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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert Land.

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Speaker 1: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today's episode is the second

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Speaker 1: part in a series for Star Trek Week 2026, in

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Speaker 1: which we are taking a look at one of the

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Speaker 1: great villains of the show's history, the Borg. If you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard part one of the series, which aired on

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Speaker 1: Tuesday of this week, I think this is one where

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Speaker 1: we'd really recommend you go back and listen to that

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Speaker 1: one first. We're going to be building on our conversation

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Speaker 1: from that episode. We lay a lot of the groundwork there.

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Speaker 1: So Rob, I wanted to come back and give a

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Speaker 1: viewing update note. So as I mentioned in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: I'm not a person with deep, trek knowledge rob i've

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Speaker 1: certainly seen a lot less trek than you i think

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Speaker 1: definitely seen a lot less than many of the listeners

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Speaker 1: um but uh before we recorded part one i made

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Speaker 1: kind of a core borg lore checklist uh and so

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Speaker 1: for last time i was able to watch the borg's

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Speaker 1: debut episode on the next generation called q who that's

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Speaker 1: uh one from the second season we talked about it

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Speaker 1: last time but For a brief refresher, that is the

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Speaker 1: episode in which the omnipotent and abrasive, rather abrasive trickster

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Speaker 1: godlike being Q humbles the crew of the Enterprise by

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Speaker 1: throwing them into confrontation with this new enemy far more

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Speaker 1: dangerous than anything they'd ever faced before. And then for

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Speaker 1: last time, I also watched the movie Star Trek First Contact,

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Speaker 1: which we're going to be covering on Weird House Cinema

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Speaker 1: this week. The movie is basically one huge showdown between

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Speaker 1: the Next Generation crew and the Borg. And it introduces

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Speaker 1: a new character who we're going to talk about in

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Speaker 1: today's episode, the Borg Queen. But since last time, I

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Speaker 1: was also able to watch the big two-part storyline from

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Speaker 1: later in the Next Generation called The Best of Both Worlds.

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Speaker 1: This is the one where Captain Picard gets captured and

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Speaker 1: assimilated by the Borg. So they actually put the cyber

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Speaker 1: eye in him and everything. And the They have lots

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Speaker 1: of shots of him aiming his little laser pointer straight

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Speaker 1: into the camera and reading out the screen. Um, but this, uh,

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Speaker 1: has a, of course it's major in the plot, not

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Speaker 1: just because, uh, Picard himself is in peril and that

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Speaker 1: matters to the crew, but it's of major significance in

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Speaker 1: the story because this allows the Borg to learn everything

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Speaker 1: that Picard knows, including about, uh, his own ships, uh,

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Speaker 1: tactics and weaknesses and those of the Federation at large.

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Speaker 1: So I thought Best of Both Worlds was a really

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Speaker 1: great double series. In fact, I thought it was significantly

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Speaker 1: an upgrade on the Borg lore from QHU.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I rewatched Best of Both Worlds as well,

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Speaker 2: or at least the first part of it, which itself

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Speaker 2: is pretty long. I think it's like an hour and

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Speaker 2: a half in and of itself. And I was just, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I remembered loving it as a kid, but

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of things I loved as a kid

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Speaker 2: that Yeah, they maybe don't hold up as well, but

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Speaker 2: this really holds up and I thought moved along quite well.

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Speaker 2: Very well written and very well executed.

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Speaker 1: One thing I thought was really sharp in the writing

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Speaker 1: of the episode was, of course, the Borg are framed

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Speaker 1: as this emotionless, undifferentiated enemy. And the way the episode

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Speaker 1: contrasts that against the ego-driven battle for control taking place

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Speaker 1: within the Enterprise crew. Because in that episode in particular,

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Speaker 1: in these two episodes, there is a new character. There's

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Speaker 1: a new expert who's been brought in named Commander Shelby.

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Speaker 1: And she is presented as like somebody who has been

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Speaker 1: studying Borg tactics and thinking about ways to fight them

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Speaker 1: since the Enterprise's first contact with the Borg. And I

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Speaker 1: so so in the episode, she gets into a lot

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Speaker 1: of internal conflict and power struggle with Riker, the ship's

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Speaker 1: first officer played by Jonathan Frakes. And I like how

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Speaker 1: Commander Shelby is not portrayed as a villain or even

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Speaker 1: as wrong in her clashes with Riker. Like her knowledge

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Speaker 1: is crucial to the Enterprise's survival. But there's, I think,

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Speaker 1: a kind of detached but humanistic way of looking at

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Speaker 1: this conflict, which is that. Shelby and Riker's clash is

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Speaker 1: sort of an unavoidable kind of problem for civilizations controlled

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Speaker 1: by individual beings with their own emotions and desires and

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Speaker 1: strong personalities. And you get the sense that the Borg

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Speaker 1: are not dealing with these kinds of problems. Or if

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Speaker 1: they are dealing with them, they're handled in some like

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Speaker 1: back end layer that we never even get to see.

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Speaker 2: Some sort of subroutine or something that still works it

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Speaker 2: out lightning fast. And is only going to make certain

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Speaker 2: types of choices. This is also, I believe, alluded to

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Speaker 2: in these episodes where Worf is like, you know, that they,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're efficient, but they can never be, they

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Speaker 2: can never show courage for starters. You know, there are

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Speaker 2: certain things that they can't do because these are traits

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Speaker 2: that are bound up in human, you know, the best

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Speaker 2: of us and the worst of us are bound up

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Speaker 2: in these qualities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And so, of course, the show highlights the

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Speaker 1: ways that humans are at a disadvantage when dealing with

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Speaker 1: the Borg that we can't. adapt as quickly as them,

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Speaker 1: you know, that their collective consciousness just, just gives them

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Speaker 1: all of these sort of processing advantages over us. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that we also have advantages that are a little

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Speaker 1: counterintuitive that maybe we can be unpredictable in ways that

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Speaker 1: are hard for them to achieve. And I like the

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Speaker 1: idea that, that war phrases that there are some ways

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Speaker 1: in which the, the material reality of conflict is changed

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Speaker 1: by having different things to fight for. like the fact

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Speaker 1: that humans can fight for love and honor and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, and the Borg cannot, does actually change what

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Speaker 1: the humans do in battle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because again, the Borg have just diluted it all

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Speaker 2: down to one basic mission objective that is sometimes presented

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Speaker 2: in slightly different ways in these episodes and across the franchise,

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Speaker 2: but generally it is to assimilate and it is to conquer.

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Speaker 2: It is to turn everything into their vision of the

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Speaker 2: perfect techno-organic being.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So in the last episode, we did a basic

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Speaker 1: synopsis of some of the big Borg arcs. I was

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Speaker 1: able to say at that time, we've cut out a

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Speaker 1: few instances of me just having to say Borg over

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Speaker 1: and over. But the big Borg arcs from The Next Generation,

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Speaker 1: we covered some of those. Obviously, we can't do everything

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Speaker 1: because they show up a lot and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of Star Trek out there. But we talked about those

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Speaker 1: and then we talked about some other things like how

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Speaker 1: the idea of the Borg connects to the history of

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Speaker 1: thinking about cyborgs and cybernetics. And then also we talked

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Speaker 1: about biological parallels in the real world, how some of

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Speaker 1: the history of cell biology on Earth may well be

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Speaker 1: based in a form of assimilation. This is known as

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Speaker 1: the endosymbiotic theory. And we're back today to talk about more. Now, Rob,

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Speaker 1: I think you wanted to kick things off today with

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Speaker 1: some discussion of interpretations of what the Borg mean. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And there's no real right or wrong answer in any

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Speaker 2: of this. And it's one of the things that makes

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Speaker 2: them such a great villain because you can view them

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Speaker 2: in so different ways. You can compare them to various

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Speaker 2: things in our own world. You can see them as

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Speaker 2: a metaphor for different problems, different sorts of– anxieties that

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Speaker 2: we have, you know, certainly about technology. But of course,

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Speaker 2: broadly speaking, the Borg are still pretty much always presented

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Speaker 2: as the villain. They're a great threat that the Federation

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Speaker 2: is not prepared to deal with on the far side

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Speaker 2: of the galaxy. And they really do a great job

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Speaker 2: of laying the groundwork for this in the original series,

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Speaker 2: you know, rewatching some of these older episodes, these original episodes.

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Speaker 2: They really take their time with this. Granted, they had

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Speaker 2: huge episode rollouts, so there's a lot of space in there.

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Speaker 2: But they don't just get in there and like, all right,

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Speaker 2: let's tell the whole Borg story. They tell a bit

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Speaker 2: of it, and then they come back many episodes later,

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Speaker 2: and they keep it going. And they're able to maintain

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Speaker 2: the mystique and the sense of danger.

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Speaker 1: You do get the sense that it's actually being developed

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Speaker 1: over time as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's not like all planned out in advance and revealed

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Speaker 1: in drip drop form, but like they're still working it

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Speaker 1: out as they go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And I've read things about that too, where

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Speaker 2: they're like, you know, how do we write more of

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Speaker 2: this when they're basically invincible? How do we develop more

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Speaker 2: stories while still maintaining that aura? And, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: presented so well, like I think it's, it's, it's obvious

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Speaker 2: why folks latched onto this so much. I, and I

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Speaker 2: think also on an aesthetic level, they did a great

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Speaker 2: job of presenting the Borg as these like kind of,

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Speaker 2: they're dark and painful and unfeeling at the same time.

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Speaker 2: They're like Cenobite zombies by way of technology. And they

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Speaker 2: tie into a lot of other popular, um, you know,

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Speaker 2: sci-fi of the day. They're, they're, they're a great techno boogeyman.

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Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah. Creepy looking. It even looks, even though, um,

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Speaker 1: as I want to talk about in this episode, the

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Speaker 1: basic idea seems to be that the Borg are satisfied

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Speaker 1: being Borg. They're not asking not to be Borg, but

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Speaker 1: their very physical existence looks unpleasant. It looks like to

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Speaker 1: the extent that they can feel pain, their flesh must

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Speaker 1: be in pain. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that it just doesn't matter to them anymore. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then, of course, when you get past just the

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Speaker 2: way they look, and what is just, you know, the

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Speaker 2: very plot-based aspects of the faction. Like, the ideas wrapped

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Speaker 2: up are really interesting, and it really becomes fascinating when

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Speaker 2: you start contrasting them with the Federation, because, of course,

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Speaker 2: if the Federation values individualism, freedom, multiculturalism, the Borg, on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, dissolve the individual. Any concept of personal

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Speaker 2: freedom and anything outside of the limited monoculture of the Borg.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I mean, you can see them as a

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Speaker 1: dark parody of some of the good things about the

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Speaker 1: federation i mean a lot of the vision of star

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Speaker 1: trek is that it's a not fully utopian it's not

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Speaker 1: a perfect world but it's a better world a lot

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Speaker 1: of the more noxious aspects of individualism seem to be

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Speaker 1: kind of tamped down in this world so you get

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Speaker 1: a you know, a society where it's not like everybody

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Speaker 1: is perfect, but there is just a lot less me, me,

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Speaker 1: me manifesting in people's individual behavior. So, you know, individual

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Speaker 1: expression is allowed and seems to flourish in a way,

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Speaker 1: but there is less ego-driven, you know, greedy, self-aggrandizing behavior

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Speaker 1: than you get in our world. And you could attribute

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Speaker 1: some of that to, again, material circumstances of the Star

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Speaker 1: Trek universe, like Maybe greed just makes less sense in

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Speaker 1: an economy where you don't really have to compete for

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Speaker 1: resources that much, except to whatever extent you want to

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Speaker 1: for status or something. But you got replicators, you can

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Speaker 1: make whatever. And so the Star Trek world could be

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Speaker 1: used as a symbol of collective flourishing. It's people who

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Speaker 1: do right by others. And people who like to make

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Speaker 1: sacrifices for the greater good of humankind or even not

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Speaker 1: just humankind of, you know, sentient life generally. And that's

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Speaker 1: kind of good. But then you could take that to

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Speaker 1: the extreme with the Borg. And you could say that

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Speaker 1: we don't even have individualism at all, not even the

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Speaker 1: forms of it that seem good to you. We, you know,

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Speaker 1: everything is for the group. Everything is for the collective.

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Speaker 1: We only exist sort of as this one mass of beings.

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Speaker 1: There are there are not really individual Borg.

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Speaker 2: That's right. All is one. Yeah. That's a collective mindset.

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Speaker 1: And the differences get erased also. The assimilation process does

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Speaker 1: not allow diversity to flourish within the culture at large.

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Speaker 1: There sort of is no culture. Everything just gets steamrolled.

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Speaker 1: It all becomes one thing. Yeah, everything.

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Speaker 2: It's about efficiency. And that seems to be the bottom

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Speaker 2: line of it all. And at the same time, you

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Speaker 2: might say, well, what if the Borg was a sacrifice

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Speaker 2: for some sort of greater good, right? Because In the

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Speaker 2: best of both worlds, the Borg indicate in one of

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Speaker 2: the conversations that the Enterprise crew have with the Borg collective,

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Speaker 2: which at this point is just, I love how when

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Speaker 2: they're talking to the Borg, they just cut to like

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Speaker 2: a massive hanger in the Borg cube. And then there's

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Speaker 2: the voice of the computer and it's the voice of

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Speaker 2: the Borg. And, you know, they indicate that they only

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Speaker 2: wish to elevate the quality of life for all organisms.

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Speaker 2: So from their point of view, like their cause is,

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Speaker 2: And any sacrifices that they have made or that they

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Speaker 2: ask other civilizations to make, it is with this great

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Speaker 2: work in mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be taken as a dubious proposition, at least from the

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Speaker 1: assimilated organism's point of view. But it's a very fair

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Speaker 1: question to ask from the assimilated organism's point of view

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Speaker 1: at what point. This actually raised for me a question

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Speaker 1: about normative ethics that I wanted to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you think this is a good

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Speaker 1: place or if we should come back to this later.

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Speaker 2: No, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, so I was just thinking how the Borg

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Speaker 1: assimilation idea complicates the application of desire-based utilitarianism or preference utilitarianism.

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Speaker 1: So preference utilitarianism is is an ethical framework that says

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Speaker 1: the good, the right thing to do in any given

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Speaker 1: situation is that which provides the greatest overall satisfaction of

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Speaker 1: the desires or preferences of the people affected. So you're

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Speaker 1: trying to satisfy to the greatest extent, the greatest number

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Speaker 1: of people's desires, what they want. And I would argue

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Speaker 1: whether or not you think this is the true meaning

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Speaker 1: of right and wrong, It just is, in fact, the

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Speaker 1: implicit basis on which we make a lot of ethical

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Speaker 1: decisions in life. We're operating very often on an implicit

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Speaker 1: preference utilitarianism. What gets people what they want? But the

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Speaker 1: Borg proposition illustrates a complication for preference utilitarianism, because most

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Speaker 1: humans before assimilation may think, I do not want to

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Speaker 1: be Borg. This doesn't sound like a good deal for me.

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Speaker 1: I don't want that at all. So therefore, it is

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Speaker 1: good to protect them from the Borg and to honor

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Speaker 1: their preferences by fighting back against assimilation. And yet after assimilation,

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Speaker 1: those same human brains, albeit in an altered form, would

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Speaker 1: now say, well, they wouldn't say I, they would say,

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Speaker 1: we are glad we are Borg. We would not want

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Speaker 1: to be any other way.

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Speaker 2: Borg is good.

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Speaker 1: I'm very happy to be Borg. And so I think

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Speaker 1: this is an example of the broader philosophical problem of

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Speaker 1: how to think about the importance of desires. Because even

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Speaker 1: outside of Borg assimilation, in lots of cases in regular life,

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Speaker 1: like experience, time, or just situational factors can change what

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Speaker 1: we want. They change our desires, even our strongest desires.

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Speaker 1: So the question is, whose preference should be prioritized, the

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Speaker 1: you now or the you after some kind of change

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Speaker 1: or temporal event? So you could take the preference of

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Speaker 1: Jean-Luc Picard now, who does not want to be Borg,

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Speaker 1: or you could take the preference of the Borg drone

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Speaker 1: formerly known as Jean-Luc, who loves being Borg and wouldn't

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Speaker 1: change anything. And I think this is genuinely somewhat thorny.

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Speaker 1: So I was trying to think about like, what are

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Speaker 1: the rules you could have that would get around this

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Speaker 1: kind of conflict? And you might think that there could

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Speaker 1: be like a time-based solution to this. Like, well, we

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Speaker 1: should go with whatever the person's preferences are right now

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Speaker 1: in the present. So in the moment you're making the decision,

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Speaker 1: what do people want? But I think that doesn't really

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Speaker 1: work because you can come up with all kinds of

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Speaker 1: thought experiments where this yields absurd outcomes, some of them

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Speaker 1: in the Star Trek episodes. like in the best of

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Speaker 1: both worlds, Picard gets assimilated. He gets turned into a Borg,

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Speaker 1: Locutus of Borg. Uh, and not very cute despite the name,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, Locutus of Borg. And in the climax of

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Speaker 1: the episode, the crew of the enterprise, they rescue him.

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Speaker 1: They sort of deprogram him. They remove the Borg implants

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Speaker 1: and they turn him back into Picard. But while he

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Speaker 1: was Locutus, he wanted to be Locutus. So if we were,

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Speaker 1: if the crew were to prioritize the, person's present desires, ethically,

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Speaker 1: the crew should have left him as Borg, which seems

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Speaker 1: obviously wrong. And there can be real world examples of this.

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Speaker 1: A common one that gets used in these thought experiments

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Speaker 1: is like intervening with someone who is addicted to drugs.

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Speaker 1: Like in the present, they may well not want this intervention,

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Speaker 1: but their loved ones know with fairly high confidence that

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Speaker 1: the person is going to be able to better achieve

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Speaker 1: their future desires if they can get out of addiction.

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Speaker 1: But the intervention is directly against their desires right now.

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Speaker 1: So that presents a problem for the time-based interpretation. And

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Speaker 1: it leads to the conclusion that maybe there are some

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Speaker 1: types of desires that should be given more priority than others.

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Speaker 1: I think we already, again, implicitly make this kind of judgment.

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Speaker 1: We think some types of desires are worth more than others.

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Speaker 1: A common example is sadism. A sadist may have a

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Speaker 1: strong desire to walk around on the sidewalk whipping people

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Speaker 1: or hitting them with a bat or something. But most

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Speaker 1: people just implicitly assume that satisfying a potential victim's desire

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Speaker 1: not to be hurt is more important. That should get

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Speaker 1: more preference than satisfying the sadist's desire to hurt somebody.

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Speaker 1: But it does become genuinely difficult if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: come up with a full codification of the hierarchy of

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Speaker 1: desires like that. How do we judge which desires are

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Speaker 1: more worthy than others? So I was trying to think

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Speaker 1: about it and why do the desires of somebody not

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Speaker 1: to be assimilated and have their desires changed override the

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Speaker 1: later desires of wanting to stay Borg? I think one

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Speaker 1: ethical argument you could make against Borg assimilation is still

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Speaker 1: based in preference utilitarianism, assuming somebody likes being bored once

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Speaker 1: they are bored, is that one of the most important

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Speaker 1: desires is for freedom of thought and individual autonomy. And

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Speaker 1: that the, the reason that those desires supersede many others

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Speaker 1: is that they leave open the possibility of changing course

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Speaker 1: later to better meet our desires in the future. Whereas

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Speaker 1: if you're assimilated into a satisfied but unfree condition, that

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Speaker 1: just collapses all those possibilities. It closes many doors to

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Speaker 1: other possible futures. So Borg-Picard is denied the freedom to

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Speaker 1: change his mind later on. And that does actually seem

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Speaker 1: like a less preferable state of desire satisfaction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like Picard... may one day take up windsurfing, but

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Speaker 2: Locutus definitely is not taking up windsurfing.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah. Picard may one day, what happens in the

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Speaker 1: inner light? I mean, that's not happening to Locutus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But I thought this was really interesting and I like how, uh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe there are episodes that directly get

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Speaker 1: into this kind of question about like, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: does it matter if somebody wants, you know, claims they

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Speaker 1: want to be Borg or not after they are Borg. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it, I think it at least implicitly raises that.

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Speaker 1: And the Borg does that with a lot of issues,

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Speaker 1: kind of raises them without actually talking about them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Which again is one of the great things

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Speaker 2: about it is that, uh, even in those early episodes,

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Speaker 2: it raises all of these questions. And some of those

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Speaker 2: are questions that Star Trek and, you know, the 37

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Speaker 2: years of Borg history has gotten around to analyzing and

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Speaker 2: taking on in different ways and on the show and

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Speaker 2: then also in extended media. We already mentioned how eventually

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Speaker 2: in Picard, they apparently do introduce the idea of a

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Speaker 2: voluntary Borg collective, albeit in an alternate timeline. But still,

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Speaker 2: you know, they get around to like saying, well, what

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Speaker 2: if people wanted to be Borg? There might be very

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Speaker 2: good reasons for some people to want to live like this,

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Speaker 2: and they should have the freedom to do that without

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Speaker 2: conquering the galaxy, obviously.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah. Nice Borg. Benign Borg.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. There, of course, has also been plenty of time

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Speaker 2: over the past 37 years for fans, academics, and fan academics,

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Speaker 2: of course, which maybe is a very large portion of

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about here, to endlessly discuss how we're

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Speaker 2: really supposed to interpret the Borg as a threat. Like,

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Speaker 2: what do they represent? Are they communism? Are they rapid consumerism?

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Speaker 2: Is it a commentary on our relationship with technology? Or

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Speaker 2: is it just, is it more about how we conduct

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Speaker 2: ourselves in other ways? But again, this is one of

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Speaker 2: the great things about the Borg. You can come at

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Speaker 2: it with different mindsets. If you have some sort of

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Speaker 2: like a pet enemy that you want to prop up

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Speaker 2: as being like the Borg, you can absolutely do it.

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Speaker 2: I think in many cases, you're going to, really limit

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Speaker 2: what the story has to tell you and teach you

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Speaker 2: and make you think about in those cases. But it's

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Speaker 2: there if you want to do it.

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Speaker 1: It's always tempting to see your main antagonist or opposition

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Speaker 1: as monolithic and unthinking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I think to their credit, like that doesn't seem

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Speaker 2: to be what the Borg are usually used as. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's more like it'd be like using the Borg from

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Speaker 2: a storytelling standpoint is just like a hammer to drive

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Speaker 2: them a point. And for the most part, the reason

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Speaker 2: we love Star Trek is that they generally don't want

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Speaker 2: to do that. They generally want to engage in some

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Speaker 2: sort of a thoughtful exploration of a topic.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the best ideas in Star Trek

398
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Speaker 1: are often a symbol rather than a sign. They point

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Speaker 1: to a lot of things. They raise a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions instead of just being like a one-for-one allegory. You know,

401
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Speaker 1: this is what it represents in the world. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But we mentioned already, though, there is this very... fascinating

403
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Speaker 2: idea of the Borg as being in many ways like

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Speaker 2: the Federation. And so if you look around just a

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Speaker 2: little bit, you'll start finding various treatments of this interpretation

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Speaker 2: that I think are really worth considering, that the Borg

407
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Speaker 2: serve as a dark reflection of the Federation's colonialism or

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Speaker 2: sort of neocolonialism, depending on how you analyze it. Various

409
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Speaker 2: authors have tackled this, but the source I was looking

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Speaker 2: at was 2006's Beyond the Final Frontier, Star Trek, the Borg,

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Speaker 2: and the Postcolonial by a pair of archaeologists and academics,

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Speaker 2: Lynette Russell and Nathan Wolski. You can find this online.

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Speaker 2: It's readily available. They get into it. Like all these papers,

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Speaker 2: you've got to talk about the different episodes like we've

415
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Speaker 2: been doing. They bring up the iBorg episode. This is

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Speaker 2: the one where we have the Borg crash survivor, Hugh,

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Speaker 2: third of five. And there's one little bit of dialogue

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Speaker 2: that they highlight here between Geordi LaForge and the Borg

419
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Speaker 2: in question. So this is a rare Borg individual suddenly

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Speaker 2: individualized because he is cut off from the collective. And

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Speaker 2: LaForge says, part of what we do, we being the Federation,

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Speaker 2: part of what we do is learn more about other species.

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Speaker 2: And third of five, Hughes says, we assimilate species. Then

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Speaker 2: we know everything about them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No mysteries left. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in the paper, Russell and Wolski write, quote, the

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Speaker 2: boundary between the Borg and the Federation, which at first

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Speaker 2: seemed to be distinct and easily recognized, appears to melt away.

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Speaker 2: The Borg, who at first glance appeared to be completely

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Speaker 2: other to the enterprise, are now revealed as being a

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Speaker 2: mirror image of the enterprise. The colonialist mission of the

432
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,659
Speaker 2: Federation is turned back upon it. The colonial gaze of

433
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,830
Speaker 2: the Federation is returned and intensified.

434
00:24:49,330 --> 00:24:49,470
Speaker 1: Hmm.

435
00:24:50,420 --> 00:24:53,980
Speaker 2: And this idea is a lot to unwrap here. It

436
00:24:54,020 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: gets explored in the Voyager series as well. But it

437
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,740
Speaker 2: all boils down to this. So the Federation has taken

438
00:25:00,770 --> 00:25:04,210
Speaker 2: it upon itself to explore what strange new worlds, of course,

439
00:25:04,670 --> 00:25:08,609
Speaker 2: to make appropriate contact with new civilizations and ultimately bring

440
00:25:08,670 --> 00:25:11,330
Speaker 2: them into the fold of the Federation of Planets, which

441
00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:16,050
Speaker 2: is generally presented as a democratic union of sovereign systems

442
00:25:16,109 --> 00:25:21,459
Speaker 2: or planets that celebrate liberal values in a post-scarcity society

443
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,500
Speaker 2: while also providing like a collective security. Like if you're

444
00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: a member of the Federation and your planet is attacked by,

445
00:25:28,780 --> 00:25:31,220
Speaker 2: I don't know, the Romulans, then you can lean on

446
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:32,659
Speaker 2: the protection of the Federation.

447
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 1: And Rob, correct me if you disagree, but it seems

448
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,100
Speaker 1: to me that the broad arc of storytelling across all

449
00:25:39,140 --> 00:25:42,619
Speaker 1: of Star Trek media is that the Federation is basically good.

450
00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:46,629
Speaker 1: Like it may occasionally do bad things, but it it

451
00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:50,670
Speaker 1: seems to be a fundamentally good force that is genuinely

452
00:25:50,730 --> 00:25:53,750
Speaker 1: kind of winning the argument and even turning many former

453
00:25:53,869 --> 00:25:57,270
Speaker 1: enemies into allies. Like the Klingons originally enemies of the

454
00:25:57,310 --> 00:26:01,350
Speaker 1: Federation eventually become part of the Federation. Uh, I believe

455
00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:04,590
Speaker 1: even later, don't the Romulans become part of the Federation.

456
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:07,750
Speaker 2: So there's like a, maybe in.

457
00:26:07,710 --> 00:26:11,700
Speaker 1: The long view, but that there's, uh, that, that suggests

458
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,619
Speaker 1: that ultimately like the Federation is good and has a

459
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 1: lot of good to offer when even the enemies want

460
00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 1: to become part of it in the long run. Yeah.

461
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:21,690
Speaker 2: I mean, that's, that's the track I grew up loving.

462
00:26:21,730 --> 00:26:23,210
Speaker 2: I think that's the track. Most of a lot of

463
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:24,830
Speaker 2: people grew up loving, you know, it gives you this

464
00:26:25,050 --> 00:26:27,530
Speaker 2: optimistic vision of the future. Like this is something we

465
00:26:28,190 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: are hopefully working towards and maybe we'll one day get to,

466
00:26:31,190 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 2: you know, that we are united and celebrating these, these

467
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: values that, that, that most of us, or at least

468
00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:40,729
Speaker 2: many of us agree with. Um, Now, granted, I think

469
00:26:40,770 --> 00:26:43,780
Speaker 2: in later storytelling, you get into other ideas, you explore other,

470
00:26:44,260 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: you know, aspects of it because, you know, as always,

471
00:26:47,420 --> 00:26:48,980
Speaker 2: you know, what kind of stories can you tell in

472
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: this universe and what can you say about our own world?

473
00:26:51,540 --> 00:26:54,700
Speaker 2: You know, questioning of our own structures of government and,

474
00:26:55,100 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 2: you know, the dark secrets and the aggressions and the

475
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,850
Speaker 2: crimes that are bound up in it. You know, these

476
00:27:02,010 --> 00:27:04,710
Speaker 2: end up being explored in Star Trek as well.

477
00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:09,389
Speaker 1: As circumstances in the real world change, it can become

478
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,860
Speaker 1: increasingly easy or increasingly difficult to tell a story where

479
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,939
Speaker 1: the government is good.

480
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,580
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's absolutely true. And so you see

481
00:27:17,619 --> 00:27:20,330
Speaker 2: that reflected in Trek. I mean, again, it's existed across

482
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:26,230
Speaker 2: decades and the social and political reality has changed and

483
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:39,379
Speaker 2: shifted throughout that time period. But yeah, another thing about

484
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,030
Speaker 2: the Federation is that it is, it does celebrate multiculturalism.

485
00:27:43,170 --> 00:27:46,250
Speaker 2: You know, we see that with the Star Trek Enterprise crew,

486
00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:50,070
Speaker 2: you know, the original crew, but it's certainly by next generation,

487
00:27:50,109 --> 00:27:55,199
Speaker 2: you have different real life races presented there. You have

488
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,020
Speaker 2: different genders presented there and you have different alien species

489
00:27:58,660 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: presented there. And it's all kind of absorbed into the Federation,

490
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,490
Speaker 2: but also allowed to remain whole. And meanwhile, the Borg,

491
00:28:08,850 --> 00:28:11,970
Speaker 2: they're a dark reflection of this. They expand, they spread

492
00:28:12,030 --> 00:28:16,629
Speaker 2: their philosophy, they assimilate civilizations, and they increase their own

493
00:28:16,670 --> 00:28:20,649
Speaker 2: technological superiority. But they also seem open to anybody. And

494
00:28:20,690 --> 00:28:24,270
Speaker 2: we see that certainly by first contact. You see, I

495
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:28,710
Speaker 2: think you see Klingons or Romulans, maybe it's just Klingons.

496
00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:31,070
Speaker 2: You see some Klingons in there in the Borg. You

497
00:28:31,090 --> 00:28:34,140
Speaker 2: also see some, maybe they're Bajorans. You see some head

498
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,899
Speaker 2: wrinkles is what I'm saying. So it's related that really,

499
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: if you are some sort of a humanoid alien, which

500
00:28:40,380 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 2: is most of the aliens in the Star Trek universe,

501
00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:46,090
Speaker 2: the Borg, they're open for business. They are ready to

502
00:28:46,130 --> 00:28:46,730
Speaker 2: invite you in.

503
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:52,430
Speaker 1: I believe in Star Trek, sometimes the Federation encounters xenophobic species,

504
00:28:52,590 --> 00:28:56,229
Speaker 1: and the Borg are not xenophobic, but they're xenophilic in

505
00:28:56,270 --> 00:28:59,790
Speaker 1: the bad way. Like, they want the wrong kind of

506
00:29:00,430 --> 00:29:04,110
Speaker 1: close contact, meaning they want to absorb you and erase

507
00:29:04,150 --> 00:29:07,430
Speaker 1: your distinctiveness and just, like, make you part of the blob.

508
00:29:07,770 --> 00:29:09,910
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I think there's a later storyline that I

509
00:29:09,930 --> 00:29:12,060
Speaker 2: don't know much about. I read briefly about it. It's

510
00:29:12,150 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: a Captain Janeway storyline. where there's some sort of a

511
00:29:16,090 --> 00:29:19,550
Speaker 2: purely organic enemy that is an enemy of the Federation,

512
00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:22,310
Speaker 2: but also an enemy of the Borg, in part because

513
00:29:22,370 --> 00:29:25,970
Speaker 2: the Borg don't know how to assimilate them. But they

514
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:29,330
Speaker 2: want to. They want to assimilate them. So they want

515
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:31,650
Speaker 2: the doors to be open, and that ends up being

516
00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:35,150
Speaker 2: a major plot point. When you think of sort of

517
00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:38,430
Speaker 2: Star Trek noir, for me, I think a lot about

518
00:29:38,970 --> 00:29:41,900
Speaker 2: Deep Space Nine, which does have some noir sort of

519
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: stylings to it, you know. And there's one particular episode,

520
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,170
Speaker 2: I believe this one's called For the Cause. I have

521
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:52,910
Speaker 2: to admit, I do not distinctly remember watching this episode.

522
00:29:53,070 --> 00:29:55,690
Speaker 2: I might have watched it or forgotten it, or it

523
00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:57,250
Speaker 2: could have been one that I didn't get to see.

524
00:29:58,150 --> 00:30:01,650
Speaker 2: But it contains a a biting reference to the Borg

525
00:30:02,990 --> 00:30:07,890
Speaker 2: from a character who is criticizing the Federation. So this

526
00:30:07,910 --> 00:30:12,070
Speaker 2: is a character by the name of Michael Eddington, and

527
00:30:12,130 --> 00:30:17,450
Speaker 2: he is a former Starfleet officer turned Maquis leader. This

528
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:22,660
Speaker 2: is like a Bajoran resistance group, if memory serves. I'm

529
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,260
Speaker 2: a little foggy on what they were doing. But he's

530
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: played by Ken Marshall, the lead from Krull.

531
00:30:29,220 --> 00:30:29,340
Speaker 1: Yeah.

532
00:30:30,090 --> 00:30:32,830
Speaker 2: From Krull. Oh, yeah. But anyway, he's talking to Sisko, who,

533
00:30:32,850 --> 00:30:36,290
Speaker 2: of course, is the leader of the Deep Space Nine station,

534
00:30:36,490 --> 00:30:40,180
Speaker 2: the head honcho, our main character, essentially. And this is

535
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: what he has to say. I'm not going to read

536
00:30:41,900 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: the whole quote, but I'm going to read the part

537
00:30:43,460 --> 00:30:45,820
Speaker 2: that gets to the point here. He's criticizing Sisko and

538
00:30:45,860 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: criticizing the Federation. And, you know, he's saying, you know,

539
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:52,420
Speaker 2: you're giving us a hard time. Why? Quote, because we've

540
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:55,510
Speaker 2: left the Federation. And that's the one thing you can't accept.

541
00:30:55,770 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: Nobody leaves Paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell,

542
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:03,460
Speaker 2: you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending

543
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: them replicators because one day they can take their rightful

544
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,820
Speaker 2: place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways,

545
00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:11,540
Speaker 2: you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell

546
00:31:11,580 --> 00:31:15,210
Speaker 2: you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You

547
00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:17,460
Speaker 2: assimilate people, and they don't even know it.

548
00:31:18,930 --> 00:31:21,150
Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Though I would want to know what

549
00:31:21,190 --> 00:31:25,790
Speaker 1: this character has in mind as the actual facts of assimilation. Like,

550
00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:31,290
Speaker 1: is he saying that Starfleet actually... erases the individual cultures

551
00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:35,590
Speaker 1: of these planets like the Borg does? Or is it

552
00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:40,050
Speaker 1: something about giving up autonomous control? Is that what they value?

553
00:31:40,150 --> 00:31:42,690
Speaker 1: And what is it you think that is like the

554
00:31:42,750 --> 00:31:45,550
Speaker 1: valuable thing being lost in this character's perspective?

555
00:31:45,810 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: Well, without having had time to go back and actually

556
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: watch this episode and get into like sort of the

557
00:31:50,060 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: meat of this rivalry between these two characters, which I

558
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,410
Speaker 2: think in classic Star Trek form is fascinating. maybe is

559
00:31:57,470 --> 00:32:00,270
Speaker 2: less of a good guy villain and more of just

560
00:32:00,370 --> 00:32:04,170
Speaker 2: these conflicting viewpoints. You know, I think I think it's

561
00:32:04,270 --> 00:32:07,030
Speaker 2: coming from a place, you know, like we talked about earlier, where,

562
00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:10,170
Speaker 2: you know, at times it's very difficult to portray even

563
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:12,890
Speaker 2: a fictional government as being like 100 percent the good

564
00:32:12,950 --> 00:32:16,590
Speaker 2: guy and then acknowledging like, you know, the the bad

565
00:32:16,670 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 2: things that governments do and have done. You know, certainly

566
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: you can think to, you know, moments in our own

567
00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:27,210
Speaker 2: lives where we've seen seen it brought to light or

568
00:32:28,090 --> 00:32:31,820
Speaker 2: more brought to light some of the insidious things, the

569
00:32:31,860 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: reckless or the destructive things that various countries have done,

570
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,060
Speaker 2: various seats of power have orchestrated, where on one level

571
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,140
Speaker 2: they're holding themselves up as being like a centerpiece of democracy,

572
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:50,300
Speaker 2: but then what very undemocratic things have they also done,

573
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:53,580
Speaker 2: either in their past or in the very recent past

574
00:32:53,660 --> 00:32:54,620
Speaker 2: or even in the present?

575
00:32:55,850 --> 00:33:00,110
Speaker 1: A lot of real life historical brutal colonialism was, you know,

576
00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:03,209
Speaker 1: done while preaching that we're doing a good thing. This

577
00:33:03,250 --> 00:33:05,890
Speaker 1: is a noble, morally good thing. A lot of it

578
00:33:05,950 --> 00:33:09,210
Speaker 1: under the guise of, say, bringing the gospel of Christ

579
00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:12,170
Speaker 1: to people or something like that, you know, or, you know,

580
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:17,270
Speaker 1: sharing our objectively superior culture and way of life. And

581
00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:19,910
Speaker 1: so you can always tell a story about how you're

582
00:33:19,950 --> 00:33:23,700
Speaker 1: doing the right thing while you're beating people down. Uh, I,

583
00:33:23,820 --> 00:33:26,140
Speaker 1: I guess the, the difference would seem to be that, uh,

584
00:33:26,220 --> 00:33:27,820
Speaker 1: and again, I, you know, I haven't seen all of

585
00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:30,420
Speaker 1: Star Trek, so I think there, I'm sure there are

586
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:33,380
Speaker 1: plenty of counter examples, but broadly it seemed to me

587
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:39,410
Speaker 1: like the Federation is portrayed as in fact, mostly being benign,

588
00:33:39,530 --> 00:33:40,230
Speaker 1: but yeah.

589
00:33:40,290 --> 00:33:40,470
Speaker 2: Yeah.

590
00:33:40,550 --> 00:33:40,670
Speaker 1: Yeah.

591
00:33:40,730 --> 00:33:42,010
Speaker 2: And I, and I think that is the bottom line.

592
00:33:42,050 --> 00:33:43,190
Speaker 2: I don't want to, I don't want to go too,

593
00:33:43,490 --> 00:33:45,950
Speaker 2: too far down the, what if the Borg are the

594
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 2: good guys sort of thing? Cause they're not, they're absolutely

595
00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: not the good guys.

596
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:49,380
Speaker 1: Yeah.

597
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,350
Speaker 2: You know I think if you if you start arguing

598
00:33:52,390 --> 00:33:54,530
Speaker 2: that you're getting into the whole territory of like what

599
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:56,570
Speaker 2: if Jar Jar was a Sith Lord all along and

600
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:59,150
Speaker 2: what is you know or Thanos was right that sort

601
00:33:59,190 --> 00:34:01,670
Speaker 2: of thing you know the Borg are the villains but

602
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:04,230
Speaker 2: The questions of why are they the villains and why

603
00:34:04,250 --> 00:34:06,050
Speaker 2: it was the Federation? Why are they the good guys

604
00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:08,970
Speaker 2: that that's where you get into these interesting discussions and

605
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: I think the great thing about Trek is that they

606
00:34:12,060 --> 00:34:17,170
Speaker 2: they always leave room to re-examine these these factions and And,

607
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:19,509
Speaker 2: you know, always looking, leaving room for a deeper look

608
00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:22,430
Speaker 2: at conflict and the hope of coexistence between cultures.

609
00:34:23,010 --> 00:34:26,009
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I can't help but find that, that positive

610
00:34:26,110 --> 00:34:31,310
Speaker 1: view of interplanetary multiculturalism, you know, like rousingly good. Like

611
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:33,570
Speaker 1: it feels nice to think about this, this sort of

612
00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:38,530
Speaker 1: great mixing without erasing of peoples, like all, all members

613
00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:41,410
Speaker 1: getting to retain their cultural distinctiveness, but, uh, you know,

614
00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: adding to this great mixture. Yeah.

615
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: But then at the same time, certainly in recent Star

616
00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:49,859
Speaker 2: Trek media, asking questions like, well, how about that whole

617
00:34:49,910 --> 00:34:53,890
Speaker 2: bit where we were really against genetically modified people and

618
00:34:53,910 --> 00:34:56,870
Speaker 2: there was a whole eugenics war? How do we feel

619
00:34:56,910 --> 00:34:58,610
Speaker 2: about that? Or how do we feel about the treatment

620
00:34:58,690 --> 00:35:02,989
Speaker 2: of artificial individuals, androids like data? And so, you know,

621
00:35:03,010 --> 00:35:05,509
Speaker 2: there's always room to explore that in a world like this.

622
00:35:06,110 --> 00:35:07,910
Speaker 2: All right. Shall we talk a bit about the Borg

623
00:35:07,989 --> 00:35:08,509
Speaker 2: Queen then?

624
00:35:08,850 --> 00:35:09,810
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay.

625
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:13,190
Speaker 2: So as we previously mentioned, we're going to be discussing

626
00:35:13,210 --> 00:35:17,530
Speaker 2: 1996's Star Trek First Contact on Weird House Cinema this Friday.

627
00:35:17,590 --> 00:35:19,430
Speaker 2: So we're going to go all in on the movie there.

628
00:35:20,330 --> 00:35:23,419
Speaker 2: But I wanted for us to spend some time here

629
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: with that film's chief antagonist and ultimately a game-changing development

630
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: in the way that the Borg are presented on screen.

631
00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 2: That is the Borg Queen played by the talented Alice Krieger.

632
00:35:34,219 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: So the big reveal, of course, is that the Borg, again,

633
00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: we've known them as being completely collective, completely decentralized. suddenly

634
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:43,739
Speaker 2: we realize, oh, they have a queen. And it's not

635
00:35:43,780 --> 00:35:46,020
Speaker 2: just a new development. It's not, like, I used to

636
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,710
Speaker 2: sort of wrongfully interpret it as being like, okay, after

637
00:35:49,730 --> 00:35:52,989
Speaker 2: that whole business with Hugh and the injection of individualism

638
00:35:53,050 --> 00:35:56,950
Speaker 2: back into the Borg, maybe they developed a queen then. But, no,

639
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:00,490
Speaker 2: in the film, they distinctly reveal that the Borg queen

640
00:36:00,550 --> 00:36:04,050
Speaker 2: was there during the course of events that we see

641
00:36:04,170 --> 00:36:07,290
Speaker 2: in The Best of Both Worlds. Like, she's on the

642
00:36:07,350 --> 00:36:11,910
Speaker 2: ship with Picard's Locutus, But we just don't see her.

643
00:36:11,950 --> 00:36:13,250
Speaker 2: They just completely retcon it.

644
00:36:14,290 --> 00:36:14,489
Speaker 1: Yeah.

645
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:18,290
Speaker 2: But here she is presented as, and honestly, I don't

646
00:36:18,330 --> 00:36:21,370
Speaker 2: remember if they, it's not like they say, hey, Borg Queen,

647
00:36:21,930 --> 00:36:23,890
Speaker 2: what are we doing? Like, they don't necessarily refer to

648
00:36:23,930 --> 00:36:27,190
Speaker 2: her as Borg Queen, do they? But in First Contact,

649
00:36:27,870 --> 00:36:31,690
Speaker 2: she is there, very much presented like some sort of

650
00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:36,609
Speaker 2: a regal authority over her fellow Borg. When Data asks

651
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,760
Speaker 2: her about the power structure of the Borg, though, she's

652
00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:41,270
Speaker 2: She's very cagey. We may get into the direct quotes

653
00:36:41,330 --> 00:36:45,469
Speaker 2: here when we talk about the film in depth. But yeah,

654
00:36:45,489 --> 00:36:47,310
Speaker 2: he's like saying, are you in charge? Or, you know,

655
00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: he's asking, are you in charge? Are you calling the shots? And,

656
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:52,020
Speaker 2: you know, she responds with, you know, sort of villain

657
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,620
Speaker 2: monologue stuff like, I'm the beginning and the end.

658
00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: I bring order to chaos.

659
00:36:56,739 --> 00:37:00,020
Speaker 2: I bring order to chaos. And Data's like, that's, you know,

660
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,380
Speaker 2: that's interesting, but that also does not answer my question.

661
00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:05,469
Speaker 2: And the question's not answered because I think the writers,

662
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:08,830
Speaker 2: the writers were aware that they were They were messing

663
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:10,870
Speaker 2: with the cocktail a little bit here. They were messing

664
00:37:10,969 --> 00:37:15,390
Speaker 2: with the magic of the Borg. And to understand a

665
00:37:15,450 --> 00:37:18,130
Speaker 2: big part of it was, you know, it's the storytelling convention.

666
00:37:19,110 --> 00:37:21,739
Speaker 2: On one level, you know, it pays to have a

667
00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 2: cool villain, a cool centralized villain in a piece, especially

668
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,420
Speaker 2: when it's not just an episode of Next Generation. It

669
00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 2: is a feature film released to theaters and hopefully one

670
00:37:30,739 --> 00:37:33,509
Speaker 2: that's going to spawn sequels. And then also, I'm to

671
00:37:33,550 --> 00:37:37,110
Speaker 2: understand the writers kept running into situations where, like, Data's

672
00:37:37,150 --> 00:37:40,129
Speaker 2: having a conversation with the Borg, which if it's like

673
00:37:40,170 --> 00:37:42,370
Speaker 2: in the old series, he'd be talking to like a

674
00:37:42,430 --> 00:37:45,870
Speaker 2: warehouse full of Borg. And maybe that back and forth

675
00:37:45,989 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 2: becomes a little stale. But if you have a very

676
00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:53,299
Speaker 2: talented actress playing the personified Borg, then you can have

677
00:37:53,340 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: it a bit more dynamic. Then you can even have

678
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: a little sexy because, I mean, what would have been

679
00:37:58,739 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: like if a warehouse tried to seduce Data or Picard?

680
00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:06,009
Speaker 2: It just wouldn't have had that 90s zing to it,

681
00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:06,219
Speaker 2: you know?

682
00:38:06,730 --> 00:38:09,470
Speaker 1: Right, but now we can have an individual Borg body

683
00:38:09,890 --> 00:38:13,110
Speaker 1: getting all up on data and making him a little breathy.

684
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so the introduction of the queen here,

685
00:38:29,219 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 2: the Borg queen, it personifies the danger of the Borg

686
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 2: and creates a focal point for the narrative. And Betty

687
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 2: does create a great central villain role that certainly has

688
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: remained popular, if not divisive, in the Star Trek fandom universe.

689
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: Like this is a this is a character like Khan

690
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,509
Speaker 2: that has been brought back and given different treatments in

691
00:38:51,550 --> 00:38:56,149
Speaker 2: various forms in different Star Trek shows, probably more so even.

692
00:38:57,050 --> 00:39:00,190
Speaker 2: So she's both a favorite. But then also, you know,

693
00:39:00,210 --> 00:39:03,250
Speaker 2: there is certainly a section of the Star Trek fandom

694
00:39:03,270 --> 00:39:06,030
Speaker 2: that's that sees the Borg queen as something of a misstep.

695
00:39:07,190 --> 00:39:11,009
Speaker 1: Yeah, for my part, I think the introduction of the

696
00:39:11,070 --> 00:39:15,180
Speaker 1: queen does remove some of the, to use a pun,

697
00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:20,339
Speaker 1: distinctiveness of the Borg as a villain species. What originally

698
00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:24,430
Speaker 1: makes the Borg so special, at least to me, makes

699
00:39:24,469 --> 00:39:29,190
Speaker 1: them especially creepy and especially interesting, is their lack of

700
00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:33,500
Speaker 1: distinctive individuality. personality. That's why they're scary is they're this

701
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,580
Speaker 1: hive and there's nobody to talk to. You know, there's

702
00:39:36,620 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: not a customer service representative. There's not a boss you

703
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:41,300
Speaker 1: can get on the phone with.

704
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,580
Speaker 2: I want to take this straight to the top. And

705
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,620
Speaker 2: you're already at the top. The top is the bottom.

706
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: It's just all one.

707
00:39:46,790 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: Right and and that lack of somebody to talk to

708
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,540
Speaker 1: i think makes them scarier that like that's a great

709
00:39:52,620 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: conceit for a villain um kind of in the same

710
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: way that it's scary for i don't know if i

711
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: could say exactly why but it's scary and somehow for

712
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,490
Speaker 1: the same reason that it's scary when the borg do

713
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:08,350
Speaker 1: not react to individuals walking around on their ship uh

714
00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:10,930
Speaker 1: it's just like you're just so beneath them it's not

715
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: they don't even bother dealing with you when you beam

716
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: a board. They've got other stuff to take care of.

717
00:40:16,940 --> 00:40:19,739
Speaker 2: Or you kill one of them and their main response is, well,

718
00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:22,259
Speaker 2: replace that one with another one doing the exact same thing.

719
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,509
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And so that makes them interesting. So I

720
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:29,410
Speaker 1: would say adding the Borg Queen detracts from that appeal

721
00:40:29,450 --> 00:40:31,969
Speaker 1: of the Borg as a species. But I can see

722
00:40:31,989 --> 00:40:34,009
Speaker 1: a couple of reasons why it does make sense to

723
00:40:34,050 --> 00:40:36,810
Speaker 1: introduce this character in the movie. One is exactly what

724
00:40:36,830 --> 00:40:38,630
Speaker 1: you were talking about. Like, you've got to have somebody

725
00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:42,420
Speaker 1: to talk to. Like, a movie... without a villain that

726
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,339
Speaker 1: has any personality or can converse at all, it's just

727
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: going to be really hard to write. You know, you

728
00:40:47,780 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: gotta kind of have a villain with a mind that

729
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: you can interact with. Uh, and then the other thing

730
00:40:54,380 --> 00:40:57,020
Speaker 1: I would say is that at this point, the Borg

731
00:40:57,060 --> 00:40:59,740
Speaker 1: were not new. Now they'd been around on the show

732
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: for quite some time by the time the movie came out.

733
00:41:02,820 --> 00:41:06,259
Speaker 1: So you, you are looking to change up the formula

734
00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:10,110
Speaker 1: at that point. Uh, and so, This does kind of

735
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:13,090
Speaker 1: make sense, even though, at least from my perspective, as

736
00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:15,989
Speaker 1: somebody with less The Next Generation experience going in, it

737
00:41:16,700 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 1: does feel like it kind of takes away from what

738
00:41:19,380 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: makes this species really scary and special. Yeah, yeah.

739
00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:28,620
Speaker 2: And I've sort of ping-ponged back and forth over the years.

740
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,210
Speaker 2: I think I'm in a balanced place where I can

741
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:32,590
Speaker 2: see it both ways now. But I remember when the

742
00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: film first came out, I was, I think, at first

743
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,820
Speaker 2: kind of confused and maybe resistant to the idea because,

744
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,339
Speaker 2: you know, I was a fan of the show and

745
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: I knew what the Borg were about. And they did

746
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: not have a centralized leader. And that was the whole thing,

747
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: like we've been saying. But on the other hand, like,

748
00:41:46,969 --> 00:41:50,170
Speaker 2: it's a really cool film. And Alice Krieg is great

749
00:41:50,190 --> 00:41:52,650
Speaker 2: in the role. And when it came out, I was

750
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:55,610
Speaker 2: 17 years old. So it's like Borg Queen was awesome.

751
00:41:55,650 --> 00:41:58,810
Speaker 2: You know, if they'd had a I'm surprised I didn't

752
00:41:58,830 --> 00:42:00,910
Speaker 2: have like a poster of the Borg Queen on my wall,

753
00:42:00,969 --> 00:42:03,730
Speaker 2: this sort of thing. Like she was great. So I

754
00:42:03,770 --> 00:42:05,739
Speaker 2: was won over. But then after that, I think I

755
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 2: went and got into a period where I was like,

756
00:42:07,660 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 2: that was a complete betrayal of the Borg. Like the

757
00:42:09,860 --> 00:42:11,860
Speaker 2: Borg had this cool idea and they ruined it.

758
00:42:12,219 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: You ruined my childhood.

759
00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 2: But now I think I'm in a much more balanced

760
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,670
Speaker 2: place where I can, I realize both. It's like, yeah,

761
00:42:18,690 --> 00:42:21,310
Speaker 2: they shook it up. They took away some of the magic,

762
00:42:21,469 --> 00:42:23,230
Speaker 2: but they created some new magic as well.

763
00:42:23,510 --> 00:42:23,710
Speaker 1: Right.

764
00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:26,370
Speaker 2: And, you know, so it kind of goes both ways.

765
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,540
Speaker 1: It's hilarious when she's like whispering on Data's neck. I

766
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't lose that for anything.

767
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's pretty great. But the other thing

768
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 2: is it encourages me to sort of like lean in

769
00:42:36,980 --> 00:42:40,660
Speaker 2: and try and make it make more sense within the

770
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:43,570
Speaker 2: context of the show. So I was thinking about it

771
00:42:43,630 --> 00:42:46,710
Speaker 2: along these lines. So, OK, she's apparently supposed to be

772
00:42:46,750 --> 00:42:50,509
Speaker 2: there when Picard was originally taken and transformed in the

773
00:42:50,530 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: best of both worlds episodes. Picard is, again, transformed into locutus,

774
00:42:56,260 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: into the speaker, perhaps out of a realization, you know,

775
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 2: something that they've learned through experience or assimilation, probably assimilation,

776
00:43:04,580 --> 00:43:08,410
Speaker 2: that's their favorite, that the culture that they've made contact

777
00:43:08,469 --> 00:43:15,009
Speaker 2: with is highly individualized and responds well to certain charismatic individuals.

778
00:43:15,710 --> 00:43:18,170
Speaker 2: So maybe I'm missing something in the deeper lore. I

779
00:43:18,190 --> 00:43:21,549
Speaker 2: probably am, or something they've established as canon later on.

780
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: But it seems to me that the establishment of the

781
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,260
Speaker 2: queen might have been something that they implemented after their

782
00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: first contact with the Federation or other civilizations in the

783
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:34,980
Speaker 2: neutral zone before taking on Picard. Like a realization, it's like,

784
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: you know, there's nothing wrong with the way we're doing things.

785
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,650
Speaker 2: But public facing in, you know, dealing with these civilizations

786
00:43:43,730 --> 00:43:47,790
Speaker 2: for the first time, they seem to react better if

787
00:43:47,830 --> 00:43:50,710
Speaker 2: there is some sort of a centralized individual that they

788
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:53,870
Speaker 2: are presented with. Maybe one that they recognize in the

789
00:43:53,890 --> 00:43:56,310
Speaker 2: case of Picard. You know, they're like, everybody loves this

790
00:43:56,350 --> 00:43:58,790
Speaker 2: Picard guy. We need to get ourselves one of those.

791
00:43:59,890 --> 00:44:02,790
Speaker 2: And here's a great solution to that. And then the

792
00:44:02,830 --> 00:44:04,469
Speaker 2: queen is maybe a part of that as well.

793
00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:07,410
Speaker 1: I was making some notes about this for a part

794
00:44:07,430 --> 00:44:09,110
Speaker 1: I want to talk about later, but I came to

795
00:44:09,150 --> 00:44:12,390
Speaker 1: the same conclusion, actually. The thing that makes the most

796
00:44:12,570 --> 00:44:15,210
Speaker 1: sense of the Borg queen to me is that she

797
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:17,569
Speaker 1: is a spokesperson. So the Borg are.

798
00:44:19,050 --> 00:44:26,690
Speaker 1: Functions as this consensus-based collective. And they realize that within

799
00:44:26,770 --> 00:44:31,069
Speaker 1: their culture, they don't have the need to articulate what

800
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:35,270
Speaker 1: they're doing because it just happens. The consensus decides and

801
00:44:35,310 --> 00:44:38,710
Speaker 1: then action is taken. But they realize they actually have

802
00:44:38,750 --> 00:44:41,910
Speaker 1: to be able to put into words their motivations and

803
00:44:41,950 --> 00:44:45,350
Speaker 1: what they're doing In order to, I don't know, manipulate

804
00:44:45,390 --> 00:44:48,860
Speaker 1: or communicate with these other beings. Like she explicitly is

805
00:44:48,890 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 1: there to manipulate data because that is useful in the

806
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 1: plot of First Contact. And manipulation requires both articulation and personality.

807
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: So she, you know, she speaks and she speaks in

808
00:45:01,620 --> 00:45:04,819
Speaker 1: a particular way as a particular type of person, but

809
00:45:04,930 --> 00:45:08,410
Speaker 1: also acts on behalf of the Borg Collective. So that

810
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:09,110
Speaker 1: was my take on it.

811
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're always updating their weapon systems, and manipulation is

812
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: a major weapon and tactics subcategory.

813
00:45:15,420 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, though it is confusing because I feel like that

814
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,290
Speaker 1: makes the most sense of it with everything else we

815
00:45:21,330 --> 00:45:24,950
Speaker 1: know about the Borg lore, the core Borg lore. But

816
00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:29,910
Speaker 1: it also sometimes feels like she is a commanding authority figure, which...

817
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: That may just be some genuine inconsistency in the characterization.

818
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,489
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I think there is just always going to

819
00:45:36,510 --> 00:45:40,250
Speaker 2: be something that doesn't completely add up. But yeah, this

820
00:45:40,350 --> 00:45:42,969
Speaker 2: idea that they would latch on to the need for

821
00:45:43,610 --> 00:45:47,300
Speaker 2: like a single individual to at least present to other civilizations.

822
00:45:47,739 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: This would make sense because, you know, humans at least

823
00:45:50,140 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 2: are a highly social species. It's why in both highly

824
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 2: positive and highly negative ways, we tend to follow leaders

825
00:45:56,940 --> 00:46:00,630
Speaker 2: and You know, broadly, humans seem to prefer democracy to

826
00:46:00,690 --> 00:46:04,770
Speaker 2: autocracy through, you know, the various conditions may force them

827
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:07,650
Speaker 2: to slide toward preferences for a single ruler, such as

828
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:11,180
Speaker 2: during periods of crisis or perceived crisis. And, of course,

829
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: would-be autocrats are always willing to highlight something that you

830
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,580
Speaker 2: should see as a crisis in their eyes.

831
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: Yeah.

832
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:19,540
Speaker 2: This is bad.

833
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: Give me power. Yeah.

834
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. But still sliding towards dictatorship or not. human power

835
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:31,170
Speaker 2: structures often depend on centralized individual power, individual leaders. And,

836
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:34,090
Speaker 2: you know, this is all around us, obviously, from in

837
00:46:34,110 --> 00:46:37,629
Speaker 2: the form of everything from regional managers to CEOs, from

838
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:41,910
Speaker 2: mayors to presidents, from head coaches to movie directors, you know.

839
00:46:41,930 --> 00:46:46,420
Speaker 2: And while we probably, you know, hopefully we reject the

840
00:46:46,540 --> 00:46:49,219
Speaker 2: idea of a kind of king caveman ruling over us

841
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: through intimidation and strength, we still employ the basic concept

842
00:46:54,270 --> 00:46:58,190
Speaker 2: ideally with significant checks and balances on whatever kind of

843
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: king caveman we have. You know, in work, you know,

844
00:47:02,739 --> 00:47:05,260
Speaker 2: in any part of our lives.

845
00:47:05,739 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: Well, this is an interesting thing about Star Trek. And

846
00:47:09,219 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: maybe you could say an irony about the Star Trek

847
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,460
Speaker 1: that we get, the view into the Star Trek universe

848
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:18,310
Speaker 1: that we get through the shows. And it's that while

849
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: the Federation seems to be a very freedom-oriented entity, mostly

850
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,650
Speaker 1: anti-authoritarian society, uh, our main view into it takes place

851
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:32,649
Speaker 1: on essentially a military vessel, which has to function under

852
00:47:32,710 --> 00:47:35,370
Speaker 1: a tight chain of command. And I think you can

853
00:47:35,410 --> 00:47:38,900
Speaker 1: recognize that even, even if you're a person who very,

854
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,219
Speaker 1: very much value, you lean way to the libertarian side,

855
00:47:42,260 --> 00:47:45,820
Speaker 1: you very much value individual freedom in society at large.

856
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:50,219
Speaker 1: You could accept that, uh, that obedience to authority and

857
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: a strict hierarchy are very important in say, commanding a ship.

858
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:55,489
Speaker 2: Yeah.

859
00:47:55,950 --> 00:47:57,989
Speaker 1: Cause like you have to have, you have to have

860
00:47:58,030 --> 00:48:00,670
Speaker 1: a lot of people working together all at once to

861
00:48:00,830 --> 00:48:04,009
Speaker 1: execute commands. And it doesn't work if people are like, well,

862
00:48:04,030 --> 00:48:06,670
Speaker 1: I don't feel like doing, doing that right now. Yeah.

863
00:48:06,830 --> 00:48:10,500
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, you know, much has been written

864
00:48:10,700 --> 00:48:14,740
Speaker 2: about the, the operational processing speed of having an individual

865
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,540
Speaker 2: boss who makes the final call. you know, in life

866
00:48:17,580 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 2: or death matters or in difficult scenarios where groupthink might

867
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,339
Speaker 2: create an impasse, having a single shot caller can make

868
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,359
Speaker 2: all the difference. And at the same time, you know,

869
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:33,399
Speaker 2: outsized modern examples of leadership present us where these sorts

870
00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 2: of scenarios can be just absolutely disastrous. So Ben Bradford,

871
00:48:38,260 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: host of the podcast Are We Doomed, he was on

872
00:48:40,739 --> 00:48:43,260
Speaker 2: the show recently and was chatting with him about such

873
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 2: topics as nuclear war. And he discussed he discusses on

874
00:48:47,020 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: that show and you discussed a little bit in this

875
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,770
Speaker 2: episode about, you know, the decision placed on a hypothetical

876
00:48:52,830 --> 00:48:55,950
Speaker 2: decision placed on a president regarding how to respond to

877
00:48:55,989 --> 00:48:59,330
Speaker 2: a perceived nuclear attack and how this is just an

878
00:48:59,489 --> 00:49:03,690
Speaker 2: absolute bad meeting that in simulations like simulations that have

879
00:49:03,710 --> 00:49:05,950
Speaker 2: been done of this sort of meeting, they tend to

880
00:49:05,989 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 2: result in the worst, most destructive and further destabilizing decisions

881
00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:14,620
Speaker 2: on the part The person put, you know, not to

882
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:17,950
Speaker 2: say that these studies were conducted with actual sitting presidents,

883
00:49:17,969 --> 00:49:20,910
Speaker 2: but conducted with individuals, you know. like, well, how does

884
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:22,989
Speaker 2: an individual respond to this sort of thing, the role

885
00:49:23,010 --> 00:49:25,910
Speaker 2: play of it? And it almost always turns out bad.

886
00:49:25,930 --> 00:49:30,380
Speaker 2: There are cases where this sort of single decision maker,

887
00:49:30,460 --> 00:49:34,580
Speaker 2: single shot caller power structure is going to make things

888
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,180
Speaker 2: move faster, but not necessarily in the best ways.

889
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,299
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that I am conscious of

890
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,580
Speaker 1: and really just can't bear to think about. Yeah. Yeah.

891
00:49:44,780 --> 00:49:45,220
Speaker 1: It's rough.

892
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:49,700
Speaker 2: But that's humans. On the Borg end of thing, there's

893
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,810
Speaker 2: no need for them to have a queen fulfilling that

894
00:49:52,890 --> 00:49:57,170
Speaker 2: role because we're to understand their processing speed is already exceptional,

895
00:49:57,210 --> 00:50:01,750
Speaker 2: beyond exceptional. Like they're just a single mind. Like every

896
00:50:01,810 --> 00:50:04,380
Speaker 2: member of the Borg is the Borg. The ship is

897
00:50:04,410 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 2: the Borg. They already function as one on a cognitive

898
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,219
Speaker 2: level and can make at least ship-wide, if not civilization-wide

899
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:17,379
Speaker 2: decisions instantly, and it's unanimous. And you can get into

900
00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:22,589
Speaker 2: some wharf-based criticisms of maybe what those decisions are always

901
00:50:22,610 --> 00:50:25,230
Speaker 2: going to look like. But still, we get the idea

902
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:29,050
Speaker 2: that they run fast and they are an efficient system

903
00:50:29,170 --> 00:50:32,069
Speaker 2: when it comes to these decision-making situations.

904
00:50:32,570 --> 00:50:34,950
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, we talked about that in the last episode

905
00:50:34,989 --> 00:50:38,270
Speaker 1: about how the board represent a kind of epitome of

906
00:50:38,350 --> 00:50:42,589
Speaker 1: the cybernetic ideal, the command and control ideal, uh, where,

907
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:46,170
Speaker 1: you know, feedback is given instantly from the scout to

908
00:50:46,330 --> 00:50:49,350
Speaker 1: back to the collective. And then the collective re informs

909
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:52,049
Speaker 1: and upgrades the scout in real time so that like

910
00:50:52,090 --> 00:50:55,259
Speaker 1: you can have somebody beam aboard the enterprise ship. And

911
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,720
Speaker 1: after a couple of hits now they're immune to phaser

912
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,779
Speaker 1: fire because the feedback has been sent back to the whole.

913
00:51:01,170 --> 00:51:02,950
Speaker 1: The whole has figured out what to do about it

914
00:51:03,010 --> 00:51:05,890
Speaker 1: and they've upgraded the scout immediately. Yeah.

915
00:51:06,780 --> 00:51:09,360
Speaker 2: Another thing I was thinking about is, okay, what if

916
00:51:09,420 --> 00:51:13,500
Speaker 2: the original species or species that became the Borg, uh,

917
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,940
Speaker 2: what if they were just like less like us to

918
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 2: begin with? Like we know that we, um, you know,

919
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 2: we like a leader. We tend to default to submissiveness. Uh, we,

920
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,180
Speaker 2: we favor obeying and confirming conforming. And a lot of that,

921
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,969
Speaker 2: you know, goes back to what sort of, um, you know, original, uh,

922
00:51:32,070 --> 00:51:35,469
Speaker 2: social groups did we consist of, you know, tight knit

923
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:38,330
Speaker 2: groups where to be cast out would be, you know,

924
00:51:38,350 --> 00:51:41,890
Speaker 2: starvation and death. And therefore, you know, there, there was

925
00:51:41,930 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: a lot of incentive to just sort of go with

926
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,660
Speaker 2: the flow and, and fall in line behind whatever has

927
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: taken power within a given social unit, uh, that sort

928
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,939
Speaker 2: of thing. Maybe with the original species of the Borg,

929
00:51:52,980 --> 00:51:54,940
Speaker 2: it was a little different. Maybe they were more communal

930
00:51:55,340 --> 00:51:58,900
Speaker 2: by nature and therefore the tech, the technology wasn't, um,

931
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: like a drastic change for them. It was like just

932
00:52:02,219 --> 00:52:04,830
Speaker 2: the logical next step. Let's do what we're doing, but

933
00:52:04,890 --> 00:52:07,890
Speaker 2: let's go ahead and make it even more efficient. Or

934
00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:09,609
Speaker 2: on the other hand, maybe they were far worse than

935
00:52:09,650 --> 00:52:12,210
Speaker 2: we are. And somebody along the line said, we got

936
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:13,690
Speaker 2: to cut this in. We got to cut this out.

937
00:52:13,710 --> 00:52:15,690
Speaker 2: We got to solve this with our technology. And that's

938
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:20,140
Speaker 2: what they did. The other thing I was thinking about is, okay,

939
00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:23,060
Speaker 2: we've been making the argument here. Maybe this is just

940
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,760
Speaker 2: for forward-facing interactions with other civilizations. Let's establish a face

941
00:52:28,820 --> 00:52:31,299
Speaker 2: of the Borg. But when you get into conflict, I

942
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,739
Speaker 2: was wondering, like, does this really help them out all

943
00:52:33,780 --> 00:52:36,500
Speaker 2: that much? You know, it allows for a single villain,

944
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: which works well in storytelling, but it also works really

945
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: well in like propaganda. It like gives you like a target.

946
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,860
Speaker 2: You know, you can imagine like anti-Borg propaganda with the

947
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,140
Speaker 2: Borg queen on the posters, that sort of thing. Cartoons

948
00:52:50,180 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 2: of the Borg queen. I don't know. Maybe that's less

949
00:52:53,420 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: of an interesting take on it all, but it did

950
00:52:57,620 --> 00:52:58,299
Speaker 2: cross my mind.

951
00:52:59,030 --> 00:53:02,650
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting what we've just been talking about kind

952
00:53:02,690 --> 00:53:07,190
Speaker 1: of raised another interpretation of the queen for me that

953
00:53:07,310 --> 00:53:08,910
Speaker 1: I didn't make notes about this because it just now

954
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:10,810
Speaker 1: occurred to me while we were talking about it. But

955
00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:15,890
Speaker 1: it's based on the link between communication and decision making.

956
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:18,700
Speaker 1: I think I've said this on the show before, and

957
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,750
Speaker 1: this really is true of me. I feel like I

958
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:26,130
Speaker 1: often don't really know what I think about something until

959
00:53:26,290 --> 00:53:29,430
Speaker 1: I try to write about it or put it into words.

960
00:53:30,370 --> 00:53:33,270
Speaker 1: And I can find often that I have an illusion

961
00:53:33,330 --> 00:53:38,210
Speaker 1: of explanatory depth about a topic. I can trick myself

962
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:41,490
Speaker 1: into thinking that I have a coherent idea about something

963
00:53:41,890 --> 00:53:44,950
Speaker 1: until I try to articulate it and put it into words.

964
00:53:45,010 --> 00:53:48,140
Speaker 1: And it's the process of putting it into words that

965
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,390
Speaker 1: makes me realize that I wasn't thinking about that very clearly. This,

966
00:53:52,590 --> 00:53:55,989
Speaker 1: this doesn't really make sense. Did I realize inconsistencies in

967
00:53:56,030 --> 00:54:00,060
Speaker 1: what I was thinking and thus articulation can itself be

968
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,739
Speaker 1: a tool for the refining of logic and thought. I

969
00:54:03,780 --> 00:54:06,060
Speaker 1: wonder if there could be something like that with the board,

970
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,510
Speaker 1: if the board have no reason to speak to each other,

971
00:54:08,550 --> 00:54:12,490
Speaker 1: they don't have to put things into words or articulate.

972
00:54:12,570 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: They just think and act all as one instantaneously. I

973
00:54:17,860 --> 00:54:21,090
Speaker 1: wonder if they could discover that having a spokesperson actually

974
00:54:21,140 --> 00:54:24,850
Speaker 1: makes them think differently once they need to, you know,

975
00:54:24,930 --> 00:54:26,790
Speaker 1: codify ideas. Does that make sense?

976
00:54:27,050 --> 00:54:29,250
Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds like a great Star Trek episode

977
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:31,250
Speaker 2: right there, where they put together something like a Borg

978
00:54:31,330 --> 00:54:36,870
Speaker 2: Queen for the purposes of articulating ideas to individuals outside

979
00:54:36,910 --> 00:54:39,660
Speaker 2: of the culture. But then they realize by articulating it

980
00:54:40,060 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: through this spokesperson, it changes the way they think about

981
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:44,340
Speaker 2: the things they're articulating.

982
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:46,750
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, like what if that's the first time

983
00:54:46,790 --> 00:54:50,009
Speaker 1: they realized assimilation sounds kind of bad is when they

984
00:54:50,030 --> 00:54:51,509
Speaker 1: had to put it into words. Have you ever had

985
00:54:51,570 --> 00:54:54,340
Speaker 1: that experience? Like you had, what you thought was a

986
00:54:54,380 --> 00:54:55,970
Speaker 1: good idea until you put it into words.

987
00:54:56,010 --> 00:54:58,140
Speaker 2: Now that I say it out loud, it sounds crazy.

988
00:54:58,180 --> 00:54:59,160
Speaker 2: That sort of thing. Yeah.

989
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. The entire Borg history was, they should have just

990
00:55:03,140 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 1: said it out loud.

991
00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:04,060
Speaker 2: Yeah.

992
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:06,219
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's good. That's good.

993
00:55:06,900 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 2: One last idea from me before we get into another

994
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 2: take that you have here is that, and I didn't

995
00:55:12,820 --> 00:55:16,290
Speaker 2: really explore this one much, but What if, and this

996
00:55:16,390 --> 00:55:19,710
Speaker 2: kind of contradicts everything we see in the movie First Contact,

997
00:55:19,750 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 2: but what if the Borg queen is just the decoy, right? Because,

998
00:55:23,180 --> 00:55:25,859
Speaker 2: you know, the Borg are one. She says, you know,

999
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 2: we're one.

1000
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:26,980
Speaker 1: I'm one.

1001
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:28,940
Speaker 2: I'm the Borg. So it doesn't really matter from their

1002
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 2: point of view. But the other outward facing thing is

1003
00:55:32,219 --> 00:55:35,170
Speaker 2: you put a target on this one individual. And if

1004
00:55:35,210 --> 00:55:37,710
Speaker 2: the Borg Queen, we do not see this borne out

1005
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:40,630
Speaker 2: in the show, in the movie. But I was thinking, like,

1006
00:55:40,650 --> 00:55:42,890
Speaker 2: what if it would mean that you could kill the

1007
00:55:42,910 --> 00:55:44,930
Speaker 2: Borg Queen? It really doesn't matter at all to the Borg.

1008
00:55:44,969 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: They just keep on trucking the same as always because

1009
00:55:47,820 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: they weren't her. They're all of them. But it's just

1010
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,340
Speaker 2: like a, it's a distraction. It's a decoy. Maybe to

1011
00:55:54,380 --> 00:55:57,100
Speaker 2: draw fire from an enemy that is still thinking in

1012
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,410
Speaker 2: terms of individuals and thinks that you can, you know,

1013
00:55:59,450 --> 00:56:02,190
Speaker 2: do a, you know, decapitation strike on the Borg when

1014
00:56:02,610 --> 00:56:04,290
Speaker 2: it's impossible to do so.

1015
00:56:04,770 --> 00:56:07,450
Speaker 1: That's really smart. I think that's a great idea. Yeah.

1016
00:56:07,930 --> 00:56:10,509
Speaker 2: But they do not go in that direction, as we'll

1017
00:56:10,550 --> 00:56:11,210
Speaker 2: discuss Friday.

1018
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 1: There's another thing that I wanted to talk about briefly,

1019
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,980
Speaker 1: which is the idea of the Borg queen in First

1020
00:56:29,020 --> 00:56:34,960
Speaker 1: Contact as the queen in a eusocial insect colony. I

1021
00:56:35,340 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 1: believe that insect queens like queen bees or queen ants

1022
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: were clearly part of the inspiration for the Borg queen.

1023
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:44,290
Speaker 1: Would you agree?

1024
00:56:44,310 --> 00:56:47,509
Speaker 2: I would think so. Yeah, they're very much depicted as drones.

1025
00:56:47,610 --> 00:56:50,009
Speaker 2: And it's like if we have drones, then what else

1026
00:56:50,030 --> 00:56:50,469
Speaker 2: do we have?

1027
00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:55,110
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. But I actually started thinking about some contrasts,

1028
00:56:55,230 --> 00:56:58,150
Speaker 1: ways in which maybe you could think of the Borg

1029
00:56:58,250 --> 00:57:01,180
Speaker 1: queen as actually being like a eusocial insect queen, but

1030
00:57:01,260 --> 00:57:05,330
Speaker 1: more ways that she's really not. So one interesting thing

1031
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:11,629
Speaker 1: is that biologists sometimes point out the idea of a

1032
00:57:11,650 --> 00:57:17,270
Speaker 1: eusocial insect queen is sort of a misnomer because it

1033
00:57:17,350 --> 00:57:23,990
Speaker 1: implies an authority figure who gives orders and strategizes over

1034
00:57:24,050 --> 00:57:26,890
Speaker 1: the control of the state. And I think it is

1035
00:57:27,170 --> 00:57:29,290
Speaker 1: not very fair to say that that is what an

1036
00:57:29,370 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: insect queen does. She may have some It's not that

1037
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:37,530
Speaker 1: she exerts no influence over the workers and drones in

1038
00:57:37,550 --> 00:57:42,350
Speaker 1: the colony. A queen bee can influence workers in the

1039
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:46,570
Speaker 1: colony through pheromones. For example, the queen bee releases a

1040
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: smell that says, we already have a queen bee here,

1041
00:57:49,140 --> 00:57:51,740
Speaker 1: no need to get a new one. So that suppresses

1042
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: the maturation of younger workers into becoming queens themselves. We

1043
00:57:56,580 --> 00:57:59,570
Speaker 1: don't need that because you can smell me here. And

1044
00:57:59,610 --> 00:58:03,350
Speaker 1: there are other more complicated ways that the pheromones of

1045
00:58:03,390 --> 00:58:07,010
Speaker 1: a queen bee can influence the behavior of workers throughout

1046
00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:09,470
Speaker 1: the colony. But for the most part, I think it

1047
00:58:09,670 --> 00:58:12,150
Speaker 1: does not make sense to think of it as the

1048
00:58:12,190 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: queen bee giving orders or directly managing the behavior of

1049
00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: individuals in the hive. She doesn't really do that. I

1050
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: think the eusocial insect queen is better thought of as

1051
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:29,410
Speaker 1: the colony's reproductive specialist. You could argue that she is

1052
00:58:29,490 --> 00:58:34,650
Speaker 1: the most important member of the colony. And clearly, you know,

1053
00:58:34,670 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 1: the way these species are evolved, generally workers will die

1054
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,500
Speaker 1: to protect her. But this is not because she plays

1055
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,260
Speaker 1: a strategic command and control function. It's because she's the

1056
00:58:45,420 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 1: engine of generational survival. She spends all day laying eggs.

1057
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: You know, Queen Bee might lay over a thousand eggs

1058
00:58:51,740 --> 00:58:55,610
Speaker 1: in a day. So she is the reproductive powerhouse of

1059
00:58:55,710 --> 00:59:00,340
Speaker 1: the of the colony. Does the Borg queen seem to

1060
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,930
Speaker 1: have any such relation to the reality of you social

1061
00:59:04,010 --> 00:59:08,290
Speaker 1: insect queens? I'd say yes and no, mostly no. In

1062
00:59:08,310 --> 00:59:12,220
Speaker 1: a very superficial way. you could say that there's some

1063
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: overlap because she expresses sexual interest in Data, and she

1064
00:59:16,660 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: acts seductive toward him in some, frankly, funny scenes. That

1065
00:59:22,420 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: has obvious links to reproduction, but there's no indication in

1066
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: the story that she is actually literally reproductively active or

1067
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,380
Speaker 1: that she is like the mother Borg and gives birth

1068
00:59:34,420 --> 00:59:36,580
Speaker 1: to all the new generations of Borg. I don't think

1069
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,300
Speaker 1: there's any suggestion of that.

1070
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:42,700
Speaker 2: Also, we see it's based on what we see when

1071
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:45,410
Speaker 2: she's lowered into the rest of her body. There's just

1072
00:59:45,530 --> 00:59:47,570
Speaker 2: like none of those parts are present. It's exactly.

1073
00:59:47,590 --> 00:59:47,970
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1074
00:59:47,990 --> 00:59:50,070
Speaker 2: This is a head and part of a spinal column.

1075
00:59:50,190 --> 00:59:53,150
Speaker 2: And presumably the rest is all machine.

1076
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:56,820
Speaker 1: And this does raise an interesting separate question, which is

1077
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,740
Speaker 1: how do the Borg reproduce? In the episode Q-Who that

1078
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,730
Speaker 1: we talked about last time, there's this interlude where an

1079
01:00:04,770 --> 01:00:07,250
Speaker 1: away party goes onto the Borg cube and they're walking

1080
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:09,290
Speaker 1: around on the ship and they find the Borg nursery,

1081
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:13,970
Speaker 1: implying that the Borg produce new biological offspring of their own.

1082
01:00:14,170 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: And then immediately after birth, they are fitted with These

1083
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,860
Speaker 1: technological modifications to make them fully Borg.

1084
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,189
Speaker 2: They're instantly Mr. Potato Headed with new sensors.

1085
01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:24,650
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1086
01:00:25,150 --> 01:00:25,410
Speaker 2: Great.

1087
01:00:25,470 --> 01:00:28,970
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. But in later stories, you were mentioning, Rob,

1088
01:00:28,990 --> 01:00:31,290
Speaker 1: that this gets retconned. Like they later say, that's not

1089
01:00:31,330 --> 01:00:32,190
Speaker 1: really what happens.

1090
01:00:32,330 --> 01:00:33,390
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1091
01:00:33,830 --> 01:00:37,410
Speaker 1: It seems later on, the idea is Borg only make

1092
01:00:37,550 --> 01:00:42,450
Speaker 1: new Borg by assimilating other lifeforms. And there could be

1093
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:45,290
Speaker 1: a later story to contradict this, but it almost feels

1094
01:00:45,370 --> 01:00:50,140
Speaker 1: sometimes like individual Borg bodies could be functionally immortal for

1095
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,820
Speaker 1: all we know, unless, of course, they're destroyed by violence.

1096
01:00:53,220 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd love to hear from listeners on this because

1097
01:00:55,140 --> 01:00:57,780
Speaker 2: I don't have an answer here. And perhaps it is

1098
01:00:57,900 --> 01:01:01,100
Speaker 2: an answer that's provided elsewhere in Star Trek media. But

1099
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:03,410
Speaker 2: it seems like the kind of thing that they would

1100
01:01:03,450 --> 01:01:06,550
Speaker 2: go for because if they are concerned with this philosophy

1101
01:01:06,570 --> 01:01:11,810
Speaker 2: about the synthesis of the biological and the mechanical— and

1102
01:01:11,970 --> 01:01:17,110
Speaker 2: in a way like finding the best form for biological

1103
01:01:17,290 --> 01:01:20,680
Speaker 2: life to take with the machine, then maybe that form

1104
01:01:20,820 --> 01:01:24,500
Speaker 2: is immortal. You know, maybe it is about preserving the flesh,

1105
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,980
Speaker 2: what flesh there is like left in the machine.

1106
01:01:28,020 --> 01:01:28,380
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1107
01:01:29,140 --> 01:01:31,660
Speaker 2: I guess it could go either way because other times that,

1108
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:33,430
Speaker 2: you know, they don't seem to care about the individual.

1109
01:01:33,450 --> 01:01:36,070
Speaker 2: The individual is an important and therefore individual flesh is

1110
01:01:36,110 --> 01:01:36,950
Speaker 2: not important either.

1111
01:01:37,790 --> 01:01:41,450
Speaker 1: If, individual drones can be sacrificed and that doesn't matter

1112
01:01:41,490 --> 01:01:44,690
Speaker 1: to the Borg. But the Borg clearly do care about

1113
01:01:44,770 --> 01:01:47,810
Speaker 1: the survival and expansion of the Borg. What's the part

1114
01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:49,470
Speaker 1: that matters? Yeah.

1115
01:01:50,270 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 2: Well, we do see in the first episode, like when

1116
01:01:52,390 --> 01:01:55,510
Speaker 2: a Borg goes down, another Borg will pull some like

1117
01:01:55,550 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: greebles off of it and collect those little mechanical bits.

1118
01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 2: So that would seem to indicate that the mechanical bits

1119
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,660
Speaker 2: are most important. We don't see them like pulling off

1120
01:02:04,740 --> 01:02:07,450
Speaker 2: a nose or anything, but But then again, we look

1121
01:02:07,470 --> 01:02:09,690
Speaker 2: at the Borg Queen and the idea we're sort of,

1122
01:02:10,090 --> 01:02:13,910
Speaker 2: I don't think they really drive this home in First Contact,

1123
01:02:13,990 --> 01:02:16,650
Speaker 2: but there's not much of her left. There's the idea

1124
01:02:16,670 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: that she survived the events of Best of Both Worlds.

1125
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 2: So there is something worth preserving in the flesh, at

1126
01:02:23,620 --> 01:02:25,820
Speaker 2: least as far as the Borg Queen is concerned, if

1127
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,780
Speaker 2: not all Borg. And she is all Borg. So maybe

1128
01:02:28,820 --> 01:02:31,740
Speaker 2: that's the answer. Now, for the remainder of our look

1129
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,590
Speaker 2: at the Borg here in our core episodes, at least,

1130
01:02:33,610 --> 01:02:37,470
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the Borg Queen as goddess. So,

1131
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 2: you know, obviously, when we tell a story about something

1132
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,980
Speaker 2: like the Borg Queen, when we introduce a character like this,

1133
01:02:45,860 --> 01:02:48,980
Speaker 2: we end up invoking the mythic. We invite comparisons to

1134
01:02:49,020 --> 01:02:53,020
Speaker 2: various gods and goddesses. Now, the Borg Queen is not

1135
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: presented as a god per se. Her treatment and power

1136
01:02:56,760 --> 01:03:00,300
Speaker 2: invite these comparisons in the same way that, you know,

1137
01:03:00,340 --> 01:03:02,810
Speaker 2: you can't if you get into discussions of, like, say,

1138
01:03:02,870 --> 01:03:06,230
Speaker 2: Marvel superheroes. you can't help but compare them to gods.

1139
01:03:06,570 --> 01:03:08,910
Speaker 2: And in some cases, they are actually gods. But in

1140
01:03:08,970 --> 01:03:11,140
Speaker 2: other cases, you know, you get into talking about, like,

1141
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,540
Speaker 2: is Superman a god? You know, what kind of god

1142
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,540
Speaker 2: does Batman represent? Is Tony Stark a god? I don't know.

1143
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,890
Speaker 2: Different conversations like this. And for my own part, if

1144
01:03:22,930 --> 01:03:25,169
Speaker 2: you were to ask me, like, okay, if the Borg

1145
01:03:25,230 --> 01:03:27,770
Speaker 2: queen is a god or a goddess, what kind of

1146
01:03:27,810 --> 01:03:31,710
Speaker 2: goddess is she? I would say, okay, given her dark presentation,

1147
01:03:31,810 --> 01:03:35,070
Speaker 2: you know, her fashion choices, and her rule over the,

1148
01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:37,970
Speaker 2: you know, I think deathly Borg. They have, you know,

1149
01:03:38,010 --> 01:03:42,350
Speaker 2: they're pale, they're corpse-like in many ways, you know, perhaps

1150
01:03:42,450 --> 01:03:45,959
Speaker 2: living in a state that is beyond death in many respects.

1151
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: Technozombies.

1152
01:03:47,700 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're technozombies. I'd be tempted to think of her

1153
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,540
Speaker 2: in terms of various underworld deities. Perhaps she's akin, you know,

1154
01:03:54,580 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 2: to the Norse Hel or to the Aztec Queen of

1155
01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:00,450
Speaker 2: the Dead or various queens of the dead. You could

1156
01:04:00,490 --> 01:04:04,380
Speaker 2: also easily associate the Borg queen with the Jungian concept

1157
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 2: of the devouring mother, a kind of dark side of

1158
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:12,180
Speaker 2: the feminine nurturing archetype, twisted into control and the dissolution

1159
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:15,350
Speaker 2: of the self, and therefore any mythological figure that lines

1160
01:04:15,410 --> 01:04:18,850
Speaker 2: up with those ideas. But I also came across another

1161
01:04:19,290 --> 01:04:21,570
Speaker 2: notion here, and that is what if the Borg queen

1162
01:04:21,690 --> 01:04:23,290
Speaker 2: is a kind of nature goddess?

1163
01:04:23,970 --> 01:04:24,090
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1164
01:04:24,730 --> 01:04:25,630
Speaker 2: So I had not thought about this.

1165
01:04:25,650 --> 01:04:27,550
Speaker 1: I would not naturally make that connection.

1166
01:04:27,570 --> 01:04:31,070
Speaker 2: No, no. But the author of the paper I'm going

1167
01:04:31,090 --> 01:04:33,170
Speaker 2: to reference here gets there in an interesting way. So

1168
01:04:33,210 --> 01:04:37,950
Speaker 2: this is a work by Tudor Boulinistino. This is from

1169
01:04:38,010 --> 01:04:42,900
Speaker 2: Feminist Studies, 2007. The Cyborg Goddess, Social Myths of Women

1170
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:50,500
Speaker 2: as Goddesses of Technologicalized Other Worlds. And It discusses the

1171
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,180
Speaker 2: Borg Queen at length. I almost said Bog Queen, which

1172
01:04:53,220 --> 01:04:56,300
Speaker 2: is something I also accidentally wrote numerous times in my notes.

1173
01:04:56,380 --> 01:04:58,500
Speaker 2: I kept writing Bog Queen and then having to add

1174
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 2: the R. Anyway, establishing a few different ways to potentially

1175
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,080
Speaker 2: regard her within this, you know, different ways to sort

1176
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,700
Speaker 2: of take apart the story here. And one of the

1177
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,490
Speaker 2: major ideas that it explores is that she kind of

1178
01:05:12,550 --> 01:05:16,170
Speaker 2: stands in as a sort of nature deity, perhaps a

1179
01:05:16,370 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 2: techno-nature deity, And the nature in this case is not

1180
01:05:20,340 --> 01:05:23,250
Speaker 2: the nature as we tend to think of it. There's

1181
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:26,250
Speaker 2: no green space on the Borg ship. Everything is, of course,

1182
01:05:26,310 --> 01:05:30,690
Speaker 2: a techno-organic nightmare leaning heavily on the techno. No, instead,

1183
01:05:30,750 --> 01:05:35,660
Speaker 2: the author here depends on Belgian-born French anthropologist and ethnologist

1184
01:05:35,740 --> 01:05:41,940
Speaker 2: Claude Léves-Strauss' theories that, quote, construe nature as the unnameable

1185
01:05:42,020 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 2: beyond the horizon of human consciousness glimpsed through a system

1186
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:51,340
Speaker 2: of of correspondences that make it palatable to the human community.

1187
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:55,590
Speaker 2: Culture thus appears as the realm where nature is reasoned out.

1188
01:05:56,090 --> 01:06:00,770
Speaker 2: The translation of nature through culture ensures humanity's progress toward

1189
01:06:00,850 --> 01:06:03,590
Speaker 2: more evolved forms of social organization.

1190
01:06:05,410 --> 01:06:09,510
Speaker 1: So it's kind of, it is kind of the, nature

1191
01:06:09,610 --> 01:06:12,610
Speaker 1: is the outer world that we must make sense of.

1192
01:06:13,070 --> 01:06:13,470
Speaker 2: Yes.

1193
01:06:13,850 --> 01:06:14,190
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1194
01:06:14,850 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 2: And in a way it is the chaos. which is,

1195
01:06:18,060 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 2: of course, interesting considering that in First Contact, she says,

1196
01:06:21,580 --> 01:06:24,650
Speaker 2: you know, I bring order out of chaos. This would

1197
01:06:24,690 --> 01:06:26,350
Speaker 2: seem to sort of turn that on its head, or

1198
01:06:26,470 --> 01:06:28,830
Speaker 2: maybe she turns it on its head. But as the

1199
01:06:28,890 --> 01:06:32,490
Speaker 2: author here lays it out, the technology of the Borg

1200
01:06:32,630 --> 01:06:36,530
Speaker 2: is perhaps akin to nature in that it's an all-inclusive system.

1201
01:06:36,550 --> 01:06:38,330
Speaker 2: You know, we think of nature, and what do we

1202
01:06:38,350 --> 01:06:40,470
Speaker 2: think of? We think of, well, we're all one. We're

1203
01:06:40,490 --> 01:06:44,110
Speaker 2: a vast integrated system. It's the world in its entirety.

1204
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: And nature is that which continues without our influence.

1205
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:49,570
Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah.

1206
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:51,330
Speaker 1: It functions without us. Yeah.

1207
01:06:51,390 --> 01:06:54,970
Speaker 2: It doesn't depend on the individual. So it's also something

1208
01:06:54,990 --> 01:06:59,410
Speaker 2: that culture attempts to master and subdue while also coming

1209
01:06:59,450 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 2: back around and seeking unity with it again. So in myth,

1210
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:08,420
Speaker 2: a masculine culture hero vanquishes a feminine nature entity. And

1211
01:07:08,460 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: this is, of course, the classic chaos comp for chaos battle.

1212
01:07:13,220 --> 01:07:17,070
Speaker 2: which is perhaps, I think, best summarized in the clash

1213
01:07:17,110 --> 01:07:20,410
Speaker 2: between Tiamat and Marduk. You know, it's as old as

1214
01:07:20,630 --> 01:07:22,210
Speaker 2: human storytelling and myth-making.

1215
01:07:22,610 --> 01:07:26,010
Speaker 1: Yeah, so city boy kills wild feminine monster.

1216
01:07:26,270 --> 01:07:28,350
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so one of the things the author is

1217
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:32,070
Speaker 2: pointing out is that, yeah, perhaps just completely by accident, or,

1218
01:07:32,170 --> 01:07:34,710
Speaker 2: you know, because you engage in storytelling, you end up

1219
01:07:34,890 --> 01:07:38,350
Speaker 2: engaging in the echo of these myths. First Contact is

1220
01:07:38,670 --> 01:07:42,170
Speaker 2: sort of that story. Like, Picard is a masculine culture hero,

1221
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:49,650
Speaker 2: who overcomes this kind of arguably nature chaos power in

1222
01:07:49,790 --> 01:07:53,350
Speaker 2: order to ensure the continuation of culture and civilization in

1223
01:07:53,390 --> 01:07:54,870
Speaker 2: some sort of better form.

1224
01:07:56,350 --> 01:07:58,790
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. OK, I see a lot more than I

1225
01:07:58,830 --> 01:08:00,490
Speaker 1: did at first. Yeah. Yeah.

1226
01:08:00,660 --> 01:08:02,260
Speaker 2: So but you just have to sort of get past

1227
01:08:02,300 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 2: the idea of like nature as plants and stuff, because that,

1228
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,500
Speaker 2: of course, is not what that's not what the Borg

1229
01:08:09,580 --> 01:08:13,820
Speaker 2: are about. They're not interested in them. infusing machines with

1230
01:08:13,860 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 2: plant life that we know of. Maybe they're whole Borg

1231
01:08:16,040 --> 01:08:17,420
Speaker 2: cubes that are just plants. I don't know.

1232
01:08:18,060 --> 01:08:21,570
Speaker 1: Yeah. The outer world that we must make sense of

1233
01:08:21,650 --> 01:08:23,729
Speaker 1: and try to contend with. Yeah.

1234
01:08:23,850 --> 01:08:25,970
Speaker 2: So the author here argues that the film ends up

1235
01:08:26,010 --> 01:08:30,730
Speaker 2: presenting once more, you know, perhaps unintentionally, the idea that

1236
01:08:30,800 --> 01:08:34,260
Speaker 2: masculinity and culture must defeat feminine nature to bring about order,

1237
01:08:35,500 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 2: while also, you know, perhaps, you know, playing with this

1238
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,260
Speaker 2: concept a little and inverting it a little bit. So

1239
01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:45,500
Speaker 2: the nature goddess here, therefore, is reimagined in the technological

1240
01:08:45,620 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: age to express contemporary anxieties and struggles, which would raise

1241
01:08:50,150 --> 01:08:53,210
Speaker 2: some other questions. Is the technological world that we have

1242
01:08:53,270 --> 01:08:56,770
Speaker 2: built for ourselves a kind of chaos that we must

1243
01:08:56,850 --> 01:09:01,360
Speaker 2: now overcome? I think there is. mean, it certainly feels

1244
01:09:01,420 --> 01:09:03,820
Speaker 2: that way sometimes, and there may be some very impassioned

1245
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:04,820
Speaker 2: arguments that it is.

1246
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,979
Speaker 1: I mean, almost nothing now feels more like the monster-haunted

1247
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: wild of Beowulf than our technological sphere. Yeah, it's like

1248
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,740
Speaker 1: we have created the new dark forest full of beings

1249
01:09:18,979 --> 01:09:21,980
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's in our digital devices now.

1250
01:09:22,360 --> 01:09:22,860
Speaker 2: There you go.

1251
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1252
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:25,940
Speaker 2: So anyway, I bring that up just because I thought

1253
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 2: it was an interesting treatment. And again, not one that

1254
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 2: I I wouldn't have necessarily thought of the Borg queen

1255
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 2: as goddess. And if I had, I would have turned

1256
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 2: instantly to the underworld possibilities, not to the nature deity.

1257
01:09:37,460 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 2: So I thought this was rather illuminating and thought provoking.

1258
01:09:40,460 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1259
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 2: And the kind of thing that would work well in

1260
01:09:43,280 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 2: a Star Trek episode. Again, this came out years ago,

1261
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:48,420
Speaker 2: so maybe it already has, and I just haven't watched it.

1262
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:51,639
Speaker 1: We've just been putting a lot of pitches out there,

1263
01:09:51,700 --> 01:09:52,100
Speaker 1: haven't we?

1264
01:09:52,280 --> 01:09:54,939
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And every one of them could have already

1265
01:09:54,979 --> 01:09:57,049
Speaker 2: been done. That's the beautiful thing about it. There's so

1266
01:09:57,060 --> 01:10:00,130
Speaker 2: much Trek out there. We'll hear from listeners. Some of

1267
01:10:00,170 --> 01:10:03,050
Speaker 2: these may have been explored to some degree or another. Yeah.

1268
01:10:03,729 --> 01:10:04,550
Speaker 1: There's Trek of it.

1269
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: All right. We're going to go ahead and close out

1270
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:13,269
Speaker 2: these episodes then. But we will join you again on Friday.

1271
01:10:13,330 --> 01:10:15,250
Speaker 2: Join us for Weird House Cinema, where we're going to

1272
01:10:15,630 --> 01:10:17,590
Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

1273
01:10:17,610 --> 01:10:20,610
Speaker 2: weird film. And in this case, it will be Star

1274
01:10:20,630 --> 01:10:24,470
Speaker 2: Trek First Contact. Should be a fun time. Let's see.

1275
01:10:24,490 --> 01:10:27,590
Speaker 2: We'll just remind you, though, that generally Stuff to Blow

1276
01:10:27,610 --> 01:10:29,990
Speaker 2: Your Mind is a science and culture podcast. And those

1277
01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:32,920
Speaker 2: core episodes are going to be on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

1278
01:10:33,380 --> 01:10:35,800
Speaker 2: You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. For

1279
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:38,479
Speaker 2: audio podcasts, wherever you're getting it, rate and review. That

1280
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:42,299
Speaker 2: helps us out. If you are watching and viewing on Netflix,

1281
01:10:42,340 --> 01:10:45,270
Speaker 2: which is an option these days, make sure you're giving

1282
01:10:45,310 --> 01:10:47,890
Speaker 2: us a couple of thumbs up. Ask to be reminded

1283
01:10:47,930 --> 01:10:49,330
Speaker 2: about future episodes as well.

1284
01:10:50,130 --> 01:10:53,650
Speaker 1: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J. Poswade.

1285
01:10:54,090 --> 01:10:55,450
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1286
01:10:55,490 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1287
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Speaker 1: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stufftoblowyourmind.com. Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio. For more

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Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.