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So I had to be at a 42 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 1: friend's house in Annapolis at six and it was three 43 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I got time, and I have an address, 44 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: so I'm going to go to his house and that 45 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: I could say hello, Douglass's house, right. Kim has never 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 1: forgotten about Doug, the married state trooper who is in 47 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: a relationship with Sandy before her death. In fact, she 48 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 1: has asked an impressive file on him. She's paid for 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: background checks on his name, studied his wife's Facebook page, 50 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: researched the properties the couple own. She even went to 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: the trouble of requesting Doug's training records from the State Police. 52 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 1: And she's done all this because of her suspicion that 53 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: Doug knows why Sandy was in the poleyard that night. 54 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: She thinks he might have been with her because in 55 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: the months before Sandy's death, they had an intimate relationship, 56 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: one that led, according to Sandy's writings, to a pregnancy 57 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: and an abortion, and on the night of her death, 58 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: Sandy was dressed up like she was meeting someone for 59 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: a date. The medical examiner found quote numerous well preserved 60 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: spermatozoa inside her body and the location of Sandy's death 61 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: the Poleyard. It was a local cop hangout a mile 62 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: from where Doug worked. In the car with Sandy was 63 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: a letter for him. As much as Kim has wanted 64 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: answers from Doug, she's always been too afraid to reach 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: out to him directly, worried about how he might react 66 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: to her meddling. But on her last trip to Maryland, 67 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: she decided to pay him a visit. So I'm driving 68 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: down this little cul de sac and I'm thinking, you 69 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: know nothing, I'm not nervous or anything. And so I 70 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: keep going and there's this little dinky road because I 71 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: see a house out in the woods. So I've already 72 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:40,799 Speaker 1: gone down this wooded path. I'm driving down this road, 73 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 1: and my brain must have registered the sign that said 74 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: video surveillance stapled to a tree trunk was a sign 75 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: that warned visitors they were being recorded. And then all 76 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: of a sudden, I see his house. I trust my 77 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: instincts and I just hit my brake some now because 78 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: now I'm like, I'm going deeper into the woods and 79 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: it's getting a little creepier, and so I stop and 80 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: I start thinking, Okay, I'm getting I'm like taking a 81 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: little bit too much risk. I'm going to back out. 82 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 1: So I back out and leave in my heart's like racin. 83 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: Kim left without making contact with Doug. Her courage had 84 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: only taken her so far. What Kim didn't know at 85 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: the time was that Doug had recently had another unexpected visitor. 86 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: Just a few days earlier, a Prince George's County Police 87 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: detective showed up on Doug's doorstep asking questions about Sandy. 88 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 1: From iHeartRadio. I'm Melissa Jelson, and this is what happened 89 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: to Sandy Beale an iHeart original podcast, Chapter seven, The unravel. 90 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: I'll come back to Doug later, but first I want 91 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: to explain why Kim was in Maryland. To begin with, 92 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: she had been invited to meet with a cold case detective, 93 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: Bernie Nelson, at the Prince George's County Police headquarters in Forestville. 94 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: Kim had never met Bernie before, but she'd known of 95 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: him since two thousand and six. He's the one who 96 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: answered her call when she first tried to get the 97 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: police report, and he's also the one in twenty nineteen 98 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: who actually tracked it down, going to Detective Shoushelski's house 99 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: to physically retrieve it. I mean, I've heard this man's 100 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: name since two thousand and six and it's twenty twenty one. 101 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: So that was kind of exciting that I was going 102 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,559 Speaker 1: to finally meet him. He could have just blown me off, 103 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: but he didn't. And so on a brisk morning in October, 104 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: Bernie and Kim finally met in person, wearing masks. Due 105 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: to the coronavirus pandemic. Kim wasn't permitted to record their conversation, 106 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: but she invited her sister along and she took diligent notes. 107 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: I've used these contemporaneous notes, interviews with Kim, and written 108 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: responses from PG County to create this account of the meeting. 109 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: So this is eleven o'clock on Monday morning, and he asks, so, 110 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: how did all this podcast stuff happen? And so he 111 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: was very interested, and I encouraged him. I'm like, I 112 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: really think it's in your best interest to allow them 113 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: to interview you. Because he's stating, he goes, well, we 114 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: don't think that we should have to do it because 115 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: we've done our due diligence, and we've done everything that 116 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: we can and the powers to be believe there's nothing 117 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: else that we can do. And I'm like, how can 118 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: you say you've done everything? I've got all these questions, 119 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: and we've had questions for years. Kim was excited, but nervous. 120 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: A previous meeting with the state police years ago had 121 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: left him feeling intimidated. She brought with her a list 122 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 1: of questions for Bernie so that she wouldn't forget what 123 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: she wanted to say. And this guy was calm and 124 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: was wanting to educate me on his part on how 125 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: they saw it. Bernie told her that the department had 126 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: thirteen hundred coal cases and very hew staff to work 127 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: them all, but he had taken the time to get 128 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: familiar with Sandy's case. He knew, for instance, about the 129 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: ride along notations in Sandy's calendar, the names and numbers 130 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: of local police officers in her address books. Kim told 131 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: Bernie what she thought that a number of cops had 132 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: taken advantage of Sandy pursuing inappropriate sexual relationships with the teen, 133 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: and to her surprise, he didn't dispute it. He agreed 134 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: that at the time, the climate was not there for 135 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: females to be police officers, and they didn't want her. 136 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: They did not want females to be there. He agreed 137 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: that all these officers were inappropriate. None of their behaviors 138 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: was becoming, and today they would have all been terminated, 139 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: or at least they should have been in his opinion. 140 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: And Nelson's going, I don't condone any of their behavior. 141 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: He was disgusted as we were talking, and I just 142 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: was floored that he was being so accountable. Bernie told 143 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: Kim that he understood why the Bill family was so 144 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: suspicious of PG County police given the circumstances, and he 145 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: came across as sincere to Kim, and he's like, I 146 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: understand why you guys doubt everything. He also credited Kim 147 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: with the amount of stuff she'd been able to dig 148 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: up on her own, acknowledging her fierce commitment to the case. 149 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: He said, you've done your homework. He said, you did 150 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: a good job with this. And he's like, that's another 151 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: reason that I wanted to find three, because he knew 152 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: you're not gonna let me go here. While Bernie was 153 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: telling Kim all of this, there was another cop in 154 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: the room detective McDonald. He remained fairly quiet throughout the meeting. 155 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: Kim didn't even know why he was there until he 156 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: started telling her about his recent visit to Doug's house. 157 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: Just days earlier, Detective McDonald had surprised the retired state 158 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: trooper at his home and questioned him about his involvement 159 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: with Sandy. I was able to confirm with PG County 160 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: Police that this visit took place, so McDonald called him 161 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: outside the house and he said, I questioned him for 162 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. An hour and a half, 163 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: that's a long time to visit with somebody, according to McDonald. 164 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: Doug admitted that he'd had a relationship with Sandy, but 165 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: he downplayed its significance. He said he did not know 166 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: she was pregnant. He did not know she had in 167 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: a board. He didn't pay for any abortion. Doug confirmed 168 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: that the poleyard where Sandy was found dead was a 169 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 1: local hangout for state troopers and a place Sandy had 170 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: gone before. The Bills, including Kim, had suspected this for years. 171 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: He told MacDonald that Pepco Utility yard was the common 172 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: spot for Maryland State Police that gathered, and it was 173 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: called the eighty eight. Don't know what that means, but 174 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: the spot was called the eighty eight. He said, girls, 175 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: including Sandy, would come and socialize with the cops. He 176 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: said it was kind of like a groupie thing, like 177 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: they followed a band, and that the cops would just 178 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: gather there. But that was the extent of the information 179 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: Doug would share about Sandy. He denied being in the 180 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: poleyard the night of Sandy's death or having anything to 181 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: do with it. He said he had not been in 182 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: the pole yard that evening. He said, I didn't know 183 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: that she was dead until my supervisor brought me in 184 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: a few days later. He said, my supervisor reported to 185 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: me and that I was questioned. That Maryland State Police 186 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: did interview him made him do a polygraph. Doug stated 187 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: that after Sandy's death, his employer, the Maryland State Police, 188 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: opened an internal investigation on his relationship with the teen. 189 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: He said he was polygraphed to determine if his actions 190 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: violated the agency's code of conduct. So Doug was questioned 191 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: back then, but not by Prince George's County Police, who 192 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: were investigating Sandy's unnatural death. Rather, he had to answer 193 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: to his employer, who probably learned of the improper relationship 194 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: from Detective Shoshchlski. All of this it happened behind the 195 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: Bill's back. Joanne, Sandy's mom, was never informed about this investigation, 196 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: despite the fact that she called the state police looking 197 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: for Doug and expressed her concerns about the relationship. I 198 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: want to know what else they learned from him, and 199 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's stuff they didn't want me to know 200 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: because was going to hurt my feelings. In Kim's eyes, 201 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: Doug had always existed in this protected bubble, untouchable, living 202 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: above the law. Now learning that he hadn't completely evaded scrutiny, 203 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: that he was compelled to explain his relationship with Sandy 204 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: on his front lawn, no less, it left her feeling elated. 205 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: To be clear, Kim didn't believe that Doug told the 206 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: whole truth, and she had so many more questions for him, 207 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: but it felt like a small victory that he had 208 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: acknowledged and confirmed his relationship with Sandy, because this was 209 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: something I'd tried to get him to do to no avail. 210 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 1: Doug never responded to my many letters and emails, even 211 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: though I have an email tracker and I could tell 212 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: that someone had read my messages, often many times soon 213 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: after I sent them. But Doug wasn't able to ignore 214 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: a detective on his doorstep, and so four decades after 215 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: Sandy's death, he was forced to remember her. There's no 216 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: sign of identity theft slowing down, and why should it. 217 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: More than twenty nine billion dollars were stolen from identity 218 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: theft victims last year alone. To cyber criminals, it's a 219 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: success story. To the rest of us, it's a wake 220 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: up call. Your personal info is in more places now 221 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: than ever, and all that exposure can make it dangerously 222 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: easy to steal your identity. 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That's LifeLock dot com slash iHeart 231 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: to save twenty five percent your first year LifeLock Identity 232 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: Theft Protection starts here a brand new historical true crime podcast. 233 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York. The 234 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: first murder trial in the American judicial system, a messans 235 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: trial for the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers 236 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton and Erin Burr on the case, this is 237 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: probably the most famous trial you've never heard of. When 238 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: you lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope 239 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: you'll think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need 240 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: anything simplified, mister Hamilton, Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn as 241 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton. Don't be so sad, It doesn't suit you. 242 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: Written and created by me Alison Flock. Listen to Erased 243 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: the Murder of Elma Sans. She was a sweet, happy 244 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: virtue girl until she met that man right there on 245 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to 246 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When Tercy were Kill Burns was two years old, 247 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: her baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died 248 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: in an accident, and no one really talked about it. 249 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: Her parents told police she had killed him. Medical records 250 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: said that I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. 251 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that 252 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: tells the truth, an incredible story of a toddler who 253 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: was framed for murder and how she grew into an 254 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: adult determined to get justice and protect her family. While 255 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: we had prosecuted some cold cases, this was the coldest, 256 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: This was frigid. But how does a two year old 257 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: get blamed for murder? She said? We wanted a new life. 258 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: You just don't know what it's like when you'll do 259 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: anything for something. Listen to Burden of Guilt on the 260 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 261 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: Curiosity Stream is the streaming service for people who want 262 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: to know more and now. Check out Curiosity's new series, 263 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: The Real Wild West. Rolling Stone Magazine says, it's the 264 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: history of the West. They usually don't teach you the 265 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: The mythology of the West left out a lot of 266 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: the people. People said they'd never seen a black cow boy. 267 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: This is the history book, but did you know about 268 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: these other facts? Watch The Real Wild West now on 269 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: Curiosity Stream with monthly, annual, and bundled plans. Find the 270 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: one that works for you at CuriosityStream dot com. Head 271 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: into Safeway for great deals throughout the store. This week 272 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: at Safeway, get value packs of USDA Choice boneless beef 273 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: Try Tip Roast or sixteen to twenty count bags of 274 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: Waterfront Bistro Extra Jumbo raw shrimp for three ninety seven 275 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 1: per pound with digital coupon limit two packages. Plus get 276 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: two pound packages of large strawberries for the member price 277 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: of four ninety nine each. Also this week at Safeway, 278 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: get Signature Farms ninety percent lean ground b for sixteen 279 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: ounce packages of Jennyo ground turkey varieties. Buy one, get 280 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: one free. Visit Safeway dot com or head in store 281 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: for more deals. The cold case detectives never explained to 282 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: Kim why they visited Doug, and I can't say for 283 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: sure because Prince George's County Police declined to make anyone 284 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: available for an interview. But my instinct is not that 285 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: they suspected Doug of murder, but that they wanted to 286 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: show the bills that they'd done something, because despite the 287 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: recent visit to Doug's house, the PG County Police Department 288 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: was still convinced that Sandy died by suicide. He stated 289 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: that they believed that there was no fall play, that 290 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: no further investigation needed to be done, and they didn't 291 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: need to investigate anything further because they felt there was 292 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: nothing criminal in nature. Bernie told her that based on 293 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: the forensic evidence at the scene of Sandy's death, it 294 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: was indisputable that she died by suicide. But Kim had 295 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: seen all the same evidence as Bernie and had come 296 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: to a dramatically different conclusion. And we're going back and 297 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: forth arguing, and he's like no, and so I pull 298 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: out all my notes and I put him out there. 299 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: For years, Kim had been compiling what she believed were 300 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 1: the most compelling pieces of evidence that cast doubt on 301 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: the theory of suicide. Now, Kim went over each point 302 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: one by one. There was the gun discovered without any fingerprints. 303 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: There was the cardboard found under Sandy's tires, which indicated 304 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: to Kim that Sandy was trying to leave. There was 305 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: the fact that Sandy's body was discovered so close to 306 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: her boyfriend's place of work, and yet he was not 307 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: interviewed by Prince George's County Police as part of the 308 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: death investigation. There was the sperm inside Sandy sperm, which 309 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: could now be tested for DNA and could potentially solve 310 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: the question of who was last with Sandy. But most importantly, 311 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: there was this strange location of the gunshot wound. Why 312 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: would Sandy, who was left handed, reach across her body 313 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: to shoot herself in the right side. So we get 314 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: into the trajectory part, and I told him that I 315 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: didn't understand how one could shoot themselves in the manner 316 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: that you're saying, and if she had in fact committed suicide, 317 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: and he goes, she was shot in the stomach, I'm 318 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 1: like no. Ever since I met Kim, she has described 319 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: the bullet as having penetrated Sandy's right side and exited 320 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: through the left side of her back. Kim is not wrong, 321 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: But when you look at the evidence a little more closely, 322 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: a more nuanced picture emerges. According to the autopsy report, 323 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: the entrance wound was in Sandy's abdomen, less than three 324 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: inches to the right of her midline, not in her 325 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: flank as Kim had described it. It's a slight difference, 326 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: but an important distinction when it comes to visualizing how 327 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: someone would inflict such an injury. To be told that 328 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: she was mistaken about the location of the entrance wound, 329 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: even by a small distance, was genuinely confusing for Kim. 330 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: And she and I said, but she couldn't have. Possibly, 331 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: she couldn't have. She couldn't be contortionist and do this. 332 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: And He's like, Kim, she took the gun. She braced 333 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: it on the steering wheel, and she used her thumbs, 334 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: and she put it to her stomach because it was 335 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: a direct shot to the stomach. It went through right here, 336 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: and it came right out the back behind her, her back. 337 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: The trajectory of the bullet had never been explained to 338 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Kim in this way. Instead of traveling from right to left, 339 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: Bernie showed Kim that the path of the bullet really 340 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: moved from from to back. There was a deviation of 341 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: about five inches, but that could be accounted for by 342 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: the angle of Sandy's body or the angle of the gun, 343 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: or a combination of the two. And he says, but 344 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: there was gunpowder on the steering wheel. And I'm like what. 345 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: And it was kind of like this thing came at 346 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: me where all of a sudden things were becoming clear, 347 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: and I'm like, what do you mean? There was gunpowder 348 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: on the steering wheel. And he goes, yes, there was 349 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: spray of gunpowder on her hands, the gun on the 350 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: steering wheel and forward, and I'm like, oh god. Kim 351 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: had never heard about gunpowder being on the steering wheel 352 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: of Sandy's car. The detail wasn't in the police report, 353 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: and no one had ever mentioned it to her before, 354 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: but now she imagined it. What he said was that's 355 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 1: how it got in her hands, that everything goes backwards, 356 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: that the gunpowder sprays back. That's what they said. And 357 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: I don't know in anything about it. But as he's 358 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: telling me this, my whole body's going, oh God, this 359 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: is you know. It was the first time I was 360 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: able to see that it's a possibility. And I just 361 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: was like, I started crying. And we only had masks on, 362 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: so all I could see was his eyes, and his 363 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: eyes were watering up too. At that moment, Kim's certainty 364 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: in the facts that she had been repeating for so 365 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: many years started to break apart. It was a disorienting 366 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: and destabilizing feeling. She was able to glimpse an alternative 367 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: version of events for Sandy's death that made just as 368 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: much sense as the one she had believed for so long. 369 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: After Kim and her sister left the meeting. They drove 370 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: immediately to the pole yard where Sandy had died. They 371 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: sat in the car, their heads buzzed with the information 372 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: that just received, and it was here that Kim's sister 373 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: began talking. We went straight from there to Pepco utility 374 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: yard to just kind of like debrief and chill and look, 375 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: and she just got very sad. She's like, I wish 376 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: that I just knew. I wish that I could have 377 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: just told her that this too shall pass and this 378 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be. But I know exactly what she 379 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: was going through if she was sitting in that car 380 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: by herself. Kim's sister confided that she had been in 381 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: Sandy's position before. She had too, had thoughts of suicide 382 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: a number of times during her life. Kim later described 383 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 1: this moment to me as one of the most vulnerable 384 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: she'd ever shared with her sister. Kim listened to her 385 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: sister talk while looking out at the pole yard. She'd 386 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: visited the location nearly a dozen times as part of 387 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: her investigation into Sandy's death, and she'd pictured all the 388 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: ways Sandy could have at the hands of another. Now 389 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: she saw the scene through her sister's eyes. Just like Kim, 390 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: I can tell you that the desire to commit suicide 391 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: is really hard and it's not a pleasant place to be, 392 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: and I know exactly what she was tormented with at 393 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: that moment. A brand new historical true crime podcast. The 394 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 1: year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York. The first 395 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: murder trial in the American judicial system as trial for 396 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers Alexander Hamilton 397 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: and Aaron Burr on the case, this is probably the 398 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: most famous trial you've never heard of. When you lay 399 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll think 400 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need anything simplified, 401 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: mister Hamilton. Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton. 402 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: She's so sad that it doesn't suit you. Written and 403 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: created by me Alison black Listened to Erase the murder 404 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: of Elma San's She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl 405 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: until she met that man. Right there on the iHeartRadio app, 406 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When 407 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: Tracy were kel Burns was two years old, her baby 408 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: brother died I was told that Matthew died in an 409 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: accident and no one really talked about it. Her parents 410 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: told police she had killed him. Medical records faid that 411 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: I killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me 412 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the truth. 413 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: An incredible story of a toddler who was framed for 414 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: murder and how she grew into an adult determined to 415 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted 416 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 1: some cold cases, this was the coldest, This was frigid. 417 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: But how does a two year old get blamed for murder? 418 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: She said? We wanted a new life. You just don't 419 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. 420 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 421 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. This Christmas, what if 422 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: gift giving looked different? What if your gifts could make 423 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: a life changing, long lasting, joyful impact on your loved 424 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: ones and for others. 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Watch Queens of Ancient 443 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: digit now on Curiosity Stream with monthly, annual, and bundled plans. 444 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: Find the one that works us for you at CuriosityStream 445 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: dot com. I was in Spain on vacation when all 446 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: of this was happening, and my phone lit up with 447 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: a text from Kim. She had gone right from the 448 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: poliard to the airport, and as she waited for her 449 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: flight back to Texas, she gulped down a glass of 450 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: wine and she texted me this line quote, I think 451 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: she committed suicide. When I read this, I was stunned. 452 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: I had told Kim a lot of information over the 453 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: last few months that complicated the story she believed about 454 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: Sandy's death. She took it all in stride, but her 455 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: confidence in her stance remained strong. Now she had completely 456 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: reversed her position, abandoning a belief that had driven her 457 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: for so long. This belief, it was a part of Kim. 458 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: It dictated how she spent her free time. It reached 459 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: into her professional life and informed how she identified with 460 00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: her clients. It molded her personality. How could a single 461 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: meeting change her mind? What could Bernie have said or 462 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: done to persuade her? I mean, look, think about you 463 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: know yourself and what you believe about this story, right 464 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: or like? What would it take to convince you of 465 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: a different narrative, and I think when you think about 466 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: it that way, you realize that, you know, getting entrenched 467 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: in the system of beliefs is actually shockingly easy, Like 468 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: that's what we do as human beings. Steven Slowman is 469 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: a professor of cognitive, linguistic, and psychological sciences at Brown University. 470 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: He studies how people think. How do you actually change minds? 471 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: The traditional way to think about it is that if 472 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: you just see enough evidence, then finally you'll change your mind. 473 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: I think it's very clear that's false. In fact, in 474 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: the literature, there are people who propose what are called 475 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: backfire effects. You take people who feel strongly about an issue, 476 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: and you show them evidence that's inconsistent with their view, 477 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: and in some conditions, people come to feel even more 478 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: strongly the way they felt before, despite the evidence. If 479 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: you bombard someone with information that challenges their beliefs, they're 480 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: likely to double down on their original stance. But listen 481 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: to them, really listen, and the opposite might happen. Research 482 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: shows that people who are genuinely listened to feel safer 483 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: in the conversation and experience less anxiety. As a result, 484 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: they're less defensive and better at seeing both sides of 485 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: an argument and they walk away from the conversation with 486 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: a more nuanced perspective. But if we're talking about how 487 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: to approach an individual to change their well, the first 488 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: thing you do is you acknowledge where that person's coming from. Right. 489 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: You don't have to agree with it, but you have 490 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: to give the person the sense that you understand them 491 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: and you understand their values. Right, if you can acknowledge 492 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: their most sacred values first, that's a really good entry way. 493 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Then the person feels respected and feels like they're talking 494 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: to someone who understands them. So that's step one. Hearing this, 495 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: it sounded almost exactly like what Bernie did. Kim told 496 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: me how he acknowledge that PG County police had mistreated 497 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: Sandy and how wrong it was. He didn't try to 498 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: minimize it or shrug it off, as every other police 499 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: officer had in the years. Kim had been asking questions. 500 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: Step two is not to enforce your own view on 501 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: the person. What you have to do is sort of elicit. 502 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: You have to be kind of platonic about it. That is, 503 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: you have to elicit that person's perspective and then start 504 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: asking them questions. So that they can see themselves where 505 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: the inconsistencies are in their story, and then if you 506 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: can fill them in, you might very slowly, gradually be 507 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: able to sort of turn the corner and allow them 508 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: to integrate the information with a different narrative, a new narrative. 509 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: I thought of Sandy's gunshot wound. Kim had walked into 510 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: the meeting believing one thing about its trajectory and was 511 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 1: shown gently that she was mistaken. I wondered if that 512 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: moment opened the door to her being able to see 513 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: other possibilities. Narratives, you know, have teeth that sink into 514 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: all aspects of our lives, especially when they concern really 515 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: important things like the death of a child. You have 516 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: all of this knowledge that's kind of sitting together in 517 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: this tight little story, and you have to loosen up 518 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: the whole thing, and then when it falls apart, it 519 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: falls apart as a whole and reshapes as a whole. 520 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: What Kim experienced in that meeting with Bernie may best 521 00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: be described as an epiphany. And I don't think it 522 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: was the individual revelation of gunpowder on the steering wheel 523 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: that triggered this change. I think it has a lot 524 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: more to do with how she was treated during the 525 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: meeting and what Bernie was able to offer her recognition 526 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: acknowledgment a sympathetic ear I was heard, and I was 527 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: disarmed with his empathy and his compassion. I just I mean, 528 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: I just was blown away. And then I don't know, 529 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, Maybe it was his demeanor and the 530 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: way he was presenting it opposed to how it was 531 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 1: presented in the past. Kim's previous experience with Prince George's 532 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: County police was dotted with contentious interactions, instances where she 533 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: was brushed off or treated as a nuisance. All the 534 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: things she'd found suspicious Sandy's address books, the ride alongs, 535 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: her close connections to local police officers were dismissed as insignificant, 536 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: and Kim was made to feel as if she was 537 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: losing it seeing things that weren't there. For the first time, 538 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: a PG County police officer acknowledged that she was justified 539 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: in her suspicions. Sandy's involvement with police was relevant, It 540 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: did matter, and Bernie went so far as to say 541 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: that it may have contributed to Sandy's decision to take 542 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: her own life. So I was focused on these eyes, 543 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: and his eyes were just kind and he carried and 544 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: it was like he could see the pain and he 545 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: could even I mean he felt the pain. He wasn't 546 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: in tears, but he just had those eyes and they 547 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: were so compassionate that it was there was a connection 548 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 1: of you really got to get it was like, you 549 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: really have to believe me. It's like he was almost 550 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: begging me, you know, almost get your stuff out of 551 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: this misery that you're in, because it's just the truth. 552 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 1: When Kim texted me, quote, I think she committed suicide, 553 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 1: it was a bold statement, and in our following conversation 554 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: she sounded confident that she now knew the truth, but 555 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: letting go of a core belief after all those years. 556 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: It's not a linear process. There were days, minutes, hours 557 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: where her suspicions resurfaced and her doubts rushed back in, 558 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,280 Speaker 1: only to later subside, like a pendulum swinging back and forth. 559 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: She texted me about the experience, quote, I find myself 560 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,359 Speaker 1: shifting often from knowing she was killed and grieving how 561 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: much she was really hurting. Kim was undergoing the painstaking 562 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: process of rebuilding her understanding of Sandy's death after her 563 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: tightly wound belief had started to unravel. I'm still struggling 564 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: with the transition of changing the words from killed two 565 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: took her life or whatever that's different, because it does. 566 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: I still have that resistance in my head to it. 567 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 1: Don't want to believe that that's the truth. But I 568 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: do know that what she was facing was really horrible. 569 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: How do you feel about like letting some of that 570 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: stuff go? I feel like I let her down, but 571 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: I feel like a fool that I still have questions. 572 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,879 Speaker 1: I feel like I wasted your time, and I feel 573 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: like I wasted the beals time because it just felt 574 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: like a why did you make this into something that 575 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't? I don't know. That's what I've been struggling with. 576 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 1: After Kim flew home to Texas, she knew she had 577 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: to tell the rest of the bills what she now 578 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: believed about Sandy's death, but she didn't want to do 579 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: it over the phone. She couldn't bear the thought of 580 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: having four individual conversations where she tried to put into 581 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 1: words what had happened during her meeting with Bernie, and 582 00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: so she packed her bags once again and booked a 583 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: flight to Maine before leaving, she penned an email to 584 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: Bernie to say thank you. He wrote back right away, 585 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 1: here's Kim reading some of his email. And as I 586 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,240 Speaker 1: said before, I'm very sorry about what happened to Sandy. 587 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: She was put through far too much by people who 588 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: should have known better and whom she trusted and looked 589 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: up to. It is shameful and has caused a young 590 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,879 Speaker 1: lady with a promising future to die at a very 591 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: young age. I hope that answered your question satisfactory, and 592 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: please don't hesitate to let me know if you have 593 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,759 Speaker 1: any other questions. Have a safe trip. What happened on 594 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,399 Speaker 1: that trip is on our next and final episode. We've 595 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: come a long way with us you, Doug and Doug, 596 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: and so in my mind, I think we've come to 597 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: the end of the row when the loser grow. What 598 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 1: Happened to Sandy Beal is hosted by Me Melissa Jelson. 599 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: It's written and produced by me and Katrina Norvel. The 600 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 1: podcast is edited by Abu Safar, sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. 601 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: Jason English is our executive producer. Research and production assistants 602 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: by Marissa Brown. To find out more about my investigation, 603 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter. At Quasamado. That's qu as I 604 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: am a d o. Thanks so much for listening. A 605 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: brand new historical true crime podcast, When you lay suffering 606 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: a sudden brutal death, starring Alison william I hope you'll 607 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: think of me. Erased the Murder of Elma Sans. She 608 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl until she met that 609 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: man right there. Written and created by me, Alison Flack. 610 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: Is it possible? So we're standing by for your answer. 611 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: Erased the Murder of Elma Sans on the iHeartRadio app, 612 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When 613 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: Trace who were killed, Burns was two years old, her 614 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: baby brother died. I was told that Matthew died in 615 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: an accident. Her parents told police she had killed him. 616 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for Burden of Guilt, the 617 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: new podcast that tells the truth an incredible story of 618 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,320 Speaker 1: a toddler who was framed for murder. 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