1
00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:24,356
Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, Welcome to an episode brought

2
00:00:24,356 --> 00:00:26,756
Speaker 1: to you by the twenty twenty four Subaru Share the

3
00:00:26,756 --> 00:00:29,596
Speaker 1: love of it and I'm pretty excited because today is

4
00:00:29,596 --> 00:00:33,476
Speaker 1: one of my favorite holidays, Giving Tuesday. Giving Tuesday is

5
00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:36,156
Speaker 1: the one day of the year that focuses on giving back,

6
00:00:36,676 --> 00:00:39,436
Speaker 1: whether that's gifting money to your favorite charity, checking in

7
00:00:39,476 --> 00:00:41,956
Speaker 1: on a friend, or doing a random act of kindness

8
00:00:41,996 --> 00:00:45,236
Speaker 1: for a stranger. Study after study shows that engaging in

9
00:00:45,276 --> 00:00:48,036
Speaker 1: actions like these can have a big impact on our happiness,

10
00:00:48,596 --> 00:00:50,636
Speaker 1: and that's the reason we tend to make a big

11
00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:53,276
Speaker 1: deal out of Giving Tuesday. We're at the Happiness Lab.

12
00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:55,796
Speaker 1: If you're a fan of the show, you'll remember that

13
00:00:55,876 --> 00:00:59,116
Speaker 1: each Giving Tuesday we offer listeners an opportunity to help

14
00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:02,076
Speaker 1: folks in need. In years past, we've partnered with groups

15
00:01:02,116 --> 00:01:04,956
Speaker 1: like giving multiplier dot org, a site that allows you

16
00:01:04,996 --> 00:01:07,556
Speaker 1: to donate not only to your favorite cause, but also

17
00:01:07,596 --> 00:01:10,716
Speaker 1: to a set of super effective charity is recommended by experts,

18
00:01:10,836 --> 00:01:13,276
Speaker 1: where every one of your dollars will do the most good.

19
00:01:13,716 --> 00:01:16,076
Speaker 1: Last year, we focused our efforts on just one of

20
00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:19,836
Speaker 1: these super effective charities. Give Directly. Give Directly strives to

21
00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:23,156
Speaker 1: end global poverty. Through a rather creative strategy, they find

22
00:01:23,156 --> 00:01:25,756
Speaker 1: a community in need and give every single member of

23
00:01:25,756 --> 00:01:29,116
Speaker 1: that community so much needed cash, no strings attached.

24
00:01:29,356 --> 00:01:32,076
Speaker 2: What we do is we send about one thousand dollars

25
00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:34,756
Speaker 2: to each of the households in those villages.

26
00:01:35,076 --> 00:01:37,876
Speaker 1: This is Gloria and Gibert give directly, his country director

27
00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,796
Speaker 1: in Rwanda, explaining where the donations usually go.

28
00:01:41,356 --> 00:01:43,796
Speaker 2: Ten percent of the money goes to busic needs, so

29
00:01:43,836 --> 00:01:47,076
Speaker 2: that would be food and the most essential items in

30
00:01:47,116 --> 00:01:50,996
Speaker 2: the house. Another twenty to twenty five percent goes to

31
00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:54,196
Speaker 2: house renovation, and that's usually a basic need. If you're

32
00:01:54,236 --> 00:01:57,036
Speaker 2: being rained on, you don't think straight and you don't

33
00:01:57,076 --> 00:01:59,396
Speaker 2: continue sending the children to school and so on and

34
00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:02,756
Speaker 2: so forth. And then the large portion, about seventy percent

35
00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:07,436
Speaker 2: usually goes towards productive investment. For example, if you buy

36
00:02:07,516 --> 00:02:11,756
Speaker 2: a goat here, that can turn into five votes within

37
00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:16,396
Speaker 2: three years, right, and that means true revenue for the family.

38
00:02:16,756 --> 00:02:18,996
Speaker 1: Gloria and her colleagues that give directly have found that

39
00:02:19,116 --> 00:02:22,036
Speaker 1: letting people make their own choices about these cash transfers

40
00:02:22,156 --> 00:02:25,516
Speaker 1: is incredibly cost effective, and the money doesn't just disappear,

41
00:02:25,796 --> 00:02:28,836
Speaker 1: It kickstarts the local economy, making everyone better off.

42
00:02:29,236 --> 00:02:32,116
Speaker 2: The researcher keep directly demonstrate that you get a two

43
00:02:32,196 --> 00:02:36,116
Speaker 2: point five multiplier effect. So for every dollar that we sent,

44
00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:40,076
Speaker 2: you actually get an effect of two point five dollars

45
00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:41,716
Speaker 2: a circulating in the market.

46
00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,036
Speaker 1: After learning about the effectiveness of cash transfers, I couldn't

47
00:02:45,076 --> 00:02:47,396
Speaker 1: wait to try them out. So last Giving Tuesday, I

48
00:02:47,436 --> 00:02:49,956
Speaker 1: invited Happiness Lab listeners to take part in one of

49
00:02:49,996 --> 00:02:52,836
Speaker 1: Give Directly It's projects, and we had a very ambitious goal.

50
00:02:52,996 --> 00:02:55,476
Speaker 1: We took one struggling village and vowed to raise enough

51
00:02:55,516 --> 00:02:58,356
Speaker 1: money to get every single household in that community out

52
00:02:58,356 --> 00:03:00,916
Speaker 1: of extreme poverty. Gloria's on the show to tell you

53
00:03:00,956 --> 00:03:03,796
Speaker 1: more about the community. We picked a place called Kibobo.

54
00:03:04,436 --> 00:03:09,716
Speaker 2: Sheboboy is remote, quite isolated village in Randa. It's that

55
00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:13,796
Speaker 2: the peripherse of Kigali, which is the capital. In general.

56
00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:17,476
Speaker 2: The population in Kiboboy is quite poor and lives under

57
00:03:17,516 --> 00:03:18,356
Speaker 2: a dollar a day.

58
00:03:18,876 --> 00:03:21,836
Speaker 1: That's right, one dollar a day. The World Bank defines

59
00:03:21,876 --> 00:03:25,076
Speaker 1: extreme poverty as households that survive on less than two

60
00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:28,236
Speaker 1: dollars and fifteen cents a day. Before Happiness Lab listeners

61
00:03:28,276 --> 00:03:31,716
Speaker 1: stepped in, nearly everyone in Kebobo was in that dire position.

62
00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:34,996
Speaker 2: What you would have in Kiboboy is very little access

63
00:03:35,076 --> 00:03:39,396
Speaker 2: to drinking water. This translates into long trips one hour

64
00:03:39,596 --> 00:03:42,196
Speaker 2: and more and by the time they bring back a

65
00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:45,356
Speaker 2: jerry cab full of water, they have to decide whether

66
00:03:45,436 --> 00:03:48,276
Speaker 2: to shower or to feed the children. Those are the

67
00:03:48,396 --> 00:03:50,916
Speaker 2: choices that these villagers are confronted with.

68
00:03:51,556 --> 00:03:53,956
Speaker 1: Imagine having to walk for over an hour just to

69
00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:56,716
Speaker 1: get something safe to drink. These are the conditions that

70
00:03:56,756 --> 00:04:00,876
Speaker 1: Kebobo residents faced every day. They lack the home comforts

71
00:04:00,876 --> 00:04:02,516
Speaker 1: that so many of us take for granted.

72
00:04:03,196 --> 00:04:06,996
Speaker 2: Roofing is very poor, there's no flooring, and most of

73
00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:09,876
Speaker 2: the time sanitation is a problem, so you don't have

74
00:04:09,956 --> 00:04:12,476
Speaker 2: access to a lad train and you sleep on the floor.

75
00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:16,476
Speaker 1: These are admittedly huge challenges, but Gift Directly has found

76
00:04:16,516 --> 00:04:18,756
Speaker 1: that a little kindness can go a long way towards

77
00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:20,556
Speaker 1: fixing things in a place like Cabobo.

78
00:04:20,876 --> 00:04:24,796
Speaker 2: A dollar in Rwanda has way more value than a

79
00:04:24,836 --> 00:04:27,636
Speaker 2: dollar in the US. What it does here is it

80
00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:32,636
Speaker 2: transforms her family's life, it transforms a community's life.

81
00:04:32,476 --> 00:04:35,036
Speaker 1: And that was our goal. I wanted to rally Happiness

82
00:04:35,076 --> 00:04:37,956
Speaker 1: Lab listeners like you to donate enough money to completely

83
00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:41,516
Speaker 1: transform the life of every single resident of Cabobo. That's

84
00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:44,556
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of people. Now I knew my listeners

85
00:04:44,556 --> 00:04:47,076
Speaker 1: were a generous bunch, but could we really raise enough

86
00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:50,476
Speaker 1: money to help an entire village. The answer, of course

87
00:04:50,636 --> 00:04:53,476
Speaker 1: was yes, yes we could, and yes we did.

88
00:04:53,756 --> 00:04:56,916
Speaker 2: Gibobo has about te hundred and ninety three families and

89
00:04:57,076 --> 00:04:59,636
Speaker 2: each of them was able to receive a cash transfer

90
00:04:59,796 --> 00:05:02,956
Speaker 2: of about eleven hundred dollars. We are very grateful to

91
00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:06,676
Speaker 2: have received that gift, very generous and very impactful.

92
00:05:08,476 --> 00:05:10,156
Speaker 1: I want to let that sink in for a second.

93
00:05:10,716 --> 00:05:13,676
Speaker 1: We helped every single family and the entire village of

94
00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:17,356
Speaker 1: Kebobo get a cash transfer of over one thousand dollars.

95
00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:22,396
Speaker 1: That is absolutely incredible. Take the effect it's had on

96
00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:28,596
Speaker 1: one Cobobo resident, Tails four. Here he is talking about

97
00:05:28,596 --> 00:05:33,636
Speaker 1: what life was like before we all donated. My name

98
00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:35,996
Speaker 1: is Tadus for we are a family of seven.

99
00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:39,636
Speaker 3: Before receiving the transfers, we often had to go without

100
00:05:39,716 --> 00:05:42,636
Speaker 3: meals and it was heartbreaking when our little children are

101
00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:45,356
Speaker 3: for food and we had nothing to give them. After

102
00:05:45,396 --> 00:05:48,876
Speaker 3: receiving cash transfers, we bought our on land for farming,

103
00:05:49,076 --> 00:05:51,876
Speaker 3: I also bought a cow, which is truly valuable as

104
00:05:51,876 --> 00:05:55,636
Speaker 3: it provides both medic for our family and fertilizer for farming.

105
00:05:55,916 --> 00:05:58,996
Speaker 3: I'm hopeful that we will have a great harvest. My

106
00:05:59,156 --> 00:06:02,316
Speaker 3: son needed two hundred dollars to purchase a motorbike for work,

107
00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:05,156
Speaker 3: and now he's working as a moto taxi driver. Before

108
00:06:05,196 --> 00:06:08,116
Speaker 3: the transfers, I had very old and torne clothes and

109
00:06:08,156 --> 00:06:10,756
Speaker 3: I was not computed to meet other people. Are no

110
00:06:10,836 --> 00:06:13,476
Speaker 3: longer embarrassed to meet people or go to any event.

111
00:06:13,956 --> 00:06:17,236
Speaker 2: He's a very proud man. He smiles all the time.

112
00:06:17,436 --> 00:06:21,396
Speaker 2: He looks good, he looks clean, his wife looks happy.

113
00:06:21,676 --> 00:06:24,796
Speaker 2: He's also managed to send his daughter and his two

114
00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:29,956
Speaker 2: grandchildren to school, and his daughter, particularly who couldn't access

115
00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:32,956
Speaker 2: school back then, is getting really good grades.

116
00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:35,396
Speaker 1: And tell usforce family is not the only one to

117
00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:37,636
Speaker 1: experience such radical improvements.

118
00:06:37,876 --> 00:06:41,796
Speaker 2: You have people who have medical debt. So another family,

119
00:06:42,276 --> 00:06:45,156
Speaker 2: the mother of the family very sick before we got there,

120
00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:48,156
Speaker 2: and they managed to clear about seven hundred dollars of that,

121
00:06:48,836 --> 00:06:51,676
Speaker 2: and the alternative to that would have been that they

122
00:06:51,716 --> 00:06:55,316
Speaker 2: sell the one little plot of land they were farming on.

123
00:06:55,636 --> 00:06:58,676
Speaker 2: So really, the cash transfers have come to save them

124
00:06:58,956 --> 00:07:02,716
Speaker 2: and still left them with extra allowing them to continue

125
00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:05,796
Speaker 2: on the better path that they would have not reached

126
00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:07,156
Speaker 2: if we hadn't been there.

127
00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:10,316
Speaker 1: Give Directly has continued studying the impact of our donation,

128
00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:13,196
Speaker 1: and Gloria says that many families found ways to spend

129
00:07:13,196 --> 00:07:15,756
Speaker 1: their money and purchases that will have a positive impact

130
00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:18,156
Speaker 1: on their families and communities for years to come.

131
00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:21,796
Speaker 2: The households that we found under a dollar a day

132
00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:25,076
Speaker 2: are now ranging between two point five dollars a day

133
00:07:25,196 --> 00:07:27,076
Speaker 2: to three dollars a day today.

134
00:07:27,356 --> 00:07:30,036
Speaker 1: Wow, so they like literally double their triple their income.

135
00:07:30,356 --> 00:07:34,356
Speaker 2: Definitely. I'll give you another example. Most of the recipients

136
00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:37,436
Speaker 2: in kebobo bota cow. But in return from the cow,

137
00:07:37,556 --> 00:07:40,316
Speaker 2: you get five liters of milk a day, and you

138
00:07:40,356 --> 00:07:43,916
Speaker 2: can sell four liters of milk and you bring back

139
00:07:43,956 --> 00:07:47,196
Speaker 2: the one litter your children and your family, and that

140
00:07:47,356 --> 00:07:51,756
Speaker 2: provides for the nutritional input that so many families are lacking.

141
00:07:52,116 --> 00:07:55,316
Speaker 2: If that cow then has two paths over the span

142
00:07:55,396 --> 00:07:57,676
Speaker 2: of three years, you have saved the family.

143
00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:01,076
Speaker 1: But Gloria also shared examples of families that made even

144
00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:04,636
Speaker 1: more creative investments, ones that I couldn't have imagined when

145
00:08:04,676 --> 00:08:05,836
Speaker 1: we began this project.

146
00:08:06,356 --> 00:08:10,516
Speaker 2: So for example, there's a couple called Newland Alin and

147
00:08:10,556 --> 00:08:13,836
Speaker 2: it started the first pub in the village. And that

148
00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:17,116
Speaker 2: could be an atypical choice. Why would you spend the

149
00:08:17,196 --> 00:08:19,916
Speaker 2: money towards the pub. But what they explain is this

150
00:08:20,236 --> 00:08:22,996
Speaker 2: acts as a retail shop during the day so they

151
00:08:23,036 --> 00:08:25,196
Speaker 2: can make money and at the end of the day,

152
00:08:25,276 --> 00:08:29,476
Speaker 2: everybody gathers around them, they can serve drinks. And they've

153
00:08:29,476 --> 00:08:32,796
Speaker 2: described so much loughter, so much joy at the end

154
00:08:32,796 --> 00:08:36,156
Speaker 2: of the day, so much relaxation that happens, and that

155
00:08:36,316 --> 00:08:38,636
Speaker 2: was one of their objectives. They were like, how can

156
00:08:38,676 --> 00:08:41,876
Speaker 2: we get the community more together, so to say, And

157
00:08:41,956 --> 00:08:44,596
Speaker 2: now they are exploring the idea of a restaurant.

158
00:08:44,836 --> 00:08:47,516
Speaker 1: You mentioned something about a mattress. Share that story with

159
00:08:47,556 --> 00:08:48,196
Speaker 1: me if you would.

160
00:08:48,396 --> 00:08:53,516
Speaker 2: A mattress is considered luxury in Randi and you slip

161
00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:56,276
Speaker 2: on the floor. One of the first purchases is a

162
00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:59,556
Speaker 2: mattress and it costs you about sixty to seventy dollars

163
00:08:59,596 --> 00:09:03,116
Speaker 2: in Rwanda. But that's true luxury and most of the

164
00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:07,076
Speaker 2: families in Kibobo village have had that on their list

165
00:09:07,276 --> 00:09:12,076
Speaker 2: of purchases, said Beatrice, who lived there. That was purchased

166
00:09:12,156 --> 00:09:14,996
Speaker 2: number one, and they now confirmed that they sleep way

167
00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:19,156
Speaker 2: more comfortably than before. Beatrice was sick before, so that's

168
00:09:19,196 --> 00:09:22,316
Speaker 2: an extra layer of comfort that you have managed to

169
00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:23,036
Speaker 2: provide her.

170
00:09:23,436 --> 00:09:25,636
Speaker 1: When we teamed up with Give Directly, I had a

171
00:09:25,676 --> 00:09:27,516
Speaker 1: guess about the kinds of things our money would be

172
00:09:27,516 --> 00:09:31,876
Speaker 1: spent on, stuff like when livestock, school books, and building repairs,

173
00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,596
Speaker 1: but I didn't know how our donations would actually feel

174
00:09:34,636 --> 00:09:37,316
Speaker 1: to the people on the receiving end. Talking to Gloria

175
00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:40,196
Speaker 1: had me beaming. I was so happy for Tilos four

176
00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:43,036
Speaker 1: and the other residents of Gobobo, and so proud of

177
00:09:43,116 --> 00:09:46,076
Speaker 1: us for sending whatever money we could. Hearing Gloria share

178
00:09:46,116 --> 00:09:48,996
Speaker 1: what we were able to accomplish was just incredible.

179
00:09:49,476 --> 00:09:51,836
Speaker 2: The first thing you noticed when you're get in Gibobo

180
00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:55,036
Speaker 2: is how many people smile at you. That's the most

181
00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:58,556
Speaker 2: basic way of expressing the effect of what we are doing,

182
00:09:58,716 --> 00:10:02,556
Speaker 2: and before that it was a different feeling. And that's

183
00:10:02,596 --> 00:10:05,716
Speaker 2: the most powerful thing we can do in life, whether

184
00:10:05,756 --> 00:10:09,036
Speaker 2: it's giving cash, transfers or something else. It's all about

185
00:10:09,236 --> 00:10:12,196
Speaker 2: the love that you convey by sharing what you have.

186
00:10:13,036 --> 00:10:14,476
Speaker 1: When I think about what we were able to do

187
00:10:14,516 --> 00:10:17,316
Speaker 1: in Cabobo, I'm brought to tears, But why don't we

188
00:10:17,396 --> 00:10:19,396
Speaker 1: do this more often? What gets in the way of

189
00:10:19,476 --> 00:10:22,116
Speaker 1: so many of us doing good in the world. We'll

190
00:10:22,116 --> 00:10:24,556
Speaker 1: find out when this special Giving Tuesday episode of the

191
00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:36,276
Speaker 1: Happiness Lab returns from the break Welcome Back. I wanted

192
00:10:36,276 --> 00:10:38,196
Speaker 1: to better understand what gets in the way of us

193
00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:40,436
Speaker 1: doing as much good as we can for others, So

194
00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:43,756
Speaker 1: I decided to ask an academic expert and a Happiness

195
00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:44,436
Speaker 1: Lab regular.

196
00:10:44,596 --> 00:10:46,596
Speaker 4: I'm nickke Blame, a professor of behavioral science at the

197
00:10:46,636 --> 00:10:49,236
Speaker 4: University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, and I study

198
00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:51,316
Speaker 4: mind reading for a living, the inferences we make about

199
00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:54,236
Speaker 4: each other's thoughts and beliefs and attitudes, and mostly about

200
00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:56,356
Speaker 4: how we screw that up and misunderstand each other in

201
00:10:56,356 --> 00:10:57,156
Speaker 4: lots of different ways.

202
00:10:57,676 --> 00:11:00,156
Speaker 1: My first question for Nick was why giving to others

203
00:11:00,196 --> 00:11:03,396
Speaker 1: makes us feel so good. One answer, he said, comes

204
00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:06,636
Speaker 1: from a psychological concept known as self determination theory.

205
00:11:06,996 --> 00:11:10,476
Speaker 4: This theory proposes we have kind of three basic motivations

206
00:11:10,796 --> 00:11:15,476
Speaker 4: or needs. One is relatedness connectedness, another is competency feeling

207
00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:19,236
Speaker 4: like we are capable agents we can do things effectively

208
00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:22,516
Speaker 4: in the world. And autonomy that we feel like we're

209
00:11:22,596 --> 00:11:27,556
Speaker 4: responsible for this thing. And kindness, particularly when it's effective,

210
00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:31,676
Speaker 4: really hits all three of these in a major, major way.

211
00:11:31,796 --> 00:11:34,276
Speaker 4: So it's going right to the sweet spot of what

212
00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:37,956
Speaker 4: motivates us. Kindness connects us with others. When you do

213
00:11:38,036 --> 00:11:40,556
Speaker 4: something positive or somebody else and you can see that

214
00:11:40,636 --> 00:11:44,716
Speaker 4: it had a positive impact, that pokes right on that

215
00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:48,316
Speaker 4: relatedness motive and satisfies it really well, particularly when it's

216
00:11:48,316 --> 00:11:50,836
Speaker 4: a stranger, when it's somebody you're not already connected to,

217
00:11:51,356 --> 00:11:54,556
Speaker 4: when you do something really powerful for them that creates

218
00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:58,196
Speaker 4: a connection that wasn't there before. That's powerful. It's also

219
00:11:58,836 --> 00:12:02,236
Speaker 4: showing your competency that you are able to do something

220
00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:05,516
Speaker 4: really powerful for somebody else when you put your mind

221
00:12:05,556 --> 00:12:09,596
Speaker 4: to it, sometimes big, sometimes relatively small, and when you

222
00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:13,396
Speaker 4: feel responsible for that, when you feel more competent as

223
00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:14,916
Speaker 4: a result of that, when you try to do something

224
00:12:14,996 --> 00:12:18,596
Speaker 4: kind and it is effective, that tends to feel great.

225
00:12:18,836 --> 00:12:22,116
Speaker 4: And most often our efforts to be kind are effective.

226
00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:24,876
Speaker 4: When you pass along a compliment to somebody, when you

227
00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:28,476
Speaker 4: get somebody a bed when they need it, that works,

228
00:12:29,116 --> 00:12:32,596
Speaker 4: That works, and so that really hits the competency button

229
00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,036
Speaker 4: as well. And then when you're choosing to do this

230
00:12:35,076 --> 00:12:37,956
Speaker 4: when you're the one who's decided to initiate this action

231
00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:41,996
Speaker 4: and you feel responsible for it. That hits the autonomy button.

232
00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:44,916
Speaker 4: So it really hits the trifecta. I think of our

233
00:12:45,036 --> 00:12:48,436
Speaker 4: motivations when we're doing kind things for other people.

234
00:12:48,516 --> 00:12:51,796
Speaker 1: I was totally miscalibrated on just how nice it would feel.

235
00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:54,116
Speaker 1: And this is something that I know you've studied a lot,

236
00:12:54,156 --> 00:12:56,756
Speaker 1: just like kind of how bad our miscalibrations are. You've

237
00:12:56,836 --> 00:12:59,036
Speaker 1: used this term under sociality. What's that?

238
00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:03,116
Speaker 4: Yes, So, undersociality is a concept we used to describe

239
00:13:03,196 --> 00:13:07,156
Speaker 4: a broad set of empirical results we find where it seems,

240
00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:09,236
Speaker 4: as far as we can tell, we might not be

241
00:13:09,316 --> 00:13:12,956
Speaker 4: social enough for our own wellbeing. And part of that stems,

242
00:13:12,996 --> 00:13:15,876
Speaker 4: I think from the very experience that you had, which

243
00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:20,676
Speaker 4: is just underestimating how positive your act will feel for

244
00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:23,236
Speaker 4: somebody else, how much of a positive impact you might

245
00:13:23,316 --> 00:13:25,836
Speaker 4: be able to have on somebody else by reaching out

246
00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:28,156
Speaker 4: and doing this act of kindness. So with your give

247
00:13:28,236 --> 00:13:31,316
Speaker 4: directly campaign, typically when we you know, when we give

248
00:13:31,356 --> 00:13:33,956
Speaker 4: money to a charity, we don't necessarily see the outcome.

249
00:13:33,956 --> 00:13:36,836
Speaker 4: We don't see how much good we're actually doing for

250
00:13:36,916 --> 00:13:39,476
Speaker 4: somebody else, and it can be easy then to underestimate

251
00:13:39,556 --> 00:13:42,076
Speaker 4: just how much good is actually being done. You got

252
00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:45,396
Speaker 4: to see it directly, the positive impact you were having

253
00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:49,196
Speaker 4: on somebody else, and so that was big. The other thing, though,

254
00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:51,356
Speaker 4: that I think we seem to miss when we are

255
00:13:52,156 --> 00:13:55,156
Speaker 4: doing kind things for other people is that a kind

256
00:13:55,276 --> 00:13:58,956
Speaker 4: act does two things for the recipient. On the one hand,

257
00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:02,636
Speaker 4: there is some objective thing that we have done for them,

258
00:14:02,796 --> 00:14:05,436
Speaker 4: so getting somebody a mattress that they can sleep on

259
00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:07,756
Speaker 4: when they didn't have one, allowing somebody to go to

260
00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:11,916
Speaker 4: school when they could, and those things are objective outcomes

261
00:14:11,916 --> 00:14:15,956
Speaker 4: that matter. But in addition, a kind act also conveys

262
00:14:16,036 --> 00:14:19,396
Speaker 4: relational connection to the recipient. It makes them feel connected

263
00:14:19,436 --> 00:14:23,156
Speaker 4: to somebody else, It makes them realize somebody cares about them,

264
00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:27,716
Speaker 4: It makes them feel seen. That is a profound expression

265
00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:30,756
Speaker 4: of warmth to reach out to do something positive for

266
00:14:30,836 --> 00:14:33,676
Speaker 4: somebody else, and warmth is one of the things that

267
00:14:33,716 --> 00:14:36,916
Speaker 4: we value most in other people. And when somebody is

268
00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:40,156
Speaker 4: kind to us, that just feels great because it was kind.

269
00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:43,396
Speaker 4: So a recipient gets two things. One is the thing

270
00:14:43,396 --> 00:14:45,676
Speaker 4: that you're giving. But the thing we really seem to

271
00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:48,916
Speaker 4: undervalue or underestimate is the positive impact that just the

272
00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:52,316
Speaker 4: act itself, the expression of warmth, will have on somebody else.

273
00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:55,596
Speaker 4: You did really big things with all of your listeners

274
00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:59,356
Speaker 4: for this community in Rwanda, really big things. But in

275
00:14:59,396 --> 00:15:02,476
Speaker 4: our daily lives, even small things that we do for

276
00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:04,596
Speaker 4: other people around us that are easy to do, that

277
00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:07,156
Speaker 4: are everyday habits we can take on tend to have

278
00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:10,636
Speaker 4: a surprisingly positive impact because we think the positive impact

279
00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:12,556
Speaker 4: is going to come from just the thing that we're doing,

280
00:15:13,196 --> 00:15:15,676
Speaker 4: and it does, but it also comes from the fact

281
00:15:15,716 --> 00:15:17,196
Speaker 4: that we have been kind to them as well, and

282
00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:19,196
Speaker 4: that's something that we don't seem to anticipate.

283
00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:21,436
Speaker 1: And you've done all these clever studies to show just

284
00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:24,756
Speaker 1: how systematically we underestimate the value that comes from these

285
00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,076
Speaker 1: two things together. And one of my favorite studies that

286
00:15:27,076 --> 00:15:29,556
Speaker 1: you've looked at was in the context of giving away

287
00:15:29,596 --> 00:15:31,996
Speaker 1: hot chocolate. So explain this hot chocolate study.

288
00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:35,396
Speaker 4: Yeah, So this was a very simple, at least conceptually

289
00:15:35,596 --> 00:15:37,756
Speaker 4: simple thing that we asked people to do in Chicago.

290
00:15:37,876 --> 00:15:41,316
Speaker 4: Wasn't bagos a little thing? We went to downtown Chicago,

291
00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:43,796
Speaker 4: So if you visited our fair windy city, you will

292
00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:46,836
Speaker 4: notice that right smack dab, downtown is a massive park

293
00:15:46,996 --> 00:15:50,436
Speaker 4: and there's a skating rink down there, and it's a

294
00:15:50,556 --> 00:15:52,836
Speaker 4: very popular spot in the winter time, and there is

295
00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:54,836
Speaker 4: a kiosk right next to it that happens to sell

296
00:15:54,876 --> 00:15:57,356
Speaker 4: hot chocolate. It gets cold here in the winter, and

297
00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:00,636
Speaker 4: it's hard to think of something that feels warmer, both

298
00:16:00,676 --> 00:16:04,676
Speaker 4: literally and figuratively on a cold day than getting hot chocolate.

299
00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:08,236
Speaker 4: And so what we had people do was in our experiments,

300
00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:10,076
Speaker 4: if they were interest in parts, we walked up to

301
00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:13,316
Speaker 4: them and we told them, congratulations, you're in this experiment.

302
00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:16,956
Speaker 4: We are today giving you a free cup of hot chocolate.

303
00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:18,836
Speaker 4: Now you can keep it for yourself if you'd like to.

304
00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:21,156
Speaker 4: But what we'd really like you to do is to

305
00:16:21,196 --> 00:16:24,996
Speaker 4: look around and find somebody here and give that cup

306
00:16:24,996 --> 00:16:27,476
Speaker 4: of hot chocolate away to them. And this was our ticket,

307
00:16:27,516 --> 00:16:29,916
Speaker 4: and so they weren't giving away an actual cup of

308
00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:32,676
Speaker 4: hot chocolate. They were giving away this ticket that just

309
00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:35,516
Speaker 4: turned out to be easier experimentally if they were willing,

310
00:16:35,556 --> 00:16:38,036
Speaker 4: and nearly everybody was. A few people gave it to

311
00:16:38,116 --> 00:16:41,476
Speaker 4: their mostly girlfriends sitting next to them, but most people

312
00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:45,396
Speaker 4: gave it away to somebody else overwhelmingly before we then

313
00:16:45,476 --> 00:16:47,316
Speaker 4: went up and bought the cup of hot chocolate and

314
00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:49,916
Speaker 4: went out and gave it to their recipient. We asked

315
00:16:49,956 --> 00:16:52,236
Speaker 4: them to anticipate how's the recipient going to feel about this,

316
00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:54,676
Speaker 4: positive or negative they're going to feel on a couple

317
00:16:54,756 --> 00:16:57,116
Speaker 4: of different measures. We then went and got the cup

318
00:16:57,156 --> 00:16:59,476
Speaker 4: of hot chocolate. We gave it to the recipient. We

319
00:16:59,556 --> 00:17:02,236
Speaker 4: told them that somebody here in the park decided to

320
00:17:02,236 --> 00:17:05,156
Speaker 4: give this to you today as an act of kindness,

321
00:17:05,396 --> 00:17:07,996
Speaker 4: and they reported how it actually made them feel. Now

322
00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:11,436
Speaker 4: it's important to understand is every listener here on this

323
00:17:11,476 --> 00:17:15,196
Speaker 4: podcast can appreciate that that would feel pretty good to receive,

324
00:17:15,916 --> 00:17:19,396
Speaker 4: and our givers anticipated that they knew that it would

325
00:17:19,436 --> 00:17:22,276
Speaker 4: be pretty positive, but it turned out it was even

326
00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:25,516
Speaker 4: more positive than that for the recipient. And what we

327
00:17:25,636 --> 00:17:29,156
Speaker 4: learned in subsequent experiments that the part that they seemed

328
00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,516
Speaker 4: to be missing wasn't that they would like a cup

329
00:17:31,556 --> 00:17:33,796
Speaker 4: of hot chocolate. When we gave a cup of hot

330
00:17:33,836 --> 00:17:37,716
Speaker 4: chocolate away as a prize that they won as part

331
00:17:37,796 --> 00:17:41,956
Speaker 4: of the experiment, the givers thought that the recipients would

332
00:17:41,996 --> 00:17:44,356
Speaker 4: like that just as much as getting the cup of

333
00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:46,876
Speaker 4: hot chocolate. As an active kindness. It didn't matter how

334
00:17:46,876 --> 00:17:48,716
Speaker 4: they got the gift, what mattered was that they got

335
00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:52,036
Speaker 4: the hot chocolate. The recipients, however, they felt better when

336
00:17:52,036 --> 00:17:53,796
Speaker 4: they got the hot cup of hot chocolate as an

337
00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:56,596
Speaker 4: active kindness than when they won the hot cup of

338
00:17:56,636 --> 00:17:59,476
Speaker 4: hot chocolate in a lottery because the cup of hot

339
00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:01,956
Speaker 4: chocolate when it was an act of kindness was nice

340
00:18:01,996 --> 00:18:04,556
Speaker 4: because it was hot chocolate. A plus, it had this

341
00:18:04,916 --> 00:18:07,516
Speaker 4: added dose of kindness to it that made it feel

342
00:18:08,036 --> 00:18:10,556
Speaker 4: even a little better. And that's what our givers missed,

343
00:18:11,316 --> 00:18:13,716
Speaker 4: was that the kindness would make it feel even better.

344
00:18:13,876 --> 00:18:15,596
Speaker 1: And you've also found in some of your studies that

345
00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:17,396
Speaker 1: this is like, not just true in the sort of

346
00:18:17,436 --> 00:18:19,716
Speaker 1: experimental set up with the hot chocolate, it's also true

347
00:18:19,756 --> 00:18:22,676
Speaker 1: just in these really straightforward acts of kindness that people

348
00:18:22,756 --> 00:18:25,356
Speaker 1: come up with on their own. Are people also miscalibrated

349
00:18:25,396 --> 00:18:27,196
Speaker 1: where it's kind of their choice about what act to

350
00:18:27,196 --> 00:18:29,476
Speaker 1: give and it's less experimentally induced.

351
00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:33,676
Speaker 4: Absolutely they are. We find this consistently as well when

352
00:18:33,716 --> 00:18:36,196
Speaker 4: we just let people choose an active kindness that they

353
00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:38,276
Speaker 4: could do. So one of the ways I do this

354
00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:41,436
Speaker 4: is with my MBA students here at the University of Chicago.

355
00:18:41,796 --> 00:18:44,996
Speaker 4: I asked them to go out into the world and

356
00:18:45,236 --> 00:18:48,036
Speaker 4: do some active kindness for somebody, They just keep their

357
00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,916
Speaker 4: eyes out. Sometimes they plan it, sometimes it's spontaneous. Sometimes

358
00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:55,316
Speaker 4: they're big things, sometimes they're tiny little things. Sometimes folks

359
00:18:55,316 --> 00:18:57,996
Speaker 4: will say I held a door for somebody else, which is,

360
00:18:58,036 --> 00:19:00,436
Speaker 4: you know, a little bit of a stretch for an

361
00:19:00,636 --> 00:19:01,476
Speaker 4: active kindness.

362
00:19:01,556 --> 00:19:03,556
Speaker 1: They're mva is they get to start smiling.

363
00:19:03,636 --> 00:19:07,156
Speaker 4: They're busy people, right, Yeah, they're starting somewhere. So when

364
00:19:07,196 --> 00:19:09,316
Speaker 4: we let them just choose it, and then when we

365
00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:12,836
Speaker 4: reach out to the recipient of that, we find that

366
00:19:12,916 --> 00:19:16,636
Speaker 4: the recipients also value that act of kindness more than

367
00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:19,636
Speaker 4: the givers anticipated. We find it across the board.

368
00:19:19,476 --> 00:19:22,476
Speaker 1: And so this is a so called prosociality paradox. We're

369
00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:26,116
Speaker 1: kind of consistently undervaluing like how much our act would

370
00:19:26,156 --> 00:19:28,596
Speaker 1: mean to other people. And I kind of when we

371
00:19:28,676 --> 00:19:30,356
Speaker 1: talked about one of the reasons that is right, we

372
00:19:30,436 --> 00:19:33,636
Speaker 1: underestimate the warmth. I think, particularly in this give directly case,

373
00:19:33,676 --> 00:19:35,636
Speaker 1: there seems to be something else that's going on, which

374
00:19:35,636 --> 00:19:38,036
Speaker 1: is sort of a funny framing effect, which is like

375
00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:40,956
Speaker 1: when I think of like donating five bucks, it's like, well,

376
00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:43,356
Speaker 1: it's not that helpful for me. It's a cup of coffee.

377
00:19:43,396 --> 00:19:45,116
Speaker 1: But when I look at how that money help the

378
00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:47,716
Speaker 1: people in Cobobo. It's like enormous, right, this is allowing

379
00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:50,076
Speaker 1: people to like completely change their lives around.

380
00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:52,156
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I think, to go back to what we

381
00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:55,636
Speaker 4: were talking about just a moment before, when we do

382
00:19:55,716 --> 00:19:59,196
Speaker 4: some active kindness for somebody else, we're focused on the

383
00:19:59,236 --> 00:20:01,716
Speaker 4: thing that we're doing, the act that we're engaging in,

384
00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:05,196
Speaker 4: what we're giving somebody, what that means to us. Right

385
00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:08,516
Speaker 4: as a giver, we can't but evaluate the world from

386
00:20:08,596 --> 00:20:12,236
Speaker 4: our own unique egocentric perspective on it. So when we

387
00:20:12,276 --> 00:20:14,356
Speaker 4: in the United States think of five dollars, we think

388
00:20:14,396 --> 00:20:17,116
Speaker 4: about what that means to us, when we think about

389
00:20:17,436 --> 00:20:19,476
Speaker 4: the effort we had to go through and giving this

390
00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:22,596
Speaker 4: money away. It was super easy, It wasn't that hard.

391
00:20:23,076 --> 00:20:25,916
Speaker 4: It just doesn't seem like a big thing to us.

392
00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:29,436
Speaker 4: But to a recipient of that, if they're in a

393
00:20:29,516 --> 00:20:33,116
Speaker 4: more precarious spot in their life, five dollars isn't five

394
00:20:33,156 --> 00:20:36,396
Speaker 4: dollars to us. It's five dollars to them. And that

395
00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:39,516
Speaker 4: currency exchange is big. And so when you go across

396
00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:43,676
Speaker 4: perspective gaps like that, particularly one that goes in that direction,

397
00:20:44,116 --> 00:20:47,156
Speaker 4: we're likely to think this is a much smaller material

398
00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:49,356
Speaker 4: benefit to the recipient than it actually is.

399
00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:51,516
Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is true in the financial

400
00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:54,156
Speaker 1: situation with this particular case of to give directly, but

401
00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:56,276
Speaker 1: I think just in kind acts that we can engage

402
00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:58,516
Speaker 1: in with the people around us that I imagine that

403
00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:01,316
Speaker 1: perspective taking bias comes in in a different way, which

404
00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:03,916
Speaker 1: is like, you know, say I have a friend who's struggling,

405
00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:05,796
Speaker 1: who's really a need, who's had a bad day in

406
00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,316
Speaker 1: a bad way. When I'm simulating what it would feel

407
00:21:08,356 --> 00:21:09,796
Speaker 1: like for me to reach out, I'm like, well, it's

408
00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:11,596
Speaker 1: not going to matter because I'm not the one who's

409
00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:13,676
Speaker 1: in a bad way. But if she's in a bad way,

410
00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:15,836
Speaker 1: then maybe I'm missing something. This is something we also

411
00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:16,916
Speaker 1: see in some research.

412
00:21:17,076 --> 00:21:20,876
Speaker 4: Absolutely, so we've conducted a bunch of experiments on expressions

413
00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:23,276
Speaker 4: of support. Right, so this simple thing, you know somebody's

414
00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:26,156
Speaker 4: going through a hard time, you reach out to them

415
00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:28,636
Speaker 4: to express your support. It can often be hard for

416
00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:31,196
Speaker 4: us to reach out to people at those times, because

417
00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:33,356
Speaker 4: again we're thinking about our act in terms of its

418
00:21:33,356 --> 00:21:36,236
Speaker 4: objective features. What am I going to do for you,

419
00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:40,076
Speaker 4: Laurie when you are in a tough situation To actually

420
00:21:40,596 --> 00:21:43,196
Speaker 4: change the situation you're in to actually make you feel

421
00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,476
Speaker 4: better when you've lost the spouse or when you're sick

422
00:21:46,516 --> 00:21:50,076
Speaker 4: in some way. But what the recipient values, again is

423
00:21:50,076 --> 00:21:53,316
Speaker 4: not just the objective act. Somebody has just been diagnosed

424
00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:57,116
Speaker 4: with some bad health condition. You're not going to remedy

425
00:21:57,156 --> 00:21:59,636
Speaker 4: that health condition. You're not. That can often be a

426
00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:01,476
Speaker 4: barrier to reaching out because we think that's what we

427
00:22:01,556 --> 00:22:04,796
Speaker 4: have to do. That's not necessarily what the recipient values. Remember,

428
00:22:04,796 --> 00:22:08,716
Speaker 4: the recipient values the relational connection just like we do.

429
00:22:08,916 --> 00:22:11,796
Speaker 4: That's the part we can often miss. So psychologists in

430
00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:15,356
Speaker 4: lots of different ways, from simple text messages to reaching

431
00:22:15,356 --> 00:22:17,436
Speaker 4: out with a letter, which is what we've done in

432
00:22:17,476 --> 00:22:20,956
Speaker 4: some of our experiments. We find that people underestimate how

433
00:22:20,996 --> 00:22:23,596
Speaker 4: positively someone will respond when you just reach out to them,

434
00:22:24,076 --> 00:22:26,716
Speaker 4: tell them something even as simple as small as hey,

435
00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:27,396
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of you.

436
00:22:27,516 --> 00:22:29,396
Speaker 1: And this is something that I think we get wrong.

437
00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:31,476
Speaker 1: In a different case, another way that we can sort

438
00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:34,516
Speaker 1: of boost this relational connection, which is in some ways

439
00:22:34,556 --> 00:22:37,036
Speaker 1: by asking for help. Right when I need help with

440
00:22:37,116 --> 00:22:39,676
Speaker 1: something and I'm like, oh, I don't want to burden anybody.

441
00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:41,796
Speaker 1: I'm kind of in my own headspace about it. But

442
00:22:41,876 --> 00:22:44,196
Speaker 1: to someone who with whom I ask for help, that

443
00:22:44,276 --> 00:22:46,396
Speaker 1: kind of feels really nice. And you've done some lovely

444
00:22:46,436 --> 00:22:48,636
Speaker 1: work showing that we don't ask for help enough. Right.

445
00:22:48,756 --> 00:22:50,636
Speaker 4: Yeah, But I'm going to turn the tables on here

446
00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:52,836
Speaker 4: a little bit. Oh now, I'm going to turn the

447
00:22:52,836 --> 00:22:54,316
Speaker 4: spotlight on you.

448
00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:59,156
Speaker 1: Turn the spotlight on me. Well, you'll find out what

449
00:22:59,156 --> 00:23:02,076
Speaker 1: that means when The Happiness Lab returns in a moment.

450
00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:14,436
Speaker 1: Welcome back to our special Giving Tuesday episode of The

451
00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:17,716
Speaker 1: Happiness Lab. Before the break, I asked kindness expert Nick

452
00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:19,916
Speaker 1: Epley why we don't ask for help as much as

453
00:23:19,916 --> 00:23:22,676
Speaker 1: we should. But before answering my question, Nick wanted to

454
00:23:22,676 --> 00:23:23,596
Speaker 1: flip the script a bit.

455
00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:25,116
Speaker 4: I'll tell you about my research in a minute, but

456
00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:29,116
Speaker 4: I'll tell you about a personal experience to your listeners. So,

457
00:23:29,316 --> 00:23:33,996
Speaker 4: last year, my daughter, Sion, our daughter, was diagnosed with

458
00:23:34,036 --> 00:23:37,036
Speaker 4: ovarian cancer. And that's a very scary thing to have

459
00:23:37,076 --> 00:23:40,636
Speaker 4: a teenage daughter diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had the

460
00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:44,236
Speaker 4: best medical care in the world. She's in wonderful shape

461
00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:48,076
Speaker 4: right now. Everything is great, But that was a very

462
00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:50,516
Speaker 4: hard time. It was a very hard time for us.

463
00:23:51,036 --> 00:23:54,996
Speaker 4: And when we were in the hospital, you will remember

464
00:23:55,196 --> 00:23:58,276
Speaker 4: I reached out to you because we are big fans

465
00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:01,236
Speaker 4: of yours, Sione and my wife Jen in particular, we

466
00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:05,076
Speaker 4: reached out to you because I knew that because of

467
00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:07,796
Speaker 4: who you are, I knew that you would be able

468
00:24:07,996 --> 00:24:10,956
Speaker 4: to do something for her her that would just really

469
00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:14,596
Speaker 4: lift her up. Wouldn't cure of ovarian cancer, but it

470
00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:16,476
Speaker 4: would lift her up in a time when she really

471
00:24:16,476 --> 00:24:21,636
Speaker 4: need to be uplifted. And you sent us T shirts

472
00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:26,796
Speaker 4: which we still wear today. You sent us Happiness Lab mugs,

473
00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:30,996
Speaker 4: which we still drink coffee from today. The most amazing,

474
00:24:33,756 --> 00:24:40,876
Speaker 4: most amazing thing you did one day you were you

475
00:24:40,916 --> 00:24:44,956
Speaker 4: were given a talk in Boston, a live a live

476
00:24:44,996 --> 00:24:51,516
Speaker 4: talk I remember, and uh you. You had the audience

477
00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:53,956
Speaker 4: give a shout out to see you on held up

478
00:24:53,996 --> 00:25:00,356
Speaker 4: your phone and had them call out, get well soon

479
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:02,276
Speaker 4: to see on.

480
00:25:02,356 --> 00:25:03,356
Speaker 1: I got a message for you.

481
00:25:06,476 --> 00:25:10,516
Speaker 4: We're all thinking of you with the Happiness lif And

482
00:25:10,996 --> 00:25:13,476
Speaker 4: that was just so powerful. It was so powerful for

483
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:17,956
Speaker 4: us and so uplifting for her. And I knew. I knew,

484
00:25:17,996 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 4: just because I've seen ten thousand data points and this

485
00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:23,356
Speaker 4: kind of stuff, I knew that this was something that

486
00:25:23,436 --> 00:25:26,236
Speaker 4: you would be able to do that would not be

487
00:25:26,836 --> 00:25:29,556
Speaker 4: a huge amount of effort for you. But that would

488
00:25:29,556 --> 00:25:33,876
Speaker 4: have such a meaningful impact on my daughter because she

489
00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:37,756
Speaker 4: would feel seen and uplifted by a celebrity even in

490
00:25:37,836 --> 00:25:41,436
Speaker 4: our lives. And that was just really really huge. And

491
00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:45,836
Speaker 4: I am certain you underestimated just how meaningful that was.

492
00:25:45,876 --> 00:25:49,676
Speaker 4: This morning, when I left the house and told CeON

493
00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:52,836
Speaker 4: and Jen, my daughter and wife, that I was going

494
00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:58,316
Speaker 4: to be doing this podcast, they just smiles all around. Oh,

495
00:25:58,356 --> 00:26:01,956
Speaker 4: we love Laurie say hello. That just stands out for

496
00:26:02,036 --> 00:26:05,716
Speaker 4: us like a beacon. And I think the important.

497
00:26:05,276 --> 00:26:07,316
Speaker 1: Well before you say the important part. I mean, it's

498
00:26:07,356 --> 00:26:10,356
Speaker 1: so incredible to hear you tell the story and you

499
00:26:10,356 --> 00:26:11,916
Speaker 1: know you had a little thanks over email, but I'm

500
00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:15,156
Speaker 1: watching you almost tear up explaining the story. And two

501
00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:17,596
Speaker 1: things from my side. Right First, I had no idea

502
00:26:17,756 --> 00:26:19,516
Speaker 1: it impacted you and see On that much. I mean,

503
00:26:19,516 --> 00:26:20,876
Speaker 1: if I had guess, I'm like, oh, it was probably

504
00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:22,756
Speaker 1: cool to get the video or to get the T shirts.

505
00:26:22,836 --> 00:26:24,876
Speaker 1: I had no idea you'd still be thinking about it,

506
00:26:24,956 --> 00:26:27,876
Speaker 1: you'd still remember it, that you'd still be using the mugs. Right, So,

507
00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:31,316
Speaker 1: completely underestimated the value to you. But on my end,

508
00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:33,476
Speaker 1: I thought it was so when you reached out and

509
00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:36,156
Speaker 1: I got that email about Seon. I thought, not excited,

510
00:26:36,156 --> 00:26:37,636
Speaker 1: it's not the right word, but I felt so touch

511
00:26:37,716 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 1: that you shared that with me. It seemed like such

512
00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:42,036
Speaker 1: a personal thing about your family. I knew we're friends

513
00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:43,956
Speaker 1: and colleagues and you've been on the show, but it

514
00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:46,556
Speaker 1: just made me feel so much more connected to you,

515
00:26:46,596 --> 00:26:49,396
Speaker 1: to know you much more personally, and that felt so

516
00:26:49,516 --> 00:26:51,316
Speaker 1: nice to kind of feel like you were willing to

517
00:26:51,316 --> 00:26:53,716
Speaker 1: share that with me, And I was super excited to

518
00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 1: be able to do that, you know, like to me,

519
00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:57,796
Speaker 1: you know, the Happiness lab t shirts didn't feel like

520
00:26:57,836 --> 00:26:59,876
Speaker 1: a big deal, you know, even the part about like,

521
00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:02,796
Speaker 1: you know, having our live audience do that. But it

522
00:27:02,836 --> 00:27:04,636
Speaker 1: was just fun for me, and honestly, it was fun

523
00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:06,196
Speaker 1: for the folks at the live show. I think if

524
00:27:06,196 --> 00:27:07,436
Speaker 1: I had to pick, you know, one of the best

525
00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:09,836
Speaker 1: moments of that live show, they kind of enjoyed most,

526
00:27:09,916 --> 00:27:12,716
Speaker 1: Like you know, streaming for ceone. So it's kind of

527
00:27:12,716 --> 00:27:14,996
Speaker 1: off in two ways, right. It's like, you didn't realize

528
00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:18,396
Speaker 1: the value that I would get from engaging in helping you,

529
00:27:18,516 --> 00:27:20,716
Speaker 1: and I didn't realize, you know, even now, the value

530
00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:22,996
Speaker 1: that you got out of that action, and we you

531
00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:25,636
Speaker 1: and I are both like the world, You're a world

532
00:27:25,636 --> 00:27:27,796
Speaker 1: extra on this. I'm the podcast, right, we should know

533
00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:28,636
Speaker 1: how to do this better.

534
00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:32,636
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I will say, I think to my credit,

535
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:36,236
Speaker 4: at least I have learned the power that kindness can have,

536
00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:39,956
Speaker 4: particularly things that seem small and easy for somebody to do.

537
00:27:40,276 --> 00:27:43,276
Speaker 4: We also learned through our research that people tend to

538
00:27:43,396 --> 00:27:46,636
Speaker 4: underestimate how positively others respond when you reach out and

539
00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:48,916
Speaker 4: ask them for help, ask them to do things that

540
00:27:48,956 --> 00:27:54,276
Speaker 4: they can do, give them an opportunity to experience relational connection, competency,

541
00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:58,236
Speaker 4: and autonomy. I've actually come to think differently about asking

542
00:27:58,596 --> 00:28:00,636
Speaker 4: for help from other people when I need it, when

543
00:28:00,676 --> 00:28:02,916
Speaker 4: I think other people can really be helpful, I've come

544
00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:04,756
Speaker 4: to think of it as an act of selfishness because

545
00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:07,916
Speaker 4: I've deprived somebody else of the opportunity to feel good

546
00:28:08,196 --> 00:28:10,996
Speaker 4: and more connected to us by helping us in some way.

547
00:28:11,156 --> 00:28:12,956
Speaker 1: And I think this is a really important point on

548
00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:16,196
Speaker 1: Giving Tuesday right, which is that we often think of

549
00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:19,156
Speaker 1: acts of kindness as giving something right. We have to

550
00:28:19,156 --> 00:28:21,796
Speaker 1: give money to this campaign to give directly, which is great,

551
00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:24,236
Speaker 1: but one of the things we can actually do to

552
00:28:24,276 --> 00:28:27,556
Speaker 1: help someone else is to let them help us. That

553
00:28:27,596 --> 00:28:30,036
Speaker 1: can be really important for anyone who's listening, who's feeling

554
00:28:30,076 --> 00:28:32,956
Speaker 1: like this giving Tuesday. I either don't have the finances

555
00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:35,236
Speaker 1: or I don't have the bandwidth to kind of do

556
00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,716
Speaker 1: what I would normally like to do. Sometimes asking for

557
00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:40,036
Speaker 1: help can be that gift back. It's a way to

558
00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:41,956
Speaker 1: sort of give to other people too. Yeah.

559
00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 4: So it turns out that when people, for instance, ask

560
00:28:44,676 --> 00:28:48,156
Speaker 4: for advice, there's some interesting research on this, they think

561
00:28:48,156 --> 00:28:50,116
Speaker 4: they're going to be seen as not very competent. But

562
00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:52,236
Speaker 4: in fact, when you ask somebody for advice, I mean,

563
00:28:52,276 --> 00:28:54,996
Speaker 4: think about how you feel when you actually give what

564
00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:57,236
Speaker 4: you think is helpful advice to somebody else. That makes

565
00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:00,836
Speaker 4: feel good you're helping somebody else. That's an example of

566
00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:03,116
Speaker 4: how we can ask for help when we need it

567
00:29:03,116 --> 00:29:05,796
Speaker 4: in ways that are beneficial both to us and of

568
00:29:05,796 --> 00:29:08,076
Speaker 4: the person giving us. And I think you're right. We

569
00:29:08,116 --> 00:29:10,876
Speaker 4: think of this often as as zero sum. I'm giving

570
00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,076
Speaker 4: in your getting, and there's a zero sum nature to this,

571
00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:17,276
Speaker 4: but that's not the way kindness actually works psychologically. It

572
00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 4: can uplift both sides, particularly when we do kindness or

573
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:24,916
Speaker 4: we seek kindness in a way that's authentic, that has

574
00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:27,836
Speaker 4: good intentions at heart, that's what tends to be uplifting.

575
00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,316
Speaker 1: So we just talked about ways that you can ask

576
00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:33,476
Speaker 1: for help, and that's kind of participating in giving Tuesday,

577
00:29:33,476 --> 00:29:35,076
Speaker 1: even though it doesn't feel like it because you might,

578
00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:37,636
Speaker 1: in some sense even be getting monetary stuff from other people.

579
00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:40,556
Speaker 1: Are there other ways that we can kind of give

580
00:29:40,716 --> 00:29:43,156
Speaker 1: to others that don't cost us any money.

581
00:29:43,236 --> 00:29:46,236
Speaker 4: So the biggest ways to do this are in psychological

582
00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:48,876
Speaker 4: self affirming sorts of ways. And I think the two

583
00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:51,996
Speaker 4: that at least we've studied in our research that are

584
00:29:52,036 --> 00:29:56,716
Speaker 4: the clearest examples of this involve psychological acts of kindness,

585
00:29:56,716 --> 00:30:00,716
Speaker 4: where we express our appreciation to somebody else, either in

586
00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:04,036
Speaker 4: the form of gratitude or in the form of compliments.

587
00:30:04,236 --> 00:30:07,236
Speaker 4: Those are cases where you're not exchanging money. If I

588
00:30:07,276 --> 00:30:10,116
Speaker 4: tell you that I like the necklace here wearing today,

589
00:30:10,316 --> 00:30:13,876
Speaker 4: or that I'm so grateful for the kindness you showed

590
00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:16,276
Speaker 4: us when we were going through a hard time, I'm

591
00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:20,836
Speaker 4: not exchanging anything of objective value there. But what I'm

592
00:30:20,876 --> 00:30:23,716
Speaker 4: doing is I am uplifting you in some way. I'm

593
00:30:23,756 --> 00:30:28,276
Speaker 4: affirming you as a positive person when I'm feeling it.

594
00:30:28,476 --> 00:30:31,756
Speaker 4: What's interesting to me is that in many cases, when

595
00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:35,756
Speaker 4: we feel these emotions, when we feel appreciation of gratitude

596
00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:38,716
Speaker 4: for somebody else, when we have a kind thought about

597
00:30:38,756 --> 00:30:41,436
Speaker 4: somebody else, we're a little nervous to share it, right,

598
00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:44,196
Speaker 4: We're a little reluctant to send it out. One of

599
00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:47,716
Speaker 4: my good friends in the field and somebody you know well,

600
00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:51,156
Speaker 4: Jillian Sanstrom who's in the UK, just ran a demonstration

601
00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:54,796
Speaker 4: in her class there in the UK where she had

602
00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:58,236
Speaker 4: people write gratitude letters, gave them an opportunity to send it.

603
00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:00,956
Speaker 4: Even when they wrote it, most people didn't send a letter.

604
00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:04,396
Speaker 4: They were nervous, right. We've seen that in our research

605
00:31:04,476 --> 00:31:08,276
Speaker 4: as well. We had people in one experiment generate compliments

606
00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,116
Speaker 4: to send us somebody else. In the experiment, we gave

607
00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:13,436
Speaker 4: them a two minute window to send it in the

608
00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:16,436
Speaker 4: experiment like they had already generated. It wasn't hard. They

609
00:31:16,476 --> 00:31:18,956
Speaker 4: just had to send it out. And most people didn't

610
00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:22,476
Speaker 4: send along the compliment. They were waiting for the right

611
00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:24,396
Speaker 4: time or something. It was awkward at the moment. There

612
00:31:24,396 --> 00:31:28,956
Speaker 4: were yet other barriers, right, And those barriers are interesting

613
00:31:29,156 --> 00:31:31,556
Speaker 4: to me. We find in our work that with both

614
00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:35,516
Speaker 4: appreciation and compliments, people think it'll have a less positive

615
00:31:35,556 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 4: impact on the recipient than it actually does. In the

616
00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:41,596
Speaker 4: cases of expressing gratitude, these are folks who typically know

617
00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:44,476
Speaker 4: each other very well, been together for a long time,

618
00:31:44,676 --> 00:31:46,356
Speaker 4: or this is a person they've been very close to

619
00:31:46,476 --> 00:31:48,956
Speaker 4: for a long time, and yet even with that, they

620
00:31:48,996 --> 00:31:51,596
Speaker 4: still think it'll be weird for somebody to receive this

621
00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:53,156
Speaker 4: letter out of the blue. I do this in my

622
00:31:53,316 --> 00:31:57,556
Speaker 4: MBA class every year, and every year I get stories

623
00:31:57,676 --> 00:32:01,796
Speaker 4: from my letter writers that they just couldn't believe. Notes

624
00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:04,676
Speaker 4: back saying, dude, don't send this to me at work.

625
00:32:04,716 --> 00:32:07,796
Speaker 4: I can't sit here and cry at my desk. Right

626
00:32:08,316 --> 00:32:12,076
Speaker 4: really really powerful, surprisingly powerful. I never expected my mother

627
00:32:12,516 --> 00:32:16,836
Speaker 4: would respond this way. It is your mother, and you

628
00:32:16,876 --> 00:32:20,596
Speaker 4: are underestimating how uplifted she'll be when you actually express

629
00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:23,236
Speaker 4: your true beliefs to her, even small compliments. I was

630
00:32:23,276 --> 00:32:26,236
Speaker 4: on the train coming in this morning, my morning commute.

631
00:32:26,276 --> 00:32:29,436
Speaker 4: I got onto the platform in Philosmore, where we lived.

632
00:32:29,436 --> 00:32:32,596
Speaker 4: There was a woman standing there who had a shacket

633
00:32:32,916 --> 00:32:35,156
Speaker 4: like this is like a jacket shirt sort of thing

634
00:32:36,196 --> 00:32:39,196
Speaker 4: that I thought my wife would love that. That looks

635
00:32:39,476 --> 00:32:41,836
Speaker 4: really nice. So I went up to her and I

636
00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:46,756
Speaker 4: told her I love that jacket, and I think my

637
00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:48,236
Speaker 4: wife would love it. Can you just tell me where

638
00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:51,436
Speaker 4: you got it from? Right? And she was. She just

639
00:32:51,476 --> 00:32:55,036
Speaker 4: beamed instantly when I told her how great this looked

640
00:32:55,996 --> 00:32:57,876
Speaker 4: and shared with it and I found it on the

641
00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:01,156
Speaker 4: way in and sh she'll be getting it for Christmas.

642
00:33:01,276 --> 00:33:02,836
Speaker 1: Jen, don't listen, don't listen.

643
00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:05,116
Speaker 4: No, Well, it doesn't always have to be a surprise.

644
00:33:06,556 --> 00:33:08,996
Speaker 4: But what's interesting is that we often have these barriers.

645
00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,676
Speaker 4: We think it'll be awkward to give this compliment, and

646
00:33:12,316 --> 00:33:14,236
Speaker 4: we find people just tend to be off about that.

647
00:33:14,316 --> 00:33:17,116
Speaker 4: It's more positive for the recipient that we think it'll be.

648
00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:19,236
Speaker 1: This kind of reminds me of another domain that I

649
00:33:19,276 --> 00:33:21,716
Speaker 1: think we can help others that we often forget. And

650
00:33:21,796 --> 00:33:24,596
Speaker 1: it comes from an experience I had recently. So a

651
00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:26,556
Speaker 1: good friend of mine, I think someone you know, Nick

652
00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:30,076
Speaker 1: Jason Mitchell. He and his wife just had another baby

653
00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:32,316
Speaker 1: and I found this out and I was thinking, like, oh,

654
00:33:32,356 --> 00:33:33,956
Speaker 1: I want to help, Maybe I should kick some food

655
00:33:34,076 --> 00:33:36,996
Speaker 1: or something, but I wasn't really sure how to do it.

656
00:33:37,476 --> 00:33:40,476
Speaker 1: And what another friend of ours did, which was amazing,

657
00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:42,276
Speaker 1: was she set up kind of a meal train. So

658
00:33:42,316 --> 00:33:44,436
Speaker 1: she emailed all of Jason's friends and was like, hey,

659
00:33:44,436 --> 00:33:46,836
Speaker 1: here's the dates, here's what they like, you know, here's

660
00:33:47,156 --> 00:33:50,156
Speaker 1: you know, bring it. And this friend was really helpful

661
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:52,116
Speaker 1: to me because I was sitting there thinking like, oh,

662
00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:54,516
Speaker 1: I want to do something, but I kind of didn't

663
00:33:54,556 --> 00:33:57,316
Speaker 1: have the permission or the structure. I think this is

664
00:33:57,356 --> 00:33:59,556
Speaker 1: something else we can do a lot. Right, if you

665
00:33:59,636 --> 00:34:02,556
Speaker 1: have a cause and need set up the structure, email

666
00:34:02,596 --> 00:34:04,276
Speaker 1: your friends and say here's how you're going to do it.

667
00:34:04,316 --> 00:34:06,036
Speaker 1: Here's how much money, here's how you can help.

668
00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:09,356
Speaker 4: We can think about intervening on these barriers and too way.

669
00:34:09,716 --> 00:34:11,756
Speaker 4: One is at the personal level. What is it that

670
00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:14,876
Speaker 4: I can do to overcome some of these barriers a

671
00:34:14,876 --> 00:34:18,116
Speaker 4: little more wisely in cases where the barrier is kind

672
00:34:18,116 --> 00:34:21,476
Speaker 4: of misplaced, so you know, that would involve you figuring

673
00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:23,076
Speaker 4: out what is the right thing to do or what

674
00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:25,916
Speaker 4: is the thing I'm comfortable doing right. That's an individual

675
00:34:26,036 --> 00:34:28,636
Speaker 4: level intervention. But the other thing that is actually more

676
00:34:28,716 --> 00:34:31,716
Speaker 4: effective at scale is a system level intervention. These are

677
00:34:31,756 --> 00:34:35,916
Speaker 4: sometimes called S level interventions by psychologists having to do

678
00:34:35,916 --> 00:34:37,956
Speaker 4: with a system level. And that's what your friend did

679
00:34:38,276 --> 00:34:42,156
Speaker 4: is set up a context that overcame this barrier. I'm

680
00:34:42,156 --> 00:34:44,116
Speaker 4: not sure what to do. I'm not sure how to

681
00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:46,236
Speaker 4: do it right, Those are barriers to doing kind things.

682
00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:49,876
Speaker 4: Overcame that barrier for a lot of you and allowed

683
00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:53,596
Speaker 4: people to contribute here. I did something like that with

684
00:34:53,676 --> 00:34:56,916
Speaker 4: these barriers in mind a couple of years ago, when

685
00:34:56,956 --> 00:34:59,836
Speaker 4: one of our staff members here at the University of

686
00:34:59,916 --> 00:35:03,156
Speaker 4: Chicago was going through a cancer scare of her own.

687
00:35:03,596 --> 00:35:06,676
Speaker 4: We set up a gratitude chain, and so we set

688
00:35:06,756 --> 00:35:08,716
Speaker 4: up for a few months at a time and extended

689
00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:10,836
Speaker 4: it for a few few months. More people were on

690
00:35:10,876 --> 00:35:13,676
Speaker 4: call just to write something that they were grateful to

691
00:35:13,716 --> 00:35:16,476
Speaker 4: this person. For this person is amazing. People have no

692
00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:19,156
Speaker 4: shortage of things to be grateful for towards her. But

693
00:35:19,196 --> 00:35:21,476
Speaker 4: what that meant is that she got a gratitude letter

694
00:35:21,556 --> 00:35:25,276
Speaker 4: every day spread out over time. She keeps them now

695
00:35:25,316 --> 00:35:29,956
Speaker 4: on a scrapbook, and we had way more people express

696
00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:33,476
Speaker 4: their gratitude and appreciation to this person than would have otherwise.

697
00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:36,356
Speaker 4: Because you're right, we set up this kind of permission

698
00:35:36,396 --> 00:35:39,036
Speaker 4: structure for people to do it, and that was very effective.

699
00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:41,076
Speaker 1: So we could to talk about one last barrier that

700
00:35:41,156 --> 00:35:43,956
Speaker 1: I know for me winds up impeding more than i'd

701
00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:46,876
Speaker 1: like my ability to do kind actions for other peoples.

702
00:35:46,956 --> 00:35:49,756
Speaker 1: And that's the barrier of time, right, you know, even

703
00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:51,236
Speaker 1: in this case with this good friend of mine had

704
00:35:51,236 --> 00:35:52,556
Speaker 1: a baby, I was like, oh, man, I want to

705
00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:54,276
Speaker 1: do something. I want to get a onesie bag something.

706
00:35:54,796 --> 00:35:56,956
Speaker 1: And I went back into my calendar and it kind

707
00:35:56,956 --> 00:35:57,516
Speaker 1: of went away.

708
00:35:57,676 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 4: Right.

709
00:35:58,036 --> 00:35:59,596
Speaker 1: I looked at like, when can I actually go over

710
00:35:59,636 --> 00:36:01,316
Speaker 1: and visit him? I just didn't have any time, And

711
00:36:01,356 --> 00:36:03,956
Speaker 1: so any helpful strategies for how to kind of fight

712
00:36:04,076 --> 00:36:05,876
Speaker 1: the sort of time famine that we all face that

713
00:36:05,916 --> 00:36:07,876
Speaker 1: gets in the way of us doing nice stuff for others.

714
00:36:08,596 --> 00:36:11,796
Speaker 4: Two ways I would think about this. One is to

715
00:36:12,116 --> 00:36:15,636
Speaker 4: remind yourself of the concept, the psychological concept of affordances,

716
00:36:15,956 --> 00:36:19,276
Speaker 4: which is that any given situation has a variety of

717
00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:21,996
Speaker 4: different possible outcomes. So a lot of different ways as

718
00:36:22,036 --> 00:36:24,316
Speaker 4: could go. So our interview could have gone in many

719
00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:27,756
Speaker 4: different directions. Here, my commute in on the train this

720
00:36:27,836 --> 00:36:30,436
Speaker 4: morning could have gone in many different directions. My day,

721
00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:33,076
Speaker 4: you know, I'm walking from the elevator to my office.

722
00:36:33,076 --> 00:36:35,996
Speaker 4: I could do different things in that. Right, There are opportunities.

723
00:36:36,516 --> 00:36:40,396
Speaker 4: If you start keeping an eye out for opportunities for connection,

724
00:36:40,796 --> 00:36:43,716
Speaker 4: things will pop up that don't require any more effort

725
00:36:43,756 --> 00:36:46,716
Speaker 4: from you, don't require any more time, they're just sitting there.

726
00:36:46,916 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 4: It's low hanging fruit on the tree you just hadn't

727
00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:52,076
Speaker 4: seen before, and you start spotting things. So, for instance,

728
00:36:52,276 --> 00:36:54,516
Speaker 4: on the train ride in this morning, I spotted this

729
00:36:54,556 --> 00:36:57,516
Speaker 4: woman wearing this really nice shacket, and it just I

730
00:36:57,596 --> 00:37:01,716
Speaker 4: knew I should say, hey, that looks fantastic, right, And

731
00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:04,156
Speaker 4: I came into the building this morning, there's a guy

732
00:37:04,196 --> 00:37:07,076
Speaker 4: wearing a really nice suit, and I just thought to

733
00:37:07,076 --> 00:37:08,676
Speaker 4: compliment on them that he looked really sharp.

734
00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:09,636
Speaker 2: Acts.

735
00:37:09,716 --> 00:37:11,956
Speaker 4: When you start looking for them, they don't require more time.

736
00:37:11,996 --> 00:37:14,676
Speaker 4: You're already doing something anyway, don't require any more energy.

737
00:37:14,836 --> 00:37:18,276
Speaker 4: They're like freebies almost and you just don't see them otherwise,

738
00:37:18,316 --> 00:37:20,756
Speaker 4: And once you start looking for them, you see more

739
00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:23,436
Speaker 4: of them. So that's one thing, is to start paying attention.

740
00:37:23,716 --> 00:37:29,636
Speaker 4: The second is to disassociate your sense that the positive

741
00:37:29,676 --> 00:37:32,556
Speaker 4: reaction to kindness is a function of how much you do,

742
00:37:33,436 --> 00:37:35,916
Speaker 4: how hard it is for you to do, how much

743
00:37:35,956 --> 00:37:39,316
Speaker 4: effort you put into this thing, and that's just not

744
00:37:39,436 --> 00:37:42,836
Speaker 4: quite true, right. So a charity like give directly has

745
00:37:43,436 --> 00:37:46,556
Speaker 4: positive impact on people that make it easy to give

746
00:37:46,636 --> 00:37:48,956
Speaker 4: money that really matters for folks. It's not hard and

747
00:37:49,076 --> 00:37:51,636
Speaker 4: has a huge impact on them and our daily lives.

748
00:37:51,676 --> 00:37:54,036
Speaker 4: The little things we can do for others around us

749
00:37:54,076 --> 00:37:56,796
Speaker 4: are the things that really have an outsized influence. So

750
00:37:56,836 --> 00:37:58,636
Speaker 4: when you're thinking about what you can do for Jason,

751
00:37:58,636 --> 00:38:00,196
Speaker 4: you're thinking, oh, I got to put a lot of

752
00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:03,756
Speaker 4: effort into it, right, and oh that's hard, and thinking

753
00:38:03,796 --> 00:38:06,596
Speaker 4: that he'll appreciate it more when it's really effortful. No,

754
00:38:06,756 --> 00:38:10,156
Speaker 4: he just would like lasagna on a Thursday night, eight right,

755
00:38:10,716 --> 00:38:14,516
Speaker 4: And it doesn't matter whether you cooked at yourself and

756
00:38:14,556 --> 00:38:17,036
Speaker 4: mailed it. It just would you know, you just want

757
00:38:17,076 --> 00:38:20,156
Speaker 4: to make So when we think that something requires a

758
00:38:20,196 --> 00:38:22,276
Speaker 4: lot of effort, that can often be a barrier and

759
00:38:22,276 --> 00:38:25,156
Speaker 4: we won't do it. Once you start to realize that

760
00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:27,716
Speaker 4: that's not required. Just getting the thing done. Just doing

761
00:38:27,756 --> 00:38:30,996
Speaker 4: the thing is what really matters. Too often, then I

762
00:38:30,996 --> 00:38:33,036
Speaker 4: think it frees you up a little bit. We just

763
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:37,596
Speaker 4: had a teaching assistant of mine from last spring, calf Fredrickson,

764
00:38:37,756 --> 00:38:40,956
Speaker 4: and his wife just had a baby as well, and

765
00:38:41,556 --> 00:38:43,436
Speaker 4: I wanted to send them something, but it was hard

766
00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:45,756
Speaker 4: to get the card and you know, get the thing

767
00:38:45,796 --> 00:38:47,676
Speaker 4: mailed to me and I'll wrap it and send it.

768
00:38:47,836 --> 00:38:50,716
Speaker 4: So instead I just send it through Amazon. Now that's

769
00:38:50,756 --> 00:38:52,956
Speaker 4: not as nice. It's not as personal, but I got

770
00:38:52,996 --> 00:38:57,116
Speaker 4: it done right, and that's what I try to focus

771
00:38:57,116 --> 00:38:58,716
Speaker 4: on more, is just getting it done.

772
00:38:58,996 --> 00:39:01,196
Speaker 1: And I think this is really powerful because it's also

773
00:39:01,236 --> 00:39:04,236
Speaker 1: an active kindness to yourself. I know, sometimes when I'm

774
00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:06,836
Speaker 1: trying to do something kind, I'm so focused on that

775
00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:09,636
Speaker 1: competence piece that you talked about before that I'm like

776
00:39:09,676 --> 00:39:11,596
Speaker 1: beating myself up and I'm not doing it right. I

777
00:39:11,636 --> 00:39:12,996
Speaker 1: mean I had this even when I was making the

778
00:39:12,996 --> 00:39:14,996
Speaker 1: food for Jason, like what kind of food should I make?

779
00:39:15,036 --> 00:39:17,076
Speaker 1: Seems like Chili's really easy? But is that not cool?

780
00:39:17,636 --> 00:39:19,996
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, just be kind to yourself. What

781
00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:22,276
Speaker 1: matters is the act you can kind of give yourself

782
00:39:22,316 --> 00:39:24,636
Speaker 1: some grace that it doesn't have to be perfect. It's

783
00:39:24,636 --> 00:39:27,516
Speaker 1: still actually going to have more impact than you think exactly.

784
00:39:27,556 --> 00:39:31,076
Speaker 4: The difference between good and really good is small. It

785
00:39:31,116 --> 00:39:33,916
Speaker 4: can sometimes require a huge amount of investment on your

786
00:39:34,036 --> 00:39:37,756
Speaker 4: side with very little impact on the recipient side. So

787
00:39:37,996 --> 00:39:40,196
Speaker 4: do the thing that you can do that is good

788
00:39:40,316 --> 00:39:42,716
Speaker 4: enough because it'll likely be great for the recipient.

789
00:39:42,996 --> 00:39:45,836
Speaker 1: So any last minute advice on this giving Tuesday of

790
00:39:45,876 --> 00:39:48,996
Speaker 1: what people can do to be happier themselves and make

791
00:39:48,996 --> 00:39:49,916
Speaker 1: the world a better place.

792
00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:53,476
Speaker 4: So I think probably two things, opportunities for kindness and

793
00:39:53,516 --> 00:39:56,836
Speaker 4: forgiving are all around us. They're just everywhere in our

794
00:39:56,916 --> 00:39:59,316
Speaker 4: day to day lives, and they don't have to be

795
00:39:59,356 --> 00:40:02,236
Speaker 4: big things. One of the most influential findings for me

796
00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:08,436
Speaker 4: from research on happiness and wellbeing is how important just

797
00:40:08,476 --> 00:40:12,116
Speaker 4: repeated act are. We've talked before, happiness is like a

798
00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:14,876
Speaker 4: leaky tire. You pump it up and you feel good

799
00:40:14,876 --> 00:40:16,956
Speaker 4: for a little bit, and then it leaks back down

800
00:40:17,036 --> 00:40:18,796
Speaker 4: and you pump it back, and that means you got

801
00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:21,636
Speaker 4: to keep doing it, keep repeating it right, And turns

802
00:40:21,636 --> 00:40:24,636
Speaker 4: out the amount of uplift or pumping up you get

803
00:40:24,676 --> 00:40:27,756
Speaker 4: and others get from an act of kindness isn't as

804
00:40:27,756 --> 00:40:31,236
Speaker 4: dependent on how big the act is as you might imagine, right,

805
00:40:31,716 --> 00:40:34,436
Speaker 4: And so I think we can really enrich our lives

806
00:40:34,476 --> 00:40:36,836
Speaker 4: if we realize if we just keep an eye out

807
00:40:36,876 --> 00:40:39,836
Speaker 4: for the low hanging fruit around us, that's a good

808
00:40:39,836 --> 00:40:42,916
Speaker 4: way to keep kindness kind of sustainable because there's just

809
00:40:42,996 --> 00:40:45,276
Speaker 4: so many In addition to the big things we might do,

810
00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:48,196
Speaker 4: the rational effective things we might do, there are also

811
00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:52,956
Speaker 4: so many little uplifting things we can do expressing kindness

812
00:40:53,196 --> 00:40:57,356
Speaker 4: expressing gratitude, giving compliments, saying all to people being civil

813
00:40:57,916 --> 00:41:00,356
Speaker 4: don't require a lot of effort, but keep that tire

814
00:41:00,396 --> 00:41:01,916
Speaker 4: pumped up in a way that keeps us and others

815
00:41:01,956 --> 00:41:02,476
Speaker 4: feeling good.

816
00:41:03,356 --> 00:41:05,356
Speaker 1: I started the show by saying how much I like

817
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:08,076
Speaker 1: Giving Tuesday. But Nick's right to point out that we

818
00:41:08,076 --> 00:41:11,436
Speaker 1: should really be trying to generosity a daily habit, not

819
00:41:11,516 --> 00:41:14,436
Speaker 1: just an annual thing. But Giving Tuesday is as good

820
00:41:14,436 --> 00:41:16,476
Speaker 1: a day as any to start that long term habit.

821
00:41:16,836 --> 00:41:18,476
Speaker 1: So if you have a dollar or two to spare,

822
00:41:18,796 --> 00:41:21,476
Speaker 1: why not start right this minute by making a donation

823
00:41:21,556 --> 00:41:23,716
Speaker 1: that can help people in need, the same way we

824
00:41:23,756 --> 00:41:25,676
Speaker 1: help the people of Kebobo last year.

825
00:41:26,196 --> 00:41:29,476
Speaker 2: The work goes on the list of villages like Kibobo

826
00:41:29,876 --> 00:41:33,116
Speaker 2: is still long. I wish one day we don't have

827
00:41:33,196 --> 00:41:35,956
Speaker 2: to send clash transfers to people, but in the meantime

828
00:41:36,276 --> 00:41:38,596
Speaker 2: there is a need, then we need to continue to work.

829
00:41:39,156 --> 00:41:41,356
Speaker 1: For twenty twenty four, we're teaming up with our friends

830
00:41:41,396 --> 00:41:44,996
Speaker 1: a Giving Multiplier to handle all your donations. So head

831
00:41:44,996 --> 00:41:49,276
Speaker 1: to giving Multiplier dot org slash happiness. That's Giving Multiplier

832
00:41:49,356 --> 00:41:52,396
Speaker 1: dot org slash happiness. On that site, you can send

833
00:41:52,436 --> 00:41:55,516
Speaker 1: money to villages like Kebobo via give directly while at

834
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:57,916
Speaker 1: the same time directing money to a charity that's close

835
00:41:57,956 --> 00:42:01,196
Speaker 1: to your heart. What could those charities be well. This

836
00:42:01,236 --> 00:42:03,876
Speaker 1: show was sponsored by the twenty twenty four Subaru Share

837
00:42:03,916 --> 00:42:06,516
Speaker 1: the Love event. Subaru has a long track record of

838
00:42:06,516 --> 00:42:09,516
Speaker 1: supporting good causes, and while making this episode, I got

839
00:42:09,516 --> 00:42:12,036
Speaker 1: to learn about some of them. There's Meals on Wheels,

840
00:42:12,076 --> 00:42:14,996
Speaker 1: which brings nutrition and friendly visits to our seniors, The

841
00:42:15,076 --> 00:42:17,996
Speaker 1: National Park Foundation, which is helping all of us get

842
00:42:17,996 --> 00:42:20,436
Speaker 1: out in nature. There's Make a Wish, which is allowing

843
00:42:20,436 --> 00:42:23,676
Speaker 1: the dreams of ill children to come true. And the ASPCA,

844
00:42:23,796 --> 00:42:27,036
Speaker 1: which protects animals from cruelty while giving carring pet owners

845
00:42:27,076 --> 00:42:29,636
Speaker 1: the help they need. The point is there are lots

846
00:42:29,676 --> 00:42:32,076
Speaker 1: of groups out there doing good work, so head over

847
00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:35,036
Speaker 1: to giving multiplier dot org and donate what you can

848
00:42:35,796 --> 00:42:39,676
Speaker 1: that's giving multiplier dot org slash happiness. May your Giving

849
00:42:39,716 --> 00:42:42,836
Speaker 1: Tuesday donation be just the first step in exploring both

850
00:42:42,836 --> 00:42:44,716
Speaker 1: the good that you're able to do in the world

851
00:42:45,116 --> 00:42:47,156
Speaker 1: and the good that being kinder can do for you.

852
00:42:47,796 --> 00:42:49,196
Speaker 1: Happy Giving Tuesday everyone,