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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Thursday, June nineteenth, Happy Juneteenth,

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Speaker 2: and we have a stack night with incredible headlines and

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Speaker 2: even greater guests. I'm so excited for tonight, So pull

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Speaker 2: up a proverbial chair. If you're just joining us, please

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Speaker 2: call us anytime eight eight eight three one crime, or

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Speaker 2: you could always hit us up on our socials at

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Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram, and at

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Speaker 2: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. But listen, we have the

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Speaker 2: best guest. We have Brian Enton, who's joining us from

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Speaker 2: News Nation. He's the senior correspondent there and if you

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Speaker 2: haven't been following him, he has been knee deep in

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Speaker 2: some of the biggest cases we've been talking about now

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Speaker 2: for weeks. So he's here to talk about Coburger and

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Speaker 2: Gabby Petito, so he has his night cut out for him.

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Speaker 2: And also later in the show, author an expert and

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Speaker 2: activist is going to join us for Juneteenth and share

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Speaker 2: some stories that are not being covered nearly enough in

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Speaker 2: the black and brown community. And his name is doctor William.

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Speaker 2: So before we go any further, I'm Stephanie Leidecker, I

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Speaker 2: head of KAT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts

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Speaker 2: and documentaries and I get to do that daily with

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Speaker 2: crime analyst Body move In and of course crime producer

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and ladies. I even so excited to get

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Speaker 2: to this night. I'm so happy that Brian is here,

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Speaker 2: and we have so much.

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Speaker 3: To get through, I know, and I'm a little nervous.

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Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie. Why are you nervous just because

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Speaker 3: it's news Daddy?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Is that?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 2: Where does the name news Daddy come from? I guess

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Speaker 2: we'll have to ask Brian.

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Speaker 3: And I don't even know he knows about it, and

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Speaker 3: I don't want to bring it up and I don't

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Speaker 3: want to embarrass him. But all the true crime girlies

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Speaker 3: basically really trust Brian. It's not a romantic thing, it's not,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's just we trust him. He's like in

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Speaker 3: all the cases that we're obsessed with, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: myself included, he hasn't looks down right. That's so true.

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Speaker 3: He's he's always there. He's always in every trial. He

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Speaker 3: has the breaking news. He's news daddy, and he's.

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Speaker 2: Really boots on the ground and gives it to you

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Speaker 2: straight and really cares.

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Speaker 5: You know that.

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Speaker 3: And I'm in the complete with the utmost respect. It's

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Speaker 3: not a degrading thing at all when I say that,

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Speaker 3: like it's but I'm nervous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my goodness. I've never seen you nervous before, Courtney.

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Speaker 2: Are you nervous as well? I'm excited.

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Speaker 4: I just think his coverage is amazing and burrough and measured,

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Speaker 4: and I'm excited to speak with him.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Listen, there's lots of cases to get through,

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Speaker 2: so of course, Karen Reid, there's been some new developments

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Speaker 2: there will unpack that. And then this Brian Coburger case,

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Speaker 2: the college murders in Idaho. There's been so many new

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Speaker 2: developments that I'm so excited to bring him into the convo. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So the first thing to bring everybody kind of up

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Speaker 3: to speed is there was a hearing yesterday. There were

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Speaker 3: basically two hearings. One was open to the public, and

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Speaker 3: that was the hearing to determine if there would be

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Speaker 3: a continuance, which is a delay in the trial. You know,

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Speaker 3: the defense is basically saying that, well, not that basically

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Speaker 3: saying they are saying that, you know, they have an

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Speaker 3: incomplete review of all the discovery. There's so much evidence

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Speaker 3: they have to go through from you know, the state,

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Speaker 3: they have to go through everything. There's ongoing life history

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Speaker 3: and mitigation that they have to do, and it's taking a.

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Speaker 2: Really long time.

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Speaker 3: Expert witnesses haven't yet been identified for certain topics they

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Speaker 3: want to cover, and you know, prejudicial pre trial publicity,

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Speaker 3: you know, specifically the dateline. You know that we've been

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Speaker 3: talking about the week from dat line. And of course

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Speaker 3: there's new concerns about a James Patterson book that's coming

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Speaker 3: out sixteen days before jury selection.

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Speaker 2: And unique to that, it's not so much that there's

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Speaker 2: a book coming out, but unique to that might be

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Speaker 2: that it's been reported that he spoke to grand jury,

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Speaker 2: which you know, that's that's unusual, right.

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Speaker 3: It is not very unusual. So there's you know, I

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Speaker 3: think I think there's legitimate concerns. But Judge Hipler, he's

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Speaker 3: a great judge, and he heard all the arguments from

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Speaker 3: the defense. He has not ruled yet, but he did

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Speaker 3: indicate that he's I feel like he indicated he was

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Speaker 3: leaning toward keeping the trial date as is, you know,

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Speaker 3: August eleventh, he has We have not got the ruling yet.

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Speaker 3: Of course, it will be uploaded to the docket and

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Speaker 3: we'll all know about it, but it has not gotten

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Speaker 3: it yet. I would expect to have it by the

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Speaker 3: end of next week.

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Speaker 2: And just and of case you're just joining us and

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Speaker 2: are not super familiar with this case. You know this

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Speaker 2: this tragedy in Idaho. Former PhD criminology student Brian Koberger

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Speaker 2: has been accused of fatally stabbing for University Idaho students

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Speaker 2: on November thirteenth and twenty twenty two. So it's been

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Speaker 2: several years now. Obviously it's a death sentence trial. This

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Speaker 2: trial is set to begin in August, and there have

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Speaker 2: been several delays along the way. At one point there

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Speaker 2: was a delay because the trial would have been sort

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Speaker 2: of across the street from a school, and they were

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Speaker 2: concerned that with all the press that would intermingle with

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Speaker 2: the students and that might get confusing. So they pushed

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Speaker 2: really small areas. It's a very small area, and an

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Speaker 2: area by the way that's been really through it. You know,

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Speaker 2: they've experienced extraordinary loss and it's brought a ton of

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Speaker 2: attention to the area. But you know, it's not the

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Speaker 2: kind of attention that anybody really wants, so it's complicated.

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Speaker 2: And then obviously the trial was moved. They moved locations

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Speaker 2: because the judge had ruled that Brian Coober may not

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Speaker 2: have gotten a fair trial right in the backyard where

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Speaker 2: the murders occurred, given all the press. So that's another delay,

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Speaker 2: and it's been delayed, delay, delay, all that. To be said,

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Speaker 2: this could cause another delay. I didn't think this stuff,

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Speaker 2: And again I defer it's a very different thing when

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Speaker 2: you're trying a death sentence trial, but experts things like that.

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Speaker 2: I feel like at this point that should be a

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Speaker 2: little locked up. I understand the new information, if there

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Speaker 2: was a leak or if there's new details to be

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Speaker 2: had about another perpetrator potentially, well, well there is.

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Speaker 4: And that's the other hearing that's been going on is

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Speaker 4: the defense attorney Ann Taylor is saying that there is

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Speaker 4: an alternate suspect that she wants to present, and this

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Speaker 4: is the hearing that has been not open to the public,

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Speaker 4: So we really don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 2: But that would be a huge right turn.

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Speaker 4: Saying somebody else did it, or specifically, what she's saying

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Speaker 4: is two people potentially did it, there were two perpetrators

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Speaker 4: and trying to frame the accused Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 2: So can we maybe ask the great Brian Enton, who

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Speaker 2: is with us to weigh in on some of this stuff.

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Speaker 2: We have young person who's been boots on the ground.

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Speaker 2: Obviously we made the podcast, we're making the doc. But

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Speaker 2: all that to be said, Brian has been there and

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Speaker 2: we've been following his coverage on all of these stories,

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Speaker 2: but specifically in Idaho it's been close to his heart. Brian,

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Speaker 2: can you hear us?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, thank you guys so much for having me here,

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Speaker 6: of course. Yeah, you guys are so nice. I'm nervous now.

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Speaker 5: You talked me up so.

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Speaker 2: Much, got just for you. I've literally never seen body nervous.

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Speaker 2: So she's literally a little blush right now. So it's beautiful,

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Speaker 2: and that is because we all follow your work and

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Speaker 2: you know, it's really it's really important stuff, and you

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Speaker 2: make it very understandable and you do it with kindness

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Speaker 2: and very ethically, and it really shows. So we're really

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Speaker 2: grateful to have you here. Brian Coberger's case is top

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Speaker 2: of mind and you were so close to it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we should start there. Yeah, let's start there. So

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Speaker 3: let's let's just dig right in. What about this case?

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Speaker 3: This is body by the way, what about this case

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Speaker 3: sticks out to you like the most? Why do you

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Speaker 3: think we're all so fascinated by this case?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? No, I was just saying, I just got back

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Speaker 6: from Idaho. I was there for the hearing yesterday, right,

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Speaker 6: But you asked what I think you know why people

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Speaker 6: are so obsessed with this case. I think it's just

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Speaker 6: because it was these innocent college kids, and we can

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Speaker 6: all relate to either being in college or having kids

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Speaker 6: in college, and just you know, the mystery of it

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Speaker 6: all in the beginning, when when there was you know,

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Speaker 6: no one knew who it was, and everyone was just

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Speaker 6: on edge for you know, more than a month, and

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Speaker 6: I think everybody just got everybody really amped up and

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Speaker 6: just so invested in it. And then learning more about

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Speaker 6: the victims and you just feel so terrible for them.

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Speaker 6: I mean, they were all such great kids, right, Yes,

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Speaker 6: different dreams and nice parents, and it's hard not to

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Speaker 6: really just sort of get pulled into the whole thing,

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Speaker 6: you know, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Do, And like you know, I mean they were they

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Speaker 3: were they were going to bed at their most vulnerable

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Speaker 3: in this like monster comes in, right, And I think

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Speaker 3: that as women, right, I think we're all just basically

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Speaker 3: terrified of of that kind of thing and maybe somehow

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Speaker 3: put ourselves in those positions and we know we I

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Speaker 3: don't know, there's something there with it that I don't

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Speaker 3: I don't exactly know what it is. But every one

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Speaker 3: of my friends, every single one of my friends, they're

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Speaker 3: all women, are obsessed with this case.

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Speaker 2: Ever, say one of them, Yeah, I think too. It's

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Speaker 2: just the idea of it being somebody without a close connection, right,

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Speaker 2: given that it's not somebody who's obviously in an orbit

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Speaker 2: or you know, we cover so many stories and it's

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Speaker 2: you know, money, revenge, there's you know, there's some motive

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Speaker 2: connected tissue that allows for there to be a motive,

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Speaker 2: and this one being so nebulous in that regard, I

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Speaker 2: think has just made it a little extra scary for everybody.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: And there's been no more to established yet either, too,

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Speaker 3: So we're still waiting for that, right, We're still waiting

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Speaker 3: to find out what the motive was.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think too, like early on, you know,

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Speaker 6: the fact that the victims, the kids, were so active

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Speaker 6: on social media right away we got a sense of

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Speaker 6: who they were. You know, there were so many videos

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Speaker 6: of them, and I don't know, I think people just

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Speaker 6: connected to them. And and the fact that it was

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Speaker 6: just this little quaint college town in Idaho where nothing

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Speaker 6: ever happens. It's like the safest place in the world,

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Speaker 6: you know. It just I don't know, I think it

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Speaker 6: was just it was just such a mystery.

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Speaker 3: It's a tragedy that we just can't wrap our head around. Now,

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Speaker 3: let me let me ask you the real tea. All right,

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Speaker 3: this door dash footage or the door dash driver. You

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Speaker 3: recently reported on it, We did as well, and you know,

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Speaker 3: we kind of hesitated.

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Speaker 2: We weren't sure.

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Speaker 3: You know, we were actually one of the first to

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Speaker 3: report on it to be you know, to fluff our

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Speaker 3: chest a little bit. But how how how do you

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Speaker 3: feel about that that story? Like did you did you?

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Speaker 3: Did you hesitate?

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Speaker 2: Were you?

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Speaker 3: Were you confident in it? What do you think it

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Speaker 3: means moving forward for the trial? Is it going to

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Speaker 3: affect anything? I have a lot of questions. Yes, and

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Speaker 3: that was a lot to fire you you at once.

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Speaker 2: But how does I feel about it?

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Speaker 6: I'm normally pretty careful with things, kind of like you guys,

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Speaker 6: like you were saying. I mean, there are things that

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Speaker 6: I'll hear or even that i'll confirm that I won't

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Speaker 6: necessarily report, just because I try to be careful and respectful,

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Speaker 6: and you know, I only want to put stuff out

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Speaker 6: there that I know is like one hundred percent correct.

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Speaker 6: I don't want to do anything to you know, compromise

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Speaker 6: the trial coming up or you know, I'm just really

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Speaker 6: really careful about those things.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: So, But in terms of the the door dash I Rember.

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Speaker 6: You know, we knew that there was this door dress

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Speaker 6: driver for a while. It showed up in the in

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Speaker 6: some of the court documents, you know, more than a

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Speaker 6: year ago, and that she was identified as MMMM, and

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Speaker 6: we were trying to find her. I was trying to

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Speaker 6: find her in Moscow for a while and I and

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Speaker 6: I never could.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think everybody guy too.

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Speaker 6: There's so many door dash drivers and like people have,

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Speaker 6: you know, do it as a side hustle, and it's

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Speaker 6: like it was so hard. I remember, it was like

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Speaker 6: going into different hotels in Moscow and be like, do

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Speaker 6: you guys know, like who the doorg has? You know,

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Speaker 6: everybody kind of knows everybody there, And I thought maybe

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Speaker 6: I remember one time I finally got a lead. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 6: like I know who it is, but then it didn't

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Speaker 6: turn out being the right person. So anyway, we've known

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Speaker 6: that this person like exists and that they delivered that

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Speaker 6: she delivered door dash at four am, which is like

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Speaker 6: about ten minutes before the murders, but never that you know,

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Speaker 6: she claimed to have actually seen Brian Coberger and parked

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Speaker 6: next to Brian Coberger. Both of those things like are

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Speaker 6: huge if true.

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Speaker 4: We are pins and needles and cannot wait to hear

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Speaker 4: the rest of this after the break. Also, we're going

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Speaker 4: to have author and activist doctor Williams join us for Juneteenth.

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Speaker 4: Keep it here on True Crime tonight.

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Speaker 2: We have Brian Enton here. You'll know him of course

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Speaker 2: from News Nation. His incredible on the ground reporting in

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Speaker 2: the Brian Coberger Idaho College murders has really been next

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Speaker 2: level as well as her coverage Brian, I know you

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Speaker 2: can hear us in the Gabby Patito case, which we

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Speaker 2: want to get to as well. But back to the

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Speaker 2: Idaho College murders. If you're just joining us, you'll know

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Speaker 2: that PhD student Brian Coberger has been accused of fatally

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Speaker 2: stabbing and killing for Idaho College students, and that trial

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Speaker 2: is this summer. It's a death sentenced trial. The stakes

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Speaker 2: are very high and it's really getting controversial at this point. So, Brian,

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Speaker 2: I know, we were just talking about the door dash

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Speaker 2: footage and its relevance. And I also had some questions

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Speaker 2: about the hearing you were just at yesterday. Do you

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Speaker 2: want to talk DoorDash or the hearing?

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Speaker 6: You know, if it's true what this DoorDash driver saying

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Speaker 6: that she actually saw Brian Coburger at the house just

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Speaker 6: you know, minutes before the murders, and she said that

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Speaker 6: she parked next to him, which I found to be

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Speaker 6: really interesting because more DoorDash drivers park in the front

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Speaker 6: of the house or in the driveway, or they pull

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Speaker 6: over and put their flashers on right in front, which

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Speaker 6: would mean if what she's saying is true, you know,

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Speaker 6: did Brian Coberger just park right in front of the house. So,

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Speaker 6: you know, I think we're just gonna have to wait

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Speaker 6: and see. The whole thing is strange the way it

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Speaker 6: came out of this body camera video. You know, the

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Speaker 6: DoorDash driver got pulled over for biotag and the suspicion

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Speaker 6: of Dui, and that's sort of when she spilled all

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Speaker 6: this to the cop last year. So I take it

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Speaker 6: kind of with a grain of salt at this point,

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Speaker 6: but it's true. I think it'll be a big deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, same, And chances are, you know, the prosecution maybe

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Speaker 2: even and the defense might know about it. You know,

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Speaker 2: whether we knowing us knowing about it now is is

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Speaker 2: right or wrong? Who's to say, But obviously it's being

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Speaker 2: covered so widely. You know, I'm so curious because you've

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Speaker 2: been in the courtroom, including just yesterday at the hearing

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Speaker 2: that it's a very important hearing talking about getting another

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Speaker 2: delay in the trial. What is it like? You know,

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Speaker 2: how does the accuse Brian Coburger. Is there anything you

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Speaker 2: can share about how he seems?

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Speaker 6: It's really weird being in the courtroom, like just having

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Speaker 6: covered from the beginning and knowing everything that the victim's

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Speaker 6: families have been through, and especially in Moscow, like I

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Speaker 6: it was such a small court room there, you like

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Speaker 6: four or five feet away from him, but yeah, I

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Speaker 6: saw him again. Yesterday in court. You know, he in

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Speaker 6: the beginning he was much more like stone cold. I

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Speaker 6: felt like when I first sawhim in Pennsylvania when he

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Speaker 6: got arrested, and then when he first got back to Moscow,

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Speaker 6: it's kind of like he's gotten a little more like comfortable.

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Speaker 6: It's always a little weird because you know, we get

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Speaker 6: in there early, and he's in there just with his

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Speaker 6: lawyers and the judge. He usually doesn't come in for

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Speaker 6: like ten minutes. Yeah, And I always just find it

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Speaker 6: weird watching him because he kind of liked has small

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Speaker 6: talk for like ten minutes with the lawyers and they

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Speaker 6: kind of like will like laugh together, and they'll kind

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Speaker 6: of like put their hands on his shoulders, and it's

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Speaker 6: like this very like kind of almost skiddy, like just

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Speaker 6: fun talk before the hearing starts. And I always just

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Speaker 6: find that to just be so weird when you think

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Speaker 6: about what he's accused of, and you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Like you think, even just from an objects perspective, you

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Speaker 2: would just kind of be very serious and sullen because

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Speaker 2: you know, it's such a terrible thing everyone's there to

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Speaker 2: go through.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I think maybe this the you know, if the

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Speaker 6: strategy there and granted there's no jury obviously yet, but

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Speaker 6: I've seen this in other cases, like sometimes lawyers will

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Speaker 6: try to humanize their client if there's someone accused of

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Speaker 6: something so brutal, as when you see the lawyers like

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Speaker 6: touching him on the shoulder and you seem smiling, you're

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Speaker 6: like kind of show I think they're thinking maybe it

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Speaker 6: shows like a different side of him, like if the

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Speaker 6: cameras are on that kind of thing. That's just my theory.

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Speaker 6: I don't know if that's what they're doing, but it's

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Speaker 6: always just kind of weird seeing that and also just

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Speaker 6: kind of staring at him and knowing what he's like

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Speaker 6: accused of.

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Speaker 2: I have a question too about the dad. So, Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger's dad, for whatever reason, sits in my head, you know,

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Speaker 2: it like haunts my sleep somehow, and you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's for two reasons. One, it seems like from what

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Speaker 2: we know we've been able to glean and jump in

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Speaker 2: if you've heard differently, you know, his parents seem really nice.

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Speaker 2: You know, his dad loved him and they stand by him.

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Speaker 2: And of course Brian Coberger, the accused, clams his innocence,

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Speaker 2: it appears his family has been standing by him. As well.

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Speaker 2: You know, we always see that crossy trip after the

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Speaker 2: murders when Brian Coburger was returning home for the holiday

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Speaker 2: and his dad was, you know, driving with him across

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Speaker 2: multiple states, and we've all seen that body cam footage

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Speaker 2: of them getting pulled over. You know, you always wonder

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Speaker 2: what was that car ride, Like, you know, if if

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Speaker 2: in fact he is guilty, was there a confession. If

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Speaker 2: he's innocent, is was dad you know, at all clewed in?

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Speaker 2: It's every parent's worst nightmare, right And now we know,

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Speaker 2: based on this date line leak that or the dateline

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Speaker 2: information that we've seen very recently, that hours after the

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Speaker 2: murders he called Dad for extended periods of time. Do

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Speaker 2: you make anything of that? Have you seen the family

364
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Speaker 2: at all?

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Speaker 6: So the only time I saw them in court in Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 6: right after he got arrested, they showed up to his

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Speaker 6: first appearance. I actually went to their house right at

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Speaker 6: like I got a tip about the arrest and I

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Speaker 6: like raced to Pennsylvania before it was kind of widely reported.

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Speaker 6: And they lived in this like gated community kind of

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Speaker 6: in the mountains, like in the Poconos. And I still

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Speaker 6: feel like kind of shady telling the story.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Like basically, this lady on Twitter texted me and

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Speaker 6: it was or messaged me and it was like, I

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Speaker 6: actually live in the same neighborhood as them. If you

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Speaker 6: meet me at the gas station, I'll bring you in

378
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Speaker 6: the neighborhood. So I met her and she brought me in,

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Speaker 6: and I was just very aggressive in that moment because

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Speaker 6: he had just been arrested and like, these were the

381
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Speaker 6: parents and he was arrested at that house. It's very dark,

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Speaker 6: like each house is on like an acre and it's

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Speaker 6: it's very country and there wasn't like street lights. It

384
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Speaker 6: was very dark when I got in there, and I

385
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Speaker 6: went up to their door and the whole front door

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Speaker 6: was shattered because the police had busted in, so it

387
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Speaker 6: was still shattered. And I knocked on the door and

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Speaker 6: I videoed it and like they just yelled like go away,

389
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Speaker 6: go away, And I put that video out and I

390
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Speaker 6: got like a lot of heat for which kind of

391
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Speaker 6: looking back, I do feel kind of bad because it

392
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Speaker 6: was like, you know, they're not you know, they're obviously

393
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Speaker 6: not like a few killers. They're just his parents.

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Speaker 2: Get their neighborhood.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So I felt a little guilty about it, but

396
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Speaker 6: you just never know, Like a lot of times you'll

397
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Speaker 6: go to people's doors and like they will want to talk,

398
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,719
Speaker 6: you know, and so unless you try. But that's the

399
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Speaker 6: only time I've seen them at the door. And then

400
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Speaker 6: also in court in Pennsylvania. They haven't been to Idaho.

401
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 6: I know through sources, they haven't visited him in person.

402
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Speaker 6: They've talked to him on the phone, but they've never

403
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Speaker 6: gone to visit him in person. I from from the

404
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:21,959
Speaker 6: sources that I have, like, I think they're having some

405
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,919
Speaker 6: financial problems, and so you know, money to get out

406
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:28,640
Speaker 6: there is kind of an issue, and money to get

407
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Speaker 6: out there during the trials is going to be an issue.

408
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Speaker 6: So you know, I feel for them. I mean, there's

409
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Speaker 6: there's never been any evidence connecting them to any of

410
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Speaker 6: their you knows.

411
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Speaker 2: And by the way, if my son was accused of something,

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Speaker 2: or my loved one is accused of something, or my brother,

413
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Speaker 2: I would want you to knock on my door so

414
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Speaker 2: I can scream that from the rooftops. Right. You want

415
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Speaker 2: to get the word out because if my you know,

416
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Speaker 2: family member didn't do it, then there's somebody still at large,

417
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Speaker 2: you know, So you have to sort of give them

418
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Speaker 2: the platform at the bare minimum. Yeah, you have to try.

419
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Speaker 5: You have to always try.

420
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Speaker 6: That's why, I mean I'm not always comfort doing that.

421
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 6: And also like victims too, like family members of victims,

422
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:04,639
Speaker 6: you always have to be so careful. But you know,

423
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Speaker 6: a lot of times people want to share their stories,

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Speaker 6: so you just you kind of have to like go

425
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Speaker 6: into that zone where it's not so comfortable, but you

426
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Speaker 6: just kind of make yourself try.

427
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Speaker 2: Well, you do such a.

428
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Speaker 3: Good job at it, like you I'm sure you already

429
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Speaker 3: know this, but you're very respected in the true crime community,

430
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,680
Speaker 3: like your coverage. Your coverage is something that we kind

431
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Speaker 3: of rely on for a lot of things. Yeah, and

432
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Speaker 3: so you do a good job. I mean I think

433
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Speaker 3: you do.

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Speaker 6: I really try. I mean I try to be respectful

435
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,480
Speaker 6: as much as I can. And just like you know,

436
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 6: at the end of the day, you have to be

437
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 6: able to sleep at night. And so it's like, I

438
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 6: don't ever want to do anything to make like a

439
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,280
Speaker 6: victim's family their situation worse or them feel worse, you know.

440
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's something that we always struggle with, you know,

441
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,199
Speaker 3: in this job, right, It's it's hard, it's hard, but

442
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 3: it's something that has to be done. I mean, people

443
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,880
Speaker 3: need to know these kinds of things. So I think,

444
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,960
Speaker 3: I just you do a great job. But I think

445
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 3: the sister, though Brian's sister knew something was going on.

446
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 3: I mean just from reading every one and every doc

447
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 3: that's been published by the court kind of gives us

448
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 3: that impression. And I think I think that's probably why

449
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 3: she didn't go to the first hearing in Pennsylvania.

450
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,440
Speaker 2: Meaningful it could be and I thinks correct, yeah.

451
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think Dateline they reported that I think

452
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 6: one of the sisters was suspicious, and I know, like

453
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 6: one of the sisters lost her job, which I reported

454
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 6: on because of like just you know who her brother was,

455
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 6: so and it's been difficult for them. I mean, I'd

456
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,399
Speaker 6: imagine there were some weird things like you know, him

457
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 6: wearing the gloves and taking the trash out, all the

458
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 6: weird things that were happening at the parents' house. Maybe

459
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 6: one of the sisters thought something was up, you.

460
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,240
Speaker 2: Know, well, and the knife got delivered to their home.

461
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,919
Speaker 6: Yeah that too, Yeah, right, yeah, right. I think because

462
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 6: I think what they have to figure out is a

463
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 6: lot of this stuff was was was charged on, Like

464
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,199
Speaker 6: the family Amazon account. So I think that's one of

465
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 6: the reasons that the family is going to have to

466
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 6: testify to basically be like, are you the one who

467
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 6: ordered the knife? Are you the one who did visited

468
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,639
Speaker 6: that way? When they say no, they can kind of

469
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 6: narrow it down to, you know what it must have been, Brian.

470
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 2: Right, brutal, Like even just as a sister, you know,

471
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: I have brothers. I couldn't imagine anything harder than having

472
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 2: to testify in a way that might harm a family member,

473
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 2: you know, even even one that is being accused of

474
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 2: something so vicious. Hopefully you don't you know, you can't

475
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 2: assume that that's accurate. Tough stuff. Yeah, really, what do

476
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,679
Speaker 2: we expect next? What's your Do you have any predictions

477
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:26,680
Speaker 2: you want to share with us?

478
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 6: Well, you know, so the hearing yesterday, the judge pretty

479
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 6: much indicated that he doesn't want to delay the trial.

480
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 6: He didn't issue the final order like you said, but

481
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 6: he I think it's not going to get delayed. So

482
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 6: we might not even have another hearing until jury selection,

483
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 6: which is the beginning of August. And then the fact

484
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 6: is supposed to be a three month trial, I mean

485
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 6: actually three months, Yeah, three months and you've got the

486
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,200
Speaker 6: families getting Airbnbs, and the Coburgers are supposed to be there,

487
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,120
Speaker 6: So it's going to be really really intense, I think.

488
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 6: And I think there's there's just been this gag order,

489
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 6: and even though you know, leaks have come out in

490
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 6: the eight line episode and other scoops that people have had,

491
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 6: I think there's still so much we don't know that

492
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 6: the prosecution has. That's just because we haven't had access

493
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,080
Speaker 6: to most of the documents. Like, I think there's going

494
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 6: to be just be a lot of bombshells during the trial,

495
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 6: like the stuff that just we haven't heard yet.

496
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 3: I do too, I absolutely do. I mean there has

497
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 3: to be. I mean I think I think the door

498
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,159
Speaker 3: dash would have been one, but now that we know

499
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 3: about it, it's not really I mean, I think we

500
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 3: all we always suspected, right sluice out there. We've always

501
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: suspected that the DoorDash driver saw him, and that's why

502
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 3: she was like the informant, basically like the protected witness,

503
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 3: you know, because it really puts her in danger if

504
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,480
Speaker 3: her name is out there. And so I think I

505
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 3: think that was going to be one of the bombshells.

506
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 2: But now that we already.

507
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 6: Did you know her dad was murdered, her husband I'm sorry, Yes, terrible, terrible,

508
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 6: terrible prosecutor for Coburger he did. Yes.

509
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 3: Coming up, Brian Nton is going to fill us in

510
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 3: on a major k he's directly involved with. Author and

511
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 3: activist doctor Jhuro Williams joined us for Juneteenth. Stay tuned

512
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: right here through Grime tonight.

513
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 2: We have been talking about the Brian Coburger case in

514
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: the Idaho college murders, and Brian, we're just going to

515
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: jump right in because there's so many cases that we

516
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: kind of want to dump on you. We definitely want

517
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: to still get to Gaba Patito, but I also know

518
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: you've been following so closely the Minnesota case and the

519
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: tragedy that happened there, and of course the search for

520
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: Travis Decker, and you know those are both real time

521
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: breaking stories. So we want to make sure we hit

522
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: that first. Minnesota you've been on so closely.

523
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I was there for the whole man hunt. I

524
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 6: went there on Saturday right after it happened, and was

525
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 6: there was crazy with the guy on the run, and

526
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 6: you know, I went out to we were out in

527
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 6: the country like an hour outside Minneapolis, near where his

528
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 6: house was, where they had like ten swat teams and

529
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 6: they closed the whole area down, and people thought maybe

530
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 6: he ran to Canada, but then we thought that he was,

531
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 6: that he was still in that area, and it was crazy.

532
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 6: I was out there. He got he got caught just

533
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 6: like a mile from his from his house. And it's

534
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 6: just awful. I mean, just the you know, the poor,

535
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 6: the lawmakers, I mean Representative Hortman, the woman who was

536
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 6: shot and killed along with her husband. It's just a terrible,

537
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 6: terrible story. And then the senator, the state senator who

538
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 6: was shot nine times and survived, and his wife was

539
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 6: shot eight times. This guy was dressed as a cop

540
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 6: and shined We found out that when he got to

541
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 6: the door, he said police, police, and he and he

542
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 6: had that creepy latex mask on and he shined the

543
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 6: flashlight and did you guys see that mask, by the way.

544
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it literally keeps me up at night. It's the

545
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: scariest image imaginable, frankly.

546
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 6: And he shined the flashlight in their eyes so they

547
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 6: couldn't really see him that well, and said police, police,

548
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 6: has been a robbery. And they let him in. And

549
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 6: then when he moved the flashlight. It was the wife

550
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 6: I found out who said, like, you're not a real

551
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 6: police officer, and that's kind of when, you know, when

552
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 6: he started shooting.

553
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 5: So there was.

554
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: This this is how I'm so glad you're here. We

555
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: want to like just you know, keep you forever at

556
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: this point. So you know, since then, you know, you

557
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 2: have reported on this as well, that there had been

558
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: a break in at the same location. We talked about

559
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: it a bit last night. You know, obviously these tragic

560
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 2: murders happened, and attempted murders happened. You know, people who

561
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: are working and dedicating their lives to politics and our government.

562
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 2: What do you make of this break in that happened

563
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 2: right after?

564
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, super weird. That was at the representative of Melissa

565
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 6: Hortman's house. I was out there. They had the whole

566
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 6: house boarded up because like there was this shootout between

567
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 6: the police and the suspect there and like it all

568
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 6: the windows got shot out, and it's just really just

569
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 6: nice suburban neighborhood. The neighbors were so nice, Like the

570
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 6: whole Minnesota nice slogan is totally true, Like keep you're

571
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 6: totally accurate. Like other crime scene you go to, They're like,

572
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 6: get out of our neighborhood. They these people were like

573
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 6: coming with their dogs and being so nice to the UK.

574
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,439
Speaker 6: So they had yes, yeah, exactly. So they had everything

575
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 6: boarded up because it was all shot out and uh,

576
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 6: and they finished prosing the crime scene, and then we

577
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 6: found out yesterday morning someone broke in through the back,

578
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 6: pulled off one of the boards, searched the whole house,

579
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 6: but didn't take anything, which I just think is so weird. Yeah,

580
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 6: Like I don't want to like be like get into

581
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 6: conspiracies or anything, but I'm just wondering, like what was

582
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 6: the motivation there? And so then today I tweeted some

583
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 6: video from one of the neighbors who I become friends

584
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 6: with sent it to me. They put this like fencing.

585
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 6: Now the police department came out and almost like you'd

586
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 6: see it like a riot, like we you see like

587
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 6: they put outside the White house like that really tall

588
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 6: metal caperraary fencing they've now put all the way around

589
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 6: the house like in this suburban neighborhood. It's so bizarre,

590
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 6: what a mess.

591
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: And you would have thought, you know, we had discussed

592
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 2: this a little bit last night because yes, you know,

593
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: I we're not going down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole,

594
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 2: I promise, But I get a little like I have

595
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: like a spidy sense that something doesn't add up. You know,

596
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 2: why would you go to an active crime scene and

597
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: break in knowing that this was like a very big scene.

598
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: People are probably paying attention. It seems like the one

599
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: place you wouldn't go, especially if you weren't going to

600
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: steal anything. That actually seems like they were rummaging or

601
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: looking for something specific or am I just being nuts?

602
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 6: No, everybody, I think you're right, And there's something weird

603
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 6: about this. This suspects Vance Belter, Like there's just you know,

604
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 6: you as a reporter, you get this sense. Like I

605
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 6: went to court for him too, I saw him in person,

606
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 6: and there's just like something doesn't add up. Like he

607
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 6: said he didn't have any money in court, needed a

608
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 6: public defender, and was only making five hundred dollars a week.

609
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 6: But then like his house is paid for, that's half

610
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 6: a million dollars, and he has seven vehicles that are

611
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 6: paid for. Yeah, and he had thirty thousand savors and

612
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 6: he've had money to buy the fake police cars.

613
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: And his wife took out forty pevens.

614
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 6: Yeah, so like I'm just like, wait, wait, how do

615
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 6: you not have any money? Like I don't. There's just

616
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 6: something weird with the family. And then he's got the

617
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 6: apartment that he saved a couple of nights from the city,

618
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 6: even though it's only like forty five minutes from his house,

619
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 6: but he doesn't have a job in the city. Like

620
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 6: and the weird roommate. I don't know if you guys

621
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 6: saw that roommate who kept doing the.

622
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 2: Interview roommate that I stop crying on the porch.

623
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, so like basically anybody who showed up, you'd do

624
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 6: an interview, which is like, you know, you did like

625
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 6: fifty interviews, and.

626
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 2: I know, I think I saw forty nine interviews.

627
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: We are all on the same page though, like we're

628
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 3: not like conspiracy theorists in any capacity.

629
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 2: But last night I'm like, this is weird. I was

630
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: like nervous and losing my mind. And if I was

631
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: the neighbors, you know, please tell your friend that's the

632
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: neighbor there, like you know, lock the doors. Something doesn't

633
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: seem right.

634
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think there's something more to this story. Like

635
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 6: I mean, like I said, not some crazy conspiracy, but

636
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 6: just like, is there someone else maybe involved? There's just

637
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 6: I don't know, something doesn't add up with the whole thing,

638
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 6: you know, I.

639
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: Think that's exactly right.

640
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 4: Speaking of Brian, wanted to ask you about Travis Decker.

641
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: So that's the case where he's a thirty one thirty

642
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: two year old father of three who's accused of murdering

643
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 4: his three daughters, and you have been there covering the

644
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 4: man hunt. Can you tell us what that's been like

645
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: and specifically I saw your TikTok today. Are people potentially

646
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 4: helping Travis Decker?

647
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, this has gone on way longer than I would

648
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 6: have expected, Like we're now in three weeks. I thought

649
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 6: maybe he took his own life initially just based on

650
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 6: like killing him. I mean, I mean he killed the

651
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 6: three kids. This awful, like strange, I mean, the stuffocation

652
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 6: just awful. And then though then there was this spotting

653
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 6: of you know, there was hikers out there that saw

654
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 6: another hiker a man who was trying to avoid them,

655
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 6: which is really weird, and the Sheriff's office put up

656
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 6: the helicopter and the guy was trying to avoid the helicopter,

657
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 6: which they never said for sure that that was Travis Decker,

658
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 6: but it just that made me think, Okay, maybe he

659
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 6: is alive. And then we the sheriff was on News

660
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 6: Nation yesterday and was just kind of weird, like he

661
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 6: didn't he didn't fully come out and say we think

662
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 6: he's getting help, but he said something like, well, people

663
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 6: shouldn't be sympathizing with him and you know, maybe helping him,

664
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 6: but wouldn't really elaborate, which behind them made me think

665
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 6: like do they know something behind the scenes, like someone

666
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 6: out there is aiding him and you know, staying on

667
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 6: the run. So that's a very very weird. Another very

668
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 6: very weird one.

669
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, And do you know much about his wife?

670
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: You know, our hearts obviously go out and you know, look,

671
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: this was a veteran, he served our country. He was

672
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan. He struggled with, you know, with some stuff

673
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: period the end, and our hearts are just so with

674
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: the mom who you know, she's been through unimaginable loss.

675
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 6: Oh well yeah, and she's got to go fund me

676
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 6: and she I mean, you look at the pictures of

677
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 6: her with her daughters and she's lost everything and it

678
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 6: is unimaginable and there was it doesn't sound like I mean,

679
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 6: he obviously had mental health issues and was homeless, but

680
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 6: from what I've learned, I mean, there were no red

681
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 6: flags that he ever wanted to hurt his daughters. So

682
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 6: you know, the mom had no idea that this, There

683
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 6: was no you know, this wasn't on her radar, and

684
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 6: he always returned them. He didn't have like overnight visitation,

685
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 6: but he had these, you know, like daytime visitations and

686
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 6: he always brought them back at the right time and

687
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 6: that kind of thing. So I think she was caught

688
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 6: totally off guard, and she It's interesting she hasn't really

689
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 6: like set off things about him, you know what I mean,

690
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 6: Like I think, I know she hasn't yet. No, not

691
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 6: that she feels bad for him, but like, I think

692
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 6: she's probably in shock. And also, like, clearly something just

693
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 6: went very wrong with this man.

694
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: You know exactly, he was struggling with mental health issues

695
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: and was not medicated correctly or was not keeping up

696
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 2: with his medication from what we've read, And again that

697
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: doesn't mean this is not an excuse for what he's done,

698
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: but he was struggling, and it does. It appears to

699
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: me too. Whenever I've seen interviews or anything, I've read

700
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: about her that she's you know, there's a part of

701
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: her that's probably a bit empathetic and then also really

702
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: mad because she was raising her hand and asking for help,

703
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: and you know, this was a help that needed to

704
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: be given. And I think that's why it's so important

705
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: that we're talking about it.

706
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if the male blood they found, like

707
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: on the tailgate of that truck, of Travis Jecker's truck,

708
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 3: they said it was male human blood, right, I kind

709
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: of wonder if that's something to do with want they

710
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: haven't found him yet, Like, and initially I thought, Okay,

711
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: he like attempts did something on himself, right, and like

712
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: chickened out, That's what I initially thought, and he ran

713
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: off into the woods or whatever to do it again.

714
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: I kind of wonder if maybe because you and I

715
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 3: kind of thought he might have killed himself. And I

716
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 3: kind of think maybe if I wonder if we were

717
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 3: right initially.

718
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 6: And see and we might I mean, we might still

719
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 6: be right. I mean, there could have just been someone

720
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 6: else hiking out there that you know the scar you know,

721
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 6: or yeah, or like committed a burglary or something and

722
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 6: is trying to hide from the point I mean, only thing.

723
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 3: Is though, is that the sheriff was so confident and

724
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 3: like the US Marshalls are in are involved in this,

725
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 3: they're like the best, you know, they're.

726
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 6: And I think that even called it the National Guard

727
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 6: too to help at one point.

728
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: That's right, they did.

729
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 6: So they obviously I think they probably know some things

730
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 6: that they're not saying publicly. And I think yesterday when

731
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 6: the sheriff said that about people you know, shouldn't be

732
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 6: sympathizing and how it's wanting to help him, like, I

733
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 6: just think he kind of slept a little. Maybe there's

734
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 6: something there.

735
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he might be right.

736
00:32:57,840 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if he tried to like maybe get

737
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 3: over or you know, maybe hitchhiking or something, trying to

738
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: get over to Canada.

739
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 6: Or something like that. I think you're absolutely right, yeah.

740
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: But not knowing it was, you know, this murderer, right,

741
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: just like a guy hitchhiking.

742
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, totally. And then a lot of the pictures he

743
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 6: looks like a you know, kind of normal guy. I mean,

744
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 6: you know you wouldn't.

745
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it depends on what picture you're looking at, though,

746
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 3: Like he looks different in every picture.

747
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: It's great.

748
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, I know you're right, and then they released three photos.

749
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 6: I don't know if you saw this where they like

750
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 6: manipulated the photos to show what he might look like.

751
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: Now, yes, that's unrecognizable in all three versions of his haircuts.

752
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: You know, right, right, it's kind of alarming. Actually, how bad?

753
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: How many frequent flyers do you have? It sounds like

754
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: you're on an airplane rushing to these stories day in

755
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 2: day out.

756
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I'm always. I'm on the plane like every

757
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 6: week pretty much. It's hard to stay on top of

758
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 6: them as I try to like just sort of pick

759
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 6: ones that I can really like invest a lot of

760
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 6: time into and just not hop.

761
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 5: In and lead.

762
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 6: You know, like there's something like hearing me for example,

763
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 6: like I never really covered Karen read just because I

764
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 6: didn't I was so busy with Idaho or I was

765
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 6: so busy with something else. It's like, I want to

766
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 6: really give it. If I'm gonna do it, I want

767
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 6: to like give it my all.

768
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 4: You know, well, you certainly do give it your all

769
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 4: and listen. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. Everybody.

770
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 4: Please follow him on x at Brian Enton or on

771
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 4: News Nation for the latest headlines. Brian gives it to

772
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 4: U Street and knows everything.

773
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming, Brian, and yeah, we still have

774
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,879
Speaker 2: so much more to get through. We didn't even get

775
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: to get by Petita with Brian Entin, so still do

776
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: have to have him back. She's gonna have to join

777
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 2: us back. And we also have author and activist doctor

778
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: Williams is here to kind of shed some light on

779
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: some of the black and brown cases that are not

780
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: getting nearly enough attention. Yeah, so, Courtney, we have a call,

781
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 2: We have a talkback right now. Should we run to that.

782
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 2: Let's go to the caller who's hanging on the line, Kristin.

783
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, Hill, I'm so disappointed.

784
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 7: I wanted to tell Brian that my True crime podcast discord. Uh,

785
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 7: we call him news Daddy, but he's not there, so

786
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 7: I'm going.

787
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 2: Oh, but he's listening. He's listening to you. So you

788
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: say it loud, say it clear. We will make sure

789
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 2: he hears.

790
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 6: It, news Daddy.

791
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 7: My question is, do you guys think that there could

792
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 7: be a connection between Ted Bundy's Kyomega murders and the

793
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 7: Idaho four because there are a lot of similarities.

794
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,719
Speaker 2: They're sure are We were actually just doing a bit

795
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: of a deep dive in this we were kind of

796
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: doing a bit of a comparison, and this is you're

797
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: kind of in our heads a little bit, because I mean, look,

798
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger was a PhD student, So if you're studying criminology,

799
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 2: of course you're going to study some of these big

800
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: cases and frankly these big killers like Bundy, et cetera.

801
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: But there does seem to be some crossover. Is it

802
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: a copycat of sorts?

803
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: Well, and you know you have Kyomega, right, the Kyomega thing,

804
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 3: And then I just I haven't really dug too far

805
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: into this, but I've been hearing something that I didn't

806
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: know about Ted Bundy, and that's he said something to

807
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 3: one of his victims, something like I'm.

808
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: Here to help.

809
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I don't remember the context in which this

810
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: was told to me, so I need to go and

811
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 3: revisit it. But I yeah, something along those lines. Have

812
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 3: you heard that?

813
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 4: I also, you know, I think it's such a great question,

814
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 4: and listen, we don't know. Brian Coburger is accused has

815
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 4: not yet stood trial for murdering the four poor students

816
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 4: at the University of Idaho, but the similarities it would

817
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 4: not be so surprising because a lot of killers, they

818
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: copycat and they learn and they almost revere and repeat, right,

819
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 4: And that has happened over many different people.

820
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean listen to the other obvious connections

821
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: would be that like Ted Bundy, Brian Coburger, the accused

822
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 2: allegedly didn't know anybody, right, so this was these were

823
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: you know, students said, he perhaps if what we're hearing

824
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 2: is that maybe fixated on And again it's not because

825
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 2: he was hanging with them or was dating one of

826
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: them and they had a terrible breakup, not that that

827
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: would justify any of this, but you know, typically we

828
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: see that there's some sort of connective tissue. It's rare

829
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: for random people to regularly murder like that. I mean,

830
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,399
Speaker 2: that's why we talk about it so much, because it's

831
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: a little bit like a great white shark in that regard, right.

832
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 3: And you know, and I think again, because we don't

833
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: have the motive, and I don't know that we're ever

834
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 3: going to and I don't know if I can live

835
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 3: with that. That's so fair, you know, like when things

836
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 3: don't make sense to me, I struggle with it. Like

837
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 3: if we don't find a motive, I don't know, I

838
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: just don't know. How the families can even like you

839
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 3: have to make sense of things, you have to like

840
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: compartmentalize things in your head, and I just don't know

841
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 3: that we're ever going to get that.

842
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the great question. Keep listening, and

843
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: please stay with us because we're also going to be

844
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: talking a bit more about the Travis Decker case. Also

845
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: will be joined by author and activist doctor Williams, who's

846
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 2: joining us for juneteenth True Crime Tonight, we're talking true

847
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 2: crime all the time. We are about to dig into

848
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: even more craziness in the Rex Humorman Long Island serial

849
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: killer case. Some updates there to explore. What do you

850
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 2: think I mean?

851
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 4: I was a little disappointed when I heard that apparently

852
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 4: the trial for Rex Humorman likely won't begin until twenty

853
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: twenty six at the earliest. So Humeerman was arrested on

854
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 4: suspicion of being the Long Island serial killer, a man

855
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 4: alleged to have potentially murdered eleven people. He has been

856
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 4: specifically linked to seven of the murders. But it looks

857
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 4: like things are pushing and this comes after also a

858
00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:00,479
Speaker 4: contentious DNA hearing that wrapped up yesterday. So what's going

859
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 4: on and there's going to be a continuance in July

860
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 4: July seventeen, specifically, but I think a lot needs to

861
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 4: be ironed.

862
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: Out before July seven to trial.

863
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 4: Correct, and that's going to be July seventeenth is going

864
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 4: to continue the DNA fry hearing.

865
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 2: Okay, super interesting stuff. I mean we talked about this

866
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 2: a little bit last night. You know, Rex Humor in

867
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: the accused has a wife and two children. They were

868
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: recently on the documentary on Peacock called The Gilgo Beach

869
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: Killer The House of Secrets, And if you haven't watched it,

870
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: it's really worth a worth a look because it's interesting

871
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: just to be a little bit in the behive and

872
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 2: hear from his wife kind of her take on it.

873
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 2: And I'm from inside the home exactly, and I'm so

874
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: curious if she's watched her interview back when it aired,

875
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 2: and if it's given any you know, new direction in

876
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 2: her mind or you know, has you know, has that

877
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: cemented her belief in him, because you know, she feels

878
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 2: pretty devoted. Yeah, but they're getting a divorce, Yeah, but

879
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: that might also be for financial I think it's for that,

880
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 2: because yes, getting a divorce, but still talking about loving

881
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: him and authentically interested in the fact.

882
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 4: That he had a hamburger and mashed potatoes for dinner.

883
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 4: And I'm quoting from a phone conversation in the documentary,

884
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 4: so there seems to be deep care.

885
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 2: Oh she appears yeah, and it also appears that she

886
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: was always traveling when these murders occurred, right, So that's

887
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: super intense. We're actually going to do a very big

888
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: deep dive on this on Sunday with our great forensics

889
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 2: expert Joseph Scott Morgan will be joining us to go

890
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: through the kill list that we were talking about last night,

891
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: which was this list that he apparently had, which is

892
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: really hard to unsee once you've seen it, and it

893
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: requires a real deep dive and an expert.

894
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 4: So I'm so happy, specifically we have Joseph Scott Morgan

895
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 4: to get into the forensic meaning of it.

896
00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 3: So I want to talk about all the new developments

897
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 3: in Karen Reid.

898
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 2: I thought you'd be done with Karen read listen I

899
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: am I said last night. That's a wrap. I haven't said.

900
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 2: I haven't even said those two words. It's an hour

901
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: I'm done, So for one full hour, I have not

902
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 2: said Karen Reid Okay, so you're dialing me in now, coach, Well,

903
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 2: I listen. I think it's really interesting as an ant.

904
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 3: Listen, I'm an analyst by trade, right, and I think

905
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: it's really interesting to get information from the jury because

906
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 3: they because then you can go and ask them questions

907
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 3: and they can respond, and then you can really have

908
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: like hindsight and look back at testimony and sure you

909
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 3: know so anyway, that's why I'm interested in this. So basically,

910
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: five players have come forward, right, five major players. Michael

911
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 3: Proctor went on twenty twenty right, Michael, Karen Reid's lawyer,

912
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 3: did the Howie Carr Show on radio. D're eleven did

913
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 3: the just I don't know how to say your last

914
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 3: name My fairly bad just Shadow show, and then Duror

915
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 3: four did TMZ iain alternate. Dur seventeen spoke with John

916
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: di Petro, but John de Petro deleted it, but I

917
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 3: have it wait after he appeared, he did, and I

918
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: The speculation about this deletion, and it's allegedly is that,

919
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 3: you know, John is a guilter, Karenry is guilty. Karenry

920
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 3: is guilty, you know, and this alternate juror basically kind

921
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: of made him look semi foolish, you know, like no,

922
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 3: like you're wrong, like she's she's not guilty, right, And

923
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 3: so the speculation is that he deleted it because you know,

924
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 3: he's a guilter and the alternate juror was basically telling

925
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 3: him all the holes in the case made you know,

926
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: everybody's saying not guilty. But he is saying, to his credit, John,

927
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 3: that another juror contacted him and said, don't talk to

928
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 3: the alternate jurors. They weren't even in on those deliberations.

929
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: So aren't alternate jurors not in this? That's gretch're not?

930
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 3: So why are they weighing in? You were not exactly what?

931
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 3: That is exactly what John is saying. Another juror that

932
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 3: contacted him is telling him, like why that's so that's

933
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 3: I think that's completely fair.

934
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: I'm just telling you what the speculation is.

935
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 4: Also, gilter, I have, is that something I need to

936
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: add to my vocabulary?

937
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 3: I never heard well, you know, like with Brian Coburger,

938
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 3: we say pro burgers, you know, like you know, like

939
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: people who are pro I don't know, it's just nicknames.

940
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: Okay, So are you a guilter?

941
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 4: No use it either Stephanie, I'm unclear body.

942
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: Am I non guilter? I don't know. I you know, listen,

943
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: I saw the juror that also was speaking with Harvey

944
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 2: Levin from TMZ. You know, I love my Harvey Levin.

945
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 2: I know you shot out to Harvey. So yes, and

946
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: it look it sounded like he was pretty convinced that

947
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 2: she was guilty and that he was not really feeling

948
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: her vibe. She seemed a little arrogant because she was

949
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: very confident. We've heard this from many people, right, you know.

950
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: And then apparently as like the trial went on, she's

951
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: he sort of softened up and she kind of grew

952
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: on him, right, Yeah.

953
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: And then the juror number eleven that Jess Machado spoke with,

954
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 3: she had some really interesting things to say, like Jess asked,

955
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: I think Jess asked some really good questions, like she asked,

956
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: do you believe the injuries to John O'Keefe's arm.

957
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: Were caused by a dog?

958
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 6: What do you do?

959
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: You guys want to know what?

960
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 5: She said?

961
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: I think yes, you have to go look it up

962
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: on her substack. What do look it up? Stack? Yes?

963
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 3: She said, yes, I actually have my own theory about

964
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: the dog's role in his death. I don't see those

965
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 3: injuries coming from a tail light at all. Plus the

966
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: lack of more injuries on his body made it really

967
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: hard to believe a collision occurred.

968
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 4: It made it hard for one single medical expert from

969
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 4: the prosecution or defense to agree as well.

970
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: So I'm with you.

971
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: So that was pretty interesting. That was And then she

972
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: asked another really good question. What witness did you trust

973
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: the most?

974
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 2: What do you think? She said? I think she trusted

975
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 2: the most. Who did I trust the most? I loved

976
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 2: the woman I'm forgetting her name. The doctor who was

977
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 2: we talked about her here? That was very no nonsense.

978
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: That was She was like, oh, I can't answer that

979
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 2: question because he wasn't hit by a vehicle.

980
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 3: Was it doctor Lepisota? Doctor Lepisota? She mentioned her. Yes,

981
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 3: we love her. Yep, she liked her. And she liked

982
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 3: Maureen Harnett. Oh yeah she was great too from the

983
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:20,879
Speaker 3: police lab.

984
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 2: Yeah she was great.

985
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 3: And then okay, this is the good one. What witness

986
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 3: did you trust the least?

987
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: Who do you think? She said?

988
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 4: M Kelly Dever for me, Oh, Kelly Dever that I

989
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 4: don't remember, recall I don't recall.

990
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 2: Can I take that? I don't know.

991
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 6: Kelly.

992
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, her behavior in court made me question whether it's

993
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 3: safe for someone who acts like that to be carrying

994
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,280
Speaker 3: a gun among civilians.

995
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: Hun that was that was her thing. I feel like

996
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 2: she was working for a bunch of people and she

997
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 2: was on the lower end of the chain work wise,

998
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: and that's got to be a tough spot. You got

999
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: to like either rite out your bosses or take some stitches.

1000
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was fishy and I think not great.

1001
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 4: We are talking about Karen Reid and the fallout from

1002
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 4: the trial. Hit us with the talkback on the iHeartRadio app.

1003
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 4: You just click on the red microphone the upper right

1004
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 4: hand corner, leave a message and you're on the show

1005
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 4: and we have a talkback right now speaking of excellent.

1006
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,680
Speaker 8: Hi y'all, This is Quinn in Connecticut. I know a

1007
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 8: verdict was reached in the Karen read trial, but I

1008
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 8: wanted to offer a theory I haven't heard anybody talk

1009
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 8: about yet. I also believe that Karen hit John with

1010
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 8: her car. Obviously the jury disagreed, but I also think

1011
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 8: that the people in the house might have found him

1012
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 8: a lot sooner than they claim they did and chose

1013
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 8: to do nothing out of fear they would get in

1014
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 8: trouble for drinking and driving or some other reason, maybe

1015
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 8: related to Brian Higgins. I think this would explain the

1016
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 8: how long to die in the cold search and other

1017
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 8: evidence of collusion uncovered by the defense. I'd love to

1018
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 8: know your thoughts.

1019
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 4: I'm a little flabbergasted because I have never thought about

1020
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 4: that theory, and that's saying something because a lot of

1021
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 4: different theories have been thrown around.

1022
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 2: It kind of bums me out too, And I listen,

1023
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm not alone in this, obviously, but captain obvious here.

1024
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,120
Speaker 2: You know, he could have lived had he been found sooner.

1025
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: You know, like that's a bummer, you know, maybe had

1026
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: you know, in an alternate universe, somebody can.

1027
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 3: Say that because because of the glass in the nose

1028
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 3: comment that Karen made. Is that why So when Karen

1029
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 3: said that she found John, she said there was like

1030
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 3: embedded glass in his nose and that she picked it

1031
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: out and blood kind of gushed out, so that would

1032
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: indicate a heartbeat.

1033
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,280
Speaker 2: Correct. I learned this from Joseph Scott Morgan me too. Yeah,

1034
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: so that's like an interesting detail, and you know, I

1035
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 2: think a lot of people have given Jen McCabe a

1036
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: little bit of, you know, stress in the press. She's

1037
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: also a witness that I identified. She was there at

1038
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: the scene with Karen Reid and basically said she overheard

1039
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 2: Karen Reid saying I did it. I did it. I

1040
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 2: watched the Proctor interview. Oh you did I did so? Okay,

1041
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: so poster Trooper pro Proctor. He was the investor stigator

1042
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: that you know, was a He testified in the first trial,

1043
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: but not at the retrial, and you know, highly controversial

1044
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: because you know, he was ultimately fired for some very

1045
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 2: inappropriate texts that he had sent between friends. And we've

1046
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 2: all been real hard on him. And it seemed to me,

1047
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: if you talked to me about this last night, that

1048
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: this is the guy, this was ground zero of this

1049
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 2: investigation getting real wonky, real quick. And I will not

1050
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: be too ashamed to admit when I saw his interview

1051
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 2: on twenty twenty with my sweet Matt Gupman, I thought

1052
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: he was really likable and I could you know, it's listen,

1053
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: I'm a sucker. Boston Irish Boston gets him too. He

1054
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 2: seems sincere his buddy is gone. You know, it's a night.

1055
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: You know, perspective is such a powerful thing, and I

1056
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 2: thought he was well spoken. What did he say about

1057
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: heart kind of breaks regrets it? You know, the kind

1058
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: of the sentiment I'm paraphrasing here was, you know, this

1059
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 2: is his buddy, this is best bud. You know. So yes,

1060
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: he was not he was still impartial, but because it

1061
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: was a friend, you know, it definitely adds emotion to it.

1062
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 2: And he regrets, he regrets sending those texts, and you know,

1063
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 2: he broke down in tears. You know, you're tired, and

1064
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: you know it's been a mess. It sounds like you know,

1065
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: I'm you know, he felt emotional, and you know he

1066
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 2: did get fired, and he knows the family. And listen,

1067
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: these were a bunch of buddies and one of their

1068
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: buddies that they were with died and he believed that

1069
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 2: Karen Reid was to blame. And he explained why. And

1070
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: you know, thank god, I'm not a juror, because you know,

1071
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 2: when you look in someone's eyes and you hear them talk,

1072
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: he sounded sincere. I'm not suggesting that Karen Reid, you know,

1073
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: did it, but I'm just saying.

1074
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 3: Well, he didn't testify, so the JURORSY get to see

1075
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 3: that's true side of him, right, they just heard about

1076
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: the investigation.

1077
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: That is true. He has taken such a bashing. Well

1078
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 2: he does. Yeah, it's terrible.

1079
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 4: It was an unconscionable investigation. I don't know, take every other,

1080
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 4: take out the friendship, take out every it was an

1081
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: unconsciable investigation.

1082
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: True. Anyway, we have a very special guest with us tonight,

1083
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 2: and I'm excited to have him join us right away,

1084
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 2: Doctor Williams, who's an activist and an author who was

1085
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: here to to really shed some light on not only Juneteenth,

1086
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: but also some of the black and brown cases that

1087
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 2: are just not getting enough attention. You know, we had

1088
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: spoken a bit about the Gabby Petito case. You'll remember

1089
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: Gabby Patito. She went missing and later was found dead

1090
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: and had been killed by her by her boyfriend, Slash Beyonce,

1091
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: and it got worldwide attention. The whole country was looking

1092
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: for her, and the Potitos really made an effort because

1093
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: they felt as though, you know, given their tragic loss,

1094
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 2: that they wanted to really pay that forward. And Gabby

1095
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 2: was this, you know, blonde, bright haired, beautiful girl, and

1096
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: maybe it got so much attention, and it really occurred

1097
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: to the Potito family that you know, we need to

1098
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: really do more to make sure that the black and

1099
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 2: brown community is also having this level of attention and

1100
00:50:57,880 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 2: we really want to be a part of that as

1101
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: well and make sure we're pushing that too. So, doctor Williams,

1102
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

1103
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 5: Great, thanks for having me.

1104
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 2: We're so happy you're here. Thank you so much.

1105
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 5: Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.

1106
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: So where should we begin. I know body wanted to

1107
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 2: jump in and had some very specific questions about some

1108
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 2: of the cases that you're looking at. But you know,

1109
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: thank you for shutting some light on on June's teenth

1110
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 2: for us.

1111
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 5: All. I appreciate it. And you just mentioned you were

1112
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 5: talking about the Potitos. Actually, that's not the first time

1113
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,399
Speaker 5: that you had a situation like that. I go back

1114
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty four the infamous Freedom Summer case. We had

1115
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 5: civil rights workers go missing in Mississippi while they were

1116
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 5: registering black people to vote in investigating arsons at black churches,

1117
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 5: which also cites for registering African Americans to vote. And

1118
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 5: one of the wife of one of those missing workers,

1119
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 5: Rita Schwerner, when the President Johnson and Johnson administration extended

1120
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 5: condolences and actually sent flowers to the two white missing

1121
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 5: some rights workers, and did not do the same thing

1122
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 5: for James Cheney, the missing black civil rights worker. You

1123
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 5: had readers Warner say essentially what Gaby Patio's family said.

1124
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 5: You know, until we have a system of justice in

1125
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 5: this country where all victims are treated equally, then you

1126
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 5: really don't have equal justice. So it's funny how those

1127
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 5: history doesn't repeat itself. That echoes. That's a good example

1128
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 5: of those.

1129
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: Echoes, and it's the numbersility extraordinary too. It gives me

1130
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: chills also, So how can we, you know, be a

1131
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: part of the change, because that's obviously the goal, and

1132
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: not just on Juneteenth, although an important, of course day

1133
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 2: to be to be speaking about, you know, we want

1134
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: to really make sure we're doing that on the daily.

1135
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: So thank you for taking the time to share some

1136
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 2: of these tales with us.

1137
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,800
Speaker 5: I appreciate that. I also appreciate the work. I think

1138
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 5: when we talk about, you know, true crime for some

1139
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 5: people has a more salacious kind of appeal, but the

1140
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 5: reality is it's keeping the names of victims correct out

1141
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 5: in front in the public, and that's so important, particularly

1142
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 5: for black and brown people, indigenous people. We need that

1143
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 5: kind of visibility and I'm very appreciative of the work

1144
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 5: that you do for that reason.

1145
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: Thank you, absolutely, thank you so much.

1146
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 4: I have a question, doctor Williams, can you talk us

1147
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,800
Speaker 4: through sort of the state of affairs about cold cases

1148
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 4: and unsolved murders for black victims, because if I understand correctly,

1149
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 4: there's pretty gross disparities.

1150
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 5: It's it's a great question, and there are, and the

1151
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 5: reality is that this is also a legacy of holdover

1152
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 5: from emancipation and reconstruction. We often don't think about it

1153
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,800
Speaker 5: this way. So, for example, we're commemorating June teenth, which

1154
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 5: is significant because it was on June nineteenth that the

1155
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 5: slaves in Dallas and Texas were finally informed of Lincoln's

1156
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 5: Emancipatient Proclamation, which have been issued two years earlier now

1157
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 5: very quickly. It's important for people to know that the

1158
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 5: Emancipatient Proclamation doesn't free the slaves. The thirteenth Amendment actually

1159
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 5: abolished the slavery, but the Emancipatient Proclamation was important because

1160
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,320
Speaker 5: as a wartime measure, it freed those slaves and active

1161
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 5: rebellion against the Union. But here's the key part the

1162
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 5: emancipation proclamation is dependent on the force of the Union army,

1163
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 5: and as the Union army is advancing, it's only when

1164
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 5: the Union army actually arrives in specific areas that the

1165
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 5: formerly enslaved can enjoy some of the liberties that we

1166
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 5: associate with freedom. But there was also a great deal

1167
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 5: of violent against the former slaves, the formerly enslaved, as

1168
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 5: slave masters kind of lost their standing in community. One

1169
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 5: of the ways that they were able to maintain control

1170
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 5: was through violent. So the whole problem of kind of

1171
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 5: missing and murdered people of color actually begins as a

1172
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 5: legacy of emancipation.

1173
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 3: Wow, it is so deep, right, like how do we

1174
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 3: how do we fix this? And and that's such a

1175
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 3: complicated answer, I know, I just it just seems like,

1176
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 3: you know, this is twenty twenty five, Why are we

1177
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 3: still having these problems? And like it's societal right, Like

1178
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 3: I'm getting just in my head right now, and I

1179
00:54:58,960 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 3: just can't you know, s.

1180
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 2: I think part of it is talking about it, you know,

1181
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 2: like this is this is what we're doing, you know,

1182
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 2: like let's discuss and unpack it and make sure that

1183
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: we're keeping victims well. Even as like a true crime creator.

1184
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 3: Like when you go to crime Con and you look

1185
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 3: out into the audience from the stage, what do you see?

1186
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 3: You see a sea of white women. Even even as

1187
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 3: a creator, there's hardly any African American or or Latina

1188
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 3: or you know, indigenous women creating true crime content. And

1189
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: we need to we need to we need to fix that,

1190
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, right, I mean, it's it's definitely a priority.

1191
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 2: Here. We did a documentary called Murdered and Missing in Montana,

1192
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 2: which you know, focuses on the Indigenous Murdered and Missing movement,

1193
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 2: and yeah, it was pretty shocking. How you know, how

1194
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 2: how rampant this was. And once you know that, it's

1195
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 2: hard to it's hard to look away. So you know,

1196
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: where can we dig into a case? Even currently, I

1197
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 2: love it.

1198
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 5: By the way, Murdered and Missing in Montana's phenomenal, and

1199
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 5: I think it's kind of interesting. Going back to the

1200
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 5: history for just a second. Part of it is legislation.

1201
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 5: So way back in eighteen seventy, in the aftermath of

1202
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 5: the thirteenth Amendment, you needed an enforcement Act to essentially

1203
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 5: declare acts of violence against African Americans federal crimes because

1204
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 5: there was no local enforcement and a lot of that

1205
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 5: violence was perpetrated by organizations we most often associated with

1206
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 5: the Ku Klux Klan, but these are white terrorist organizations,

1207
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 5: white supremacist organizations that do their business in the cover

1208
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:30,400
Speaker 5: of night and often hid their victims. So they're, you know,

1209
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 5: kind of all these people, all these bodies that are

1210
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 5: a mass. But the Supreme Court eviscerated key sections of

1211
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 5: that Enforcement Act in a series of cases in the

1212
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 5: eighteen seventies. The same thing happened during the Civil Rights

1213
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 5: era in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. There were

1214
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 5: calls for stronger legislation like the Civil Rights Act of

1215
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty four, the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five.

1216
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 5: Right now, the US Congress kind of stalled out on

1217
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 5: the Justice for just George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.

1218
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,840
Speaker 5: But all these have that consistent strain of trying to

1219
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 5: when some accountability and you know, at least a modicum

1220
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 5: of accountability around issues of justice for communities of color,

1221
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 5: particularly women of color. And that's why I really appreciate

1222
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 5: all of you elevating that, because when you talk about

1223
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 5: invisibility in terms of these statistics, they really are the

1224
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 5: margins of the Margins agreed.

1225
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: Totally agreed, Doctor Williams.

1226
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 3: We understand that you recently spoke at the Missing and

1227
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 3: Murdered Black Women and Girls Office in Minnesota. Can you

1228
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 3: tell us about that office when it was established in

1229
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 3: the kind of work they do.

1230
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 5: Thank you for that question. I really appreciate that that

1231
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 5: office was established. The work began in twenty twenty two,

1232
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,959
Speaker 5: and it was really inspired here by the work of

1233
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 5: the Indigenous community to really bring awareness around the issue

1234
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 5: of missing a murdered Indigenous women. So we had an

1235
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 5: office for Missing a Murdered Indigenous Women first, which was

1236
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 5: really championed by our Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, who is

1237
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:58,760
Speaker 5: of Indigenous descent. And then you had a number of

1238
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 5: black activists year along with legislators coming together and saying

1239
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 5: this has been a huge problem in the black community

1240
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 5: as well. We need this office for Black women and

1241
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 5: girls as well. So I was fortunate to speak at

1242
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 5: the inaugural launch of that office, and it was a

1243
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 5: wonderful day, but also a sad day getting to meet

1244
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 5: some of the families of victims. And you're talking about cases.

1245
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 5: One of the cases that I talked about was a

1246
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 5: woman by the name of Deborah Rogers who went missing

1247
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety six, and there was really no movement

1248
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 5: on her case. But then you talk about kind of

1249
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 5: the deep harm to a family. Her cousin had gone

1250
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 5: missing in nineteen eighty eight and that case didn't receive

1251
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 5: any attention. So you're talking about now within families, a

1252
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 5: legacy of missing and murdered family members, which sends a

1253
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 5: message to those people within the community that your lives

1254
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 5: really don't matter.

1255
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 3: Part of the reason a generational trauma on top of it, right,

1256
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 3: Like imagine growing up your life thinking that you don't matter.

1257
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 2: I mean, it makes me want it makes me tear up.

1258
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's frustrating. It's frustrating, Doctor Williams.

1259
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 4: I was recently, we have been talking about the horrible

1260
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 4: shot A Robinson case. Although the strength that her mother

1261
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:23,439
Speaker 4: has found is staggering and awesome in the literal sense

1262
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 4: of awesome. In digging around, I had found one statistic,

1263
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:31,800
Speaker 4: and it was that in Wisconsin, black women are twenty

1264
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 4: times more likely to be murdered than white women. Now

1265
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 4: Wisconsin is the leading that is the highest in the

1266
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 4: United States. But that staggered me and then also I

1267
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,160
Speaker 4: was looking at some stats on the OMMBWG and that

1268
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 4: there are over sixty thousand Black women and girls missing

1269
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 4: right now in the United States.

1270
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 2: Can you speak to any of that?

1271
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 5: Really important? And thank you for kind of naming the

1272
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 5: National Office of Missing a Murder Black Women and Girls.

1273
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 5: But I you know, those stats coming out of Wisconsin

1274
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 5: are indicative of a number of problems that work in

1275
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 5: concert to create even greater levels of vulnerability for Black

1276
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 5: women and girls. I like to call them the six

1277
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 5: degrees of segregation. So you have not only high levels

1278
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,240
Speaker 5: of crime within communities of color, but high levels of

1279
01:00:21,240 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 5: crime that are fed by, for example, unfair labor practices,

1280
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 5: a lack of access to quality education, a lack of

1281
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:31,280
Speaker 5: access to places of public accommodation, Jim Crow justice, and

1282
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 5: fear of the criminal legal system given generations of feeling

1283
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 5: like the criminal legal system doesn't work to the benefit

1284
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 5: of the q or for the benefit of the community,

1285
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 5: and those things work in concert to make Black women

1286
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 5: and black girls even more vulnerable. They for example, decrease

1287
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 5: the likelihood to report of crimes violence or domestic violence,

1288
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 5: which is just a big source of this problem. And

1289
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 5: they also don't speak to the epidemic problem that we

1290
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 5: have around drug abuse in this country as a whole,

1291
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 5: and the fact that even that's racialized in a way

1292
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 5: that we talk about problems within the African American community,

1293
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 5: the black community and other communities.

1294
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 3: Such important work that you're doing, doctor Williams. Thank you

1295
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 3: so much, but stick around where be right back true

1296
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight.

1297
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 2: We've had a very special guest with us, doctor Williams,

1298
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 2: who was both an activist and an author. He's really

1299
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 2: shedding some light on on so many issues that we're

1300
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: facing with even executions. And you know, there's so many

1301
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: famous cases. The case of George Stenney Junior, for example,

1302
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 2: is such an important one, doctor Williams, And yeah, can

1303
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 2: you fill us in a little bit more.

1304
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,919
Speaker 5: Sure, It's an infamous case and one that I think

1305
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 5: quants me even to this day. George Stenney was fourteen

1306
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 5: years old. He was living in a small community, small town,

1307
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 5: a sawmill town in South Carolina, and in March of

1308
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 5: nineteen forty four, he was accused of the murder an

1309
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 5: alleged although this was never really brought out in trial,

1310
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 5: but there was some suggestion of even sexual assault against

1311
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 5: two young girls and the only evidence against him was

1312
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 5: the fact that he had been seen talking to the

1313
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,480
Speaker 5: girls earlier in the day. When their bodies are discovered

1314
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 5: the following morning, suspicion falls on George and his brother. Supposedly, George,

1315
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 5: who is unaccompanied by his parents when he's interrogated by police,

1316
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 5: confesses to the crime, and from that point forward he

1317
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 5: is essentially railroaded by South Carolina a justice system. So

1318
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 5: what ends up happening is after George confesses, he is

1319
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 5: basically kept away from his parents. His parents aren't allowed

1320
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 5: to visit him. He's tried shortly thereafter by an all white,

1321
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 5: all white, all male jury, so certainly not a jury

1322
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 5: of his peers, his parents. There are no black people

1323
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 5: in the courtroom because it's segregated. South Carolina. Nineteen twenty four,

1324
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,960
Speaker 5: and in April, just a few weeks after the prime

1325
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 5: he is electrocuted, sentenced to death and dies by electrocution

1326
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 5: people today, fourteen years old, the youngest person to still

1327
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 5: a record to ever be executed in the United States.

1328
01:03:15,560 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: We've seen images of that too, and it is it's

1329
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 2: hard to unsee and really important that we're talking about it,

1330
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 2: because it's really unfathomable.

1331
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 5: It is, and I think what is so striking about

1332
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 5: it is the most people think about civil rights cases.

1333
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 5: The case that most of us think about are drawing too,

1334
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 5: is the case of m Mattil, who's the fourteen year

1335
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 5: old African American boy who's murdered in Money, Mississippi in

1336
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 5: nineteen fifty five. But the parallels between the cases are

1337
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,160
Speaker 5: pretty powerful. Sinny, of course, is accused of assaulting two

1338
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 5: white girls, and there's this long standing historical taboo about

1339
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 5: relations between black men and white women. And you know,

1340
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 5: that was a lynching offense in South Carolina even today.

1341
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 5: You know there was some justin that if a state

1342
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 5: hadn't taken his life, it was very likely that he

1343
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 5: and his family could have been targeted by extra legal

1344
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 5: violent by virtue of this assault. And it's also important

1345
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 5: to note that historically, although men were accused of these crimes,

1346
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 5: often when we talk about missing and murdered people of color,

1347
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 5: there are any number of cases where entire families pay

1348
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,760
Speaker 5: the price for accusations leveled on one member of the family.

1349
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 5: They can't find that person and they end up killing

1350
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 5: or conducting acts of violence against the family, and in

1351
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,360
Speaker 5: a couple of cases in Oklahoma. You even have documented

1352
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,439
Speaker 5: cases of mothers and sons being lynched on the same day,

1353
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 5: and the only crime of the mother is attempting to

1354
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 5: protect their child from the vengeance of the lynch mob.

1355
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just sickening. You know. We were Courtney

1356
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 2: and I were working very closely on the Rodney Reid

1357
01:04:44,680 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 2: case in Texas, and that still is an ongoing one.

1358
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: He was looking at an execution and it seemed as

1359
01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 2: though they were not testing his DNA despite the fact

1360
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 2: that they had DNA to test, And now he has

1361
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 2: a stay of execution. Again, controversial case, but I bring

1362
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 2: it up simply to say, you know, real time, this

1363
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,240
Speaker 2: is a real thing, and you know, we all have

1364
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 2: to do more.

1365
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 5: I appreciate you, Stan. I often tell people one of

1366
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 5: the things that I really appreciate about true crime slupsis

1367
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 5: as historians, we work with dead viruses and you guys

1368
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 5: work with live ones. The reality changes that we talk

1369
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 5: about are are old and they carry the weight of

1370
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 5: essential justice. But you're actually talking about people whose lives

1371
01:05:25,440 --> 01:05:27,959
Speaker 5: hang in a very balance. That's very important work.

1372
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's important stuff to keep the word out there,

1373
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 2: so you know, we were saying this earlier before you

1374
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 2: came on and joined us. You know, how do we

1375
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 2: do this as a regular thing, you know, not just

1376
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 2: on a holiday but also you know, weekly and making

1377
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 2: sure that we're keeping certain cases you know, up and

1378
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 2: at the forefront of people's minds. Because one thing we

1379
01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 2: do know is that the community is really large and

1380
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 2: really actionable and people, you know, I can say our

1381
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 2: audience and the people that are listening right now, they

1382
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: genuinely care. So you know, we can move mountains or

1383
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, at least start to together. So here is

1384
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 2: a big piece of that. Yes, very much so, doctor Williams.

1385
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 4: I had a question to ask you, and I was

1386
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 4: reminded when you mentioned this, if I'm getting your phrase correct,

1387
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 4: the six degrees of segregation?

1388
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: Am I getting that right?

1389
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:13,680
Speaker 5: Yes?

1390
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 2: Okay, great.

1391
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 4: So, first of all, that's really great how you laid

1392
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 4: out all of the tenants or prongs of that, but

1393
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 4: it was it reminded me so much. Stephanie mentioned earlier

1394
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 4: we worked on murdered Missing in Montana and so at

1395
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 4: that time we of course did a lot of work

1396
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 4: with m MIIW groups and there's a phrase the women

1397
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 4: disappear not once but three times, and it's they're no

1398
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,200
Speaker 4: longer physically they are you know, they are dead. And

1399
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 4: then also in the media, their stories are underreported or

1400
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 4: not reported at all, as well as in the data,

1401
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 4: there's inadequate and incomplete data collection, lack of resources. I mean,

1402
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 4: I can tell you in making the document, we went

1403
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 4: through really important documents in people's names where these are

1404
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 4: federal documents, and people's names were spelled nine different ways.

1405
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 4: People didn't care enough to get the names right. Any

1406
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 4: thoughts on.

1407
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 5: That it's a denial of personhood in a way that

1408
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 5: is visceral. Should people lean into what you just shared,

1409
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 5: And I think it's really powerful then to talk about

1410
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:24,840
Speaker 5: it in terms of those three layers of death, the

1411
01:07:24,960 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 5: physical violence visited on the body, the erasure that comes

1412
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 5: when the community ignores that violence or ignores the loss

1413
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 5: of that person. And then as you have people who

1414
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 5: might be awakened to that injustice trying to recover that story,

1415
01:07:38,720 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 5: the impediments they encounter, then trying to just get the

1416
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 5: basic facts about this person whose life mattered. It's like,

1417
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 5: you take these victims and you make their lives ambiguous,

1418
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 5: and these aren't ambiguous lives. These are members of our community,

1419
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 5: mothers and sisters and workers and contributors who deserve better

1420
01:07:58,760 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 5: than that.

1421
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was really it was staggering to see it,

1422
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:04,280
Speaker 4: you know, in our hands.

1423
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 3: And I experienced that with Shakaiya Shakaya Blue Harding, who's

1424
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:14,360
Speaker 3: missing out of Montana, the Northern Cheyenne Tribe. Yeah, the

1425
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 3: she was reported missing, and she was reported missing and

1426
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 3: her poster in her police report were not updated for

1427
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 3: an entire month. It's sat on a detective's desk an

1428
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:26,799
Speaker 3: entire month.

1429
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:28,720
Speaker 2: And by the way, we know the first forty eight

1430
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 2: hours are the most significant party in an investigation. So

1431
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 2: if your family member is not getting the word out

1432
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,080
Speaker 2: about if people aren't looking, they're not going to get found.

1433
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,880
Speaker 2: And that, I guess is also such an attack on

1434
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 2: you know, what we're not doing on personhood.

1435
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 3: Just like doctor Williams said, I mean, it's a it's

1436
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 3: a literal attack on this on your personhood, and it's

1437
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's upsetting, it's very upsetting, Doctor Williams.

1438
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:55,800
Speaker 3: I have a question, could you talk a little bit

1439
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 3: more about the historical relationship between capital punishment and black

1440
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 3: American Like, are there.

1441
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 2: Any statistics and whatnot? That you have to kind of

1442
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 2: tell us about.

1443
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,960
Speaker 5: There's some very well documented studies. But I'm actually working

1444
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 5: on a book now on lynching, a capital punishment in Delaware.

1445
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 5: And the reason that book came about is I moved

1446
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,760
Speaker 5: to Delaware to take a teaching job in the late

1447
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 5: nineteen nineties and was struck by something that happened. There

1448
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 5: was a gentleman by the name of Reginald Hannah who

1449
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 5: died in police custody, and a person wrote into the newspaper,

1450
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 5: which came out on Wednesday once a week, and that

1451
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 5: person wrote, it should be like it was when I

1452
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:36,439
Speaker 5: was a little girl, take them out on trees and

1453
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 5: lynch them. Why don't they do that anymore? And I

1454
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 5: was so disgusted by that it struck responded, well, yeah,

1455
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 5: and it was just it was strange to me because

1456
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 5: this was you know, no one responded. So I kind

1457
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 5: of looked into that and came across this very infamous

1458
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 5: lynching nineteen oh three, but then realized that that wasn't

1459
01:09:53,200 --> 01:09:55,320
Speaker 5: the story. And just to give you the thumbnail very quickly,

1460
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,040
Speaker 5: it was a gentleman who was accused of the rape

1461
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 5: and murder of a seventeen year old girl and when

1462
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 5: they lynched Hi, the Chief Justice of the Delaware Court said,

1463
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 5: there was no need for you to resort to mob violence.

1464
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 5: If you had left it to the court, he would

1465
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 5: have been dead in six weeks. And I thought that

1466
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 5: was very powerful because it was like a denial of

1467
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 5: due process, very similar to the Stinny case. It's like,

1468
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 5: you know, if you don't want to say that, the

1469
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 5: court is going to do the work of the lynch mob,

1470
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 5: but the reality is that's what it felt like the

1471
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 5: justice was saying. And so when I began to dig

1472
01:10:23,840 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 5: into capital punishment and Delaware, those are the numbers I uncovered.

1473
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 5: I'll just give you a couple of very stark statistics

1474
01:10:29,320 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 5: from that between well, the first white man to be

1475
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:36,320
Speaker 5: executed for rape and the history of Delaware is in

1476
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 5: nineteen forty two. All the other men who are executed

1477
01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:43,759
Speaker 5: for rape are all black men. And in those cases

1478
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,520
Speaker 5: there are a couple of egregious ones where the victims

1479
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 5: the persons executed were clearly not guilty. Now, I want

1480
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 5: to be clear, the metric isn't always innocence. It should

1481
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 5: be due process. That's why we have a legal system,

1482
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 5: and we want to but it's I think more compellent

1483
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 5: for people when you talk about cases of individuals who

1484
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 5: innocent and the starkest was involved. Gentleman by the name

1485
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 5: of Theodore Russ who was executed in nineteen thirty. He

1486
01:11:08,439 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 5: is accused of rape, but the reality is that he

1487
01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:16,400
Speaker 5: had stolen moonshine from a local bootlegger. They couldn't square

1488
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 5: out a criminal complaint of stealing moonshine because it's the

1489
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 5: high of prohibition, so they accused him of rape. And

1490
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 5: despite the fact that there was abundant evidence that he

1491
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 5: had not committed this crime. He's executed in August of

1492
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:29,080
Speaker 5: nineteen thirty for a crime he doesn't commit.

1493
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:30,200
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1494
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, you have Alice dunbarn Nelson, who's an African American luminary, author,

1495
01:11:35,479 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 5: activist who writes in her diary haunts me even to

1496
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,360
Speaker 5: say it. Theodore russ life snuffed out at the end

1497
01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:43,640
Speaker 5: of a hangman's noose. How I wish I could make

1498
01:11:43,680 --> 01:11:46,559
Speaker 5: those responsible hang alongside him.

1499
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's powerful, it's very very powerful. Yeah. Where can

1500
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 2: we find your work and support that?

1501
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 5: Oh? Thank you. I'm still working. The book is almost done.

1502
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 5: I've kind of done some other projects, but I have

1503
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 5: several articles that are out in Delaware history that look

1504
01:12:03,439 --> 01:12:07,120
Speaker 5: at some of these unknown instances of racial violence, lynching

1505
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 5: of a guy named Jacob Hamilton in eighteen sixty one,

1506
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:13,120
Speaker 5: the lynching of George White in nineteen oh three, and

1507
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 5: then article that looks at kind of the long sweep

1508
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 5: of violence and Delaware and quote some of those statistics

1509
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 5: around capital punishment including you know that, you know, very

1510
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 5: stark for people to realize that, you know, those numbers

1511
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 5: are are so disproportionate, and that disproportionality is represented throughout

1512
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:30,919
Speaker 5: our criminal legal system in the country.

1513
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:34,840
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, doctor Williams. We sincerely hope you

1514
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 4: can come on again come back. As a reminder. Doctor

1515
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 4: Williams is the founding director of the Racial Justice Initiative

1516
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 4: at the University of Saint Thomas and Saint Paul, Minnesota.

1517
01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: Big, huge thanks to the incredible guest we've had tonight.

1518
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 2: We had Brian Enton, of course of News Nation. He'll

1519
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:55,799
Speaker 2: be on the ground covering frankly, all the juice every cases.

1520
01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy's on an airplane. I think you

1521
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 2: have a twin single day. He has to have a twin.

1522
01:13:01,120 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 2: He needs to be like making sure he's taking his

1523
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 2: vitamins so we keep him well and healthy so he

1524
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:10,160
Speaker 2: can report live from everywhere. And then of course doctor Williams,

1525
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 2: you know so much life. He'll come back with us

1526
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 2: hopefully next week as well. So a special thanks to

1527
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,960
Speaker 2: everybody who joined us tonight and again for you, we

1528
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: want to make sure you're telling us what you want

1529
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 2: us to follow. Also, so if there are cases that

1530
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 2: we just aren't covering enough of, I know, I get

1531
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 2: a little one note on my Diddy. It's been several

1532
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:31,960
Speaker 2: days now with no Diddy. Those I'm proud of you.

1533
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 2: You wait till I get there. Almost made it a

1534
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 2: whole show. I almost did. It's so true, I almost did,

1535
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 2: and I almost didn't say Karen read what am I

1536
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 2: going to talk about? For good?

1537
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1538
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 2: My time is going to be so oddly divided now

1539
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:48,600
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one crime or just hit us

1540
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 2: up on our socials and tell us what you want

1541
01:13:50,200 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 2: us to follow. What should we be geting? Obsessed with Diddy?

1542
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:55,280
Speaker 2: We're going to be talking a lot about on Monday,

1543
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,760
Speaker 2: but Sunday, Big day on Sunday, so make sure you

1544
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 2: tune in. You know, we're here live two hours. We're

1545
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 2: always here. Sunday through Thursday. But Sunday we have a

1546
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,759
Speaker 2: really big show, an eventized show with Joseph Scott Morgan.

1547
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 2: He was on earlier this week and now he's going

1548
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:15,439
Speaker 2: to break down all the scary forensics in the most methodical, scary,

1549
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 2: only the way Joseph Scott Morgan can. And we're going

1550
01:14:19,160 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 2: to be talking about the kill list that was found

1551
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 2: on or allegedly found with a well, I think it's

1552
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 2: not even allegedly, I think that was found. It's a

1553
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 2: huge serial killer accused. He claims his innocence Rex Humorman

1554
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:35,960
Speaker 2: in the Long Island serial killing case. I'm a Long Islander,

1555
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 2: Go Long Island. We are going to find justice no

1556
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 2: matter what. But you know, Joseah's going to talk through

1557
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,719
Speaker 2: some of the forensics on this because it's pretty harrowing stuff.

1558
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 4: I'm about to eat my words on something. So when

1559
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,840
Speaker 4: we were talking a while ago about the dateline leak,

1560
01:14:51,120 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 4: and as it pertains to Brian Coberger's case, his porn

1561
01:14:55,560 --> 01:14:58,439
Speaker 4: searches were thrown out and I said, and I meant

1562
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 4: at the time, I didn't get it that much weight, and.

1563
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 2: I did, we didn't. We don't hold it against your core.

1564
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 4: Well, but I feel grossly different having now seen, in

1565
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 4: addition to the kill list, the porn, the specificity of

1566
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 4: the porn searches.

1567
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 2: Oh with him with Rex Huerman.

1568
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 4: Of the Long Island Serial Murderer. The alleged is something

1569
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 4: we will dig into on Sunday. And actually I'd love

1570
01:15:24,640 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 4: to get some real health expert but holy mackerel.

1571
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, specific, like the specific searches, and like you know,

1572
01:15:32,120 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 3: I went, I kind of went crazy the other night

1573
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:35,519
Speaker 3: about this document, right, Like I was.

1574
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 2: You got me all night. Yeah, we have to talk

1575
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 2: about there.

1576
01:15:41,240 --> 01:15:45,920
Speaker 3: It is salacious, it is horrifying. It is detailed, right,

1577
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 3: I said, I sent you guys a copy. I think

1578
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 3: it's Yeah, it's next level, it's it's little. It's literally

1579
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:55,720
Speaker 3: like the scariest movie you've ever seen. You should all

1580
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 3: be out dancing on tables all night, and instead we

1581
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 3: spend our nights up and awake and scared looking at

1582
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:05,360
Speaker 3: kill lists generated allegedly by Iraq Ummerman. But I think

1583
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:08,040
Speaker 3: it's really important to talk about it because it's really Again,

1584
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 3: how can you imagine that this type of thing happens?

1585
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 3: And it's two pages, It's two pages, and it's like

1586
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 3: a checklist, right, So we're gonna we're gonna be deep

1587
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 3: diving that. We're gonna be deep diving that and talking

1588
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,479
Speaker 3: to Joseph and I'm really excited about Sunday's show.

1589
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 4: I'm really saying about And we'll have several cases too,

1590
01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 4: so a lot too.

1591
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 3: And well we can ask him too about the you know,

1592
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 3: the corresponding with Brian Coberger searches and see if there's

1593
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 3: a call that's I love that.

1594
01:16:36,280 --> 01:16:39,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, such a great night everybody. Thank you, ladies. I'm

1595
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:42,120
Speaker 2: crazy for you and I just love getting to hang

1596
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 2: with you. And yeah, listen, we're off tomorrow back on Sunday,

1597
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 2: so make sure you join us. This is true crime tonight.

1598
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. Have a great,

1599
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 2: safe night.

1600
01:17:01,479 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 3: Yes,