1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and. 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new 8 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: This is buried Bones. 13 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, Paul, how are you? 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: No, I'm doing good. I've got my energy drink. I'm 15 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 2: getting ready. How are you doing? 16 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty well. I am excited to say that 17 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: we are opening up Wicked Words for business once again. 18 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: We've concluded tenfold more Wicked and it's three seasons and 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: Wicked Words premieres in just a few days. The trailers 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: out right now, and I love love that show. That 21 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: was our origin story, that's the beginning of it. You 22 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: and I were on Wicked Words together. 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 2: Was that? So that was for Bessie Ferguson. 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: Right, That was Bessie Ferguson, and we actually have another 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: Bessie in this story that we're going to talk about. 26 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: But wicked Words. Going down that road with journalists and 27 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, with people who are authors like yourself, it's 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: such a wonderful journey for me to take a break 29 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: from talking and to just listen. I listened to you, 30 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: but I also talk it off a lot, and I 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: like to listen to two journalists. And you were such 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a help on that story about Bessie Ferguson that I 33 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: am always excited to talk to a new slew of people. 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: And so remind me the wicked words is you are 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: bringing in somebody who has written an article, written a 36 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: book and they tell the story themselves. 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, So it's the stories behind the stories. 38 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: And I'm always surprised about how open and honest the 39 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: journalists can be about mistakes that they've made and the 40 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: reporting and things they've done that made them feel a 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: little bit uncomfortable with sources, challenges that they had their 42 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: points of view of the story. Because oftentimes you'll read 43 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: one of my books, or you'll read you something written 44 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times, 45 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: and I often wonder, I wonder what the journalists really 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: thought about this person that they were covering, And in 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: wicked words, you find out a lot of details because 48 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: I ask questions like that, what did you really think 49 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: of this guy? Did you really believe he did it 50 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: or didn't do it? Or what made you uncomfortable about 51 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: the story? 52 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? No, And that's an interesting perspective, you know. Over 53 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 2: my career, of course, I've had many interactions with journalists 54 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: on on cases where they're trying to get information and 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: sometimes it's off the record, sometimes it's on the record, 56 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: and it's been hit or miss in terms of the 57 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: accuracy of what they've written, you know. So that's where 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: I've always just been, oh, you know, how is this 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: going to be portrayed in the article that they're writing. 60 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: And sometimes it's not negligence on their part or even 61 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: purposeful deceit. It's if they're covering, let's say a lab result, 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: and they're now trying to write about something like a 63 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: complicated science, they summarize it and they don't recognize that 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 2: they've summarized it wrong, at least factually. 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: And I know that that can be damaging in some 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: of these cases. Let me ask what technique works on 67 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: you with a journalist. Is it someone who just sounds 68 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: like they've done loads of research on the story already 69 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: and sounds educated, or what's the best way to get 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: an investigator to talk to you with details that they're 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: comfortable with they just are unsure about journalists in general? 72 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: I would say there's definitely times where it doesn't matter 73 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: who the journalist is or what the journalist is asking, 74 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: there's just no way that details are going to be 75 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: passed on just due to the sensitivity of the details 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: of the case. You know. Notably, as an example, you know, 77 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 2: we had Lacy Peterson wash up in my jurisdiction, and 78 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: that was the biggest story in the world at the time. 79 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: The big news trucks, satellite trucks are parked out in 80 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: the corners parking lot, et cetera, and this is where 81 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: from on high you receive orders you will not talk 82 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: to the media. But for routine stuff, it really is 83 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 2: oftentimes it's journalists that have established a relationship. You know, 84 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: it's somebody I've talked to before. They definitely appear to 85 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: be above board in terms of how they cover stories. 86 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: They're not scandalous, they're not going for that type of thing. 87 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 2: They're really just trying to report the facts, and that 88 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: type of journalist. Once I have a relationship, I'm more 89 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: likely to say, hey, you know the record, just be prepared. 90 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: There's going to be this new information coming and you're 91 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: going to have a head start in terms of researching it. 92 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 2: So it really is somebody that has proven themselves over 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 2: time to me, not only in the interactions, but in 94 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: what they've written, you know. And I think notably people 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: who are familiar with my career was Michelle McNamara, and 96 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: that really was somebody that we established a relationship. But 97 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: I was unsure because I'd never seen her write anything 98 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 2: until she wrote something and I had divulged some information 99 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: that I didn't want out there that was off the record, 100 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: and she kept it out in the article and she 101 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: earned my trust and from that point on I was 102 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: wide open with. 103 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: Her, and I think that's really important. I teach journalism 104 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: students people know at the University of Texas, and they 105 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: asked me how do you establish trust? And I said, 106 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: it takes time. It is also the people going back 107 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: and reading your books, your articles and getting a sense 108 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: for who you are as a journalist, who you write for. 109 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: Are you sensational? And one of the things that I 110 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: do at the end of every interview is I'll say, listen, 111 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 1: this has been really great. You've given me some valuable information. 112 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: I will probably have questions. I might be confused. Can 113 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 1: I make sure that you know, I said, okay, if 114 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: I circle back and ask you more questions, and you know, 115 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: make sure that these quotes were accurate, and that might 116 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: not happen. I might not circle back, I might not 117 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: need to. But I think it leaves my sources with 118 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: a sense that why she actually cares, she wants to 119 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: be accurate, and she is willing to come back and say, well, 120 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: I don't really understand this part. And I think that's 121 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: very important and I think most of my students do 122 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: that now well. 123 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: And especially you know, working with law enforcement, you know, 124 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: if an investigator is releasing information on a case, they 125 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: want that information to be accurate as to the forum 126 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: and which law enforcement is putting it out there. There's 127 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: usually a reason why law enforcement wants that information out 128 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: in that manner at that particular time, and so that 129 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: fact checking becomes important. Oftentimes. So what ends up happening 130 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: is is that you release, law enforcement releases information, but 131 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: then the journalists, investigati journalists, they are good researchers, and 132 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: they start digging, and pretty soon now they have found 133 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 2: out more information, They've tracked down witnesses on the case, 134 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: and now that information gets added into the article, and 135 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: law enforcement was going, oh, that's not exactly what we 136 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: wanted to broadcast at this point in time due to 137 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 2: where we are at in our investigation. But there's no 138 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 2: way to stop that process. You know, that's just part 139 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: of the freedom of speech aspect. But it is that 140 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: when in a a roundtable discussion within law enforcement, what 141 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: are we going to tell the media? It's also okay, 142 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: what is going to be the domino effect? Are we 143 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: willing to risk the investigation because of that particular domino 144 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: effect happening? 145 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And my hope is that all investigators are offering 146 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: evidence that they are comfortable with offering that will help 147 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: the public or help them track down a suspect or 148 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: clarify what's happening in the case. And certainly my hope 149 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: is that the journalists who are responding to these stories 150 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: are taking that information and doing the right thing with it, 151 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: because ultimately, what we're supposed to do is serve the 152 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: public shine light on things that are in the darkness. 153 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: So when you and I go through these episodes, we're 154 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: always aiming to be as accurate as possible, as detailed 155 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: as possible. Things fall through. It happens with any sort 156 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: of journalistic piece that you do, but always the intent 157 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: is there, at least for the journalists that I know 158 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: and I'm close to do the very best we can 159 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: to offer the amount of information and with the accuracy 160 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: that I think the public deserves when they're consuming information 161 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: from us. So that's enough of my rant I think 162 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: about good journalism, and you're done with your rant about 163 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,439 Speaker 1: good journalists also, and we will move on to hopefully 164 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: good journalism with a case that is just wild to me. 165 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: Lots of yellow all over my prep document, lots of 166 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: questions for you, and some nice little twists and turns, 167 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: which is a little surprising to me because we're in 168 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds where we don't often get a 169 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: huge amount of details, and this is pretty detailed. So 170 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: I'm setting the scene. Now. We are in Dayton, Ohio, 171 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: so let's talk more about this story. Okay, so this 172 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: is such a big case that we've had to make 173 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: it a two part episode. I assume that you never 174 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: get tired of hearing about a really complicated, in depth case. 175 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: You did just ask me if you need to take 176 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: more extensive notes than usual, So we'll see. He may 177 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 1: be nervous about a two parter. 178 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: No. I know for me, as I listened to the story, 179 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: where I start losing tracks just if there's a lot 180 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: of names, you know, And so that's where sometimes I'll 181 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: just say, and what was the wife's name or who's 182 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: the boyfriend's name? And I'll need that reminder. 183 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, the very first person we're talking about is a 184 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: woman named Bessie Little. So let's first talk about where 185 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: we are. This is Dayton, Ohio, eighteen ninety six. So 186 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: this is smack in the middle of the guilded Age, 187 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: which I love to write about. The guilded age. I 188 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: think when we think of the guilded age in America, 189 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: I often think about New York Boss Tweed, corrupt politicians, 190 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: gold and diamonds and money and parties where you get 191 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: a ten thousand dollars bill under your plate, very very opulent, 192 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: and Dayton Ohio. Don't get the impression. Is that sort 193 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: of place in eighteen ninety six. I think that there are, 194 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, the typical amount in any city where you 195 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: would have, you know, people who are in poverty, people 196 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: who are wealthy. And we have two people here who 197 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: come from both sides, one who is wealthy, one who 198 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,479 Speaker 1: is not, and how their social circles sort of collide 199 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: in what might be a crime and what might not 200 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: be a crime. And I know that this is the 201 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: most vague information possible going into a story, but I 202 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 1: sometimes like to tell you stuff like that so you're 203 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: sort of key to up and ready to unravel this. 204 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, is there a case or not? 205 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: All right, Paul, Okay, let's jump right into it. Then 206 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: there's a man swimming in the Miami River in September 207 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: of eighteen ninety six, and this is in Dayton, Ohio, 208 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: and he sees something horrific which you would call, I 209 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: think a bobber? Right? Is that what you would call 210 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: somebody a body in the water? 211 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 2: You know, at least out of where I come from, 212 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,359 Speaker 2: we just would call them floaters. 213 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: Floaters, that's a floaters. And it was some terrible term. 214 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one case a man whose head and 215 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: hands had been cut off, and he has weighed down 216 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: at his ankles, and so his decapitated body was bobbing 217 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: up and down. So in that instance I would say, yeah, 218 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: that's probably a bobber. But yeah, typically we say floater. 219 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: Well, this one, we'll see. So he is swimming and 220 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: he sees a woman's foot bobbing just above the river's surface, 221 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: and he freaks out as anyone, and he calls the police. 222 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: The police chief comes. His name is Thomas Ferrell. There 223 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: are only a few characters I think in this story 224 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: that really matter. And when I do the research, and 225 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: when Maren does a research, I try to sort of 226 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: minimize the amount of names, because I know you don't 227 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: want to be confused by names. So I've tried to 228 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: pair this down to only the people who really count. 229 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: So they retrieve the body. It's of a woman, and 230 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: they send it over to the coroner in Dayton, and 231 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: the coroner looks for signs of an assault or a struggle, 232 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: and he rules this a suicide. He doesn't see any 233 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: marks anywhere, and he thinks that this is just a 234 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: woman who jumped off the bridge and into the river. 235 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: He does not do an autopsy that shows what we 236 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: would talk about with a drowning water and the lungs 237 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,479 Speaker 1: or any of that. And I straight away don't understand 238 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: why you would not look deeper into a body in 239 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: the river. 240 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: Well the pathologist should you know, there's no ques question 241 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 2: that a complete autopsy is the standard of practice under 242 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: these circumstances, especially today, But it does beg the question 243 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: in terms of, Okay, so you have a woman's body, 244 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,559 Speaker 2: is this body fully closed? How decomposed is the body? 245 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: You know, more information to see why the pathologist came 246 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: to such an opinion just with a superficial examination of the. 247 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: Body, right, so, very fresh body, very little decomposition at all, 248 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: fully clothed, no signs of sexual assault, which we know 249 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything, no signs of trauma, and just a 250 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: cursory look. He just thought, this is somebody who had 251 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: jumped off of the bridge. And she is unclaimed, so 252 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: we don't know who this person is and unidentified. Nobody 253 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,599 Speaker 1: is saying there's a missing woman, and she is subsequently 254 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: buried in a potter's field and labeled as someone who 255 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: had taken her own life. Then she has forgotten for 256 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: just a few days and I think again, the most 257 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: startling part of this to me was, I don't know 258 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: if it was out of propriety, he didn't undress her 259 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: what the issue was, but the corner just didn't look 260 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: very deeply on whether or not this really was suicide. 261 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: And I was surprised. 262 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this, but basically there is no autopsy 263 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: that was done in this case. And that is very unfortunate, 264 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: you know, because even with this theory that this is 265 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: a woman who jumped off the bridge, Okay, how high 266 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: is the bridge, What is the depth of the water 267 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 2: at that location. You know, there's going to be aspects 268 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: that you know, let's say it's a fairly tall bridge, 269 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 2: it's shallow water. Is there any aspect of the structure 270 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 2: of the bridge that she may have impacted on the 271 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: way down? You know, I would be looking to see 272 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: is there evidence to say that, yes, she could have 273 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: jumped off this bridge and there would be no expectation 274 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 2: of injury as noted on this particular body in order 275 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: to support that theory. But he must have been in 276 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: a rush to get out for a dinner date or something. 277 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 2: You know, there is no excuse to do what he 278 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: did in this case. Right, a complete lack of effort. 279 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: I agree. So let me show you the bridge. I 280 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: was going to show you this a little bit later 281 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: because there are some things involving that bridge that are important, 282 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: and I don't think this is going to give you 283 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: all of the information. But you did ask about is 284 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: there anything that would have been an object that she 285 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: could have struck her head against or anything like that. 286 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: So this is the bridge. This is the bridge that 287 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: several different sources have said they believe. This is what 288 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: the bridge. It was kind of unnamed in a lot 289 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: of the contemporary newspapers. So this seems really wide. This 290 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: is consistent with what it looked like in eighteen ninety six. 291 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, this is just a you know, standard 292 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: little road bridge. I'm not sure you know, in terms 293 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 2: of the engineering term. But you see the steel infrastructure 294 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 2: with fencing along both sides the roadway. It appears you 295 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 2: know that, you know, somebody who wants to jump off 296 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: the bridge would have to get over that fencing. What 297 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: I can't see from this photo is if there's any 298 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: aspect of the structure of the bridge beneath it that 299 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: sticks out, Are there any piers? And then of course, 300 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 2: you know, what is the depth of the water if 301 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: she were to jump off this bridge, because at least 302 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 2: judging by what I can see on either side of 303 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: the bridge that the bridge goes over this bridge, there's 304 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: trees that look like fairly mature trees that I'm assuming 305 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: are twenty feet or higher. It almost appears at this bridge, 306 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 2: you know, down to the water is maybe as high 307 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: as twenty feet or more. So this is a substantial 308 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: distance for human body to fall and impact the water. 309 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 2: And even just that impact, especially when we see out 310 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 2: in the Bay Area, you know, people that jump off 311 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: of like the Golden Gate Bridge. You know, they hit 312 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 2: the water with such speed that that causes injuries. I 313 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: can't say that that would happen here, but it's something 314 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: that has to be taken into. 315 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: Consideration, right and again, you know, one of the points 316 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: is is we don't know how she ended up in 317 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: the water. They're assuming that if this were a suicide, 318 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: it would be of her jumping off of this bridge. 319 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: So the chief of police does not agree necessarily with 320 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: the corner. He had been hearing rumors that there was 321 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,439 Speaker 1: a man who said that he had a girlfriend he 322 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: had seen her take her own life, and that he 323 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: had dumped her body from the bridge into the water. 324 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: This was a rumor that had been started by a 325 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: confession that this man, Albert Frantz, made to a reverend. 326 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: So the chief of police had heard this, but there 327 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: was really no reason to approach him because it was 328 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: sort of a rumor. But then when this woman shows 329 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: up in the river, he thinks, okay, well maybe there 330 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: is something to this. Again, not really suspicious. He had 331 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,959 Speaker 1: just heard that this happened and it was something that 332 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: kind of stayed in his mind. So when this woman 333 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: was discovered in the river, he just thought, well, this 334 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: is something to investigate, and I'm not one hundred percent 335 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: sure that this was actually a suicide. 336 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: Well, and part of what the chief has is local 337 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 2: knowledge in terms of the frequency of the various types 338 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 2: of crime that occur within his jurisdiction. 339 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: Right, so the chief wants to know more about this man. 340 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: And the way that all of this goes down is 341 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: the man is named Albert Franz, and Albert Franz is 342 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: the one who went to his reverend and said, my 343 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: girlfriend took her own life. I tossed her body over 344 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: the Dayton Bridge out of despair. I didn't know what 345 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: else to do. I didn't want her family to be embarrassed. 346 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: The reverend connected France with a judge for legal advice 347 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: because he said, I need this off my hands. So 348 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: he sends them to someone else who is committed to 349 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: keeping a secret, and the judge gave him some legal advice, 350 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: which I'm pretty sure is keep your mouth shut. And 351 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: they tried to keep this all under wraps. So the 352 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: reverend had really not said anything, the judge had not, 353 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: and yet this gets out, and it starts spreading around 354 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: that Albert and his girlfriend, a woman named Bessie Little, 355 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: this had happened with Bessie, and that he has confessed 356 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 1: that he disposed of the body. The first big question 357 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: to me is why are people trying to keep this 358 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: under wraps, because you would think that that's a little odd. 359 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: You know, I understand disposing of a body is against 360 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: the law, but you now have a judge and a 361 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 1: reverend who are really trying to keep this quiet. And 362 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: it's because Albert is from a very wealthy family, which 363 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: starts to explain a little bit more about this story, 364 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 1: because Bessie is not from a wealthy family. 365 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting is that at this point, you have 366 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: three people who have knowledge, Albert, the judge, and the reverend, 367 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 2: and yet there's a leak. There's a rumor that got started. 368 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: So somebody told somebody was the judge Mary Did he 369 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: talked to his wife did? She ends up saying, Hey, 370 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: I'm hearing this to maybe her you know, best friend, 371 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 2: And that's how things start. You think you're just talking 372 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 2: to a confidant, and then that person thinks they're talking 373 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: to a confidant, but it just spreads. So that's that's 374 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 2: just an interesting phenomenon that we experience all the time 375 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 2: in law enforcement. You know, the rumors on the street 376 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: just spread like wildfire, and oftentimes the facts are wrong, 377 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: but there's frequently a core nugget that has some truth 378 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: to it for the reason of that rumor, but also 379 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: this she took her own life and then I'm disposing 380 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,159 Speaker 2: of the body or you have to get to the 381 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: bottom of that, you know, right, and do you have 382 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: a desecration of human corpse? You know, there's different types 383 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 2: of statutes against doing it, but they're typically minor crimes 384 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: versus is this a homicide and trying to cover up 385 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: the homicide and second guessing am I going to be 386 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: able to get away with this, and now seeding through 387 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 2: this confession and talking to the judge that it really 388 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: was a suicide and who's just trying to get rid 389 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: of the body. 390 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: I agree, And to Chief Ferrell's credit, we often talk 391 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: about the lack of effort from corners and investigators in 392 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, I think simply because they just didn't 393 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: have as many resources as we do now. Of course, 394 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: Chief Ferrell, throughout this entire investigation goes above and beyond 395 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned. He talks to France. France 396 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: gives him the story she took her own life. He's 397 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: very vague about why I threw her body over the bridge, 398 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: and you know, have been mourning her death ever since. 399 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: He does not take his word for it. He arranges 400 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: to have the corpse to be exhumed, and this is 401 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,719 Speaker 1: one exhumation of two that happens to poor Bessie Little. 402 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: He has exhumed the body and he looks to confirm. 403 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: He wants to just confirm that this is her, first 404 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: of all, because remember she's in a potter's field. She's 405 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: on identified. He identifies her using dental records and this 406 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: is confirmed twenty three year old Bessie Little. He goes 407 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: to her parents, who are her adoptive parents, to corroborate 408 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: the identification, and her mother and father say, we haven't 409 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: talked to her in several weeks, but they didn't think 410 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: that this was suspicious because they had sort of had 411 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: a lack of communication with her ever since she moved 412 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 1: out of their house and moved into this local boarding house. Again, 413 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: lack of communication in the eighteen hundreds is not at 414 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: all surprising to me. This happened all the time. People 415 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: just wouldn't see each other or talk for weeks or 416 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: months at a time. 417 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: Well, you could have just pick up a phone and 418 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: say hi, you know, it was a different era. He 419 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 2: had to actually go walk down the street to go 420 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: and talk to somebody. You know something you said. Though, 421 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: that was surprising to me is the use of dental 422 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 2: records in eighteen ninety six. Okay, I was not expecting that. 423 00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: I thought that they would have resorted to almost having 424 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 2: to have the parents come in and take a look 425 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: at Bessie's remains in order to do this. So the 426 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: fact that a dentist had paper records that had sufficient 427 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: detail to be able to be matched to the dentician 428 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: in the body is surprising to me. 429 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 1: And I'm often surprised about what they did have as 430 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 1: a resource. Toxicology in the late eighteen hundreds was viable, 431 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,360 Speaker 1: there were quite a lot of forensic tools. Still it's 432 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: the lack of resources still stymied investigators. But again, I 433 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: see Chief Ferrell as being the real hero here because 434 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: he is concerned about the supposed suicide of this young 435 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: woman from his town, and he is pursuing it, and 436 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: he is not trusting who turns out to be an 437 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: affluent member of their society. Chief Ferrell is a little 438 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: confused about the lack of communication between the parents and 439 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: Bessie Little, and it's because they don't live very far apart, 440 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: and he assumed that a woman of her age twenty three, 441 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: you would have kept in better touch with her parents. 442 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: So he goes back and says to the Littles, why 443 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: did she leave again? And they said, well, you know, 444 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: she wanted to be independent. She wanted to strike out 445 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: on her own and find more work opportunities. But he 446 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 1: keeps asking them questions and at some point the Littles 447 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: confess that they kicked Bessie out of the house because 448 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 1: she had been having premarital sex with Albert Franz. I'm 449 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: surprised they didn't cut her off completely because in the 450 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds that would have been expected. They found out 451 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: she was having sex before marriage, goodbye, and that's it. 452 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: There was a very little sympathy for a woman in 453 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, So that is the story. They booted 454 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: her out and she was on her own at this hotel. 455 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's obviously information that goes to Bessie's victimology. 456 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 2: It's establishing that her and Albert had a physical relationship, 457 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: you know, so it really shows that Albert and Bessie 458 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: are in this very close relationship. But the parents kicking 459 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: the daughter out isn't a crime, you know, this isn't 460 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 2: anything that would be something that the chief would be 461 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: following up on. It's just of note. It's establishing her 462 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: timeline at the boarding home. Is Albert frequently coming over? 463 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 2: You know? Do they have witnesses there? And is Bessie 464 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,400 Speaker 2: going over to Albert's place? And do you have witnesses there? 465 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: Start branching, you know, now that you have identified the 466 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: victim and you understand the relationship between the victim and 467 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 2: Albert is a suspect at this point. You know, you're 468 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: trying to determine did he kill her or is he 469 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 2: just disposing of her body? This provides the direction of 470 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 2: the investigation now that you know this background. 471 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: Well, here's the issue. Poor Chief Ferrell is relegated to 472 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: using the same corner who had examined Bessie in a 473 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: crappy way as far as I'm to begin with. And 474 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: when he makes a positive identification and goes back to 475 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: the corner and says, let's take another look, the coroner 476 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: takes another look and still says, I think she died 477 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: by suicide. I do not think this was murder, and 478 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: she is reburied once again. I still don't understand how 479 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: that can happen, and that he doesn't do a more 480 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: thorough investigation, because I'll give you a hint, pol another 481 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: doctor does, and he does find things. 482 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 2: With this second attempt by this pathologist. Does he actually 483 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: do a dissection of the body this time? 484 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like it. I think it's just a 485 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: cursory examination yet again, and says I am not convinced 486 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: that this is anything other than a suicide. 487 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 2: You know this just smacks it incompetence by this initial pathologist. 488 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: Which must be frustrating to a chief of police who 489 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: I consider to be very competent. At this point, he 490 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: is working all of the angles, and he has managed 491 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: to get some very important victimology information out of the 492 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: Littles in that they had a acrimonious relationship with their 493 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: daughter because she was having premarital sex, and that premarital 494 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: sex causes some pretty big issues in a little bit, 495 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: as we'll find out. But let's talk about one half 496 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: of this couple, Albert Frantz. He's twenty, so he's three 497 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: years younger than Bessie. And you know, Bessie was from 498 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: a fairly poor family and France is very wealthy, as 499 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: I had mentioned before, and I think that might have 500 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: been an influence over the corner that this would have 501 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: never occurred to him, that anyone like Albert who would 502 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 1: have been involved with Bessie would have taken her life. 503 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: I think this might have been a classist thing. I'm 504 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: not really sure, or as you said, just a really incompetent, 505 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: lazy corner. 506 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 2: Or is this pathologist on the take? 507 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah? 508 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: Is there a possibility that Franz whether on his own 509 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: are talking to this judge. It was brought up. Well, 510 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: Bessie's body is going to be found. She'll end up 511 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: at the corner's office. And now you know, before the 512 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: body comes in, you have somebody looking out for Franz 513 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: telling the coroner if this body comes in, it's a suicide. 514 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,959 Speaker 1: I don't think i've ever heard you say on the 515 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: take before. I think you need to use that phrase 516 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: on the take. I think the more mobby type phrases 517 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: we could use, the better. And it never occurs to me. 518 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm so innocent. It never occurs to me that people 519 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: are being paid off. It takes a lot for me 520 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: to think, oh, man, maybe that person is being paid off. 521 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,160 Speaker 1: And I would never have thought of paying off the corner, 522 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 1: but that does make sense as one option. 523 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 2: Well, you're putting a rumor out on the street, you 524 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: know of this suicide, and then you're also now paying off, 525 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 2: you know, people who would have influence over the direction 526 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 2: of the investigation, and you have the resources to do it. 527 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: Well, let's say that this is a murder, and let's 528 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: say that Albert is our prime suspect. If we're looking 529 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: at his history, he doesn't have a criminal history at all. 530 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: People say in the town he's snotty, he spoiled, he's 531 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: given too much in life, but he has a good 532 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: reputation and he seems to be respected by friends and acquaintances. 533 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: And friends of Bessie and Albert say there doesn't appear 534 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: to be physical violence or any verbal abuse anything like that. 535 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: We also know that doesn't mean anything. There is an 536 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: awful lot of things that happen behind closed doors. But 537 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: on the surface Albert seems to be a little spoiled. 538 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: But other than that, an okay person for her to 539 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: be involved. 540 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: With, right, you know, But you still have to come 541 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: down to how did Bessie truly die? Yep, And no 542 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: matter Albert's past behavioral history and lack of violence doesn't 543 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 2: mean he's not capable of violence in a particular moment. 544 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 2: And so that's really key to understand is, of course, 545 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: in evaluating suspects, their past history does factor in in 546 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: terms of I think this person is more like likely 547 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 2: than not to be capable of committing this type crime. 548 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: But just because you have somebody who has got a 549 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: clean criminal history, no known behavioral issues, doesn't mean that 550 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: in a particular moment that they could flare up and 551 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 2: commit violence. 552 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: What I'm about to tell you, I think I sometimes 553 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: like to categorize when we're talking about murder versus suicide, 554 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: what category this would go under? This information, And I'm 555 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: afraid that this kind of goes in both columns. And 556 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, we'll see why Chief Pharaoh wanted to know 557 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 1: how long they had been together, how they met. People 558 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: had very vague answers. Nobody really knew. I'm not sure 559 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: that this was some huge public romance. I think that 560 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: they were dating, that Albert seemed to like her, but 561 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: I don't know if he felt like they were on 562 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: track to be married. And it could have simply been 563 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: from where she came from and what her socioeconomic level was. 564 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: But police eventually learn after a lot of questioning, that 565 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: Bessie had been pressuring Albert to marry her before she died, 566 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: and they search her house and she ferrel finds a 567 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: letter that was addressed to Albert Franz's father that begged 568 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: the father to force Albert to marry her. And now 569 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: that seems like a motive for murder right now, So 570 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: she is saying, for whatever reason your son has to 571 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: marry me. 572 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 2: Well is she holding the fact that they're having premieral 573 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: sex over his head. You know, I will expose you, 574 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: cause you and your family damage to your reputations unless 575 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: you marry me. And maybe she's truly in love, but 576 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: she's also seeing deep pockets. 577 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: Yes, And this letter was never sent, but Albert's father 578 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: later said that he had received other letters from Bessie 579 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: before she wrote him a letter saying that she was 580 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: this is a quote, sorry to trouble an old man 581 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: like him with his son's misdoings, but that she wanted 582 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: Albert to marry her and right the wrong he had 583 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: done to her, and that if he didn't, she would 584 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: take her own life. So to put that in context 585 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: in eighteen hundred terms, we've talked about the heartbalm lawsuits before. 586 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: This does not necessarily mean he got her pregnant and 587 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: she needs to be married. This absolutely could mean we've 588 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: had sex. I am sullied to other men. Unless he 589 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: marries me. He has no other choice. So at first 590 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, maybe she's pregnant, But it doesn't have. 591 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 2: To be that. 592 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, it could be as simple as 593 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: we had sex. He has to marry me otherwise, no 594 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: one else will marry me. 595 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 2: So she's writing the letters to Albert's father. Yeah, and 596 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 2: Albert's father is the one probably that controls the monies. 597 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 2: He's reasoned this family is wealthy, he has a reputation 598 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: in town. He now is recognizing this woman could hurt 599 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 2: the family. So from my perspective, of course Albert is 600 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 2: a suspect. Is it possible that he caused harm to 601 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: Bessy to get himself out of this predicament? But now 602 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: is Albert's father who would be the type that could 603 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 2: have a corner on the take? Yeah, you know, have 604 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: that political influence and the life experience to recognize we 605 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: need to nip this in the bud, right, And so 606 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 2: now I think the chief has almost another prong to 607 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: his investigation. You have to take a look at Albert's father. 608 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: And what's interesting is she refers to him as an 609 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: old man. So as you were talking, I was thinking, 610 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: so what if he does it? What if the father 611 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: does it but an old man? And then I remember 612 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: you saying old man's strength, And then I remember the 613 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: reality is is that in the eighteen hundreds of sorry Paul, 614 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: but old man could have been a fifty five year 615 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: old because life expectancy was not what it is now. 616 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: So the son was twenty, he could have been in 617 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: his fifties, and of course perfectly capable of killing someone 618 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: and tossing them over a bridge, as I'm assuming you 619 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: would be capable if need be. So I guess my 620 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: old man theory is out the window. 621 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 2: I am not going to confirm nor deny my ability 622 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 2: to get rid of. 623 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: A bible old man's strength. 624 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 2: No, well, I mean you really think about it of 625 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: Albertus twenty in all likelihood as fathers in his forties. 626 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, could be. So this is again a very common thing, 627 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: the Heartbalum lawsuit. And she might not have even been 628 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: threatening a lawsuit, but that was a thing where you 629 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: could sue a man and it would ruin them, and 630 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: it was always in the newspapers. So this is a 631 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: very valid reason to kill someone in the eighteen hundreds, and. 632 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: It's going to be very apparent to the Franz family. 633 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: You know the direction that this possibly can go. 634 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: Yep. So let's talk about the timeline. And I know 635 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: you want to talk about cause of death, and I 636 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: have one, but I just am trying to get the 637 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: characters out of the way. The victimology out of the 638 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 1: way and the timeline out of the way, and we'll 639 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: talk about the confusing forensics involved with her death. So 640 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: here's the timeline. Police are interviewing Bessie's landlady, because remember 641 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: she's now out of her parents' house and into the 642 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: boarding house, and she was there for the last week 643 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: of her life. And the woman's name is Minnie Many 644 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: confirms that Albert Franz had been paying Bessie's rent at 645 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,760 Speaker 1: the boarding house. So what does that say to you. 646 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. Albert is twenty years old, right, how 647 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: is he paying? Is he paying with money that he 648 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 2: has personally earned? Is he paying with money that his 649 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 2: dad is giving him as a weekly allowance. It also 650 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: shows that Bessie is relying upon Albert for those financial 651 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 2: resources after her parents have kicked her out. And so 652 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: this kind of weaves a tighter web in terms of 653 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 2: the burden that Bessie was having on the Franz family. 654 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 2: She's not an independent woman like the parents initially claimed 655 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 2: that she wanted to be. She is relying on the 656 00:35:58,960 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 2: frans As in. 657 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: Order to Now this timeline becomes very important and it 658 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,800 Speaker 1: will be to you for a body in the river. 659 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: So Minnie says, is she is the last person to 660 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: see Bessie alive as far as we know, aside from 661 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: if there is a killer or not. She says that 662 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,959 Speaker 1: about six days before Bessie's body is discovered in the river, 663 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: which was this is August twenty seventh, on that night, 664 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: she told Minnie that she was going to go out 665 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: on a buggy ride with France. Again, this is not 666 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 1: a secret relationship. He doesn't appear to be ashamed of her. 667 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: They seem to be openly dating. I don't think he's 668 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: flaunting her anywhere. But Minnie says that she never actually 669 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 1: saw Bessie get into the buggy with Albert. She says, 670 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: then I became alarmed because Bessie never came home that night, 671 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: and that was the last time anybody had seen Bessie little. 672 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: So if we think that that was her last night 673 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: August twenty seventh, and she was discovered six days later, 674 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: what sort of bloating in early September in Ohio. It's 675 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: probably not blazing hot. What sort of bloating can we 676 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: expect after being in a river for five and a 677 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: half days. 678 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 2: Maybe if she had been killed that night, the night 679 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 2: going into the buggy. So we're now talking six days, 680 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 2: and she's been in the water for six days. There 681 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 2: is going to be obvious changes to the body just 682 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 2: due to floating in the water, let alone to the 683 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 2: decomposition that is going to be occurring. Now. The amount 684 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: of decomposition, of course, is going to be dependent on 685 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 2: the water temperature. As I've talked about before, when bodies 686 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 2: are cooled down, it slows down the decompositional process. And 687 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: I would imagine even though this is August to September, 688 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 2: this river water is probably going to be cool. It's 689 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 2: not warm water, so that is going to slow things down. However, 690 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 2: she is in the water and she is going to 691 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 2: be Obviously you look at her, it's probably skin slippage. 692 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: There's going to be a lot of deposits on the body. 693 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 2: I wouldn't imagine there's much in terms of organisms that 694 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 2: are going to necessarily be consuming aspects of the body 695 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 2: within this river environment, as long as she's completely submerged 696 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: and we're not having insects landing on her while she's 697 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: floating on the surface. But it would be pretty apparent 698 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: after six days that, yes, she's been in this river 699 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 2: for a while. 700 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to ask you that again a little 701 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: bit later on, if there is a possibility that the 702 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: corner missed something because of the state of decomposition, potentially 703 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: for being in the river for that long. So what 704 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: Mani says to Chief Feral is that after she didn't 705 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: see Bessie come home that night, Minnie says that France 706 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,760 Speaker 1: stopped by the boarding house and he said, where's Bessie. 707 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: I don't know where she is? And Mani says she 708 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: hadn't seen Bessie since Bessie was supposed to go on 709 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,320 Speaker 1: a buggy ride with Albert Frantz. And France is confused, 710 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: and he says, I didn't go out with her last night. 711 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. He doesn't seem alarmed, 712 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,800 Speaker 1: but he is denying that they were ever together the 713 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: night before. One little note that I think is interesting, 714 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: but I know it's not hard evidence, is that Albert 715 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: told Minnie here is Bessie's rent in advance for next month, 716 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: but just so you know, this will be the last 717 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: payment for her room and board at your boarding house. 718 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: That's a coincidental, isn't it. 719 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to say dun Dundon afterwards. That's how I felt. 720 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 1: I just thought, well, okay, how do you know that? 721 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,439 Speaker 1: And is he cutting her off? What's happening if we're 722 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: on the suicide side, I guess that's what that could mean. 723 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: Is he was planning to break up with her, or 724 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: he told her, I'm breaking up with you, I'm not 725 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 1: supporting you anymore. She takes her own life, he dumps 726 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: her body over, like he says, and everything that he 727 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: has said is true, but this does sound a little 728 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: odd and inconcern with what he had been saying in 729 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: the past. So now everybody's confused. And when the police 730 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 1: go and speak to Albert France, he said exactly the 731 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 1: same thing that he told many. He hadn't been with 732 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: her that night. But because of the rumors surrounding everything 733 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,160 Speaker 1: about Albert Frantz, Chief Ferrel is not convinced. He knows 734 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 1: they're involved. He knows that she has been threatening his 735 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: father with either her taking her own life or something 736 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: where she's trying to pressure the family into pressuring him 737 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: to marry her. So this is all one big mess 738 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: at this point. The problem is is the chief is 739 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: having an issue finding very specific hard evidence any kind 740 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: of forensic evidence that can directly tie Albert France to 741 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 1: what might be a murder. They aren't sure just yet. 742 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: Three days after Bessie's body is discovered, the police are 743 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,240 Speaker 1: examining the bridge that I showed you, and they find 744 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: a pool of blood recently dried, so three days or so, 745 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 1: on the still Water bridge, and this is only about 746 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: a half a mile from where Bessie was found on 747 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: the river. I wonder if recently dried, it must have 748 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: been recently within ten days, not recently within two years 749 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: or something. So they find blood is the big deal. 750 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: They find this blood on the bridge, which is just 751 00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: about a half a mile from where Bessie is found 752 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: in the river. That's not good. 753 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 2: No, well, it's also you know, in eighteen ninety six, 754 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: how do we show that this blood is Bessie's. Yeah, 755 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,760 Speaker 2: you can't, can't really, And I think, you know, maybe 756 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 2: there's an assumption and it could be a correct assumption. 757 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,400 Speaker 2: This now gets back to the autopsy. I don't know 758 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 2: how big this blood pool is, but there's going to 759 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,399 Speaker 2: be a bleeding injury, and yet the pathologist is saying 760 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 2: she has no injuries. 761 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: Okay, I'll get to it. You always make me move 762 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: my drama up. I know it tortures you. So Chief 763 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: Ferrell is stymied and he's had just about enough of 764 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,640 Speaker 1: this coroner, and he hires his own person, surgeon for 765 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: the police department, a brand new person to take another look. 766 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: So they dig up this poor woman's body once again. 767 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 1: And I'm now concerned because now we're talking about let's 768 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: say she died the night she disappeared, so that six 769 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: days and then another three or four days later of 770 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: investigation work, So we're talking about almost two weeks of 771 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: her being in the ground, out of the ground, back 772 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: in the ground, and we cannot assume that she has 773 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: been embalmed, because embalming became a really big deal in 774 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: the Civil War so that they could preserve soldiers' bodies 775 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: to come back and be properly buried and viewed and 776 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: everything by family. But the first undertaker classes weren't until 777 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 1: maybe ten years before this, So I don't think a 778 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,840 Speaker 1: woman who was in a sort of a poor family 779 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: would have been embalmed. And I'm wondering, after two weeks 780 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 1: under the ground, what this might have done with her body. 781 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 2: Well, it's less than ideal, you know, of course, it 782 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 2: also is dependent upon how she is buried. Is she 783 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,760 Speaker 2: in a sealed casket, is she just in a wooden box. 784 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 2: If her body is protected, she's not below the water 785 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,360 Speaker 2: table in the ground, there is still going to be 786 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 2: active decomposition without any embalming going on. But it's possible 787 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 2: that there is still going to be sufficient soft tissue 788 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 2: and of course the skeleton in order for the pathologist 789 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 2: to be able to possibly see, yes, here is you know, 790 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 2: whether it be stab wounds or blunt force trauma or 791 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 2: broken bones, et cetera, that would be fairly readily present 792 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 2: even two weeks after burial. 793 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: Well, the surgeon for the police department comes up with 794 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: some really good information. He performs this examination the third 795 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 1: on Bessie Little, and let's just start with my suspicion, 796 00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: which was that she was pregnant, and that's what the 797 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 1: threat was. Your son needs to do the right thing. 798 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: He must marry me. Doctor Weaver looks at Bessie's internal organs. 799 00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: They all seem to be healthy. There, don't seem to 800 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,840 Speaker 1: be dizzy or anything. But when he looks at her uterus, 801 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: he concludes she was not pregnant at the time of 802 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,279 Speaker 1: her death. Is that possible to ascertain knowing that the 803 00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: body has deteriorated over a couple of weeks. Is that 804 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: something that he would be able to definitively say? 805 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it all depends on what's present, but 806 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 2: I do believe that he would be able to form 807 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 2: that opinion. 808 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so then he looks at her head, so he's 809 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,680 Speaker 1: doing a very thorough examination. Here's the technique which is horrifying, 810 00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,000 Speaker 1: and I've had to write about this technique for breaking 811 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,120 Speaker 1: into a head and looking at a brain. This is 812 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: a quote from the Dayton Harold article in eighteen ninety six. 813 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 1: The skull was sawed through and the top removed. When 814 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: the outer skin like covering of the brain was punctured, 815 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: brain matter ran out like water. Is that from being 816 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: in the river? 817 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 2: Well, that's just she's putrefying. 818 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: You know. 819 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,360 Speaker 2: This is where you know, when the brain decomposes, it 820 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 2: kind of turns into sort of a mess. Uh So, 821 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 2: the removal of the top of the skull the calvarium, 822 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, by using the bone saw, and then this 823 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,280 Speaker 2: covering the door of moter, which is this very tough, 824 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,720 Speaker 2: fibrous protective covering of the brain. You know, that's it's 825 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,840 Speaker 2: almost like this really thick plastic y cover that protects 826 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,439 Speaker 2: the brain. And of course if the brain is gelatinous 827 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 2: at this point, you know, the brain, a brain that 828 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 2: hasn't decomposed has the consistency of jello almost you know, 829 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 2: it's not a real rigid tissue. But as you have 830 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,280 Speaker 2: the decomposition, then yes, you do get this putrid fluid. 831 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: And that's with all these organs. You know, as the 832 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 2: body decomposes, you have this liquid faction that occurs. And 833 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 2: so the further along the body is in the decompositional process, 834 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 2: the more the tissues have been broken down, the structured 835 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 2: tissues have been broken down, and they are they turn 836 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 2: fluid like. 837 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,319 Speaker 1: And we know that when a body deteriorates, there are 838 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,160 Speaker 1: simple manners of death that we're not going to be 839 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,799 Speaker 1: able to determine because the toxicology would not be available, 840 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: or strangulation marks would be gone. There I know a 841 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: myriad of things. So what happens next is very fortuitous 842 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: for doctor Weaver and for Chief Ferreal. So doctor Weaver 843 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,400 Speaker 1: is looking at her head, examining everything, and he notices 844 00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: two gunshot wounds near Bessie's right ear. 845 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 2: Oh good god, so. 846 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: We'll talk more about this case next week, because there's 847 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 1: a lot more to this case from eighteen ninety six. 848 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: All right, see you next week, Paul. This has been 849 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 1: an exactly right production. 850 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 2: For sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot 851 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,920 Speaker 2: com slash Berrybones Sources. 852 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 853 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 2: Research by Mare Nick and Kate Winklerdossa. 854 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Leona Scolacci. 855 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,120 Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfobel. 856 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,400 Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 857 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer. 858 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 859 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:18,720 Speaker 1: Buried Bones pod. 860 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,720 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 861 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 862 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now 863 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's 864 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: Cold Cases, is also available now