 1: is it possible at all to kind of curb the 614 00:39:16,076 --> 00:39:19,916 Speaker 1: commercialization which we know does have an impact on their 615 00:39:20,036 --> 00:39:24,756 Speaker 1: educational goals and obligations. The other thing, which many people 616 00:39:24,796 --> 00:39:26,916 Speaker 1: may call extreme, which I think gets at your point 617 00:39:26,956 --> 00:39:31,636 Speaker 1: here about reimagining a different model. Let's burn it all down. 618 00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:36,116 Speaker 1: Let's burn it all down. Let's take away the commercial 619 00:39:36,116 --> 00:39:40,316 Speaker 1: component of it and simply allow this to be an 620 00:39:40,316 --> 00:39:44,516 Speaker 1: advocation where you have the opportunity to play professionally. But 621 00:39:44,716 --> 00:39:47,436 Speaker 1: right now the lines are blurred. There is no clear 622 00:39:47,516 --> 00:39:51,796 Speaker 1: line of demarcation. If you're making billions of dollars in 623 00:39:51,836 --> 00:39:55,756 Speaker 1: this enterprise off the backs of these athletes, there's nothing 624 00:39:55,796 --> 00:39:59,276 Speaker 1: fair about that model. There's nothing fair about that. And 625 00:39:59,316 --> 00:40:03,236 Speaker 1: then to add on that while they're getting an education, again, 626 00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:06,596 Speaker 1: it goes back to the outcomes. The numbers about graduation 627 00:40:06,716 --> 00:40:10,156 Speaker 1: rais there's nothing quality about the education and that many 628 00:40:10,236 --> 00:40:13,516 Speaker 1: particularly of these athletes in the revenue generating sports. So 629 00:40:14,356 --> 00:40:17,276 Speaker 1: we can have that conversation about whether or not we 630 00:40:17,316 --> 00:40:20,436 Speaker 1: want to continue to provide band aids to the current 631 00:40:20,476 --> 00:40:23,036 Speaker 1: model and try to sort of tinker with the edges, 632 00:40:23,636 --> 00:40:25,596 Speaker 1: or if we want to sort of disrupt it in 633 00:40:25,716 --> 00:40:28,836 Speaker 1: its entirety and move on to something else. Any I 634 00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:31,316 Speaker 1: wonder if we could close by my just asking you 635 00:40:31,396 --> 00:40:36,236 Speaker 1: about your own personal path from college athlete to professor 636 00:40:36,316 --> 00:40:39,236 Speaker 1: at UC riverside. How did it all work out in 637 00:40:39,276 --> 00:40:42,796 Speaker 1: your personal experience and does your your personal experience influence 638 00:40:42,876 --> 00:40:46,116 Speaker 1: your your academic work or thinking in your field at all. Well, 639 00:40:46,116 --> 00:40:49,156 Speaker 1: thanks for asking that question. It was always a given 640 00:40:49,156 --> 00:40:51,396 Speaker 1: that I was going to go on to college, you know, 641 00:40:51,436 --> 00:40:54,996 Speaker 1: I was. I was fortunate to have a great support system. 642 00:40:55,236 --> 00:41:00,436 Speaker 1: My dad was a Southern University HBCU, was a pitcher 643 00:41:00,436 --> 00:41:02,796 Speaker 1: and a football player. You know, I was a pretty 644 00:41:02,796 --> 00:41:05,716 Speaker 1: good athlete, a pretty good student. I had the twice 645 00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:09,476 Speaker 1: of a number of colleges to play baseball and also 646 00:41:09,556 --> 00:41:13,116 Speaker 1: to play basketball, but I chose baseball because I thought 647 00:41:13,156 --> 00:41:16,156 Speaker 1: I was better and I had many more offers. I 648 00:41:16,276 --> 00:41:19,276 Speaker 1: chose to go to cal Berkeley, arguably one of the 649 00:41:19,316 --> 00:41:21,796 Speaker 1: best public schools in the world. So it was an 650 00:41:21,796 --> 00:41:23,716 Speaker 1: easy decision for me, and plus I got a chance 651 00:41:23,796 --> 00:41:26,836 Speaker 1: to actually start my freshman year. We end up going 652 00:41:26,876 --> 00:41:29,396 Speaker 1: to the College World Series. But you know, and then 653 00:41:29,516 --> 00:41:32,036 Speaker 1: you know, three years later, I was drafted, played in 654 00:41:32,076 --> 00:41:36,436 Speaker 1: the Texas Rangers organization, had a small stint with them, 655 00:41:36,636 --> 00:41:38,996 Speaker 1: end up blowing out my Achilles tendant and had to 656 00:41:39,036 --> 00:41:41,196 Speaker 1: figure out my next approach that I wanted to take 657 00:41:41,236 --> 00:41:43,756 Speaker 1: in life, and I thought, hey, you know, can I 658 00:41:43,796 --> 00:41:47,276 Speaker 1: stay in sport as an athletic director. I thought about that, 659 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:50,556 Speaker 1: but I was like, no, perhaps a probing thinker, and 660 00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:54,556 Speaker 1: I went on to get a terminal degree at UCLA. 661 00:41:54,636 --> 00:41:56,836 Speaker 1: But I thought about how I can make my difference 662 00:41:56,836 --> 00:42:01,796 Speaker 1: and impact those aspiring leaders, those current leaders. So I 663 00:42:01,836 --> 00:42:04,636 Speaker 1: think about the interplay of education and sport book but 664 00:42:04,796 --> 00:42:09,556 Speaker 1: more more generally, I think about racially minorities, students who 665 00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 1: haven't been well served by their colleges and universities, and 666 00:42:12,996 --> 00:42:16,436 Speaker 1: how that I can help to empower them, support them 667 00:42:16,436 --> 00:42:19,556 Speaker 1: in ways that would create a better today and tomorrow, 668 00:42:19,636 --> 00:42:22,036 Speaker 1: and you know, just trying to resist the current structure. 669 00:42:22,116 --> 00:42:25,196 Speaker 1: So it's been a hell of a ride. I've enjoyed 670 00:42:25,236 --> 00:42:27,476 Speaker 1: what I've been doing, and you know, I'm just getting started. 671 00:42:27,636 --> 00:42:30,476 Speaker 1: I have my new center, Center for Athletes Rights and 672 00:42:30,516 --> 00:42:32,876 Speaker 1: well Being here. We're trying to do a lot of 673 00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:36,396 Speaker 1: important work on the ground, whether it's organizing, but we're 674 00:42:36,436 --> 00:42:38,276 Speaker 1: also trying to do a lot of research to kind 675 00:42:38,276 --> 00:42:41,396 Speaker 1: of document the inequities that exist and figure out an 676 00:42:41,396 --> 00:42:46,196 Speaker 1: equitable path forward. So it's been great. Now I think 677 00:42:46,316 --> 00:42:49,956 Speaker 1: your work is just so important for getting clarity on 678 00:42:49,996 --> 00:42:53,036 Speaker 1: something that we all love college athletics, but that we 679 00:42:53,556 --> 00:42:56,716 Speaker 1: need to understand more deeply and be more critical about 680 00:42:56,916 --> 00:43:00,996 Speaker 1: in order to work towards real improvements. So thank you 681 00:43:01,036 --> 00:43:03,596 Speaker 1: for the conversation, and thank you for your fascinating work 682 00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:07,596 Speaker 1: and for your continuing activism in this really, really important area. 683 00:43:07,756 --> 00:43:17,476 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me appreciate it, enjoyed it. Speaking to 684 00:43:17,836 --> 00:43:22,596 Speaker 1: Professor Eddie Como, I was deeply struck by the illogical 685 00:43:22,636 --> 00:43:26,276 Speaker 1: structure of the way college athletics works in the United States. 686 00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:29,636 Speaker 1: On the one hand, you have a principle of amateurism 687 00:43:29,636 --> 00:43:32,716 Speaker 1: going all the way back to nineteenth century Britain. May 688 00:43:32,716 --> 00:43:35,756 Speaker 1: be unrealistic even then, but at least based on the 689 00:43:35,876 --> 00:43:38,796 Speaker 1: idea that no one should be profiting off of sport, 690 00:43:39,796 --> 00:43:44,196 Speaker 1: not the universities, not the sneaker companies, not the television channels, 691 00:43:44,196 --> 00:43:48,916 Speaker 1: just pure amateurism. Yet in America we've combined that old 692 00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:52,996 Speaker 1: idea of amateurism with a totally capitalist system in which 693 00:43:53,076 --> 00:43:55,796 Speaker 1: there's tons of money in the system. Money that goes 694 00:43:55,836 --> 00:43:58,996 Speaker 1: to universities, money that goes to coaches, money that goes 695 00:43:59,076 --> 00:44:02,276 Speaker 1: to sponsors, and ultimately, of course, money that goes to 696 00:44:02,316 --> 00:44:06,316 Speaker 1: television stations. All of this, taken together, amounts to a 697 00:44:06,356 --> 00:44:10,076 Speaker 1: system of what Eddie calls athletic capitalism, in which the 698 00:44:10,116 --> 00:44:12,956 Speaker 1: interests of the players come last, and in which the 699 00:44:12,996 --> 00:44:16,356 Speaker 1: principle of amateurism is imposed on them, whether they want 700 00:44:16,396 --> 00:44:20,556 Speaker 1: it or not. Indeed, in this system, amateurism becomes a 701 00:44:20,636 --> 00:44:24,036 Speaker 1: selling point itself, which is, if you think about it, 702 00:44:24,116 --> 00:44:27,396 Speaker 1: sort of the very contradiction of the idea of amateurism. 703 00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:31,996 Speaker 1: It's a professionalized amateurism, and it does not necessarily serve 704 00:44:32,036 --> 00:44:36,876 Speaker 1: student interests. Simultaneously, Eddie points out even many of the 705 00:44:36,916 --> 00:44:40,316 Speaker 1: improvements that have been made in facilitating good education for 706 00:44:40,356 --> 00:44:45,676 Speaker 1: college athletes, like tutoring opportunities chances to work with study groups, 707 00:44:46,036 --> 00:44:49,156 Speaker 1: are in practice not able to be taken advantage of 708 00:44:49,476 --> 00:44:52,916 Speaker 1: by student athletes because they're subjected to a system in 709 00:44:52,956 --> 00:44:57,956 Speaker 1: which the coach's word is final and performance is above all, 710 00:44:59,276 --> 00:45:02,756 Speaker 1: and of course student's capacity to remain on athletics scholarship 711 00:45:03,076 --> 00:45:06,996 Speaker 1: depends entirely on the will of the coach. This leads 712 00:45:07,076 --> 00:45:11,196 Speaker 1: Eddie to think that in many, many instance, athletes, especially 713 00:45:11,236 --> 00:45:15,596 Speaker 1: athletes of color, are being treated as mere bodies, people 714 00:45:15,636 --> 00:45:19,356 Speaker 1: who are disposable and whose interests are not treated as primary, 715 00:45:19,556 --> 00:45:22,956 Speaker 1: not even as secondary, but come last in the consideration 716 00:45:23,396 --> 00:45:26,916 Speaker 1: of how things work in the system. He made the 717 00:45:26,956 --> 00:45:29,476 Speaker 1: point that it should not be seen as a coincidence 718 00:45:29,516 --> 00:45:33,116 Speaker 1: in this context that nearly fifty percent of those who 719 00:45:33,156 --> 00:45:37,596 Speaker 1: play big ticket college sports are African American. How can 720 00:45:37,636 --> 00:45:41,996 Speaker 1: this whole system change? Doctor Como raises a range of possibilities. 721 00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:47,356 Speaker 1: They include greater unionization. They include the Supreme Court potentially 722 00:45:47,396 --> 00:45:52,876 Speaker 1: limiting antitrust protection for the NCAA and the colleges. They 723 00:45:52,876 --> 00:45:56,796 Speaker 1: include a deeper and fuller reimagining that doctor Como is suggesting, 724 00:45:57,116 --> 00:46:00,116 Speaker 1: one that hints at change in the way we see 725 00:46:00,156 --> 00:46:03,076 Speaker 1: the system, so that the athlete is treated as a 726 00:46:03,156 --> 00:46:08,276 Speaker 1: human being and as a student first. Ultimately, the goal 727 00:46:08,396 --> 00:46:11,236 Speaker 1: is at structure of money and power, do not leave 728 00:46:11,276 --> 00:46:14,916 Speaker 1: out the athletes. It's clear we're dealing with a phenomenon 729 00:46:14,996 --> 00:46:18,996 Speaker 1: that produces lots of good in the form of entertainment, engagement, 730 00:46:19,276 --> 00:46:23,436 Speaker 1: university loyalty, but it also produces a substantial amount of 731 00:46:23,476 --> 00:46:28,636 Speaker 1: inequity and unfairness at the same time. Ultimately, doctor Como 732 00:46:28,916 --> 00:46:32,396 Speaker 1: isn't urging us to stop watching college athletics. He's saying 733 00:46:32,436 --> 00:46:34,596 Speaker 1: we need to think hard and deep about how to 734 00:46:34,636 --> 00:46:38,916 Speaker 1: reimagine and rethink a system of power that doesn't necessarily 735 00:46:38,956 --> 00:46:42,516 Speaker 1: serve the interests of the human beings who are providing 736 00:46:42,596 --> 00:46:47,156 Speaker 1: us with the entertainment in the first place. Until the 737 00:46:47,156 --> 00:46:50,436 Speaker 1: next time I speak to you, be careful, be safe, 738 00:46:50,676 --> 00:46:55,636 Speaker 1: and be well. And one more note, as I speak 739 00:46:55,676 --> 00:46:58,876 Speaker 1: to you, more and more of our listeners are getting 740 00:46:58,916 --> 00:47:02,436 Speaker 1: the chance finally to be vaccinated. I'm looking forward to 741 00:47:02,476 --> 00:47:04,916 Speaker 1: a time when all of our listeners will have that 742 00:47:05,036 --> 00:47:08,036 Speaker 1: chance and will be vaccinated if they choose. And when 743 00:47:08,076 --> 00:47:10,796 Speaker 1: that happens, maybe I'll be able to stop signing off 744 00:47:10,836 --> 00:47:13,036 Speaker 1: by telling you to be careful and to be safe. 745 00:47:13,636 --> 00:47:16,316 Speaker 1: Then I can just wish you the chance to go out, 746 00:47:16,716 --> 00:47:20,916 Speaker 1: have some fun and be well. Into the bargain. Deep 747 00:47:20,956 --> 00:47:24,316 Speaker 1: background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our producer 748 00:47:24,436 --> 00:47:27,796 Speaker 1: is Mo laboord our engineer is Martin Gonzalez, and our 749 00:47:27,796 --> 00:47:32,396 Speaker 1: shore runner is Sophie Crane mckibbon. Editorial support from noahm Osband. 750 00:47:32,836 --> 00:47:36,516 Speaker 1: Theme music by Luis Guerra at Pushkin. Thanks to Mia Lobell, 751 00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:41,916 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Lydia, Jean Coott, Heather Faine, Carl mcgliori, Maggie Taylor, 752 00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:44,876 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, and Jacob Weisberg. You can find me on 753 00:47:44,916 --> 00:47:47,836 Speaker 1: Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. I also write a column 754 00:47:47,876 --> 00:47:50,596 Speaker 1: for Bloomberg Opinion, which you can find at bloomberg dot 755 00:47:50,596 --> 00:47:54,916 Speaker 1: com slash Feldman. To discover Bloomberg's original slate of podcasts, 756 00:47:55,076 --> 00:47:58,196 Speaker 1: go to Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts, and if you 757 00:47:58,236 --> 00:48:00,836 Speaker 1: liked what you heard today, please write a review or 758 00:48:00,876 --> 00:48:03,276 Speaker 1: tell a friend. This is deep background