1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: These sees Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. I have to say, Damian, we 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: were thinking about this. One of the conversations we've all 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: been having following the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank was 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: the uptick in social conversations ahead of the bank's takeover 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: and how that might have contributed to the bank run 7 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: on SVB. It's just kind of part of the narrative. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: We're living in this increasingly digital world with NonStop data 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: collection everything we do, everything, we buy, everything, we say, everything, 10 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: we think right, and we willingly contribute to contribute to it, 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: or don't even realize the data dump that we keep doing. 12 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: I came across one measure the world generating some two 13 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: and a half quintillion bites per day. I don't even 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: know what quintillion is. It's just gigantic. So with that 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: in mind, let's bring in our guest, Nita Farahney. She 16 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: is the author of the Battle for Your Brain, defending 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: the right to think freely at the age of neurotechnology. 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: She's Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke University, founding 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: director the Duke Initiative for Science and Society. Delighted to 20 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: have with her here via zoom Endorament, North Carolina, Nita Welcome, 21 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: Welcome at TI Blomberg BusinessWeek. Carol Master with Damian sasaur 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: So tell us about what is the Battle for our 23 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: brains It's been waging for a while. First of all, 24 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: it's so nice to be with you here today. But 25 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: The Battle for a Brain is a book that talks 26 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: about the next step in data commodification, which is commodification 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: of our brains. So that's already happening in many ways, 28 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: as all of the different platforms that we that we're 29 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: on crete psychogenic profiles of us. But there's more coming, 30 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: which is the coming age of consumer brain wearables. People 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 1: are used to wearing already fitbits or Apple watches that 32 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: have sensors that are embedded in them. What they don't 33 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: have yet, although some people use them already, our sensors 34 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: that track their brain activity and decode what's happening in 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: their brains. And that's what's launching now is multifunctional devices 36 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: like earbuds and headphones and watches that have neural interface 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: pick up into code brain activity. Yeah, some of the 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: items you address in the book, I mean for me. 39 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 1: Wait wait wait wait wait, you're telling me so far. Wait. 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: So if I put on earbuds, bows, earbuds or something, 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: you're telling me they're picking up brain activity. Not today, 42 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: but they will so the you know kind of next Basically, 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: like every major tech company from Meta that is coming 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: out in early twenty twenty five with a watch that 45 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: the primary way that you'll interact with their AAR glasses 46 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: is neural interface. It'll pick up brain activity as it 47 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: goes for your brain down to your rest or um. 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: You know, companies like Neurable have headphones where they've partnered 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: with a major headphone manufact actor, like your bows headphones 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 1: um that's in the cups that go around the ears. 51 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: They have sensors that pick up brain activity. And you know, 52 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: the kind of goal for most of these companies is 53 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 1: to make neural interface the kind of primary way that 54 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,880 Speaker 1: you interact with the rest of your technology. Like eventually 55 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: you might not need a keyboarder or a mouse, but 56 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: until that day, right until that day, you'll be able 57 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 1: to track your brain activity for focus and attention and 58 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: mind wandering and helpless metrics. Things that you couldn't do 59 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: before suddenly will become possible and will also become possible 60 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: for companies and governments, And so the battle for your 61 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: brain is the kind of rush to this field to 62 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: see who can really hack and track the human brain. Sanita, 63 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: you mentioned brain biometrics and deciphering, you know, all that 64 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: all that's going on up there, you know, But some 65 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: of the items in the book that you mentioned, I mean, 66 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: it should create out a minority purport, you know. I 67 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: feel like Tom Cruising talking about arresting individuals for even 68 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: contemplating murder, not even committing it. I mean, if that 69 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: were the case, I mean, I've been arrested a long 70 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: time ago. But I mean, how far away are we 71 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: from having technology that can effectively read people's minds? Well, 72 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: what I say to people as a defensive what you 73 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: think your mind is right? So if you think of 74 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: your mind is literally the inner dialogue that you're having, 75 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: I think it's a long ways before these types of 76 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: technologies will decode that complex thought. But already with the 77 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: technology today, your basic emotional levels, your reaction to everything 78 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: from pictures of political candidates that might be able to 79 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: suss out what your political biases are too. If your 80 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: mind is wandering when you're at work and your employer 81 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 1: asked you to wear one of these neural devices that 82 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: track your fatigue levels or your attention or your engagement 83 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: or your gordom. That's already possible today, and the technology 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: even enables probing the mind for information that's there. And 85 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: so you mentioned the Minority Report, which I talk about 86 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 1: it in the book and I always talk with my 87 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: students about but it's already being used by law enforcements 88 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: around the world to interrogate criminal suspects for recognition of 89 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: a crime scene detail or a murderer weapon or something 90 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: like that. So it's really one of the things I 91 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: hope to do with the book is to just document 92 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: kind of EXAs ample after example of what's already here 93 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: and how much of the brain can already be decoded, 94 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: and how much of it is already in use already. 95 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: So within a technology, there's the good, the bad, and 96 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: the ugly. What's the upside to this? It can't all 97 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: be bad? Or is it all? No, No, it's really 98 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: not all that I mean, right, So, first of all, 99 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: I think in the hands of individuals who have control 100 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: over their own brain data, suddenly the one area of 101 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: our bodies. That's the most important aspect of our well being. 102 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: Our brains becomes accessible to us, so you know your 103 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: ability to actually start to track brain metrics and metrics 104 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,840 Speaker 1: of well being in health, and to know what's happening 105 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: in your own brain, including by the way, how well 106 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: you pay attention or focus if you're working from home 107 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: or working in the workplace, or what your optimal hours are, 108 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: or how you meditate effectively to bring your stress level 109 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: it's down. There's a lot that these technologies can do 110 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: to empower individuals, but it all depends on who has 111 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: access to what's happening in your brain, how is it 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: used or how is it misused, And that's the kind 113 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: of balance that we really have to be striking. Now. 114 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: That's what this book is about, is a call to 115 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: action to say we're standing at a fork in the road. 116 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: There is this major inflection point at the deployment of 117 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: this technology as all of the major tech companies come 118 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: out with these products and devices, and we have choices 119 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: to make that could set the terms of service in 120 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: favor of individuals to make it something that's empowering, not 121 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: the dystopian or rebellian possibilities on the other side, NITA 122 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: are people using brain biometrics to handle real world problems 123 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,799 Speaker 1: and diseases. I'm thinking dementia, Alzheimer's. Are there new technologies 124 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: and treatments that are coming to market that can impact that. Yeah, 125 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: there's some really promising ones. There was in the research 126 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: for the book, I came across a company in Israel 127 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: who are in clinical trials for the possibility of detecting 128 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: epileptic seizures an hour before they occur. That could be 129 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: incredible for people to suffer from epilepsy or ability to 130 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 1: be able to use it for depression. There's already some 131 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: companies that are using it to provide low levels of 132 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: electrical stimulation that can be transformative or neurofeedback for people 133 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: who have ADHD. They can use the devices to be 134 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: able to train their brains to have better concentration and focus, 135 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: and in some head to head studies against using drugs, 136 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: the neurofeedback is very favorable. Well. So there's a lot 137 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: of potential health applications and ways in which this can 138 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: be transformational for humanity and good ways. There's just also 139 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: the dystopium possibilities that we have to safeguard against and 140 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: those aren't minor because you know what you think, what 141 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: you feel. It's so fundmental to who we are. Having 142 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: that inner space of mental privacy and freedom of thought 143 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: is so critical that we just can't get it wrong 144 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: this time. We can't know what trade or brain war 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: I feel like right? Well, But but you've always thought 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: you had that at least right. You thought you at 147 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: least had your thoughts right right in a related topic. 148 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: So then how do you because you obviously study, you know, 149 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: I feel like falls under your purview when you think 150 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: about the work that Elon Musk is doing with neuralink, 151 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: and he wants to build this brain chip interface it 152 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: can be implanted that might help disabled patients ultimately move 153 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: or communicate again, or restraint vision. How does this and 154 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: we've got about a minute left, how do you think 155 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: about that? So you know, I have a chapter dedicated 156 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: to these implanted technologies. And while I think it'll be 157 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: a long time before a healthy person will choose to 158 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: have implanted neurotechnology, it's just not safe enough for somebody 159 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: who doesn't need it yet. The possibilities already are transformational 160 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: for people who have everything from neurodegenerative disorders like als, 161 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: to be able to communicate again, to being able to 162 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: move and have independence to interact with other technology. I'm 163 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: very bullish on what those companies are doing and developing 164 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: and how thoughtfully they're trying to develop the technology. There's 165 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: real risks, but there's huge up in that space and 166 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: it could be incredible for so many people. I have 167 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: to just say, my brain hurts a little bit because 168 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand there's a lot going on in 169 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: our world, and I'm thinking that the government's listening to 170 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: me through my earbuds. No, it's fascinating. Nita. Hopefully you'll 171 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,239 Speaker 1: come back soon and we can continue this conversation. Nita Farahney. 172 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: She is Professor of Law and Philosophy at Duke Law School. 173 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: Her book out is The Battle for Your Brain, Defending 174 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: the right to think freely in the age of neurotechnology. 175 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: I do feel like when it comes to the brain 176 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: the human body, were you still learning so much? Oh? Absolutely? 177 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: And Carol, hopefully they're not listening to my brain and 178 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: wondering how I'm going to cheat on my taxes. I'm 179 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: sorry if you're still listening. I would never do that.