1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,580 --> 00:00:30,580 Speaker 1: the show, fellow ridiculous historians. Thank you, as always, so 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Now, our super producer, Max Williams, 4 00:00:34,900 --> 00:00:38,020 Speaker 1: is on an adventure out west. So we want to 5 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: give a shout out to him, but also a shout 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: out to our guest engineer for today's episode, Mr. Noel Brown. 7 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. We're actually, you know, let's just call 8 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:49,949 Speaker 2: it what it is. We're producerless. We're flying blind here, man. 9 00:00:50,810 --> 00:00:53,350 Speaker 2: I hit the button and there was a countdown. But that's, look, 10 00:00:53,370 --> 00:00:55,510 Speaker 2: I'm just, you know, going with God at this point. 11 00:00:57,700 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: We always find ourselves in any number of strange situations 12 00:01:02,580 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: over almost a decade of ridiculous history. But, Noel, you're Noel. 13 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: I'm Ben Bullitt. I think you and I are both 14 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,780 Speaker 1: excited about today's episode. Hey, man, do you own a tux? 15 00:01:21,850 --> 00:01:23,590 Speaker 2: You know, I was about to ask you, you know, 16 00:01:23,650 --> 00:01:26,070 Speaker 2: I was actually I appreciate you phrasing it that way 17 00:01:26,090 --> 00:01:27,250 Speaker 2: because I was going to ask you if you'd ever 18 00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: worn a tux because the assumption was very insulting, frankly, 19 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: that you don't own a tux. I do not own 20 00:01:35,020 --> 00:01:38,500 Speaker 2: a tux. I think I have worn a tux like 21 00:01:39,410 --> 00:01:42,830 Speaker 2: maybe for a prom situation. But now I'm trying to 22 00:01:42,990 --> 00:01:45,690 Speaker 2: we're going to learn this together. The distinction between a 23 00:01:45,750 --> 00:01:48,150 Speaker 2: tux and a suit. Yeah, yeah. 24 00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:51,540 Speaker 1: I own a tux, but it's very old and I 25 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,900 Speaker 1: don't have an occasion that often calls for it because 26 00:01:55,940 --> 00:02:00,500 Speaker 1: if you just walk around randomly wearing a tuxedo. It's 27 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:03,809 Speaker 1: a big choice, right? You got to back it up. 28 00:02:03,820 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: Well, especially if you're rocking tails, my guy. 29 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:09,389 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're like a top hat away from 30 00:02:09,430 --> 00:02:11,310 Speaker 1: being in the 1800s at that point. 31 00:02:11,370 --> 00:02:16,109 Speaker 2: A monocle, perhaps a cane of some sort of decorative nature. Mm-hmm. 32 00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:18,290 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's more Gilded Age. Yeah, yeah. 33 00:02:18,370 --> 00:02:18,710 Speaker 2: This is. 34 00:02:18,990 --> 00:02:24,710 Speaker 1: Okay, this is... everybody's black tie wedding necessity, the tuxedo. 35 00:02:24,850 --> 00:02:27,049 Speaker 1: It's a really cool name. And we always think of 36 00:02:27,130 --> 00:02:28,190 Speaker 1: tuxedo cats. 37 00:02:29,190 --> 00:02:32,790 Speaker 2: Or tuxedo mask from Sailor Moon. 38 00:02:32,910 --> 00:02:37,650 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. AKA one of the easiest Halloween outfits 39 00:02:37,730 --> 00:02:38,050 Speaker 1: out there. 40 00:02:39,250 --> 00:02:41,030 Speaker 2: That's true. You just need a tuxedo and a mask. 41 00:02:41,389 --> 00:02:45,810 Speaker 1: That's right. So for a lot of us, especially here 42 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:49,770 Speaker 1: in the West, the tuxedo is like, the final boss 43 00:02:49,850 --> 00:02:53,410 Speaker 1: of formal menswear. You know, you see it in media 44 00:02:53,430 --> 00:02:56,350 Speaker 1: all the time, at the Oscars, at the Met Gala, 45 00:02:56,389 --> 00:02:59,989 Speaker 1: at all these fancy pants weddings. It's what you wear 46 00:03:00,130 --> 00:03:02,470 Speaker 1: when a suit isn't formal enough. 47 00:03:02,570 --> 00:03:09,780 Speaker 2: Enough, yeah. Have tuxes, are they still in play, Ben? 48 00:03:10,500 --> 00:03:15,619 Speaker 1: I think so, but they've definitely become less normalized than 49 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,940 Speaker 1: they were. I think now they're considered more of a 50 00:03:18,470 --> 00:03:21,690 Speaker 1: tradition thing that's why they're wearing it big events but 51 00:03:21,770 --> 00:03:24,169 Speaker 1: not you know to the dmv. 52 00:03:23,710 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: 100 yeah right exactly which is always a formal affair 53 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: especially when you're getting your photo taken um but then 54 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 2: i mean to the naked eye you might be hard 55 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:35,730 Speaker 2: pressed to tell the difference between a tux and a 56 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:38,590 Speaker 2: suit uh and there it's sort of a venn diagram 57 00:03:38,650 --> 00:03:41,930 Speaker 2: thing where it's almost like not all suits are tuxes, 58 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:44,730 Speaker 2: but all tuxes are suits, and then there's a middle 59 00:03:44,870 --> 00:03:47,589 Speaker 2: ground between the two where they cross over kind of, right? 60 00:03:47,790 --> 00:03:50,850 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. I like that comparison because you're 61 00:03:50,890 --> 00:03:54,790 Speaker 1: absolutely right. A tux has a tailored jacket. It has 62 00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:58,740 Speaker 1: matching trousers, but there are several key differences from a 63 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: tux in your garden variety suit. This is one for 64 00:04:02,420 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: all the sartorial fans in the crowd. The tux is 65 00:04:07,060 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: usually going to be black, right? Mm-hmm. It's kind of 66 00:04:09,940 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: like how most Tootsie Rolls you see are chocolate, but 67 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,780 Speaker 1: there are different flavors of Tootsie Rolls. There are different 68 00:04:14,820 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: flavors of tuxedos. You can get a dark blue one. 69 00:04:17,900 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: Or if you're super duper fancy, if you're like Bond 70 00:04:21,580 --> 00:04:24,540 Speaker 1: supervillain level fancy, you might have a white tux. 71 00:04:24,820 --> 00:04:27,700 Speaker 2: Oh, God forbid you wear a tan tux. Oh, no. 72 00:04:29,060 --> 00:04:30,140 Speaker 2: Clutches pearls. 73 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:36,150 Speaker 1: Yeah. So what's the biggest distinguishing factor, we would say, 74 00:04:36,490 --> 00:04:36,930 Speaker 1: for a tux? 75 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:43,260 Speaker 2: Well, the most important distinguishing design aspect that differentiates a 76 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 2: tux from a suit is a weird little strategically placed 77 00:04:49,620 --> 00:04:54,630 Speaker 2: strip of satin or silk on the jacket's lapels. And 78 00:04:54,670 --> 00:05:01,150 Speaker 2: this gives the lapels a subtle sheen or a matte 79 00:05:01,589 --> 00:05:03,750 Speaker 2: kind of finish. If it's satin, literally, that's what they 80 00:05:03,770 --> 00:05:05,849 Speaker 2: call a satin finish. It's sort of like a matte finish. 81 00:05:06,390 --> 00:05:09,460 Speaker 2: or a silk finish, which would be a little bit 82 00:05:09,500 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: more shiny. Mm-hmm. 83 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: Either way, you're going to be able to tell that 84 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,020 Speaker 1: the lapels are different. And the trousers will often have 85 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:20,339 Speaker 1: a matching stripe of, again, like you said, either silk 86 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,810 Speaker 1: or satin, going down the outside of each leg. Of course, 87 00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:26,910 Speaker 1: under your jacket, you've got your white formal shirt of 88 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:29,890 Speaker 1: some sort, and for some reason, a bow tie. 89 00:05:30,410 --> 00:05:32,970 Speaker 2: But that's the thing, though, Ben. You can absolutely, if 90 00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: you're so inclined, wear a bow tie with a suit. Absolutely. 91 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Which means you'll usually be a policy wonk popping 92 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,020 Speaker 1: on CNN or Fox News. That's who I associated with 93 00:05:45,060 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: them in Orville Redenbacher. Well, that's yeah, for sure. Or 94 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,340 Speaker 1: the odd, slightly nutty college professor. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. 95 00:05:53,420 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: The fun professor. 96 00:05:54,620 --> 00:05:56,740 Speaker 2: And when I say odd, I just mean the occasional, 97 00:05:56,779 --> 00:05:59,340 Speaker 2: not that they're necessarily odd, but then I inserted nutty. 98 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:00,340 Speaker 2: So I guess I did mean that. 99 00:06:00,779 --> 00:06:04,990 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I can clearly see who you're talking about 100 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:05,750 Speaker 1: in my head. 101 00:06:05,950 --> 00:06:07,890 Speaker 2: Same. In my mind's eye. There he is. 102 00:06:08,890 --> 00:06:11,870 Speaker 1: We've also got to point out that now, as we've 103 00:06:11,910 --> 00:06:16,830 Speaker 1: established in 2026, folks, pretty much everybody associates the tuxedo 104 00:06:16,910 --> 00:06:20,590 Speaker 1: with dressing up. But we were surprised to learn that 105 00:06:21,070 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: it was invented because one very powerful guy wanted to 106 00:06:25,980 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: dress down. 107 00:06:27,770 --> 00:06:30,750 Speaker 2: Right. Now, his dressing down is our dressing up because, 108 00:06:30,930 --> 00:06:33,890 Speaker 2: you know, what's it like at the top in Victorian England? 109 00:06:33,930 --> 00:06:37,500 Speaker 2: Because they're an upper class man of the upper crust 110 00:06:37,540 --> 00:06:40,220 Speaker 2: of the one percent of the one percent was expected 111 00:06:40,260 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: to follow very strict and codified dress rules on formal evenings. 112 00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:49,780 Speaker 2: The standard outfit was a waistcoat. A tailcoat, perhaps, a 113 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: jacket that was cropped but extended into two long tails 114 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,190 Speaker 2: in the back. The tailcoat was worn with a white waistcoat. Sorry, 115 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,290 Speaker 2: the waistcoat is different. The tailcoat is the outerwear. The 116 00:07:00,310 --> 00:07:04,050 Speaker 2: waistcoat is underneath. And a white bow tie. This was 117 00:07:04,110 --> 00:07:08,750 Speaker 2: the go-to for men in fashionable high society, but not 118 00:07:08,810 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: particularly comfortable. Specifically, it would be the waistcoat, I imagine, 119 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:14,220 Speaker 2: was a little bit on the tight side. 120 00:07:14,790 --> 00:07:17,330 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, right? Because you want to cut a 121 00:07:17,370 --> 00:07:19,990 Speaker 1: dashing figure. But also, this is a lot of stuff 122 00:07:20,030 --> 00:07:23,050 Speaker 1: to put on and to launder and to take care 123 00:07:23,210 --> 00:07:27,010 Speaker 1: of every day. Sometimes you just want to go to 124 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:27,930 Speaker 1: the coffee shop. 125 00:07:28,050 --> 00:07:29,910 Speaker 2: Well, what do we have footmen for, Ben? I mean, 126 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:30,230 Speaker 2: come on. 127 00:07:31,150 --> 00:07:32,790 Speaker 1: I always thought they were just for the feet. 128 00:07:33,730 --> 00:07:34,930 Speaker 2: They're for the whole package, buddy. 129 00:07:35,930 --> 00:07:39,450 Speaker 1: Okay. Well, good luck to all the handmen, I guess, 130 00:07:39,690 --> 00:07:40,330 Speaker 1: and headmen. 131 00:07:40,590 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: Exactly. Oh, the headmen there are executioners. That's right, yes. 132 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: A man for each body part. And this, at least, 133 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,140 Speaker 1: is how Albert Edward, the Prince of Wales, felt. He, 134 00:07:55,260 --> 00:07:59,220 Speaker 1: of course, being the Prince of Wales, had to wear 135 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,940 Speaker 1: this get-up day in and day out. Eventually, he becomes 136 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:09,980 Speaker 1: King Edward VII. But still, as king and as Prince 137 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,210 Speaker 1: of Wales earlier, He was known for his sharp fashion 138 00:08:14,250 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: sense and his taste for the finer things in life. 139 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,300 Speaker 1: This is a guy who would like caviar, you know, 140 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: pheasant under glass. And he loved socializing and going to 141 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:30,500 Speaker 1: salon and talking about fancy people things, which I'm clearly freestyling. 142 00:08:30,540 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: I don't know of horse breeding or. 143 00:08:32,660 --> 00:08:37,540 Speaker 2: Dressage, right? And I just double confirmed this. This Albert Edward, 144 00:08:37,610 --> 00:08:40,510 Speaker 2: Prince of Wales, is the same Prince Albert that's long 145 00:08:40,530 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: been Relatively incorrectly associated with the piercing known as the 146 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:47,940 Speaker 2: Prince Albert. 147 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you were going to say, do you 148 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: have Prince Albert in a can? 149 00:08:52,940 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 2: Well, you better let him out. You have to let 150 00:08:54,980 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 2: him out. No, according to the story, Prince Albert, the 151 00:08:59,179 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: husband of Queen Victoria, had his heart. His penis pierced 152 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: in order to secure it inside tight-fitting trousers supposedly to 153 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: prevent an obvious bulge. 154 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,820 Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. But that is not true? 155 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,689 Speaker 2: Well, neither Albert Edward nor his father, Prince Albert, can 156 00:09:19,730 --> 00:09:24,230 Speaker 2: be reliably documented as having had this piercing. The royal 157 00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:27,110 Speaker 2: connection is almost certainly an invention. 158 00:09:27,770 --> 00:09:30,310 Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know why that makes me somehow more 159 00:09:30,390 --> 00:09:32,580 Speaker 1: comfortable or less uncomfortable. 160 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,980 Speaker 2: I mean, just thinking about doing that to oneself, I 161 00:09:35,980 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 2: don't know how much more uncomfortable you can get, but 162 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 2: I'm glad that you feel better. 163 00:09:39,780 --> 00:09:42,900 Speaker 1: Thanks, man. And I'm glad that we're on the same 164 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: page about that penis wise. 165 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 2: It's 1865. 166 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: And we can only assume that Eddie is looking for 167 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:58,089 Speaker 1: a more comfortable alternative to the tailcoat, right? That, like 168 00:09:58,110 --> 00:10:00,460 Speaker 1: you said, you've got the tailcoat, you got the waistcoat. 169 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,820 Speaker 1: There's a lot of, these are a lot of coats 170 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:04,849 Speaker 1: to have on you and they can be tight. He's 171 00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:08,349 Speaker 1: 24 years old at the time. And he commissions a 172 00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:13,490 Speaker 1: fancy London tailoring house called Henry Poole & Co. They're 173 00:10:13,510 --> 00:10:15,460 Speaker 1: the kind of folks who would be on Seville Row. 174 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,540 Speaker 1: And he says, make me a new kind of jacket. 175 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: I want something shorter. I want to go to less 176 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:26,699 Speaker 1: formal dinners at my country estate, Sandringham. This is a 177 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:27,709 Speaker 1: rich guy problem. 178 00:10:27,790 --> 00:10:30,170 Speaker 2: Boy, is it ever. It's sad, saddening. And by the way, 179 00:10:30,809 --> 00:10:36,110 Speaker 2: the legendary Savile Row is still known for its high-end tailors. 180 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:38,750 Speaker 2: In fact, there's an episode of a show I think 181 00:10:38,770 --> 00:10:42,810 Speaker 2: we both enjoy, Toast of London, that features Jon Hamm 182 00:10:43,210 --> 00:10:47,030 Speaker 2: as this guy that has ultimate charisma that everyone falls 183 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: in love with, sort of like playing on his own mythos. 184 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:53,300 Speaker 2: And he is talking about taking Stephen Toast with him 185 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,790 Speaker 2: to the Savile Row. to purchase some fine shirts. 186 00:10:57,530 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: Nice. Savile Row also plays a role in the Kingsman 187 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:10,780 Speaker 1: film franchise. It's synonymous, right, with the sexy upper crust. 188 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:16,210 Speaker 1: And I've always wanted to get a suit from somewhere 189 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:18,330 Speaker 1: on the row when I'm in London. 190 00:11:18,890 --> 00:11:20,189 Speaker 2: I haven't been to London since I was a very, 191 00:11:20,230 --> 00:11:22,750 Speaker 2: very small child. And I look forward to going. And 192 00:11:22,830 --> 00:11:25,260 Speaker 2: I am at a place now where I very much 193 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: would enjoy having a nice tailored suit. So maybe I'll 194 00:11:28,140 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: just hold off until I make it over to the 195 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:31,900 Speaker 2: saddle row. Yeah, yeah. 196 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:32,980 Speaker 1: It's going to be pricey, though. 197 00:11:33,059 --> 00:11:36,059 Speaker 2: Oh, I know. It's the kind of thing, though, that 198 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,730 Speaker 2: you don't need more than one, really, unless you're mega, 199 00:11:38,750 --> 00:11:40,410 Speaker 2: mega fancy, you know? But if you have one that 200 00:11:40,450 --> 00:11:42,709 Speaker 2: fits really well and you whip it out at the 201 00:11:42,809 --> 00:11:44,750 Speaker 2: odd formal occasion, I think one is enough. 202 00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:50,809 Speaker 1: Yeah, right. One day it would definitely freak out some 203 00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:54,890 Speaker 1: of our buddies, our work pals, If you and I 204 00:11:54,950 --> 00:11:57,410 Speaker 1: got tailored suits the next time we did a live show, 205 00:11:57,530 --> 00:11:58,829 Speaker 1: we just showed up in the suits. 206 00:11:59,170 --> 00:12:01,550 Speaker 2: Heck yeah, dude. Let's do it. I like this plan. 207 00:12:02,050 --> 00:12:07,300 Speaker 2: So the tailoring house produced a tailless dinner jacket, apparently 208 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 2: made of blue silk. And in the world of Victorian fashion, 209 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:18,260 Speaker 2: this was nigh on blasphemous, right? No tails. Heresy, I say. 210 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:22,110 Speaker 2: And then I being the president of high fashion or 211 00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:23,229 Speaker 2: the duke or whatever. 212 00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:28,470 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is important because these folks or this demographic 213 00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:32,270 Speaker 1: is still very tradition and legacy bound. And we could 214 00:12:32,350 --> 00:12:35,530 Speaker 1: make a pretty good argument that you would have to 215 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,620 Speaker 1: be a person as powerful as royalty to get away 216 00:12:39,660 --> 00:12:41,540 Speaker 1: with this in the fashion world. Because if it was 217 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,620 Speaker 1: just like, you know, if it was just somebody from 218 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:50,010 Speaker 1: the merchant class, or if it were a less powerful aristocrat, they. 219 00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:52,790 Speaker 2: Would probably— You might be denied entry to the formal evidence. 220 00:12:52,809 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: You'd be laughed out of the schlarkingham, or whatever the 221 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: hell it's called. 222 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,260 Speaker 1: You'd be banned from the gentleman's club. 223 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: Sardingham. Sandringham. No, sir, I say. You shall not enter. 224 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: You shall not pass with this blasphemous outfit. But much 225 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:13,030 Speaker 2: like Louis XIV, who was a huge fashion plate, his 226 00:13:13,170 --> 00:13:18,130 Speaker 2: choices dictated. And that's kind of what's happening here. Yeah. 227 00:13:18,390 --> 00:13:20,990 Speaker 1: And so it comes to pass that over the next 228 00:13:21,090 --> 00:13:25,589 Speaker 1: few decades, this shorter dinner jacket thing becomes more and 229 00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:32,260 Speaker 1: more popular amongst the clothing horses of the British set. 230 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: Yes, indeed. Pret-a-porter. No, that's different. That's ready to wear. 231 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: But that is kind of... I don't know. This era, 232 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,380 Speaker 2: I think, in London is kind of the beginning of 233 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,330 Speaker 2: the period of English fashion that you would see dramatized 234 00:13:47,550 --> 00:13:51,490 Speaker 2: in Phantom Thread, for example. Like all of these really 235 00:13:51,850 --> 00:13:56,449 Speaker 2: kind of legacy-based fashion houses. A lot of them got 236 00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:58,650 Speaker 2: their start because of these types of moves. 237 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And... We also know that fashion is a conversation, right? 238 00:14:06,540 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: Aside from covering your body to some degree, fashion is 239 00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:15,950 Speaker 1: much more of an aesthetically based thing. So this is becoming, 240 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:20,650 Speaker 1: this short coat is becoming more acceptable because people want 241 00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:24,850 Speaker 1: to be like the king, but it is still kind 242 00:14:24,890 --> 00:14:28,330 Speaker 1: of edgy, right? It's still kind of like having a 243 00:14:28,730 --> 00:14:32,300 Speaker 1: tattoo on the top of your hand. some people will 244 00:14:32,380 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: say it's not appropriate for all occasions. And they're saying 245 00:14:35,540 --> 00:14:36,020 Speaker 1: stuff like. 246 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,990 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'm quite a progressive person. I have 247 00:14:40,020 --> 00:14:44,130 Speaker 3: no moral issue with the short-coaters, but we definitely shouldn't 248 00:14:44,190 --> 00:14:46,970 Speaker 3: have them at a ball with a short coat. 249 00:14:48,350 --> 00:14:51,770 Speaker 2: At a ball? You know what, Ben? Just really quickly, 250 00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:57,500 Speaker 2: the history of those fashion houses is, very much dates 251 00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:01,230 Speaker 2: back to the Savile Row. An earliest example would be 252 00:15:01,330 --> 00:15:05,270 Speaker 2: Locke & Co. Hatters, a haberdashery or a men's, well, 253 00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:07,270 Speaker 2: haberdashery is a men's clothing store, but this was a 254 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: historic hat maker founded during Charles II's reign. They would 255 00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:16,140 Speaker 2: dress royalty, aristocrats, and military officials. Then you had in 256 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:23,710 Speaker 2: 1689 Ede and Ravenscroft, which is an incredibly beautifully British-sounding name. 1689, 257 00:15:23,710 --> 00:15:26,710 Speaker 2: like I said, London's oldest established tailor. They did all 258 00:15:26,750 --> 00:15:30,170 Speaker 2: these royal ceremonial clothes, court robes and legal attire. They 259 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:33,010 Speaker 2: probably did the perukes, I would imagine, as well, Ben. 260 00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:38,340 Speaker 2: Then you had Gives and Hawke, 1771, followed by– Henry 261 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: Poole & Co., which really did. I was just kind 262 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,140 Speaker 2: of going by vibes here, but it is true. They 263 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: were one of the most influential houses in menswear, and 264 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 2: they became kind of the status quo of this sort 265 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: of world of high fashion in London. 266 00:15:54,610 --> 00:15:59,010 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these fashion houses are also learning about these 267 00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:03,530 Speaker 1: shorter coats, right? We know this thing we could start 268 00:16:03,610 --> 00:16:09,670 Speaker 1: calling the dinner jacket. is meant to be used for private, 269 00:16:09,810 --> 00:16:12,890 Speaker 1: less formal occasions. Because a lot of times in these 270 00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:16,550 Speaker 1: aristocratic estates, you have smoking rooms where the guys get 271 00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:17,990 Speaker 1: together after dinner. 272 00:16:18,010 --> 00:16:20,330 Speaker 2: With their brandies and their cigars. 273 00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:24,580 Speaker 1: Just so, yeah. And there's a operational issue here because 274 00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:28,950 Speaker 1: a long tailcoat is awkward in these spaces. And also 275 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:33,670 Speaker 1: tobacco ash and heavy furniture and upholstery don't do well 276 00:16:33,790 --> 00:16:38,970 Speaker 1: with those tight white waistcoats. So it's not just in 277 00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:43,810 Speaker 1: Eddie's defense here. It's not just a matter of him 278 00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:47,530 Speaker 1: being like an edgy fashion guy. It is a matter 279 00:16:47,580 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: of comfort. And also a black coat doesn't show. tobacco 280 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: stains or ash as you. 281 00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:56,900 Speaker 2: Sure for sure yeah you still got to be careful 282 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 2: not to burn them but yeah no you're definitely a 283 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:07,820 Speaker 2: little bit more set up for success there so if 284 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,850 Speaker 2: we fast forward to the 1880s uh in an exclusive 285 00:17:11,070 --> 00:17:14,629 Speaker 2: residential community north of new york city we have an 286 00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:18,670 Speaker 2: area known as tuxedo park which is where a lot 287 00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: of the wellest to-do of Manhattan families would reside. This 288 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:31,260 Speaker 2: was developed by one Pierre L'Oreal, the fourth, right? Yes. Yes, cool. 289 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,980 Speaker 2: Thank you. Always helping me out with the Roman numerals. 290 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: Still don't quite have it. An American tobacconist. Well, not 291 00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:39,540 Speaker 2: a tobacconist. I guess a tobacconist is someone who runs 292 00:17:39,580 --> 00:17:43,180 Speaker 2: a tobacco shop. This was a tobacco manufacturer, an heir 293 00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:45,300 Speaker 2: to tobacco fortunes. 294 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:52,060 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. We we know that this gated community had 295 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: elaborate country houses, these highly manicured grounds. You know, people 296 00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:02,770 Speaker 1: are in competition with their lawn care. And they also 297 00:18:02,830 --> 00:18:05,750 Speaker 1: had this was the crown jewel here. They had an 298 00:18:05,850 --> 00:18:11,870 Speaker 1: exclusive social club. These were the blue bloods of American society. 299 00:18:12,430 --> 00:18:15,490 Speaker 1: We're talking members of some of the most prominent families 300 00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:20,450 Speaker 1: in U.S. history. And they have rules that clearly trace 301 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: back to the strict etiquette of European high society. Because 302 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,510 Speaker 1: as we pointed out, yeah, as we pointed out previous episodes, man, 303 00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: American aristocrats sure had a chip on their shoulder about 304 00:18:34,410 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: not being European, hence the transatlantic accent. 305 00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:41,500 Speaker 2: A hundred percent. So according to one popular legend, it 306 00:18:41,580 --> 00:18:44,869 Speaker 2: was there in this part of New York in October 307 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:48,810 Speaker 2: of 1886 that the tuxedo, as we know it, was 308 00:18:48,890 --> 00:18:54,500 Speaker 2: born at the Tuxedo Club. and their autumn ball or gala. 309 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:00,260 Speaker 2: A guy named Griswold L'Orient, again, heir to Pierre L'Orient, 310 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,220 Speaker 2: was a young member of that tobacco family, came to 311 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,850 Speaker 2: the ball wearing a jacket minus the tails, which even 312 00:19:06,930 --> 00:19:10,510 Speaker 2: then shocked the rest of the guests for defying convention. 313 00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:14,810 Speaker 2: The jacket would henceforth be known as the tuxedo. And 314 00:19:14,869 --> 00:19:17,470 Speaker 2: now the question, of course, becomes, how much of this 315 00:19:17,530 --> 00:19:20,429 Speaker 2: is apocryphal and myth-making and how much of this is 316 00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:22,490 Speaker 2: something that historians can confirm. 317 00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, but we definitely can't, given what we know about 318 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:30,300 Speaker 1: the community there, we definitely can't imagine this being the 319 00:19:30,420 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: scandal of this season, right? Griswold in a jacket without tails? 320 00:19:36,940 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: Who does he think he is? Pish posh. 321 00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:42,070 Speaker 1: Dogs and cats sleeping together. It's the end of the world. 322 00:19:42,270 --> 00:19:42,659 Speaker 2: Sure is. 323 00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:47,460 Speaker 1: And you're right. I mean, Tuxedo Club in Tuxedo Park, 324 00:19:48,310 --> 00:19:51,180 Speaker 1: that's very much a real place. And it's still around. 325 00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: It is still private. It has an 18-hole golf course. 326 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: They have all the fun exercise, sports stuff. But you're 327 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,619 Speaker 1: going to have a difficult time getting in because it's 328 00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:10,659 Speaker 1: still also very, very exclusive. So we're not saying that 329 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: we have doubts about Tuxedo Park and Tuxedo Club. But 330 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: as you were pointing out, we do have doubts about 331 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: the veracity of this particular story with no disrespect to Griswold. 332 00:20:24,740 --> 00:20:28,070 Speaker 1: Because like we proved, the dinner jacket already existed in 333 00:20:28,109 --> 00:20:31,220 Speaker 1: the UK for around 20 years at this point. And 334 00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:36,070 Speaker 1: the American story probably got told and retold over and 335 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:38,770 Speaker 1: over again through the game of telephone. and got a 336 00:20:38,850 --> 00:20:41,350 Speaker 1: little more sensational each time. Yep. 337 00:20:41,470 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 2: A hundred percent. That's how history works and also how 338 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,700 Speaker 2: gossip works and spreads. Yeah. 339 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: It's, it's funny because it was reminding me a bit 340 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,050 Speaker 1: of the Met Gala and, and things of that nature, 341 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,270 Speaker 1: you know, where it may have been something where Griswold 342 00:20:56,630 --> 00:21:00,850 Speaker 1: was just doing a flex, like a theatrical costume, a 343 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:05,660 Speaker 1: one-off eccentric thing. Like Heidi Klum dressing as a severed hand. 344 00:21:05,790 --> 00:21:06,389 Speaker 2: So cool. 345 00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:09,629 Speaker 1: It's not going to, which is amazing, is not going 346 00:21:09,690 --> 00:21:13,290 Speaker 1: to make, you know, automatically make every other actor in 347 00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:15,369 Speaker 1: Hollywood dress as a severed hand. 348 00:21:15,590 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: No, no, she really does kind of. I mean, obviously, 349 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:21,540 Speaker 2: there are plenty of high level actor types and Hollywood 350 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,820 Speaker 2: types that go all in with Halloween costumes. But she 351 00:21:23,859 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 2: has made her Halloween costumes like kind of just the. 352 00:21:27,660 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: ultimate in excess and just like doing the most, let's 353 00:21:32,060 --> 00:21:34,020 Speaker 2: call it. Ben, did you see that there were some 354 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: behind the scenes photos of her being fitted and molded and, 355 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: you know, all of the things that go into an 356 00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:43,419 Speaker 2: elaborate latex kind of costume like this at a special 357 00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:46,940 Speaker 2: effects house? And supposedly, I've seen conflicting reports, but in 358 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 2: the background, you can see some little snippets that give 359 00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: away some plot points to the new Batman movie. 360 00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:57,570 Speaker 1: I had heard about that. I had actually heard about that. 361 00:21:57,650 --> 00:22:01,260 Speaker 1: I haven't seen this, but I think it led people 362 00:22:01,340 --> 00:22:05,670 Speaker 1: to say they got a glimpse of the. three big 363 00:22:05,730 --> 00:22:06,810 Speaker 1: villains for the film. 364 00:22:07,109 --> 00:22:09,470 Speaker 2: Well, I do know about that. I believe it's called 365 00:22:09,550 --> 00:22:12,190 Speaker 2: the Confederation of Owls. Do you know about this? 366 00:22:12,210 --> 00:22:13,370 Speaker 3: Yes. In the comics? Yes. 367 00:22:13,910 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: Really creepy. 368 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: They're like this almost kind of aristocratic British looking family 369 00:22:17,619 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: with kids and they wear these creepy owl masks that 370 00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: I've actually seen packaged up with some comics in like 371 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,260 Speaker 2: some special editions, like in a box and comes with 372 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,700 Speaker 2: the owl mask. But the only clue to that was 373 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,060 Speaker 2: a mold. You can't see what it actually is, but 374 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: it says owl number three. And there are three of. 375 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,980 Speaker 1: Ah, okay. That's where I was getting the number three from. Okay. 376 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,570 Speaker 1: You know, I love the idea here, I've got to say, of— 377 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,150 Speaker 1: Order of Owls, rather. 378 00:22:47,210 --> 00:22:47,590 Speaker 2: Excuse me. 379 00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:51,750 Speaker 1: Order of Owls, yes. A conspiracy throughout Gotham City. I 380 00:22:51,869 --> 00:22:56,930 Speaker 1: love the idea, though, of people being so impressed with 381 00:22:56,970 --> 00:23:00,570 Speaker 1: Heidi Klum's severed hand costume that it becomes the normal, 382 00:23:00,869 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: like a tuxedo costume. is today and you have to 383 00:23:04,420 --> 00:23:07,659 Speaker 1: dress as a severed hand for a formal event. I 384 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: hope it happens. Maybe we can be the change. And 385 00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:15,190 Speaker 1: also shout out to Klum for not doing the tired 386 00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:19,109 Speaker 1: trope of the sexy, sexy Halloween costume. Oh, no. 387 00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:21,690 Speaker 2: Remember when she dressed up as a worm on a book? 388 00:23:21,790 --> 00:23:23,210 Speaker 1: Yeah. 389 00:23:23,290 --> 00:23:25,189 Speaker 2: And really quickly for any comic book folks out there 390 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: that are screaming at their podcast device, it's the Court 391 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,230 Speaker 2: of Owls. And there are more than three. It is 392 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 2: a whole secret society, but I have seen images from 393 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:35,060 Speaker 2: comics where it's like three of them and it looks 394 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,500 Speaker 2: almost like or maybe it's four of them where it 395 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,379 Speaker 2: looks like a mother and a father and two kids. 396 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, they play with that trope a lot. And probably 397 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,300 Speaker 1: just for this has nothing to do with anything, folks, 398 00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: but probably just for production purposes or plot purposes, there 399 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: will be three owls featured and their their identities get 400 00:23:54,420 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: revealed at some point. but we know there's an army 401 00:23:57,460 --> 00:24:00,110 Speaker 1: of owls behind them. Excuse me, a parliament of owls 402 00:24:00,130 --> 00:24:00,450 Speaker 1: behind them. 403 00:24:00,490 --> 00:24:03,649 Speaker 2: I am very curious about these characters. They are very mysterious, 404 00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:06,550 Speaker 2: and their masks are dope and super creepy. 405 00:24:07,070 --> 00:24:11,100 Speaker 1: And with that, we have to acknowledge there is a 406 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:16,859 Speaker 1: competing story in the U.S. that credits a different member 407 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,740 Speaker 1: of the Tuxedo Club with introducing the British dinner jacket 408 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: to American society. This man... is James Brown Potter. So 409 00:24:25,859 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: in this story, which is equally believable, he is traveling 410 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: abroad across the pond. He's in England. He meets the 411 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:41,010 Speaker 1: actual Prince of Wales. And the prince says, oh, Potter, 412 00:24:41,450 --> 00:24:43,690 Speaker 1: my guy, you got to check. Why are you still 413 00:24:43,710 --> 00:24:46,930 Speaker 1: wearing tails here in the smoking room? Check this out, bro. 414 00:24:47,150 --> 00:24:51,030 Speaker 1: Look at my sick, tailless jacket. And then James Potter 415 00:24:51,050 --> 00:24:53,690 Speaker 1: gets impressed and he brings the style home to New York. 416 00:24:55,340 --> 00:24:58,419 Speaker 1: For some reason, I find this one even a little 417 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: bit more plausible because the Americans had such a chip 418 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,350 Speaker 1: on their shoulder about European society. I could see Potter 419 00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:09,209 Speaker 1: coming back to the tuxedo club and people going, oh, 420 00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:12,470 Speaker 1: my God, Potter, where are your tails? And then he says, 421 00:25:13,030 --> 00:25:14,610 Speaker 1: it's all the rage in England. 422 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: I could also see it having been any number of 423 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,260 Speaker 2: other individuals that went through the same exact experience, right? 424 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: When you really think it. 425 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: Was one guy that was like, I'm the one that's 426 00:25:24,580 --> 00:25:26,609 Speaker 2: going to introduce it. I mean, surely there were plenty 427 00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:29,889 Speaker 2: of upper crust folks traveling between, you know, London and 428 00:25:30,270 --> 00:25:32,750 Speaker 2: New York who would have seen this just like, you know, 429 00:25:33,090 --> 00:25:36,470 Speaker 2: spices and various other things from foreign lands were brought back, 430 00:25:36,530 --> 00:25:38,790 Speaker 2: you know, by sailors. It wasn't like one dude. 431 00:25:39,210 --> 00:25:41,980 Speaker 1: A hundred percent. And it's usually not one dude, to 432 00:25:42,020 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: be honest with you folks. So- Now the tuxedo has 433 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: infected Hollywood and it's got that specific name. It's no 434 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,300 Speaker 1: longer being called a dinner jacket like it is in 435 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,510 Speaker 1: the UK. By the early 1900s, the tuxedo is becoming 436 00:25:58,730 --> 00:26:02,889 Speaker 1: acceptable evening attire here in the States. It's less formal 437 00:26:03,170 --> 00:26:06,649 Speaker 1: than your tailcoat, but it's still a popular alternative. It's 438 00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:09,660 Speaker 1: kind of like when you see a guy wearing When 439 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,900 Speaker 1: you see a guy hanging with his buddies and everybody 440 00:26:11,980 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: else has a suit jacket and a button up shirt 441 00:26:14,770 --> 00:26:17,270 Speaker 1: and one guy just has a turtleneck, you know, he's 442 00:26:17,310 --> 00:26:17,810 Speaker 1: just different. 443 00:26:18,109 --> 00:26:21,609 Speaker 2: He's just different. No, you're correct. And Hollywood, of course, 444 00:26:22,010 --> 00:26:23,590 Speaker 2: like it does with a lot of things, gave it 445 00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:27,130 Speaker 2: the kind of pop cultural push over the cliff beginning 446 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:31,310 Speaker 2: in the 30s when you have Fred Astaire. the incredibly 447 00:26:31,410 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: famous dancer and movie star showing up in a lot 448 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,300 Speaker 2: of his films wearing a tuxedo, including like a white, 449 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: what would you call it, like a cummerbund kind of 450 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:47,740 Speaker 2: situation and a bow tie and patent leather shoes or 451 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 2: whatever those shiny shoes are in films like Top Hat, 1935, 452 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,710 Speaker 2: Swing Time, The Year After. He really transformed this kind 453 00:26:56,750 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 2: of formal wear into a symbol not only of upper 454 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:07,060 Speaker 2: crustitude or crustiness, I guess, but also grace and elegance and, 455 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: you know, being kind of a man's man, uh, being 456 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,060 Speaker 2: able to kind of be seen as masculine, but also, uh, 457 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,500 Speaker 2: kind of genteel in a weird kind of combo. 458 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,620 Speaker 1: Very much like the Dos Equis guy later, the most 459 00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:24,310 Speaker 1: interesting man in the room. And this, this also happens. 460 00:27:24,619 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: This is a rise in the, um, um, In the 461 00:27:29,260 --> 00:27:32,100 Speaker 1: class or the perceived class of the tuxedo, we have 462 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,310 Speaker 1: to remember that in World War I, as social conventions 463 00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:39,950 Speaker 1: were loosening, the tuxedo was still a little more edgy, 464 00:27:40,050 --> 00:27:44,429 Speaker 1: particularly for younger men in the jazz clubs. It was 465 00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:48,450 Speaker 1: a nightclub fixture. It was known as something you would 466 00:27:48,490 --> 00:27:51,110 Speaker 1: wear if you were just balling out at a party. 467 00:27:51,470 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: But now, like you're describing, as Hollywood is kind of making– 468 00:27:56,820 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: the tuxedo a character in its own right, we see 469 00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:05,380 Speaker 1: more and more famous characters and indeed famous actors kind 470 00:28:05,420 --> 00:28:08,409 Speaker 1: of defined by the fact that they're always dressed up. 471 00:28:08,790 --> 00:28:12,790 Speaker 2: Yep, like Humphrey Bogart, his character Rick Blaine in the 472 00:28:12,790 --> 00:28:16,889 Speaker 2: 1942 film Casablanca. He wears a white tuxedo jacket and 473 00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:21,750 Speaker 2: a black bow tie running a fancy nightclub in wartime Morocco. 474 00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:28,180 Speaker 2: Astaire's kind of uniform was more meant to indicate grace 475 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,860 Speaker 2: and elegance, but Bogart wears it in a way that 476 00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 2: kind of communicates more grace. complexity to his character, like 477 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:41,340 Speaker 2: a certain edginess and danger perhaps. His character is super 478 00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:45,780 Speaker 2: cynical and kind of wounded. He's surrounded by criminals and 479 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: mixed up in political intrigue. So it really starts to 480 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,070 Speaker 2: become a sign of a certain type of individual that 481 00:28:53,090 --> 00:28:56,330 Speaker 2: you're going to see parlay into the James Bond of 482 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 2: But that doesn't come until the 60s and the 50s 483 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: and early 60s. You also start to see it even 484 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,790 Speaker 2: further associated with Hollywood nightclubs and groups of famous people 485 00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:09,630 Speaker 2: such as the Rat Pack with Dean Martin and Sammy 486 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:13,750 Speaker 2: Davis Jr. All in their matching tuxedos, smoking them if 487 00:29:13,790 --> 00:29:17,620 Speaker 2: they got them, drinking their cocktails, high rolling at casinos 488 00:29:17,660 --> 00:29:20,780 Speaker 2: and hanging out in jazz clubs. At this point, the 489 00:29:20,820 --> 00:29:25,620 Speaker 2: look begins to drastically change from the idea of Victorian 490 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 2: formality and becomes, again, something a little more edgy, showing 491 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,830 Speaker 2: an ability to blend in with high society but representing 492 00:29:34,130 --> 00:29:37,590 Speaker 2: kind of confidence, social power, and also a little bit of, 493 00:29:38,350 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: let's call it, mystery and intrigue. Enter James Bond, played 494 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,630 Speaker 2: by Sean Connery in Dr. No, 1962. That's probably one 495 00:29:47,650 --> 00:29:58,910 Speaker 2: of the more recognizable cinematic portrayals of the tuxedo. sitting 496 00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:02,970 Speaker 2: at a casino table, dressed to the nines, you know, 497 00:30:03,370 --> 00:30:08,150 Speaker 2: representing that finery, but also that ability to kind of like, 498 00:30:08,850 --> 00:30:12,020 Speaker 2: I don't know, be a chameleon, you know, amongst the 499 00:30:12,380 --> 00:30:15,420 Speaker 2: upper crust, but also kind of having his own secret motivations. 500 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, being an apex predator, regal like a tiger, yeah, 501 00:30:19,740 --> 00:30:24,460 Speaker 1: and always accompanied inevitably by a beautiful woman with a 502 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:29,010 Speaker 1: very strange name. Exactly, yes, exactly. I love that we're 503 00:30:29,030 --> 00:30:33,350 Speaker 1: talking the 60s and the 70s because as this evolution continues, 504 00:30:34,130 --> 00:30:40,820 Speaker 1: the conventional tuxedo footprint becomes more and more flamboyant, you 505 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:42,380 Speaker 1: could say. Not quite garish. 506 00:30:42,620 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: Leisure suits, man. 507 00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: Leisure suits. 508 00:30:44,540 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: I mean, that was maybe the ultimate trajectory if we're 509 00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:52,140 Speaker 2: talking garishness, but flared pants, much more exaggerated lapels. 510 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:58,380 Speaker 1: Think John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever. Think Austin Powers, right, 511 00:30:59,030 --> 00:31:03,390 Speaker 1: who was not around in the 60s. There were even 512 00:31:03,470 --> 00:31:05,990 Speaker 1: the famous Canadian tuxedos. 513 00:31:06,670 --> 00:31:08,450 Speaker 2: I don't know what a Canadian tuxedo is. It sounds 514 00:31:08,490 --> 00:31:09,660 Speaker 2: like a sex move. 515 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:18,170 Speaker 1: It does. It's a funny joke about– people who wear 516 00:31:18,290 --> 00:31:20,130 Speaker 1: all denim, they call it a Canadian. 517 00:31:20,220 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 2: I have heard that. 518 00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:25,140 Speaker 1: That's great. Some people do make suits out of denim 519 00:31:25,660 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: at this point. And have you ever heard of a 520 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,430 Speaker 1: duct tape referred to as Georgia Chrome? I have not, 521 00:31:31,550 --> 00:31:34,750 Speaker 1: but now it makes so much sense. And also this 522 00:31:35,270 --> 00:31:38,850 Speaker 1: is a pro tip. Noel, you reminded me of this 523 00:31:39,230 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: just now. There is a pattern in English where you 524 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,140 Speaker 1: can make anything sound like a sexual euphemism all you 525 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,050 Speaker 1: do is to take the name of the place okay 526 00:31:51,070 --> 00:31:52,370 Speaker 1: i got it and a noun or a. 527 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:55,350 Speaker 2: Verb okay give me just give me an example. 528 00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:59,650 Speaker 1: Oh okay well uh canadian tuxedo now sounds like a 529 00:31:59,650 --> 00:32:03,750 Speaker 1: sex movie you could also call someone a florida socialite oh. 530 00:32:03,970 --> 00:32:07,630 Speaker 2: Nazi nazi right i don't know. 531 00:32:06,990 --> 00:32:09,710 Speaker 1: What that means or why why that works it's something 532 00:32:09,730 --> 00:32:11,890 Speaker 1: about having a specific Well. 533 00:32:11,950 --> 00:32:14,870 Speaker 2: Ben, much like our previous mention of the– I guess 534 00:32:14,890 --> 00:32:18,650 Speaker 2: we didn't go into detail, but the scandal of the 535 00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:22,590 Speaker 2: tan suit. Barack Obama created some sort of diplomatic kerfuffle 536 00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: by wearing a tan suit, which just seems so charming 537 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 2: by today's standards of international kerfuffles. Marlena Dietrich, an incredibly 538 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: talented actor, caused a scandal by wearing a tuxedo in 539 00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:38,660 Speaker 2: the 1930 film Morocco as a woman. 540 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: What? 541 00:32:40,170 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: She appeared in a tuxedo and a top hat and 542 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,660 Speaker 2: kissed another woman during a performance in a nightclub. She 543 00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:49,870 Speaker 2: also often wore men's clothing off screen and was, speaking 544 00:32:49,910 --> 00:32:53,730 Speaker 2: of being denied entry, she was rejected from the famous 545 00:32:53,770 --> 00:32:57,390 Speaker 2: Hollywood Brown Derby, the restaurant that is often associated with 546 00:32:57,410 --> 00:33:00,020 Speaker 2: kind of golden age of cinema. And that was for 547 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:02,140 Speaker 2: wearing slacks, of all things. 548 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,780 Speaker 1: I could swear we have mentioned that absolute legend in 549 00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:07,300 Speaker 1: a previous episode. 550 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 2: She was a very important figure in, you know, less 551 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 2: conformity around gender roles. 552 00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. And that's an important thing, right, to have occur. 553 00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:23,810 Speaker 1: So decades overdue, but thank you very much. By the mid-1970s, 554 00:33:24,050 --> 00:33:34,210 Speaker 1: more conservative... fashion decision makers are saying, this denim, these 555 00:33:34,250 --> 00:33:37,090 Speaker 1: bright colors, these ruffles on your shirts, it's all gone 556 00:33:37,170 --> 00:33:40,410 Speaker 1: too far. And as we always see in fashion, there 557 00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:43,410 Speaker 1: was a backlash, a reaction to the new styles. And 558 00:33:44,170 --> 00:33:48,940 Speaker 1: some designers like Yves Saint Laurent began to revive the 559 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:53,100 Speaker 1: classic style. And they would say, understated, elegant, powerful. 560 00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:57,140 Speaker 2: Speaking of the Met Gala, Ben, a big feature I 561 00:33:57,180 --> 00:34:00,250 Speaker 2: want to say this year, was a lot of folks 562 00:34:00,290 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: kind of hearkening back to that classic Hollywood look and 563 00:34:03,620 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: wearing what might be considered a little bit more of 564 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: a dated outfit, but it's sort of being recontextualized. A 565 00:34:09,660 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 2: good example is, oh, geez, Cole Escuela, I believe is 566 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,110 Speaker 2: his name, who created the O'Mary costume. play on Broadway. 567 00:34:18,330 --> 00:34:18,489 Speaker 1: Yeah. 568 00:34:18,590 --> 00:34:22,630 Speaker 2: Um, a very hilarious kind of lampooning of Mary Todd Lincoln. Um, he, 569 00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:24,910 Speaker 2: or they, I'm not quite sure what pronouns they use, um, 570 00:34:25,390 --> 00:34:28,109 Speaker 2: appeared at the Met Gala. I want to say wearing, uh, a, 571 00:34:28,290 --> 00:34:32,930 Speaker 2: a gorgeous kind of formal, uh, dinner attire that might've 572 00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:36,340 Speaker 2: been at home in like a starlet, you know, of 573 00:34:36,910 --> 00:34:38,550 Speaker 2: the 1930s or 40s. Cool. 574 00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: And as we're wrapping up, we said we're, we're going 575 00:34:41,060 --> 00:34:43,219 Speaker 1: to keep this one a little bit short because it 576 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: is giving us tuxedo envy. Um, As we're wrapping up, 577 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: I've got to ask, Noel, just between us, do you 578 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: think accounting would pay for us to have tuxes if 579 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: we made a good enough excuse? 580 00:34:57,550 --> 00:34:59,750 Speaker 2: Well, Ben, we didn't talk about this aspect of it, 581 00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:06,490 Speaker 2: but oftentimes there's a whole rental world built around tuxes 582 00:35:06,530 --> 00:35:08,790 Speaker 2: and all places that their whole deal is they rent 583 00:35:08,890 --> 00:35:12,339 Speaker 2: tuxes because they are kind of expensive and you don't 584 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 2: really need them particularly often. 585 00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 586 00:35:15,020 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 587 00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:19,140 Speaker 1: And usually, now that I think about it, they're for happy, 588 00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: formal occasions that are often relatively rare in somebody's life. 589 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,630 Speaker 1: I don't associate tuxedos with funerals. That's an equally formal occasion. 590 00:35:28,650 --> 00:35:33,590 Speaker 1: It's just very sad. Oh, for sure. Something about the 591 00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:35,190 Speaker 1: tux makes it feel too happy. 592 00:35:35,350 --> 00:35:35,890 Speaker 2: Too festive. 593 00:35:36,330 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: Too festive for a funeral. Yes, we've got to get 594 00:35:39,780 --> 00:35:43,210 Speaker 1: into tuxedo rentals. Of course, it makes... It makes so 595 00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:47,330 Speaker 1: much sense, especially if you're going to prom, you're in 596 00:35:47,410 --> 00:35:50,450 Speaker 1: high school. You don't have tuxedo money, if you're most people, 597 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,580 Speaker 1: or if you're a parent of a kid going to prom. 598 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: Why are you going to buy this kid a tuxedo? 599 00:35:57,140 --> 00:35:58,959 Speaker 1: They're probably going to grow out of it, right? 600 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,299 Speaker 2: Well, Ben, it makes a lot of sense, but it was, 601 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,259 Speaker 2: in fact, the Great Depression that kind of ushered in 602 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,350 Speaker 2: the golden age of tuxedo fashion. rentals in 1936 the 603 00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:13,670 Speaker 2: gingus brothers not of gang just con uh opened a 604 00:36:13,710 --> 00:36:16,980 Speaker 2: store devoted exclusively to formal wear rentals and helped establish 605 00:36:17,060 --> 00:36:21,940 Speaker 2: specialized tuxedo rental shops as a very potentially successful business 606 00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 2: model and in the 40s and 50s the modern version 607 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:30,430 Speaker 2: of tuxedo rental businesses began to take place specifically around 608 00:36:30,489 --> 00:36:35,050 Speaker 2: wedding industry type stuff and other formal events uh oftentimes 609 00:36:35,090 --> 00:36:39,690 Speaker 2: would operate alongside florists and other specialty businesses like that. 610 00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:44,370 Speaker 1: Bridal showers, bridal stores and stuff. But not at funerals. 611 00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:48,760 Speaker 1: Not at funerals because the tuxedo is too happy for 612 00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: the funeral. But folks, we are so happy you joined 613 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,700 Speaker 1: us today. Just full disclosure, since we are an audio podcast, 614 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,529 Speaker 1: neither of us are wearing tuxedos right now, but that 615 00:37:00,550 --> 00:37:04,460 Speaker 1: would have been so funny just for us. Still unnecessary because, 616 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, it takes a while to put it on. 617 00:37:06,180 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: It's a whole thing. 618 00:37:08,140 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: And I will wrap up. Yeah, Ben, I don't own one. 619 00:37:10,780 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 2: I don't see myself renting one anytime soon. Here's the thing, though, Ben. 620 00:37:14,340 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 2: I mean, there are certain occasions where you could probably 621 00:37:18,940 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: go either way. Like, if you have the confidence, you 622 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,799 Speaker 2: can pull off, like, a nice-looking suit and you just 623 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:26,860 Speaker 2: wear the bow tie. I mean, who's going to call 624 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:29,540 Speaker 2: you for not having a satin stripe down your pant leg? 625 00:37:29,620 --> 00:37:32,370 Speaker 2: Just a jerk. That would be the curse. But Ben, 626 00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:36,710 Speaker 2: it does turn out that today the tuxedo rental industry 627 00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:39,489 Speaker 2: generates around 500 million bucks a year. 628 00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:43,890 Speaker 1: Nice. Nice. Maybe we should get into that business of podcasting. 629 00:37:44,350 --> 00:37:46,450 Speaker 1: Doesn't work out. But I think we're on a little 630 00:37:46,489 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: bit of a little bit of a roll with this podcast. 631 00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:51,590 Speaker 2: We're doing all right. Yeah. Yeah. We're nigh on 10 632 00:37:51,590 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 2: years at this point. We did the ninth year anniversary. 633 00:37:55,380 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 2: Maybe we get to go again for the 10th if 634 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:57,500 Speaker 2: we make it that far. 635 00:37:57,910 --> 00:38:00,109 Speaker 1: There we go. We'll buy tuxes for the 10th. Let's 636 00:38:00,270 --> 00:38:00,589 Speaker 1: do it. 637 00:38:00,610 --> 00:38:01,710 Speaker 2: You've heard it here, folks. 638 00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:06,210 Speaker 1: Yeah, big thanks to our super producer, Mr. Max Williams. 639 00:38:06,290 --> 00:38:10,290 Speaker 1: Big thanks to our guest engineer, Noel Brown, and Alex Williams, 640 00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:11,350 Speaker 1: who composed this track. 641 00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:14,890 Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. I bet that guy strikes a dashing 642 00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:17,989 Speaker 2: figure in a tux. As does his brother, Max. Huge 643 00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:20,850 Speaker 2: thanks to Christopher Haciotis and Yves Tchefkos here in spirit. 644 00:38:21,510 --> 00:38:26,010 Speaker 2: Let's see. Jonathan Strickland, The Crewster, A.J. Bahamas Jacobs, The Puzzler. 645 00:38:26,580 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 1: And, of course, huge thanks to our research associate, Natalia, 646 00:38:30,020 --> 00:38:33,580 Speaker 1: for another banging look at the history of fashion. 647 00:38:34,140 --> 00:38:43,800 Speaker 2: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 648 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:47,140 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 649 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,100 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.