Speaker 1: These sees Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim
Speaker 1: Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. I have to say, Damian, we
Speaker 1: were thinking about this. One of the conversations we've all
Speaker 1: been having following the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank was
Speaker 1: the uptick in social conversations ahead of the bank's takeover
Speaker 1: and how that might have contributed to the bank run
Speaker 1: on SVB. It's just kind of part of the narrative.
Speaker 1: We're living in this increasingly digital world with NonStop data
Speaker 1: collection everything we do, everything, we buy, everything, we say, everything,
Speaker 1: we think right, and we willingly contribute to contribute to it,
Speaker 1: or don't even realize the data dump that we keep doing.
Speaker 1: I came across one measure the world generating some two
Speaker 1: and a half quintillion bites per day. I don't even
Speaker 1: know what quintillion is. It's just gigantic. So with that
Speaker 1: in mind, let's bring in our guest, Nita Farahney. She
Speaker 1: is the author of the Battle for Your Brain, defending
Speaker 1: the right to think freely at the age of neurotechnology.
Speaker 1: She's Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke University, founding
Speaker 1: director the Duke Initiative for Science and Society. Delighted to
Speaker 1: have with her here via zoom Endorament, North Carolina, Nita Welcome,
Speaker 1: Welcome at TI Blomberg BusinessWeek. Carol Master with Damian sasaur
Speaker 1: So tell us about what is the Battle for our
Speaker 1: brains It's been waging for a while. First of all,
Speaker 1: it's so nice to be with you here today. But
Speaker 1: The Battle for a Brain is a book that talks
Speaker 1: about the next step in data commodification, which is commodification
Speaker 1: of our brains. So that's already happening in many ways,
Speaker 1: as all of the different platforms that we that we're
Speaker 1: on crete psychogenic profiles of us. But there's more coming,
Speaker 1: which is the coming age of consumer brain wearables. People
Speaker 1: are used to wearing already fitbits or Apple watches that
Speaker 1: have sensors that are embedded in them. What they don't
Speaker 1: have yet, although some people use them already, our sensors
Speaker 1: that track their brain activity and decode what's happening in
Speaker 1: their brains. And that's what's launching now is multifunctional devices
Speaker 1: like earbuds and headphones and watches that have neural interface
Speaker 1: pick up into code brain activity. Yeah, some of the
Speaker 1: items you address in the book, I mean for me.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me so far. Wait.
Speaker 1: So if I put on earbuds, bows, earbuds or something,
Speaker 1: you're telling me they're picking up brain activity. Not today,
Speaker 1: but they will so the you know kind of next Basically,
Speaker 1: like every major tech company from Meta that is coming
Speaker 1: out in early twenty twenty five with a watch that
Speaker 1: the primary way that you'll interact with their AAR glasses
Speaker 1: is neural interface. It'll pick up brain activity as it
Speaker 1: goes for your brain down to your rest or um.
Speaker 1: You know, companies like Neurable have headphones where they've partnered
Speaker 1: with a major headphone manufact actor, like your bows headphones
Speaker 1: um that's in the cups that go around the ears.
Speaker 1: They have sensors that pick up brain activity. And you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of goal for most of these companies is
Speaker 1: to make neural interface the kind of primary way that
Speaker 1: you interact with the rest of your technology. Like eventually
Speaker 1: you might not need a keyboarder or a mouse, but
Speaker 1: until that day, right until that day, you'll be able
Speaker 1: to track your brain activity for focus and attention and
Speaker 1: mind wandering and helpless metrics. Things that you couldn't do
Speaker 1: before suddenly will become possible and will also become possible
Speaker 1: for companies and governments, And so the battle for your
Speaker 1: brain is the kind of rush to this field to
Speaker 1: see who can really hack and track the human brain. Sanita,
Speaker 1: you mentioned brain biometrics and deciphering, you know, all that
Speaker 1: all that's going on up there, you know, But some
Speaker 1: of the items in the book that you mentioned, I mean,
Speaker 1: it should create out a minority purport, you know. I
Speaker 1: feel like Tom Cruising talking about arresting individuals for even
Speaker 1: contemplating murder, not even committing it. I mean, if that
Speaker 1: were the case, I mean, I've been arrested a long
Speaker 1: time ago. But I mean, how far away are we
Speaker 1: from having technology that can effectively read people's minds? Well,
Speaker 1: what I say to people as a defensive what you
Speaker 1: think your mind is right? So if you think of
Speaker 1: your mind is literally the inner dialogue that you're having,
Speaker 1: I think it's a long ways before these types of
Speaker 1: technologies will decode that complex thought. But already with the
Speaker 1: technology today, your basic emotional levels, your reaction to everything
Speaker 1: from pictures of political candidates that might be able to
Speaker 1: suss out what your political biases are too. If your
Speaker 1: mind is wandering when you're at work and your employer
Speaker 1: asked you to wear one of these neural devices that
Speaker 1: track your fatigue levels or your attention or your engagement
Speaker 1: or your gordom. That's already possible today, and the technology
Speaker 1: even enables probing the mind for information that's there. And
Speaker 1: so you mentioned the Minority Report, which I talk about
Speaker 1: it in the book and I always talk with my
Speaker 1: students about but it's already being used by law enforcements
Speaker 1: around the world to interrogate criminal suspects for recognition of
Speaker 1: a crime scene detail or a murderer weapon or something
Speaker 1: like that. So it's really one of the things I
Speaker 1: hope to do with the book is to just document
Speaker 1: kind of EXAs ample after example of what's already here
Speaker 1: and how much of the brain can already be decoded,
Speaker 1: and how much of it is already in use already.
Speaker 1: So within a technology, there's the good, the bad, and
Speaker 1: the ugly. What's the upside to this? It can't all
Speaker 1: be bad? Or is it all? No, No, it's really
Speaker 1: not all that I mean, right, So, first of all,
Speaker 1: I think in the hands of individuals who have control
Speaker 1: over their own brain data, suddenly the one area of
Speaker 1: our bodies. That's the most important aspect of our well being.
Speaker 1: Our brains becomes accessible to us, so you know your
Speaker 1: ability to actually start to track brain metrics and metrics
Speaker 1: of well being in health, and to know what's happening
Speaker 1: in your own brain, including by the way, how well
Speaker 1: you pay attention or focus if you're working from home
Speaker 1: or working in the workplace, or what your optimal hours are,
Speaker 1: or how you meditate effectively to bring your stress level
Speaker 1: it's down. There's a lot that these technologies can do
Speaker 1: to empower individuals, but it all depends on who has
Speaker 1: access to what's happening in your brain, how is it
Speaker 1: used or how is it misused, And that's the kind
Speaker 1: of balance that we really have to be striking. Now.
Speaker 1: That's what this book is about, is a call to
Speaker 1: action to say we're standing at a fork in the road.
Speaker 1: There is this major inflection point at the deployment of
Speaker 1: this technology as all of the major tech companies come
Speaker 1: out with these products and devices, and we have choices
Speaker 1: to make that could set the terms of service in
Speaker 1: favor of individuals to make it something that's empowering, not
Speaker 1: the dystopian or rebellian possibilities on the other side, NITA
Speaker 1: are people using brain biometrics to handle real world problems
Speaker 1: and diseases. I'm thinking dementia, Alzheimer's. Are there new technologies
Speaker 1: and treatments that are coming to market that can impact that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some really promising ones. There was in the research
Speaker 1: for the book, I came across a company in Israel
Speaker 1: who are in clinical trials for the possibility of detecting
Speaker 1: epileptic seizures an hour before they occur. That could be
Speaker 1: incredible for people to suffer from epilepsy or ability to
Speaker 1: be able to use it for depression. There's already some
Speaker 1: companies that are using it to provide low levels of
Speaker 1: electrical stimulation that can be transformative or neurofeedback for people
Speaker 1: who have ADHD. They can use the devices to be
Speaker 1: able to train their brains to have better concentration and focus,
Speaker 1: and in some head to head studies against using drugs,
Speaker 1: the neurofeedback is very favorable. Well. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of potential health applications and ways in which this can
Speaker 1: be transformational for humanity and good ways. There's just also
Speaker 1: the dystopium possibilities that we have to safeguard against and
Speaker 1: those aren't minor because you know what you think, what
Speaker 1: you feel. It's so fundmental to who we are. Having
Speaker 1: that inner space of mental privacy and freedom of thought
Speaker 1: is so critical that we just can't get it wrong
Speaker 1: this time. We can't know what trade or brain war
Speaker 1: I feel like right? Well, But but you've always thought
Speaker 1: you had that at least right. You thought you at
Speaker 1: least had your thoughts right right in a related topic.
Speaker 1: So then how do you because you obviously study, you know,
Speaker 1: I feel like falls under your purview when you think
Speaker 1: about the work that Elon Musk is doing with neuralink,
Speaker 1: and he wants to build this brain chip interface it
Speaker 1: can be implanted that might help disabled patients ultimately move
Speaker 1: or communicate again, or restraint vision. How does this and
Speaker 1: we've got about a minute left, how do you think
Speaker 1: about that? So you know, I have a chapter dedicated
Speaker 1: to these implanted technologies. And while I think it'll be
Speaker 1: a long time before a healthy person will choose to
Speaker 1: have implanted neurotechnology, it's just not safe enough for somebody
Speaker 1: who doesn't need it yet. The possibilities already are transformational
Speaker 1: for people who have everything from neurodegenerative disorders like als,
Speaker 1: to be able to communicate again, to being able to
Speaker 1: move and have independence to interact with other technology. I'm
Speaker 1: very bullish on what those companies are doing and developing
Speaker 1: and how thoughtfully they're trying to develop the technology. There's
Speaker 1: real risks, but there's huge up in that space and
Speaker 1: it could be incredible for so many people. I have
Speaker 1: to just say, my brain hurts a little bit because
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand there's a lot going on in
Speaker 1: our world, and I'm thinking that the government's listening to
Speaker 1: me through my earbuds. No, it's fascinating. Nita. Hopefully you'll
Speaker 1: come back soon and we can continue this conversation. Nita Farahney.
Speaker 1: She is Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke Law School.
Speaker 1: Her book out is The Battle for Your Brain, Defending
Speaker 1: the right to think freely in the age of neurotechnology.
Speaker 1: I do feel like when it comes to the brain
Speaker 1: the human body, were you still learning so much? Oh? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And Carol, hopefully they're not listening to my brain and
Speaker 1: wondering how I'm going to cheat on my taxes. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry if you're still listening. I would never do that.