WEBVTT - Ep. 5: Understanding Our Irrational Connection to Dogs 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:06.880 Yeah, alright, River, we're gonna we're gonna turn these dogs 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.760 out by this pond. It's been raining, but I figured 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:12.880 by now the coons have had a little time to stir. 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:18.239 Let's just get him, all right, and you ready, Scooter, 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:23.720 You're ready for m ah, You're ready. We'll get him. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:29.080 On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, we're going deep, 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:34.159 deep into human history to explore the impact of man's 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:39.479 best friend, the dog, on us. I'll interview some lads 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.480 that use their canines for some unique tasks, and I'll 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:48.480 interview anthropologists David ian Howe, who specializes in the dog 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:53.559 human relationship, and we're searching for answers because there are 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.280 some new ideologies trying to change the rules on how 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.760 humans use dogs and modern times. Then we'll go into 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:06.360 the night woods and listen to my dogs work as 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:11.280 we reflect on this question. Is partnering with dogs an 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.080 essential definer of our humanity? Do you ever think that 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:20.080 this is ridiculous and kind of irrational? How much how 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.920 much we love our dogs? Of course, that's rational, totally 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.560 what you think. So also convinced. You know, most people 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:40.800 are home watching Netflix right now. My name is Clay 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.320 Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:49.560 explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.440 and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived 0:01:53.520 --> 0:02:06.120 their lives close to the land. I like dogs, always have, 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:08.800 but not in the typical way you would expect a 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.360 person in to like a dog. I don't necessarily like 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.839 to pet dogs, and I don't think I utilize them 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:19.280 as emotional companions. But my connection to dogs is a 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.600 layer deeper. And I don't say that in an elitist 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.600 kind of way. I quite literally mean it's a layer 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:29.760 beyond the surface, because it doesn't make sense. I've always 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.720 felt my love for dogs was irrational and couldn't be explained. 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.680 You might have those same feelings echoing inside of you. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:49.880 Many people do. My grandfather, Lewin Nukeam, was a bird 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:52.679 dog trainer to the core. He grew up in an 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:55.880 era when quail and the south were thriving. Every other 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.679 farmhouse you drove past might have a pair of liver 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.120 spotted pointers or an English center behind the house. He 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.840 understood dogs and how to partner with him, but what 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.000 was notable to me was the place of regard the 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.080 bird dogs held in his internal hierarchy of important things. 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.440 They were danging there at the top. If you look 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.080 at this from a completely rational perspective, you'd assume the 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.639 dogs must have provided some essential component of survival. But 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.520 he and my grandmother didn't live off qail meat without trying. 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.519 He built in me a love for country stores. High 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.000 is made from scratch at country diners, biscuits and gravy, 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:40.240 and homegrown sweet corn. But the most dominant feature that 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.240 he instilled in me, aside from components of my internal 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:49.680 character and faith, was his irrational, high ranking platform that 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:54.080 he placed his dogs on. There's something deeper to be 0:03:54.160 --> 0:04:05.600 explored here. My friend Damon bun Gard has a unique 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.320 relationship with his dog, and together they accomplish a unique job. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.559 Aside from the fact that I think Damon and his dog, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.560 Yeager look like each other, both handsome fellows. Of course, 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:23.760 Damon has dedicated a good chunk of his life to 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:33.280 his dog, and I want to explore their partnership. Damon, 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:36.400 I've known you for a while and you are definitely 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.080 someone that has an irrational connection to your dog. I'm 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.120 confident of that after I've seen you interact with your dogs. 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.240 Tell me what kind of dogs that you have and 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.400 what you do with them. So I have what's called 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.040 a tackle, which is a dog that most people see 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:55.599 and just say what kind of mixes that? It's a 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.320 working wire haired docks And a lot of people are like, oh, 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.440 it's like a Schnauser, you know, of what kind of 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.440 terrier mixes that? And they're the wire hair version of 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.839 a docks And it's generally considered the wire hairs are 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.400 the most hunting and working oriented, probably from some old 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.240 terrier genetics that helped give them the wire coat. Tackles 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.279 are also very much you know, they're they're bred to 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.320 the international standard of the f CI one eight. I 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:23.640 believe it is standard for a working dog and the 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.760 description is working dog above and below ground. Most people 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.640 here in the United States don't think of a docks 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:33.400 And as a working dog, but that's what they were 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.840 bred to do in Europe. And the fact that the 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.920 breed standard is all around chest circumference, which is based 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.120 on animal holes, the size of a badger hole, the 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.640 size of a foxhole, the size of a rabbit hole. 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:51.080 They're tenacious hunters, they're very persistent dogs. They're very independent dogs. 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.760 In Europe, a lot of places require a dog for 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:59.479 big game recovery by law. So teckle yeager. He's registered 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:01.520 with the Dot your Tuckle Club and he's one of 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.359 the few true tackles in North America. So tell me 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.840 specifically what you do with him. So we track and 0:06:07.920 --> 0:06:11.640 find wounded and lost big game for hunters, whether it's 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:14.440 a deer or other big game species, somebody shoots it, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.400 loses it, can't find it, they track it for a while, 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.000 or there's no sign to track on, they call us. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.280 We go out and on lead here in Tennessee when 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.440 most states and we find that animal. How often are 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.320 you successful at finding wounded game? And so these are 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.960 animals that the hunter has tried to find the animal 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.520 and has been unsuccessful. So they're calling you with the 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.440 hard ones, just with just an average, how how many 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:41.840 do you think you recover? I don't really get into 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.480 success rates, but on general, for the ones we do 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.120 take fifty to six. I say you leave with a 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.120 d percent confidence and knowing if it's alive or dead. 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.160 I am full faith that if it's dead, yeagger will 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.800 find it. Damon, is I hear you describe these dogs? 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.400 It's clear that the animal has been selectively bred for 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.960 a very long period of time to partner with humans 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:09.600 to complete a task that a human is incapable of 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.320 completing on their own, which is really the story of 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.320 the dogs. They're doing work for us. I want you 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:19.080 to describe for me your personal connection to this dog, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.160 because I know these dogs live in your house. These 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:25.760 dogs are like they're important to you. Just talk to 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:28.560 me about your personal connection to your dog. A lot 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:33.680 of people approach working dogs and that's not being family members. 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.840 That's very much not Yeager's life. He's on the couch, 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:38.720 he's in the bed often. You know, when we travel, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.320 do you ever have been around docksins? And just in general, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.080 they're full of personality. People talk about personality and dogs 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.560 and that's a that's a human thing. We're projecting care 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.160 what you want. They have an attitude, they have a 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.120 lot of attitude. They're a little dogging with a lot 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:58.120 of attitude. So you you see that with him working 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.960 and he's a great tracking dog. He's also really good 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.240 at flushing birth. So he just loves to hunt. So 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.120 I love to hunt. So that's obviously a bond that 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:11.480 we share when when we're working together. Tracking is a 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.920 team effort. There are times where I mean, he just 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.840 blows my mind and what what he finds or how 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.640 he knows to go where he knows to go, I 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:23.160 would never know without his help. There's other times where 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.720 he needs my help. Damon. I know you know some 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.040 stuff about dog domestication, but let's just erase that, erase 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.280 that knowledge. Would you be surprised if you learned that 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.319 humans and dogs had been together for such a long 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:43.559 period of time that they had developed dependence upon one another? 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.560 And I think it's interesting to think too, that there 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:51.400 was a time when that connection was essential to human survival. 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.880 Today it's it's not quite that essential for most people. 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.160 You know, if you think about I mean, you're you 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:02.400 don't have this relationship with cattle like we eat cattle. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.920 You don't have this relationship with chickens or with lizards, 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.800 or it's like this is a really special bond that 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:15.160 humans have with this one species. So I guess I 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:16.880 guess it was more of a statement than the question. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:20.000 But I guess my question is would that surprise you? 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.640 If you could remove yourself, you'd be like, no, this 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.760 dog and me were just made for each other because 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.680 I will say, you kind of look like your dog, 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:31.840 and he's a handsome dog. He's a handsome dog. I mean, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:37.080 it's all in the beard. Yes, certainly, certainly as a 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:40.800 student of biology, and you can get in symbiotic relationships 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:46.479 and have we over time selectively even as humans evolved 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.679 and have has DNA in us that favors to prinionship 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.360 of dogs become more prevalent because they helped us get 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.480 more food and therefore that that gene bread more you 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.640 know you can get. You can get deep right into 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:07.640 into theory. It's where we're going on this podcast. David 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:11.840 Howe is an anthropologist who studies the dog human relationship. 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.640 I'm slightly nervous talking with him because I fear that 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.160 he might not confirm my bias. I hope he tells 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.600 me that my love of hunting dogs is deeply human 0:10:21.960 --> 0:10:25.240 and highly relevant to modern society, and that his words 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.800 feed the narrative that's been crafted inside of me. But 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.760 I need to get to the bottom of this. Hunting 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:35.960 with dogs has become an issue of controversy in modern times, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:43.800 and I'm interested to see what he has to say. So, David, 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.319 I am trying to understand and resolve a question that 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.360 I've had for a long time, and that is I'm 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:58.520 trying to understand my irrational connection to dogs and the 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:03.440 irrational connection of dogs that I see all throughout society, 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:08.160 from pet owners to working dogs to hunting dogs. And 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:12.000 it's always struck me as just odd how much we 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.280 like our dogs. And then now that I'm beginning to 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:19.120 learn more about it, searching a little bit deeper, I'm 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:22.240 trying to understand it. Why do we love dogs so much? 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.040 I wish I had like a one word answer for it, 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.200 other than that we just love them. But dogs have 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:31.800 been around for at least twenty thousand years or so, 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.760 probably further than that, so they've just kind of co 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:37.959 adapted with human life for the longest time. And why 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.840 they're around. So let's go all the way back to 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:46.359 the beginning. When do we believe that dogs were first domesticated? 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:51.079 So this gets pushed back depending on which paper comes 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.480 out or like, you know, what school of thought you're with, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.840 but the general consensus currently is twenty thousand years. Is 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:02.120 like the genetic signatures for a dog. Here, the gene 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.839 signature is about what you think it might be. It's 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.520 a group of genes or a single gene that displays 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.560 a unique characteristic only for that species. So if we 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.360 compare that to modern you know, dog genomes and how 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.200 other DNA looks, you can see that these remains that 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.520 are found twenty thousand years ago are dogs, but there 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.240 could be stuff before that that, you know, is the 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.280 in between a wolf and a dog kind of thing, 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.680 because you can't just turn a wolf into a dog overnight, right, right, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:38.040 So where is the oldest known site where we believe 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.760 that dogs were with humans and these dogs were domesticated 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:44.840 That It's hard to say because there's just so many 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.080 dog remains that get found and wolf remains that it's 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.520 you can't really say, Okay, is this a wolf or 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:52.680 as a dog? If you find a wolf skull in 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.680 a cave with human occupation, it could be a dog. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.520 At that point. The best indicator that I go with 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.720 is certainly, by a fourteen thousand years we see a 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.720 like human and dog like burial, like where they're buried together. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:09.360 So at that point we can say, even if it 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.600 was just a wolf like that relationship had formed. What 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:17.200 part of the world did is that particular fourteen thousand 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:21.040 year old site in Yeah, that is in bond Overcastle, Germany. 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.560 That was the first dog human burials, the oldest known 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.079 dog human burials that we see. Correct, That one is 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.400 kind of contested because it could be a wolf. Still 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.680 it's just a pup, so it's hard to tell. But 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.200 either way, it's a canied burial with a human. But 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.280 then in ten thousand years ago there's one in Israel. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:41.200 It's up by the Sea of Galilee and it's a 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.000 Natufian site, so the first people to start, you know, 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.640 farming and doing agriculture. And there's a middle aged woman 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.280 buried with a puppy and her hands like resting on 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:55.440 the puppy. So that's that's definitive to understand dogs like 0:13:55.600 --> 0:14:00.000 so in one we just have dogs of all sizes, shape, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.160 some colors that do all kinds of stuff, all dogs 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:10.440 domesticated from the one wild canon that we can trace 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:15.199 it back to, which is the wolf. Is that correct? Yeah, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.000 it depends on your school of thought. We find new 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:20.280 stuff all the time and keep dating it and keep 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.160 checking the DNA, and it's a it's a wacky picture. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.360 Some people think it is a gray wolf that we 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.520 know today that they have descended from or it's an 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.560 extinct group of wolves that is no longer around, and 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:38.840 that dogs are that like ecological adaptation of those wolves 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.280 living with humans and they just kind of died out. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.920 But the main thing is that it did come from 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:51.800 a wolf creature. The genesis of the hundreds of dog 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.000 breeds we have today came from the Victorian era in 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:58.960 Britain when dog shows became popular. The United Kennel Club 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.760 or the UK Seeker we recognizes over three hundred different 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.360 breeds of dogs. What brings us all together is understanding 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.600 that these aren't different species, they are all the same species. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:15.080 The imprint of artificial or human influence selection is notable. 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.920 It's hard to fathom that the genetic coating of a 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.840 single species that looks very much the same wolves has 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.160 such genetic scripting that in its genes you could get 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:32.560 a pug and a golden Retriever out of the same stuff. Amazing. Hey, 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.560 did you know that originally all gray wolves were gray? 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.840 A black wolf is the influence of domestic dogs hybridizing 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:46.840 back into wolf populations. Naturally, there were only gray wolves. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.280 Put that in your pipe and smoking. So to understand 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:56.000 our connection to dogs, I think we gotta go way back, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.840 way back and understand how dogs were domesticated. I know 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:08.160 there's multiple ideas, multiple theories. In the beauty of anthropology. 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.080 When we're so certain about so many things, is that 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.280 there's some stuff that's so deep in history that we 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:19.960 are uncertain. I love that. But there are definitely some 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.840 some theories of dog domestication, and you don't have to 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:28.040 think too hard to perceive how it might have happened. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.680 But can you describe for me your number one theory, 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.640 the theory that you like the best of how dogs 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.240 originally became domesticated. Yeah, I can definitely do that. It's 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.320 kind of involves two theories, but I can kind of 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.760 merge it into one. Uh. And that is the idea 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.480 that wolves and humans are like kind of similar animals, 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.120 not in the sense that you know, wolves aren't primates, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.320 but that wolves and humans have a similar social structure. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.800 We both cooperatively hunt, we talked to each other, and 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:03.600 we like work together to achieved goals. So humans entering Eurasia, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.560 out of Africa or wherever we're seeing wolves, you know, 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:09.960 behave the way that they do, and we probably took 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.040 note of that and learned, Okay, this is how you 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.320 efficiently hunt bison. This is how you efficiently hunt you know, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.280 red deer or whatever, or reindeer is what we both 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.560 ate a lot of and noticed how that worked. And 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.919 it's pretty metal, is the way I would describe it. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.720 In the beginning of that like relationship forming humans. Let's 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:28.960 say live in an open air camp like in the 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.119 Czech Republic somewhere, and maybe in a man with hot structure, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.439 and they're cooking food out in the open. Wolves are 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.840 going to smell that, and they're gonna be like, okay, well, 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:41.479 why would I bother hunting if I can just go 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.920 sneak up on this camp at night and steal their food. 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.480 So if we look at dogs today, we know they 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.160 just there's junkyard dogs, there's dump dogs. They just scavenge food. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.159 And pet dogs do it too, But people would have 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.480 noticed that those dogs were doing that, or wolves, I 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:58.800 should say, and then take a note of it. So 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.879 eventually they could have been them more or you know, 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.800 after generations of that happening, they could be like, Okay, 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.320 these ones aren't gonna hurt us, They're just hungry, and 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:11.440 that relationship starts forming that way. So what happened they 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:15.840 over time, there was benefit to the wolves that weren't 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.320 as afraid of humans, because there would have been some 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.520 diversity in a wolf pack. I mean, just like there's 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:25.880 diversity in all the same species, there's gonna be animals 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.280 that are more leary and others that aren't. So perhaps 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.120 some of these wolves started gaining biological advantage by being 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.280 less weary of humans because they're eating out of their camp. 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:39.160 And then the humans started to take note of this, 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.320 and like they just kind of started getting closer and closer. 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.040 And then do you think a human caught a wolf pup? 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.640 Do you think they tamed a grown one? I mean, 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:53.720 like I know, there's probably there's multiple domestication acts happening 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.320 all across the planet, probably at the same time. I mean, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:19:02.120 it wasn't just one initial act of domestication, am I right? Sure? Yeah, 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:04.679 And that that's kind of where it turns into the 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.280 different theories. So the base one is that for me, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.000 like that clearly we see it happened now, definitely happened then. 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:14.720 But then from there it determines like did people take 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.800 active note and then kill the aggressive wolves and say, 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.320 like just leave the ones that are nice? Did they 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.919 then start adopting their pups and raising them because they 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.000 were like, oh what if we just raised it from 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.080 a puppy all day, It's whole life. Um. And then 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.439 there's the other one where this was happening. And then 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.879 while wolves and humans were hunting, they would have come 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.160 into contact with each other and the same thing kind 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.879 of happened. So instead of scavenging at their camp, humans 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.679 are like beating wolves to their kill. Are waiting for 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:42.879 wolves to kill something, and then they kill the aggressive 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:45.680 ones and all other ones go away. Hey, I got 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:48.800 a story to tell you, David. It's entirely possible for 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:53.439 a hunter gatherer to catch a canine wild pup. I 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.480 know this because I've done it. One of my favorite 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:00.520 stories my boys were young, they were like four and 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.560 six years old. We were out scouting for deer here 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:08.480 in Arkansas, and I walked out in the woods on 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.360 just a little jaunt. I left him kind of by 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:13.000 the four wheeler, and I said, hey, I'll be back 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:16.080 in five minutes. I went for a little walk and 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.880 jumped up. I don't know what they were doing, but 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:23.360 it was three coyote pups that looked like nine week 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:27.520 old puppies, you know, they probably weighed eight or nine 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.840 pounds maybe, and they took off running. Well, I just 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:37.479 by instinct just started chasing them. I ended up catching 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.520 one of those suckers. To make a long story short, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:43.720 I was chasing him, and uh, you know, they just 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.119 split off one by one. I was chasing three, and 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:48.240 then one would split off, and then I was chasing two, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:50.240 and then one split off, and then I picked one 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.840 to keep chasing. And I was running and I remember 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:57.040 I started running down this drainage. This Kyle was hopping 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.280 from rock to rock, and I fell man my and 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.520 got in front of my feet and I took a 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.480 spill harder than I've ever taken a spill. As I'm falling, 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:08.919 I'm trying to figure out what bone I'm gonna break. 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.600 I hit the ground. But what I was most disappointed 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:16.200 about was I knew that Kyle was getting away from me. Well, 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:18.800 when I hit the ground and realized I wasn't hurt, 0:21:18.840 --> 0:21:22.320 I lifted up my head and that Kyle Pup had 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.280 laid up in a ball about four ft in front 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.840 of me. I guess he saw me like coming over 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.679 him and his instinct was to fall up. Well, he 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.679 sees me raise up my head and look at him, 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:35.919 and he takes off running again. So I jump up 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.560 and take off running, and he darts in a hole 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:41.960 and I flip over this rock on top of the hole, 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.919 and he's bawled up right there, and I just reached 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.480 out and grab him by the nape of the neck 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.960 and picked him up, took him home. We tried to 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.119 tame him. He kept biting me. I kept him for 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:55.440 about four weeks and never could tame him. But if 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.520 I had really wanted to tame him, I could have. 0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:59.760 I was just afraid he was gonna hurt one of 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.160 my is, so I turned the sucker loose. I hope 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:07.800 this story somehow aide you in your studies of dogs 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.399 and humans. For sure it does, because one of my 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:14.040 like weirdest or not weirdest, I would say, but one 0:22:14.040 --> 0:22:17.160 of the biggest hangups I had with the like it's 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:20.639 called the Pinocchio hypothesis, is adopted because you're trying to 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.640 make it into a real boy or real wolf or whatever, 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.040 real dog. I guess I should say. I always wondered 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:28.919 do people just stick their hands in wolf dens and 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.880 risk getting their fingers bit off? Or how does that work. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.119 So there's a there's a theory of domestication called the 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.560 Pinocchio theory. Yeah, so either the mother died and they 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:41.240 adopt the pups or they just intentionally said, I'm gonna 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:43.480 make a dog today and like when you know, we're 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:45.880 gonna keep it as a pet kind of thing. Yeah, 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.800 now that I know this theory, I'm a firm believer 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:54.320 in it. Serious, I think. I mean, because people that 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.439 are on the landscape, a lot that are in the woods, 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:00.640 a lot which obviously hunter gathers. I mean, over sure, 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:05.240 anywhere else to go do you encounter dens and groundborough 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:09.200 Den's like a wolf would have, are very visible as 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.480 opposed to other types of animals that would have kind 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:16.880 of vegetation nests as den's you know that are camouflage, 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.680 Like a hole in the ground is not camouflage, and 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:24.639 you know, so I can see and in in prehistoric 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:29.240 hunters also killed animals from their dens on purpose because 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:33.400 it was a good ambush spot. I bet somebody like 0:23:33.560 --> 0:23:36.560 saw a fresh wolf did went over there with their 0:23:36.640 --> 0:23:40.440 spear or their adleaddle or their rock or whatever they 0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:43.880 had killed a wolf. And then I was like, dang, 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.280 I hear some puffs whimper and reached in there and 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:48.719 pulled out a few bottom home, threw them to their 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.000 ten year old son and said, hey, let's feed that 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.520 thing tam it. We've just created a whole new theory. David, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.320 there you go that that's cool. I don't get to 0:23:57.400 --> 0:23:59.600 like work with modern hunters too often, so it's always 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:02.800 nice to hear of these stories. So the similarities between 0:24:03.200 --> 0:24:06.880 wolves and humans is fascinating. If a wolf that hunts 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:09.359 in the pack, he's got to be tuned into the 0:24:09.480 --> 0:24:15.439 nuance and obviously primarily nonverbal nuance of the pack numbers, 0:24:15.440 --> 0:24:20.320