WEBVTT - #252 Jason Flom with Allan Woodhouse and Brian Anderson 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.680 On Tuesday, July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, a local chef 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.720 and father of two, Ting Fong Chan, walked home from 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.960 his night shift in Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada at around six am. 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:16.759 His body was found beaten and stabbed death near a 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.599 construction site. An eyewitness saw the assailants through the darkness 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:23.000 and described the group as four or five men with 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:26.000 long hair. The police asked if the assailants may have 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.560 been indigenous. The eyewitness couldn't say either way without a 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:33.680 definitive answer, investigators began campassing the local indigenous population, and 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:36.200 a man named Adam Woodhouse told them about a recent 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.880 gathering at his home attended by Clarence and Russell Woodhouse 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.519 as well as their cousin Brian Anderson. However, this gathering 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.680 happened on Thursday night, not on Monday into Tuesday, the 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.080 night of the crime. Despite the confusion over the date, 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.840 as well as the uncertainty over the assailants ethnicity, Clarence 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:57.920 and Russell Woodhouse, Brian Anderson, as well as their younger 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.360 friend Allan Woodhouse underwent a series of coercive and in 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:06.479 some cases, violent interrogations, resulting in four false confessions written 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.760 in a language in which none of them were entirely fluent. 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.319 The trial consisted of the presentation of these alleged confessions 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:19.399 against four matching recantations, as well as alibi witnesses and 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:24.760 accusations of police misconduct and brutality. Fifty years later, Brian 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.880 Anderson and Alan Woodhouse share their harrowing story and the 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:46.640 struggle to clear their names. This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.520 back to wrongful Conviction. This is an episode it's going 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.960 to take everyone who listens on a journey, not just 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.320 far away because this took place in the Great White North, 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:00.680 but also to a place of disbelief for how the system, 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.240 in this case, the system in Canada, can do what 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.800 it does to innocent civilians. Let me introduce our guests 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.320 and then we'll explain more about the case. With us, 0:02:11.320 --> 0:02:15.800 we have two wrongfully convicted men. First of all, Brian Anderson, 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.120 Welcome to wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you're here under the services, 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.440 but I'm happy you're here. Thank you and with us 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.720 as well as Alan Woodhouse. So grateful for you being 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:26.400 here as well. 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.200 Thank you very much for having me here today. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:33.200 And joining us. Is an incredible woman named bob and Sody. 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.320 Bobbin is the attorney of record for these men. She 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.200 was the legal director at Innocence Canada at the time 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:43.120 that she got involved with this case, and she's currently 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:45.679 got one of the most amazing and interesting jobs, I 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.920 think in the entire world of criminal justice. She is 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.040 the intake director at the Innocence Project of New York. 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.320 So Bobin, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:57.720 Thanks so much for having us, Jason. 0:02:57.919 --> 0:02:58.320 So. 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.360 Bobn I almost feel like I want to let you 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:06.520 set the stage here. I mean, this case is so nuts. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:10.320 It involves lies from people in positions of power, false confessions. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:12.320 At least one of the men didn't even speak the 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.320 language of the confession that he was signing, that he 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.200 didn't even know was a confession, Jason. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.240 For me, this was one of the first cases I 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.640 worked on in my role as legal director at Innocence Canada, 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.960 and it's one of those cases that right off the 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:27.919 batch you know that something isn't right. 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:28.360 You know. 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.480 My co counsel, Jerome Kennedy has always put it best. 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:35.440 We started off knowing that this was a nineteen seventy 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:40.120 three case. It involved the Winnipeg Police service, four young 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.360 Indigenous men and George Dangerfield. And as far as innocence 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:48.000 Canada was concerned, that is a recipe for wrongful conviction. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.400 And George Dangerfield just what a name for a guy 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.120 who has the dubious distinction of being the Crown prosecutor 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:59.240 who is responsible for the most wrongful convictions in Canadian history. 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.080 And he was unfortunately the top prosecutor in Manitoba, Canada 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.520 for thirty years. And just to paint a picture of 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:10.080 the guys who ended up getting caught in this nightmare, 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.400 Brian Anderson, who's with us today at seventh grade education 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.719 and no knowledge of the criminal legal system. He grew 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.919 up on the Fairford Indian Reserve between Lake Manitoba and 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.120 Lake Saint Mark, about two hundred and thirty kilometers or 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.560 one hundred and forty three miles north of Winnipeg. The 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.360 eldest had ten children. At eighteen, he moved to Winnipeg 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.520 to work and live with his grandparents. And his first 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.240 language was not English. He barely spoke English at all. 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.720 His first language was Ojibwe Salto. And he had no 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:38.839 criminal record whatsoever. This is important, that's important to know. 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:41.159 But it turned out not to matter in this case. 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.640 So Brian, tell me about your life growing up. Did 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.520 you have a happy childhood? Yes? 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.200 I did? I think I did. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.320 You don't know anything about life at that age. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.480 So right, you're a kid, I mean, let's face it. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:58.400 As a teenager you just said yeah, exactly, figuring it 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.279 out just like anybody else. And Alan, what about for you? 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:05.240 You lived on the Fairport Indian Reserve as well, with 0:05:05.400 --> 0:05:07.360 English as a second language. You had a ninth grade 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.120 education there. You were seventeen years old, but also with 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.599 no criminal record, and moved to Winnipeg two months before 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:17.279 this awful crime happened. So Alan, what was your life 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.039 like growing up in those times? 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.120 From what you can remember, Well, my childhost is pretty rugged, 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.240 so to speak, of eight brothers and two sisters, as 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.760 I was a lot of people. Brian's younger brother I 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.400 have and I used to be my handout buddy. We're 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.760 up at the same age. Ban were a bit of wolder, 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.880 so he hung out with you a wolder crowd. The 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:38.920 only reason I was in Winnipeg is because to look 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.560 for work. There's no work in a reserve, of course, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.680 because I was over sixteen, so I just moved to 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:48.719 Winnipeg about a couple of months when I got arrested. 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:51.320 Right and before you were arrested, the police picked up 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.120 Clarence Woodhouse, followed by Russell Woodhouse, then you Alan Woodhouse, 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.520 and lastly Brian Anderson. And the whole thing started with 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.800 a statement from Woodhouse. First of all, that's a lot 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.480 of woodhouses. So just to keep things straight for our audience. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.000 From what I gather, Woodhouse must be a common name, Brian, 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:10.480 Are any of you guys related? 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:15.160 Yes, I am. They are my cousins, which is the Woodhouses. 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:18.560 Clarence and Russell, we had the same grandfather. We knew 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.440 each other right from the little kids. 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.800 I'm not related to idiotom actually not even Adam Mudos. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.039 So Clarence and Russell were related to you, Brian. But 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.440 Adam and Allen aren't related to any of you guys, right, yes, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:35.599 so the crime itself. July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, forty 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:37.960 zho men in ting Pong Chan was beaten and stabbed 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.159 to death near a downtown construction site in Manitoba, which 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:43.680 is Winnipeg. Mister Chan was a father of two and 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:46.039 a chef at a restaurant called The Beachcomber. He was 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.440 walking home from the night shift and his body was 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:54.720 found at six am on the seventeenth. So then comes 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.680 this ridiculous quote unquote investigation. 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:02.080 For the first couple of days after Chan's body was found, 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.200 no investigation occurred. Essentially, they were doing a scan of 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.320 the neighborhood and they came across a witness named Daisy 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.600 Towel and Daisy, what's interesting about her is she didn't 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.280 really see much at all. What she claims to have 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.559 seen under the light of a lamppost in the middle 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.720 of the night without her glasses, and she indicated that 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:28.400 she had very poor vision was the outline of four 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:32.160 or five individuals that had long hair, And when the 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.400 officers put it to her whether she thought they were indigenous, 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.080 she said, well, yes, they could be. And you know, 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.880 the important point here is this was the seventies, and 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.640 so I'm presuming a lot of people had long hair. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:46.920 I have fond memories of that era. I mean, long hair, 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.880 great music, and this witness could have easily and vaguely 0:07:51.920 --> 0:07:54.680 stuck me into this group as well. I mean I 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.000 fit that much at the description. That's the only description 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.120 they had. So it's important to note that the police 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.600 offered this blurry cited eyewitness the suggestion that the assailants 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.800 were Indigenous, not the other way around. And Alan, I 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.600 know you eventually became a jail house lawyer. Does it 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.840 strike you as business as usual for the police in 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.040 that era with in doubt, just take an indigenous guy, right, 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:17.520 just start targeting Indigenous people. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.280 Oh yeah, I mean I think goes wrong right away. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.400 It's Native people even in the reserve. You know, something 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.880 happened outside the reserves. There's better community out there, right 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:30.600 there's there's been Native people. There'd be police driving around 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.920 looking for so and sorry though, that's the reality of it. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:39.200 Unfortunately, the police ended up canvassing the neighborhood on the 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:44.000 lookout essentially for young Indigenous men. And that's how a 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.800 few days later they came upon Adam Woodhouse's house and 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.960 spoke to him. They also spoke to his common law 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:54.400 partner and his common law partner's daughter. And what I 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:57.600 will say is English wasn't even the first language of 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.319 these witnesses. So Adam was also someone who was struggling 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.280 to understand this context, wasn't provided an interpreter, and was 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:08.640 participating and so when they spoke to Adam on July 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:11.920 twenty second, he said, well, yes, on the night of 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.360 the murderer, I had a group of young Indigenous men 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.640 with me, including Brian Anderson, Clarence Woodhouse and Russell Woodhouse. 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.959 And he distinctly didn't mention Alan. And what's interesting about 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:28.000 the fact that he said that is almost immediately following 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.760 his common law partner and his common law partner's daughter 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.320 said yes, these young men were at our house, but 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:40.120 that actually occurred Thursday and not on the night in question. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.120 And the reason that's interesting is a lot of the 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:47.560 information that Adam was recalling from the evening actually related 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.240 to things that happened on Thursday. So, for example, he 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.480 referenced receiving his check he usually receives that on a 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.040 Thursday night. He referenced using that check in order to 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.720 buy beer again as a result of what happened on 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:05.400 Thursday night. But essentially, the police, ignoring what you know 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:09.040 his common law partner and her daughter said, decided to 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.199 venture out. And this is when this web began to weave, 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.720 and within twenty four hours they managed to get you 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:23.640 alleged confessions from Clarence Woodhouse, Russell Woodhouse, Allan Woodhouse and 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:24.599 Brian Anderson. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:29.840 Wow, so no, I mean they didn't even pretend to 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:34.160 do a real investigation, just the assumption by the police 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.679 that the assailants were indigenous. And Adam Woodhouse told them 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.120 about gathering at his home with Clarence Russell and Brian, 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:44.079 nothing about a murder or any conspiracy to commit murder 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.840 or any criminal activity at all. And it even turned 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.720 out to be the wrong night entirely. Monday into Tuesday 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.360 was when it happened. This was Thursday, but that didn't matter. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.480 And now the interrogations and false confessions began in a 0:10:58.600 --> 0:10:59.920 language you guys didn't even. 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.960 Under I think a really important part of this is 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:07.200 understanding the sequence of the confessions, just to understand how 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.720 they utilized classic red technique despite the fact that everything 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.080 pointed against them. So yes, all four confessions, and this 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:19.079 is important, all four of the confessions that these boys 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.800 are alleged to have made start off with the exact 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.240 same sentence. All four of them say, on Monday night, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:30.280 I was and when I read that, I knew that 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:33.679 something was amiss. We have four men who are alleged 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.280 to have written these confessions in separate rooms, separate circumstances, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.800 varying understanding of English, and yet all of their statements 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:46.080 start the exact same way. And so that's when I 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:49.760 delved into the actual sequence, like how did they obtain them? 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.960 And what I saw was classic retechnique. 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:53.160 You know. 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.240 They started off with Clarence. They took him to the scene, 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.040 brought him back to the station, They asked him to 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.760 mark up the body and where it was that he 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:05.760 had attacked, you know, ting fong Chen, immediately assuming that 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:10.320 he was the person responsible. Ultimately, this allegedly led to 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.280 his confession. And what's interesting about the confession is it's 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.600 a partial confession and the only person that's mentioned in 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.400 it is Russell. Then they go to Russell and they 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.520 go look at this confession that Clarence gave you. And 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:28.200 what's interesting about that is that Russell didn't even have 0:12:28.760 --> 0:12:31.720 enough of an understanding of the English language to be 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:36.040 able to read the confession that Clarence apparently made. So 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:40.480 they brought Clarence into the room with Russell to read 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.520 to his brother this confession he's alleged to have made. 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:48.320 And so Russell apparently makes the confession same thing on 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.040 Monday night, I was, and so not only does he 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:55.760 now mention Clarence himself, but he also references Alan, and 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.240 so that is how Alan is brought into the story, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:03.320 and so then Alan is arrested. He is also shown 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:07.040 the confession that now Clarence has made and subsequently Russell 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:11.000 have made. And what's interesting about Alan is he was 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:16.199 subjected to physical abuse because he refused to make this confession. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:18.760 That night, in that particular, when I got picked up, 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.120 you know, there was a knock on the door, and 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.920 there's two people standing there in suits. I guess you 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:23.920 call them planes closed. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:24.120 Now. 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.480 He asked me what my name was, So I told 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.679 them who I was. So I said, sorry, grand them 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.400 my wrist. You're the one we're looking for it. So 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.160 I said, way wait, I said, what's going on? I 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.840 want to talk to you. I went downstairs with and 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.240 Mark carr on downstairs and they took me to the 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.760 police station. We were the police. I asked him what 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.600 its this about it? He said murder? I said murder. 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.559 I said, maybe they had found a dead body and 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.920 they wanted me to go and recognize some of the 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.320 body or see what I mean. When we got to 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:52.160 the police station and they said Okay, where were you 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.400 on Tuesday night? So I tood, not hoom. Who else 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.839 was there? There's nobody there. It's just me. My mother 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.560 and I lived there, just had that little apartment, and 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.520 my mother well she went out a lot, she drank 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.160 a lot. But anyway, so I told him I was 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.600 at home and they said, oh, there's nobody there, said, 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.520 I know, you weren't there. You were at Adams Woodha Streets. 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:14.480 I said, no, I wasn't there. I was there on Thursday. Yeah. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:16.600 They went back and forth for a while and they 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:21.240 got angrier and angrier, and they started getting physical. I 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.200 mean they were really rough. I mean they were they're 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:26.440 hitting me. I mean, I was all bloody. So after 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.000 four hours they rode up the statement, told me to 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.000 sign it and then you can go, said, So I 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.680 signed it, I said, After they signed, their hand covered 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.160 me ultimately. 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.880 Again. Interesting, his confession starts off with on Monday night 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.359 I was and the variation there was. Now this confession 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:50.200 includes Clarence, it includes Russell, it includes Alan, and there 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:54.080 is the first reference to Brian Anderson. And so then 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.120 they go to Brian and they speak to him, and 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.520 they take Brian to the scene. They show him alleged 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.560 weapons that were utilized, you know, and they show him 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:07.920 the confessions of the other three points. Like on Monday night, I. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.000 Was on the twenty third, I got picked up for murder. 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.120 Like I wasn't even a suspect. I was charged already. 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:19.360 They got me to sign a piece of paper, which 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.440 I did, and I didn't know that was the confession 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.479 that supposedly I had made. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.200 The idea that you were signing a piece of paper 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:29.640 in a language you didn't speak with nobody there to 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.080 guide you or help you or advise you. I read 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:34.920 somewhere that you had thought that it might have been 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.440 just something related to your possessions that they were keeping 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:41.400 on storage for you while they arrested you. Is that accurate. 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:42.320 Yes. 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.560 What they do is they make you empty your pockets 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.280 and that they put stuff aside and you have to 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.920 sign for them. And that's what I thought it was. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.040 That's how crooked they were, you know, they didn't care 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:58.720 just because they had these witnesses they were calling them. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:01.040 That's where they based all this stuff from. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:04.120 And so at the end of the day, as a 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.520 result of this sort of linear sequential experience, now all 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:13.000 four boys are alleged to have participated. The statements that 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.520 start very much the same build on each other. So 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:19.920 first you have just Clarence, then you have Clarence and Russell, 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.560 then you have Clarence Russell and Alan, and finally the 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:29.160 final statement Clarence Russell, Alan and Brian have participated. And 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.840 so essentially you have each of the young men pointing 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.960 the finger at each other and weaving this web for the. 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:43.600 Police actually feels a little bit like a Canadian version 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.920 of New York City's own horror show known as The 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.000 Central Park Five, currently known as Exonerated five because they 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:55.520 use some of the same techniques differently, but you know, 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.960 using everybody against each other and the physical abuse. And 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.160 it's very important for our audience to know that in 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.479 twenty nine percent of the DNA exonerations, the person who 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:09.399 was proven with absolute certainty scientific certainty to be innocent 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:13.280 confessed to the crime they didn't commit. Just like in 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.000 this case, Bobin, what about physical or forensic evidence? Did 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.439 they collect any, did they examine it? Was there any? 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:22.239 Did they even make a show out of trying to 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:23.080 solve this case? 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:28.239 So that is where this case gets interesting, Jason. They 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.879 actually did collect a lot of forensic evidence. The Winnipeg 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:37.159 Police Service collected fiber analysis here microscopy, So there was 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.680 three hairs that were grasped in Ting Fong Chan's hands. 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:46.119 They had fingerprints, they collected clothing, they undertook presumptive blood tests, 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:49.399 there was a series of knives that were collected, and 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:53.720 essentially they used a number of different you know, and 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.120 I used air quote sciences, sciences that have since been 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:02.159 dubbed junk science to these things. But what's amazing about 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.280 this case is Brian Anderson, Alan Woodhouse and the other 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.439 two co accused were excluded from all of them. So 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.720 they engaged in this efforts to try and get something 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:19.439 beyond the confession undertaking these sciences, again air quotes, that 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.560 have contributed to a number of wrongful convictions, but in 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:27.200 this instance, remarkably, these four men were excluded. 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:33.280 So even when they were using these super subjective, absolute 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:37.120 junk sciences that are very useful for when you want 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.520 to conjure up corroborating evidence for a false confession or 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.160 a misidentification or a jail house snitch testimony, even when 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.400 they tried to cheat, they failed, where so many other 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.800 unscrupulous prosecutors and law enforcement officials have succeeded time and 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.000 time again. So I mean, I'm sure that there are 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.480 a number of people in the audience scratching their heads 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.920 as I'm doing right now and saying, wait, I thought 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:02.960 she said they were excluded. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:07.480 That's the weirdest thing about this case. So in every 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:11.160 other case I've ever worked on, there's something more. You know, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.200 there might be harmark cross that was performed, there may 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.959 be fiber analysis that matches. There might be you know, 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:23.119 a smudge, fingerprint, or some kind of presumpted blood. But this, 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:27.439 this is that case that the only thing that ties 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.800 these individuals to the case are these confessions they're alleged 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.479 to have made. All of the air quotes. Science that 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.800 they tried to utilize excluded them, but. 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:44.280 They marched right ahead as if it included them, right exactly. 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.720 It just keeps piling up, right, So we have the 0:19:46.760 --> 0:19:50.680 blind witness, right, we have the false confessions that might 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:54.280 as well have been written in Chinese or Greek Portuguese 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.640 because you didn't know what the hell you were signing, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.919 And the physical and forensic evidence collected does match. So 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:05.280 it's already the pile of sculpatory evidence and factors is 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.560 growing and growing. But also you had an alibi. It 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.840 wasn't like you were by yourself that night, right. 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:13.879 That's right now, staying at my grandfather at the time, 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:18.080 that's where I was. And Clarence and Russell that was 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:19.160 their residence too. 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.400 Yes, I was at home and my mother can confirm 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.840 that the aster where I was on the guy got killed. 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:29.920 She said I was at home when she got home, 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.800 but then she said she was drunk. There's the bars 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.960 closed about twelve o'clock. Then she walked from the main 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.080 street to Isabel Street. The that's about fifteen minute to 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.680 twenty minute walk, so that would be about two o'clock 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.560 when I was at home, because she said I was 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.800 complaining to her about her becoming home late, because you know, 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:49.360 I had to get up in the morning. Were there, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.919 So I don't I be walking at two o'clock in 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.760 the morning and waking me up, And that's how she remembered. 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.360 So you guys both underwent preliminary hearings. Alan you were 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.959 discharged November nineteen seventy three after the preliminary hearing based 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.040 on the finding that the statement to police was involuntary 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:11.400 and thereby inadmissible and you were discharged, but you were 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.880 mentioned in the other statements, and then they were still 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.320 able to put you on trial and they had you 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.560 bumped up from juvenile court into adult court. It just 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.440 keeps getting worse to stand trial along with Brian and 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:24.800 your other two co defendants. 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:26.120 Right, that's right. 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.080 So now we get to the trial, and you got 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.520 George Dangerfield. We talked about the notorious prosecutor. This trial 0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:37.400 took place February eighteenth through March fifth. Now, obviously you've 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:40.479 studied it in detail, Bob, and tell us about this trial. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.920 The only thing here is the confessions the trial. Jidge 0:21:44.960 --> 0:21:46.760 actually says that, and I'm going to read you a 0:21:46.840 --> 0:21:50.119 quote from his instructions to the jury. The whole case 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.240 basically against these accused, each of them, rests on his 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.440 own statement, and that sort of summarizes the trial. The 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.919 entire length of the trial focused on these statements, and 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:07.720 it was essentially a competition on who was telling the truth. 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:11.600 You know, you had these supposedly upstanding officers that were 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.160 presenting this case vouching for the fact that these individuals 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.600 had confessed to them. And on the opposite side, you 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:22.000 had four young indigenous men who were sort of villipied. 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.800 They didn't speak English, they weren't provided with interpreters, and 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:29.240 essentially it was their word against the police. 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:32.960 The word of the same police officers who had beaten Allen, 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.560 who was a child. They literally beat him to extract 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:40.520 the statement that was then, of course, later presented against 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:41.240 him at trial. 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:43.640 Oh yeah, well that's the only thing. That's the only 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.520