Speaker 1: I just want to make you really mad with my
Speaker 1: Florence and the Machine impression. Do you want to hear it? No? Wait,
Speaker 1: I need to find a tambourine somewhere. Do you have
Speaker 1: like a bag of beans I can grab? Well, he
Speaker 1: fucked me in the bedroom. You're just trying. I'm Lawrence
Speaker 1: in the Machine. I loved and people. Today we are
Speaker 1: talking about something that honestly has been a very long
Speaker 1: time coming. Um and let me tell you, Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings was easily top five most formative piece of
Speaker 1: culture to Rose and I's childhoods. Maybe more so important
Speaker 1: to Roads today than it is to me today. However,
Speaker 1: it is something that we have effectively schooled each other
Speaker 1: on time and time, and it is something that you,
Speaker 1: the Virgins, have asked time and time again for us
Speaker 1: to talk about. So for those reasons, today we are
Speaker 1: talking about Lord of the Rings, the books, the movies,
Speaker 1: the cultural phenomenon, the whole extended universe. Because this is
Speaker 1: like a Virgin the show where we give yesterday's pop
Speaker 1: culture today's takes. I am Rose, Damn you your resident
Speaker 1: full of a tuk, and I am Fran Toronto, your
Speaker 1: local Galandriel and Uh in the words of a wise man, fly,
Speaker 1: how the hell are you so so good? So real,
Speaker 1: so real? As the Black Eyed Peas would say, both
Speaker 1: real and so real. We have been truly having a
Speaker 1: black Eyed Peas spring, and I think it's going to
Speaker 1: roll over into a black Eyed Peas summer and for
Speaker 1: sure fall in winter as well. Wait, can we discuss
Speaker 1: this be has Like all of a sudden, I had
Speaker 1: a few friends that started listening to it again around
Speaker 1: the same time that I was revisiting Monkey Business, which,
Speaker 1: as I've said on the pod before, was one of
Speaker 1: the first albums I ever purchased with my own money,
Speaker 1: along with Love Angel Music Baby. And then there was
Speaker 1: that Black Eyed Peas SNL sketch, and I was like,
Speaker 1: there zons happening. Yeah, I think they truly have an
Speaker 1: unshakable grip on all our necks, and yeah, I love
Speaker 1: that for them. Pump it is an untouchable bob like
Speaker 1: as an opener to an album, like it's still like
Speaker 1: holds all the way up, Like it doesn't even feel dated.
Speaker 1: It feels amazing, it feels current. It could be it's yesterday, today, tomorrow,
Speaker 1: just for context, like we were like in Joshua Tree,
Speaker 1: like listening to this whole album and then the interlude
Speaker 1: from My Humps played where did they go Real Surreal?
Speaker 1: And we were like Stone were like, are they saying
Speaker 1: so real or are they saying surreal? And it is.
Speaker 1: It's a enigma. Also, there was a really great moment
Speaker 1: at the end of our trip where you asked Justin
Speaker 1: and I were hugging and just started spontaneously singing, no, lie, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's really it's really beautiful. Another standout from that
Speaker 1: album was the bridge that I completely forgot about of
Speaker 1: Pump It, where they go diamn, dim damn. I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna start singing because then you'll start talking about singing. Wait,
Speaker 1: speaking of singing, I did listen to the New Florence
Speaker 1: and the Machine album in preparation for for today. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not excited to hear your take on
Speaker 1: it because I feel like it's going to be negative.
Speaker 1: Are you saying maybe you're projecting because you also did
Speaker 1: not like the album as much as you would have. No,
Speaker 1: I do love it, but I know that you hate
Speaker 1: me and want me to Is that the dynamic? I
Speaker 1: So here's the thing I've already said before Florence was
Speaker 1: like I'm an O G Florence stand Um, there was
Speaker 1: really not a lot to latch onto with this album.
Speaker 1: I fell I. I really liked Daffodil, I love um
Speaker 1: Free is it Free? The one that's kind of like
Speaker 1: Thumby and quick Free? Free was the last single she
Speaker 1: released before the album came out. Yeah, Free is my
Speaker 1: favorite song. But like when Florence arrived on the music scene,
Speaker 1: she was a novelty and there was nothing that sounded
Speaker 1: like her and it was just immediately ingenious. And now
Speaker 1: I feel like she's made this album three times and
Speaker 1: I wish that there was something more like the song
Speaker 1: Free that would have changed her pace or made it
Speaker 1: seem like more than sensual chamber music for people that
Speaker 1: used to have tumbler you know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: see merit in that critique. I'm going to love that. Um.
Speaker 1: I do think that Florence makes a very specific kind
Speaker 1: of music. I am very dialed into it and always
Speaker 1: love it. And I think there's some really beautiful songs
Speaker 1: on this album, Like I really loved the singles she
Speaker 1: put out. UM since the album came out, Dreamgirl Evil
Speaker 1: is what I've been listening to a lot. I really
Speaker 1: like Cassandra, I really like Girls Against God. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think her last few records, and especially the last one,
Speaker 1: Highest Hope I, have been a lot quieter and more introspective,
Speaker 1: and like, I do think there are some bangers on
Speaker 1: this album. But yes, it's it's a it's very different.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love Florence. I love how committed
Speaker 1: she is to her aesthetic, her sound, to making the
Speaker 1: kind of music she makes. I will say, and like,
Speaker 1: I don't think this is a good excuse when you're
Speaker 1: talking about music, but seeing her live is such a
Speaker 1: transcendent experience. And I did see her what she was
Speaker 1: touring Highest Hope UM, and even with a record, and
Speaker 1: that is probably my least favorite of her albums. But
Speaker 1: even still, seeing the songs live, they just become completely transcendent,
Speaker 1: and she is such a captivating performer and I just
Speaker 1: love her. I love the album. I will defend her
Speaker 1: until the end of the yea UM. But I I
Speaker 1: do agree that you know, there was a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, I think after ceremonials, she said that she
Speaker 1: wanted to make like an electronic dance album, and that
Speaker 1: never happened. I think the closest we ever got to
Speaker 1: it was when she did that song sweet Nothing I love,
Speaker 1: which I which I love. I do think it might
Speaker 1: be good for her at some point to do oh
Speaker 1: like kind of one off experient, a mental album that
Speaker 1: might sort of like just change things up for her
Speaker 1: and probably will infuse her music going forward with kind
Speaker 1: of different vibes. But all that to be said, I
Speaker 1: really like Dance Fever. I would love to see her
Speaker 1: tour this album because I think it would just hearing
Speaker 1: the songs in that context would bring them even more
Speaker 1: to life for me than they are now. And it's
Speaker 1: an album that I certainly will spend a lot more
Speaker 1: time with and have even since it came out. I've
Speaker 1: been listening to it a lot um when I was
Speaker 1: in New York this week. I was listening to a
Speaker 1: lot when I was walking around Brooklyn, and it's just
Speaker 1: like really beautiful. I love it, and I will kill
Speaker 1: you for not liking. So here's the thing. It's not
Speaker 1: that I'm even like criticizing her. I mean, okay, I
Speaker 1: will say for an album called Dance Fever, there were
Speaker 1: not a lot of dance songs. Okay, there are. It's
Speaker 1: just it's they're like three first of all, second of all,
Speaker 1: but like you can you but you slow dance girls,
Speaker 1: She's no, but fran this is the thing. All you
Speaker 1: listen to our fucking remixes and not not everything is
Speaker 1: going to be like I fear out. I love remixes,
Speaker 1: but I do not listen to majority remixes. I think that, Honestly,
Speaker 1: the way I really do feel about Florence is that
Speaker 1: she was like my like in my the top tier
Speaker 1: of music artists that I adored for a really long
Speaker 1: time in my tumbler era. And I think that because
Speaker 1: she has not changed, but my taste has changed that
Speaker 1: her music, which is sonically gorgeous and still of its own,
Speaker 1: kind of just as you said, like unlike anything out there,
Speaker 1: still is something that I, on a taste level, have
Speaker 1: maybe outgrown. But I also feel like music artists, especially
Speaker 1: women in music like shouldn't have to reinvent themselves over
Speaker 1: and over again, like they are women like Lana or
Speaker 1: even Adele. Honestly, although I do think A Dell's last
Speaker 1: album was very different, like that can do the same
Speaker 1: thing over and over again and they'll always have their base,
Speaker 1: and I think that that is just something that you know,
Speaker 1: I really honor and you are someone who like your
Speaker 1: taste level is essentially you know, a pantheon of Caucasian
Speaker 1: yodelers with lexapro prescriptions that that you idolize. You know,
Speaker 1: the Fiona Apple, Alanis k Bush, Florence the Machine. There's
Speaker 1: one more in there. Taylor doesn't yodel as much. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is all not untrue, but I do I will
Speaker 1: take I do take umbrage with the idea that Florence
Speaker 1: hasn't changed, because I think her songwriting has gotten so much,
Speaker 1: so much, both sharper and softer, like I think she
Speaker 1: if you really take the time and really listen, the
Speaker 1: lyrics are so beautiful and her voice is still just haunting.
Speaker 1: She is a siren, She is a banshee. She is
Speaker 1: the moment for me? Do you did you not that
Speaker 1: this is a stupid tangent, But did you notice that
Speaker 1: like in the little like Spotify album art, Florence in
Speaker 1: the Machine is is is abbreviated to ft Yeah, girl,
Speaker 1: do you think so? Do you think she knows? Do
Speaker 1: you think anyone's told her that? Do you think it's
Speaker 1: so many trans friends? She's like good Judy's with Sean Fay,
Speaker 1: Tommy Dorfman. Someone definitely love that your trans mask. Now, Okay,
Speaker 1: I literally like, how do we become you know, among
Speaker 1: the echelon of Florence's trans friends, Like, how do we
Speaker 1: how do we accomplish this? Do you think I don't know?
Speaker 1: I I have. I have been wondering about this for
Speaker 1: a while, but I actually don't think I could ever
Speaker 1: meet her because I'm she is and this is so
Speaker 1: gay to say she's too important to me. I Similarly,
Speaker 1: I would never want to meet a share because like,
Speaker 1: I don't want Share to like ruin share for me,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Yeah, there are you some
Speaker 1: idols you just shouldn't meet. Although I have met Gaga
Speaker 1: and it was a fun interaction. Okay, wait, I didn't
Speaker 1: even ask you about your New York trip? How did
Speaker 1: it go? It was um really good to be in
Speaker 1: New York. It was also weird. It was disgusting the
Speaker 1: whole time it was there. It's probably like the most
Speaker 1: humid weekend of the year, so it was horrible for
Speaker 1: like looking cute, but it was good. I it weirdly
Speaker 1: ended up well, Okay, so ap peeling back the Curtain
Speaker 1: for All the Virgins. For Christmas, friend got me the
Speaker 1: very sweet gift of two tickets to see New York
Speaker 1: City Centers On Corps production of Into the Which is
Speaker 1: your favorite, it's my It's my time favorite, like tied
Speaker 1: with Sweeney todd Um, but Into the Woods does kind
Speaker 1: of like eke out a little bit forward and was incredible.
Speaker 1: First of all, the tickets were amazing. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I truly it was such a thoughtful gift and such
Speaker 1: an amazing experience with my with my best friend Ryan.
Speaker 1: It was great. The production was great. It was like
Speaker 1: very simple orchestra was on stage, like very minimal staging.
Speaker 1: Everyone was incredible. Heather, who originated the role of Aida,
Speaker 1: and Aida was so fucking good as the Witch. Her
Speaker 1: last Midnight gave me chills. Um Sarah Borellis, I like,
Speaker 1: am not a huge Sarah Barella stand. She was so
Speaker 1: fucking good. Her voice is like butter, her tone is
Speaker 1: so pure. Everything she does is effortless, and the Baker's
Speaker 1: wife really is like the sleeper hit role of that show.
Speaker 1: I think she has some of the sup rising lee
Speaker 1: memorable moments of the show. Um Neil Patrick Harris was
Speaker 1: was really good to the one thing that is bad
Speaker 1: about this production, and I think it's transferring to Broadway.
Speaker 1: That's what the best the like Broadway dot com message
Speaker 1: boards are saying. According to Ryan So, at the end
Speaker 1: of the show, the most moving song on the show
Speaker 1: for me is the finale. Children will listen, So the
Speaker 1: finale is happening. I'm sobbing, And then like the emotional
Speaker 1: crux of the finale, the house lights come on and
Speaker 1: a like community theater group walks out into the aisles
Speaker 1: to sing the end of the finale song with I
Speaker 1: haven't never been taken out of a moment so abruptly
Speaker 1: as the house slights. Not the house lights, that's because yes,
Speaker 1: it was incredibly jarring. I I went from sobbing to
Speaker 1: like confused so quickly. It was such a weird choice.
Speaker 1: And actually, my my brother had seen the show already
Speaker 1: and the night before had said to me, there's something
Speaker 1: that happens in the show that I really didn't like.
Speaker 1: I'm very interested to hear what your take on it is.
Speaker 1: I won't spoil it for you, And it was this obviously,
Speaker 1: it's it just really took you out of the moment um.
Speaker 1: It really cut the like effect of the the effectiveness
Speaker 1: of the emotional core of that song off in in
Speaker 1: a really unfortunate way and undercut what the cast was
Speaker 1: doing on stage, and like, you know, like the people
Speaker 1: from this community theater, they're really going for it, like
Speaker 1: standing in the aisles, they're like singing along and like
Speaker 1: pointing and stuff, and it's it was just not good,
Speaker 1: not right. I hope if it goes to Broadway they
Speaker 1: won't do it. I mean, I'm sure it won't because
Speaker 1: they would have to pay those people and like that
Speaker 1: just won't happen at every mormants. But yeah, other other
Speaker 1: than that, it was wonderful. I had a great time.
Speaker 1: So thank you again. So okay, let's talk about Let's
Speaker 1: talk about the real show of the week, which was
Speaker 1: the premiere of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills season twelve.
Speaker 1: Obviously a premiere episode that was very centered on one
Speaker 1: thing that we all knew, what I actually forgot. I
Speaker 1: was Derek and Pek's house getting broken into and Derek
Speaker 1: getting held a gunpoint. And honestly, it feels like the
Speaker 1: rest of the season is going to be around like
Speaker 1: their PTSD. Yeah, the ramifications, you know, will be felt
Speaker 1: throughout the rest of the season. The moment that was
Speaker 1: the most chilling for me was at the end when
Speaker 1: she was sitting outside alone, going I'm fine fine. People
Speaker 1: are still saying that the Burglaries fake. I after seeing
Speaker 1: this episode, do not believe it, like crying about not
Speaker 1: being there. Wait, the most horrible and also entertaining moment
Speaker 1: of the episode was Sutton talking Kyle and being a
Speaker 1: completeth no other word for it. And that's like at
Speaker 1: a very exact usage, like a sociopathic level of self involvement,
Speaker 1: absolutely no empathy. Like it doesn't even matter how it
Speaker 1: was edited, there's no way for it to have been
Speaker 1: edited for it. It was bad. Horrible person, horrible person, great,
Speaker 1: great reality character. I hate Sutton, and you can and
Speaker 1: you can be both. You can be both, and actually
Speaker 1: sometimes they are. They're required to yes, and every every season,
Speaker 1: I unfortunately have to very toxically rank them. And I
Speaker 1: really don't know where Sutton's gonna land for me because
Speaker 1: I hate, hate, hate, hate Sutton, and yet she really
Speaker 1: is endlessly entertaining because she's so horrible. Um, I have
Speaker 1: to say like this, I think to read's thing, I'm
Speaker 1: like on a horrified to find out that people are
Speaker 1: like doubted that it was ever real, Like, well, that
Speaker 1: was the thing everyone was saying when the news broke,
Speaker 1: because I think because the timing of it, it happened
Speaker 1: the day before they were supposed to start. But I don't.
Speaker 1: I just think I could see sudden staging, yes, robbery,
Speaker 1: but I know I don't. I just don't. That would
Speaker 1: never be my immediate reaction. But I don't actually know
Speaker 1: anybody that that felt that way, So it must be
Speaker 1: like a lot of online sentiment. But like, I feel
Speaker 1: like it's reminding me, honestly of Season two, where they're
Speaker 1: dealing with an extremely real, painful traumatic event that has
Speaker 1: been reality TV ified, and I'm it's gonna be hard
Speaker 1: to watch. Yes, I actually on the plane to New York.
Speaker 1: I hadn't watched the premier yet, but I was flying
Speaker 1: Jet Blue there and they had live TV and there
Speaker 1: was a Beverly Hills marathon happening on, so I tuned.
Speaker 1: I tuned in for a little bit until my xanex
Speaker 1: picked in UM and it was season two UM. The
Speaker 1: episode where they're at Mauriceo's um birthday dinner. They go
Speaker 1: to Hawaii birthday and Kim misses the plane and then
Speaker 1: she and her boyfriend show up late, and I just horrible, horrible.
Speaker 1: Boy was one of Mauricio's golden moments where he was
Speaker 1: he literally called her on her bullshit. He was just like, no, like,
Speaker 1: you were late and this is disrespectful, and I just
Speaker 1: wanted we need to we need to get him back,
Speaker 1: We need him back. Show there is there is nothing
Speaker 1: like like a season of Real Housewives when people are
Speaker 1: related and there is real family drama. That's why New
Speaker 1: Jersey is still elite. And I will be watching New
Speaker 1: Jersey the next time I get the stomach flu um.
Speaker 1: I have to say that as far as like um,
Speaker 1: just to go back to the Sutton thing, I really
Speaker 1: really really hate Kyle when she is so spineless in
Speaker 1: an interaction like that, to be kind of unable to
Speaker 1: really say what's wrong with going with with what's going on?
Speaker 1: Because if if you, my extremely good friend, acted like
Speaker 1: that to me, I would I would like slap you.
Speaker 1: I would say you're you. I'd be like you are lucky.
Speaker 1: It's wrong with you. I'd be like, you are lucky.
Speaker 1: There are another people now right now, get out of
Speaker 1: my transgender home anyways. I was just like, it's moments
Speaker 1: like that where I really I just like, have never
Speaker 1: really loved Kyle as a protagonist for the entire franchise. Um,
Speaker 1: but I really need her to like grow a spine,
Speaker 1: because like right now, it's just like not cutting it.
Speaker 1: She won't, she never will she. Unfortunately, I am back
Speaker 1: on team Erica. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm not proud of this fact. I don't understand you
Speaker 1: have you have gone on record saying that she's your favorite.
Speaker 1: She's no longer my favorite housewife, unfortunately. But I do
Speaker 1: think that there was a moment of the confessional where
Speaker 1: she was really trying to evade questions that the producer
Speaker 1: was asking her, and she was just like they ended
Speaker 1: up like sharing what the producer was asking her because
Speaker 1: she was being so indignant. She was like, well fucking duh,
Speaker 1: like and I just thought that was so iconical. But
Speaker 1: she was also like dodging questions about the Tom Girardi
Speaker 1: of it all and like things being settled. She's so
Speaker 1: she's I don't she's gonna be my favorite from this season.
Speaker 1: I think the new villain, whatever her face is the
Speaker 1: new girl coming in who apparently I heard, is rumored
Speaker 1: to have once like been somewhat involved with Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 1: like she was the sort of a Galaine. Yeah, I mean, god, truly,
Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, they probably all have affiliation to Jeffrey Epstein, like,
Speaker 1: let's to be real, like it's but I don't know.
Speaker 1: We'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Um. But I think
Speaker 1: you all will need to get used to the fact
Speaker 1: that we will be probably discussing Beverly Hills weekly on
Speaker 1: the weekly, and maybe we'll do a Housewives episode, because
Speaker 1: I think that is one of the things that I
Speaker 1: did pressure you into us. Are you were the kind
Speaker 1: of thing to push me over the edge to start
Speaker 1: watching You're you're calling me, I'm calling you no virgins.
Speaker 1: It's been so fun engaging with you on Instagram. If
Speaker 1: you aren't already, please follow our burner Finsta, alt whatever
Speaker 1: like a virgin for We've been getting suggestions and I mean,
Speaker 1: not criticism yet, but like I would accept criticism the
Speaker 1: d M S. I wouldn't necessarily, you know, incorporated into
Speaker 1: anything I do or say, but I would love to
Speaker 1: hear what you have to say. How would an ORCS
Speaker 1: dick even fit in a hobbit. I think Orc dicks
Speaker 1: must be really spiky. As someone who has had a
Speaker 1: lot of Lard of the Rings fan fiction, I have
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time thinking about the anatomy of
Speaker 1: the different races of Middle Earth, and and most of
Speaker 1: my preoccupation is with how would a hobbit hole take
Speaker 1: the dick of saying elf probable? Yeah, hobbitble multiple meanings, Honey,
Speaker 1: we honestly need to Every time we like use terms,
Speaker 1: we need to like explain them. For Phoebe, a hobbit
Speaker 1: hobbit hole is a double entendre. You do Phoebe knows
Speaker 1: about definition? Got it? Okay? Do you really see yourself
Speaker 1: as a gladiol? Yeah? I mean what else would I
Speaker 1: what else would I be? What do you see me as?
Speaker 1: It's a very important but let's start here. Let's start here. Okay.
Speaker 1: I think you are more of I don't know that
Speaker 1: you're an elf. Yeah, they're way too graceful. Um, I
Speaker 1: think hobbit. I'm probably hobbit. I'm anxious. I can't get
Speaker 1: a lot done. I feel like, uh I I make
Speaker 1: a mess of things, but I'm ultimately chaotic good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Hobbits get are giving me because of how much they
Speaker 1: love their things and they love food and revelry. They're
Speaker 1: giving me very torus energy. So I do think you
Speaker 1: are a hobbit. The indulgences of Hobbits and their twelve
Speaker 1: meals that they have a day is very torrey in behavior.
Speaker 1: Sucking breakfast honestly, I mean, let's take it back to
Speaker 1: their little hobbit holes full of plants. My hobbit hole
Speaker 1: is not filled with plants. Okay, so what what what
Speaker 1: of the Middle Earthian races do you think? I am well,
Speaker 1: I was actually going to ask you, Okay, just to
Speaker 1: answer your question very quickly, I think it's gonna be Wizard.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be Wizard and Unford the Unfortunately, there are
Speaker 1: no women in the Lord of the Rings franchise, so
Speaker 1: I can't assign you like because I was going to say,
Speaker 1: I was almost going to say I could see myself
Speaker 1: as a dwarf. But there are witches in the Tolkien universe.
Speaker 1: It just they didn't appear. But but um, I was
Speaker 1: going to ask you growing up, when you were watching
Speaker 1: these movies or reading the books, did you supplant yourself
Speaker 1: on any specific character, because I really feel that this
Speaker 1: is one of those unique entities where I really did
Speaker 1: not relate to any character same I was. I was
Speaker 1: an observer. I was very immersed in the world, but
Speaker 1: there was no like I'm hermiony there. That's not what
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings was for me, honestly, maybe
Speaker 1: a testament to like the artifice of relatability and the
Speaker 1: universal story and how like a lot of Hollywood execs
Speaker 1: always talk about like you need to be able to
Speaker 1: see yourself in this character and blah blah blah, and
Speaker 1: it's like that's actually bullshit, Like a Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings had absolutely nothing to do with me. Even the
Speaker 1: humanity of these characters behind all the fantasy really didn't
Speaker 1: resonate with me at all. And yet it's a fucking
Speaker 1: good story. Yes, well, okay, so I want to know
Speaker 1: what was your first experience with J. R. Tolkien's creations.
Speaker 1: You know, my dad Ad was a big C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis fan, and then by default our whole family was,
Speaker 1: and so you know, we grew up with a lot
Speaker 1: of Narnia things, reading books Narnia are Narnia or the
Speaker 1: places you'l Gore Um, and so by association C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis was best friends with Tolkien. I think that was
Speaker 1: something that my dad always talked about, the Witch and
Speaker 1: the wardrobe boots the house, yes exactly, and so I
Speaker 1: think by association my dad tried to get me to
Speaker 1: read the Lord of the Rings books. I have a
Speaker 1: d H D probably and so definitely couldn't finish any
Speaker 1: of them, but I definitely checked out the Do you
Speaker 1: remember the monster sized compilation of the three books with
Speaker 1: the Ringwraith on the cover that they released in time
Speaker 1: for the movies? I remember checking it was gorgeous, and
Speaker 1: I remember checking that out and trying to read it.
Speaker 1: But ultimately the movies is what solidified my love for
Speaker 1: this franchise, and then through that the visual companions, the merchandise,
Speaker 1: the extended edition, and like the theatrical releases, like everything
Speaker 1: around the culture of Lord the Rings was an obsession
Speaker 1: for my family, and I, um, did you ever have
Speaker 1: the ring? Unfortunately I did. I absolutely had the nice
Speaker 1: one girl, like the one from the catalog, like the
Speaker 1: official Lord of the Rings jewelry catalog that's sold, like
Speaker 1: the Elvin Star, and like this sword. The merch that
Speaker 1: I had that was the most important to me was
Speaker 1: I had an Rwin action figure. It was a set.
Speaker 1: It was Urwin who had a horse, Bilbo, and then
Speaker 1: the Ring Wraith also on a horse from the scene
Speaker 1: where they chase Rwin and she goes through the river
Speaker 1: and does her little Caroline Polcheck moment where she's like
Speaker 1: and then the water comes up and yeah, and it
Speaker 1: was one of my favorite scenes definitely in that movie,
Speaker 1: if not the entire frame, and the only scene with
Speaker 1: one of the three scenes woman exactly. Okay. But to
Speaker 1: answer the question I asked you, because you didn't ask me.
Speaker 1: It back. My entry point in all things Tolkien was
Speaker 1: I received the book The Hobbit as a Hanukkah gift
Speaker 1: one year when I was I want to say, nine
Speaker 1: or ten, before the movies, before the movies, and even
Speaker 1: though before we started recording, you told me that you
Speaker 1: thought that I had never actually finished The Hobbit and
Speaker 1: hated it, which um was very hurtful to me. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: because actually it is definitely one of the defining books
Speaker 1: of my childhood and I remember receiving it so vividly,
Speaker 1: and it's like such a route memory for me. And
Speaker 1: that's when I fell in love with it and started
Speaker 1: reading the books, and then the movies came out, and
Speaker 1: I was so obsessed with the movies I had them
Speaker 1: all on DVD. Well, I had them on VHS first
Speaker 1: and then DVD. Every day for like a year, I
Speaker 1: would start Fellowship of the Ring when I got into bed,
Speaker 1: and that's what would like lull me to sleep. Wow, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean the answer to this question might be obvious,
Speaker 1: but like, what about the world of the Hobbit or
Speaker 1: just like tolkien Esque world building in general was so
Speaker 1: captivating to you? Well, I think with the Hobbit itself,
Speaker 1: it is the way that the story is told, and
Speaker 1: I think some of that comes from part of the
Speaker 1: back story of how the Hobbit was created. So you know,
Speaker 1: obviously Lord of the Rings looms larger in the cultural
Speaker 1: consciousness than the Hobbit does. But the Hobbit is what
Speaker 1: was written first, and it wasn't actually written as a book.
Speaker 1: It was a story that J. R. O. Tolkien used
Speaker 1: to tell his kids, and then he turned it into
Speaker 1: a book. And that's why the book itself is so episodic,
Speaker 1: Like every chapter is a new adventure that Bilboo goes
Speaker 1: on in which he learned something or find something or
Speaker 1: like saves someone and in a very meta way. Um,
Speaker 1: it's passed down through generations through children via an oral history. Yes,
Speaker 1: and so that is what I immediately latched onto was
Speaker 1: that kind of storytelling nature. I think the my favorite
Speaker 1: part of the Hobbit books is the chapter with the
Speaker 1: trolls where where Nowhere? Um, Yeah, where the trolls kidnapped
Speaker 1: the dwarves and Bilbo and ganned off like outsmart them
Speaker 1: and they turned to stone at the end. The premise
Speaker 1: of the Hobbit for those that don't know, is Bilbo Baggins,
Speaker 1: who is the kind of father figure in the Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings franchise. That's kind of puts a lot
Speaker 1: of the um plot in motion. Um basically leaves Hobbit
Speaker 1: in for the first time at kind of Gandalf's pressing
Speaker 1: for the first time. He meets Gandalf as well to
Speaker 1: basically go and defeat Smock the Dragons to help to
Speaker 1: help thorn oaken Shield, who is the king under the Mountain,
Speaker 1: reclaim his kingdom which has been usurped by Smock the Dragon,
Speaker 1: and he and a company of twelve question mark Dwarves
Speaker 1: um go travel to Smog's Layer to kind of reclaim it. Yes,
Speaker 1: And then I was very much led into Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings in a really organic way because that is
Speaker 1: how Tolkien intended it to be. Because Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings is in many ways. You know, Tolkien was creating
Speaker 1: these stories for his children, and his children were growing up.
Speaker 1: So then after he wrote The Hobbit, he then went
Speaker 1: on to create Lord of the Rings, which is obviously
Speaker 1: much more adult and you know, how to kind of
Speaker 1: go and like rheticon a lot of what's in Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings to make it fit into the universe,
Speaker 1: because the thing is in the books, like the ring
Speaker 1: that Bilbo finds, it's just another like narrative thing. Like
Speaker 1: it's it's not like when when the ring comes into
Speaker 1: play in the Hobbit, it's not the ring of Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings. You know, it's just like a magical
Speaker 1: ring that turns him invisible. And then in Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings, you know, he decides, Okay, this is actually
Speaker 1: going to be like you know, the MacGuffin object that
Speaker 1: has all this power and that everyone wants and needs
Speaker 1: to be destroyed. Yeah, and and the Hobbits, I would
Speaker 1: also say, as a race are an encapsulation of like
Speaker 1: a kind of fundamental theme in Tolkien's work, which is
Speaker 1: that heroism comes from the most unexpected places, and that
Speaker 1: you can doubt all you want the like power and
Speaker 1: ability of someone who doesn't look or feel or sound
Speaker 1: like a hero, someone who doesn't even want to be
Speaker 1: a hero um and yet here they are. And like
Speaker 1: I think that in both The Hobbit and a little
Speaker 1: bit of lorther Rings as well, they demonstrate basically Joseph
Speaker 1: Campbell's hero's journey, but like the refusal of the call
Speaker 1: is like a quintessential stage in Joseph Campbell's hero's journey,
Speaker 1: and in The Hobbit Bill it was like, fuck not
Speaker 1: am I leaving Hobbit in you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And like Freddie gets tricked into it and the movies,
Speaker 1: that's changed and they and they make it his choice
Speaker 1: on the trip, which I do think like is kind
Speaker 1: of narratively better. I like that, but you know whatever whatever.
Speaker 1: Whereas whereas in Lord of the Rings, Frodo does make
Speaker 1: the choice to go on this journey. And you know,
Speaker 1: when we were talking before about this episode, you brought
Speaker 1: up the idea of the chosen one and I think
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings specifically, it's such a subversion of
Speaker 1: that narrative of the Chosen One, which I think the
Speaker 1: Chosen One is kind of like an almost more modern
Speaker 1: fantasy take than fantasy that was being created in the
Speaker 1: time that Tolkien was rightening this um it's actually very old.
Speaker 1: It's like it like predates a lot of well, I
Speaker 1: I just mean like in terms of like contemporary literature,
Speaker 1: because you know, these this kind of book that Tolkien
Speaker 1: was writing wasn't being really written for adults at the time,
Speaker 1: and Chosen the Chosen One idea does feel very like
Speaker 1: juvenile to me, because it's it's very something that like
Speaker 1: a young person in a story is like is grafted
Speaker 1: onto them that they're the only person and who can
Speaker 1: like save the kingdom or like defeat the dark Lord
Speaker 1: or whatever. And in Lord of the Rings, you know,
Speaker 1: Frotto isn't chosen. He just like wines he inherits the
Speaker 1: Ring and he makes the decision to go on this
Speaker 1: very arduous journey, and there's nothing like inherently good in
Speaker 1: him that helps him like defeat the bad guy, and
Speaker 1: actually in the end he gives in to the evil.
Speaker 1: He does not throw the ring into Mount Doom. He
Speaker 1: actually is going to keep it for himself, and it's
Speaker 1: only because Gallum attacks him that the ring ends up
Speaker 1: being destroyed. On this whole choke, You're so right as well.
Speaker 1: It's like such a spin on like the Chosen One narrative,
Speaker 1: because like dating back to literally the Bible, which is
Speaker 1: like maybe one of the o g like chosen narrative stories,
Speaker 1: a story that maybe didn't. I don't think the Bible
Speaker 1: necessarily influenced a lot of Tolkien's work, even though a
Speaker 1: lot of Christians love to create allegories and like alignments
Speaker 1: between Lord of the Rings and the Bible. But like C. S.
Speaker 1: Lewis was very in her Bible, and they were best friends,
Speaker 1: and so I think that or more than I mean,
Speaker 1: do you think do you think they were? They were?
Speaker 1: They were think I think they at least jerked off
Speaker 1: together once. They have definitely, yeah, pulled their padges in
Speaker 1: a dark room, pulling your padge. Yeah, they were. They
Speaker 1: were definitely circle jerking in a dark room together, well,
Speaker 1: you know, creating a song song of Solomon and probably
Speaker 1: um but uh I when you come no, not as
Speaker 1: like Aslan and Gandalf are kind of like The Lion,
Speaker 1: the Witch and the aster Glide, the Lion, the Witch
Speaker 1: and the Boy, but not Aster Glade hopefully gun Oil.
Speaker 1: Oh No, Anyways, I don't think that UM Tolkien and
Speaker 1: UM C. S. Lewis's relationship. I think is actually very
Speaker 1: reflected in Lord of the Rings, particularly homoerotic, if not
Speaker 1: homo social, if not homo erotic, relations between all of
Speaker 1: the male characters. Because let's get into that. I mean,
Speaker 1: you talk a lot about I mean, you post a
Speaker 1: lot of fans, a lot of fans are okay, Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings is gay down because there are no women.
Speaker 1: There's no women. Um and Phoebe wants to know producer
Speaker 1: Phoebe wants to know why there are no women and
Speaker 1: there's no women, probably because Tolkien was like gay or
Speaker 1: in the thirties when women basically didn't exist. Because I mean,
Speaker 1: and that's honestly, there's a Sophoebe. There's a kind of
Speaker 1: like lore within the Lord of the Rings that there
Speaker 1: are no female dwarfs and that dwarves just spring out
Speaker 1: of holes in the ground. And I think that that,
Speaker 1: honestly is kind of indicative of how Tolkien was thinking
Speaker 1: about and in that they really just did. The only
Speaker 1: service they provided was to reproduce and even the women
Speaker 1: that we think of when we think of Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings, like in the books, canonically there are two
Speaker 1: women who actually appear in the plot, and that is
Speaker 1: glad Reel and a Owen, because our Win is only
Speaker 1: mentioned in the appendices, and they only beefed up her
Speaker 1: roles for the movie because the scene where she rescues Frodo,
Speaker 1: that's a whole different character in in the books, which
Speaker 1: I love, and you know, Arewin was originally supposed to
Speaker 1: have a much bigger part in the second movie. She
Speaker 1: was supposed to be in the battle at Helm's Deep.
Speaker 1: You broke that news to me when we watched together,
Speaker 1: and I was, I'm so mad, and I think, like,
Speaker 1: in some ways, it's kind I understand the narrative choice,
Speaker 1: because especially in the second movie, we're supposed to understand
Speaker 1: the singularity of a Owen as a female warrior, and
Speaker 1: like people of the time, we're like, what, we can
Speaker 1: have two of them, because like, you know, people want
Speaker 1: to understand that, and I guess it like it does
Speaker 1: maybe make it less impactful when in the third movie,
Speaker 1: a when kills the Witch King of Angmar and says,
Speaker 1: I am no man, but also like they're gonna be
Speaker 1: more than one woman. They're also just unfortunately just not
Speaker 1: very complex characters like a Win and Arwin are kind
Speaker 1: of one. Like Darwin's whole arc is that, like she
Speaker 1: is kind of bad us in the first movie, and
Speaker 1: then the second movie she's like, oh my heart broken,
Speaker 1: I'm dying. She literally spends both of those movies like
Speaker 1: laying in repose, like in a gorgeous gown, being like father, like,
Speaker 1: am I going to be immortal? Or will I find love? Like?
Speaker 1: And then she gives up her immortality for a man.
Speaker 1: For Vigo Mortenson, we've seen his dick. He has shown
Speaker 1: his dick on screen. I don't think she's getting anything special.
Speaker 1: And he's also famously short. He's very short. Did you
Speaker 1: know that he's extremely short? Wait? Did they photoshop him
Speaker 1: so that he was taller than Arwin? I actually don't
Speaker 1: remember him feeling shorter in the movies. They really played
Speaker 1: around with height in every way they could. They did.
Speaker 1: There's lots of perspective um, you know, trickery in the
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings films, thanks to Peter Jackson and
Speaker 1: the magic he created through these movies to go back
Speaker 1: to this kind of like chosen one thing. You know,
Speaker 1: Ericorn is kind of a chosen one narrative. Frodo's kind
Speaker 1: of this. You know. There there are a lot of
Speaker 1: different like ways we're in. Tolkien I think was really
Speaker 1: a student of like the narrative, and he like was
Speaker 1: extremely literary. They were both Cambridge girls and so they
Speaker 1: were and like, you know, Tolkien was like a linguist,
Speaker 1: Like he literally took the languages very seriously and created literal,
Speaker 1: full languages. It wasn't just kind of like a oh,
Speaker 1: I just need four lines and I'm gonna make up
Speaker 1: some things, and then there is there's el He created
Speaker 1: a whole language. He also, you know, there's so much text.
Speaker 1: He not only wrote all of the appendices for Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings. There's the sill Marillion, which tells the
Speaker 1: backstory of you know, sal RAN's rise to power and
Speaker 1: kind of all the mythology of Middle Earth. There's tons
Speaker 1: of short stories written in the world of Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings. There's actually one which explains the backstory between
Speaker 1: Galadril and Gandalf. Did you know that they used to
Speaker 1: fuck what, you know, Gandalf when he used to be
Speaker 1: a mayor, which are like the like kind of angelic
Speaker 1: beings that that the wizards are when they're not in
Speaker 1: like human form. He and Galadriel used to be a thing,
Speaker 1: like thousands and thousands of years ago. Yeah. But then
Speaker 1: when he finally like comes to Middle Earth in the
Speaker 1: form of Gandalf, she is married. Um, and so they
Speaker 1: you know, can't be together. And that's why I guess
Speaker 1: on the Hobbit movies they have kind of a weird
Speaker 1: well Giandolf unfortunately still feels pretty gay to me, or
Speaker 1: maybe everyone's gay and everyone's gay. Yeah, we go back
Speaker 1: to the homo homo roticism of it all we have.
Speaker 1: You know, you you you wrote some ships. I wrote
Speaker 1: some ships down, so the big ones are Salmon Frodo. Obviously.
Speaker 1: There's even you should go search um Lord of the
Speaker 1: Rings Secret Lovers on YouTube because there's a TBS promo
Speaker 1: in which they like have edited it to look as
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings is a love story about
Speaker 1: Salmon Frodo. Um in the Hobbit trilogy, which you know
Speaker 1: is not good, but I definitely watched um. Bilbo and
Speaker 1: Thorin very much have a vibe that it's a fan
Speaker 1: fiction about them. Legolas and Ericorn are kind of a thing.
Speaker 1: I personally am more interested in Legolas and Gimley. I
Speaker 1: was gonna say, like Lass and Gimley, I Legolas was
Speaker 1: there's lots of crouching down in that relationship. Let's just
Speaker 1: say that. I'm sure. I'm sure they have, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe a step stool involved at some point. Lego Loss
Speaker 1: was really like the sexual wakening for so many fags,
Speaker 1: and and for myself, I had the hugest crush on
Speaker 1: Orlando Bloom as Lego Loss. To talk about that for
Speaker 1: a little bit at the fense that Lego Loss this
Speaker 1: is so corny, but Legolas was like a kind of
Speaker 1: gender nonconforming, kind of like, you know, girl, Lego like
Speaker 1: a lot giving is giving heathen skirt, tides wig, you know,
Speaker 1: or maybe Legolass is given like in in their in
Speaker 1: their Instagram bio. It's like any pronouns are fine, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: any right, yeah, Lego Loss is giving that. All elves
Speaker 1: in general, I think, are kind of like they their
Speaker 1: their race and world seems to exist so much outside
Speaker 1: of Middle Earth and like the forest, yes, and then
Speaker 1: and then they like leave to go to war to
Speaker 1: go to val Howl or something. They go to like
Speaker 1: basically heaven, but it's like not really heaven. It's just
Speaker 1: this like perfect world where they the undying land, which
Speaker 1: is so sorry, uninteresting as like a as a like
Speaker 1: in terms of a writer's perspective, like there's nothing interesting
Speaker 1: to me about going to like a heaven place. And
Speaker 1: in my opinion, controversially, I think that the last thirty
Speaker 1: minutes of the third movie are extremely boring. Well there's well,
Speaker 1: you know, there's so many fake endings and the movie
Speaker 1: drags on, but you know the fact that the that
Speaker 1: the elves go somewhere did give us the I think
Speaker 1: the best line of all the movies, which is when
Speaker 1: Galadriel says I passed the test, I will diminish and
Speaker 1: go into the West and remain, which is my favorite
Speaker 1: meme of all time. Yeah, it is the one that
Speaker 1: I post like twenty times a year. Look all shall
Speaker 1: love me and despair. That's my Twitter bio. No, it's
Speaker 1: actually a perfect Twitter bio for you not gonna lie. Yes,
Speaker 1: um okay. So, in terms of other queer coded characters,
Speaker 1: the urukai um, which are the kind of bastardized or
Speaker 1: that's that Saramon creates. He's bred to be killing machines. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: they I guess it might be because they have a
Speaker 1: high poet, definitely a marinator. The Hearts were coming in
Speaker 1: with big stars and they were going, yeah, we're going
Speaker 1: to get those hobbits. Yeah, I'm just like imagining an orc,
Speaker 1: like like putting a third arrow into bor a mirror.
Speaker 1: Like just keep dying and Dyane and Diane and Dane.
Speaker 1: We got there, We got there. Funny enough, the Orcs
Speaker 1: were the only roles up in the show outside of
Speaker 1: the main characters that were played by women. I think
Speaker 1: I think almost a third, they say, of the Orcs
Speaker 1: in the movie franchise were played by women. Love. Um,
Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion representation matters. Sure. Oh my god, Phoebe
Speaker 1: is dying in the booth hearing things about Tolkeen very
Speaker 1: basically the first time, because Phoebe's never seen the little
Speaker 1: of the Rings trilogy and were like the book context
Speaker 1: or read the books, so we're like contextualizing all of
Speaker 1: this and it's just bizarre out of context. Um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I I feel like I growing up. I don't know
Speaker 1: if I really picked up on the homo eroticism of
Speaker 1: like these male friendships, but male homo social friendships were
Speaker 1: the string that pulled a lot of you are you
Speaker 1: know that that kind of vibe? Yeah, and they like
Speaker 1: caress each other's cheek for like like like a fully
Speaker 1: holding yeah, I love you well, even um when Boromir
Speaker 1: dies in Fellowship of the Ring, like I mean obviously
Speaker 1: he and Ericorn were fucking and sucking you know when
Speaker 1: the Hobbits were sleeping at night. That was a loss
Speaker 1: for sure. Also, maybe there's maybe some like incest a
Speaker 1: foot between like bar Mere and far Mere or Larmer
Speaker 1: so hot fer Farmer is maybe hottest next to like
Speaker 1: you know what I hate is that a Win is
Speaker 1: like I'm this girl boss warrior. I killed the witch
Speaker 1: king of Angmer, and then at the end she's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to lay down my sword and Mary farm here.
Speaker 1: That was so boring, so lazy, because a Owen and
Speaker 1: Rwin obviously should have hooked up. Yeah, absolutely, but like
Speaker 1: a Owen falling in love with Farming here, Like I
Speaker 1: don't think they even expanded on that in the extended edition,
Speaker 1: Like it was just this is what I'm saying born,
Speaker 1: which is why the second movie is the best movie
Speaker 1: and a win. Oh the second movie, absolutely, True Towers
Speaker 1: is the best movie. True Beard. Are you kidding me? Yes? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Tree Beard is giving radical Ferry, also played by Jonathan
Speaker 1: Rees Davies, who played Gimli, who also played the elephant
Speaker 1: in my favorite childhood film, Cats Don't Dance. Get ready
Speaker 1: for that episode. By my god, you are going to
Speaker 1: have to watch it, I know looking forward to it. Um.
Speaker 1: I would love to ask you if you thought Gandalf
Speaker 1: was gay because it was played by Ian McKellen, who
Speaker 1: is famously gay, but Sean Connery, who is famously not gay,
Speaker 1: did turn down the role. Um. I think Gandolf transcends sexuality,
Speaker 1: so he's a gender. I think Gandolf is a um
Speaker 1: trans elder. Oh oh, I love that trans elder, trans elder,
Speaker 1: no transferm trans elder who is kind of like, I
Speaker 1: don't care about shaving anymore. You know. She said, I
Speaker 1: do not have to present to you in a certain way.
Speaker 1: Non binary trans elder, non binary people don't owe you.
Speaker 1: Androgen is exactly exactly. Oh my gosh, especially when she
Speaker 1: comes back as Gandalf the White with that lace laid.
Speaker 1: What were the hair and makeup? People on Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings doing that people in current day movies cannot replicate.
Speaker 1: Like we saw Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
Speaker 1: last night, and Doctor Stranger's hairline was so clocky. And
Speaker 1: then in fucking nine the nineties, we had people blending
Speaker 1: Gandalf edges like butter but it was melted. I honestly, okay,
Speaker 1: I would love to talk about like watching the franchise
Speaker 1: in adulthood versus watching his childhood, because I recently rewatched
Speaker 1: and that was actually one of the things that I
Speaker 1: noticed was the way that Gandalf really was kind of queenie,
Speaker 1: Like he loved a reveal, Okay, like when he came
Speaker 1: up all pretended to be Saramon just for the gang,
Speaker 1: just for and then he did it again when he
Speaker 1: went to Um not Helm's Deep, when he went to
Speaker 1: rohan to to find the poisoned king. I think they
Speaker 1: would play Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings happening
Speaker 1: the funk up. Absolutely not, but like literally when he
Speaker 1: came to rohan On and he was, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to um basically eradicate the poison from Theoden and like
Speaker 1: is giving gand off the gray and then like you thought,
Speaker 1: you thought if the White she brings it to you
Speaker 1: every bush. She took out her cloak and she said yeah,
Speaker 1: and then like you know, um aer Gornett and like
Speaker 1: a last backup dance kind of like you were telling
Speaker 1: me that. Ian McKellen turned down another role to do this. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so Ian McKellen did not play Dumbledore because
Speaker 1: he was like, well, I already played Gandoff, so like
Speaker 1: I'm not going to do another wizard moment. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: would be way too repetitive. Like those are the two
Speaker 1: most famous Elder Wizards ever aside from Merlin, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, So like for one person to play
Speaker 1: all of them just would be not right. Um. I
Speaker 1: do love the battle between Saramon and Gandalf and Fellowship
Speaker 1: of the Rings where they're just basically like grunting at
Speaker 1: each other. They're like with their staffs are like just
Speaker 1: like hours of footage that are just welcome to like
Speaker 1: a virgin. And then when she's like Seremon is like
Speaker 1: spinning the staff and then goes up into the ceiling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is actually and then like does a tip. I
Speaker 1: am by no means a gamer, but at the time
Speaker 1: I will I was a loser and had no friends.
Speaker 1: So the Lord of the Rings games. Video games are
Speaker 1: extention course, they're all I'm not. I'm not a video game.
Speaker 1: And anyway, The Two Towers was kind of the first
Speaker 1: real video game to hit the market and it was amazing,
Speaker 1: and then they really leveled up with the Return of
Speaker 1: the King, which is definitely the best video game. But like,
Speaker 1: I'm just bringing it up because like the majority of
Speaker 1: you playing this game is like Gandalf and others just
Speaker 1: doing ha ha, you know, like the entire time, um,
Speaker 1: and it never it never got old. Like I remember,
Speaker 1: I like completed the Return of the King video game
Speaker 1: like seventeen times in my in my childhood. I love that.
Speaker 1: I just searched Lord of the Rings thunderpost remix in
Speaker 1: YouTube and John John Williams really upset M. But you
Speaker 1: know what, I was obsessed with the song that Billie
Speaker 1: Boyd who plays Pippin um sings. What is that and
Speaker 1: that has a great remix? Yes, yes, yes, literally google
Speaker 1: and we should listen to it right now. It's an
Speaker 1: amazing club remix of Pippins song Edge of Night. This
Speaker 1: is not the one that I was thinking of, but
Speaker 1: I'm still feeling it. Yeah, it's good. It's good as skips. Okay,
Speaker 1: that was kind of post. Will be adding this to
Speaker 1: my UM Hot Girl Walk playlist. Love that. Um anyways,
Speaker 1: I did love that song as well. I I will
Speaker 1: complain briefly that, um, there are too many songs in
Speaker 1: general in the Lord of the Rings books, too many songs,
Speaker 1: too many poems. They love to sing a song, they
Speaker 1: love to say riddles in rhyme riddles. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: Oh my god. The Hobbit is prime predominantly riddles like it. Well,
Speaker 1: that's how in the original you know, telling of the Hobbit,
Speaker 1: Gallum is much more of a sort of like tricksie
Speaker 1: character than an outright villain. Yeah. But the riddles were
Speaker 1: like very like snriddles in the very snapple bottle cap
Speaker 1: kind of riddles like and then and then a popsicle.
Speaker 1: The songs were giving very like dove secrets chocolate like
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like I just feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of the songs were very sacharin and did not
Speaker 1: move the plot at all, and very just as a
Speaker 1: writer from a writer's perspective, like indulgent and like Tolkien
Speaker 1: needed an I'm sorry like they both of them needed editors.
Speaker 1: I think C. S. Lewis is better at editing himself
Speaker 1: because his books were like a little bit more for children.
Speaker 1: But like when they were sitting there, like at the
Speaker 1: Eagleman Child, the pub that they famously wrote, like their
Speaker 1: books at together, they should have edited. They're just like
Speaker 1: us writing books in a fucking coffee shop and a
Speaker 1: fucking guy. Yeah. Yeah, Tolkien and C. S Lewis sitting
Speaker 1: at their laptops across from each other, each with ice
Speaker 1: oat latte is being like, oh yeah, I'm thinking that
Speaker 1: like maybe Gimbly is going to have like an arc
Speaker 1: here and then and then C. S Lewis is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds great, bro, and then like do you want
Speaker 1: to go in the bathroom and each other all, hey,
Speaker 1: do you think that you can send this stuff to
Speaker 1: your agent? Like, oh, I don't have an agent, bro,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but like that is a kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, Hollywood, I wonder if they're CS Lewis, j R. R.
Speaker 1: Tolkien real person fan pic ship. Definitely, there's one thousand
Speaker 1: percent us. Yep, there is, Okay, one grade I have
Speaker 1: with Lord of the Rings, which is first side from
Speaker 1: the women the side from the back of the No women. Okay,
Speaker 1: first of all, it's very gay. Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 1: that obviously is very gay. Everyone's fighting over a piece
Speaker 1: of jewelry. Um, I love that, love that they really
Speaker 1: just go check out the s and sale. There's like
Speaker 1: always fifteen. But what the fuck does Saron even want
Speaker 1: with the ring? Like there's no there's nothing, there's no
Speaker 1: like specification about what it's going to do. When he
Speaker 1: gets it, it's just like he becomes more powerful. That's
Speaker 1: kind of whine. Cambellian narratives are often very flat and
Speaker 1: like like especially when it's like in action, but like
Speaker 1: it's like the same thing as we like we always
Speaker 1: talk about with Marvel movies. It's like they spend the
Speaker 1: whole movie looking for this thing that like you don't
Speaker 1: even really get why they need. The motivation is not
Speaker 1: necessarily there, and the villain is not that interesting because
Speaker 1: all he wants is power and immortality. And I guess
Speaker 1: it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. It's
Speaker 1: about the journey. It really is, um and and the
Speaker 1: the films are like the plots are really complex and
Speaker 1: yet extremely simple because they follow archetypes and I think
Speaker 1: it's a cock ring. I think Salaron is a huge
Speaker 1: cock and the ring will um adjust. I was going
Speaker 1: to say the ring famously adjusted size, and so if
Speaker 1: you put it around your keen um, that would actually
Speaker 1: be a really useful invention, like a metal adjustable cock ring. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: like how I feel like Hobbits probably have a lot
Speaker 1: of orgies in Hobbitant. Also, we have said this on
Speaker 1: the podcast before we need to go to New Zealand
Speaker 1: and go to Hobbiton. Someone needs to sponsor us to
Speaker 1: do this. We will do ads for whatever fucking New
Speaker 1: Zealand Board of Tourism, anyone, they are the borders even
Speaker 1: open in New Zealand. I don't care. They just like
Speaker 1: have they are they holding? Lord? You can you can
Speaker 1: put me in a barrel like the dwarves in the
Speaker 1: hobbit and send me down the river. I just want
Speaker 1: to go to Hobbiton. Yeah, and Lord will be there
Speaker 1: at at the edges, at the edges of the and
Speaker 1: she she's you know, she's in full eleven GARB and
Speaker 1: she's like, oh, do you think Lord likes Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings? Lord of the Rings? I mean she obviously
Speaker 1: I think that Lord of the Rings has to be
Speaker 1: integral to New Zealand like Kiwi culture, right, Like they're
Speaker 1: probably inextricably linked. So I would imagine that she is
Speaker 1: a Lord of the Rings fan, but she famously only
Speaker 1: watches a few movies a year. Has Lord ever uttered
Speaker 1: the words fool of a too? No, she hasn't, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: but she has shushed a lot of people, which Gandalf
Speaker 1: does do. This is what the whole podcast has been.
Speaker 1: I think and Sarmon are giving such x energy, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they so obviously used to date, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: and there was a bad breakup. Yeah, and Gandolf like
Speaker 1: you know, like really wants his like Joni Mitchell vinyl collection. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm retracting my earlier sting. Oh no, here's what it is, bitch,
Speaker 1: here's what it is. So I was gonna say I
Speaker 1: was going to retract my statement that Gandalf was like
Speaker 1: trans Elder because I was gonna say, like, no, Gandolf's
Speaker 1: gay because he and No they were excess and then
Speaker 1: Gandalf and Transition and and Sourmont has been a bitter
Speaker 1: bitch about it ever since. Yeah, it's giving homeop a
Speaker 1: bit it's giving, trans transporobic, transphobic gay. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: we just unlocked this bitch. How could you be transphobic
Speaker 1: and have a lace front like that? Like, come on,
Speaker 1: have you met any drag queens ever? Have you met RuPaul? Well,
Speaker 1: RuPaul's lace front is so, I mean, the best lace
Speaker 1: front of money money can buy. Who's your favorite Lord
Speaker 1: of the Rings villain? Probably the witch King of Angmar.
Speaker 1: He was pretty sick from the first movie to the end.
Speaker 1: You're actually a percent right forgive me, um, I would
Speaker 1: say in the words, in the words of Charlene, if
Speaker 1: you don't have any pronouns, I'm going to use the
Speaker 1: one that you look like, Oh my god, that's please
Speaker 1: don't follow. Don't don't follow anyways. Um. I think they
Speaker 1: were um a kind of transcendent villain that had so
Speaker 1: many different had, you know, an elevation onto the dragon
Speaker 1: that was really satiating and Gallum to me got repetitive
Speaker 1: and annoying. Saramon was queeny, but actually removed himself from
Speaker 1: a lot of the movie. He wasn't he was supposed
Speaker 1: to be. I'm sure you know this, Like a big
Speaker 1: part of the third film, Slash Book. We're in even
Speaker 1: after Um destroys the Ring, they have to go back
Speaker 1: to Eisngard to fight Saruman and take over Rising Guard.
Speaker 1: But to me, like, yeah, the witching of Angmar is
Speaker 1: like maybe the most boss as bitch of the villains.
Speaker 1: What about you, Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually throw
Speaker 1: out a little surprise here and let you know that
Speaker 1: maybe not my favorite, but I think in terms of performances,
Speaker 1: Benedict Cumberbatch of smileg actually eats in the Hobbit trilogy.
Speaker 1: I forgot that he did that. We have not really
Speaker 1: touched on the Hobbit trilogy much because it's bad. The
Speaker 1: first movie is actually really good. Well, when you know
Speaker 1: the story behind the Hobbit trilogy, it's actually really sad
Speaker 1: the way it all went down, And I would I
Speaker 1: would suggest I'm going to give like a very like
Speaker 1: truncated explainer on this, and if you want something that's
Speaker 1: a little more in depth, I would really recommend watching
Speaker 1: Lindsay Ellis's trio of video essays about the Hobbit on YouTube.
Speaker 1: But basically, The Hobbit was initially supposed to be two
Speaker 1: movies directed by Gamma del Toro, which would have been incredible,
Speaker 1: and they were going to be much more like truer
Speaker 1: to the books, like they were going to be really
Speaker 1: like for children, like have a like a distinctive visual
Speaker 1: style that was much more Del Toro than it was
Speaker 1: Peter Jackson and Lord of the Rings. And then they
Speaker 1: had already done two years of pre production on The
Speaker 1: Hobbit when Gammo del Toro was fired and they brought
Speaker 1: Peter Jackson into take over the movies and make them
Speaker 1: much more stylistically in line with Lord of the Ring
Speaker 1: and to reference Lord of the Rings much more, because
Speaker 1: you know, there's Um in the Hobbit, there's a necromancer who,
Speaker 1: like you find out, is actually into sky Is, but
Speaker 1: like it's kind of just like an afterthought in the books,
Speaker 1: and like they make it such a big plot in
Speaker 1: the movies and Um. There's also a lot of stories
Speaker 1: about how like when they were shooting the films, like
Speaker 1: it was originally supposed to be two and then they
Speaker 1: made the decision to make them three, but it happened
Speaker 1: while the movies were already shooting, and then none of
Speaker 1: the cast ever knew like which movie the scene they
Speaker 1: were shooting was supposed to go in. Um that a
Speaker 1: lot of the actors who played the dwarves were like
Speaker 1: really mistreated by the production company, and um it, actually
Speaker 1: the Hobbit had this whole political controversy in which like
Speaker 1: labor laws were written in New Zealand because of it.
Speaker 1: It's just like it was a huge mess and you
Speaker 1: can definitely feel it in those movies, which are like
Speaker 1: the first one is pretty good, the second one is
Speaker 1: good because of Benedict Cumberbatch's smile and if you go
Speaker 1: and look at any of the behind the scenes info
Speaker 1: of him doing the most and capture like it's obviously
Speaker 1: like kind of funny because he's crawling around on the floor,
Speaker 1: but like it's a good performance. And his scenes with
Speaker 1: Bilbo in the cavern are so good, and they have
Speaker 1: great chemistry obviously, like anyone who's ever watched the BBC
Speaker 1: Sherlock knows the ben Nick Coombrad and Martin Freeman have
Speaker 1: really good chemistry. But um, yeah, he's just a really
Speaker 1: fun villain. And I wish that we had gotten to
Speaker 1: see Gammo del Toro's version of the Hobbit. I also
Speaker 1: do love there's an animated movie of the Hobbit that
Speaker 1: I watched a lot when I was a kid that
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with. I didn't watch that either. There also,
Speaker 1: similarly is an animated version of the line The Witch
Speaker 1: and the Wardrobe. But I was obsessed and I was
Speaker 1: a good Oh my god, the Witch in that movie.
Speaker 1: It's with her little skull cat. So yeah, um, okay,
Speaker 1: we should do a Narnia episode honestly more nor it's
Speaker 1: too wholesome, that's honestly, like um. Something that I resent
Speaker 1: for no logistical reason, only for a personal one is
Speaker 1: that like Narnia and Middle Earth and the stories that
Speaker 1: come with them are extremely like family friendly stories, like
Speaker 1: because they were both very Christian and very oxford Ian
Speaker 1: and very like kind of conservative, like there were no
Speaker 1: women and there, you know, And I think that, like
Speaker 1: I I do think that the film franchise of The
Speaker 1: Lord Rings is like untouchable, Like I would not change
Speaker 1: a thing about it, aside for the fact that has
Speaker 1: no women and no people. But that's also why we
Speaker 1: have Game of Thrones, because the whole point of Game
Speaker 1: of Thrones is it's a deconstruction of these classical fantasy
Speaker 1: books where the women have no agency and everyone's like
Speaker 1: like really just and true and like good triumphs of evil,
Speaker 1: and you know, Game of Thrones is like such a
Speaker 1: subversion of that, and I think it's why it was
Speaker 1: so popular. But also like we we wouldn't have that
Speaker 1: if Lord of the Rings hadn't saved the way for
Speaker 1: you know, the mainstream success of fantasy, because we also
Speaker 1: can't forget that these movies were huge box office successes
Speaker 1: and one like a trillion oscars. They literally the third
Speaker 1: movie tied from most oscars ever awarded to a film
Speaker 1: with Titanic, and then after that Avatar, I believe. But um,
Speaker 1: you can't wait for Avatar the Way of Water, I know,
Speaker 1: um speaking of like future future stuff and like what
Speaker 1: what happens now to this franchise in mainstream media? Amazon
Speaker 1: is going to make a TV show about the stories
Speaker 1: of the Cima Realian I believe. I think it'll be
Speaker 1: extremely tough for them to build a mythology without referencing
Speaker 1: Peter Jackson's work, even though it looks it looks pretty
Speaker 1: stylistically different, and also like there's people of color and
Speaker 1: women and I love, Yeah, that'll that'll matter enough to me.
Speaker 1: I I although it already has created a lot, it
Speaker 1: has unearthed a lot of really ugly racism on line.
Speaker 1: I'm not looking forward to what that like, At least, thankfully,
Speaker 1: I'm not on the part of the Internet where there's
Speaker 1: any discourse about that happening, so thank god too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it fucking sucks that it's happening, and like you
Speaker 1: all are fucking racist. Yeah, And I think, honestly, Peter
Speaker 1: Jackson's like kind of greatest weakness was the level of
Speaker 1: detail in his textual awareness of the books, like he
Speaker 1: was a student of the appendices and like all the
Speaker 1: stories that came with the films. And even though the
Speaker 1: adaptation is as true as an adaptation can get in
Speaker 1: terms of trying to service the original fandom of the books,
Speaker 1: that that ultimately gave us, you know, some of the
Speaker 1: problems that we're talking about now in terms of what irscasting,
Speaker 1: but also like story wise, making it a little boring
Speaker 1: sometimes because what we find entertaining in terms of plot
Speaker 1: and character in the nineteen thirties is very different than
Speaker 1: what we find entertaining today. Well, that's why I'm very
Speaker 1: interested to see what this new era of Lord of
Speaker 1: the Rings media looks like telling different stories in that universe.
Speaker 1: And there is kind of a parallel to that happening
Speaker 1: with Game of Thrones, because you know, right around the
Speaker 1: same time that the new Lord of the Rings show
Speaker 1: comes out, we're getting a new Game of Throne series
Speaker 1: on HBO Max that similarly takes place in that universe,
Speaker 1: but a different time period. So I'm, I guess excited
Speaker 1: for this new era of you know, looking at these
Speaker 1: legacy fantasy properties and finding ways to tell expanded, more inclusive,
Speaker 1: and maybe more interesting stories in familiar worlds, maybe grounded
Speaker 1: in kind of contemporary sensibility more, you know, I think that,
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll finally get to see someone eat a
Speaker 1: hobbit hole. Yeah, Like the most contemporary thing about the
Speaker 1: film franchise is maybe its sense of er and how
Speaker 1: you know those jokes are still funny when we watch
Speaker 1: them now, yeah, exactly, or like touch me, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Like those are like moments that are
Speaker 1: still funny because the characters are built really nicely. But
Speaker 1: I shall not past talk about transphobia. I mean, well,
Speaker 1: I mean but talking to herself, That's what I was
Speaker 1: going to ask you, what does that mean in context
Speaker 1: of her as a trans elder. It's that it's why
Speaker 1: she you know, she's just she's like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: give my life. I'm gonna sacrifice my life for these
Speaker 1: hobbits and fight the ball rog and it's okay because
Speaker 1: I'll never pass. Yeah, because she's the moans not worth it.
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with the discussion on all
Speaker 1: things theme parks with Matt Rogers. Very excited to talk
Speaker 1: about Disney Universal six Flags and I'll be the virgin
Speaker 1: is I've only really been to two theme parks, so yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's going to be quite a roller coaster if
Speaker 1: you will. If you will, you can follow our Instagram
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Speaker 1: three to three pennants. That's three two three seven three
Speaker 1: six two six two three. I'm your co host, Fran Toronto.
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Speaker 1: a Virgin is an I Heart Radio production. Our producer
Speaker 1: is the Phoebe Unter, with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller,
Speaker 1: jess Cranchitch, and Nikkia to or until next week, Sionada Virgins.
Speaker 1: I passed the test. I will diminish and go into
Speaker 1: the west and remain. Let it be goad, and then
Speaker 1: they'd have to be slow quiet ta Marines. And she
Speaker 1: would kind of chant, and she chance a little more