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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. You know, one

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Speaker 1: of the subjects that gets asked about often by our

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Speaker 1: listeners is the plant, the drug called cratum or cradum,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought we'd do an episode on that.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious. I don't know a hell of a lot

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Speaker 1: about it, and so I was looking around for who

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Speaker 1: to have on and one of the names that just

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Speaker 1: pops up everywhere, whose name is on you know, probably

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Speaker 1: half of all more of the articles you see being

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Speaker 1: published in the academic literature about creatum is Kirsten Smith.

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Speaker 1: And she's now a postdoctoral fellow at night at the

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Speaker 1: National's Tute on Drug Abuse, and so I asked her

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Speaker 1: to join us. So, you know, Kirsten, thanks very much

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Speaker 1: for coming on Psychoactive. Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to be here. Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: the issue of creatum or Cradham or what do we

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Speaker 1: call it? What's your take on that. I go with

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Speaker 1: the people. So so long as most people using it

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Speaker 1: say creat um, I'm going to pronounce the creatum. And

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Speaker 1: when we get us the change of people who call

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Speaker 1: it crowdham, I'll switch to the camp but grudgingly. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: well I mean I'll tell you so, so I'll try

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Speaker 1: with creatum, I may revert to Cradham. And actually I

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Speaker 1: was having dinner a couple months ago in London with

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Speaker 1: a few friends of mine. One is in Foredom who

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Speaker 1: heads i d PC, the International Drug Policy Consortium, and

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Speaker 1: who's half Taie, and she said, Ethan, forget creatum, credum,

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Speaker 1: it's creaton. That's what people call it in Thailand. Um,

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Speaker 1: So let me just start by saying, obviously, this is

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Speaker 1: another one of these plants, you know, like coca, like

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Speaker 1: cot right, that is growing that has been growing outside

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Speaker 1: the United States, in this case in um Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 1: Right for Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia. I think Miamar, Papua New

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Speaker 1: Guinea um that's been indigenous there. And what can you

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Speaker 1: tell us, I mean, is this something that goes back

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Speaker 1: thousands of years or just a hundred or two hundred years?

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Speaker 1: Thought us in on that. Yeah, it's a really unteresting

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Speaker 1: story because when create I'm appeared in the United States,

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Speaker 1: people are like, oh, this is a novel substance, and

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Speaker 1: you know, to the United States it's new. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of like anocentric and relatively speaking, it's not

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Speaker 1: new um in other place. So you're correct, m Southeast

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Speaker 1: Asia is where it's indigenous too. We do know that

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Speaker 1: at least in the early nine hundreds there were some

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Speaker 1: you know, case reports of creative use by Westerners of

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Speaker 1: people you know, indigenous to those regions that you described

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Speaker 1: using it in chewing the leaves primarily, or as a

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Speaker 1: tea or beverage. So we can say for sure it's

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Speaker 1: been documented for a hundred years, but as far as

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Speaker 1: how it's been traditionally used, it's you know, not just

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Speaker 1: similar to many other botanicals that are you know, are

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Speaker 1: indigenous to to regions. So hayin Kelly and effects, trying

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Speaker 1: to reduce fevers, but also and this has been well

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Speaker 1: documented as well, being used as kind of a stimulant

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Speaker 1: for people who are doing pretty harsh labor out in

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Speaker 1: fields and oftentimes in that since it's chewed, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it can be prepared with fresh leaves in in juice

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Speaker 1: or tea. So the reasons for use are kind of

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Speaker 1: like any psycho active substance or botanical in that people

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Speaker 1: are using it in those areas to self treat medical

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Speaker 1: symptoms UM and substance use UH disorders, So people who

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Speaker 1: have been addicted to heroin, methaphetamine, an alcohol. Those are

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Speaker 1: the three we've seen most often in um Asia, where

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Speaker 1: creative has been used to basically substitute those harsher drugs

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Speaker 1: in the region there. If you're looking at who's using

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Speaker 1: it there in Southeast Asia, is it like working class people?

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Speaker 1: Is a college students? Is a young people? Is it

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Speaker 1: the elderly? I can speak to the fact that it

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Speaker 1: is used far more often by males than females, and

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Speaker 1: that the average age of uth initiation is typically older

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Speaker 1: than other substances like nicotine or alcohol or heroin or methophetamine,

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Speaker 1: and it seems to be that a lot more people

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Speaker 1: in rural areas are using it. But as far as

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Speaker 1: any sort of a no demographic breakdown, I can't speak

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Speaker 1: the right. And so now we look at the creater

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Speaker 1: that's being sold in the US. Is that basically being

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Speaker 1: imported from these countries in Southeast Asia primarily? Yes, So

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Speaker 1: that's the short answer most people, and this has been

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Speaker 1: born out in the majority of the survey data. Most

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Speaker 1: creative coming in the United States is from larger vendors

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Speaker 1: that have changed over time. We have some entities that

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Speaker 1: are are larger than others, a lot of mid level players.

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Speaker 1: So people who I would say, you know, they do

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Speaker 1: almost exclusively online sales. They get it from their connection

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Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia and then they package it and promote

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Speaker 1: it and sell it here in the United States, either

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Speaker 1: direct to consumer sales on the internet or through wholesale

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Speaker 1: into shops that are then retail shops at gas stations,

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Speaker 1: head shops, tobacco smoke shops, babe stores, and I expect

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Speaker 1: to see it in other types of stores as well

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Speaker 1: in the future. Well, I'm christ I have to tell

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Speaker 1: you so in anticipation of your being on Psychoactive what

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Speaker 1: I did right before the show was I walked around

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Speaker 1: the corner where a new Creatum CBD shot just opened

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Speaker 1: on like seventy one and Amsterdam, just a five minute

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Speaker 1: walk from my apartment, and I bought some capsules and

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Speaker 1: a chocolate bar and a tea. And so while we're

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Speaker 1: having this conversation, UM drinking some Creatum tea. So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna see if it has any effect on me by

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Speaker 1: the end of the show. But uh, you know, I

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Speaker 1: have to say it doesn't taste that good. Um. It's dank,

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Speaker 1: but not in a good way like dank, because usual

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Speaker 1: I usually said that stank in a good way. This

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Speaker 1: is dank in a not as palatable way. It is

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Speaker 1: very pungent, is how I like to describe. If you

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Speaker 1: break those capsules open and smell the raw flat matter,

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Speaker 1: it's um kind of funky. Yeah. And I purposely didn't

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Speaker 1: buy the straight out powder because I figured with a

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Speaker 1: capsule you can barely taste it. Here we don't have

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Speaker 1: fresh leaves, so any tea is going to be with

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Speaker 1: dry leaves, or it's going to be already packaged in

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Speaker 1: some kind of energy shot looking extract or juice like thing.

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Speaker 1: But over there they can actually brew the fresh leaves.

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Speaker 1: We don't have people growing creatum trees in the United

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Speaker 1: States in their backyard. In mass I've heard some anecdotes

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Speaker 1: of a few people trying to grow creatum trees, and

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Speaker 1: even if they do, it doesn't mean that they're going

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Speaker 1: to get ones that have leaves that are matragen in

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Speaker 1: varying um at first, which I should say that's the

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Speaker 1: alkaloid that has a lot of the non psychoactive activity.

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Speaker 1: But as far as the importing itself, I mean, by

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Speaker 1: the time it gets the United States, who knows what's

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Speaker 1: going on because we have all of these different vendors,

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Speaker 1: and then they're going to be handling it in the

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Speaker 1: ways that get to consumers differentially. So we have some

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Speaker 1: vendors who might be trying to just take one or

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Speaker 1: two alkaloids and put it into an extract or. Oftentimes

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Speaker 1: you'll see if you go online, especially are are the

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Speaker 1: packets of pulverized plant matter or capsules that have the

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Speaker 1: plant matter. And I think part of this is a

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Speaker 1: function of just how Americans probably want to consume there

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Speaker 1: their creatum. That's not to say people don't consume it

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Speaker 1: by brewing tea. I knew I've seen people drink creatum tea.

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Speaker 1: There are there are bars that are selling freshly made tea,

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Speaker 1: but I think a lot of other people just want

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Speaker 1: to have the convenience of some kind of powder or

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Speaker 1: capsule or something like that. Let me ask you a

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Speaker 1: few questions about that. So, so, for you've mentioned matragine,

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Speaker 1: I think that's the pronunciation um a number of times, right,

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Speaker 1: And it sounds to me that like there's dozens of

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Speaker 1: alkaloids in creatum, that matragy is the key one. And

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Speaker 1: the way I imagine it is like, you know, matragy

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Speaker 1: is to create a more or less what th HC

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Speaker 1: is to cannabis or nicotine is to tobacco. Um in

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Speaker 1: the sense that it's the dominant variable in this stuff.

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Speaker 1: It's the principal cycleactive one. But that there are these

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Speaker 1: other alk lloyds that you know, color the picture a bit.

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Speaker 1: Is that accurate? Um? Or would you change what I said?

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Speaker 1: We don't know yet, right, So it seems like, okay,

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Speaker 1: here's this leave the percentage of alkaloid content. More of

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Speaker 1: it is metrogany, right, But that doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: it's doing all the heavy lifting. So seven hydroxy um

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Speaker 1: matrogyny is also it's a very small amount that is

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Speaker 1: in leaves, and it's a metabolite of metrogany, but it

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Speaker 1: does heavy lifting, right, So just because there's more of

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Speaker 1: something doesn't necessarily mean it is the dominant thing. I

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Speaker 1: like to use the kind of metaphor that Christopher Curty,

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Speaker 1: my colleague at Florida, has said in some of his talks,

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Speaker 1: which I think is very succinct and and elegant, which

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Speaker 1: is to say that this leave is kind of like

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Speaker 1: a symphony. Right, So we have the symphony with all

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Speaker 1: these different instruments playing different notes. We know from the

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Speaker 1: pre clinical and when I say that, I just mean

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Speaker 1: the animal on human animal work. How some of these

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Speaker 1: act in isolation, so that doesn't translate to a lot

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Speaker 1: of human use because most people are taking things that

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Speaker 1: probably have more than one alkaloid. That's changing a bit,

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Speaker 1: but at least in the short time it's been in

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Speaker 1: the US, people have been taking more diversified products than

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Speaker 1: more isolated products in terms of the alkaloid content. So

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Speaker 1: we don't know. For instance, maybe if we only take

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Speaker 1: metrogenin and you know, give some purified form to humans,

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Speaker 1: how that is going to produce an effect when in

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Speaker 1: reality it's always been mixed with something, right, And if

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Speaker 1: we want to understand these alkaloids, it's important to look

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Speaker 1: at them in isolation, but also to look at them

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Speaker 1: in combination, and we really don't have clearly. With human studies,

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Speaker 1: we don't have any of that. But with the animals,

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Speaker 1: we we do see that matrogeny has very specific effects

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Speaker 1: at certain doses in certain species in certain routes of administration.

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Speaker 1: But we know that there's four alkaloids that act as

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Speaker 1: seevenly partial agonists AMU opioid receptors. However, there are at

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Speaker 1: least two of these alkaloids plus several others acted delta

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Speaker 1: kappa opioid receptors as well as mut opriod receptors as

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Speaker 1: well as serotonin and dopamine and allergic So there is

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Speaker 1: a lot going on with this leave And to Chris's metaphor,

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Speaker 1: you know, we don't know the note or the tenor,

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Speaker 1: or the tune or the tempo of all of these

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Speaker 1: different instruments yet um let alone how they work in concert.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that that's where we we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of work to do right now. That what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying is that affair been about what we know

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Speaker 1: or think we know is actually coming from surveys. And

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Speaker 1: then I saw, you know, there's that website errol wod

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Speaker 1: e r O w I D, which is a spectacular

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Speaker 1: website for people sharing information about, you know, their experience

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Speaker 1: of various psychoactive substances. So it seems like there's a

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Speaker 1: growing amount of survey stuff out there. Can you sum

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Speaker 1: up the state of knowledge or aareness from these surveys

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Speaker 1: to date or in terms of the surveys you're working on,

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Speaker 1: is there stuff that you can share? Ye? You're correct,

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Speaker 1: We've gathered data that suggests okay, yes, there's a self

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Speaker 1: treatment narrative. People are absolutely using to decrease their anxiety,

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Speaker 1: to decrease their depression symptoms, either in combination with medically

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Speaker 1: prescribed drugs or because they don't want to take certain

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Speaker 1: prescribed drugs because they couldn't tolerate them. And um also

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Speaker 1: because they tried pupen orphe and tried methodone or tried

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Speaker 1: to get all the alcohol, tried to stop using many

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Speaker 1: different drugs and they fell in creative and it seemed

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Speaker 1: to be what was a a bridge out of a

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Speaker 1: relationship with drugs that they didn't like, and that it

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Speaker 1: for many people was very effective and for other people

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Speaker 1: it was not as effective. And clearly we don't have

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Speaker 1: controlled studies, but I do think it's important to listen

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Speaker 1: to what people are saying, and so one of the

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Speaker 1: things we did after I came tonight to is just

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Speaker 1: look at Reddit data and what people are talking about

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Speaker 1: in these creatum subreddits. I have to say it was

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Speaker 1: really refreshing to read it after having only looked at

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Speaker 1: survey data that was being published, or only looking at

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Speaker 1: case reports, which I have to say, the case reports

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Speaker 1: are very valuable, and if you do a search for

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Speaker 1: case reports related to creat Um, you need to really

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Speaker 1: be cautious and how you read those case reports because

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Speaker 1: they are often written by people who don't know anything

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Speaker 1: about creat Um. So I will save you that diet

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Speaker 1: tribe other than to say that the case reports have

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Speaker 1: been a great source of information, but they're also a

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Speaker 1: very narrow, narrow viewpoint and incomplete pictures. So after digging

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Speaker 1: around in case reports and the survey data, reading what

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Speaker 1: people actually have to say reminded me of like, you

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Speaker 1: know what, why do I even care about this, which

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Speaker 1: is that people are really trying to have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with the substance that improves their life. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the tape take away in a very

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Speaker 1: crude forum, and you know it informed quite frankly, the

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Speaker 1: Reddit findings informed how I wrote some of the questions

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Speaker 1: for this survey that we did shortly thereafter, which we're

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Speaker 1: in the process of getting out into papers. Right now.

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Speaker 1: You've said that you yourself have not been much of

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Speaker 1: a creatim consumer, but you've been open about the fact,

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Speaker 1: and this makes you a little bit unusual at NIDA

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Speaker 1: and in the research world. My understanding is that you

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Speaker 1: yourself went through a period when you were younger of

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Speaker 1: you know, being in trouble and maybe doing dependent upon

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Speaker 1: heroin and and what have you. I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could just share your story there, I mean, how did

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Speaker 1: that come about? And how long were you involved in

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Speaker 1: a problematic relationship with heroin or other legal drugs, and

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Speaker 1: how did you get out of it? You know, it's

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Speaker 1: something I didn't talk about a lot when I was younger.

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Speaker 1: It's it's very inelegant how I refer to myself because

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Speaker 1: I'm just like, well, I'm a person who used to

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Speaker 1: inject heroin every day and was addicted to it. But

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Speaker 1: I don't do the Twall stuff stuff, though I've I've

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Speaker 1: tried that. I grew up in a fairly averagely dysfunctional,

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Speaker 1: eccentric house. I'm from Knoxville, Tennessee, and so it was

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Speaker 1: just a normal college town. And you know, I didn't

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Speaker 1: have any trauma as a child beyond normal American trauma.

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Speaker 1: And just I was a very entitled, kind of lower

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Speaker 1: middle class, suburban white kid, and I was very curious.

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Speaker 1: And even when I was really young, I knew I

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Speaker 1: wanted to inject heroin because I saw it in pulp

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Speaker 1: fiction and it looked really, really, really fun, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, I'm gonna do that one day. And in Knoxville,

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Speaker 1: it's not like the heroine capital of the world. It

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Speaker 1: never has been. So Knoxville, though it's technically in Central Appalachia,

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Speaker 1: it's still very much a college, suburban I kind of town.

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Speaker 1: And so it's like cannabis, cocaine, pills, psychedelics, alcohol. So

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Speaker 1: I did the cannabis, you know, tried cocaine, tried psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: of course, alcohol, things like that, and then prescription of

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Speaker 1: opoids right, So it was morphine. I was sixteen years

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Speaker 1: old and someone injected me with morphine. And then when

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen, that's when oxycotton made its real debut,

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Speaker 1: and oxycotton became much more widely available, and so that

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Speaker 1: came first, and then heroin came after. It started off

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Speaker 1: social and recreational and all of this stuff. I was

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Speaker 1: a server full time, went to school at community college,

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Speaker 1: but like just wasn't excelling, you know, I was just

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Speaker 1: I wasn't on the street. I was, I guess by

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Speaker 1: some standards, I was a highly functioning addicted person. By

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Speaker 1: other standards, I was not meeting the expectations of someone

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Speaker 1: with my upbringing and you know, socio economic status. And

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Speaker 1: I was forced into rehab when I was nineteen. I

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Speaker 1: absolutely didn't want to go and that was a twenty

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Speaker 1: day and patient and then after that I just continued

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Speaker 1: about my business and just you know, hit it from

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Speaker 1: my family better. So I guess aged twenty two twenty

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Speaker 1: three is when my boyfriend at the time and I

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Speaker 1: were We still had jobs, but we were absolutely ready

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Speaker 1: to stop. And I told my family I want to

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Speaker 1: go to treatment again, and of course my steffdad caused

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Speaker 1: his insurance company, and oh no, you know this is

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Speaker 1: before the Patient Protection Affordable Care Act. Because you have

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Speaker 1: already been jury have one time, you don't get to

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Speaker 1: go again. So I detox at my parents house and

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Speaker 1: they kind of like guarded me. And then after I

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Speaker 1: left and I went back to my apartment, everything went

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Speaker 1: back to how it was, and I couldn't get into

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Speaker 1: a residential program, which is what I really needed and wanted,

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Speaker 1: and so we kept using and then we I mean,

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Speaker 1: this is not a secret, I'll just go ahead and

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Speaker 1: say it. We robbed two banks and went to federal prison,

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Speaker 1: and that is how I got sober. I got prison

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Speaker 1: instead of buprenorphine. And that's how it ended for me,

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Speaker 1: or how it changed, I should say. I will say that.

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Speaker 1: You know, even now and I've done work, associate programs

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Speaker 1: are available to incarcerated people. The lack of treatment, humane

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Speaker 1: treatment that is informed, you know, informed consent and treatment

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Speaker 1: options is still utterly appalling and almost borders on a

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Speaker 1: human rights abuse issue. And I'm not saying we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: have consequences for people who do illegal things that are

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Speaker 1: a menace to society, right like I robbed it, but

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Speaker 1: It's not like I was innocent, so I needed some

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Speaker 1: sort of intervention or punishment, call it what you will.

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Speaker 1: But the degree to which the facilities that people are

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Speaker 1: aware housed in lack actual programs to help them is

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Speaker 1: really amazing. It's just amazing. So I would say that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I am extremely fortunate. But I also did not go

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Speaker 1: to like summer camp either. It was really not a

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Speaker 1: treatment oriented place to say the least. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: would you say that your past experience with drugs and

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Speaker 1: incarceration impacted who you are as a researcher and the

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Speaker 1: work you're doing today. The answer to that is yes,

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Speaker 1: to know. So, on the one hand, I am very

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Speaker 1: much a um hard scientists, and you know, we need

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Speaker 1: objective measures, we need validated instruments, we need validity of

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Speaker 1: every kind, insert anything, and I'm pretty much on board.

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Speaker 1: That said, I think because of my past and also

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Speaker 1: because of my training and social science and social work,

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Speaker 1: I am oriented also too, and more open and receptive

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Speaker 1: to the fact that we need these objective measures, we

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Speaker 1: need basic science, we need all of this very hard science. However,

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Speaker 1: if you don't talk to a person who uses drugs,

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Speaker 1: whether it's you know, a psychoactive planet creative or cocaine

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Speaker 1: or heroine or anything. You really are missing the bigger picture,

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Speaker 1: and you're missing a big part of what will help

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Speaker 1: you inform all of those validated instruments and the types

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Speaker 1: of research questions you ask, the types of trials you do.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even be here had it not been for

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Speaker 1: an acting with people in the real world. You use drugs, right,

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Speaker 1: So it's it's you need both. And I think that

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Speaker 1: pre clinical scientists and even clinical researchers would do well

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Speaker 1: to have conversations with people and qualitative work. The study

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be doing is very rigorous. It

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Speaker 1: has many objective measures. But if you don't have subjective

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Speaker 1: measures as an outcome variable or as part of the

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Speaker 1: data collection process, then you have an incomplete picture. And

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Speaker 1: you know we're gonna be doing qualitative work as well,

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Speaker 1: in addition to as saying creative products. So you need everything,

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00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,919
Speaker 1: and if you think you don't, then you're misguided. I

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Speaker 1: hate to say, well, you know, because I think I

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Speaker 1: first heard about you. I had just been a guest

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Speaker 1: a few months back on a podcast that's done hosted

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Speaker 1: by Creative Science, an organization is very committed to trying

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Speaker 1: to put out accurate information about this, and the podcast

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Speaker 1: host had recommended you is a good guest for Psychoactive.

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Speaker 1: But when he then sent me a list of the

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Speaker 1: survey they had done, and you know, just scrolling through

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Speaker 1: the reports and seeing some of the other stuff of

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Speaker 1: these sorties, you see people you know ofttimes writing back

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Speaker 1: with these remarkable you know, how it helped them get

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Speaker 1: off you put a heroin be habit behind them, or

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Speaker 1: helped them when they relapse to sort of cut that

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Speaker 1: relapse off and get better, or it helped with withdrawal,

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Speaker 1: or it helped him dealing with a very serious pain

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Speaker 1: condition where other opioids or other sorts of things weren't working,

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Speaker 1: or maybe sometimes anxiety or depression. Let's Betty over Well mean,

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Speaker 1: when you hear people describe how transformative this has been

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Speaker 1: and how helpful it's been, now you also find people

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Speaker 1: saying this is boring and it did absolutely nothing for me,

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Speaker 1: and I'm utterly unimpressed. And that's fine. But for those

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Speaker 1: that it has been helpful for during the time when

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Speaker 1: we have very poor treatment options for people, and um

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are very unsatisfied with the treatment

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Speaker 1: options and there's a lot of stigma of course, and

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Speaker 1: getting treatment for substance use disorder or chronic pain, even

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00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: as highly undertreated and under diagnosed. So you have people

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00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 1: who are sometimes desperate and they find Creatum and it

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00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: seems to be what they've been looking for. And it's

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00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: so true to just many substances, which is that you

390
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: know something can be beneficial but also have some side effects.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of the people who you know, we

392
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 1: read the accounts of they seem to say, Okay, I

393
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Speaker 1: take this every day. It's part of my life, and

394
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: I feel like I need to take it, and I

395
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: know that if I don't stop taking it, I'm gonna

396
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 1: not feel great. I'm probably gonna have some withdraw symptoms.

397
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: But by and large, the withdraw symptoms from Creatum seem

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00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: to be well, no, they don't seem to be They're

399
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Speaker 1: mild to moderate. So I would say that there are

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Speaker 1: estimates of how many people are using Creatum or have

401
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: used Creatum or daily regular users. I don't think we

402
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: really know, but we do know that the sales in

403
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: the industry is growing rapidly. If that's an indication, We'll

404
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:13,400
Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this ad So, Kirsten,

405
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: you know, one thing among the people are sort of

406
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Speaker 1: casually using um creative now buying in the shops, using

407
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 1: it like CBD or coffee or whatever, and the people

408
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 1: are using it to deal with chronic pain, um or

409
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Speaker 1: or with addiction. Are there major differences are are there?

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Speaker 1: Are the latter group taking it at much higher doses

411
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,399
Speaker 1: or with greater frequency? Or how much variability is is

412
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: there in that? So one key point to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind is that many, I would say nearly all people

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Speaker 1: that are using Creative are reporting, at least that we've

415
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: looked at understable reporting more than one used motivation. Right,

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00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of overlap between having a drug

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00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: addiction or having a prescription of dependence and then chronic

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00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: pain and then depression anxiety. So when people are given

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Speaker 1: a list of you know, to check off all of

420
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: the motivations for use, they're checking off many, many motivations.

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00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: And so we can't cleanly separate people of like only

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00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: for this, only for that, because usually it's they're using

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00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: it for multiple reasons. So that said, what I can

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Speaker 1: say is that on average, people who regularly use are

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00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 1: using two to four times a day, So let's say

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Speaker 1: three times a day. They're dosing three times a day

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00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: on average, and the amount um it varies, of course,

428
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: because you can measure in cups of tea, com measure

429
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 1: in grahams or spoonfuls or table spoons um. But the

430
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: ranges aren't super wide, and we've looked at you know,

431
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,479
Speaker 1: higher doses and lower doses that can achieve effects, and

432
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: doses that are too much, and dose doses that are

433
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 1: ineffectual and things like that, and the range is not dramatic.

434
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: But typically people who use regularly are using to you

435
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: to three times a day, sometimes four times a day daily,

436
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: and how they're taking it, it depends on the person.

437
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: But the route of administration is always oral. You cannot

438
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: inject creatum, you can't stort it, so it's always gonna

439
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: be an oral route of administration. But we do have

440
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: people who report using your thirteen times a day, and

441
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: you have people reporting using like clockwork only three days

442
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: a week, only before work because they have to stand

443
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: on their feet at work all day. So it depends

444
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: kind of on the person's situation. But I would say

445
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: that the recreational users there's a lot more variability, and

446
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, you know, in frequency of use versus the

447
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: people who are using as a self treatment, that's going

448
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: to be more like regimented. And as of right now,

449
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: create and withdraw symptoms tend to be very similar to

450
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: opod with draw symptoms. That said, many withdraw symptoms are

451
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: going to be very similar across drugs, right, So if

452
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: you're if you're withdrawing from benzos or alcohol or cocaine

453
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: or I mean, you're going to feel irritable, right like,

454
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what shruck it is, You're gonna be

455
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: a little irritable. But other symptoms are more characteristics of

456
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: opioid withdraw. But again, it depends on the symptom, it

457
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: depends on the dose. So we do have a very

458
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: crude signal of dose dependent withdraw effects. Meaning if you're

459
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: taking higher doses more often over a longer period of time,

460
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 1: then chances are you're going to experience more intense withdrawal symptoms.

461
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 1: And then if you're taking less creative intermittently for a

462
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: shorter period of time, that's that's the signal we have. Oh,

463
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: by the way, how are you feeling. How's that creative

464
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: treating you? You know, I just took another sip. You

465
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: may have heard the ice cube there. I'm not enjoying

466
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: the taste of it, I'll tell you that. And I

467
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: don't know that I'm feeling any effect from it as yet.

468
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: But then again, I'm very focused on our conversation, so

469
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,239
Speaker 1: we'll see what happens after. Yeah. Well, if I were

470
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: to sum up what I'm what I'm hearing from you,

471
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: and also I've been reading it, sounds like there's maybe

472
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: what I'm crudely, one could break it into two camps.

473
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: And there's people dealing with really serious issues around paying addiction, depression,

474
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: and those who are dealing with lower levels of you know,

475
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: maybe anxiety or or you know, energy focus, what have you.

476
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 1: And that maybe the market for the latter group is

477
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: big and growing big or very rapidly because of the

478
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: rapid expansion of you know, Creatum's reputation and these stores,

479
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: and that within all of that, right, I mean, that's

480
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: if there's that spectrum of use, people are reporting a

481
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: lot of positive stuff and at the same time people

482
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: are talking about having sometimes negative consequences, right, having a

483
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: hard time stopping using it. Oh, maybe not so hard

484
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: at stopping opioids. People feeling nauseous, people getting sick, people

485
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: you know, having other sorts of weird physical reactions that

486
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: may or may not be connected to the creatum they

487
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 1: were using. It might be connected to other drugs they

488
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: were using, or some other health condition. Um. But that

489
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: it's a very complicated sort of portrait of what's going

490
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: on out there with only a small amount of information,

491
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: where a lot of what's emerging is suggesting really interesting

492
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: and promising potential and possibilities, um in terms of self

493
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: treatment for depression, addiction, what have you. Uh, And that

494
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: those appear to be greater than the negative side if

495
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: you look at this more from a large a large

496
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,439
Speaker 1: you know, large lens. Yes, no, Yeah, did I do

497
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: it justice? You know? I believe we should listen to

498
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: people take what they say mostly on faith unless we

499
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: have some reason not to, and believe, you know. And

500
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: I would say that a lot of drug research and

501
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: ad dictionary research, the validity of self report is actually

502
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: quite good, you know. And we should keep in mind

503
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: that these large online surveys are self selected. To so

504
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: to sit down and take an hour, hour and a

505
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: half long online survey that is unpaid, you have to

506
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: either have a really favorable attitude or really unfavorable attitude

507
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: to want to do that, and so um and and

508
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: the fact that what we've seen from the large on

509
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: line surveys tends towards the more positive beneficial effects from

510
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: Creative as opposed to you know, adverse effects. Then people

511
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: might say, and I've said, you know, we need to

512
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: be cautious with you know, how much you know, you

513
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: know what we really think we knew about this given

514
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: that we have we have a possible self selection biased

515
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: So one thing that we did with our small recontact survey,

516
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: and I'll say the sample size is small, but we

517
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: identified people who had ever used Creative in their lifetime

518
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: on a completely unrelated survey, and we recontacted a portion

519
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: of them. And you know, we had a small window

520
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: of time to do this, and we asked a very

521
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 1: comprehensive and they were compensated for their time. But they

522
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: were not all current regular Creative users, meaning that we

523
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: had people who would use Creative and quit. We had

524
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: people who had may be used a few times. We

525
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: had people who were regular users and still were regular users.

526
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: And so we had a smaller but a much more

527
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: diverse sample. And with those data, what we've seen it

528
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: kind of maps onto what you've said, and we saw

529
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: what al Garcia Romeyo found in his larger online survey,

530
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: which were really low rates of meeting diagnostic criteria threshold

531
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: for a creative use disorder, and that we found a

532
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: larger proportion than he did, but it was still not

533
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: a majority, and it was mostly mild and moderate. Now

534
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: that's all fine and well, but the real meat of

535
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: it is when you look at specific symptoms that clinicians

536
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: used to diagnose a substance use disorder, and if anyone

537
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: wants to go online and look these up, I think

538
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: it is helpful because you see that there's many different

539
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: facets that are used in coming into this diagnosis. And

540
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: I was not surprised to see that looking at individual symptoms,

541
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: pollerance and withdraw symptoms were well represented and they were

542
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 1: the most widely endorsed. However, impairments and psychosocial functioning were

543
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: not prevalent. When they're not the majority of people, right

544
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: and for and who is a trained clinician, that is

545
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: significant to me because when I think about helping people

546
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 1: or what we need to do um to get, you know,

547
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: to intervene if a person's relationship with drugs becomes problematic.

548
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: It's that psychosocial impairment that is is kind of key,

549
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: like are they are they putting their kids in the

550
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: closet and neglecting to go to work and you know,

551
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: pawnying their grandmother's TV to go get creatium. And that's

552
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: not what we're seeing here. So it's a different animal

553
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: than some other drugs, especially given that a majority of

554
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: the sample had at one point used creat um regularly,

555
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: meaning it's not like the everyone had just tried it once.

556
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: The other way we assessed this was by asking people, Okay,

557
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: we've established that you get acute effects from your dose,

558
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: you know most of the time. We asked all these

559
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: questions about effect and duration of effects. And because one

560
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: thing David Epstein, my mentor, wanted to know is does

561
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: create um for people who take it regularly enough? Does

562
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: it act like an antidepressant over time where you can

563
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: take it every day and not feel a psychoactive effect

564
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: or do you achieve a psychoactive effect every time? And

565
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: I told him it was definitely the latter, and he

566
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: was like, all right, let's find out, and and it

567
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: was most people felt in acute effect of their use

568
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: of their dose when they took it, even if they

569
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: had been dosing for a long period of time. And

570
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: we asked them, okay, so you feel an effect, you're

571
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: you're taking this regularly. Are these effects helpful in meeting

572
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: your daily obligations? And are they in keeping with your

573
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: meeting your daily obligations? Are they hindrance all? You know?

574
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: We asked. They had many response options and the two

575
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,959
Speaker 1: most you know, highly endorsed options, where yes, creative is

576
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: both helpful to meeting my daily effects and it's in

577
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: keeping with my daily obligations. Right, it's not impairing my

578
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: daily obligations or my ability to meet them. And for

579
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: those people who said that it was helpful in meeting

580
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: their daily obligations, that's like a cup of coffee, right,

581
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: Like when I drink my coffee in the morning, it

582
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: is like me, I'm taking a psychoactive draw. It's not

583
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: only you know, not impairing my daily obligations. It's helping

584
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: me meet my my roles and responsibilities because I do

585
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: better work when I've had my coffee. The second, almost

586
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: equally endorsed option was, you know, it doesn't help me

587
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: meet my daily obligations, but it is in keeping with them, right,

588
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: it's not impairing them in any way. And to me,

589
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: that's more like a glass of wine. So like when

590
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: I drink my glass of wine at night, you know,

591
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: it's not hurting my ability to function and fulfill my

592
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: daily roles and obligations. But I'm also not saying that

593
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: it's you know, helping me fulfill them either. It's just

594
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: the thing I do that I am wind with. Creating

595
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: is very complex pharmacologically, So I'm not trying to say

596
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: we should consider create them to be like a cup

597
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: of coffee or like a glass of wine. But as

598
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: far as drugs, set and stuttying and how people use

599
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: drugs and all of these you know or psychoactive substances,

600
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: we are seeing at least a signal and again more

601
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: work absolutely must be done, but we are seeing a

602
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: signal based on self report that this is more of

603
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: a substance or a product that is in keeping with

604
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: people's daily lives than a hindrance to it. Again, on

605
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: the whole let me jump here into the politics of

606
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: this thing, because I don't know if I told you this,

607
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: but you know, I had barely been paying attention to

608
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: create them while I was running Drug Policy Alliance. And

609
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: then something happened in sixteen, which was the d e

610
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: A announced that there were these problems with Creatum and

611
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: that they wanted to zap it into Schedule one and

612
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,560
Speaker 1: do it quite precipitously. The fact of the d e

613
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: A just kind of abusing its legal administrative powers to

614
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: basically prohibit something that was probably used was offensive to

615
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: our core principles. So we put out an alert to

616
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 1: our two or fifty thousand email members the way we

617
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: some do around marijuana legislation or opioid issues or you

618
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: know your name, of the whole range of things that

619
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: DPA was dealing with, and I and my colleagues were stunned,

620
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: cursedon I mean, we got a response like we we thought,

621
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: like people would barely notice this, who's paying attention on

622
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: our lists to creative. In fact, we got more responses

623
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: to that email blast than almost any other email blast

624
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 1: we had ever done, maybe one or two marijuana one

625
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: one on the Rave Act and m d m A

626
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: twenty years ago. I mean, huge numbers coming in and

627
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: people outraged about the d e A and people reporting

628
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: their personal stories about hey, you know, I'd still be

629
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be dead from fenital now i'd be addicted.

630
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: But but you know, the creative saved my life where

631
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: I was dealing with this or pain, or my doctor

632
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: wanted me on you know, oxy content, but this stuff

633
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: work better, I mean, one after another after another. And

634
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: so with that result in it is, you know, all

635
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I'm in connection with the American Creative

636
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: Association and interacting with them, and we're reaching out to

637
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: legislators and sending out other alerts. And you know, my

638
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: understanding is that when the DA tried to do that,

639
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: what happened was they failed, right that I think fifty

640
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: thousand or more people wrote to uh D e A,

641
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: and members of Congress stepped up and said cut this out,

642
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: and leading researchers said this makes no sense, and so

643
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 1: they backed off. And then the next thing I see

644
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: is it looks like the FDA, the Food and Drug Administration,

645
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: now seems to be on some campaign to try to

646
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: put it in Schedule one or ban it. And and

647
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: so I'm trying to understand why. I mean, they're putting

648
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: out these reports claiming that there were forty creatum related deaths.

649
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: But when you sift through the data, it appears that

650
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: not a single one or maybe one or two involved

651
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: create them alone and almost no strong evidence about calls

652
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: of relationship and using creatum and dying. So you see

653
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: this bullshit coming out of you know, the the organizations

654
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: like d e A and f d A, And what

655
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: I'm trying understand is that just same old drug war,

656
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: redux drug war, you know, bullshit. What exactly is going

657
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: on and what insight can you provide into this sort

658
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: of stuff, especially now that you're working for the nationally

659
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: sort of drug abuse and you're part of the bigger

660
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: drug control establishment. Oh man, I never thought that someone

661
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: say I'm part of the big drug control establishment. I'm

662
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: going to have to get a T shirt made. Um,

663
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: that is hilarious. So, although I do try to stay

664
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: on top of policy and what's going on with creative

665
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 1: in different states, you know, I don't get involved with

666
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: that because it's not really my job and there are

667
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 1: better people equipped to do it anyway. So I am

668
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: low low, low low on the totem pole of of

669
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: the hierarchy, of the of NIDA, of of the federal government.

670
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:27,399
Speaker 1: So d cannot make or should not at least historically,

671
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: I should say, it has not been the case that

672
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: d A does something hasty like schedule a substance that

673
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: is a new substance without sufficient scientific evidence, right, And

674
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: what don't say that again? You're saying d e A

675
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: does not typically do that, has no real history of

676
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: doing that, is not supposed to do that. No, No,

677
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: we know what we know is not supposed to But

678
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: if you look at their history, it seems to me

679
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: one that's oftentimes been fundamentally anti scientific. And I think

680
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: they're they're getting their act together a little bit better

681
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: these days now the cannabis is being legalized in psychelics,

682
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: is getting so much positive press around the research. But

683
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I just saw them as essentially a Neanderthal

684
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: agency when it came to some of these policy issues

685
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: and a whole range of things they were dealing with.

686
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: But I'm very concerned about that. I looked at I

687
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: think I think it was in the night A website,

688
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: the fact page about create um. You know, it did

689
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: not seem to reflect the kind of broad survey data

690
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: and was more broadly known. It seemed to be, you know,

691
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: as they did with marijuana, all about the negative negative, negative,

692
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: negative negative without talking about any of the positive things

693
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: that people are reporting. So, you know, I've seen this

694
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: kind of drug war mentality permeating not just the law

695
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: enforcement agencies but also sometimes f d A, sometimes night

696
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: to um, you know, and I you know, with cretum,

697
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: where it's got this interesting potential to really be helping

698
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: people struggling with addiction, struggling with pain, struggling with depression,

699
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: it seems like there was a kind of knee jerk

700
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: impulse to do you know, the opposite. My takeaway from

701
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: talking with you, Kirsten, and also with the reading I've

702
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: been doing an anticipation of talking with you is that

703
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, this country and maybe the world more broadly,

704
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,800
Speaker 1: would be better off if creatum does not get banned,

705
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: and if the FDA begins to effectively regulate it the

706
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: way it does sort of food supplements or other sorts

707
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: of things, so that way they can keep track of

708
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: adulterated products, you know, they can recall things, they can

709
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: put out notices, they can ban certain things which aren't

710
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: what they are being marketed to be. But that what

711
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: we really need here is truth and labeling, truth and advertising.

712
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 1: Going back to what the original food and Drug Act

713
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: was all about back in the early part of the

714
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: twentieth century, and now that although there are certain risks

715
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 1: associated with that approach, the benefits of that given the

716
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 1: potential of creative and helping people struggling with all sorts

717
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: of medical conditions. You know that that that the benefit

718
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: is going to significantly exceed the cost if we can

719
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: implement a sensible regulatory policy. Would you basically agree with that?

720
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: I think we are scientists have so much work ahead

721
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: of us that in this uncanny value where we have

722
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: enough information, we have enough data, enough self report data,

723
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: enough case reports, we we have enough information to say, Okay,

724
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: let's hold on here and let's just not make a large,

725
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: sweeping policy decision that is not scientifically informed and that

726
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: has very wide ranging public health implications. If people who

727
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: are using creative daily all of a sudden cannot take

728
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 1: their creatum and they are left with what you described

729
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: earlier as a black market. So, given that we don't

730
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,439
Speaker 1: know the full breadth of the public health implications of

731
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: what would happen if creatum was prohibited tomorrow, UM, I

732
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: could say we can speculate like I have already done

733
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: on the show earlier about what might happen for some

734
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: people and to that, and you know, I can I

735
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: can only say that if you know, if I were

736
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: emperor of the world and could do whatever I would,

737
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: I would probably have a whole lot of other systems

738
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: in place to try to get science to reform policy

739
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: better than it does. But I can't speak to any

740
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: specific policy prescription right now other than that we desperately,

741
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: desperately need more data. We need more science, right Kurson, Well,

742
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: I mean I'll say this to your response. Okay, Um,

743
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: maybe I'm a little frustrated because it does feel like

744
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: a hyper cautious way of essentially saying sort of yes,

745
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: you agree. Because ultimately, policy does happen. People make decisions,

746
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: d e A f d A does things. Legislators do

747
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: things people researchers like yourself actually do need to be active.

748
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 1: The level of pessivity and the drug research world for decades,

749
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: the extent to which drug research just kept doing their

750
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 1: thing and doing their research and following politically driven research

751
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: agendas while the drug war got launched that arrested tensive

752
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: millions of people and carcerated millions of people. I actually

753
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 1: think there's a sort of moral and professional obligation for

754
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: researchers to really be stepping out and to be a

755
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: little clear about this. You know, I'll tell you before

756
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: I stop runing Drug Policy Alliance, we launched a program

757
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: that's under the leadership of Jewels Netherlands, you know, an

758
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: Office of Academic Engagement, and it had two objectives. One

759
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: was to ensure that the Drug Policy Reform Agenda d

760
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 1: p A and the broader reform world was firmly grounded

761
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: in research right. And the second was to basically empower

762
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: researchers to get more involved in advocacy, because what happens

763
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: is researchers is oftentimes adopt a position if we don't

764
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: have enough research, we don't have enough evidence, a real

765
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: position of kind of pessivity in the face of politicians

766
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: and others, you know, making terrible decisions that harm people

767
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: all sorts of ways. And when you have agencies whose

768
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: default is to put something in Schedule one and prohibit it,

769
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: you know, rather than to say, let's try regulating this

770
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: first and as responsible as we can, and then as

771
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: the evidence comes in, we'll deal with that. I really

772
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: think it's important to be pretty clear about this sort

773
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 1: of thing, you know, It's not just about what the

774
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: evidence is in front of you. It's also about values.

775
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 1: It's about core values about what kind of society we're

776
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: going to live in. And so when somebody's out there

777
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: saying prohibit hi hibit or FDA is doing this thing,

778
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 1: you know, people including people working for the government as

779
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: public servants doing drug abuse research, need to be able

780
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: and willing to step up and say that's not right.

781
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: Sorry to give you that rant there, but UM, I

782
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 1: just felt like I needed to do that. The creative

783
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: is kicking in, you're getting getting no no. I know,

784
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate that there's there's this optimistic part of me

785
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: that thinks, okay, we have advocates taking the science that

786
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: we're producing, the a K is using it along with

787
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,359
Speaker 1: a KA being American credim Association, Yes, and working at

788
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: the state level to you know, implement over either overturned

789
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: bands or prohibsions on creatum, but also to introduce some

790
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: sort of regulatory um, you know, consumer Protection Act kind

791
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: of um. You know, let's station And I'm I'm very

792
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: thankful that that work is being done and that the

793
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: work that we're doing UM at University is that NIDA

794
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 1: can help inform that along with all of the stories

795
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: of the people using Creative And I do think that

796
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: you know Neida in particular, is you you alluded to

797
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: some improvements earlier. They are actively working to revitalize their

798
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: Creative web page to make it up to date and

799
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: to make it more informative and in keeping with the science,

800
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 1: and to have an outward facing, you know, set of

801
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: facts to the extent that we have them that is

802
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: more fleshed out and is more detailed than it currently is.

803
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: So that is actively underway. I know that much. And

804
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: I know that Neida is invested in understanding creatim better.

805
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: So there is an appetite to understand this. And in

806
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: the interim, I don't think anyone um would I would

807
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: hope not shy away from this kind of common sense,

808
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: you know regulation. So just a few last questions. One is,

809
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, I've heard about Creatum being used with various

810
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: addictions and with pain um, but especially respect to opioid dependence,

811
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: and and I've seen it, you know, some of the

812
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: academic articles saying that basically there are elements of creatum

813
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: that make it like an opioid, and in some respects

814
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 1: it's like an opioid agonist like methanon or boopernorphine, and

815
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: some plate loose sexist like an antagonist like uh, I

816
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: guess nilox one in some respects is like a partial agonist,

817
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: you know that, but that it operates on some of

818
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: the opioid receptors and that's what makes it oftentimes helpful

819
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: for people in trying to get off of opioids, to

820
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: reduce withdrawal symptoms, to stay off of it, to use

821
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: it as a substitute and something instead of maybe methodon

822
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: or booper orphine. But what can you basically tell me

823
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 1: about the relationship or the opioid like nature of creative

824
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: The short answer is that at least for alkaloids act

825
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: as partial agonists at new receptors, right, And those are

826
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: the receptors that are responsible for analgesia and you know,

827
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: like the pain culling effects, also some anxiolytic effects. But

828
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: also what we're seeing is that they seem to be

829
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: partial agonist, right, which means that there is a ceiling

830
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 1: as to how much they're going to be able to

831
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: activate um, you know, that receptor and produce an effect.

832
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: And so there's what's called a biased opioid agonist and

833
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: that term is highly hotly debated right now in terms

834
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: of the mechanisms of action for bias agonism. Some people

835
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: think there's a second messenger pathway the data rest and

836
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: that doesn't get activated, and and that's what is often

837
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: associated with respiratory depression g I upset things like that. Um, However,

838
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 1: there's new literature to suggest, and again this is highly debated,

839
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: and it's never kind of another but related conversation, there's

840
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: a bias within the selectivity of the proteins before these pathways.

841
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: Long story short. Some people and even I've put into papers, Um,

842
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,359
Speaker 1: you know these alkaloids metroggy and seems to act as

843
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: a partial bias agnus. Well, I'm kind of walking that

844
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: bias part back now until we know more. But we

845
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: do know that, I mean, you know, it does act

846
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: like I would say, it's closer to buprenorphine than methodone.

847
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: Just explained to our audience. Many of them won't know

848
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: the difference between those two because they're both being used

849
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: for people are struggling with addiction to heroin or other

850
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: you know, illicit opioids. UM and methodon can only be

851
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: attained for most people for addiction treatment and a clinic,

852
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,439
Speaker 1: many of which are very hard to access in parts

853
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: around the United States, where's booper and orphine is something

854
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 1: that can be prescribed by physicians, so it's much more

855
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 1: easily accessible. So when you say that maybe creatives a

856
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: little more like boopern orphine than it is like methodon,

857
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 1: what exactly do you mean without getting too technical. Methodon

858
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: is what's called a full agonist, meaning that you can

859
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: increase the dose really really really really high, and you

860
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 1: can keep increasing that dose until you've died. Basically, so

861
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: there's um you know, there's going to be more effect

862
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: with the more you take of it, and with puper

863
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 1: noorphine there's a ceiling effect, meaning and it's a partial agnes.

864
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: You know, people thought less of the potential for abuse

865
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: or misuse, and you know that may or may not

866
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: be true. That's a different conversation, but I think the

867
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: main thing to keep in mind is that whatever Creative

868
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: is doing, there are non opioid mechanisms of action. Right,

869
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: So even if we just wanted to call Creative an opioid,

870
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: which I'm not ready to call it an opioid point blank,

871
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 1: but the psychoactive substance this plant has action ovoid receptors,

872
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 1: but it has action these other receptors as well. And

873
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: again going back to that symphony analogy or metaphor that

874
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: Chris has, you know, we don't know what they're all

875
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: doing in combination. It could be that one is attenuating

876
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: the activity and of another or potentiating the activity of another.

877
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 1: And you know, we don't know what people are using

878
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: Creative in conjunction with. But more importantly, if someone is

879
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,959
Speaker 1: trying to get off the opioids and they think that

880
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: you know, creative is helpful, well, Creative might be helpful

881
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: because of its opioid like properties, but you hear people withdrawing,

882
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:25,760
Speaker 1: using benzos and using alcohols, so it isn't necessarily the case.

883
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: And often I would say even the bigger, bigger point

884
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: is that many people who are using opioids or are

885
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: Polly substance users, right, they're using many drugs. If they're

886
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: trying to get off many drugs, well, it could be

887
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: that the omnibus effects of creatum are I just feel

888
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 1: better when I take creatum And we don't know if

889
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: it's the action at at opioid like at new receptors

890
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: that is doing the heavy lifting. Likely that's part of

891
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,839
Speaker 1: the story, but it could be that it's a lot

892
00:49:55,880 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: of different things pharmacologically that are making the person feel better.

893
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: Even stimulants can make a person feel better, So it

894
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a one to one opioid replacement

895
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: or opioid substitution. But what we're seeing is that some

896
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: people are using it for ovoid substitution. But we're also

897
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: seeing some of that with amphetamine and alcohol. And so

898
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: the question I'm want to ask you about creatum, and

899
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,720
Speaker 1: this is my last question, is in your gut jump

900
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: forward ten fifteen years, do you think that creatum has

901
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: a potential to play a really important role in this

902
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: country and elsewhere in dealing with problems like opioid addiction,

903
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: other drug dependence, pain, and maybe some other conditions, or

904
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: do you remain very skeptical it really can play a

905
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: big role in the future. Well, I don't even have

906
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: to use my gut on this one. All of the

907
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: work that I've done, all of what I've seen firsthand,

908
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, I'm staking my career on this. Or I

909
00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: love to research traditional opioids obiodious disorder treatment. If I

910
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: didn't think creatum was going to be relevant, And when

911
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: I say I mean relevant on many different levels, both

912
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: creating products proliferating in real world settings, but also more

913
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: sophisticated understandings of the mechanisms of actions and how that

914
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: can be leveraged into some therapeutics, and both can currently

915
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: such that there's like a medicinal creatum similar to cannabis

916
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 1: situation going on. You know, if I didn't think creatum

917
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: was going to be relevant, I wouldn't be sitting here

918
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,439
Speaker 1: talking to you. And again, you know, it's not even

919
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: my gut. If I thought it was not helping people,

920
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: I would be working on something else. But I will say,

921
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 1: you know, it takes a really really long time to

922
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: take any uh, you know, alkaloid or you know, molecule

923
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: and get this particular set of molecules into a format

924
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: that can be delivered to humans and certain trials and

925
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: then tested and brought to market. So you know, the

926
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 1: just and future is the just in future. And I

927
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: think that, you know, to the point about policy, if

928
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: creatim is scheduled, it's going to make our job a

929
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 1: lot harder and as researchers to do our work. Christen,

930
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: I am really grateful for your taking the time to

931
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,439
Speaker 1: be on psychoactive with me. I really wish you more

932
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: a success as your career moves on, and I hope

933
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:24,479
Speaker 1: you're going to be coming outstanding researcher and scientists about

934
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: creative and other substances and bring your life experience to

935
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: bear on all of that. So thank you ever so

936
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 1: much for joining me on this program. Absolutely, And I

937
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 1: would only ask one last question, how are you feeling

938
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: with your creatum tee? Well, you know, I think that

939
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I've been very animated on this episode,

940
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: so maybe it's the creatum that maybe maybe that way,

941
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, you don't I don't know. When I

942
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: went to the shop, you know, they were distinguished between

943
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 1: the red creatums and the green cretums, and the red

944
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: was more sedating and the greens. And I don't know,

945
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: maybe it's the same kind of bullshit like you to

946
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,239
Speaker 1: hear like his indicinsativa really different or not? Right? Um?

947
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: But I and this liquid one I drank, they don't

948
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: even tell you whether it's red or green. All I

949
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: know is I'm feeling pretty good. You should try and extract.

950
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: I'm not prescribing that. I'm not endorsing creative us, but

951
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that that's not clinical advice. That does

952
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: not I do not speak for anybody but myself. I

953
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: appreciate the nonprofessional advice. Thank you, so thank you, so

954
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: very very much. No, thank you for the opportunity. It

955
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: was lovely. We love to hear from our listeners. If

956
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: you'd like to share your own stories, comments and ideas,

957
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: then leave us a message at one eight three three

958
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: seven seven nine sixty that's eight three three psycho zero,

959
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,439
Speaker 1: or you can email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot

960
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:51,480
Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan natal Man.

961
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: You can also find contact information in our show notes.

962
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures.

963
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 1: It's hosted by me Ethan Naedelman is produced by Noam

964
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: Osband and Josh Stain. The executive producers are Dylan Golden,

965
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures,

966
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from my Heart Radio and

967
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 1: me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by Ari Blucien and

968
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: a special thanks to a Brio s f Bianca Grimshaw

969
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: and Robert bb Next week I'll talk with Dr Gave,

970
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 1: one of the world's leading psychotherapists working with the drug kennemine.

971
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 1: I feel like kenemine is a beautiful medicine and I

972
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: think it has a lot of advantages. I really feel

973
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:51,680
Speaker 1: psychedelic psychotherapy allows one to almost find the door out

974
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 1: of our prison, which are all patterns, are characters, are conditioning,

975
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 1: and to have new possibilities and an emergence into the

976
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: full aspects of who we are, not based on our

977
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: survival based strategies from childhood in the environments we grew in.

978
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,759
Speaker 1: So I really feel it is a process of liberation

979
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: and growth and new possibilities. Subscribe to Psychoactive now see it,

980
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: don't miss it.