WEBVTT - Hacking and Tracking the Human Brain

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<v Speaker 1>These sees Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. I have to say, Damian, we

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<v Speaker 1>were thinking about this. One of the conversations we've all

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<v Speaker 1>been having following the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank was

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<v Speaker 1>the uptick in social conversations ahead of the bank's takeover

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<v Speaker 1>and how that might have contributed to the bank run

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<v Speaker 1>on SVB. It's just kind of part of the narrative.

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<v Speaker 1>We're living in this increasingly digital world with NonStop data

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<v Speaker 1>collection everything we do, everything, we buy, everything, we say, everything,

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<v Speaker 1>we think right, and we willingly contribute to contribute to it,

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<v Speaker 1>or don't even realize the data dump that we keep doing.

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<v Speaker 1>I came across one measure the world generating some two

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<v Speaker 1>and a half quintillion bites per day. I don't even

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<v Speaker 1>know what quintillion is. It's just gigantic. So with that

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<v Speaker 1>in mind, let's bring in our guest, Nita Farahney. She

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<v Speaker 1>is the author of the Battle for Your Brain, defending

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<v Speaker 1>the right to think freely at the age of neurotechnology.

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<v Speaker 1>She's Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke University, founding

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<v Speaker 1>director the Duke Initiative for Science and Society. Delighted to

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<v Speaker 1>have with her here via zoom Endorament, North Carolina, Nita Welcome,

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome at TI Blomberg BusinessWeek. Carol Master with Damian sasaur

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<v Speaker 1>So tell us about what is the Battle for our

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<v Speaker 1>brains It's been waging for a while. First of all,

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<v Speaker 1>it's so nice to be with you here today. But

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<v Speaker 1>The Battle for a Brain is a book that talks

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<v Speaker 1>about the next step in data commodification, which is commodification

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<v Speaker 1>of our brains. So that's already happening in many ways,

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<v Speaker 1>as all of the different platforms that we that we're

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<v Speaker 1>on crete psychogenic profiles of us. But there's more coming,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the coming age of consumer brain wearables. People

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<v Speaker 1>are used to wearing already fitbits or Apple watches that

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<v Speaker 1>have sensors that are embedded in them. What they don't

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<v Speaker 1>have yet, although some people use them already, our sensors

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<v Speaker 1>that track their brain activity and decode what's happening in

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<v Speaker 1>their brains. And that's what's launching now is multifunctional devices

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<v Speaker 1>like earbuds and headphones and watches that have neural interface

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<v Speaker 1>pick up into code brain activity. Yeah, some of the

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<v Speaker 1>items you address in the book, I mean for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me so far. Wait.

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<v Speaker 1>So if I put on earbuds, bows, earbuds or something,

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<v Speaker 1>you're telling me they're picking up brain activity. Not today,

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<v Speaker 1>but they will so the you know kind of next Basically,

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<v Speaker 1>like every major tech company from Meta that is coming

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<v Speaker 1>out in early twenty twenty five with a watch that

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<v Speaker 1>the primary way that you'll interact with their AAR glasses

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<v Speaker 1>is neural interface. It'll pick up brain activity as it

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<v Speaker 1>goes for your brain down to your rest or um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, companies like Neurable have headphones where they've partnered

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<v Speaker 1>with a major headphone manufact actor, like your bows headphones

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<v Speaker 1>um that's in the cups that go around the ears.

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<v Speaker 1>They have sensors that pick up brain activity. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of goal for most of these companies is

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<v Speaker 1>to make neural interface the kind of primary way that

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<v Speaker 1>you interact with the rest of your technology. Like eventually

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<v Speaker 1>you might not need a keyboarder or a mouse, but

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<v Speaker 1>until that day, right until that day, you'll be able

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<v Speaker 1>to track your brain activity for focus and attention and

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<v Speaker 1>mind wandering and helpless metrics. Things that you couldn't do

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<v Speaker 1>before suddenly will become possible and will also become possible

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<v Speaker 1>for companies and governments, And so the battle for your

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<v Speaker 1>brain is the kind of rush to this field to

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<v Speaker 1>see who can really hack and track the human brain. Sanita,

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<v Speaker 1>you mentioned brain biometrics and deciphering, you know, all that

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<v Speaker 1>all that's going on up there, you know, But some

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<v Speaker 1>of the items in the book that you mentioned, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it should create out a minority purport, you know. I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like Tom Cruising talking about arresting individuals for even

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<v Speaker 1>contemplating murder, not even committing it. I mean, if that

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<v Speaker 1>were the case, I mean, I've been arrested a long

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<v Speaker 1>time ago. But I mean, how far away are we

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<v Speaker 1>from having technology that can effectively read people's minds? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>what I say to people as a defensive what you

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<v Speaker 1>think your mind is right? So if you think of

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<v Speaker 1>your mind is literally the inner dialogue that you're having,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's a long ways before these types of

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<v Speaker 1>technologies will decode that complex thought. But already with the

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<v Speaker 1>technology today, your basic emotional levels, your reaction to everything

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<v Speaker 1>from pictures of political candidates that might be able to

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<v Speaker 1>suss out what your political biases are too. If your

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<v Speaker 1>mind is wandering when you're at work and your employer

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<v Speaker 1>asked you to wear one of these neural devices that

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<v Speaker 1>track your fatigue levels or your attention or your engagement

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<v Speaker 1>or your gordom. That's already possible today, and the technology

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<v Speaker 1>even enables probing the mind for information that's there. And

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<v Speaker 1>so you mentioned the Minority Report, which I talk about

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<v Speaker 1>it in the book and I always talk with my

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<v Speaker 1>students about but it's already being used by law enforcements

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<v Speaker 1>around the world to interrogate criminal suspects for recognition of

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<v Speaker 1>a crime scene detail or a murderer weapon or something

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<v Speaker 1>like that. So it's really one of the things I

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<v Speaker 1>hope to do with the book is to just document

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<v Speaker 1>kind of EXAs ample after example of what's already here

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<v Speaker 1>and how much of the brain can already be decoded,

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<v Speaker 1>and how much of it is already in use already.

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<v Speaker 1>So within a technology, there's the good, the bad, and

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<v Speaker 1>the ugly. What's the upside to this? It can't all

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<v Speaker 1>be bad? Or is it all? No, No, it's really

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<v Speaker 1>not all that I mean, right, So, first of all,

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<v Speaker 1>I think in the hands of individuals who have control

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<v Speaker 1>over their own brain data, suddenly the one area of

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<v Speaker 1>our bodies. That's the most important aspect of our well being.

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<v Speaker 1>Our brains becomes accessible to us, so you know your

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<v Speaker 1>ability to actually start to track brain metrics and metrics

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<v Speaker 1>of well being in health, and to know what's happening

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<v Speaker 1>in your own brain, including by the way, how well

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<v Speaker 1>you pay attention or focus if you're working from home

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<v Speaker 1>or working in the workplace, or what your optimal hours are,

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<v Speaker 1>or how you meditate effectively to bring your stress level

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<v Speaker 1>it's down. There's a lot that these technologies can do

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<v Speaker 1>to empower individuals, but it all depends on who has

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<v Speaker 1>access to what's happening in your brain, how is it

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<v Speaker 1>used or how is it misused, And that's the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of balance that we really have to be striking. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what this book is about, is a call to

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<v Speaker 1>action to say we're standing at a fork in the road.

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<v Speaker 1>There is this major inflection point at the deployment of

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<v Speaker 1>this technology as all of the major tech companies come

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<v Speaker 1>out with these products and devices, and we have choices

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<v Speaker 1>to make that could set the terms of service in

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<v Speaker 1>favor of individuals to make it something that's empowering, not

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<v Speaker 1>the dystopian or rebellian possibilities on the other side, NITA

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<v Speaker 1>are people using brain biometrics to handle real world problems

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<v Speaker 1>and diseases. I'm thinking dementia, Alzheimer's. Are there new technologies

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<v Speaker 1>and treatments that are coming to market that can impact that. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>there's some really promising ones. There was in the research

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<v Speaker 1>for the book, I came across a company in Israel

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<v Speaker 1>who are in clinical trials for the possibility of detecting

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<v Speaker 1>epileptic seizures an hour before they occur. That could be

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<v Speaker 1>incredible for people to suffer from epilepsy or ability to

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<v Speaker 1>be able to use it for depression. There's already some

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<v Speaker 1>companies that are using it to provide low levels of

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<v Speaker 1>electrical stimulation that can be transformative or neurofeedback for people

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<v Speaker 1>who have ADHD. They can use the devices to be

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<v Speaker 1>able to train their brains to have better concentration and focus,

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<v Speaker 1>and in some head to head studies against using drugs,

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<v Speaker 1>the neurofeedback is very favorable. Well. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of potential health applications and ways in which this can

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<v Speaker 1>be transformational for humanity and good ways. There's just also

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<v Speaker 1>the dystopium possibilities that we have to safeguard against and

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<v Speaker 1>those aren't minor because you know what you think, what

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<v Speaker 1>you feel. It's so fundmental to who we are. Having

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<v Speaker 1>that inner space of mental privacy and freedom of thought

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<v Speaker 1>is so critical that we just can't get it wrong

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<v Speaker 1>this time. We can't know what trade or brain war

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like right? Well, But but you've always thought

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<v Speaker 1>you had that at least right. You thought you at

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<v Speaker 1>least had your thoughts right right in a related topic.

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<v Speaker 1>So then how do you because you obviously study, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like falls under your purview when you think

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<v Speaker 1>about the work that Elon Musk is doing with neuralink,

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<v Speaker 1>and he wants to build this brain chip interface it

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<v Speaker 1>can be implanted that might help disabled patients ultimately move

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<v Speaker 1>or communicate again, or restraint vision. How does this and

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<v Speaker 1>we've got about a minute left, how do you think

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<v Speaker 1>about that? So you know, I have a chapter dedicated

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<v Speaker 1>to these implanted technologies. And while I think it'll be

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<v Speaker 1>a long time before a healthy person will choose to

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<v Speaker 1>have implanted neurotechnology, it's just not safe enough for somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who doesn't need it yet. The possibilities already are transformational

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<v Speaker 1>for people who have everything from neurodegenerative disorders like als,

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to communicate again, to being able to

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<v Speaker 1>move and have independence to interact with other technology. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>very bullish on what those companies are doing and developing

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<v Speaker 1>and how thoughtfully they're trying to develop the technology. There's

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<v Speaker 1>real risks, but there's huge up in that space and

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<v Speaker 1>it could be incredible for so many people. I have

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<v Speaker 1>to just say, my brain hurts a little bit because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to understand there's a lot going on in

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<v Speaker 1>our world, and I'm thinking that the government's listening to

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<v Speaker 1>me through my earbuds. No, it's fascinating. Nita. Hopefully you'll

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<v Speaker 1>come back soon and we can continue this conversation. Nita Farahney.

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<v Speaker 1>She is Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke Law School.

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<v Speaker 1>Her book out is The Battle for Your Brain, Defending

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<v Speaker 1>the right to think freely in the age of neurotechnology.

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<v Speaker 1>I do feel like when it comes to the brain

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<v Speaker 1>the human body, were you still learning so much? Oh? Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 1>And Carol, hopefully they're not listening to my brain and

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<v Speaker 1>wondering how I'm going to cheat on my taxes. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry if you're still listening. I would never do that.