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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, an animal rights activist who

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Speaker 1: helped to free a bear from a trap, will spend

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Speaker 1: a couple of weeks in jail. Catherine McCartney, who's from Vernon,

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Speaker 1: is appealing the sentence. However, she and another man helped

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Speaker 1: the young bear escape back in October. Those traps were

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Speaker 1: put in place after some nearby residents say bears charged

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Speaker 1: at them on two separate occasions. You are hearing from

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Speaker 1: our friends. It needs to all of them New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: I'm all about everybody doing a little bit of probation.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it hurts anybody, and maybe a little

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Speaker 1: jail time once in a while. But wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: This lady freeze a crying beer cub from a trap

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Speaker 1: and she gets jail time sentence what wait, well, hold on, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: you're here in the studio with me, Jackie Howard. Aren't

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Speaker 1: there murderers and rapists and drug dealers and lester's walking

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Speaker 1: around free right now? Okay? And she gets ya all time.

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Speaker 1: I mean, see Grays this Descrime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us and joining you right now. An all

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Speaker 1: star panel starting with the New Jersey woman who gets

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Speaker 1: jail sentence for freeing a crying baby bear cub. Katherine

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Speaker 1: McCartney also with me, Mark Nigglehout, the man who helped

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Speaker 1: her free the beera cub. Doris Lynn, director of Legal Affairs,

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Speaker 1: Animal Protection League, New Jersey, doctor Gray Stafford, our friend,

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Speaker 1: animal trainers, zoologists, host of Zoologic podcast, Penny Douglas fur

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Speaker 1: longtime attorney and animal activists and joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter, author of Beautiful Life,

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Speaker 1: the CSI behind the Casey Anthony trial on Amazon. Rob

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Speaker 1: Mleski Robin, How did a lovely lady with no record,

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Speaker 1: no rap sheet, no nothing, end up with jailed time

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Speaker 1: for freeing a baby bear cub? Well, here's the story, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: For full disclosure, I am from New Jersey. I was

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Speaker 1: born there. I've been dealing with, you know, bears and

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Speaker 1: deer and fox and wild turkeys that would attack the

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Speaker 1: cars on my parents' driveway and gnaw at the rubber tires.

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Speaker 1: So animals are a real problem in the garden state.

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Speaker 1: That all said, Now, wait a minute, and wait a minute.

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Speaker 1: I imagine Rob in Wilensky, that the animals would say,

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Speaker 1: people are a real problem in the garden state, they

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Speaker 1: part their cars, we have to go gnaw on them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it never ends with these people. Why won't

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Speaker 1: they go away? We were here first, you see where

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Speaker 1: I'm coming from. So other than the wild turkeys gnawing

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Speaker 1: at your tire, go ahead. And my childhood home backed

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Speaker 1: up on a reservation. So that all said, I do

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Speaker 1: love animals, but the bears, of all the animals I

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Speaker 1: just listed, Nancy, are the biggest problem because they can

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Speaker 1: attack and eat you, not just your garbage. They're sniffing around.

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Speaker 1: You have to have special garbage cans and make sure

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Speaker 1: that the lids are affixed to the top because they

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Speaker 1: love food. So that all said. The state has had

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Speaker 1: bear hunts over the years, then some governors stopped them,

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Speaker 1: then other governors started them. There's lots of bears roaming around.

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Speaker 1: Some traps were set by the environmental folks from the state.

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Speaker 1: And this woman fifty years old who heard the bear

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Speaker 1: crying the cub felt sorry for it, and boy, I

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Speaker 1: have to say, I really wow commend her. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: go out there and go near the bear and let

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Speaker 1: it free. So I'd love to hear about how that happened. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me understand something Robin will Lensky. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: all about following the law. You know. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to even be a part of anything against the law.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be near it. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be around it. I go the other way. But

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Speaker 1: I understand and that the EPA. Remember I worked for

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Speaker 1: the Department of Natural Resources little known fact when I

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Speaker 1: was in law school as an intern. I certainly did.

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Speaker 1: And the trap set by the Environmental Protection those are

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Speaker 1: to stop bears from hurting people. I didn't know they

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Speaker 1: were designed to torture the animal. I mean, you got

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Speaker 1: a baby in a trap, it's hurting and it's crying.

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Speaker 1: How often do they check the traps? Is the animals

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Speaker 1: just supposed to be there and die and starve, bleed

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Speaker 1: in pain? Is that what environmental protection is about? And

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Speaker 1: if so, who is it protecting? I mean, that's a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions. That's what we call it, the law,

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Speaker 1: a compound question. I can tell you what. I can

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Speaker 1: tell you what the problem meant. Kathy, again, I want

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Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us. Go right ahead, Okay,

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Speaker 1: the problem is not with the bears. But the first

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Speaker 1: of all, there's not as many bears as people may

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Speaker 1: want you to think. I lived in bear country for

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Speaker 1: fifteen years, and the truths we almost never see them.

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Speaker 1: The problem is the New Jersey Division of Fish and Wildlife.

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Speaker 1: They don't enforce garbage control in bear country. And as

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Speaker 1: everybody knows, the bears are attracted to garbage because there's

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Speaker 1: food stuff and food waste in the garbage that they

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Speaker 1: like to eat. So instead of handing out summons, is

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Speaker 1: what the Division of Fish and Wildlife does is they

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Speaker 1: set these traps. They usually kill the bears that they

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Speaker 1: deem as nuisances, and then they take all of those

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Speaker 1: incidences and they use it to justify black bear trophy hunting.

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Speaker 1: So really Fish and Wildlife is at the they're the problem.

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Speaker 1: And I hold them responsible for virtually every unwanted bear

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Speaker 1: encounter in our state because they're not doing their job.

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Speaker 1: And the cub was caught in one of these traps,

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Speaker 1: you know, Kathie, Yeah, Yeah, that's what I want to

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Speaker 1: get to. I want to ask you and Mark what

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Speaker 1: happened that day, and I want to just put it

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Speaker 1: out there. I want to hear exactly what happened that day.

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Speaker 1: And they will be joined by Grace Stafford and Doris Lynn.

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Speaker 1: So Kathy, you start, okay. Um, we were aware that

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Speaker 1: there was that they were trapped in the area. Everybody

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Speaker 1: was so um Mark and I we originally wanted to

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Speaker 1: just go there to document um. However, the sounds of

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Speaker 1: the bear crying for his mother were so upsetting, and

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Speaker 1: it just it made us realize. I mean, we know

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Speaker 1: that the situation was wrong, but it just made us

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Speaker 1: realize that this is so wrong and this baby just

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Speaker 1: needed to be reunited with his mother. And um, we

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Speaker 1: knew that the mother and her other cubs were in

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Speaker 1: the area, we were not uh, we were not worried

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Speaker 1: that she was going to hurt us, because they just

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Speaker 1: don't do that. Right there. Hold On Gray Stafford, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Gray Stafford, host of Zoologic podcast, wants to jump in.

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Speaker 1: He's chomping out the bit. Now. I don't know a lot,

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Speaker 1: but I do know that bears will eat you, Gray.

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Speaker 1: I do know that the black bears are very timid

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Speaker 1: black bear black bears are very timid animals. And we

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Speaker 1: obviously we came out unscathed. She just wanted her baby

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Speaker 1: back and that's what we That's okay, and you know what,

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Speaker 1: doctor Gray Stafford. Hold On one moment to Doctor Gray Stafford,

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Speaker 1: animal trainer, a PhD zoologist hosted Zoologic podcast Doctor Gray

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Speaker 1: Stafford Number one, I think bears eat you. Maybe I'm wrong,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what I'm talking about, and I

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Speaker 1: completely if it doesn't have crime scene tape around it,

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Speaker 1: I don't really know that much about it. So Doctor

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Speaker 1: Gray Stafford, I think bears will eat you. Catherine and Mark,

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Speaker 1: I think risks a lot life and limb. But Doctor

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Speaker 1: Gray won't bears eat you much less a mommy bear

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Speaker 1: who you're messing with her cub bear techs are rather rare. However,

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Speaker 1: they're very dangerous animals, and I would disagree with your

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Speaker 1: because a threatened mom, a protective mom. I mean, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: you're a protective mom. I wouldn't want to tangle with

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Speaker 1: you if one of your children were at risk. So

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Speaker 1: I think that they put themselves at serious risk of

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Speaker 1: being hurt by this female. We don't know what she

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Speaker 1: would have done and if she was in the area,

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Speaker 1: they took a very big risk which could have risked

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Speaker 1: the lives of other people as well, including any park

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Speaker 1: rangers that were intervened. Now, hold on that, when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about bear attacks, Katherine and Mark chose knowing about

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Speaker 1: the bears in their area, they were willing to accept

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Speaker 1: that risk to save the baby. Got a couple of

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Speaker 1: questions for you, but hold on. Doris Land won an

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Speaker 1: end director of legal fairs at Animal Protection League Knee Jersey.

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Speaker 1: Hit me, Doris. If you look at the facts, black

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Speaker 1: bear attacks are extremely rare. You are actually two hundred

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Speaker 1: times more likely to die in a hunting accident. You

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Speaker 1: are more likely to die from a vending machine falling

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Speaker 1: on you. So I think we need to put this

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Speaker 1: in perspective. You have to have teeth and claws, but

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Speaker 1: they are extremely timid and attacks are extremely rare. I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: Doris Land, but you stopped me when you said teeth

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Speaker 1: and claws. Animal rights groups rally against the state sanctioned

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Speaker 1: bear hunt this weekend. Oh no, we're here to say.

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Speaker 1: Protesters say they've launched a public media campaign against the

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Speaker 1: annual bear hunt. They're urging Governor Murphy to keep his

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Speaker 1: vow of putting an end to the hunt. That demonstration

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Speaker 1: taking place in Middletown yesterday, where the governor lives. Men

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Speaker 1: in the woods with guns shooting creatures that might work

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Speaker 1: in Alaska or Colorado or Sunthing. But New Jersey is

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Speaker 1: a very densely populated state, and we just think there's

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Speaker 1: a better there's a better policy to eliminate unwanted human

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Speaker 1: and bear encounters. A billboard also went up in Middletown

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Speaker 1: urging the end of the hunt. You know you were

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Speaker 1: just hearing from our friends at news to help New

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Speaker 1: Jersey what we're talking about right now. Bear related and

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Speaker 1: animal rights activists freeze a crying baby bear cub from

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Speaker 1: a trap and gets a jail sentence. She says she

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Speaker 1: made a moral decision so he could quote run back

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Speaker 1: to his mother. I don't know, Penny Douglas, fur veteran,

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, an animal activist. I've got Katherine McCartney with me,

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Speaker 1: the woman who released the bear to the wild, Mark

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Speaker 1: and Nagelhout who helped her. Doris Lynn Legal Affairs, Animal Protection,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey doctor Grace Afford, Robin Willinsky, Penny Douglas, you

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Speaker 1: know how I am about the children. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I even hear a baby cry or a child cry,

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Speaker 1: it's I can hardly stand it. I can hardly stand it,

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Speaker 1: and it bothered me before I had the twins. But

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Speaker 1: now when I hear a child cry, it's it's instinctive.

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Speaker 1: I can't help it. So, Penny, when Kathy hears the

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Speaker 1: baby bear crying, what is she supposed to do? Just

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Speaker 1: sit there and wait for them to get around to

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Speaker 1: getting the bear out of the trap. Oh, I absolutely

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Speaker 1: would have done exactly what she did. And I think

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Speaker 1: the problem here, And I'm not a New Jersey lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but I think the problem here is it's probably an

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Speaker 1: ordinance violation and you can't get a jury trial. I

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Speaker 1: think if she had a jury trial, no jury would

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Speaker 1: ever convict her for letting a baby bear out. I

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Speaker 1: don't care what the laws is. I think in that

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Speaker 1: kind of case you would have jury nullification. Well, hold on,

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Speaker 1: I got a problem, Penny. Here in the stadium. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to focus, but I've got Jackie Howard making all

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Speaker 1: sorts of faces and spinning. What is your problem, Jackie?

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Speaker 1: Bears are a lot more dangerous than they realize. Okay,

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Speaker 1: then they realize since you see a bear when you

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Speaker 1: go up to Cherokee, North Carolina, and you feed once

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Speaker 1: and peanuts through a cage, what experience do you have

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Speaker 1: with a bear? I grew up on a farm we

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Speaker 1: had bears on the farm. Where where did you grow up?

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Speaker 1: And how many bears did you see five in your life? Okay,

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Speaker 1: Robert Wilenski, I rest my case, Robert Wilenski, give me

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Speaker 1: the bear stats real quickly. Well, I want to say

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Speaker 1: that I saw a bear once, Nancy, when I was

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Speaker 1: a camper, when I lived in Jersey. I go to

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Speaker 1: camp in Pennsylvania and there was a bear once standing

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Speaker 1: up on a tennis court. That was it for me.

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Speaker 1: I just want to get that out. But the statistics

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Speaker 1: are that in the don't the tennis court is their

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Speaker 1: natural habitat, But go ahead. The bear stats are such

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Speaker 1: that until you know nineteen seventy, there wasn't really a

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Speaker 1: bear problem because there was always a hunt in New

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Speaker 1: Jersey up until nineteen seventy. Then you got into this

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Speaker 1: whole point. Why do you keep calling it a bear problem.

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Speaker 1: They're living on the earth with us. There's they have

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Speaker 1: a right to be here. Okay, why is it a problem?

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Speaker 1: Their interaction with the Garden State residence appears to be

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Speaker 1: a huge problem. But you mean aiding them, yes, become

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Speaker 1: a political football, Nancy. Between so after nineteen seventy you

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Speaker 1: get into Democratic governors and Republican governors, and some are

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Speaker 1: pro gun and pro and ra and some are against,

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Speaker 1: and back and forth and back and forth. So now,

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Speaker 1: currently in the state of New Jersey, we have a

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Speaker 1: governor Murphy. Governor Murphy who is the current governor, who's

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Speaker 1: a Democrat. Last summer August of twenty eighteen, he signed

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Speaker 1: an executive order in the state and what he did

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Speaker 1: was he said no more bear hunting on all state

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Speaker 1: owned lands. However, dot dot dot environmental folks are not

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Speaker 1: happy with this. They think it only goes half measure Nancy,

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Speaker 1: because just because the state of New Jersey has plenty

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Speaker 1: of county parks and other areas where the bears are

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Speaker 1: roaming free. I want to go back to the day

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Speaker 1: Mark Nagel hout that you helped Catherine save the baby bear.

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Speaker 1: What happened? Mark, start at the beginning, you know, let me,

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Speaker 1: let me, let me interject here. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: here to talk about bear attacks. This has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with bear attacks. The problem is the division of

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Speaker 1: fish and wildlife. They do not enforce garbage control in

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Speaker 1: bear country. We can't say that bears are problem and

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Speaker 1: then have our state authorities not enforced garbage control. They

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Speaker 1: can't have it two ways. They can't have it two ways,

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Speaker 1: so they must enforce garbage control. So what happened that

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Speaker 1: morning that day mark Well, from my perspective, it broke

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Speaker 1: my heart to hear the bear cub crying. And what

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Speaker 1: amazed me also was seeing Mom and the other cubs

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Speaker 1: stay in the area the entire time, and I wasn't

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Speaker 1: scared for one second. I've been around bears. I've got

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Speaker 1: family that were around bears for thirty years. They lived

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Speaker 1: with bears in Sussex County. They never had a bear attack,

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Speaker 1: they never had any issues like that. They lost one

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Speaker 1: bird feeder, they had one garbage can carried across the street.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't even opened. So they learned to live alongside

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Speaker 1: bears for thirty years. And I think you have a question,

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Speaker 1: why won't anybody tell me what happened that day? Well? What?

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Speaker 1: What What amazed me also was again to Cathy's point,

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Speaker 1: in the division e Ficial Wildlife, where this bear trap

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Speaker 1: was placed. It was placed where people park their cars

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Speaker 1: and where this broken dumpster was. So another thing that

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Speaker 1: I observed was this bear in these cubs, and this

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Speaker 1: really broke my heart too, seeing the mama bear and

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Speaker 1: cubs walk and actually jump on the dumpster because they

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Speaker 1: knew that was an easy food stores. And that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: That's the Kathy's point. I agree. The real problem is

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Speaker 1: garbage containment, and nothing is done about it. And I

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Speaker 1: keep asking what happened the day you saved the bear,

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Speaker 1: and nobody will tell me. Do I have to go

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Speaker 1: to the reporter to ask her what happened to you

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Speaker 1: that day? Or can you tell me what happened that day? Well, well,

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Speaker 1: I helped Kathy open the trap and the cub ran

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Speaker 1: the mom So okay, okay, that's pretty general. Let me

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Speaker 1: just start with a couple of cross examination questions. What

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Speaker 1: time of the day was it light or dark? Well,

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Speaker 1: it was dark and we were there, weren't we weren't

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Speaker 1: there to open the trap. I was there actually for

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Speaker 1: the record, My wife Kim was there with me as well,

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Speaker 1: and we were there that night to document the incident,

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Speaker 1: and Kathy joined us as well to document. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're saying. You were there, see

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Speaker 1: I thought you guys heard the bear and it broke

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Speaker 1: your heart, and you went and helped him out. So

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Speaker 1: when you say you were there to document in the incident,

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Speaker 1: you made to document that you were going to say

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Speaker 1: this bear no, No, we knew the trap was there

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Speaker 1: because someone went to the police department and claimed that

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Speaker 1: this bear charged at him. And bears are known for

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Speaker 1: doing bluff charges. It doesn't mean they're going to attack.

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Speaker 1: And this man injured himself because he tripped as he

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Speaker 1: was running away from the bear. And so the division

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Speaker 1: official Wildlife responded by setting up a trap for the bear,

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Speaker 1: even though the bear attacked no one. And so that's

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Speaker 1: how we knew the travels there. Guys. I've been looking

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Speaker 1: at the stats, and I'm looking at a website called

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Speaker 1: Alaska Life dot com, and it's a number of deaths

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Speaker 1: in the US per year. Cardiovascular almost a million, transportation,

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Speaker 1: about fifty thousand, drowning, about four thousand, hypothermia, about seven

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Speaker 1: hundred West Nile virus, about one hundred and twenty, hornet

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Speaker 1: bee wasp stings, about fifty snake bites, about five bear

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Speaker 1: attacks two. So you're more likely to die from the

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Speaker 1: West Nile virus or from freezing to death, or from

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Speaker 1: a snake bite or a hornet bee or waspting than

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Speaker 1: a bear attack. Interesting, Yes, and that's what you include

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Speaker 1: grizzly bears, so that that's not even you know, black bears.

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Speaker 1: I mean that you know, that's all bears, Nancy. In

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Speaker 1: North America, in the last twenty years, between nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: seven and twenty seventeen, there have been twenty five fatal

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Speaker 1: black bear attacks, and three of them in the US,

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Speaker 1: two in Alaska and actually one in New Jersey back

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Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen in West Milford. Now hold on, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, Robin, I'm trying to digest your stats. You said,

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Speaker 1: how many deaths over how many years? Twenty five? Wow,

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Speaker 1: between nineteen ninety seven and twenty seventeen, So in a

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Speaker 1: twenty year period, twenty years. Yeah, that's about right. That's

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Speaker 1: the same stat about two people a year. Crime stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. I want to get back to the

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Speaker 1: day or the night as you're now telling me that

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Speaker 1: you saved the bay be bear. Don't talk about anything

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Speaker 1: about garbage cans, about DNR environmental protection. Nothing. I want

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Speaker 1: to hear about how you rescued the baby bear. Cathy. Um,

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Speaker 1: it was raining, it was dark, Mark and I were

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Speaker 1: there with his wife Kim and Um. We wanted to video,

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Speaker 1: and the cries of the bear was something like I

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Speaker 1: had just never heard before. It was like a very

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Speaker 1: sad moaning. I can't explain it. It just yeah, it

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Speaker 1: almost sounds like the bear. It almost no Mark, You're right,

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Speaker 1: It almost sounds like the bear was calling MA. I know.

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Speaker 1: And it was just I almost started to cry. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of people would laugh at that,

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Speaker 1: but doctor Gray Stafford, you have dealt with so many animals,

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Speaker 1: host of Zoologic podcast, don't laugh at me, because this happened.

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Speaker 1: My dog that I had all the way through law

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Speaker 1: school actually several times said hello. He said hello. I

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Speaker 1: heard him say hello. I mean it was barking. But

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Speaker 1: I can't really describe it. But it sounds maybe sure,

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Speaker 1: I know that I probably, you know, put not imagined it,

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Speaker 1: but I interpreted it to sound like a word. But

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Speaker 1: it did it did. It sounded like a word. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was from a dog, but it sounded like a word.

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Speaker 1: So what she says, it sounded like it was saying MA.

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Speaker 1: I totally believe that. I believe Well, certainly animals can

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Speaker 1: mimic sounds, so I'm not surprised your dog might have,

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Speaker 1: you know, learned a mimic sounds and here's regularly. But

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Speaker 1: I got to go back something that was said earlier,

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Speaker 1: and that is the there was a report that the

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Speaker 1: animal was in the in the area and could have

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Speaker 1: been posing a risk. The Department of Natural Resources would

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Speaker 1: have been derelict in its duty had it not intervened,

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Speaker 1: had it not set a trap to evaluate the animal

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Speaker 1: and relocate them. It didn't know if it was a

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Speaker 1: male or female, or with cubs. It had a duty

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Speaker 1: to go out there and investigate. Well, I agree with you,

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Speaker 1: doctor Gray Stafford. Their their duty, their duty. It's to

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Speaker 1: a forced garbage can hold on guys, that's their duty.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you. If a human life is in danger,

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Speaker 1: the DNR has to act. That is their duty. What

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Speaker 1: I don't understand is why an animal is left in

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Speaker 1: a trap to suffer. So, Kathy and Mark that evening,

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Speaker 1: when you go out, you know this trap is there,

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Speaker 1: you know there's a baby bear in it, you document it.

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Speaker 1: So what kind of a trap wasn't Well, it was

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Speaker 1: what they call like a barrel trap. So it's like

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Speaker 1: a metal drum looks like a metal drum on its side.

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Speaker 1: So what happens is the bear is baited in um,

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Speaker 1: they go in the trap and then the door closes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: And so there wasn't like a saw closed over his foot.

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Speaker 1: He was just in a barrel. Right, that's correct. But

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Speaker 1: it's again separating, separating from the rest of the Let

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Speaker 1: me ask you how long had the baby been in

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Speaker 1: the barrel? Do you think about an hour? Okay? So

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Speaker 1: what happened then? See, in my mind, I thought it

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Speaker 1: was a bear trap like I've seen on TV. And yes,

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Speaker 1: I worked at Department Natural Resources, but I was mostly

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Speaker 1: dealing with on the beach side, Penny Douglas fur down

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Speaker 1: at Saint Simon's Island about trying to preserve the beach.

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Speaker 1: So that's what I was working on. I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about bear traps, and I had imagined the type

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Speaker 1: you see on TV where you step in it and

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Speaker 1: then a thing that looks like jaws made of you know,

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Speaker 1: like a saw, capture the animal. But you're telling me

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Speaker 1: it's like a drum. Yeah, it's called a culvert trap.

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Speaker 1: It's called a culvert trap. But what happens is the

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Speaker 1: Division efficient Wildlife they usually they kill those bears after

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Speaker 1: they capture them. And they consider them nuisancepairs. However, it's

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Speaker 1: the Division of Fish and Wildlife that creates the US

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Speaker 1: that creates the nuisance spairs. Because I know you're back

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Speaker 1: to the garbage, I understand. Let me understand something, because

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Speaker 1: I had a completely when I entered this program. I

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Speaker 1: was imagining a baby bear cub, whether it's foot sliced

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Speaker 1: open by you know, bear trap that looked like a saw.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm understanding, he's lured in by a bait trap

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Speaker 1: and he's in like a barrel. And he had been

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Speaker 1: in there for about an hour. Now the Department of

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Speaker 1: Natural Resources or Division of Fish and Wildlife, they say

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Speaker 1: they come and they released him every hour. Is that true?

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Speaker 1: So he would have only been in there an hour.

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Speaker 1: He was in there at least an hour. He was

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Speaker 1: in there at least an hour that we know of,

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Speaker 1: and had we not let him out and the cops

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Speaker 1: have not called them, we don't know when they would

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Speaker 1: have come. But when they would have come, we don't

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Speaker 1: know what they would have done with him. We know

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Speaker 1: that they kills that they catch, and we know that

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Speaker 1: they have in the past taken the orphan bears and

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Speaker 1: just abandoned them to fund for themselves without their mother.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted that baby safe with his mother, and

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Speaker 1: we wanted the whole family out of the area. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: can I make a point? Can I just make a yeah?

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Speaker 1: Jump in? I want to know how you got it

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Speaker 1: back to the mom? I mean, how a mom stood

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Speaker 1: by while you tampered with her baby. Because I'm very interested.

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Speaker 1: This is not a trick question. I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: trap you. I'm just trying to find out what happened

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Speaker 1: because everything I thought is completely wrong and I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: it all now for the first time. So how did

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Speaker 1: you get it back to its mom? Mark? Well, the

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Speaker 1: bear just ran right out, ran right out to mom.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, again, my wife was documenting the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: so she saw the bear run out of the trap

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Speaker 1: and run right to where mom and the other cubs were.

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Speaker 1: So and I just want to make another point. How

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Speaker 1: close were you to the mom and the cubs? How

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Speaker 1: close were you to the mom? I'm in the cabin

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Speaker 1: estimated ten maybe they to thirty feet? So wow, But

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Speaker 1: you're right, Okay, I think a lot of people would

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Speaker 1: do the same thing. And just another point. You know

426
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: the Division official Wildlife, they use a category system for bears.

427
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: So what they deemed to be um to Cathy's point,

428
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: but they don't deem to be UM. Bears that are threats,

429
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: and that's you know, can be debatable if they're really

430
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: a threat or not. Under the category system, they can

431
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 1: be killed. So in this case, you had it, you

432
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: had it open dumpster um right by where people walk

433
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: to their cars and throw their garbage out. People could

434
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: see that as a threat and that would get these

435
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: innocent bears killed. So again, the real problem again is

436
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 1: the attractant, the initial problem. Um, it's these problems are

437
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: handled correctly. Um, okay, can I just mention right now

438
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: to Kathy and Mark? I get it. I get the garbage.

439
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 1: I get that there is a garbage problem and the

440
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: bears come to it, and the garbage is not being controlled,

441
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: and therefore the bears are attracted and they shouldn't be

442
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: shouldn't get the death penalty because they went to eat

443
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: some garbage. I get it. I understand completely. Two Penny Douglas,

444
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: For I'm looking at the so called culvert trap. It's

445
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: actually huge. It's about the size of um golly. It

446
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: looks like it's a large It looks like it's maybe

447
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: ten or eleven feet long and it's about three or

448
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: four feet tall. I mean I could totally go in

449
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: there and go to sleep. And Yancy's it's the bare

450
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: equivalent of a have a heart trap that you might

451
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: use around your house for smaller wildlife or for a

452
00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: feral cat. Okay, I live and let live back to you.

453
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: Kathy McCartney, the New Jersey woman sent us to jail

454
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: for freeing a bear. Come. You know I started this

455
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: off by saying, no record, no rap sheet, no nothing.

456
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: But of course the anti bear person here is telling

457
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: me you have been let me just say observed or

458
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: it has been suggested that you have done this before.

459
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: Peaceful civil disobedience out of protest. Peaceful protests. I'm sure

460
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: the Department of Natural Resources doesn't think it's so peaceful

461
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: when they have one guy claiming got charged by a bear,

462
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: and you are hearing this baby bear crying for its mommy.

463
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question. Kathy McCartney and Mark Nagelhut,

464
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: if I heard a pet, or an animal, not a pet, crying,

465
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: I would want to help it too. So my question

466
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: to you is, Kathy, how did you happen to know

467
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: the bear was in the trap, if it had been

468
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: there for about you knew of it being there for

469
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: about an hour. Were you actually on a steakout waiting

470
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 1: for a bear to get in the trap so you

471
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: can release No, it's very common that that's Fish and

472
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 1: Wilife sets traps. This is bear country, and we know

473
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: that there are bears in the area, and you know,

474
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: news travels very fast, so a lot of people knew

475
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: about these traps. And it's not the first time that

476
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: the division has set traps. They've been doing it for years.

477
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: And this is the way they operate. They don't do

478
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: their jobs, they don't enforce garbage control. They wait for

479
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: bears to get into trouble, they set traps, they kill them,

480
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: they promote fear, and then they use that to say

481
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: we need to hunt them because they are in the division.

482
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife is in the business of trophy hunting.

483
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 1: So were you waiting Mark to free a bear? Were

484
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 1: you waiting to free a bear mark, or did you

485
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 1: really hear a baby bear crying and happen to go

486
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: out there with video or whatever to document it. At

487
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: that precise moment, you happen to have your wife notebook

488
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: and pen in hand to go and free the baby bear.

489
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: To what happened, I'll answer. I'll answer that a second,

490
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: but first I just want to say on the culvert traps,

491
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: I call them bart traps whatever, but culver traps, there's

492
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: different sizes. Okay. So this was the second culvert trap

493
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: that was set in this complex. The first one was

494
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: set on the other side of the complex, right near

495
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: the main road to get in there, which was an

496
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: odd place for it to be. It's almost like fish

497
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: and Wildlife wanted that first trap to be spotted, and

498
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: that was a bigger trap. This one that we were

499
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: by and that we opened was smaller, and I don't

500
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 1: believe it was big enough for a full size for

501
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: a mom a bear to be caught. I believe it's designed.

502
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: I could be wrong, but I believe it's designed to

503
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: catch a smaller bear, a smaller cup, which in that

504
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: case would would would draw obviously draw a mom and

505
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: the other cups to the to the area. You know,

506
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this thing through. Okay. Can I get you

507
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: back to that question now? Yes, yes, So we were

508
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: there to answer a question, We were there to document,

509
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: We were there before any any bears were caught in

510
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: the trap, so we were just going a document. Nancy.

511
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: I think what they're saying is because they're putting all

512
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: these traps out there, they're just there because they're activists

513
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: and they're trying to document any bears that are in

514
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: traps that they're trying to get. Penny, I just got

515
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: any fact. This is not a bear out in the wild.

516
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: This is at the Great George Village kindominium complex where

517
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: children are, and that's a lot different than being out

518
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: in the woods. Penny. The problem is with you. I

519
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 1: get it. I get it about the trash. Now, I

520
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: understand what I'm going to say. What I'm saying is

521
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: it's a big difference. I mean, you have a good

522
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: sense to keep your pack of wild funeral rot wilders

523
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: in the house, and they tacked the door. Every time

524
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: I knock on it, I think that's my last breath.

525
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: I see nothing but fames and teeth and saliva tug

526
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: and fur through your door. This is the problem because

527
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: the bears were there when the condos come in, and

528
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: when the homes come in, all the animals were already

529
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: there and we're running them out of their home and

530
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: they're coming because we've taken their space away and they're

531
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: just trying to get the food and come into our

532
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: trash cans. I know they are. What do you do,

533
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: Grace Stafford? What do you do when a mama bear

534
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 1: comes to get the trash and there's a three year

535
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: old standing there? What happens then? Grace Stafford? Exactly and Nancy,

536
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: and we're talking about New Jersey. But when you look

537
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: around the world, human animal conflict is a serious problem.

538
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: Someone is killed by a wild animal every single day,

539
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: and so DNR has a difficult task ahead of them. Yes,

540
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: we need to educate the public about trash, but we

541
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: also have to manage the relationship between wildlife and people.

542
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: As human populations grow in natural habitats shrink and there's

543
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: some a balance has to be formed somewhere, and otherwise

544
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: you're going to talk about more and more bear attacks.

545
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: That's just the reality. So DNR has an unenviable job.

546
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: But to intervene into to kind of confound what they're

547
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: trying to do, Uh, Sam, doesn't solve them, you know, Nancy,

548
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: Here's here's my thing. This is a radio program, not

549
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: a television show, and just so for the audience, So

550
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: they understand what these traps look like. This is not

551
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: a trap when you are in your house and you

552
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: have a mice or a rat problem and you put

553
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: a little piece of cheese or peanut butter and it

554
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: goes clicks and it goes the little trap thingy goes

555
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: over the little mouse and your mouth is dead and

556
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: you throw it in the garbage. This is not that.

557
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: This is not catching the bear's foot in a trap.

558
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 1: I think people are visualizing this trap like when you

559
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: catch mice. This is not that. This is a large

560
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: silver cylinder where the bear actually crawls in and you

561
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: no longer can visually see the bear once it is

562
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: inside the silver cylinder, so humans know that this is there,

563
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: and then the bear gets trapped in the cylinder. I'm

564
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: looking right at it, and you can go to crime

565
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: online dot com and see a photo of it. In fact,

566
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I see Kathy McCartney and Mark Naglehount

567
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: in this picture and the there's a big sign that

568
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: says danger bear trap, keep away. And to you Mark,

569
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: it looks like the trap comes up to about your shoulders.

570
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: But you know what I'm seeing. I'm seeing a front

571
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: shot of it, and you are lifting it up, so

572
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: I don't know how tall it really is because you're

573
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: lifting up the front door and so you've got it

574
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: up to about your shoulders. I don't know how big

575
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: the trap really is because I can't see past the front.

576
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, I mean, doctor Gray Stafford. Well,

577
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, let me go to Doris Land on this

578
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: Doris jail time. Now again, this is not Kathy McCartney's

579
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: first time at the rodeo. She's no stranger to animal activism.

580
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: She was arrested at bear hunt protests twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen.

581
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: So is that why the judge gave her jail's hunt. Yes,

582
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: it was because she had these past violations. But you know,

583
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 1: I need to interject here that the Division of Fish

584
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: and Wildlife is not this benevolent environment protecting organization. The

585
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: Division of Fish and Wildlife is run by hunters. Four hunters.

586
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: By statute, the eleven number of Fishing Game Council has

587
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: to have six numbers who are hunters, and they are

588
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: chosen by hunting clubs in New Jersey, and they make

589
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: money by selling hunting licenses. If you look in their

590
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: own magazine, the twenty fourteen New Jersey Hunting trap and digests.

591
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: If there's an article called create a new Tradition Hunt

592
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: New Jersey black Bear, and the article says, if you

593
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: are looking for an inexpensive and exciting hunting at the

594
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: you're close to home, consider hunting black bears in New Jersey.

595
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: So for them, this supports their narrative of oh, bears

596
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 1: or dangerous. Oh, we need to hunt them. Oh, look

597
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: at all these bear human conflicts, and they have built

598
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: this story up to try to support a black bear hunt,

599
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: to try to support their recreational trophy. Hunt well. Doctor

600
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: Gray Stafford with zoo Logic podcast. When I worked at

601
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: the Department Natural Resources in law school, people cared about animals,

602
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: and they cared about nature, and they cared about wildlife.

603
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: If you had any idea how many man hours I

604
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: put into studying how to save a beach, a very

605
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: small beach, to help the sea turtles for Pete's sake,

606
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean, people do care. I know we did it.

607
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: The Georgia Department of Natural Resources, Sure they care, and

608
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: so do most ethical hunters. That's why they pay those

609
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: license fees to have that opportunity to hunt. I'm not

610
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: a hunter. But I recognize that that ethical hunting that's

611
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: managed at the state level, the federal level, etc. Does

612
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: provide great benefit to each state to save habitat, to

613
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: preserve the entire population. And I know it's difficult for

614
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: some people to see that, especially when you're looking at

615
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: the individual level, but when you're tasked with managing the

616
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 1: entire population of bears and wildlife in a state like

617
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: New Jersey, you have to make these difficult decisions and

618
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: you have to find a way to fund it. There's

619
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: really no such thing as there's no such thing as

620
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: ethical bear hunting. No, that's no, that's not true. That's

621
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: not true. If it's managed properly. We can get into

622
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: baiting too, Nancy and Nancy, and we can get into bating,

623
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: which is done upper bears and deer in New Jersey.

624
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: And I could go on and on about deer bating too,

625
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: and chronic wasting disease. Well, so nobody needs to happen. No, Mark,

626
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: bating needs to be banned. And Mark, that's a valid

627
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: point though, Yeah, that's it. That's not that's a well. Mark, Mark,

628
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: that's a valid that's a valid point. And if there

629
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: are if there are issues with the way that the

630
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: hunt is being managed. If it's not following fair chase rules,

631
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 1: then petition your government and change the rules and the regulations.

632
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: But you don't. You can't throw the baby out with

633
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: the bathwater. Well that's quite the pun throwing the baby

634
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: bear out with the bathwater. What we were talking about

635
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: right now is a woman Kathy McCartney and Mark Neaglehout.

636
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: Kathy has been sentenced to jail time to see. I'm

637
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,959
Speaker 1: coming at it from a very different angle. I want

638
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: those jailcots for child molesters and murderers and dope dealers, rapists,

639
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: That's who I want in jail. In fact, we don't

640
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: even have enough beds for all of them. We can't

641
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: catch half of them, number one. So I'm leaning toward

642
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: letting Kathy McCartney pick up a little trash on the

643
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: side of the road with a friend, Mark Eaglehout. What

644
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: she says she did was free a baby bear from

645
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: a trap. There was meant for mama bear and it

646
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: was on the state side at a condominium complex where

647
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: there are children. Where will it all end? And Nancy?

648
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: As we go to air, we are now learning the

649
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: judge is changing his mind he will allow Catherine McCartney

650
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: and Daniel Varron to avoid jail time. Instead, they can

651
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: apply to work on the Sheriff's Labor Assistance Program. That's

652
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: the SLAP program, in which they can perform manual labor

653
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: instead of going to jail. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing

654
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,