Speaker 1: You're listening to The Buck Sexton Show podcast, make sure
Speaker 1: you subscribe to the podcast on the iHeartRadio app or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Buck Sexton Show. On this
Speaker 2: edition we have Chris Williamson with us. He is the
Speaker 2: host of the very excellent Modern Wisdom podcast, which you
Speaker 2: can get wherever you get your podcast, Spotify, et cetera. Chris,
Speaker 2: first time of the program, Sir, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you, mister Sexton. How are we?
Speaker 2: I'm you know, pretty good man, pretty good. I wanted
Speaker 2: to give you just the floor for a minute here
Speaker 2: to tell everybody. Generally, we have people, so a lot
Speaker 2: of this is going to be people from the Clay
Speaker 2: and Buck audience who subscribe to our podcast and they
Speaker 2: hear this and they usually know our folks from radio
Speaker 2: world or conservative media world more broadly. But you're a
Speaker 2: You're just like a real deal podcast or a guy.
Speaker 2: You're a jack of many trades. You're a guy who
Speaker 2: crosses all boundaries and back rounds in terms of the
Speaker 2: kind of people who listen. So just tell everybody who
Speaker 2: is Chris Williams. Where'd this guy come from? With the
Speaker 2: cool accent.
Speaker 1: So born in the northeast of the UK, spent fifteen
Speaker 1: years running one of the biggest events companies in the UK.
Speaker 1: One thousand Club Nights stood on the front door of
Speaker 1: Cold Northeast Evenings. I met about a million people, did
Speaker 1: a bunch of reality TV, got a blue tick on Twitter,
Speaker 1: and free charcoal, toothpaste and all of the big wins,
Speaker 1: and then kind of got toward the end of my
Speaker 1: twenties and thought, is this really all that I've got
Speaker 1: to offer the world? Started a podcast, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Podcast kicked off, did very very well, and a year
Speaker 1: and a bit ago I made the choice to become
Speaker 1: an immigrant to your great nation. Survived my first July fourth,
Speaker 1: very difficult day for me, and I've done two Thanksgivings
Speaker 1: now and I think that pretty much means that I'm
Speaker 1: here to stay.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. I was going to say, the first step
Speaker 2: is getting you to become an American, which is obviously
Speaker 2: the best decision anybody can make from the UK to
Speaker 2: anywhere else. But then it would be to get you
Speaker 2: to a wonderful red state in America. But I believe
Speaker 2: you already inhabit one in Texas. Right on that way.
Speaker 2: You know the Florida Texas You know how there's like
Speaker 2: Yankees Red Sox, and there's these rivalries, the Florida Texas
Speaker 2: red state rivalry, which is a friendly but increasingly fierce
Speaker 2: one because you know, Texas was the heart of conservatism
Speaker 2: in America for a while, certainly for the last few decades,
Speaker 2: and it was actually California a little bit before that,
Speaker 2: which people forget. But that's a whole other conversation if
Speaker 2: you go way way back to the you know, the eighties.
Speaker 2: But now you have Florida up in its game in
Speaker 2: a big way. Maybe we'll get to that a little
Speaker 2: bit later. Let's start with this. You do a podcast
Speaker 2: which allows you to find out the most interesting things
Speaker 2: from people who are trying to find out the most
Speaker 2: important things in their discipline, their area. Well, what's just
Speaker 2: when someone says to you, like, what do you get
Speaker 2: from modern wisdom? Like? What am I going to learn about?
Speaker 2: I mean, I actually I think it's interesting. I know
Speaker 2: this is like becoming a podcast about your podcast, But
Speaker 2: what are some of the things that you've learned from
Speaker 2: talking to these people? These whatever thought leaders, gurus, intellectuals.
Speaker 2: All you have all kinds of folks. What do you learn?
Speaker 1: So I've had about six hundred episodes now one hundred
Speaker 1: plus New York Times bestsellers. People like John Peterson, Andrew Human,
Speaker 1: David Goggins, Jocko Willink, et cetera, et cetera. You'll learn
Speaker 1: awful lot. My curiosity is pretty big. One of the
Speaker 1: common themes between everybody recently, I think has been a
Speaker 1: concern about fragility for the new generation that's coming through.
Speaker 1: I think everyone is un impressed by the work ethic
Speaker 1: and the resilience of people that are coming through.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I wonder why that's the case. I don't disagree with them.
Speaker 1: That's been something that I've been very interested in recently.
Speaker 1: Declining birth rates has been something else I've been very
Speaker 1: interested in recently. But the show for me is mostly
Speaker 1: about finding out about myself and the world around me,
Speaker 1: a stunning human nature. Why I am the way I am.
Speaker 2: Really, Let's talk about gen z thing for a second, right,
Speaker 2: because I you know, when I do on the podcasting
Speaker 2: side and then uh TV, I feel like I generally
Speaker 2: and I'm speaking to people who are on the younger end,
Speaker 2: and then you know, Twitter and social media is probably
Speaker 2: the youngest end of what conservative media people are, how
Speaker 2: they're interacting with audience. And then you know, terrestrial radio,
Speaker 2: old school radio, you tend to have an older audience.
Speaker 2: And I hear from them, right, I hear from the
Speaker 2: boomer boomer squad. I love them, a lot of boomers
Speaker 2: who listen. I hear from them that the generations below
Speaker 2: them are, you know, not not showing up, not doing
Speaker 2: the hard work, all that kind of stuff. What I
Speaker 2: think is interesting, though, is that I'm a millennial, believe
Speaker 2: it or not, and I'm I'm as old a millennial
Speaker 2: as you can possibly be. And I look at gen
Speaker 2: Z and my interaction with them, and I actually think
Speaker 2: we're not separated like I would expect boomers to be
Speaker 2: surprised by a lot of things about gen Z. I
Speaker 2: think gen Z is crazy, So I'm wondering, and I
Speaker 2: think they're in for a really hard world and a
Speaker 2: lot of trouble ahead of them. Am I just telling
Speaker 2: them to get off my lawn a few decades before expected?
Speaker 2: Or is there data? Is there something to back up
Speaker 2: that gen Z is in for a rough ride.
Speaker 1: I do always wonder whether every generation considers the one
Speaker 1: coming after them to just be a complete nightmare, and
Speaker 1: whether we are now slowly turning into the boomers that
Speaker 1: we've been criticized by for a long time. But there
Speaker 1: was a recent study that came out from that it's
Speaker 1: called the GSS study. There's a ten percentage points gap
Speaker 1: between the share of conservatives versus liberals who report being
Speaker 1: very happy, and this is in pretty much every iteration
Speaker 1: of the study since nineteen seventy two. Conservatives do not
Speaker 1: just report high levels of happiness, they' also report higher
Speaker 1: levels of meaning in their lives. There's a positive association
Speaker 1: between conservative ideology and happiness that is very rarely reversed.
Speaker 1: And liberals are only happier than conservatives in five out
Speaker 1: of ninety two countries and never in the United States.
Speaker 1: So there is something going on, I think with the
Speaker 1: trendiness perhaps amongst young people for a very almost aggressively empathetic,
Speaker 1: overly performative viewpoint with regards.
Speaker 2: To I believe. I believe that leftism is a pathway
Speaker 2: to misery in any society in any point in history.
Speaker 2: And I know people say, what does leftism even mean?
Speaker 2: And we can get into all the definitional debates over
Speaker 2: what that, but effectively in the we can speak about it,
Speaker 2: I think with some specificity in the American context, the
Speaker 2: rejection of all traditionalism, the rejection of traditional gender roles,
Speaker 2: traditional sense of patriotism and connection to country and community,
Speaker 2: traditional religion. I'm not sure you've said that yet, but
Speaker 2: obviously that would be there's all of this rejection, and
Speaker 2: it seems like ultimately there is the replacement of it
Speaker 2: with I mean you said either the performative politics of it,
Speaker 2: but the replacement of it with the worship of the self.
Speaker 2: I mean a sollipsism right, the center of the universe
Speaker 2: idea for people, And I think that there are people
Speaker 2: that are able to very. They're able to want monetize it,
Speaker 2: which means as a market for it, but also politically,
Speaker 2: by making people the center of their own world, I
Speaker 2: think it actually makes them easier to control. And I'm
Speaker 2: just throwing some ideas out to you. I mean, how
Speaker 2: do you make sense of why people are so miserable
Speaker 2: the more left wing they are? So consistently this is
Speaker 2: the case in all these different polls, data, everything we
Speaker 2: can see.
Speaker 1: I think that if everything is a perceived injustice, you
Speaker 1: have a combination in the digital age, right, you are
Speaker 1: constantly exposed to new outrages. Just everybody is. All of
Speaker 1: us are because of the amount of extra information that
Speaker 1: we have that's coming in. But cultural elites who constantly
Speaker 1: create new outrages out there. Nothing has skyrocketed number of
Speaker 1: things that we can be concerned by. And if you
Speaker 1: are praised if the particular background that you come from
Speaker 1: upholds performative empathy, if it says that standing up for
Speaker 1: the little guy, that being very very attuned with injustices,
Speaker 1: that means in a world prickling with provocations, your sensibility
Speaker 1: is just roam free, and you allow yourself to be
Speaker 1: goaded by every visible indignation, You're endlessly distracted from your goals.
Speaker 1: You're easily controlled by emotional manipulation from trolls, disinformation agents,
Speaker 1: anybody that you want. I think that it is a
Speaker 1: perfect cocktail of performative empathy which leads to real vulnerability.
Speaker 1: And the line between what I was doing to look
Speaker 1: good and what I genuinely feel is very quickly blood,
Speaker 1: which can cause people to be quite quite easy to manipulate.
Speaker 2: And on the problems that gen z young women particularly face,
Speaker 2: I mean that's you know that There are not that
Speaker 2: many times when I'll read statistics or polling or anything
Speaker 2: that that's rooted in data and have to read it
Speaker 2: a few times just to make sure that I'm not
Speaker 2: missing something or there's some some variable that I'm not
Speaker 2: taking into account. That makes the numbers seem a little
Speaker 2: bit more digestible, right, I mean, there's at some level
Speaker 2: you read something it's hard to process if it really
Speaker 2: defies your preconceived notions of what's possible. The number of
Speaker 2: the percentage i should say, of young women who have
Speaker 2: thought about suicide and also engaged in and or engaged
Speaker 2: in self harm already seems like it's a pandemic of
Speaker 2: its own, not one that's talked about very much. What
Speaker 2: is the data tell you about it? And why is
Speaker 2: that happening?
Speaker 1: Sixty percent of US girls reported persistent sadness and hopelessness.
Speaker 1: That's the current state of I think it's under sixteens
Speaker 1: in the US at the moment. That's you know, if
Speaker 1: you had a disease, let's say that was able to
Speaker 1: come in and afflict people with some kind of mental malady,
Speaker 1: and that the effect would be one in two more
Speaker 1: than one in two of them would suffer with persistent
Speaker 1: sadness and hopelessness. This would be seen as one of
Speaker 1: the biggest pandemics that we've ever seen. You know, forget
Speaker 1: a one to two percent mortality rate. This is making
Speaker 1: life essentially close to not worth living persistent sadness and hopelessness.
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of things going on.
Speaker 1: I think social media has an awful lot to answer for.
Speaker 1: You are comparing yourself with the greatest lives that you
Speaker 1: can see online, whilst you see yourself bumble from working
Speaker 1: class home to lift to school to whatever it is
Speaker 1: that's going on. You're not as thin, or as attractive
Speaker 1: or as rich as you feel like you should be,
Speaker 1: and the gap between the life that you could lead
Speaker 1: and the life that you are leading has never been
Speaker 1: more present out in front. I think that there's concerns
Speaker 1: to do with hormonal birth control. The more that I
Speaker 1: learn about the psychological impact of that on especially young girls' minds,
Speaker 1: it is really really concerning. There's an amazing book called
Speaker 1: This is Your Brain on birth control by doctor Sarah
Speaker 1: Hill that needs to be factored in too, and all
Speaker 1: of Jonathan Height's work as well. With the cuddling of
Speaker 1: the American mind snowplow parenting and whatnot.
Speaker 2: Tell tell me more about this, because I I feel
Speaker 2: like when I was, you know, high school and college age,
Speaker 2: there was this birth control was was prescribed so broadly
Speaker 2: for women that and it was always under this context
Speaker 2: of oh, it's just it's just like a thing that
Speaker 2: you should do in the background. It's not even about
Speaker 2: being sexually active. It'll regulate your period, it'll clear up
Speaker 2: your skin. Birth control became and I mean I really
Speaker 2: remember this something that you know, it was almost like, hey,
Speaker 2: we're just like gonna start adding into the water for
Speaker 2: young women. So they just it really became super wild.
Speaker 2: I'd spread. And it's only been in recent years that
Speaker 2: I've started to hear and come across women who would say,
Speaker 2: I won't touch the stuff, I don't want to go
Speaker 2: near it, and they have all these concerns about it.
Speaker 2: What do we know about the concerns or the risks
Speaker 2: the challenges of it as established, and then what about
Speaker 2: things that maybe are still need more study. But there
Speaker 2: are some real experts out there, like the doctor that
Speaker 2: you mentioned, who have concerns that this is actually a
Speaker 2: much bigger issue in other ways.
Speaker 1: If anybody wants to check out a full hour and
Speaker 1: a half conversation with me and doctor Hill. They can
Speaker 1: just search doctor Sarah Hill Chris Williamson on YouTube and
Speaker 1: they'll come up, or it'll be on Spotify and Apple
Speaker 1: podcasts and stuff. But there are a whole suite of
Speaker 1: things that occur beyond simply suppressing your ovulation. There is
Speaker 1: increases in depression and anxiety. Particularly. What's concerning is that
Speaker 1: there is a potential if you take birth control during
Speaker 1: the formative years i e. Your teenagers, when your brain
Speaker 1: is still forming, it can lock in a particular type
Speaker 1: of folding within the brain which makes these tendencies towards
Speaker 1: depression and anxiety irreversible. That you are creating a lifelong
Speaker 1: susceptibility to these kinds of concerns. There is some pretty
Speaker 1: strong evidence that suggests that women on birth control optimize
Speaker 1: for different types of partners. They seem to optimize for
Speaker 1: partners that are providers rather than protectors, so they will
Speaker 1: optimize for objective metrics of success, stuff like their earning capacity,
Speaker 1: their education. Now, in a world where two women for
Speaker 1: every one man is completing a four year US college
Speaker 1: degree by twenty thirty, this is going to worsen an
Speaker 1: already imbalanced education market because the guy that might be
Speaker 1: a blue collar worker but really handsome and rugged and
Speaker 1: a fantastic sort of masculine man is going to be
Speaker 1: overlooked by a woman that's on birth control. The problem
Speaker 1: and the kicker is that when that woman comes off
Speaker 1: birth control, all of these women, statistically, on average, have
Speaker 1: a much a much lower level of sexual satisfaction with
Speaker 1: the partner. So women can select a partner whilst on
Speaker 1: birth control, which when they come off birth control, they
Speaker 1: find themselves no longer attracted to. And this is something
Speaker 1: that's important for both men and women to know. If
Speaker 1: you have been in a relationship for two or three
Speaker 1: or four years and you think right now is the
Speaker 1: time to get engaged and get married, but she's never
Speaker 1: come off birth control while she's still with you, that
Speaker 1: is something that I think everybody should do, because both
Speaker 1: the woman and the man could find that maybe they're
Speaker 1: not quite so compatible when this hormone induced stupa gets lifted.
Speaker 2: I assume you've probably talked to a Professor Galloway on
Speaker 2: your show. I mean you've done six hundred episode indeed, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I figured you would have. I've seen some of his staff,
Speaker 2: and I to say, having lived I'm recently married, but
Speaker 2: having lived my life as a single man in New
Speaker 2: York City for a couple of decades, I was certainly
Speaker 2: exposed to my fair share of dating rituals and the
Speaker 2: dating marketplace. And I see this as tying in really
Speaker 2: with social media. I'm I'm amazed I come across you know,
Speaker 2: the old was that the old Greek in Greek mythology,
Speaker 2: narcissist right looking at himself in the it was in
Speaker 2: the pond, right, or you know, the body of water
Speaker 2: reflecting pool, and it became in love with himself nothing
Speaker 2: better than, nothing better than what he could see back
Speaker 2: in his own reflection. So this idea has been around
Speaker 2: for a long time, right, obviously gives us the term narcissism.
Speaker 2: I am amazed at how many women I come across
Speaker 2: who and I have known and seen and been around,
Speaker 2: who seem to think that the purpose of being beautiful,
Speaker 2: you know, being attractive to men is for attention and
Speaker 2: likes on Instagram, and they give very little thought. And
Speaker 2: of course, you know, going out on dates and having
Speaker 2: men fly them around the world and things like that too.
Speaker 2: But very little time spent thinking about who should I
Speaker 2: marry and who is going to be the father of
Speaker 2: my children? And they start thinking about that it thirty
Speaker 2: five and it's a shock to them when they find
Speaker 2: out that's not a smart timeline. Am I Am I
Speaker 2: man explaining here? Or is there any route for this
Speaker 2: in any basis for this in an objective data and expertise?
Speaker 1: I think whatever you do is man'splaining. But with regards
Speaker 1: with regards to the data, I'm not too sure. In
Speaker 1: my personal experience, I've met an awful lot of girls
Speaker 1: in nightlife, and a awful lot of them have been
Speaker 1: very good looking, Thankfully, not many of them have had
Speaker 1: that particular mentality that maybe in New York, thing a
Speaker 1: cosmopolitan city with more wealth, more ceilings that you could
Speaker 1: break up through. I'm not too sure working class from
Speaker 1: the northeast of the UK, that hasn't been something that
Speaker 1: I've encountered personally. One of the things that I can
Speaker 1: tell you, though, is that eight out of ten women
Speaker 1: who are childless didn't intend to be childless. They didn't
Speaker 1: intend to not have children.
Speaker 2: Something's going on.
Speaker 1: This is a massive, massive meta analysis by someone called
Speaker 1: Professor Rinska Kaiser, and this looked at what women who
Speaker 1: have broken through the fertility when and not had kids
Speaker 1: had to say about their choices in life and why
Speaker 1: they occurred. Around about one in ten women is physiologically
Speaker 1: incapable of having children very unfortunately, due to a variety
Speaker 1: of factors. Around about one intend said that they always
Speaker 1: intended to not have children, and this is planned, which
Speaker 1: leaves a whopping four out of five non mother women
Speaker 1: who no longer can have children who didn't intend to
Speaker 1: not be mothers. It's called involuntary child listeners. And the
Speaker 1: most common reason for this is that they didn't life circumstances,
Speaker 1: as it's called, and the most common life circumstances not
Speaker 1: meeting the right partners sufficiently early before they break through
Speaker 1: the fertility window, which could be facilitated by perhaps not
Speaker 1: thinking about things sufficiently seriously. I do think it's important
Speaker 1: to not necessarily lay this at the feet of women.
Speaker 1: When you have finally had the opportunity to go to university,
Speaker 1: and then after you come out of university, you know
Speaker 1: your mother and your grandmother basically didn't you for the
Speaker 1: first time, has had the opportunity you go to university
Speaker 1: you come out, you're twenty four or twenty five, you
Speaker 1: spend five years in a job, and now you're thirty,
Speaker 1: and now you've barely had adult life in the working world.
Speaker 1: But oh my god, I have to really really rush along.
Speaker 1: So I do think that women's fertility has become squeezed
Speaker 1: by their increasing opportunities in education and employment. This doesn't
Speaker 1: mean at all that we should draw it back. It
Speaker 1: does mean that we probably should say to girls, look
Speaker 1: like you know, the clock is ticking. An IVF is
Speaker 1: not a miracle wondered drug. It's not going to fix
Speaker 1: everything it is. There are limitations to what you can
Speaker 1: do biologically. And you know, these women, eight out of
Speaker 1: ten they grieve for families that they've never had. There
Speaker 1: are support groups around the world for these women, and
Speaker 1: you know, for the people that say.
Speaker 2: But I'm sorry, is it possible that women are being
Speaker 2: and this is of course in the aggregate, and there's
Speaker 2: all kinds of things we could say, provisos and exceptions
Speaker 2: and everything else. Women are being lied to about how
Speaker 2: they should approach their life path. I mean I say
Speaker 2: lied to, I mean by society now by and large,
Speaker 2: I mean you're again laying out the numbers, there's something
Speaker 2: that's going very wrong here. And I would also, you know,
Speaker 2: I think that the problem is whenever you start to
Speaker 2: say here's a problem that faces women, especially if you're
Speaker 2: a guy, I mean maybe not for you, because you
Speaker 2: seem very like in touch with people and sensitive and empathetic,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a little more of the man splenning
Speaker 2: over here. But nonetheless, you know you're a guy, so
Speaker 2: there's always this oh, it's not about a battle of
Speaker 2: the sexist thing. I mean I could also sit here
Speaker 2: and talk about how men with options have just become
Speaker 2: just like disgustingly, uh you know, just it's all about swipe, swipe, swipe.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, it's it's all so casual and
Speaker 2: they got tons of time and they don't really care.
Speaker 2: And you know that comes with consequence, as it comes
Speaker 2: with certainly emotional and time consequences for the women involved
Speaker 2: over the long term. I would argue too, for a
Speaker 2: lot of guys, they realize, you know, I don't even
Speaker 2: realize what was that even all about.
Speaker 1: You know, that's not good either. No, I think that
Speaker 1: a wealth of opportunities for guys that are very high
Speaker 1: status with a ton of different women that they could
Speaker 1: sleep with every night. It's like a child that can
Speaker 1: eat ice cream. It might be what it wants, but
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily good for it. And yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I if there is somebody that feels icky about two
Speaker 1: guys talking about women's issues, well would you rather just
Speaker 1: not care? I'm not trying to drag women out of
Speaker 1: the boardroom and put them back into the kitchen or
Speaker 1: the bedroom. What I'm saying is that eight out of
Speaker 1: ten women who don't have children didn't intend to not
Speaker 1: have children after their fertility window breaks. How is that
Speaker 1: anything shy of just straight up empathy. You say that
Speaker 1: you want men to talk about women's problems, to care
Speaker 1: about the issues that women have. There are very few
Speaker 1: issues that are going to affect women more emotionally than this.
Speaker 2: Well, I want to come back in a second here
Speaker 2: and ask you what are the the solutions Maybe too
Speaker 2: strong a word, but what are the ways to address
Speaker 2: this in a positive way that are being raised? But
Speaker 2: we'll get to that a second, because I want to
Speaker 2: set everybody up who's watching this spring to have their
Speaker 2: full energy. You want to be like Chris. You want
Speaker 2: to be a guy who's full of energy, vitality you know,
Speaker 2: is getting out there. I don't even This guy probably
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Speaker 2: I do want to let's ask abou addressing the female
Speaker 2: issue of the childlessness, but also masculinity, sir, since we're
Speaker 2: just talking about testosterone and the decline thereof which is
Speaker 2: also I know, a scientific fact in reality. We'll get
Speaker 2: to that in a second. But all right, so the
Speaker 2: people see. My concern is that when when we sit
Speaker 2: here we talk about women are child without child, and
Speaker 2: usually that means without in many cases I should say,
Speaker 2: I mean without a family of their own as well. Right,
Speaker 2: those things tend to go together, not always. Some women
Speaker 2: get married and don't have kids, but a lot of
Speaker 2: women end up not getting married and not having children.
Speaker 2: I have my ideas for how this could be solved
Speaker 2: for a little bit, but I want to know what
Speaker 2: do what do the experts, I mean, you sit down
Speaker 2: with experts in fields like this, what do they think
Speaker 2: can be done about this?
Speaker 1: One of the problems is that it's a multivariate problem,
Speaker 1: which means that there is no single silver bullets to
Speaker 1: fix it. Some of the suggestions that I think that
Speaker 1: would be fruitful would be encouraging in person dating. Again,
Speaker 1: so since the advent of me too, which was a
Speaker 1: much needed pushback against men that were using their positions
Speaker 1: of power to manipulate women into sex, which is not
Speaker 1: something that anybody, man or woman should want. However, it
Speaker 1: can overcorrect and take it to the situation where women
Speaker 1: are terrified to be approached by men and men are
Speaker 1: terrified to do the approaching, which means that you've seen
Speaker 1: these jim TikTok videos of guys that will go over
Speaker 1: and ask if the girl needs help unloading her blue bridge, deadlift,
Speaker 1: workout or whatever, and then now on TikTok to a
Speaker 1: few million people being called a creep. That sets a
Speaker 1: very worrying precedent because eighty six percent of women say
Speaker 1: that they want a man to make the first move,
Speaker 1: but eighty percent of men say that they will not
Speaker 1: approach a woman for fear of being seen as creepy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, to tell people, you know my dad, I
Speaker 2: will tell you he was always he was always. You know,
Speaker 2: you gotta you gotta, you gotta ask, you know, you
Speaker 2: gotta ask for for the number, you've gotta get it.
Speaker 2: And if you get rejected, it's fine. You just take
Speaker 2: it like a man. You say, well, it's nice to
Speaker 2: you know. And this was sort of part of manhood
Speaker 2: training for I think a lot of people, not to
Speaker 2: me or for whatever that's worth. But now I mean
Speaker 2: I think that. I mean you mentioned those videos. There's
Speaker 2: one video where some woman a guy looks in or
Speaker 2: and this one went super viral. You saw this, I'm
Speaker 2: sure too, looked in her general direction and she like
Speaker 2: starts in with him like what are you looking at?
Speaker 2: And he's like, I work here, Like what are you
Speaker 2: even talking about? And I work in a gym, I
Speaker 2: mean work, yeah, right, I occasionally go to I have
Speaker 2: time the elliptical machines in a gym near me, but
Speaker 2: it is in Miami. There are women who have set Oh,
Speaker 2: first of all, they're basically wearing lingerie and second of
Speaker 2: a which is fine, but I mean, you know, you
Speaker 2: are wearing very very very little to work out. I
Speaker 2: mean there are levels here, but they're setting up cameras
Speaker 2: in the lingerie in the public gym to videotape themselves
Speaker 2: working out. I'm sure you've seen this too.
Speaker 1: The tripod squad.
Speaker 2: Yep. We oh wow, there's a term for it. I
Speaker 2: don't even know there's a there's a term for everything.
Speaker 1: There's a meme for everything. But yeah, I'm very I
Speaker 1: think that that trend is very quickly being reversed. I
Speaker 1: think that and understand that everybody pushed back against those videos, right,
Speaker 1: Everyone has pushed back against them because it was seen
Speaker 1: as ridiculous. But yeah, man, eighty six percent of women
Speaker 1: said they want a man to make the first move
Speaker 1: in eighty percent of men say they're terrified of approaching
Speaker 1: a woman for being seen as creepy. In a world
Speaker 1: where one in three men hasn't had sex in the
Speaker 1: last year aged eighteen to thirty, that tripled from eight
Speaker 1: to twenty eight percent from two thousand and eight to
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. In a world with that, we need to
Speaker 1: be doing things to foster more of these kind of relationships.
Speaker 1: And I know that you were going to talk about masculinity.
Speaker 1: One very probably the most shocking stat that I've learned
Speaker 1: over the last year is that fifty percent of men
Speaker 1: said that they are not looking for casual or long
Speaker 1: term relationships aged eighteen to thirty sixty one percent in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, it's down fifty percent. Now, both you and
Speaker 1: me have been through the ages of eighteen to thirty
Speaker 1: and understand the reality bending torment of the male sex
Speaker 1: drive during those ages. If you can imagine that one
Speaker 1: in two men is saying they are not looking for
Speaker 1: either casual relationationships or long term relationships. That's very worrying.
Speaker 2: How much of a of a role you know that
Speaker 2: there's these there's these groups that have gonna say groups,
Speaker 2: you know, these ideas, memes, you know whatever. You know,
Speaker 2: you'll hear this. But I think actually in the UK,
Speaker 2: wasn't there wasn't there per where there was a whole
Speaker 2: like no wanking was a thing. These groups say no fat,
Speaker 2: thank you, sorry, sorry close, I was close, No fat exactly.
Speaker 2: This is a real thing for people to think that
Speaker 2: I'm being crazy, and but I've seen others who are
Speaker 2: making this and it always ties in really to I mean,
Speaker 2: that's a little more specific, but the proliferation of pornography.
Speaker 2: I mean, ever, everyone always talking about this. You know technology. Obviously,
Speaker 2: technology comes with great things, there's downsides. We're of all
Speaker 2: figuring this out. Hopefully Chris and I aren't both gonna
Speaker 2: end up being replaced by AI machines in the next
Speaker 2: few years. But it seems to me that the proliferation
Speaker 2: of pornography online is something that humanity wasn't really prepared for,
Speaker 2: and it's just starting to figure out how bad it
Speaker 2: is for these Like I mean I tell people is
Speaker 2: like I made a gosh going on like fifteen years ago.
Speaker 2: I was just like, noborn done. I don't want to
Speaker 2: see it. I don't want to look at it. I
Speaker 2: don't you know, And I found it was both freeing
Speaker 2: and helpful as a guide just be like I just
Speaker 2: don't do that.
Speaker 1: There are a few supernormal stimuli in the modern world,
Speaker 1: so French fries would be one of them. The saltiness,
Speaker 1: the crunchiness, the fluffiness is a food that we would
Speaker 1: have not been evolved to being able to deal with.
Speaker 1: And you were able to see now within twenty minutes
Speaker 1: on a single iPhone more women than you would be
Speaker 1: exposed to in your entire life ancessrally, So it is
Speaker 1: absolutely something that's a supernormal stimuli. One slight white pill
Speaker 1: that should push back against too much concern is that
Speaker 1: the story you tell yourself around your porn news seems
Speaker 1: to be very, very instrumental in how it affects you.
Speaker 1: That porn is not quite neutral, porn use is not
Speaker 1: quite neutral. But if you have a relatively healthy relationship
Speaker 1: with it, and if you do have a partner, if
Speaker 1: you're not hiding your use from your partner, and if
Speaker 1: you don't feel ashamed after you use it, that is
Speaker 1: a pretty good market. Those people seem to be able
Speaker 1: to kind of continue to move through life. Now, one
Speaker 1: of the problems.
Speaker 2: You're using it on an instruction basis, perhaps DIY feel
Speaker 2: to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems that way, yes, but as you said,
Speaker 1: you almost anybody that realizes that they don't like what
Speaker 1: porn does in the world is probably not going to
Speaker 1: feel particularly good if they use it themselves. Now, the
Speaker 1: problem comes if you have someone like that who doesn't
Speaker 1: do what you did and recount use of porn and say,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to bother using this anymore. If you
Speaker 1: have someone who doesn't like it but continues to use it,
Speaker 1: that is a recipe for bad relationships, for reduced sex drive.
Speaker 1: It seems to have a downstream a pretty big host
Speaker 1: of stuff. Couple that with social media and video games,
Speaker 1: and you have muted a lot of men's goal seeking
Speaker 1: and reproductive chasing behavior.
Speaker 2: I want to ask about how society is also suppressing
Speaker 2: what I would argue are masculine virtues and what you've
Speaker 2: come across from your conversations, both your own research and
Speaker 2: conversations with experts about that. We'll get to that in
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Speaker 2: So I'm speaking to Chris Williamson here life genius. This
Speaker 2: guy knows all kinds of things about how to lead
Speaker 2: a life rooted in modern wisdom. Also the name of
Speaker 2: his of his podcast, and that's where I can also
Speaker 2: now take the conversation two. It feels like what would
Speaker 2: have been described as a we how old are you?
Speaker 2: I can't. I don't even know how old you are?
Speaker 1: Thirty five?
Speaker 2: Thirty five? All right, so we're I mean, I'm forty one,
Speaker 2: so I'm a little bit, you know, just wait to
Speaker 2: get to be my age. Your shoulders start to hurt
Speaker 2: for no reason. Your knees already book. You probably do
Speaker 2: a lot of yoga and stuff though here anyway, But
Speaker 2: you got like five or six years. But what what
Speaker 2: what we grew up with as the masculine virtues. It
Speaker 2: seems increasingly there really, there really is a broad societal
Speaker 2: effort to make that stuff. I mean, toxic masculinity is
Speaker 2: the obvious phrase that's used, but to suppress it. And
Speaker 2: starting also at a very young age, you know, for
Speaker 2: young men, you know they're uh, you know, I mean
Speaker 2: your boys, even they're a rambunctiousness there the things that
Speaker 2: we would associate with boys will be boys and they
Speaker 2: get older and this is what a man should be.
Speaker 2: Feels like society is trying to turn all that on
Speaker 2: its head. How much of that is real? And how
Speaker 2: bad is it if it is real?
Speaker 1: I think that there are some real concerns to do
Speaker 1: with how society sees boys in masculinity. At the moment
Speaker 1: you spoke about toxic masculinity. I actually found recently, for
Speaker 1: a debate that I did out in Qatar, a bunch
Speaker 1: of different headlines that were accused of being toxic masculinity
Speaker 1: that come through in the mainstream media recently, Brexit toxic masculinity,
Speaker 1: the election of Donald Trump, not wearing a mask, eating meat,
Speaker 1: physical fitness toxic masculinity, hip hop, smelling of axe body
Speaker 1: spray was toxic masculinity being interested.
Speaker 2: To be fair, I don't, I'm not a fan, keep going.
Speaker 1: Pretty oppressive, playing board games, being interested in cars and
Speaker 1: saying hello or have a nice day. So there are
Speaker 1: what used to be simply unpleasant or perhaps slightly distasteful
Speaker 1: behavior by men has now become pathologized. And if you
Speaker 1: want to guarantee men not engaging in a conversation, you
Speaker 1: want to pathologize them. You want to basically make it
Speaker 1: out that there is something inside of them that needs
Speaker 1: to be exhumed or exercised. Right like original sin, you
Speaker 1: are broken. You are Ultimately it is your fault. And
Speaker 1: when we come to parts of masculinity that we probably
Speaker 1: should keep a hold of. The twenty twelve shooting in Aurora, Colorado,
Speaker 1: the Dark Knight movie premiere. So the shooter is a
Speaker 1: twenty four year old male and in the midst of
Speaker 1: the onslaught there's three men twenty four, twenty six, and
Speaker 1: twenty seven who threw themselves on top of their girlfriends
Speaker 1: as these bullets are shot into the crowd. All three
Speaker 1: men died, all three women survived. That is precisely the
Speaker 1: kind of masculinity that will be gotten rid of if
Speaker 1: you want to throw baby, bathwater, and bath out altogether.
Speaker 2: Yes, And it seems that unfortunately this is also playing
Speaker 2: out of me and I just had I had a
Speaker 2: lot of people with military and special operations backgrounds on
Speaker 2: both radio for many many years now, and then even
Speaker 2: on the podcast, we had a Kiowa female Kiowa combat
Speaker 2: pilot multiple tours overseas, you know, flying one of those
Speaker 2: helicopters that's got rocket pods on it and machine guns
Speaker 2: and was doing all the stuff that one does in
Speaker 2: a combat zone. And she said that the military is
Speaker 2: now being toyed with, and there's a social engineering that's
Speaker 2: going on that's meant to undermine the base ethos of
Speaker 2: people that have to be willing to put their lives online,
Speaker 2: not necessarily in the same context as what you just mentioned,
Speaker 2: but for their country as well as you know, for
Speaker 2: their their comrades and arms. So I do think something's
Speaker 2: going on there all. But but switching gears for a second,
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things, I mean, I came
Speaker 2: across your work. I've seen it on on the TikTok
Speaker 2: and some other places, and there are moments I think
Speaker 2: there are distill there are distilled moments of insight from
Speaker 2: from the work that you're doing that are particularly pointing
Speaker 2: in that very memorable for people. What's something though, that
Speaker 2: you've come away from one of your conversations that you
Speaker 2: say to yourself is a difficult truth that people need
Speaker 2: to hear that you just you know, you want to
Speaker 2: spread the word about it, but you know people don't.
Speaker 2: What is a difficult truth that people think? I want
Speaker 2: to find a way around that I want to argue
Speaker 2: with Chris on that you're like, no, this is the
Speaker 2: way it is.
Speaker 1: So two what would come to mind. One is that
Speaker 1: regrets are inevitable in life, that they're not a bug
Speaker 1: of life, They're a feature. You are going to have
Speaker 1: regrets in life. And when it comes to choosing between
Speaker 1: different things, a much smarter question to ask yourself would
Speaker 1: be which regret can I live with? As opposed to
Speaker 1: which thing do I want to do? Because what you
Speaker 1: realize is over time you're going to accumulate regrets and
Speaker 1: those are the things that are going to hurt a lot.
Speaker 1: So if you do end up being faced with a
Speaker 1: difficult challenge, one that is risky but is going to
Speaker 1: be fulfilling and will close a loop and will mean
Speaker 1: that for the rest of your life you don't ever
Speaker 1: have to wonder about whether or not you could have
Speaker 1: what should have done that thing. That's something that's very good.
Speaker 1: The other thing, and this is a good question that
Speaker 1: I love to ask friends at dinner parties, is what
Speaker 1: is currently being ignored by the media, but in future
Speaker 1: will be studied by historians. And it's my belief that
Speaker 1: the birth rate decline at the moment is something which
Speaker 1: nobody is paying attention to. Climate change is the current
Speaker 1: existential crisis that is given an awful lot of focus,
Speaker 1: and in thirty or forty years, you are going to
Speaker 1: have huge, huge cities all around the world with no
Speaker 1: one in them.
Speaker 2: Let's come back and dive into that in one second.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the declining birth rate globally, because my friends,
Speaker 2: I got a good buddy who used to hate shaving,
Speaker 2: and as you can see, I actually just started recently.
Speaker 2: I got rid of the beard after god, I don't
Speaker 2: know five or six years, but I'm one of those
Speaker 2: guys now who wants to make sure that I'm getting
Speaker 2: the best shave I possibly can, and I don't want
Speaker 2: irritation and ingrown facial hair, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: So that's why you got to check out one blade shave.
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Speaker 2: I've had them for years and I'm now starting to
Speaker 2: use them again now that I'm actually clean shaven, which
Speaker 2: I had to get approval from the wife. Chris. Okay,
Speaker 2: Actually funny story. We had a woman named Phyllis who
Speaker 2: wrote into the radio show and she went on this
Speaker 2: like little tirade about how I was much handsomer before
Speaker 2: I had a beard, and I just everyone started laughing
Speaker 2: at me on the crew and the radio show and
Speaker 2: everything else. I was like, you know what, if the
Speaker 2: wife says it, I'm We're gonna give Phyllis what she wants.
Speaker 2: So now I'm a clean shaven man and some.
Speaker 1: Your wife has veto power over your facial hah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she has veta power of it, because come on,
Speaker 2: I mean, who else is really you know what I
Speaker 2: means is at four? Yeah? Yeah, exactly. It's like it's
Speaker 2: all really matters, all right. So we were talking about
Speaker 2: declining birth rates and I remember, I'm sure you've read it.
Speaker 2: There was the Mark Stein book America Alone, I think
Speaker 2: it was maybe came out fifteen years ago, and just
Speaker 2: crunching the numbers, and it was basically, the West is
Speaker 2: done over a long enough time frame, just based on
Speaker 2: the declining birth rate except America, but now America is
Speaker 2: actually heading the lawn trajectory too. Tell me what's going
Speaker 2: on here with declining birth rates. We can start globally,
Speaker 2: think would bring it home to the US.
Speaker 1: Of a So seventy percent of people around the world
Speaker 1: to live in a country which is below the birthrate
Speaker 1: tipping point, which is two point one children per woman.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether this is a something to be
Speaker 1: happy about or not, but the worst places in the
Speaker 1: world are currently in the East. So Korea. South Korea's
Speaker 1: birthrate is not zero point eight point eight, which is
Speaker 1: absolutely insane. Japan arod just over one one point two.
Speaker 1: So let's say Japan's got aboute hundred and twenty million
Speaker 1: people in it or so by twenty fifty that's going
Speaker 1: to be sixty million, China one point two billion by
Speaker 1: twenty fifty six hundred and fifty million. So it is
Speaker 1: a precipitous decline, very very aggressive. When you get across
Speaker 1: to the US, I think it's in the high ones
Speaker 1: one point seven ish one point six, one point seven
Speaker 1: one point eight. Not great. Now you can fix this
Speaker 1: problem to a degree with immigration, but not massively because
Speaker 1: even South American countries are having declining birth rates. So overall,
Speaker 1: you can move bits of the pie around on the
Speaker 1: world as much as you want, but the pie is
Speaker 1: still continuing to get smaller. And it is very, very concerning.
Speaker 2: Why aren't people having more babies in developed countries? And
Speaker 2: you know, obviously we know in the third world that's
Speaker 2: very different.
Speaker 1: In the third world, they're declining as well, by one
Speaker 1: child per every fifteen years. So let's say you go
Speaker 1: to Ghana, you go to Chad somewhere like that, eight
Speaker 1: and it's seven, then it's six, then it's five each
Speaker 1: fifteen years. It's going down. It seems like as soon
Speaker 1: as you industrialize country and you educate the women and
Speaker 1: give them the opportunity to do other things, those other
Speaker 1: life paths begin to compete with family life. And it's
Speaker 1: not the interesting stat The most interesting stat around this
Speaker 1: is the average number of children per mother hasn't changed.
Speaker 1: It's the number of motherless women or childless women that
Speaker 1: has increased. So if you have your first, it's likely
Speaker 1: that you will go on to have a second, and
Speaker 1: a third and so on and so forth. The large
Speaker 1: difference is in the number of women who never starts
Speaker 1: to have the first go ahead, go ahead, just that
Speaker 1: that's that is the highest point of leverage. And it
Speaker 1: seems that the most common reason, as we said before,
Speaker 1: eight out of ten women broke through that fertility window
Speaker 1: didn't intend to not have children. Most common reason is
Speaker 1: life circumstance. Didn't find a partner within time because that
Speaker 1: for windows been squeezed by a combination of education, employment,
Speaker 1: and you could say, raising living costs, all that stuff
Speaker 1: you know, might be getting in the way people feel
Speaker 1: like they need a two income household. Absolutely potential, but.
Speaker 2: O good. What do the numbers tell us about female
Speaker 2: life satisfaction when it comes to pursuing family as the
Speaker 2: first priority versus a career.
Speaker 1: The current longest study of happiness is the Harvard Study
Speaker 1: of Adult Development. It's been going for decades and decades
Speaker 1: and decades, and they've studied the same people, and then
Speaker 1: they've studied the children of these people. The strongest predictor
Speaker 1: of your health outcomes in life, of your happiness, of
Speaker 1: your resilience are your number of family, friend, and romantic partners.
Speaker 1: That's it. It's relationships all the way down. Friends, family,
Speaker 1: and romantic partner. That's what is the best predictor for everything,
Speaker 1: every health outcome that you care to care about.
Speaker 2: So that actually pivots us nicely into what I wanted
Speaker 2: to ask you about as well, because I know that
Speaker 2: one of the things you've done on Modern Wisdom podcasts
Speaker 2: for everyone to check out is you've sat down with
Speaker 2: a lot of people who are super high achievers and
Speaker 2: also people who study super high achievers. And I listened
Speaker 2: to your episode with David Senra Is that right? Isn't
Speaker 2: my Getting his Name Right? Podcast? Yeah, founder's podcast I've
Speaker 2: listened to, and I listened to you talk to him,
Speaker 2: and then I listened to a number of Cenra's episodes.
Speaker 2: I love the Enzo Ferrari and Yeah, but one thing,
Speaker 2: and I know you've touched on this, and I just
Speaker 2: wanted your your take, and I know you've discussed this
Speaker 2: in on other forums, But because I think about this
Speaker 2: all the time, and I think about this in the
Speaker 2: people that I see around me. I mean, growing up
Speaker 2: in New York City, I certainly saw and was around
Speaker 2: people who were at that level of success where they
Speaker 2: are famous, rich and powerful beyond the wildest dreams of
Speaker 2: you know, ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of
Speaker 2: the population, and some of them were deeply miserable with
Speaker 2: her fit personal lives. And I was close enough to it.
Speaker 2: I mean I would sometimes be in the you know,
Speaker 2: I was like friends with the kids or the grandkids,
Speaker 2: right Like I would be in the house with and
Speaker 2: I'd say, Okay, well you got you know, you got
Speaker 2: fifteen billion or whatever, and you've got a lot of properties,
Speaker 2: but you're also on wife number four. Your kids hate
Speaker 2: your guts, and you know you and you look like
Speaker 2: you could keel over at any moment. You're only in
Speaker 2: like your sixties or fifties or whatever. You get the idea,
Speaker 2: is extreme excellence worth the trade off for most people. No.
Speaker 1: In short, no, I don't think so. I think that
Speaker 1: if you were to see the inner texture of most
Speaker 1: of the people that you admire as minds, you would
Speaker 1: feel far more pity than envy for them. That the
Speaker 1: price that most people pay to be absolute top peak
Speaker 1: flight achievers, it's unbearable. It's an unbelievably high cost. And
Speaker 1: there was this really interesting study where they looked at
Speaker 1: the the most common qualities that elite achievers had the
Speaker 1: most successful people. What they had three things superiority complex,
Speaker 1: crippling insecurity, and impulse control. Superiority complex you believe that
Speaker 1: you can do more than other people. Crippling insecurity it
Speaker 1: drives you to prove people wrong. And impulse control you
Speaker 1: can focus yourself and move yourself forward. So what does
Speaker 1: it mean that the people who we admire the most,
Speaker 1: that society says are the most successful are the ones
Speaker 1: who have the least admirable internal states? Probably means that
Speaker 1: you need to work out from first principles what you
Speaker 1: care about in life, and you need to go after
Speaker 1: that as opposed to doing what you think other people
Speaker 1: do for success, because the people that are the most successful,
Speaker 1: I think, on average, are more miserable than the normal person.
Speaker 2: Does seem that what was it the Greeks had? The concept?
Speaker 2: Was it Metron? Like balance in all things? Yeah? Am
Speaker 2: I crazy on that one? I don't know. I might
Speaker 2: have paid something up.
Speaker 1: Metron sounds like a sci fi show, but I'm down
Speaker 1: for it. If you say it's legit.
Speaker 2: I might have totally mean I might have just yeah, well,
Speaker 2: hold on a moderation and good measure pan Metron addistan?
Speaker 2: Is that right? There? We go? Yeah? All right, yeah,
Speaker 2: so I was like kind of I was like in
Speaker 2: the I was in the realm of this is what
Speaker 2: have you? A podcast? You just say stuff out loud
Speaker 2: as it comes into your brain. Right. It was like
Speaker 2: part of the phrase which is balance in all things
Speaker 2: or you know, everything in moderation metron iris on everything
Speaker 2: in moderation. Okay, there we go. Now, I'm it did
Speaker 2: sound like.
Speaker 3: I had like a you know, a laser cannon instead
Speaker 3: of a hen and I was like, you know, doing
Speaker 3: somersaults around and shooting wizard people or something, but you know,
Speaker 3: the same basic idea.
Speaker 2: All right, man, Chris, I really appreciate you making the time.
Speaker 2: I know you're super busy. Just I wanted to give
Speaker 2: you this before you go. Everyone check out Modern Wizard podcast. Obviously,
Speaker 2: as you can tell, I've listened to a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of episodes myself. That's why I want to have Chris
Speaker 2: on and what is you know, we've talked about some
Speaker 2: things that are a little little bit of of a bummer,
Speaker 2: you could say, like the decline and possible collapse of
Speaker 2: the human specie, the destruction of masculinity, a bunch of
Speaker 2: things female mental health, Like there are some look when
Speaker 2: you spend time thinking about things, it should be about
Speaker 2: challenges and whereas you can fix it, which we've done
Speaker 2: a little bit of. What is though the most if
Speaker 2: you're just trying to tell people about something that you
Speaker 2: have found from your work or from your reflection on
Speaker 2: all things recently, that makes you hopeful.
Speaker 1: Pretty much everybody that's listening to this has spent time
Speaker 1: imagining just how catastrophic some scenario could occur right laid
Speaker 1: awake at night, worrying, neurotic thought loops, unable to sleep,
Speaker 1: unable to relax. And yet every single person that is
Speaker 1: sat here listening to us right now has got through
Speaker 1: whatever challenge they faced. As far as I can see,
Speaker 1: everybody is way, way, way more capable, infinitely more capable
Speaker 1: of dealing whatever life can throw at them than their
Speaker 1: mind predicts that they can be. And yet each time
Speaker 1: that we face a challenge, we believe that we're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to overcome it. You think we'll
Speaker 1: hang in a second. I have a stack of undeniable
Speaker 1: proof behind me, every single thing that I've come up against.
Speaker 1: I'm here, I virtue of being here. I've got through it.
Speaker 1: So I think that resilience is proved one day at
Speaker 1: a time, and every single person that is sat here
Speaker 1: listening to this has that resilience. They have a stack
Speaker 1: of undeniable proof that they can get through whatever the
Speaker 1: world faces and throws at them.
Speaker 2: So there reason why everybody to read Shackleton Endurance, which
Speaker 2: is my favorite book that has been for a long time.
Speaker 1: Alfred, Oh my god, dude, phenomenal. Let me give you
Speaker 1: a suggestion before I go.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: The Forgotten Highlander by Alistair Urkhart Gentlemen is kidnapped by
Speaker 1: the Japanese in World War Two in Singapore, tortured for
Speaker 1: five years, builds the bridge over the river Quai, gets
Speaker 1: knocked off his feet by the bomb blast from Nagasaki,
Speaker 1: survives it all and then stays silent for fifty years
Speaker 1: because of the British government, and writes a memoir calling
Speaker 1: the Japanese to account. The Forgotten Highlander. Alistair Urkhart amazing
Speaker 1: by it.
Speaker 2: As soon as we're done, Chris Williamson, man, thank you
Speaker 2: so much, and please come on. We have a radio
Speaker 2: show that you should have. I mean, this is the podcast.
Speaker 2: The radio show is about five hundred stations, so it's
Speaker 2: technically the biggest radio show in the country. We would
Speaker 2: love to have you on. So just let us know
Speaker 2: a play in Buck. We'll get it going. Man, A
Speaker 2: lot of interesting stuff I want. I want the conservative
Speaker 2: audience to hear more of your I know a lot
Speaker 2: of them listen to you, but you know I want
Speaker 2: even more of them too. So thank you so much, man,
Speaker 2: Thank you for making the time.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you. Thank you, man.