1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: On Tuesday, July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, a local chef 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: and father of two, Ting Fong Chan, walked home from 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: his night shift in Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada at around six am. 4 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: His body was found beaten and stabbed death near a 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: construction site. An eyewitness saw the assailants through the darkness 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: and described the group as four or five men with 7 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: long hair. The police asked if the assailants may have 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: been indigenous. The eyewitness couldn't say either way without a 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: definitive answer, investigators began campassing the local indigenous population, and 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 1: a man named Adam Woodhouse told them about a recent 11 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: gathering at his home attended by Clarence and Russell Woodhouse 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: as well as their cousin Brian Anderson. However, this gathering 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: happened on Thursday night, not on Monday into Tuesday, the 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: night of the crime. Despite the confusion over the date, 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: as well as the uncertainty over the assailants ethnicity, Clarence 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: and Russell Woodhouse, Brian Anderson, as well as their younger 17 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: friend Allan Woodhouse underwent a series of coercive and in 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 1: some cases, violent interrogations, resulting in four false confessions written 19 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: in a language in which none of them were entirely fluent. 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: The trial consisted of the presentation of these alleged confessions 21 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: against four matching recantations, as well as alibi witnesses and 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: accusations of police misconduct and brutality. Fifty years later, Brian 23 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: Anderson and Alan Woodhouse share their harrowing story and the 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: struggle to clear their names. This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome 25 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: back to wrongful Conviction. This is an episode it's going 26 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: to take everyone who listens on a journey, not just 27 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: far away because this took place in the Great White North, 28 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: but also to a place of disbelief for how the system, 29 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: in this case, the system in Canada, can do what 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: it does to innocent civilians. Let me introduce our guests 31 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: and then we'll explain more about the case. With us, 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: we have two wrongfully convicted men. First of all, Brian Anderson, 33 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to wrongful Conviction. I'm sorry you're here under the services, 34 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: but I'm happy you're here. Thank you and with us 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: as well as Alan Woodhouse. So grateful for you being 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: here as well. 37 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for having me here today. 38 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: And joining us. Is an incredible woman named bob and Sody. 39 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: Bobbin is the attorney of record for these men. She 40 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: was the legal director at Innocence Canada at the time 41 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: that she got involved with this case, and she's currently 42 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: got one of the most amazing and interesting jobs, I 43 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: think in the entire world of criminal justice. She is 44 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: the intake director at the Innocence Project of New York. 45 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: So Bobin, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 46 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having us, Jason. 47 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 4: So. 48 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: Bobn I almost feel like I want to let you 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: set the stage here. I mean, this case is so nuts. 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: It involves lies from people in positions of power, false confessions. 51 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: At least one of the men didn't even speak the 52 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: language of the confession that he was signing, that he 53 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: didn't even know was a confession, Jason. 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 3: For me, this was one of the first cases I 55 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 3: worked on in my role as legal director at Innocence Canada, 56 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: and it's one of those cases that right off the 57 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 3: batch you know that something isn't right. 58 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: You know. 59 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: My co counsel, Jerome Kennedy has always put it best. 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 3: We started off knowing that this was a nineteen seventy 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 3: three case. It involved the Winnipeg Police service, four young 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 3: Indigenous men and George Dangerfield. And as far as innocence 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 3: Canada was concerned, that is a recipe for wrongful conviction. 64 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: And George Dangerfield just what a name for a guy 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: who has the dubious distinction of being the Crown prosecutor 66 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: who is responsible for the most wrongful convictions in Canadian history. 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: And he was unfortunately the top prosecutor in Manitoba, Canada 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: for thirty years. And just to paint a picture of 69 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the guys who ended up getting caught in this nightmare, 70 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Brian Anderson, who's with us today at seventh grade education 71 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 1: and no knowledge of the criminal legal system. He grew 72 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: up on the Fairford Indian Reserve between Lake Manitoba and 73 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: Lake Saint Mark, about two hundred and thirty kilometers or 74 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty three miles north of Winnipeg. The 75 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: eldest had ten children. At eighteen, he moved to Winnipeg 76 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: to work and live with his grandparents. And his first 77 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: language was not English. He barely spoke English at all. 78 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: His first language was Ojibwe Salto. And he had no 79 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: criminal record whatsoever. This is important, that's important to know. 80 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: But it turned out not to matter in this case. 81 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: So Brian, tell me about your life growing up. Did 82 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: you have a happy childhood? Yes? 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 4: I did? I think I did. 84 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 5: You don't know anything about life at that age. 85 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: So right, you're a kid, I mean, let's face it. 86 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: As a teenager you just said yeah, exactly, figuring it 87 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: out just like anybody else. And Alan, what about for you? 88 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: You lived on the Fairport Indian Reserve as well, with 89 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: English as a second language. You had a ninth grade 90 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: education there. You were seventeen years old, but also with 91 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: no criminal record, and moved to Winnipeg two months before 92 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: this awful crime happened. So Alan, what was your life 93 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: like growing up in those times? 94 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: From what you can remember, Well, my childhost is pretty rugged, 95 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: so to speak, of eight brothers and two sisters, as 96 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 2: I was a lot of people. Brian's younger brother I 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 2: have and I used to be my handout buddy. We're 98 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: up at the same age. Ban were a bit of wolder, 99 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 2: so he hung out with you a wolder crowd. The 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: only reason I was in Winnipeg is because to look 101 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: for work. There's no work in a reserve, of course, 102 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: because I was over sixteen, so I just moved to 103 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: Winnipeg about a couple of months when I got arrested. 104 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: Right and before you were arrested, the police picked up 105 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: Clarence Woodhouse, followed by Russell Woodhouse, then you Alan Woodhouse, 106 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: and lastly Brian Anderson. And the whole thing started with 107 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: a statement from Woodhouse. First of all, that's a lot 108 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: of woodhouses. So just to keep things straight for our audience. 109 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: From what I gather, Woodhouse must be a common name, Brian, 110 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: Are any of you guys related? 111 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 5: Yes, I am. They are my cousins, which is the Woodhouses. 112 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 5: Clarence and Russell, we had the same grandfather. We knew 113 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 5: each other right from the little kids. 114 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: I'm not related to idiotom actually not even Adam Mudos. 115 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: So Clarence and Russell were related to you, Brian. But 116 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: Adam and Allen aren't related to any of you guys, right, yes, 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: so the crime itself. July seventeenth, nineteen seventy three, forty 118 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: zho men in ting Pong Chan was beaten and stabbed 119 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: to death near a downtown construction site in Manitoba, which 120 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: is Winnipeg. Mister Chan was a father of two and 121 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 1: a chef at a restaurant called The Beachcomber. He was 122 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: walking home from the night shift and his body was 123 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: found at six am on the seventeenth. So then comes 124 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: this ridiculous quote unquote investigation. 125 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: For the first couple of days after Chan's body was found, 126 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 3: no investigation occurred. Essentially, they were doing a scan of 127 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: the neighborhood and they came across a witness named Daisy 128 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: Towel and Daisy, what's interesting about her is she didn't 129 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: really see much at all. What she claims to have 130 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,559 Speaker 3: seen under the light of a lamppost in the middle 131 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: of the night without her glasses, and she indicated that 132 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 3: she had very poor vision was the outline of four 133 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: or five individuals that had long hair, And when the 134 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: officers put it to her whether she thought they were indigenous, 135 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: she said, well, yes, they could be. And you know, 136 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 3: the important point here is this was the seventies, and 137 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: so I'm presuming a lot of people had long hair. 138 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I have fond memories of that era. I mean, long hair, 139 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: great music, and this witness could have easily and vaguely 140 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: stuck me into this group as well. I mean I 141 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: fit that much at the description. That's the only description 142 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: they had. So it's important to note that the police 143 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: offered this blurry cited eyewitness the suggestion that the assailants 144 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: were Indigenous, not the other way around. And Alan, I 145 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: know you eventually became a jail house lawyer. Does it 146 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: strike you as business as usual for the police in 147 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: that era with in doubt, just take an indigenous guy, right, 148 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: just start targeting Indigenous people. 149 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I think goes wrong right away. 150 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: It's Native people even in the reserve. You know, something 151 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: happened outside the reserves. There's better community out there, right 152 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: there's there's been Native people. There'd be police driving around 153 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: looking for so and sorry though, that's the reality of it. 154 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the police ended up canvassing the neighborhood on the 155 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: lookout essentially for young Indigenous men. And that's how a 156 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: few days later they came upon Adam Woodhouse's house and 157 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 3: spoke to him. They also spoke to his common law 158 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: partner and his common law partner's daughter. And what I 159 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: will say is English wasn't even the first language of 160 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 3: these witnesses. So Adam was also someone who was struggling 161 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: to understand this context, wasn't provided an interpreter, and was 162 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 3: participating and so when they spoke to Adam on July 163 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: twenty second, he said, well, yes, on the night of 164 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 3: the murderer, I had a group of young Indigenous men 165 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: with me, including Brian Anderson, Clarence Woodhouse and Russell Woodhouse. 166 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 3: And he distinctly didn't mention Alan. And what's interesting about 167 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 3: the fact that he said that is almost immediately following 168 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 3: his common law partner and his common law partner's daughter 169 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 3: said yes, these young men were at our house, but 170 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: that actually occurred Thursday and not on the night in question. 171 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: And the reason that's interesting is a lot of the 172 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 3: information that Adam was recalling from the evening actually related 173 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: to things that happened on Thursday. So, for example, he 174 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 3: referenced receiving his check he usually receives that on a 175 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: Thursday night. He referenced using that check in order to 176 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 3: buy beer again as a result of what happened on 177 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 3: Thursday night. But essentially, the police, ignoring what you know 178 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 3: his common law partner and her daughter said, decided to 179 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 3: venture out. And this is when this web began to weave, 180 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: and within twenty four hours they managed to get you 181 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 3: alleged confessions from Clarence Woodhouse, Russell Woodhouse, Allan Woodhouse and 182 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 3: Brian Anderson. 183 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: Wow, so no, I mean they didn't even pretend to 184 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: do a real investigation, just the assumption by the police 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: that the assailants were indigenous. And Adam Woodhouse told them 186 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: about gathering at his home with Clarence Russell and Brian, 187 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 1: nothing about a murder or any conspiracy to commit murder 188 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: or any criminal activity at all. And it even turned 189 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 1: out to be the wrong night entirely. Monday into Tuesday 190 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: was when it happened. This was Thursday, but that didn't matter. 191 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: And now the interrogations and false confessions began in a 192 00:10:58,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: language you guys didn't even. 193 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: Under I think a really important part of this is 194 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: understanding the sequence of the confessions, just to understand how 195 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 3: they utilized classic red technique despite the fact that everything 196 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: pointed against them. So yes, all four confessions, and this 197 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 3: is important, all four of the confessions that these boys 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: are alleged to have made start off with the exact 199 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 3: same sentence. All four of them say, on Monday night, 200 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 3: I was and when I read that, I knew that 201 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 3: something was amiss. We have four men who are alleged 202 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: to have written these confessions in separate rooms, separate circumstances, 203 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: varying understanding of English, and yet all of their statements 204 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 3: start the exact same way. And so that's when I 205 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 3: delved into the actual sequence, like how did they obtain them? 206 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 3: And what I saw was classic retechnique. 207 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: You know. 208 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 3: They started off with Clarence. They took him to the scene, 209 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: brought him back to the station, They asked him to 210 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: mark up the body and where it was that he 211 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 3: had attacked, you know, ting fong Chen, immediately assuming that 212 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: he was the person responsible. Ultimately, this allegedly led to 213 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 3: his confession. And what's interesting about the confession is it's 214 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 3: a partial confession and the only person that's mentioned in 215 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 3: it is Russell. Then they go to Russell and they 216 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 3: go look at this confession that Clarence gave you. And 217 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: what's interesting about that is that Russell didn't even have 218 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 3: enough of an understanding of the English language to be 219 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 3: able to read the confession that Clarence apparently made. So 220 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 3: they brought Clarence into the room with Russell to read 221 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 3: to his brother this confession he's alleged to have made. 222 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: And so Russell apparently makes the confession same thing on 223 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: Monday night, I was, and so not only does he 224 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 3: now mention Clarence himself, but he also references Alan, and 225 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 3: so that is how Alan is brought into the story, 226 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 3: and so then Alan is arrested. He is also shown 227 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: the confession that now Clarence has made and subsequently Russell 228 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: have made. And what's interesting about Alan is he was 229 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:16,199 Speaker 3: subjected to physical abuse because he refused to make this confession. 230 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 2: That night, in that particular, when I got picked up, 231 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: you know, there was a knock on the door, and 232 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: there's two people standing there in suits. I guess you 233 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: call them planes closed. 234 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 4: Now. 235 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 2: He asked me what my name was, So I told 236 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 2: them who I was. So I said, sorry, grand them 237 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: my wrist. You're the one we're looking for it. So 238 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: I said, way wait, I said, what's going on? I 239 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 2: want to talk to you. I went downstairs with and 240 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: Mark carr on downstairs and they took me to the 241 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: police station. We were the police. I asked him what 242 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 2: its this about it? He said murder? I said murder. 243 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: I said, maybe they had found a dead body and 244 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: they wanted me to go and recognize some of the 245 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: body or see what I mean. When we got to 246 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: the police station and they said Okay, where were you 247 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 2: on Tuesday night? So I tood, not hoom. Who else 248 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 2: was there? There's nobody there. It's just me. My mother 249 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: and I lived there, just had that little apartment, and 250 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: my mother well she went out a lot, she drank 251 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: a lot. But anyway, so I told him I was 252 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: at home and they said, oh, there's nobody there, said, 253 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: I know, you weren't there. You were at Adams Woodha Streets. 254 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: I said, no, I wasn't there. I was there on Thursday. Yeah. 255 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: They went back and forth for a while and they 256 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 2: got angrier and angrier, and they started getting physical. I 257 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: mean they were really rough. I mean they were they're 258 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 2: hitting me. I mean, I was all bloody. So after 259 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: four hours they rode up the statement, told me to 260 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: sign it and then you can go, said, So I 261 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: signed it, I said, After they signed, their hand covered 262 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: me ultimately. 263 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: Again. Interesting, his confession starts off with on Monday night 264 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,359 Speaker 3: I was and the variation there was. Now this confession 265 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 3: includes Clarence, it includes Russell, it includes Alan, and there 266 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: is the first reference to Brian Anderson. And so then 267 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 3: they go to Brian and they speak to him, and 268 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: they take Brian to the scene. They show him alleged 269 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: weapons that were utilized, you know, and they show him 270 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: the confessions of the other three points. Like on Monday night, I. 271 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 5: Was on the twenty third, I got picked up for murder. 272 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 5: Like I wasn't even a suspect. I was charged already. 273 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 5: They got me to sign a piece of paper, which 274 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 5: I did, and I didn't know that was the confession 275 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,479 Speaker 5: that supposedly I had made. 276 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: The idea that you were signing a piece of paper 277 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: in a language you didn't speak with nobody there to 278 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: guide you or help you or advise you. I read 279 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: somewhere that you had thought that it might have been 280 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: just something related to your possessions that they were keeping 281 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: on storage for you while they arrested you. Is that accurate. 282 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 4: Yes. 283 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 5: What they do is they make you empty your pockets 284 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 5: and that they put stuff aside and you have to 285 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 5: sign for them. And that's what I thought it was. 286 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 5: That's how crooked they were, you know, they didn't care 287 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 5: just because they had these witnesses they were calling them. 288 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 5: That's where they based all this stuff from. 289 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 3: And so at the end of the day, as a 290 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 3: result of this sort of linear sequential experience, now all 291 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: four boys are alleged to have participated. The statements that 292 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: start very much the same build on each other. So 293 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: first you have just Clarence, then you have Clarence and Russell, 294 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: then you have Clarence Russell and Alan, and finally the 295 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 3: final statement Clarence Russell, Alan and Brian have participated. And 296 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 3: so essentially you have each of the young men pointing 297 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 3: the finger at each other and weaving this web for the. 298 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: Police actually feels a little bit like a Canadian version 299 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: of New York City's own horror show known as The 300 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: Central Park Five, currently known as Exonerated five because they 301 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: use some of the same techniques differently, but you know, 302 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: using everybody against each other and the physical abuse. And 303 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: it's very important for our audience to know that in 304 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 1: twenty nine percent of the DNA exonerations, the person who 305 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: was proven with absolute certainty scientific certainty to be innocent 306 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: confessed to the crime they didn't commit. Just like in 307 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: this case, Bobin, what about physical or forensic evidence? Did 308 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: they collect any, did they examine it? Was there any? 309 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,239 Speaker 1: Did they even make a show out of trying to 310 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: solve this case? 311 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,239 Speaker 3: So that is where this case gets interesting, Jason. They 312 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 3: actually did collect a lot of forensic evidence. The Winnipeg 313 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 3: Police Service collected fiber analysis here microscopy, So there was 314 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 3: three hairs that were grasped in Ting Fong Chan's hands. 315 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 3: They had fingerprints, they collected clothing, they undertook presumptive blood tests, 316 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 3: there was a series of knives that were collected, and 317 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 3: essentially they used a number of different you know, and 318 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 3: I used air quote sciences, sciences that have since been 319 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 3: dubbed junk science to these things. But what's amazing about 320 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 3: this case is Brian Anderson, Alan Woodhouse and the other 321 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 3: two co accused were excluded from all of them. So 322 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 3: they engaged in this efforts to try and get something 323 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 3: beyond the confession undertaking these sciences, again air quotes, that 324 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 3: have contributed to a number of wrongful convictions, but in 325 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: this instance, remarkably, these four men were excluded. 326 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: So even when they were using these super subjective, absolute 327 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: junk sciences that are very useful for when you want 328 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: to conjure up corroborating evidence for a false confession or 329 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: a misidentification or a jail house snitch testimony, even when 330 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: they tried to cheat, they failed, where so many other 331 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: unscrupulous prosecutors and law enforcement officials have succeeded time and 332 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: time again. So I mean, I'm sure that there are 333 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: a number of people in the audience scratching their heads 334 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: as I'm doing right now and saying, wait, I thought 335 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: she said they were excluded. 336 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 3: That's the weirdest thing about this case. So in every 337 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 3: other case I've ever worked on, there's something more. You know, 338 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 3: there might be harmark cross that was performed, there may 339 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,959 Speaker 3: be fiber analysis that matches. There might be you know, 340 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: a smudge, fingerprint, or some kind of presumpted blood. But this, 341 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:27,439 Speaker 3: this is that case that the only thing that ties 342 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: these individuals to the case are these confessions they're alleged 343 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 3: to have made. All of the air quotes. Science that 344 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 3: they tried to utilize excluded them, but. 345 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: They marched right ahead as if it included them, right exactly. 346 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: It just keeps piling up, right, So we have the 347 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: blind witness, right, we have the false confessions that might 348 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: as well have been written in Chinese or Greek Portuguese 349 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: because you didn't know what the hell you were signing, 350 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: And the physical and forensic evidence collected does match. So 351 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: it's already the pile of sculpatory evidence and factors is 352 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: growing and growing. But also you had an alibi. It 353 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: wasn't like you were by yourself that night, right. 354 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 5: That's right now, staying at my grandfather at the time, 355 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 5: that's where I was. And Clarence and Russell that was 356 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 5: their residence too. 357 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: Yes, I was at home and my mother can confirm 358 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: that the aster where I was on the guy got killed. 359 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: She said I was at home when she got home, 360 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: but then she said she was drunk. There's the bars 361 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: closed about twelve o'clock. Then she walked from the main 362 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: street to Isabel Street. The that's about fifteen minute to 363 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 2: twenty minute walk, so that would be about two o'clock 364 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 2: when I was at home, because she said I was 365 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: complaining to her about her becoming home late, because you know, 366 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 2: I had to get up in the morning. Were there, 367 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 2: So I don't I be walking at two o'clock in 368 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: the morning and waking me up, And that's how she remembered. 369 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,360 Speaker 1: So you guys both underwent preliminary hearings. Alan you were 370 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 1: discharged November nineteen seventy three after the preliminary hearing based 371 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: on the finding that the statement to police was involuntary 372 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 1: and thereby inadmissible and you were discharged, but you were 373 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: mentioned in the other statements, and then they were still 374 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: able to put you on trial and they had you 375 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: bumped up from juvenile court into adult court. It just 376 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: keeps getting worse to stand trial along with Brian and 377 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: your other two co defendants. 378 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 2: Right, that's right. 379 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: So now we get to the trial, and you got 380 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: George Dangerfield. We talked about the notorious prosecutor. This trial 381 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,400 Speaker 1: took place February eighteenth through March fifth. Now, obviously you've 382 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,479 Speaker 1: studied it in detail, Bob, and tell us about this trial. 383 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 3: The only thing here is the confessions the trial. Jidge 384 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: actually says that, and I'm going to read you a 385 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 3: quote from his instructions to the jury. The whole case 386 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 3: basically against these accused, each of them, rests on his 387 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 3: own statement, and that sort of summarizes the trial. The 388 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: entire length of the trial focused on these statements, and 389 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 3: it was essentially a competition on who was telling the truth. 390 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 3: You know, you had these supposedly upstanding officers that were 391 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 3: presenting this case vouching for the fact that these individuals 392 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 3: had confessed to them. And on the opposite side, you 393 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 3: had four young indigenous men who were sort of villipied. 394 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 3: They didn't speak English, they weren't provided with interpreters, and 395 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: essentially it was their word against the police. 396 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: The word of the same police officers who had beaten Allen, 397 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: who was a child. They literally beat him to extract 398 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: the statement that was then, of course, later presented against 399 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: him at trial. 400 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well that's the only thing. That's the only 401 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 2: thing they had. I said, Oh yeah, you came out 402 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: and you confessed it, of question, that's what the police said. 403 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 2: They didn't stand time with the beating, they unied it. 404 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: Of course, even the statement wasn't true. For instance, the 405 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: statement said that I had started this person in the 406 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 2: stomach a couple of times, but there was no stab 407 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 2: wounds in the stomach at all. 408 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: It's a classic hallmark of a false confession when the 409 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: details of the statement don't match the physical evidence. And 410 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: there were also the alibi witnesses. But in reading about 411 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: the trial, it really made me sort of throw want 412 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,440 Speaker 1: to throw up in my mouth to read that Brian's 413 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: grandfather was never even called to testify to his alibi. 414 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: It's insane. But then this part I don't know struck 415 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: me in a different sort of sickening type of way, 416 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: which is that Alan, your mother was called the trial, 417 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: which was appropriate, but from what I understand, the jury 418 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: didn't hear her full explanation because the judge freaking interrupted 419 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: her during a pivotal moment of questioning and then sent 420 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 1: her home without allowing her to answer the question like 421 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: what planet are we on? This is madness? 422 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well today, I don't know why the judge was 423 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: sort of hostile toward her. Yeah, because you don't understand 424 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: what's going on here? Go sit down, Yeah, let's say 425 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 2: and sat down. It seems to me he just didn't 426 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 2: want to hear her say anything. I don't know why. 427 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: Maybe he didn't want to hear the truth. He didn't 428 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 2: want to hear any evidence contrary to what they believed. 429 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: I mean, as a parent, I think anyone who's listening, 430 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: who is a parent, father, mother, whatever, would feel a 431 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: sense of outrage that this is the mother with her 432 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: son's life at stake, and the judge is basically treating 433 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: her as if her life her son's life. 434 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 3: No, none of it matters, honestly, Jason, it was the 435 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: moment that our read the sentencing decision. I want to 436 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: read this passage to you. So these are the comments 437 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 3: of the trial judge. She says, this is not a 438 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 3: jungle where we live. It is not a wild's land. 439 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 3: We are not subduing this land from anybody. We are 440 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: not still taking it from wild people in this community. 441 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: We want to be able to come and go freely, 442 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 3: whether the lights are on in the streets or whether 443 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: they are out, whether the police are patrolling the roads 444 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 3: or whether they aren't. And you know, Jason, extemporaneous comments 445 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 3: about jungles and wildness not only add nothing useful to 446 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: the trial process, but they conjure up stereotypes that can 447 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 3: only do unfair damage to indigenous person Standing trial. 448 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: March fifth, nineteen seventy four, Brian Allen and Clarence were 449 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: found guilty of murder and sentence to life in prison, 450 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: and Russell was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 451 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: ten years. So, Brian and Alan, what was that like 452 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: when that fury came in and sends you to prison 453 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. 454 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I was shock coming. I was just spitless. It's 455 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: sort of I don't I don't get it. I never 456 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: thought of killing anyone in my life ever. 457 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 5: I have to just take what was coming to me 458 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 5: because like a I guess you like a sheep and 459 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 5: a slaughter house or whatever, like you know this, do 460 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 5: whatever they want you have. 461 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 4: You have nothing. 462 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 5: Once the door loss behind you, you're in that little 463 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 5: cell by yourself, and then that's all you do, you think. 464 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 5: I didn't know how to take it to begin with 465 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 5: a thing, and I thought, wows just do away with myself, 466 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 5: kill myself. 467 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: And then. 468 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 5: After thinking about that, I thought, hey, I can't be 469 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 5: doing this. I'll be helping those buckers. That's what they're 470 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 5: trying to do to me, you try to kill me. 471 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: Then I promised myself that I would keep going and 472 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 5: I'm still here. 473 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it helped me a lot of owned 474 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: out totally alone because there was Brian, There's Clarence and Russell, 475 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: So yeah, I had some some kind of support. 476 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 4: Yeah. 477 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 2: When I got to personally, I never realized how many 478 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: Native people they were there. There's just full of Native 479 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: people there was. There was hardly any white people there 480 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: at all. It seems I seemed like a big giant reserve. 481 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: When I joined the organization. Now in the Native Brotherhood, 482 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 2: I was quite active in prison politics. I was present 483 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 2: for the Brotherhood a few times. And not only that, 484 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: I became a Jellhouse lawyers of all things. Yes, so 485 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 2: that kept me occupied. I got pretty good in learn 486 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: learning the system. There was a time there I thought, well, now, 487 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: I don't know where this idea came from. I thought, 488 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: you can serve your time where you can let the 489 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 2: Times review. I think, yeah, I started adopted our philosophy. 490 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 5: Pick up books or what I would try and distract 491 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 5: your mind. That kind of kept me sane, Like you know, 492 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 5: I didn't. I didn't go insane at all. I went 493 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 5: to school as well, trying to learn something, like you know, 494 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 5: try and educate myself, to try and learn English. At 495 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 5: least I could try and speak for myself because my 496 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 5: lawyer wouldn't speak for me. 497 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,880 Speaker 2: I finished my high school in prison. I took some 498 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: courses here, like auto mechanics took I took electrician and 499 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: I work as electrician every time I'm out. I thought 500 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: schooling would be the best way to get out as 501 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: soon as possible as Enforstnately, they didn't turn it that away, 502 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: because I spent seventeen years in prison before I got 503 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 2: a full parole. 504 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: That's right, Alan, Despite both of you spending your time 505 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: so well behind the walls. As you both just described, 506 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: you were not granted parole until nineteen ninety, while Brian 507 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: was initially denied parl nineteen eighty because the par Wark 508 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: concluded that Brian had a quote unquote obsession to prove 509 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: his innocence. I mean, of course, but they said that 510 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: that could potentially result in his violating release conditions. Like what, okay, 511 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: what are we through the looking glass here? I mean, 512 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: you can't win in that situation. An innocent man not 513 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: deserving a parole. It's just totally asked backwards. But there 514 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: was a man that I read about who was a 515 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,479 Speaker 1: fierce advocate for you, Brian. And that guy's name was 516 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: Dick Skelding. 517 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 5: He was a school teacher. And then I asked him 518 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 5: to help me write a letter to my lawyer. He 519 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 5: helped me out and then he says, oh, I'll send 520 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 5: him a letter to He said, after that the lawyer, 521 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 5: I had tried to get him fired because he's trying 522 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 5: to help me. And then he was pissed off at that. 523 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 5: He said there's something going on here. He said, something wrong. 524 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 5: You're like a lawyer like that, he's supposed to be 525 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 5: helping and he's against you. And then he says, would 526 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,479 Speaker 5: you take a light detector? He said, so, I said okay, 527 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 5: and then I passed it, of course, and then after 528 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 5: that he contacted the CTV News and then they came 529 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 5: in interviewed me over there. 530 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, he died in nineteen eighty two, but you carried on, 531 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: and as you mentioned, the CTV did its story on 532 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: your case, Brian called the Anderson Confession. And you know, 533 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: sometimes pressure breaks pipes. So you were ultimately released on 534 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: full parole in nineteen eighty three, ten years after your arrest. 535 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: But then Alan, you spent seventeen years in prison before 536 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: being granted parole on May twenty third, nineteen ninety. 537 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: Well, they wanted me to admit that kill somebody, and 538 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 2: I just couldn't bring miss out to tell you I 539 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: got I didn't kill anybody. Finally, I think this sort 540 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: of said they weren't going to get me to say 541 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 2: that killed somebody. I think one of the members said, 542 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 2: you know, he said, we can't base our decisi't based 543 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: on what you say. We have to base just isn't 544 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: based on the fact that you were convicted. Even if 545 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: you were in and they granted me a parole I 546 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: think in March, and then I said, okay, you can 547 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 2: get on me twenty three, nineteen ninety. So I went 548 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 2: to the halfway house, you know, which is just another prison. 549 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: So I stayed there another six months. So sir, it's 550 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 2: a gradual release. You know, you don't just walk over there. Yeah. 551 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: There some parole officers ra attitude. You're trying to find 552 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 2: excuses to send you back to prison. The current one 553 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: is actually pretty good right now. So it's actually very 554 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: good completely the elevance. Oh, I've had really bad parole officers. 555 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: I've been suspended a few times. I hardly got out 556 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: on habeas corpus. Three times my parole officers revoked my parole. 557 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: I had to take him to court to reinstace my parole. 558 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: Take me three times, and they finally I told him 559 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: that the next time I caught him on hebis corpus, 560 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: I will be filing civil suit. So far there left 561 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: me alone. But like today, I could be suspended right now. 562 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: You know, I can't be in chill tomorrow. That's just 563 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: the way it. 564 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: Is, Brian. For you for was revolt to suspend it 565 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: and regranted numerous time. We've talked about this before, you 566 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: and I about sort of the prison outside of the prison, right. 567 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 568 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 5: Well, I had such a racist parole officer because of him, 569 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 5: I went back and forth. He told me he was 570 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 5: an ex cop. He was really after me like any 571 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 5: little thing. Even when he used to come visit me. 572 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 5: He put his phone or whatever tape recorder aside. He said, well, 573 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 5: I'm going to turn this off first so it don't 574 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 5: get interrupted, and he's recording me all this time. You know, 575 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 5: I could see that. And then he had said, well, 576 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 5: like you know, what we say and what the courts 577 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 5: say are two different things. Don't bet on it. He 578 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 5: told me, like, you know, like you're going to go back, 579 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 5: like he made a decision already. I was going to 580 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 5: get revoked, revoked my parole. I was glad to get 581 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 5: rid of him. Finally they gave me another one, which 582 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 5: is a woman after that, and then she was nice 583 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 5: to me, and I never then it went back after that. 584 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 5: I'm still with it today. Like you know, I have 585 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 5: I have like a chain, like a lease. I can 586 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 5: only go so far, like as a radius. I can't 587 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 5: go past eighty kilometers from where I'm at I can 588 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 5: get thrown back in jail for that, for being out 589 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 5: of the boundary. 590 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all these years later. It's so crazy that 591 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: in Canada they do it much the same way we 592 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: do here, which is try to make their lives as 593 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: difficult as possible after their feed whether they're innocent or guilty. 594 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: Of course, if you're declared actually innocent, then they don't 595 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: put you on parole here. But I always say we 596 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: should build ramps for people coming out of prison so 597 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 1: they can get back on their feet, join their community, 598 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: get back with their family, go to school, become contributing 599 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: members of society. Instead, we put up roadblocks every place 600 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: we can and put ice in the road and nail 601 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 1: so you get tripped up and you go right back 602 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: to prison. There's forty four hundred different restrictions in America 603 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: on parole and probation, over forty four hundred, some of 604 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: them make it virtually impossible for somebody to remain free. 605 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: And sad to hear that it's the same way in Canada. 606 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 5: Exactly, Like you know, like what I didn't like about 607 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,879 Speaker 5: this too, is that like somebody come from another part 608 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 5: of the world like you, on the other side of 609 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 5: the world, for example, and come and tell me how 610 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 5: to live my life in my own country. You know 611 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,280 Speaker 5: that pisces me off try to control my life, still 612 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 5: do I don't like that? 613 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 4: I should be free? 614 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: So they have yet to declare you both actually listen, 615 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: all these decades later, while they continue to keep their 616 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 1: hooks into you, and as time has passed, the fight 617 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: to clear your names has remained constant, but the process 618 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 1: is maddeningly slow. In fact, the presence of Bob and 619 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: with us today starts a while back with a legend 620 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: in the innocence community who has since then passed. 621 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 5: Hurricane Carter's name came up. I was told to contact 622 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 5: Hurricane Carter. They were called Aidwick. Now they're called Innocence Canada. 623 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 5: I didn't know anything about Innocence Canada. There was the 624 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 5: four cases that came up, people that were convicted from 625 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 5: George Landerfield. Their cases were looked after. They've been dealt 626 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,919 Speaker 5: with already, and I believe my case was ahead of them, 627 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 5: but I haven't been looked at it all. 628 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: So, Bobin, when did you and Jerome Kennedy get involved 629 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: and take us right up to the present to where 630 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: the case is at right now? 631 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 3: Jerome and I became involved in twenty seventeen, and that 632 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 3: was when Innocence Canada was going under a bit of 633 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,560 Speaker 3: a shift. So what Jerome Kennedy did was review every 634 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 3: single file that was on our roster and evaluate it. 635 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 3: I think it was days into me starting my role 636 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: as legal director, we started working on this case and 637 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 3: so almost instantly, over the course of the next maybe 638 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 3: year year and a half, we were pouring over every document, 639 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 3: calling every institution, trying to put together this file and 640 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: figure out a way in because I think the struggle 641 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:31,839 Speaker 3: in this case was they were so obviously innocent. The 642 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 3: only thing here was the confession, and we just couldn't 643 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 3: figure out why it was they were convicted. And so 644 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 3: we submitted Brian's case at the beginning of twenty nineteen 645 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: to an organization known as the CCRG, So that's the 646 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 3: Criminal Convictions Review Group and essentially that is the sub 647 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 3: department of our Ministry of Justice. And in Canada, what 648 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 3: this process involves is us filing what is known as 649 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 3: a Section ninety six point one application, and the Ministry 650 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 3: on their website provides you about three pages in order 651 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,840 Speaker 3: to be able to make a person's claim of innocence. 652 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,919 Speaker 3: But ultimately Brian and Allen's combined applications ended up being 653 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 3: three hundred pages of us noting everything we had found, 654 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 3: and was accompanied by I think almost five or six 655 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 3: banker's boxes of evidence we had collected over the years 656 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 3: what had initially only started off with the four confessions. 657 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 3: So presently Brian's was filed in twenty nineteen. The CCRG 658 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 3: actually approached us and asked us to file Allen's in 659 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: twenty twenty, and so we filed his application in February, 660 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 3: sort of as a supplement to the two. And now 661 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 3: it's still before the CCRG being considered and it's a 662 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 3: long process. We've been waiting for a while and we're 663 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 3: really hoping that the Minister makes a decision soon. 664 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. It really just pisses me off how easy it 665 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: is to throw a few good men's lives away, but 666 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: then to of course to undo that dirty work, is it? 667 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: You know, Well, now we know it's a fifty year 668 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: uphill struggle with Baker's boxes of material that takes years 669 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: to a mass and of course many more years to 670 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 1: get in front of anybody who's in a position to 671 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: do anything about it. 672 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,760 Speaker 3: That's the thing about wrongful convictions. It is so easy 673 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 3: to convict someone and here we are fifty years later, 674 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 3: still trying to undo it. You know, I started on 675 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 3: it twenty seventeen. It is now twenty twenty two, just 676 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 3: to get an idea of how long this process takes. 677 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 3: And I am just on the tail end of Alan 678 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: and Brian's efforts to sort of undo what happened to them. 679 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,240 Speaker 1: And if any of our listeners want to support your efforts, 680 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: is there a website that can go to. 681 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 3: So the ask for us is supporting organizations like an 682 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 3: Since Canada, we have so little resources, and to Brian's point, 683 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,720 Speaker 3: it takes us years to even get to the point 684 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 3: that we have enough resources to be able to review 685 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 3: and evaluate a case. And in the absence of us 686 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 3: doing so, there is no one else. There is no 687 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 3: one else that is doing this work. And so people 688 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 3: like Brian are forced to wait in the queue until 689 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 3: we have enough resources ability to reach that file. And 690 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 3: this is a human being that is waiting for us, 691 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 3: that is waiting for us to review their case. And 692 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 3: so all I'd ask, you know, the pitch to the 693 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 3: audience would be to support your local wrongful conviction organization. 694 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 3: Make sure that you're able to contribute to them in 695 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 3: that way. And when there are policy matters that are 696 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 3: coming up or opportunities to support, please do, please. 697 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,240 Speaker 1: Do, amen, So keep your ear to the ground. People 698 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: support your local innocence organizations as well as larger ones 699 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,439 Speaker 1: like Innocence Canada. I mean the money go a long 700 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 1: way with Innocence Canada, believe me, and we'll have their 701 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 1: site linked in the bio. So now we come, of course, 702 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: to my favorite part of the show. Closing Arguments is 703 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: the section of the show where first of all, I 704 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: thank you all of you for being here and sharing 705 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: this unreal story. I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick 706 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: back in my chair with my headphones on, if I 707 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: close my eyes and just zone in on whatever else 708 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: you want to share. Bobin, please start us off, and 709 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: then I'll leave it up to you to hand the 710 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,440 Speaker 1: mic off to whoever you want to have go next, 711 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: and then the other guy will take us off into 712 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: the sunset. 713 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 3: The only thing I will say is, for almost fifty years, 714 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 3: Brian and Alan have maintained their innocence. They have spent 715 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 3: the majority of their life marked as murderers, and yet 716 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,360 Speaker 3: every day, both of them wake up, continue to fight 717 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 3: to clear their name. And you know, as Jason mentioned 718 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 3: in one of the parole reports that I read, they 719 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,360 Speaker 3: talk about Brian's session with his innocence, and in both 720 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 3: Brian and Allen's case, their obsession with proving their innocence 721 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 3: has never wavered. Their story is one of enduring strength, determination, 722 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 3: and perseverance. 723 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,920 Speaker 5: Yes, well, I got to keep crying. I can't give up. 724 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 5: I need but I need help. I there's nothing I can. 725 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 4: Do by myself. 726 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 5: Whoever's out there we can help, will even better. 727 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:29,560 Speaker 4: That's what I need. 728 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you very much for having me here. There 729 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 2: was a great privilege to be here. I would like 730 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,040 Speaker 2: the audience and all that. You know, we always think 731 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 2: about justice, but justice has to come soon. I can't 732 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 2: just steal happen and then nothing, nothing happens. So we 733 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 2: have to make a decision. This review has to come 734 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 2: to an end at some point. I just wish they'd 735 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,440 Speaker 2: make a decision quickly because just think also are stressful, 736 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 2: the fact that this is hanging over you. Well, when 737 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: am I getting out? You know why? Am I getting out? 738 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 2: Day in and day out? You know it? Just where's 739 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:13,879 Speaker 2: the oat? Psychologically dreaming. Please be aware of that there's 740 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 2: a lot of injustice in this world, and it's people, 741 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 2: and we always think it'll never happen to me, but 742 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,360 Speaker 2: it does happen. I certainly never told you what happened 743 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: to me. 744 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 745 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis, 746 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 747 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 748 00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 749 00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 750 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 751 00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 752 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flahm. Ravel Conviction is 753 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 754 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one