Speaker 1: Yeah, alright, River, we're gonna we're gonna turn these dogs
Speaker 1: out by this pond. It's been raining, but I figured
Speaker 1: by now the coons have had a little time to stir.
Speaker 1: Let's just get him, all right, and you ready, Scooter,
Speaker 1: You're ready for m ah, You're ready. We'll get him.
Speaker 1: On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, we're going deep,
Speaker 1: deep into human history to explore the impact of man's
Speaker 1: best friend, the dog, on us. I'll interview some lads
Speaker 1: that use their canines for some unique tasks, and I'll
Speaker 1: interview anthropologists David ian Howe, who specializes in the dog
Speaker 1: human relationship, and we're searching for answers because there are
Speaker 1: some new ideologies trying to change the rules on how
Speaker 1: humans use dogs and modern times. Then we'll go into
Speaker 1: the night woods and listen to my dogs work as
Speaker 1: we reflect on this question. Is partnering with dogs an
Speaker 1: essential definer of our humanity? Do you ever think that
Speaker 1: this is ridiculous and kind of irrational? How much how
Speaker 1: much we love our dogs? Of course, that's rational, totally
Speaker 1: what you think. So also convinced. You know, most people
Speaker 1: are home watching Netflix right now. My name is Clay
Speaker 1: Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll
Speaker 1: explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places,
Speaker 1: and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived
Speaker 1: their lives close to the land. I like dogs, always have,
Speaker 1: but not in the typical way you would expect a
Speaker 1: person in to like a dog. I don't necessarily like
Speaker 1: to pet dogs, and I don't think I utilize them
Speaker 1: as emotional companions. But my connection to dogs is a
Speaker 1: layer deeper. And I don't say that in an elitist
Speaker 1: kind of way. I quite literally mean it's a layer
Speaker 1: beyond the surface, because it doesn't make sense. I've always
Speaker 1: felt my love for dogs was irrational and couldn't be explained.
Speaker 1: You might have those same feelings echoing inside of you.
Speaker 1: Many people do. My grandfather, Lewin Nukeam, was a bird
Speaker 1: dog trainer to the core. He grew up in an
Speaker 1: era when quail and the south were thriving. Every other
Speaker 1: farmhouse you drove past might have a pair of liver
Speaker 1: spotted pointers or an English center behind the house. He
Speaker 1: understood dogs and how to partner with him, but what
Speaker 1: was notable to me was the place of regard the
Speaker 1: bird dogs held in his internal hierarchy of important things.
Speaker 1: They were danging there at the top. If you look
Speaker 1: at this from a completely rational perspective, you'd assume the
Speaker 1: dogs must have provided some essential component of survival. But
Speaker 1: he and my grandmother didn't live off qail meat without trying.
Speaker 1: He built in me a love for country stores. High
Speaker 1: is made from scratch at country diners, biscuits and gravy,
Speaker 1: and homegrown sweet corn. But the most dominant feature that
Speaker 1: he instilled in me, aside from components of my internal
Speaker 1: character and faith, was his irrational, high ranking platform that
Speaker 1: he placed his dogs on. There's something deeper to be
Speaker 1: explored here. My friend Damon bun Gard has a unique
Speaker 1: relationship with his dog, and together they accomplish a unique job.
Speaker 1: Aside from the fact that I think Damon and his dog,
Speaker 1: Yeager look like each other, both handsome fellows. Of course,
Speaker 1: Damon has dedicated a good chunk of his life to
Speaker 1: his dog, and I want to explore their partnership. Damon,
Speaker 1: I've known you for a while and you are definitely
Speaker 1: someone that has an irrational connection to your dog. I'm
Speaker 1: confident of that after I've seen you interact with your dogs.
Speaker 1: Tell me what kind of dogs that you have and
Speaker 1: what you do with them. So I have what's called
Speaker 1: a tackle, which is a dog that most people see
Speaker 1: and just say what kind of mixes that? It's a
Speaker 1: working wire haired docks And a lot of people are like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like a Schnauser, you know, of what kind of
Speaker 1: terrier mixes that? And they're the wire hair version of
Speaker 1: a docks And it's generally considered the wire hairs are
Speaker 1: the most hunting and working oriented, probably from some old
Speaker 1: terrier genetics that helped give them the wire coat. Tackles
Speaker 1: are also very much you know, they're they're bred to
Speaker 1: the international standard of the f CI one eight. I
Speaker 1: believe it is standard for a working dog and the
Speaker 1: description is working dog above and below ground. Most people
Speaker 1: here in the United States don't think of a docks
Speaker 1: And as a working dog, but that's what they were
Speaker 1: bred to do in Europe. And the fact that the
Speaker 1: breed standard is all around chest circumference, which is based
Speaker 1: on animal holes, the size of a badger hole, the
Speaker 1: size of a foxhole, the size of a rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: They're tenacious hunters, they're very persistent dogs. They're very independent dogs.
Speaker 1: In Europe, a lot of places require a dog for
Speaker 1: big game recovery by law. So teckle yeager. He's registered
Speaker 1: with the Dot your Tuckle Club and he's one of
Speaker 1: the few true tackles in North America. So tell me
Speaker 1: specifically what you do with him. So we track and
Speaker 1: find wounded and lost big game for hunters, whether it's
Speaker 1: a deer or other big game species, somebody shoots it,
Speaker 1: loses it, can't find it, they track it for a while,
Speaker 1: or there's no sign to track on, they call us.
Speaker 1: We go out and on lead here in Tennessee when
Speaker 1: most states and we find that animal. How often are
Speaker 1: you successful at finding wounded game? And so these are
Speaker 1: animals that the hunter has tried to find the animal
Speaker 1: and has been unsuccessful. So they're calling you with the
Speaker 1: hard ones, just with just an average, how how many
Speaker 1: do you think you recover? I don't really get into
Speaker 1: success rates, but on general, for the ones we do
Speaker 1: take fifty to six. I say you leave with a
Speaker 1: d percent confidence and knowing if it's alive or dead.
Speaker 1: I am full faith that if it's dead, yeagger will
Speaker 1: find it. Damon, is I hear you describe these dogs?
Speaker 1: It's clear that the animal has been selectively bred for
Speaker 1: a very long period of time to partner with humans
Speaker 1: to complete a task that a human is incapable of
Speaker 1: completing on their own, which is really the story of
Speaker 1: the dogs. They're doing work for us. I want you
Speaker 1: to describe for me your personal connection to this dog,
Speaker 1: because I know these dogs live in your house. These
Speaker 1: dogs are like they're important to you. Just talk to
Speaker 1: me about your personal connection to your dog. A lot
Speaker 1: of people approach working dogs and that's not being family members.
Speaker 1: That's very much not Yeager's life. He's on the couch,
Speaker 1: he's in the bed often. You know, when we travel,
Speaker 1: do you ever have been around docksins? And just in general,
Speaker 1: they're full of personality. People talk about personality and dogs
Speaker 1: and that's a that's a human thing. We're projecting care
Speaker 1: what you want. They have an attitude, they have a
Speaker 1: lot of attitude. They're a little dogging with a lot
Speaker 1: of attitude. So you you see that with him working
Speaker 1: and he's a great tracking dog. He's also really good
Speaker 1: at flushing birth. So he just loves to hunt. So
Speaker 1: I love to hunt. So that's obviously a bond that
Speaker 1: we share when when we're working together. Tracking is a
Speaker 1: team effort. There are times where I mean, he just
Speaker 1: blows my mind and what what he finds or how
Speaker 1: he knows to go where he knows to go, I
Speaker 1: would never know without his help. There's other times where
Speaker 1: he needs my help. Damon. I know you know some
Speaker 1: stuff about dog domestication, but let's just erase that, erase
Speaker 1: that knowledge. Would you be surprised if you learned that
Speaker 1: humans and dogs had been together for such a long
Speaker 1: period of time that they had developed dependence upon one another?
Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting to think too, that there
Speaker 1: was a time when that connection was essential to human survival.
Speaker 1: Today it's it's not quite that essential for most people.
Speaker 1: You know, if you think about I mean, you're you
Speaker 1: don't have this relationship with cattle like we eat cattle.
Speaker 1: You don't have this relationship with chickens or with lizards,
Speaker 1: or it's like this is a really special bond that
Speaker 1: humans have with this one species. So I guess I
Speaker 1: guess it was more of a statement than the question.
Speaker 1: But I guess my question is would that surprise you?
Speaker 1: If you could remove yourself, you'd be like, no, this
Speaker 1: dog and me were just made for each other because
Speaker 1: I will say, you kind of look like your dog,
Speaker 1: and he's a handsome dog. He's a handsome dog. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's all in the beard. Yes, certainly, certainly as a
Speaker 1: student of biology, and you can get in symbiotic relationships
Speaker 1: and have we over time selectively even as humans evolved
Speaker 1: and have has DNA in us that favors to prinionship
Speaker 1: of dogs become more prevalent because they helped us get
Speaker 1: more food and therefore that that gene bread more you
Speaker 1: know you can get. You can get deep right into
Speaker 1: into theory. It's where we're going on this podcast. David
Speaker 1: Howe is an anthropologist who studies the dog human relationship.
Speaker 1: I'm slightly nervous talking with him because I fear that
Speaker 1: he might not confirm my bias. I hope he tells
Speaker 1: me that my love of hunting dogs is deeply human
Speaker 1: and highly relevant to modern society, and that his words
Speaker 1: feed the narrative that's been crafted inside of me. But
Speaker 1: I need to get to the bottom of this. Hunting
Speaker 1: with dogs has become an issue of controversy in modern times,
Speaker 1: and I'm interested to see what he has to say. So, David,
Speaker 1: I am trying to understand and resolve a question that
Speaker 1: I've had for a long time, and that is I'm
Speaker 1: trying to understand my irrational connection to dogs and the
Speaker 1: irrational connection of dogs that I see all throughout society,
Speaker 1: from pet owners to working dogs to hunting dogs. And
Speaker 1: it's always struck me as just odd how much we
Speaker 1: like our dogs. And then now that I'm beginning to
Speaker 1: learn more about it, searching a little bit deeper, I'm
Speaker 1: trying to understand it. Why do we love dogs so much?
Speaker 1: I wish I had like a one word answer for it,
Speaker 1: other than that we just love them. But dogs have
Speaker 1: been around for at least twenty thousand years or so,
Speaker 1: probably further than that, so they've just kind of co
Speaker 1: adapted with human life for the longest time. And why
Speaker 1: they're around. So let's go all the way back to
Speaker 1: the beginning. When do we believe that dogs were first domesticated?
Speaker 1: So this gets pushed back depending on which paper comes
Speaker 1: out or like, you know, what school of thought you're with,
Speaker 1: but the general consensus currently is twenty thousand years. Is
Speaker 1: like the genetic signatures for a dog. Here, the gene
Speaker 1: signature is about what you think it might be. It's
Speaker 1: a group of genes or a single gene that displays
Speaker 1: a unique characteristic only for that species. So if we
Speaker 1: compare that to modern you know, dog genomes and how
Speaker 1: other DNA looks, you can see that these remains that
Speaker 1: are found twenty thousand years ago are dogs, but there
Speaker 1: could be stuff before that that, you know, is the
Speaker 1: in between a wolf and a dog kind of thing,
Speaker 1: because you can't just turn a wolf into a dog overnight, right, right,
Speaker 1: So where is the oldest known site where we believe
Speaker 1: that dogs were with humans and these dogs were domesticated
Speaker 1: That It's hard to say because there's just so many
Speaker 1: dog remains that get found and wolf remains that it's
Speaker 1: you can't really say, Okay, is this a wolf or
Speaker 1: as a dog? If you find a wolf skull in
Speaker 1: a cave with human occupation, it could be a dog.
Speaker 1: At that point. The best indicator that I go with
Speaker 1: is certainly, by a fourteen thousand years we see a
Speaker 1: like human and dog like burial, like where they're buried together.
Speaker 1: So at that point we can say, even if it
Speaker 1: was just a wolf like that relationship had formed. What
Speaker 1: part of the world did is that particular fourteen thousand
Speaker 1: year old site in Yeah, that is in bond Overcastle, Germany.
Speaker 1: That was the first dog human burials, the oldest known
Speaker 1: dog human burials that we see. Correct, That one is
Speaker 1: kind of contested because it could be a wolf. Still
Speaker 1: it's just a pup, so it's hard to tell. But
Speaker 1: either way, it's a canied burial with a human. But
Speaker 1: then in ten thousand years ago there's one in Israel.
Speaker 1: It's up by the Sea of Galilee and it's a
Speaker 1: Natufian site, so the first people to start, you know,
Speaker 1: farming and doing agriculture. And there's a middle aged woman
Speaker 1: buried with a puppy and her hands like resting on
Speaker 1: the puppy. So that's that's definitive to understand dogs like
Speaker 1: so in one we just have dogs of all sizes, shape,
Speaker 1: some colors that do all kinds of stuff, all dogs
Speaker 1: domesticated from the one wild canon that we can trace
Speaker 1: it back to, which is the wolf. Is that correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it depends on your school of thought. We find new
Speaker 1: stuff all the time and keep dating it and keep
Speaker 1: checking the DNA, and it's a it's a wacky picture.
Speaker 1: Some people think it is a gray wolf that we
Speaker 1: know today that they have descended from or it's an
Speaker 1: extinct group of wolves that is no longer around, and
Speaker 1: that dogs are that like ecological adaptation of those wolves
Speaker 1: living with humans and they just kind of died out.
Speaker 1: But the main thing is that it did come from
Speaker 1: a wolf creature. The genesis of the hundreds of dog
Speaker 1: breeds we have today came from the Victorian era in
Speaker 1: Britain when dog shows became popular. The United Kennel Club
Speaker 1: or the UK Seeker we recognizes over three hundred different
Speaker 1: breeds of dogs. What brings us all together is understanding
Speaker 1: that these aren't different species, they are all the same species.
Speaker 1: The imprint of artificial or human influence selection is notable.
Speaker 1: It's hard to fathom that the genetic coating of a
Speaker 1: single species that looks very much the same wolves has
Speaker 1: such genetic scripting that in its genes you could get
Speaker 1: a pug and a golden Retriever out of the same stuff. Amazing. Hey,
Speaker 1: did you know that originally all gray wolves were gray?
Speaker 1: A black wolf is the influence of domestic dogs hybridizing
Speaker 1: back into wolf populations. Naturally, there were only gray wolves.
Speaker 1: Put that in your pipe and smoking. So to understand
Speaker 1: our connection to dogs, I think we gotta go way back,
Speaker 1: way back and understand how dogs were domesticated. I know
Speaker 1: there's multiple ideas, multiple theories. In the beauty of anthropology.
Speaker 1: When we're so certain about so many things, is that
Speaker 1: there's some stuff that's so deep in history that we
Speaker 1: are uncertain. I love that. But there are definitely some
Speaker 1: some theories of dog domestication, and you don't have to
Speaker 1: think too hard to perceive how it might have happened.
Speaker 1: But can you describe for me your number one theory,
Speaker 1: the theory that you like the best of how dogs
Speaker 1: originally became domesticated. Yeah, I can definitely do that. It's
Speaker 1: kind of involves two theories, but I can kind of
Speaker 1: merge it into one. Uh. And that is the idea
Speaker 1: that wolves and humans are like kind of similar animals,
Speaker 1: not in the sense that you know, wolves aren't primates,
Speaker 1: but that wolves and humans have a similar social structure.
Speaker 1: We both cooperatively hunt, we talked to each other, and
Speaker 1: we like work together to achieved goals. So humans entering Eurasia,
Speaker 1: out of Africa or wherever we're seeing wolves, you know,
Speaker 1: behave the way that they do, and we probably took
Speaker 1: note of that and learned, Okay, this is how you
Speaker 1: efficiently hunt bison. This is how you efficiently hunt you know,
Speaker 1: red deer or whatever, or reindeer is what we both
Speaker 1: ate a lot of and noticed how that worked. And
Speaker 1: it's pretty metal, is the way I would describe it.
Speaker 1: In the beginning of that like relationship forming humans. Let's
Speaker 1: say live in an open air camp like in the
Speaker 1: Czech Republic somewhere, and maybe in a man with hot structure,
Speaker 1: and they're cooking food out in the open. Wolves are
Speaker 1: going to smell that, and they're gonna be like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: why would I bother hunting if I can just go
Speaker 1: sneak up on this camp at night and steal their food.
Speaker 1: So if we look at dogs today, we know they
Speaker 1: just there's junkyard dogs, there's dump dogs. They just scavenge food.
Speaker 1: And pet dogs do it too, But people would have
Speaker 1: noticed that those dogs were doing that, or wolves, I
Speaker 1: should say, and then take a note of it. So
Speaker 1: eventually they could have been them more or you know,
Speaker 1: after generations of that happening, they could be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: these ones aren't gonna hurt us, They're just hungry, and
Speaker 1: that relationship starts forming that way. So what happened they
Speaker 1: over time, there was benefit to the wolves that weren't
Speaker 1: as afraid of humans, because there would have been some
Speaker 1: diversity in a wolf pack. I mean, just like there's
Speaker 1: diversity in all the same species, there's gonna be animals
Speaker 1: that are more leary and others that aren't. So perhaps
Speaker 1: some of these wolves started gaining biological advantage by being
Speaker 1: less weary of humans because they're eating out of their camp.
Speaker 1: And then the humans started to take note of this,
Speaker 1: and like they just kind of started getting closer and closer.
Speaker 1: And then do you think a human caught a wolf pup?
Speaker 1: Do you think they tamed a grown one? I mean,
Speaker 1: like I know, there's probably there's multiple domestication acts happening
Speaker 1: all across the planet, probably at the same time. I mean,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just one initial act of domestication, am I right? Sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that that's kind of where it turns into the
Speaker 1: different theories. So the base one is that for me,
Speaker 1: like that clearly we see it happened now, definitely happened then.
Speaker 1: But then from there it determines like did people take
Speaker 1: active note and then kill the aggressive wolves and say,
Speaker 1: like just leave the ones that are nice? Did they
Speaker 1: then start adopting their pups and raising them because they
Speaker 1: were like, oh what if we just raised it from
Speaker 1: a puppy all day, It's whole life. Um. And then
Speaker 1: there's the other one where this was happening. And then
Speaker 1: while wolves and humans were hunting, they would have come
Speaker 1: into contact with each other and the same thing kind
Speaker 1: of happened. So instead of scavenging at their camp, humans
Speaker 1: are like beating wolves to their kill. Are waiting for
Speaker 1: wolves to kill something, and then they kill the aggressive
Speaker 1: ones and all other ones go away. Hey, I got
Speaker 1: a story to tell you, David. It's entirely possible for
Speaker 1: a hunter gatherer to catch a canine wild pup. I
Speaker 1: know this because I've done it. One of my favorite
Speaker 1: stories my boys were young, they were like four and
Speaker 1: six years old. We were out scouting for deer here
Speaker 1: in Arkansas, and I walked out in the woods on
Speaker 1: just a little jaunt. I left him kind of by
Speaker 1: the four wheeler, and I said, hey, I'll be back
Speaker 1: in five minutes. I went for a little walk and
Speaker 1: jumped up. I don't know what they were doing, but
Speaker 1: it was three coyote pups that looked like nine week
Speaker 1: old puppies, you know, they probably weighed eight or nine
Speaker 1: pounds maybe, and they took off running. Well, I just
Speaker 1: by instinct just started chasing them. I ended up catching
Speaker 1: one of those suckers. To make a long story short,
Speaker 1: I was chasing him, and uh, you know, they just
Speaker 1: split off one by one. I was chasing three, and
Speaker 1: then one would split off, and then I was chasing two,
Speaker 1: and then one split off, and then I picked one
Speaker 1: to keep chasing. And I was running and I remember
Speaker 1: I started running down this drainage. This Kyle was hopping
Speaker 1: from rock to rock, and I fell man my and
Speaker 1: got in front of my feet and I took a
Speaker 1: spill harder than I've ever taken a spill. As I'm falling,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what bone I'm gonna break.
Speaker 1: I hit the ground. But what I was most disappointed
Speaker 1: about was I knew that Kyle was getting away from me. Well,
Speaker 1: when I hit the ground and realized I wasn't hurt,
Speaker 1: I lifted up my head and that Kyle Pup had
Speaker 1: laid up in a ball about four ft in front
Speaker 1: of me. I guess he saw me like coming over
Speaker 1: him and his instinct was to fall up. Well, he
Speaker 1: sees me raise up my head and look at him,
Speaker 1: and he takes off running again. So I jump up
Speaker 1: and take off running, and he darts in a hole
Speaker 1: and I flip over this rock on top of the hole,
Speaker 1: and he's bawled up right there, and I just reached
Speaker 1: out and grab him by the nape of the neck
Speaker 1: and picked him up, took him home. We tried to
Speaker 1: tame him. He kept biting me. I kept him for
Speaker 1: about four weeks and never could tame him. But if
Speaker 1: I had really wanted to tame him, I could have.
Speaker 1: I was just afraid he was gonna hurt one of
Speaker 1: my is, so I turned the sucker loose. I hope
Speaker 1: this story somehow aide you in your studies of dogs
Speaker 1: and humans. For sure it does, because one of my
Speaker 1: like weirdest or not weirdest, I would say, but one
Speaker 1: of the biggest hangups I had with the like it's
Speaker 1: called the Pinocchio hypothesis, is adopted because you're trying to
Speaker 1: make it into a real boy or real wolf or whatever,
Speaker 1: real dog. I guess I should say. I always wondered
Speaker 1: do people just stick their hands in wolf dens and
Speaker 1: risk getting their fingers bit off? Or how does that work.
Speaker 1: So there's a there's a theory of domestication called the
Speaker 1: Pinocchio theory. Yeah, so either the mother died and they
Speaker 1: adopt the pups or they just intentionally said, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: make a dog today and like when you know, we're
Speaker 1: gonna keep it as a pet kind of thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now that I know this theory, I'm a firm believer
Speaker 1: in it. Serious, I think. I mean, because people that
Speaker 1: are on the landscape, a lot that are in the woods,
Speaker 1: a lot which obviously hunter gathers. I mean, over sure,
Speaker 1: anywhere else to go do you encounter dens and groundborough
Speaker 1: Den's like a wolf would have, are very visible as
Speaker 1: opposed to other types of animals that would have kind
Speaker 1: of vegetation nests as den's you know that are camouflage,
Speaker 1: Like a hole in the ground is not camouflage, and
Speaker 1: you know, so I can see and in in prehistoric
Speaker 1: hunters also killed animals from their dens on purpose because
Speaker 1: it was a good ambush spot. I bet somebody like
Speaker 1: saw a fresh wolf did went over there with their
Speaker 1: spear or their adleaddle or their rock or whatever they
Speaker 1: had killed a wolf. And then I was like, dang,
Speaker 1: I hear some puffs whimper and reached in there and
Speaker 1: pulled out a few bottom home, threw them to their
Speaker 1: ten year old son and said, hey, let's feed that
Speaker 1: thing tam it. We've just created a whole new theory. David,
Speaker 1: there you go that that's cool. I don't get to
Speaker 1: like work with modern hunters too often, so it's always
Speaker 1: nice to hear of these stories. So the similarities between
Speaker 1: wolves and humans is fascinating. If a wolf that hunts
Speaker 1: in the pack, he's got to be tuned into the
Speaker 1: nuance and obviously primarily nonverbal nuance of the pack numbers,
Speaker 1: because they have this hierarchy and significant social structure inside
Speaker 1: their their pack that enables them the hunt. They have
Speaker 1: alpha male, they have total hierarchy. So that enabled wolves
Speaker 1: to move into a very similar hierarchy that humans had,
Speaker 1: and they would have been able to pick up on
Speaker 1: nonverbal cues like when a human was upset with them,
Speaker 1: when a human was happy with them. They would have
Speaker 1: been able to perceive danger that like this human wants
Speaker 1: to harm me, or this human doesn't, so talk about
Speaker 1: that a little bit. How did our similarities bring us together?
Speaker 1: The biggest one that I've learned recently is that wolves
Speaker 1: kind of have a more monogamous lifestyle then other animals do.
Speaker 1: And it's not that they mate for life with one person.
Speaker 1: They just they rear they're young together. And even if
Speaker 1: humans in the past we're swapping, you know, babysitting duty
Speaker 1: between the different people. The point is we put a
Speaker 1: significant amount of time into raising our young, and wolves
Speaker 1: do the same thing. All species adapt a strategy for
Speaker 1: rearing young. Some have lots of offspring and give little
Speaker 1: to no parental input, like a fish land thousands of eggs.
Speaker 1: In the biology world, this is termed our selection or
Speaker 1: an R adapted species. Remember that the R stands for
Speaker 1: reproduction and lots of reproduction. Other species put significant inputs
Speaker 1: and smaller numbers of offspring, like an elephant, which it's
Speaker 1: calf stays with the mother for three to five years.
Speaker 1: This is called K selection, and K refers to carrying capacity.
Speaker 1: Even though those are two cs, not sure the connection.
Speaker 1: Humans and wool are both K adapted species, meaning that
Speaker 1: we put a lot of parental input into our offspring.
Speaker 1: A wolf pup would respond pretty well to how humans
Speaker 1: obviously were to raise it, and that's why dogs we
Speaker 1: kind of see puppies like babies to us. Now, Uh,
Speaker 1: there's like that hierarchy that they're used to, and they
Speaker 1: feed off of social cues. So if you watched wolves
Speaker 1: hunt or wolves eat, one always eats first. Some have
Speaker 1: to stay back and wait till later. That's something humans
Speaker 1: could replicate in the past, or just all sorts of
Speaker 1: little things like that, and like eye contact as well,
Speaker 1: like you could just be like no and directly raise
Speaker 1: your voice and do it and it we might stay
Speaker 1: back kind of thing, you know. I guess the other
Speaker 1: thing too, is that they have built into the structure
Speaker 1: of their biology a desire to submit to something like
Speaker 1: there is a there's a boss, and so I mean
Speaker 1: in the dog human relationship, the human is always the boss,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. Um. And I know there's a lot
Speaker 1: of like debate with like dog training methods, if that's
Speaker 1: like the way to go about it and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: but I genuinely think it helped humans and dogs like
Speaker 1: co exist together in the past, whether or not it's
Speaker 1: a good training method or not. You know, talk to
Speaker 1: me about dog eyes. So dogs have what's called or
Speaker 1: all domestic animals have what's called NAT and neatny is
Speaker 1: just accentuated juvenile features. So if you look at a
Speaker 1: baby chimp, we're gonna go, oh wow, it's cute. If
Speaker 1: you look at a baby chipmunk, you can say, oh wow,
Speaker 1: that's cute. But to keep something juvenile and like behaving
Speaker 1: not aggressively, uh, when you keep selecting for that trait,
Speaker 1: it's gonna end up looking like that. Obviously, the ancestors
Speaker 1: of cows are gone, but their horns have shrunk. A
Speaker 1: bunch sheep is move on, and then the ibex is
Speaker 1: the goat, all their horns have shrunk. So when you
Speaker 1: do that with dogs, they're kind of snout kind of
Speaker 1: shrinks a little bit. Their teeth get a little smaller,
Speaker 1: and their whole body gets a little smaller, and they
Speaker 1: stay cuter and their eyes have gotten bigger. So what
Speaker 1: that does is we're accentuating is like you and I
Speaker 1: are looking at each other right now, and we have
Speaker 1: this like white sclera in our eyes. We're among the
Speaker 1: only animals to have that that's accentuated as much as
Speaker 1: it is. And then we've brought that out in dogs
Speaker 1: so that we can both make eye contact each other
Speaker 1: and read emotions. So what you're playing is like most
Speaker 1: animals have eyes that are completely colored, Like you look
Speaker 1: at the eye of the deer and it's like exactly brown,
Speaker 1: So you can't pick up nuances of eye movement with
Speaker 1: the white in our eyes. Were able to communicate more
Speaker 1: clearly with our eyes. Is that is that what you're describing? Correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's incredible. It is pretty cool. Chimps have it,
Speaker 1: Gorillas have it um and not all the time. Their
Speaker 1: iris kind of takes up most of their eye. Like
Speaker 1: if you look like a deer or a horse like
Speaker 1: you just said, because there is white, but it's it's
Speaker 1: underneath the eyelids. You don't see it, like like what
Speaker 1: a horse or a mule. Yeah, we've selected for that
Speaker 1: puppy dog trait and the puppy dog. We didn't do
Speaker 1: that intentionally though, I don't. I don't think so, because
Speaker 1: somebody and like you know, the Mesolithic in a cave
Speaker 1: wasn't like I'm gonna make these thing's eyes bigger. But
Speaker 1: it just kind of happens over time because you're selecting
Speaker 1: for that that juvenile behavior. So like if if you
Speaker 1: had a litter of pups, you had six pups and
Speaker 1: there were two of them that you felt a stronger
Speaker 1: connection to and probably the person didn't even realize why
Speaker 1: they had a stronger connection to this dog. They could
Speaker 1: just communicate with this dog better, they had visual things
Speaker 1: that they liked about the dog better. They would lean
Speaker 1: towards nurturing that dog, and the survival of that dog
Speaker 1: would be much more sure. Is that right? So? I
Speaker 1: mean just like they would just over time, overdoing that
Speaker 1: for a thousand generations of dogs, you begin to see
Speaker 1: what at one time was nuanced become like a dominant trait,
Speaker 1: which would be like wide around the eyes and eyes
Speaker 1: that looked human exactly. Yeah, you're just accentuating that. That
Speaker 1: is man, Yeah, it is. And have you heard of
Speaker 1: the Siberian fox experiment at all? I have, but let's
Speaker 1: talk about it. So the Siberian fox experiment was started
Speaker 1: by Dmitri bla Yayev. He's a Soviet geneticist and he
Speaker 1: wanted to breed Russian silver foxes and make them a
Speaker 1: little more docile so they were easier to get their
Speaker 1: furs from. I think one story said he was it
Speaker 1: was for the Soviet army. I think another he just
Speaker 1: was doing research, But it doesn't matter. The point is
Speaker 1: he was breeding the foxes to get them to be
Speaker 1: easier to you know, a fur farm. And that's kind
Speaker 1: of where the debate comes if it's a good or
Speaker 1: bad thing to do it from the beginning, But the
Speaker 1: point is he would stick his hand in the cage
Speaker 1: with a glove on and see which foxes were aggressive,
Speaker 1: and if they bit the glove or hissed him, he
Speaker 1: considered them aggressive. And if he put his hand in
Speaker 1: there and they just kind of coward or didn't really
Speaker 1: react to it negatively, he would call them a you know,
Speaker 1: domestic or good. And he kept breeding those with each
Speaker 1: other and breeding the aggressive ones with each other, and
Speaker 1: the aggressive ones became very aggressive and had this crazy
Speaker 1: adrenaline response, but the ones that weren't aggressive ended up
Speaker 1: getting floppy ears, their tails started the wag, they had
Speaker 1: spotted coats, and they had increased eye contact with people.
Speaker 1: So in a sense, he made a domestic fox, which
Speaker 1: is why there's a big movement of buying those now.
Speaker 1: But the point with that would be that you know,
Speaker 1: he did it very quickly in fifteen generations. I think
Speaker 1: it's thirteen or fifteen. You can make something domestic really quickly,
Speaker 1: and you can it definitely changes its features. So they
Speaker 1: had the bigger eyes, they had all that kind of
Speaker 1: So there's something genetically with it. Whether people in the
Speaker 1: past were doing that from the get go and did
Speaker 1: it in fifteen generations, I doubt it probably took thousands
Speaker 1: of years. But the point, as you can get a
Speaker 1: dog to understand this more, you'll need to understand domestication syndrome,
Speaker 1: which is well accepted in the biology world, and it
Speaker 1: describes how domestic animals look and act different than their
Speaker 1: wild counterparts in consistent ways. And domesticated mammals it consistently
Speaker 1: produces smaller brains, depigmentation or variance in color, and increased
Speaker 1: tameness as a result of hormone changes that influence how
Speaker 1: the animals respond to fear and stress. Oddly, in many animals,
Speaker 1: including dogs, domestication usually produces floppy ears. The effects of
Speaker 1: human selection bias on what once a wild animal was
Speaker 1: is fascinating. Think of this way, a prehistoric human who
Speaker 1: would have been basically just like us in consciousness, emotions,
Speaker 1: and his drive for a better life bred as dogs
Speaker 1: in a similar way. Say to like a squirrel dog breeder,
Speaker 1: He'd say, I like the way that that one does
Speaker 1: its job, so I think I'll breed him to that
Speaker 1: one that does this good job too. Earnie On it
Speaker 1: probably wasn't that straightforward, but simply the dogs that did
Speaker 1: the work more naturally were the ones that got fed,
Speaker 1: were nurtured and survived, so they naturally bread do that
Speaker 1: for a long period of time, and you get this
Speaker 1: human selection bias coming up very strongly in these dogs.
Speaker 1: The one thing that has been constant and the human
Speaker 1: archaeological record is that where you find humans, you find dogs.
Speaker 1: And we have had this animal with us side by side,
Speaker 1: and scientists would call it coevolution. We have certainly changed
Speaker 1: dogs from wolves to what we see today and all
Speaker 1: the specific breeds of dogs. The question that I have
Speaker 1: that is not answered for me yet is how have
Speaker 1: dogs changed us? And how much do dogs in our
Speaker 1: use and working with dogs actually define our humanity? And
Speaker 1: I want I want to hear your thoughts on that,
Speaker 1: because what we're seeing in some parts of where the
Speaker 1: dog and human world overlap is we're trying to write
Speaker 1: a new set of rules for how humans can use dogs.
Speaker 1: And I want to hear your commentary on that. How
Speaker 1: have dogs changed us? Yeah? Are you familiar with the
Speaker 1: term behavioral ecology, describe that for me sure. So it
Speaker 1: is the idea that organisms operate in a way to
Speaker 1: get the most bang for their buck. In a sense,
Speaker 1: you want to spend the least amount of calories to
Speaker 1: get the most amount of calories back. So obviously hunting
Speaker 1: with at ladles and chasing some thing is a lot
Speaker 1: more calorie expensive than it is to shoot some of
Speaker 1: the rival from further away. That being said, human behavioral
Speaker 1: ecology is part of the archaeology that I study. You
Speaker 1: can look at sites and how they form based on this,
Speaker 1: and you can try to piece together what humans were doing,
Speaker 1: like why they have so much food here there? With
Speaker 1: that dogs having them with you, you would think, why
Speaker 1: would a hunter gatherer want to waste their time feeding
Speaker 1: another organism? Why spend this time doing that? For hundreds
Speaker 1: of thousands of years, we don't see dogs, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, these things start appearing at sites,
Speaker 1: and it would just make no sense to like feed
Speaker 1: something extra. So there's a benefit that we get from them.
Speaker 1: And since dogs can kind of just eat the scraps
Speaker 1: that we have, you don't have to feed them excessive
Speaker 1: amounts of food. Or they'll just eat our refuse around
Speaker 1: the site. We can spend less effort hunting because you
Speaker 1: have the extra set of eyes, the extra set of ears,
Speaker 1: and their nose, and they can do a lot of
Speaker 1: the work for us, so they get a lot our
Speaker 1: calories back for us than we have to give to them.
Speaker 1: So it's definitely increased our population in a sense. That's
Speaker 1: increased there like hunting ability, and it's increased our our
Speaker 1: range because not only do you have something that can
Speaker 1: help you hunt more efficiently, you also have something that
Speaker 1: when you tie it up outside your camp at night,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get lions, you're not gonna get panthers,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna get Hyena's coming to mess with you
Speaker 1: at night. You've made its safe. Yeah, And I would
Speaker 1: say agriculture has been the most significant change in our
Speaker 1: our technological history, uh, you know, because you can mass
Speaker 1: produce and you can make cities and things like that.
Speaker 1: But before that, right before it came dogs, and I
Speaker 1: think that definitely helped get us to that point. Here's
Speaker 1: an interesting thought. Have you ever taken note of how
Speaker 1: ill equipped humans seem to be in the natural world.
Speaker 1: We don't have thick hair, big claws or teeth. We
Speaker 1: don't have a great sense of smell, we can't run
Speaker 1: very fast, and we're weak compared to other animals are
Speaker 1: side eyes. However, we're the most biologically successful mammal in
Speaker 1: this epic of planet Earth. Do we owe a big
Speaker 1: part of our current existence to dogs? Everywhere that we're weak,
Speaker 1: they're strong. If you look at human existence as a whole,
Speaker 1: every section of that existence is critical to the next.
Speaker 1: And there was a time when we were quite literally
Speaker 1: going one on one with nature. We were at the
Speaker 1: mercy of giant, fast predators, extreme temperatures, and we lived
Speaker 1: off the land. The last three hundred years of human existence,
Speaker 1: where we've had modern conveniences is a new human experience
Speaker 1: comparable to a single page in a book. Is thick
Speaker 1: is a jacked up mudding truck in Mississippi. My point
Speaker 1: is this, we survived and thrived in our hunter gathered
Speaker 1: past in a big part because of dogs, not just
Speaker 1: any dogs, but hunting dogs. The story of the dog
Speaker 1: is synonymous with the story of mankind. And that really
Speaker 1: brings me to like why I wanted to talk to you, Because,
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, some people and ideas and philosophies
Speaker 1: currently today are kind of trying to change the rules
Speaker 1: about how humans used dogs, specifically inside of using hunting dogs,
Speaker 1: which is the very foundation of the reason we even
Speaker 1: have domestic dogs to begin with, the only reason you
Speaker 1: have a chihuahua, the only reason you have a German
Speaker 1: Shepherd in your backyard is because of hunting. And then
Speaker 1: now in hunting space, the most persecuted hunting in North
Speaker 1: America is big game hunting with dogs, particularly bears, mountain lions,
Speaker 1: and and there's lots of different reasons why people see that.
Speaker 1: They think it's a relic of the past. They think
Speaker 1: it's bar barrack. Some people would say that it's not
Speaker 1: relevant to modern times. What are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I think we have dogs for this reason, that's what
Speaker 1: they're good at. And obviously, like you're a bear hunter,
Speaker 1: you have dogs that are very good at hunting bear.
Speaker 1: I'd imagine I talked to someone else recently about that
Speaker 1: same thing, and you're right, Like a German shepherd is
Speaker 1: a guard dog, and it's a it's a shepherd, and
Speaker 1: like it can do that behavior as a pet in
Speaker 1: a way, like that's not its only job, but it
Speaker 1: can do it a two hours, just a toy dog essentially.
Speaker 1: But then you have dogs like coon hounds and other hounds,
Speaker 1: and you know, like hunting dogs that are designed and
Speaker 1: bred for that, and it's doing them a disservice to
Speaker 1: not do that behavior, and that's where you get aggression issues,
Speaker 1: and that's where you get dogs that are always in shelters.
Speaker 1: I agree, I think there should be a way for
Speaker 1: dogs to do that kind of thing, and hopefully ethically.
Speaker 1: But if they if a bear hunting dog that bear
Speaker 1: hunting in an ethical manner, you know what I feel
Speaker 1: like is happening, Like at the very core of the
Speaker 1: argument that dogs should no longer be used for hunting
Speaker 1: in the way that they have for the last and
Speaker 1: let's be generous and say fourteen thousand years humans have
Speaker 1: used dogs for hunting, maybe twenty, I would make an
Speaker 1: argument that to take that away from from me and
Speaker 1: my children would be to strip away a part of
Speaker 1: our history that's potentially even coded into our d n
Speaker 1: A because we have been with dogs for so long,
Speaker 1: just like we've changed them, there's kind of incalculable ways
Speaker 1: that they have changed us in this connection. I read
Speaker 1: where they've done studies on dogs and humans that when
Speaker 1: a human engages with a dog, there's oxytocin that is released,
Speaker 1: which is a chemical the brain that humans crave and love.
Speaker 1: We don't even most people aren't even aware of it.
Speaker 1: We crave it and love it, and it gives us
Speaker 1: a sensation of safety and pleasure. And the same chemical
Speaker 1: is released in a dog when a human engages with
Speaker 1: it and pets it. And so it's like this ancient,
Speaker 1: irrational connection. And two, simply for the sake of whatever
Speaker 1: reason that people would have to say, that's no longer relevant.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's stripping away a part of our
Speaker 1: humanity and I'm not cool that. David. Yeah, I grew
Speaker 1: up in the Greater New York area and didn't live
Speaker 1: out West, didn't get to experience the wilderness in a way.
Speaker 1: So I grew up watching stuff like this and being like,
Speaker 1: why would they do that? Like that, don't do that
Speaker 1: to the animal, Like would hurt it? The cougar is
Speaker 1: gonna die scared, the bear is gonna die terrified, you know.
Speaker 1: But I moved out West for grad school, ended up
Speaker 1: hunting pronghorn. My friends got to gut it with still tools.
Speaker 1: That was really fun, and I got to see some
Speaker 1: dogs hunt at one point. I've never done it myself,
Speaker 1: but you're right in a sense, and like especially studying
Speaker 1: this at the same time, I was just fascinated by
Speaker 1: it because what I'm studying in the past is people
Speaker 1: hunting with dogs. That's just the gist of it. And
Speaker 1: I can't understand that unless I watch dogs hunt now,
Speaker 1: or at least learn about it from people like you.
Speaker 1: And I agree. I think it's a practice that should
Speaker 1: be kept because it is an integral part of our
Speaker 1: relationship um And obviously dogs sniffing dogs being centuries dogs
Speaker 1: that can stay, why couldn't that stay? And I would
Speaker 1: make the argument too that the quality of life that
Speaker 1: my squirrel dogs have and my coon dogs have, I
Speaker 1: would say, is probably far above the quality of life
Speaker 1: that a dog has that lives indoors, that is never
Speaker 1: allowed to free range across the landscape, dog that has
Speaker 1: been genetically altered from its original state in such a
Speaker 1: way that it can't really function. Like a lot of
Speaker 1: those specific breeds that we have today would not have
Speaker 1: survived in the wild there they were bred to be
Speaker 1: for an aesthetic or for a certain, very highly specific job.
Speaker 1: And hunting dogs are much more in tune with their
Speaker 1: original design than just like your lap dog. I mean,
Speaker 1: because you know, like my hounds, they're far from a wolf,
Speaker 1: but they're way closer to a wolf than a chihuahua.
Speaker 1: So that's where I have a problem with someone that
Speaker 1: has a chihuahua telling me not to bear hunt with
Speaker 1: my dogs. A philosophical problem with that idea. You know,
Speaker 1: I do have empathy for people that may not understand
Speaker 1: hunting with dogs. So it's it's not people that were against,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's really lack of information, lack of understanding.
Speaker 1: Because for someone that doesn't have any information that sees
Speaker 1: some portrayal of a bunch of hillbillies turn and loose
Speaker 1: their dogs to go kill a bear, that is very
Speaker 1: very easy to portray in a negative way to someone
Speaker 1: without information. Hill Billy bros. I've got to clarify that
Speaker 1: the word hill billy is a term of endearment to
Speaker 1: me and not a jab carry on. It takes a
Speaker 1: lot of steps of information and pursuit of understanding the
Speaker 1: position of the human that's doing that to actually come
Speaker 1: to a place where you could go from zero understanding
Speaker 1: to enough understanding to go, Yeah, I get it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I get why they do that. So we are up
Speaker 1: against a big mountain that is hard to climb. Because
Speaker 1: it's really easy to put up a billboard in any
Speaker 1: place and say one liner, you know, this is a
Speaker 1: bad thing. It's much harder to portray something as deeply human.
Speaker 1: Also a very huge component of scientific wildlife management that
Speaker 1: actually helps the species that we're hunting thrive. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's that's the biggest thing, David, of our position as
Speaker 1: hunters is. Yeah, we're not just wanting to have fun
Speaker 1: with our dogs. That's part of it, and yes, that
Speaker 1: is why we do it. But it's a beautiful stone
Speaker 1: that kills two birds with one chunk because we get
Speaker 1: to have this amazing interaction with our animals and a
Speaker 1: lifestyle that's built around them, and we also get to
Speaker 1: be key contributors to the success of the species that
Speaker 1: we're hunting. I mean, that's why North American hunting is
Speaker 1: just like this beautiful thing, and it has been portrayed
Speaker 1: in such a way that many people wouldn't describe it
Speaker 1: or understand it that way. And and dogs are one
Speaker 1: of the most contentious parts of it. And so I
Speaker 1: hope that are standing. Kind of the deep human history
Speaker 1: with dogs, the original way that we used them, the
Speaker 1: original design of how we use them, can help people
Speaker 1: bridge the gap between that and now when they see
Speaker 1: me with my coon dogs and squirrel dogs and bear dogs.
Speaker 1: Because I think it's an awesome thing. I think it
Speaker 1: it makes me more human to turn loose my dogs
Speaker 1: in the woods and interact with them. I'm raccoon hunting
Speaker 1: with my daughter River using our American plot hounds. We
Speaker 1: free cast the dogs into the darkness, meaning we've just
Speaker 1: turned them loose with GPS collars on so we can
Speaker 1: keep track of them, and they've gone out and found
Speaker 1: the fresh scent of a raccoon. Hopefully they'll trail the
Speaker 1: scent of the critter until it runs up a treat
Speaker 1: where they'll tree it, meaning they'll bark at the base
Speaker 1: of the tree and wait for us to come to them.
Speaker 1: Following hounds that you've trained is a rare human pleasure,
Speaker 1: tickling ancient mechanisms inside of me that are beyond reason,
Speaker 1: and our hunting serves an important role in wildlife management.
Speaker 1: We're in for a treat, all right, River, you're right dogs,
Speaker 1: All right, River, We're gonna we're gonna turn these dogs
Speaker 1: out by this pond. It's been raining, but I figured
Speaker 1: by now the coons have had a little time to stir.
Speaker 1: Let's just get him, all right, and you ready, Scooter,
Speaker 1: you're ready? Firm? Ah, you're ready. We'll get him. Did firm?
Speaker 1: Just part? I do? True? It sounds like it. It
Speaker 1: sounds like it. Man, it's about to rain. Are they
Speaker 1: are they moving? Let's just walk out here? Are they moving? Man?
Speaker 1: If they treat one tonight, I'm gonna be pretty proud
Speaker 1: of not ideal conditions? Yeah, oh yeah, good lords. Talk
Speaker 1: to him now, talk to I don't know we're gonna
Speaker 1: find him in this mess, but I think he's in here.
Speaker 1: What do you think? It's amazing what these dogs can do.
Speaker 1: We have never had any clue that coon was around here.
Speaker 1: Talk to him, talk to him. Yeah, River, I've been
Speaker 1: dragging you around since you could walk. Coon hunting ever
Speaker 1: think that this is ridiculous and kind of irrational? How
Speaker 1: much we love our dogs? Of course not, It's totally right,
Speaker 1: totally what you think? So so convinced. You know, most
Speaker 1: people are home watching Netflix right now, and we're out
Speaker 1: here wandering around the ticks and chiggers and getting wet
Speaker 1: the river. What do you what do you like about
Speaker 1: this coon hun I like, like all of it. I
Speaker 1: like it's the only I think it's the only t
Speaker 1: typeting we do that's at night, and so it's cool
Speaker 1: to be out here at night. And then, I mean,
Speaker 1: it was so fun training these dogs. I mean I
Speaker 1: remember when we were I was like twelve years old
Speaker 1: and training Fern, and it was like the coolest thing
Speaker 1: in the world. And it's so cool now that she'll go,
Speaker 1: she'll go trained by yourself, and that we taught her
Speaker 1: how to do that. So it's awesome to see see that.
Speaker 1: And then it's also the only kind of hand you
Speaker 1: can talk through. So you can't have to sit still.
Speaker 1: You don't have to. You can people. Yeah, you can
Speaker 1: bring you bring your friends, and bring your dogs. If
Speaker 1: your dogs are your friends, and your dogs are your
Speaker 1: best friends, good boys, by good, all right, he's in
Speaker 1: the whole way. I'm gonna find him. We're gonna find him.
Speaker 1: Let's go home. My grandfather's bird dogs have long since passed,
Speaker 1: but his love of working and hunting dogs is strongly
Speaker 1: alive inside of me today and every time I turn
Speaker 1: loose my coon hounds, or I see my squirrel dogs
Speaker 1: elated to tree. A squirrel sense exactly what he did
Speaker 1: and what ancient humans of the past did too, A
Speaker 1: deep and hard to explain fascination and partnering with the
Speaker 1: dog to do work and acquire wild protein. I'm confident
Speaker 1: that our connection to dogs and specific lead to hunting dogs,
Speaker 1: is an important cog in the robust definition of what
Speaker 1: it means to be human. You can follow my guests
Speaker 1: David ian How at David ian How dot com. You
Speaker 1: can also follow him on YouTube and Instagram at Ethno
Speaker 1: Sinology that's e t h n O se y n
Speaker 1: O l o g y ethno sinology, which is the
Speaker 1: study of dogs and humans. Check out David I and
Speaker 1: How