1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, alright, River, we're gonna we're gonna turn these dogs 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: out by this pond. It's been raining, but I figured 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: by now the coons have had a little time to stir. 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Let's just get him, all right, and you ready, Scooter, 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: You're ready for m ah, You're ready. We'll get him. 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, we're going deep, 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: deep into human history to explore the impact of man's 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: best friend, the dog, on us. I'll interview some lads 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: that use their canines for some unique tasks, and I'll 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: interview anthropologists David ian Howe, who specializes in the dog 11 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: human relationship, and we're searching for answers because there are 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: some new ideologies trying to change the rules on how 13 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: humans use dogs and modern times. Then we'll go into 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: the night woods and listen to my dogs work as 15 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: we reflect on this question. Is partnering with dogs an 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: essential definer of our humanity? Do you ever think that 17 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: this is ridiculous and kind of irrational? How much how 18 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: much we love our dogs? Of course, that's rational, totally 19 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: what you think. So also convinced. You know, most people 20 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: are home watching Netflix right now. My name is Clay 21 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll 22 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight and unlikely places, 23 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: and where we'll tell the story of Americans who lived 24 00:01:53,520 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: their lives close to the land. I like dogs, always have, 25 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: but not in the typical way you would expect a 26 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: person in to like a dog. I don't necessarily like 27 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,839 Speaker 1: to pet dogs, and I don't think I utilize them 28 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: as emotional companions. But my connection to dogs is a 29 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: layer deeper. And I don't say that in an elitist 30 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: kind of way. I quite literally mean it's a layer 31 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: beyond the surface, because it doesn't make sense. I've always 32 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: felt my love for dogs was irrational and couldn't be explained. 33 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: You might have those same feelings echoing inside of you. 34 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: Many people do. My grandfather, Lewin Nukeam, was a bird 35 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,679 Speaker 1: dog trainer to the core. He grew up in an 36 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: era when quail and the south were thriving. Every other 37 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:58,679 Speaker 1: farmhouse you drove past might have a pair of liver 38 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: spotted pointers or an English center behind the house. He 39 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: understood dogs and how to partner with him, but what 40 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: was notable to me was the place of regard the 41 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: bird dogs held in his internal hierarchy of important things. 42 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: They were danging there at the top. If you look 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: at this from a completely rational perspective, you'd assume the 44 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: dogs must have provided some essential component of survival. But 45 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: he and my grandmother didn't live off qail meat without trying. 46 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: He built in me a love for country stores. High 47 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: is made from scratch at country diners, biscuits and gravy, 48 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: and homegrown sweet corn. But the most dominant feature that 49 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: he instilled in me, aside from components of my internal 50 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: character and faith, was his irrational, high ranking platform that 51 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: he placed his dogs on. There's something deeper to be 52 00:03:54,160 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: explored here. My friend Damon bun Gard has a unique 53 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: relationship with his dog, and together they accomplish a unique job. 54 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 1: Aside from the fact that I think Damon and his dog, 55 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeager look like each other, both handsome fellows. Of course, 56 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: Damon has dedicated a good chunk of his life to 57 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: his dog, and I want to explore their partnership. Damon, 58 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: I've known you for a while and you are definitely 59 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: someone that has an irrational connection to your dog. I'm 60 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: confident of that after I've seen you interact with your dogs. 61 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: Tell me what kind of dogs that you have and 62 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: what you do with them. So I have what's called 63 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: a tackle, which is a dog that most people see 64 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 1: and just say what kind of mixes that? It's a 65 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: working wire haired docks And a lot of people are like, oh, 66 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: it's like a Schnauser, you know, of what kind of 67 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: terrier mixes that? And they're the wire hair version of 68 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: a docks And it's generally considered the wire hairs are 69 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: the most hunting and working oriented, probably from some old 70 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: terrier genetics that helped give them the wire coat. Tackles 71 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: are also very much you know, they're they're bred to 72 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: the international standard of the f CI one eight. I 73 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: believe it is standard for a working dog and the 74 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: description is working dog above and below ground. Most people 75 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: here in the United States don't think of a docks 76 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: And as a working dog, but that's what they were 77 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,840 Speaker 1: bred to do in Europe. And the fact that the 78 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: breed standard is all around chest circumference, which is based 79 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: on animal holes, the size of a badger hole, the 80 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: size of a foxhole, the size of a rabbit hole. 81 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: They're tenacious hunters, they're very persistent dogs. They're very independent dogs. 82 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: In Europe, a lot of places require a dog for 83 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: big game recovery by law. So teckle yeager. He's registered 84 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: with the Dot your Tuckle Club and he's one of 85 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: the few true tackles in North America. So tell me 86 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: specifically what you do with him. So we track and 87 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: find wounded and lost big game for hunters, whether it's 88 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: a deer or other big game species, somebody shoots it, 89 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: loses it, can't find it, they track it for a while, 90 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: or there's no sign to track on, they call us. 91 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: We go out and on lead here in Tennessee when 92 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: most states and we find that animal. How often are 93 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: you successful at finding wounded game? And so these are 94 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: animals that the hunter has tried to find the animal 95 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: and has been unsuccessful. So they're calling you with the 96 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: hard ones, just with just an average, how how many 97 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: do you think you recover? I don't really get into 98 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: success rates, but on general, for the ones we do 99 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: take fifty to six. I say you leave with a 100 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: d percent confidence and knowing if it's alive or dead. 101 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: I am full faith that if it's dead, yeagger will 102 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: find it. Damon, is I hear you describe these dogs? 103 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: It's clear that the animal has been selectively bred for 104 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: a very long period of time to partner with humans 105 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: to complete a task that a human is incapable of 106 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: completing on their own, which is really the story of 107 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: the dogs. They're doing work for us. I want you 108 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: to describe for me your personal connection to this dog, 109 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 1: because I know these dogs live in your house. These 110 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: dogs are like they're important to you. Just talk to 111 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: me about your personal connection to your dog. A lot 112 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: of people approach working dogs and that's not being family members. 113 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: That's very much not Yeager's life. He's on the couch, 114 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: he's in the bed often. You know, when we travel, 115 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: do you ever have been around docksins? And just in general, 116 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: they're full of personality. People talk about personality and dogs 117 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: and that's a that's a human thing. We're projecting care 118 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: what you want. They have an attitude, they have a 119 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: lot of attitude. They're a little dogging with a lot 120 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: of attitude. So you you see that with him working 121 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: and he's a great tracking dog. He's also really good 122 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: at flushing birth. So he just loves to hunt. So 123 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: I love to hunt. So that's obviously a bond that 124 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: we share when when we're working together. Tracking is a 125 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: team effort. There are times where I mean, he just 126 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: blows my mind and what what he finds or how 127 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: he knows to go where he knows to go, I 128 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: would never know without his help. There's other times where 129 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: he needs my help. Damon. I know you know some 130 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: stuff about dog domestication, but let's just erase that, erase 131 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: that knowledge. Would you be surprised if you learned that 132 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: humans and dogs had been together for such a long 133 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: period of time that they had developed dependence upon one another? 134 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting to think too, that there 135 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: was a time when that connection was essential to human survival. 136 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: Today it's it's not quite that essential for most people. 137 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: You know, if you think about I mean, you're you 138 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: don't have this relationship with cattle like we eat cattle. 139 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: You don't have this relationship with chickens or with lizards, 140 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: or it's like this is a really special bond that 141 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: humans have with this one species. So I guess I 142 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: guess it was more of a statement than the question. 143 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: But I guess my question is would that surprise you? 144 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: If you could remove yourself, you'd be like, no, this 145 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: dog and me were just made for each other because 146 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: I will say, you kind of look like your dog, 147 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: and he's a handsome dog. He's a handsome dog. I mean, 148 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: it's all in the beard. Yes, certainly, certainly as a 149 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: student of biology, and you can get in symbiotic relationships 150 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:46,479 Speaker 1: and have we over time selectively even as humans evolved 151 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: and have has DNA in us that favors to prinionship 152 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: of dogs become more prevalent because they helped us get 153 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: more food and therefore that that gene bread more you 154 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: know you can get. You can get deep right into 155 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: into theory. It's where we're going on this podcast. David 156 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: Howe is an anthropologist who studies the dog human relationship. 157 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: I'm slightly nervous talking with him because I fear that 158 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: he might not confirm my bias. I hope he tells 159 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: me that my love of hunting dogs is deeply human 160 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: and highly relevant to modern society, and that his words 161 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: feed the narrative that's been crafted inside of me. But 162 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: I need to get to the bottom of this. Hunting 163 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: with dogs has become an issue of controversy in modern times, 164 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: and I'm interested to see what he has to say. So, David, 165 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 1: I am trying to understand and resolve a question that 166 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: I've had for a long time, and that is I'm 167 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: trying to understand my irrational connection to dogs and the 168 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: irrational connection of dogs that I see all throughout society, 169 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: from pet owners to working dogs to hunting dogs. And 170 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: it's always struck me as just odd how much we 171 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: like our dogs. And then now that I'm beginning to 172 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: learn more about it, searching a little bit deeper, I'm 173 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: trying to understand it. Why do we love dogs so much? 174 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: I wish I had like a one word answer for it, 175 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: other than that we just love them. But dogs have 176 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: been around for at least twenty thousand years or so, 177 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: probably further than that, so they've just kind of co 178 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,959 Speaker 1: adapted with human life for the longest time. And why 179 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: they're around. So let's go all the way back to 180 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:46,359 Speaker 1: the beginning. When do we believe that dogs were first domesticated? 181 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,079 Speaker 1: So this gets pushed back depending on which paper comes 182 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: out or like, you know, what school of thought you're with, 183 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: but the general consensus currently is twenty thousand years. Is 184 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: like the genetic signatures for a dog. Here, the gene 185 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 1: signature is about what you think it might be. It's 186 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: a group of genes or a single gene that displays 187 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: a unique characteristic only for that species. So if we 188 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: compare that to modern you know, dog genomes and how 189 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,200 Speaker 1: other DNA looks, you can see that these remains that 190 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: are found twenty thousand years ago are dogs, but there 191 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: could be stuff before that that, you know, is the 192 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: in between a wolf and a dog kind of thing, 193 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: because you can't just turn a wolf into a dog overnight, right, right, 194 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: So where is the oldest known site where we believe 195 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: that dogs were with humans and these dogs were domesticated 196 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: That It's hard to say because there's just so many 197 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: dog remains that get found and wolf remains that it's 198 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: you can't really say, Okay, is this a wolf or 199 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: as a dog? If you find a wolf skull in 200 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 1: a cave with human occupation, it could be a dog. 201 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: At that point. The best indicator that I go with 202 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: is certainly, by a fourteen thousand years we see a 203 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: like human and dog like burial, like where they're buried together. 204 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: So at that point we can say, even if it 205 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: was just a wolf like that relationship had formed. What 206 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: part of the world did is that particular fourteen thousand 207 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: year old site in Yeah, that is in bond Overcastle, Germany. 208 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: That was the first dog human burials, the oldest known 209 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: dog human burials that we see. Correct, That one is 210 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: kind of contested because it could be a wolf. Still 211 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: it's just a pup, so it's hard to tell. But 212 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: either way, it's a canied burial with a human. But 213 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: then in ten thousand years ago there's one in Israel. 214 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: It's up by the Sea of Galilee and it's a 215 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: Natufian site, so the first people to start, you know, 216 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: farming and doing agriculture. And there's a middle aged woman 217 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: buried with a puppy and her hands like resting on 218 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 1: the puppy. So that's that's definitive to understand dogs like 219 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: so in one we just have dogs of all sizes, shape, 220 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: some colors that do all kinds of stuff, all dogs 221 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: domesticated from the one wild canon that we can trace 222 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 1: it back to, which is the wolf. Is that correct? Yeah, 223 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: it depends on your school of thought. We find new 224 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: stuff all the time and keep dating it and keep 225 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: checking the DNA, and it's a it's a wacky picture. 226 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: Some people think it is a gray wolf that we 227 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: know today that they have descended from or it's an 228 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: extinct group of wolves that is no longer around, and 229 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: that dogs are that like ecological adaptation of those wolves 230 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: living with humans and they just kind of died out. 231 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: But the main thing is that it did come from 232 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: a wolf creature. The genesis of the hundreds of dog 233 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: breeds we have today came from the Victorian era in 234 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: Britain when dog shows became popular. The United Kennel Club 235 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: or the UK Seeker we recognizes over three hundred different 236 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: breeds of dogs. What brings us all together is understanding 237 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: that these aren't different species, they are all the same species. 238 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: The imprint of artificial or human influence selection is notable. 239 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: It's hard to fathom that the genetic coating of a 240 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: single species that looks very much the same wolves has 241 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: such genetic scripting that in its genes you could get 242 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: a pug and a golden Retriever out of the same stuff. Amazing. Hey, 243 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: did you know that originally all gray wolves were gray? 244 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: A black wolf is the influence of domestic dogs hybridizing 245 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: back into wolf populations. Naturally, there were only gray wolves. 246 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: Put that in your pipe and smoking. So to understand 247 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: our connection to dogs, I think we gotta go way back, 248 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: way back and understand how dogs were domesticated. I know 249 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: there's multiple ideas, multiple theories. In the beauty of anthropology. 250 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: When we're so certain about so many things, is that 251 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: there's some stuff that's so deep in history that we 252 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: are uncertain. I love that. But there are definitely some 253 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: some theories of dog domestication, and you don't have to 254 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: think too hard to perceive how it might have happened. 255 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: But can you describe for me your number one theory, 256 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: the theory that you like the best of how dogs 257 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: originally became domesticated. Yeah, I can definitely do that. It's 258 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: kind of involves two theories, but I can kind of 259 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: merge it into one. Uh. And that is the idea 260 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: that wolves and humans are like kind of similar animals, 261 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: not in the sense that you know, wolves aren't primates, 262 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: but that wolves and humans have a similar social structure. 263 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: We both cooperatively hunt, we talked to each other, and 264 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: we like work together to achieved goals. So humans entering Eurasia, 265 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: out of Africa or wherever we're seeing wolves, you know, 266 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: behave the way that they do, and we probably took 267 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: note of that and learned, Okay, this is how you 268 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: efficiently hunt bison. This is how you efficiently hunt you know, 269 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: red deer or whatever, or reindeer is what we both 270 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: ate a lot of and noticed how that worked. And 271 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: it's pretty metal, is the way I would describe it. 272 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: In the beginning of that like relationship forming humans. Let's 273 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: say live in an open air camp like in the 274 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: Czech Republic somewhere, and maybe in a man with hot structure, 275 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: and they're cooking food out in the open. Wolves are 276 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: going to smell that, and they're gonna be like, okay, well, 277 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,479 Speaker 1: why would I bother hunting if I can just go 278 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: sneak up on this camp at night and steal their food. 279 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: So if we look at dogs today, we know they 280 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: just there's junkyard dogs, there's dump dogs. They just scavenge food. 281 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: And pet dogs do it too, But people would have 282 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: noticed that those dogs were doing that, or wolves, I 283 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: should say, and then take a note of it. So 284 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: eventually they could have been them more or you know, 285 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: after generations of that happening, they could be like, Okay, 286 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: these ones aren't gonna hurt us, They're just hungry, and 287 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: that relationship starts forming that way. So what happened they 288 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: over time, there was benefit to the wolves that weren't 289 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: as afraid of humans, because there would have been some 290 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: diversity in a wolf pack. I mean, just like there's 291 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: diversity in all the same species, there's gonna be animals 292 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: that are more leary and others that aren't. So perhaps 293 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: some of these wolves started gaining biological advantage by being 294 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: less weary of humans because they're eating out of their camp. 295 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: And then the humans started to take note of this, 296 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: and like they just kind of started getting closer and closer. 297 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: And then do you think a human caught a wolf pup? 298 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 1: Do you think they tamed a grown one? I mean, 299 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: like I know, there's probably there's multiple domestication acts happening 300 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: all across the planet, probably at the same time. I mean, 301 00:18:56,359 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't just one initial act of domestication, am I right? Sure? Yeah, 302 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: And that that's kind of where it turns into the 303 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: different theories. So the base one is that for me, 304 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: like that clearly we see it happened now, definitely happened then. 305 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: But then from there it determines like did people take 306 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: active note and then kill the aggressive wolves and say, 307 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: like just leave the ones that are nice? Did they 308 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: then start adopting their pups and raising them because they 309 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: were like, oh what if we just raised it from 310 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: a puppy all day, It's whole life. Um. And then 311 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: there's the other one where this was happening. And then 312 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: while wolves and humans were hunting, they would have come 313 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: into contact with each other and the same thing kind 314 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: of happened. So instead of scavenging at their camp, humans 315 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: are like beating wolves to their kill. Are waiting for 316 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: wolves to kill something, and then they kill the aggressive 317 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 1: ones and all other ones go away. Hey, I got 318 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: a story to tell you, David. It's entirely possible for 319 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 1: a hunter gatherer to catch a canine wild pup. I 320 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: know this because I've done it. One of my favorite 321 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: stories my boys were young, they were like four and 322 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: six years old. We were out scouting for deer here 323 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: in Arkansas, and I walked out in the woods on 324 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: just a little jaunt. I left him kind of by 325 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: the four wheeler, and I said, hey, I'll be back 326 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: in five minutes. I went for a little walk and 327 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: jumped up. I don't know what they were doing, but 328 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: it was three coyote pups that looked like nine week 329 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: old puppies, you know, they probably weighed eight or nine 330 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: pounds maybe, and they took off running. Well, I just 331 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 1: by instinct just started chasing them. I ended up catching 332 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: one of those suckers. To make a long story short, 333 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: I was chasing him, and uh, you know, they just 334 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: split off one by one. I was chasing three, and 335 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: then one would split off, and then I was chasing two, 336 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: and then one split off, and then I picked one 337 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: to keep chasing. And I was running and I remember 338 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: I started running down this drainage. This Kyle was hopping 339 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: from rock to rock, and I fell man my and 340 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: got in front of my feet and I took a 341 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: spill harder than I've ever taken a spill. As I'm falling, 342 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out what bone I'm gonna break. 343 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: I hit the ground. But what I was most disappointed 344 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: about was I knew that Kyle was getting away from me. Well, 345 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: when I hit the ground and realized I wasn't hurt, 346 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: I lifted up my head and that Kyle Pup had 347 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: laid up in a ball about four ft in front 348 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: of me. I guess he saw me like coming over 349 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: him and his instinct was to fall up. Well, he 350 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: sees me raise up my head and look at him, 351 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: and he takes off running again. So I jump up 352 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: and take off running, and he darts in a hole 353 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: and I flip over this rock on top of the hole, 354 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: and he's bawled up right there, and I just reached 355 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: out and grab him by the nape of the neck 356 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: and picked him up, took him home. We tried to 357 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: tame him. He kept biting me. I kept him for 358 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: about four weeks and never could tame him. But if 359 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: I had really wanted to tame him, I could have. 360 00:21:57,800 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: I was just afraid he was gonna hurt one of 361 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,160 Speaker 1: my is, so I turned the sucker loose. I hope 362 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 1: this story somehow aide you in your studies of dogs 363 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: and humans. For sure it does, because one of my 364 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: like weirdest or not weirdest, I would say, but one 365 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: of the biggest hangups I had with the like it's 366 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: called the Pinocchio hypothesis, is adopted because you're trying to 367 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,640 Speaker 1: make it into a real boy or real wolf or whatever, 368 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: real dog. I guess I should say. I always wondered 369 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: do people just stick their hands in wolf dens and 370 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: risk getting their fingers bit off? Or how does that work. 371 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: So there's a there's a theory of domestication called the 372 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: Pinocchio theory. Yeah, so either the mother died and they 373 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: adopt the pups or they just intentionally said, I'm gonna 374 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: make a dog today and like when you know, we're 375 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: gonna keep it as a pet kind of thing. Yeah, 376 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: now that I know this theory, I'm a firm believer 377 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: in it. Serious, I think. I mean, because people that 378 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: are on the landscape, a lot that are in the woods, 379 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: a lot which obviously hunter gathers. I mean, over sure, 380 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: anywhere else to go do you encounter dens and groundborough 381 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: Den's like a wolf would have, are very visible as 382 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: opposed to other types of animals that would have kind 383 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: of vegetation nests as den's you know that are camouflage, 384 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: Like a hole in the ground is not camouflage, and 385 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 1: you know, so I can see and in in prehistoric 386 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: hunters also killed animals from their dens on purpose because 387 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: it was a good ambush spot. I bet somebody like 388 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: saw a fresh wolf did went over there with their 389 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: spear or their adleaddle or their rock or whatever they 390 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 1: had killed a wolf. And then I was like, dang, 391 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: I hear some puffs whimper and reached in there and 392 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,719 Speaker 1: pulled out a few bottom home, threw them to their 393 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: ten year old son and said, hey, let's feed that 394 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: thing tam it. We've just created a whole new theory. David, 395 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: there you go that that's cool. I don't get to 396 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: like work with modern hunters too often, so it's always 397 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: nice to hear of these stories. So the similarities between 398 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: wolves and humans is fascinating. If a wolf that hunts 399 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: in the pack, he's got to be tuned into the 400 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: nuance and obviously primarily nonverbal nuance of the pack numbers, 401 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: because they have this hierarchy and significant social structure inside 402 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: their their pack that enables them the hunt. They have 403 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: alpha male, they have total hierarchy. So that enabled wolves 404 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: to move into a very similar hierarchy that humans had, 405 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: and they would have been able to pick up on 406 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: nonverbal cues like when a human was upset with them, 407 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: when a human was happy with them. They would have 408 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: been able to perceive danger that like this human wants 409 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: to harm me, or this human doesn't, so talk about 410 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: that a little bit. How did our similarities bring us together? 411 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: The biggest one that I've learned recently is that wolves 412 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: kind of have a more monogamous lifestyle then other animals do. 413 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: And it's not that they mate for life with one person. 414 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: They just they rear they're young together. And even if 415 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: humans in the past we're swapping, you know, babysitting duty 416 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: between the different people. The point is we put a 417 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: significant amount of time into raising our young, and wolves 418 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: do the same thing. All species adapt a strategy for 419 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: rearing young. Some have lots of offspring and give little 420 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: to no parental input, like a fish land thousands of eggs. 421 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: In the biology world, this is termed our selection or 422 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: an R adapted species. Remember that the R stands for 423 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: reproduction and lots of reproduction. Other species put significant inputs 424 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: and smaller numbers of offspring, like an elephant, which it's 425 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: calf stays with the mother for three to five years. 426 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: This is called K selection, and K refers to carrying capacity. 427 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: Even though those are two cs, not sure the connection. 428 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: Humans and wool are both K adapted species, meaning that 429 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: we put a lot of parental input into our offspring. 430 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: A wolf pup would respond pretty well to how humans 431 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: obviously were to raise it, and that's why dogs we 432 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: kind of see puppies like babies to us. Now, Uh, 433 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: there's like that hierarchy that they're used to, and they 434 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: feed off of social cues. So if you watched wolves 435 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: hunt or wolves eat, one always eats first. Some have 436 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: to stay back and wait till later. That's something humans 437 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: could replicate in the past, or just all sorts of 438 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: little things like that, and like eye contact as well, 439 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: like you could just be like no and directly raise 440 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: your voice and do it and it we might stay 441 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: back kind of thing, you know. I guess the other 442 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 1: thing too, is that they have built into the structure 443 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: of their biology a desire to submit to something like 444 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: there is a there's a boss, and so I mean 445 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: in the dog human relationship, the human is always the boss, 446 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. Um. And I know there's a lot 447 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: of like debate with like dog training methods, if that's 448 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: like the way to go about it and stuff like that, 449 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 1: but I genuinely think it helped humans and dogs like 450 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: co exist together in the past, whether or not it's 451 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: a good training method or not. You know, talk to 452 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: me about dog eyes. So dogs have what's called or 453 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: all domestic animals have what's called NAT and neatny is 454 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: just accentuated juvenile features. So if you look at a 455 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: baby chimp, we're gonna go, oh wow, it's cute. If 456 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: you look at a baby chipmunk, you can say, oh wow, 457 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: that's cute. But to keep something juvenile and like behaving 458 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 1: not aggressively, uh, when you keep selecting for that trait, 459 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: it's gonna end up looking like that. Obviously, the ancestors 460 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: of cows are gone, but their horns have shrunk. A 461 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: bunch sheep is move on, and then the ibex is 462 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: the goat, all their horns have shrunk. So when you 463 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: do that with dogs, they're kind of snout kind of 464 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: shrinks a little bit. Their teeth get a little smaller, 465 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: and their whole body gets a little smaller, and they 466 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: stay cuter and their eyes have gotten bigger. So what 467 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: that does is we're accentuating is like you and I 468 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: are looking at each other right now, and we have 469 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: this like white sclera in our eyes. We're among the 470 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: only animals to have that that's accentuated as much as 471 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: it is. And then we've brought that out in dogs 472 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: so that we can both make eye contact each other 473 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: and read emotions. So what you're playing is like most 474 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: animals have eyes that are completely colored, Like you look 475 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: at the eye of the deer and it's like exactly brown, 476 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: So you can't pick up nuances of eye movement with 477 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: the white in our eyes. Were able to communicate more 478 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: clearly with our eyes. Is that is that what you're describing? Correct? Yeah, 479 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: and that's incredible. It is pretty cool. Chimps have it, 480 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: Gorillas have it um and not all the time. Their 481 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: iris kind of takes up most of their eye. Like 482 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: if you look like a deer or a horse like 483 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: you just said, because there is white, but it's it's 484 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: underneath the eyelids. You don't see it, like like what 485 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: a horse or a mule. Yeah, we've selected for that 486 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: puppy dog trait and the puppy dog. We didn't do 487 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: that intentionally though, I don't. I don't think so, because 488 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 1: somebody and like you know, the Mesolithic in a cave 489 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: wasn't like I'm gonna make these thing's eyes bigger. But 490 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: it just kind of happens over time because you're selecting 491 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: for that that juvenile behavior. So like if if you 492 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: had a litter of pups, you had six pups and 493 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: there were two of them that you felt a stronger 494 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: connection to and probably the person didn't even realize why 495 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: they had a stronger connection to this dog. They could 496 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: just communicate with this dog better, they had visual things 497 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: that they liked about the dog better. They would lean 498 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: towards nurturing that dog, and the survival of that dog 499 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: would be much more sure. Is that right? So? I 500 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: mean just like they would just over time, overdoing that 501 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: for a thousand generations of dogs, you begin to see 502 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 1: what at one time was nuanced become like a dominant trait, 503 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: which would be like wide around the eyes and eyes 504 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: that looked human exactly. Yeah, you're just accentuating that. That 505 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: is man, Yeah, it is. And have you heard of 506 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: the Siberian fox experiment at all? I have, but let's 507 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: talk about it. So the Siberian fox experiment was started 508 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: by Dmitri bla Yayev. He's a Soviet geneticist and he 509 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: wanted to breed Russian silver foxes and make them a 510 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: little more docile so they were easier to get their 511 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: furs from. I think one story said he was it 512 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: was for the Soviet army. I think another he just 513 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: was doing research, But it doesn't matter. The point is 514 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: he was breeding the foxes to get them to be 515 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: easier to you know, a fur farm. And that's kind 516 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: of where the debate comes if it's a good or 517 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: bad thing to do it from the beginning, But the 518 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: point is he would stick his hand in the cage 519 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: with a glove on and see which foxes were aggressive, 520 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: and if they bit the glove or hissed him, he 521 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: considered them aggressive. And if he put his hand in 522 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: there and they just kind of coward or didn't really 523 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: react to it negatively, he would call them a you know, 524 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: domestic or good. And he kept breeding those with each 525 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: other and breeding the aggressive ones with each other, and 526 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: the aggressive ones became very aggressive and had this crazy 527 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: adrenaline response, but the ones that weren't aggressive ended up 528 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: getting floppy ears, their tails started the wag, they had 529 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: spotted coats, and they had increased eye contact with people. 530 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: So in a sense, he made a domestic fox, which 531 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: is why there's a big movement of buying those now. 532 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: But the point with that would be that you know, 533 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: he did it very quickly in fifteen generations. I think 534 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: it's thirteen or fifteen. You can make something domestic really quickly, 535 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: and you can it definitely changes its features. So they 536 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: had the bigger eyes, they had all that kind of 537 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: So there's something genetically with it. Whether people in the 538 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: past were doing that from the get go and did 539 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: it in fifteen generations, I doubt it probably took thousands 540 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: of years. But the point, as you can get a 541 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: dog to understand this more, you'll need to understand domestication syndrome, 542 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: which is well accepted in the biology world, and it 543 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: describes how domestic animals look and act different than their 544 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: wild counterparts in consistent ways. And domesticated mammals it consistently 545 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: produces smaller brains, depigmentation or variance in color, and increased 546 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: tameness as a result of hormone changes that influence how 547 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: the animals respond to fear and stress. Oddly, in many animals, 548 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: including dogs, domestication usually produces floppy ears. The effects of 549 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: human selection bias on what once a wild animal was 550 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: is fascinating. Think of this way, a prehistoric human who 551 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: would have been basically just like us in consciousness, emotions, 552 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: and his drive for a better life bred as dogs 553 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: in a similar way. Say to like a squirrel dog breeder, 554 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: He'd say, I like the way that that one does 555 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: its job, so I think I'll breed him to that 556 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 1: one that does this good job too. Earnie On it 557 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: probably wasn't that straightforward, but simply the dogs that did 558 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: the work more naturally were the ones that got fed, 559 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: were nurtured and survived, so they naturally bread do that 560 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 1: for a long period of time, and you get this 561 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: human selection bias coming up very strongly in these dogs. 562 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: The one thing that has been constant and the human 563 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: archaeological record is that where you find humans, you find dogs. 564 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: And we have had this animal with us side by side, 565 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: and scientists would call it coevolution. We have certainly changed 566 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: dogs from wolves to what we see today and all 567 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: the specific breeds of dogs. The question that I have 568 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: that is not answered for me yet is how have 569 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: dogs changed us? And how much do dogs in our 570 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: use and working with dogs actually define our humanity? And 571 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: I want I want to hear your thoughts on that, 572 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: because what we're seeing in some parts of where the 573 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: dog and human world overlap is we're trying to write 574 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: a new set of rules for how humans can use dogs. 575 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: And I want to hear your commentary on that. How 576 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: have dogs changed us? Yeah? Are you familiar with the 577 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: term behavioral ecology, describe that for me sure. So it 578 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: is the idea that organisms operate in a way to 579 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: get the most bang for their buck. In a sense, 580 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: you want to spend the least amount of calories to 581 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: get the most amount of calories back. So obviously hunting 582 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 1: with at ladles and chasing some thing is a lot 583 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: more calorie expensive than it is to shoot some of 584 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: the rival from further away. That being said, human behavioral 585 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: ecology is part of the archaeology that I study. You 586 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,359 Speaker 1: can look at sites and how they form based on this, 587 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,919 Speaker 1: and you can try to piece together what humans were doing, 588 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: like why they have so much food here there? With 589 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: that dogs having them with you, you would think, why 590 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: would a hunter gatherer want to waste their time feeding 591 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: another organism? Why spend this time doing that? For hundreds 592 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: of thousands of years, we don't see dogs, and then 593 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, these things start appearing at sites, 594 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: and it would just make no sense to like feed 595 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: something extra. So there's a benefit that we get from them. 596 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: And since dogs can kind of just eat the scraps 597 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: that we have, you don't have to feed them excessive 598 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: amounts of food. Or they'll just eat our refuse around 599 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: the site. We can spend less effort hunting because you 600 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: have the extra set of eyes, the extra set of ears, 601 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: and their nose, and they can do a lot of 602 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: the work for us, so they get a lot our 603 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 1: calories back for us than we have to give to them. 604 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: So it's definitely increased our population in a sense. That's 605 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: increased there like hunting ability, and it's increased our our 606 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: range because not only do you have something that can 607 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: help you hunt more efficiently, you also have something that 608 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: when you tie it up outside your camp at night, 609 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: you're not gonna get lions, you're not gonna get panthers, 610 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: you're not gonna get Hyena's coming to mess with you 611 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: at night. You've made its safe. Yeah, And I would 612 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: say agriculture has been the most significant change in our 613 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: our technological history, uh, you know, because you can mass 614 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: produce and you can make cities and things like that. 615 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: But before that, right before it came dogs, and I 616 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 1: think that definitely helped get us to that point. Here's 617 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,439 Speaker 1: an interesting thought. Have you ever taken note of how 618 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: ill equipped humans seem to be in the natural world. 619 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: We don't have thick hair, big claws or teeth. We 620 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: don't have a great sense of smell, we can't run 621 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: very fast, and we're weak compared to other animals are 622 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: side eyes. However, we're the most biologically successful mammal in 623 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: this epic of planet Earth. Do we owe a big 624 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: part of our current existence to dogs? Everywhere that we're weak, 625 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: they're strong. If you look at human existence as a whole, 626 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: every section of that existence is critical to the next. 627 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: And there was a time when we were quite literally 628 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: going one on one with nature. We were at the 629 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: mercy of giant, fast predators, extreme temperatures, and we lived 630 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: off the land. The last three hundred years of human existence, 631 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 1: where we've had modern conveniences is a new human experience 632 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: comparable to a single page in a book. Is thick 633 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: is a jacked up mudding truck in Mississippi. My point 634 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: is this, we survived and thrived in our hunter gathered 635 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: past in a big part because of dogs, not just 636 00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: any dogs, but hunting dogs. The story of the dog 637 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 1: is synonymous with the story of mankind. And that really 638 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 1: brings me to like why I wanted to talk to you, Because, 639 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, some people and ideas and philosophies 640 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: currently today are kind of trying to change the rules 641 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 1: about how humans used dogs, specifically inside of using hunting dogs, 642 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: which is the very foundation of the reason we even 643 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: have domestic dogs to begin with, the only reason you 644 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: have a chihuahua, the only reason you have a German 645 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: Shepherd in your backyard is because of hunting. And then 646 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: now in hunting space, the most persecuted hunting in North 647 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,560 Speaker 1: America is big game hunting with dogs, particularly bears, mountain lions, 648 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: and and there's lots of different reasons why people see that. 649 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: They think it's a relic of the past. They think 650 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 1: it's bar barrack. Some people would say that it's not 651 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 1: relevant to modern times. What are your thoughts on that. 652 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: I think we have dogs for this reason, that's what 653 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: they're good at. And obviously, like you're a bear hunter, 654 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: you have dogs that are very good at hunting bear. 655 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: I'd imagine I talked to someone else recently about that 656 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: same thing, and you're right, Like a German shepherd is 657 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: a guard dog, and it's a it's a shepherd, and 658 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: like it can do that behavior as a pet in 659 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: a way, like that's not its only job, but it 660 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: can do it a two hours, just a toy dog essentially. 661 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: But then you have dogs like coon hounds and other hounds, 662 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: and you know, like hunting dogs that are designed and 663 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: bred for that, and it's doing them a disservice to 664 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: not do that behavior, and that's where you get aggression issues, 665 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 1: and that's where you get dogs that are always in shelters. 666 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 1: I agree, I think there should be a way for 667 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: dogs to do that kind of thing, and hopefully ethically. 668 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,359 Speaker 1: But if they if a bear hunting dog that bear 669 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,479 Speaker 1: hunting in an ethical manner, you know what I feel 670 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 1: like is happening, Like at the very core of the 671 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: argument that dogs should no longer be used for hunting 672 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: in the way that they have for the last and 673 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: let's be generous and say fourteen thousand years humans have 674 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: used dogs for hunting, maybe twenty, I would make an 675 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 1: argument that to take that away from from me and 676 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 1: my children would be to strip away a part of 677 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: our history that's potentially even coded into our d n 678 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 1: A because we have been with dogs for so long, 679 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 1: just like we've changed them, there's kind of incalculable ways 680 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: that they have changed us in this connection. I read 681 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: where they've done studies on dogs and humans that when 682 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: a human engages with a dog, there's oxytocin that is released, 683 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: which is a chemical the brain that humans crave and love. 684 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 1: We don't even most people aren't even aware of it. 685 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: We crave it and love it, and it gives us 686 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: a sensation of safety and pleasure. And the same chemical 687 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: is released in a dog when a human engages with 688 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: it and pets it. And so it's like this ancient, 689 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: irrational connection. And two, simply for the sake of whatever 690 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: reason that people would have to say, that's no longer relevant. 691 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,879 Speaker 1: I feel like it's stripping away a part of our 692 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: humanity and I'm not cool that. David. Yeah, I grew 693 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: up in the Greater New York area and didn't live 694 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,319 Speaker 1: out West, didn't get to experience the wilderness in a way. 695 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: So I grew up watching stuff like this and being like, 696 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: why would they do that? Like that, don't do that 697 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 1: to the animal, Like would hurt it? The cougar is 698 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: gonna die scared, the bear is gonna die terrified, you know. 699 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: But I moved out West for grad school, ended up 700 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: hunting pronghorn. My friends got to gut it with still tools. 701 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: That was really fun, and I got to see some 702 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: dogs hunt at one point. I've never done it myself, 703 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: but you're right in a sense, and like especially studying 704 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: this at the same time, I was just fascinated by 705 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 1: it because what I'm studying in the past is people 706 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: hunting with dogs. That's just the gist of it. And 707 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: I can't understand that unless I watch dogs hunt now, 708 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: or at least learn about it from people like you. 709 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: And I agree. I think it's a practice that should 710 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 1: be kept because it is an integral part of our 711 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: relationship um And obviously dogs sniffing dogs being centuries dogs 712 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,439 Speaker 1: that can stay, why couldn't that stay? And I would 713 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 1: make the argument too that the quality of life that 714 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,840 Speaker 1: my squirrel dogs have and my coon dogs have, I 715 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:49,920 Speaker 1: would say, is probably far above the quality of life 716 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: that a dog has that lives indoors, that is never 717 00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: allowed to free range across the landscape, dog that has 718 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: been genetically altered from its original state in such a 719 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: way that it can't really function. Like a lot of 720 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: those specific breeds that we have today would not have 721 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,919 Speaker 1: survived in the wild there they were bred to be 722 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: for an aesthetic or for a certain, very highly specific job. 723 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 1: And hunting dogs are much more in tune with their 724 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,719 Speaker 1: original design than just like your lap dog. I mean, 725 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: because you know, like my hounds, they're far from a wolf, 726 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: but they're way closer to a wolf than a chihuahua. 727 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: So that's where I have a problem with someone that 728 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,880 Speaker 1: has a chihuahua telling me not to bear hunt with 729 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: my dogs. A philosophical problem with that idea. You know, 730 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: I do have empathy for people that may not understand 731 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,240 Speaker 1: hunting with dogs. So it's it's not people that were against, 732 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 1: it's it's it's really lack of information, lack of understanding. 733 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,919 Speaker 1: Because for someone that doesn't have any information that sees 734 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: some portrayal of a bunch of hillbillies turn and loose 735 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: their dogs to go kill a bear, that is very 736 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: very easy to portray in a negative way to someone 737 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: without information. Hill Billy bros. I've got to clarify that 738 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: the word hill billy is a term of endearment to 739 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: me and not a jab carry on. It takes a 740 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: lot of steps of information and pursuit of understanding the 741 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: position of the human that's doing that to actually come 742 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: to a place where you could go from zero understanding 743 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,319 Speaker 1: to enough understanding to go, Yeah, I get it, Yeah, 744 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: I get why they do that. So we are up 745 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 1: against a big mountain that is hard to climb. Because 746 00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: it's really easy to put up a billboard in any 747 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: place and say one liner, you know, this is a 748 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: bad thing. It's much harder to portray something as deeply human. 749 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: Also a very huge component of scientific wildlife management that 750 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: actually helps the species that we're hunting thrive. I mean, 751 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: that's that's the biggest thing, David, of our position as 752 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: hunters is. Yeah, we're not just wanting to have fun 753 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: with our dogs. That's part of it, and yes, that 754 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 1: is why we do it. But it's a beautiful stone 755 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 1: that kills two birds with one chunk because we get 756 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:32,839 Speaker 1: to have this amazing interaction with our animals and a 757 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: lifestyle that's built around them, and we also get to 758 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: be key contributors to the success of the species that 759 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: we're hunting. I mean, that's why North American hunting is 760 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: just like this beautiful thing, and it has been portrayed 761 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,799 Speaker 1: in such a way that many people wouldn't describe it 762 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,839 Speaker 1: or understand it that way. And and dogs are one 763 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: of the most contentious parts of it. And so I 764 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 1: hope that are standing. Kind of the deep human history 765 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: with dogs, the original way that we used them, the 766 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: original design of how we use them, can help people 767 00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 1: bridge the gap between that and now when they see 768 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: me with my coon dogs and squirrel dogs and bear dogs. 769 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,920 Speaker 1: Because I think it's an awesome thing. I think it 770 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: it makes me more human to turn loose my dogs 771 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: in the woods and interact with them. I'm raccoon hunting 772 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 1: with my daughter River using our American plot hounds. We 773 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: free cast the dogs into the darkness, meaning we've just 774 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,000 Speaker 1: turned them loose with GPS collars on so we can 775 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 1: keep track of them, and they've gone out and found 776 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 1: the fresh scent of a raccoon. Hopefully they'll trail the 777 00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 1: scent of the critter until it runs up a treat 778 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: where they'll tree it, meaning they'll bark at the base 779 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: of the tree and wait for us to come to them. 780 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,280 Speaker 1: Following hounds that you've trained is a rare human pleasure, 781 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: tickling ancient mechanisms inside of me that are beyond reason, 782 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:16,279 Speaker 1: and our hunting serves an important role in wildlife management. 783 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:25,799 Speaker 1: We're in for a treat, all right, River, you're right dogs, 784 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 1: All right, River, We're gonna we're gonna turn these dogs 785 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:35,080 Speaker 1: out by this pond. It's been raining, but I figured 786 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,239 Speaker 1: by now the coons have had a little time to stir. 787 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: Let's just get him, all right, and you ready, Scooter, 788 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: you're ready? Firm? Ah, you're ready. We'll get him. Did firm? 789 00:47:52,920 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: Just part? I do? True? It sounds like it. It 790 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: sounds like it. Man, it's about to rain. Are they 791 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: are they moving? Let's just walk out here? Are they moving? Man? 792 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,919 Speaker 1: If they treat one tonight, I'm gonna be pretty proud 793 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:32,399 Speaker 1: of not ideal conditions? Yeah, oh yeah, good lords. Talk 794 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:36,839 Speaker 1: to him now, talk to I don't know we're gonna 795 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,040 Speaker 1: find him in this mess, but I think he's in here. 796 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: What do you think? It's amazing what these dogs can do. 797 00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 1: We have never had any clue that coon was around here. 798 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,880 Speaker 1: Talk to him, talk to him. Yeah, River, I've been 799 00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: dragging you around since you could walk. Coon hunting ever 800 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: think that this is ridiculous and kind of irrational? How 801 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: much we love our dogs? Of course not, It's totally right, 802 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,919 Speaker 1: totally what you think? So so convinced. You know, most 803 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 1: people are home watching Netflix right now, and we're out 804 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,360 Speaker 1: here wandering around the ticks and chiggers and getting wet 805 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,440 Speaker 1: the river. What do you what do you like about 806 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: this coon hun I like, like all of it. I 807 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,520 Speaker 1: like it's the only I think it's the only t 808 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: typeting we do that's at night, and so it's cool 809 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: to be out here at night. And then, I mean, 810 00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: it was so fun training these dogs. I mean I 811 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: remember when we were I was like twelve years old 812 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,040 Speaker 1: and training Fern, and it was like the coolest thing 813 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: in the world. And it's so cool now that she'll go, 814 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: she'll go trained by yourself, and that we taught her 815 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: how to do that. So it's awesome to see see that. 816 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: And then it's also the only kind of hand you 817 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,560 Speaker 1: can talk through. So you can't have to sit still. 818 00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 1: You don't have to. You can people. Yeah, you can 819 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,279 Speaker 1: bring you bring your friends, and bring your dogs. If 820 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: your dogs are your friends, and your dogs are your 821 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: best friends, good boys, by good, all right, he's in 822 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 1: the whole way. I'm gonna find him. We're gonna find him. 823 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:29,480 Speaker 1: Let's go home. My grandfather's bird dogs have long since passed, 824 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,120 Speaker 1: but his love of working and hunting dogs is strongly 825 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: alive inside of me today and every time I turn 826 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: loose my coon hounds, or I see my squirrel dogs 827 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 1: elated to tree. A squirrel sense exactly what he did 828 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: and what ancient humans of the past did too, A 829 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:52,440 Speaker 1: deep and hard to explain fascination and partnering with the 830 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:57,560 Speaker 1: dog to do work and acquire wild protein. I'm confident 831 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: that our connection to dogs and specific lead to hunting dogs, 832 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,680 Speaker 1: is an important cog in the robust definition of what 833 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: it means to be human. You can follow my guests 834 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:18,000 Speaker 1: David ian How at David ian How dot com. You 835 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,520 Speaker 1: can also follow him on YouTube and Instagram at Ethno 836 00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: Sinology that's e t h n O se y n 837 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,239 Speaker 1: O l o g y ethno sinology, which is the 838 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,360 Speaker 1: study of dogs and humans. Check out David I and 839 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:36,520 Speaker 1: How