1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 1: before we get into the podcast, uh, I just want 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: to mention real quick we have a new sponsor, UM 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: new sponsor Netflix, So pay attention. Uh tune back in 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: later on in the podcast, We're gonna have a special 8 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: offer related to Netflix. And now for the topic of today, Yeah, 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: this one stems from your recent journey to New York 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: for the World Science Festival two thousand twelve. How was it? 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: I like how you say journey like I was in 12 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: a covered wagon. Well, it's kind of a you have 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: to go to Atlanta's airport, so that is a journey 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: in and of it so traumatic. It was wonderful. World 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: Science Festival two thousand and twelve. UM got to see 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: a lot of really cool panels and one of them 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: was UM the Science of Narrative, and it had a 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: bunch of people on it UM including Joyce Carol Oates, 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: one of my favorite authors, I mean, uh so it 20 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: was great to see her talk about the process of 21 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: writing and UM. Dr Kevin Oatley was another person's psychologist 22 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: who who talked about several others I don't have. Yeah, 23 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: Jeffrey eugen needs uh like Eugene and I d e 24 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: yes at the end if I'm saying that correctly. He's 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: also the author of Virgin Suicide and he read and 26 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: I think the marriage plotted this new one, right, Yes, 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: but he read an incredible um excerpt from Virgin Suicides 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: to talk about some of what we'll talk about today, 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: which is how readers are engaged in this world and 30 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: meant to feel as though they occupy it themselves so 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: much so that they began to um to really feel 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: a reality in the text. And it's and what's awesome 33 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: about that too, is that sometimes the reality is you're 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: immersed in or kind of Nightmark Joyce Carol Oates, for example. 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: I recently read her book Zombie, which is kind of 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: a fictionalized narrative based on the life of Jeffrey Dahmer. 37 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: So you have a very disturbed individual who is plotting 38 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: and trying to carry out these murders so that he 39 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: can create a zombie out of somebody and keep them 40 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: in his seller as a it's like kind of a 41 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: sex slave. So it's a very dark tale, but you're 42 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: so immersed in the narrative you find yourself kind of 43 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: rooting for the guy. I mean, you're feeling for him 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: because she's a talented writer, and via the narrative experience, 45 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: you kind of become this character and on some level 46 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: you want him to succeed. And it's it can be 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: a very weird feeling in some of these It really 48 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: messes with your mind. And that's really what we're gonna 49 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: talk about today. We're gonna talk about this idea that 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: that fiction we usually think of as separate from ourselves, 51 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: but the idea is can fiction transform our reality? And 52 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: we were discussing this earlier that you know, usually you think, okay, 53 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: the truth is stranger than fiction, but sometimes that truth 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: is actually inspired by fiction. And um, what I'm thinking 55 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: about and what we talked about is, uh, this incredibly 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 1: bizarre spate of bath salts that have been in the news. 57 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: And by the time this airs will probably have a 58 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: lot more information about this. But uh, if you guys 59 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: haven't heard about this, this is actually a designer drug 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: that is running a monk. Yeah. Not, it's not actually 61 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: bath salts, So you don't have to worry about. Oh 62 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: my goodness, my grandma has some of those. She's going 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: to have, right, She's gonna go have a cawgullan moment 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: and then turn into a zombie. No. Uh, what we're 65 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: talking about here again as a designer drug and the 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: key ingredients UM that go into it or something called 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: m D p V and I won't go way into that. 68 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: Just think of it as a sort of like a 69 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: cross between meth and acid because the nervous him really 70 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: kicks in to overdrive and then a hallucinogenic state takes hold. Well, 71 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: you know, math is pretty bad, but but maybe the 72 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: ideas here maybe if you had acid to it, if 73 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: he experiences somehow better. So let's talk about what we're 74 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: talking about. You mentioned the guy eating the other dudes face. 75 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean basically, I think the scenario was 76 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: you went out of town for a week and then 77 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: it seemed like the zombie holocaust. Almost coincidence, I don't know. Well, 78 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: we did. We had the incident with in Miami with 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: the individual who allegedly on bath salts. UH is running 80 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: around naked under an overpass. UH strips the homeless man 81 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: and eats most of his face. Off eighteen minutes. Yeah, 82 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: and then the police finally show up and uh, and 83 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: he like turns around and snarls at them, and they 84 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: end up shooting him down there in the street. And 85 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: that alone was pretty crazy. And then you had all 86 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: these other incidents that were showing up, incidents that involve 87 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: someone confessing to acts of cannibalism, man Um disemboweling himself 88 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: and throwing his guts at police officers when they came 89 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 1: to attend to him, which incidentally reminds me of a 90 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: great scene from the Hong Kong film Story of Ricky 91 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: and which, oh, the Ballad of Rickie Yeah, yeah, and 92 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: which it's like a prison movie with the most over 93 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 1: the top violence everyon. There's a scene where an individual 94 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: um is he gets beat by Ricky because Ricky is 95 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: like a superman and he has to fight these these 96 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: other villains inside the prison, and the gore effects are 97 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: super cheesy but but kind of awesome. Like there's so 98 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: it's so cartoony, you don't really feel the violence at all. 99 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: But there's a character that Um splits his stomach in 100 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: an act of sepku and then reaches in and grabs 101 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: his own intestines out and starts strangling Ricky with them, 102 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: and uh, it's hilarious, slash gross and also kind of awesome. Yeah, 103 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: but but it's the kind of thing it's hilarious slash gross. 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: When it's encountered in a cheesy Hong Kong martial arts, 105 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: perfectly fine there, but when it happens on the evening news, 106 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: it is troubling. Well, and you know that the thread 107 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: through all of these is that is zombie like behavior, 108 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: right right, Mindless, flat, cheating behavior, cannot be reasoned with, 109 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: can only be apparently gunned down on the streets like 110 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: a dog. It's troubling because it's one of those that 111 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: we we've been laughing about zombies for years now. I 112 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: mean it's become it's become to the point where we're 113 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: almost a little sick of it. Well, and it is 114 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: so much in the culture, right, I mean, The Walking 115 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: Dead is a show that is enormously popular from the 116 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: graphic novel. Yeah, the CDC had in sort of Jess 117 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: had Zombie Survival Kit about a year ago. Yeah, because 118 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: they were raising i think we've mentioned in a past episode, 119 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: they were raising legitimate concerns about um, about diseases and 120 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: the spread of disease and how to limit them, and 121 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: how to respond to a situation where there's been sort 122 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: of an outbreak or pandemic. All important stuff to know, 123 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: and they were just sort of using zombies as a 124 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: cool launching point to discuss that topic, and so you 125 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: can kind of understand why the spate of incidents happened. 126 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: And then people start to kind of go, wow, really, 127 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: is it, like the zombie theme is fiction like that 128 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: so deeply ingrained that is being um acted out in 129 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: these very particular cases. Yeah, like me, because at first, 130 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: first people to comment and we're probably, hey, looks like 131 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: the zombie apocalypse is is happening, And then they were like, oh, seriously, 132 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: maybe it is, and they remind himself, no, that's impossible. 133 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: But maybe something is going on in our minds where 134 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: the idea of the zombie is so ingrained in us 135 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: from our fiction that it ends up boiling to the 136 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: surface of our reality. Well, CNN interviewed a former Bath 137 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: Salts user. Granted this is just one person, but Freddy 138 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: Sharp is his name, and he described his own experience 139 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: with great Bath Salt user name Freddie Sharp. I know 140 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: because it's got the Freddie from nightmare on Elm Street too, Um, 141 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: Freddy Sharp anyway, it's got that sort of image. But anyway, 142 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: Freddie described his experience when he was strapped into a 143 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: gurney in restrained by a paramedic. He said that when 144 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: he was hallucinating about being in he was hallucinating about 145 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: being in a mental hospital and being possessed by Jason 146 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: Vorheis of you know Friday thirteenth. Oh he I figured 147 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: which one that is. There's a particular Friday thirteenth film 148 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: where Jason Vorhees does possess people. It's generally not highly 149 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: thought of in the in the saga, right, but he 150 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: does have bases uh in cannon for that behavior. Just 151 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: but it is it's very odd to see that. I mean, 152 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: it's not on to know that we have this dark 153 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: side of our psyches and that we have these themes, 154 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: these horror themes that are couched there. I mean they 155 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: could be the fairy tales that we read when we 156 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: were little, or it could be you know Oedipus right, 157 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: um gouging out his own eyes, or Friday thirteenth or zombies. Um. 158 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: I think what's scary is just to see that, you know, 159 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: some of it is being played out. But we what 160 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: we really want to talk about is is why we 161 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: have these bits of fiction, these bits of storytelling in 162 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: our minds. Um, it's so deeply entrenched in our minds, 163 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: yet how we are actually working in concert with the material. Yeah, 164 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: because there's the there's one view on everything where you 165 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: and this is the view that absolutely doesn't hold up 166 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: to the research. But he's still encounter inmplity of people 167 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: where fiction it's fairy tales, it is for kids, it's 168 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: the it's like it's this bubble of fantasy or this 169 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: bucket of fantasy that you stick your head into when 170 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: you don't want to deal with everything else. Just pure escapism, 171 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: no connection to real issues, reality or anything. I've spoken 172 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: to at least one friend of mine about the topic 173 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: where he has to actually defend reading fiction to his father, 174 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: who's who's who's totally into the nonfiction and you know, 175 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: philosophical historical work, so what have you, And he has 176 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: to actually defend fiction is a worthwhile thing to read. 177 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: And I imagine that that's that's the sort of mindset 178 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: he's coming from. The father in this case, is that 179 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: fantasy and fiction is something that exists outside of the 180 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: norm and is completely detached. But as we'll see in 181 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: this episode, and as we saw in our research chere, 182 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: the the roots of fiction uh are totally interwoven with 183 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: our reality. Yeah. I mean basically, your friend and other 184 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: listeners who may need to defend their own fiction consumption 185 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: habits or should emerge from this podcast with a list 186 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: of bullet points about why you should read it. Um. 187 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: And one of the things we want to talk about 188 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: is how we lose ourselves in fiction and how that's 189 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: so important to something called theory of mind. Yes, so 190 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: the theory of mind, um, which I'm sure we've discussed 191 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 1: this in the past, but uh, it entails the ability 192 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 1: of one person to understand another's perspective, all right, to 193 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: empathize with, communicate with, to deceive and uh, if you'll 194 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: think back to Blade Runner, uh, the motion picture, they 195 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: had an empathy test to tell if someone was replicant android, 196 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: a fake human, or a real human and uh, and 197 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: it was a rather elaborate test, but that we actually 198 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 1: have a test that we can use, particularly on children, 199 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: because the theory of mine only kicks in after a 200 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: certain point. But this test is called the false belief test, 201 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: and it goes like this, Child one and Child Too 202 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: are playing with a marble in a room. When they're done, 203 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: they put the marble in a box. Child one leaves 204 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: and child Too takes the marble out and puts it 205 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: in a bag. When Child one returns to the room, 206 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 1: where will she look for the marble? The correct answer is, 207 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: of course, the box where she left it last. But 208 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: children under the age of four always picked the bag 209 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: because they lack theory of mind. And so some researchers 210 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: argue that this is because before that age they lack 211 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: the necessary language fluency to actually deal with the reality. Um. 212 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: There was a New Scientist article from two thousand nine 213 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: called language Maybe the Key to Theory of mind um 214 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 1: And in that article they take a look at a 215 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: fascinating case from Nicaragua in which a community of deaf 216 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: people created their own sign language. And then so they 217 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: create it on sign language, and the next generation improved 218 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: on that sign language, and when given the false belief test, 219 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: the younger members with a more advanced sign language performed 220 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: better on the test. And we see that too with 221 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 1: kids who are who have a steady diet of fiction. Right, 222 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: they get a more nuanced idea of how other people's 223 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: minds work, because that is what theory of mind is 224 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 1: really for. It's this idea that you could kind of 225 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: map out someone else's intentions. So when you read fiction, 226 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you're able to exercise this ability. 227 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: You identify with the character's longings and frustrations. You can 228 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: guess that they're hidden motives, their agendas, um and the 229 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 1: relationships in their lives. So this is a way of 230 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: of your brain trying to occupy someone else. That's really 231 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: and this is actually called experience taking. And when you 232 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: are lost in fiction, it's a little bit different from 233 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: perspective taking. Right, perspective taking you can just kind of say, 234 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: I identify, I get what this person is going through. 235 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: Experience taking is taking those experiences for your own. And 236 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: researchers at Ohio State University observed what happened when study 237 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: participants lost themselves in fiction. Uh. They took a bunch 238 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: of students and they had them read an engaging story 239 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: about a person who had overcome adversities in order to 240 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: vote that day, and they gave several different scenarios um 241 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: of this, uh, this piece of fiction, and one of 242 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: the different scenarios was that the the protagonists went to 243 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: the same school as the fiction readers, right, and you 244 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: know another protagonist did not go to the same school. 245 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: So what they found is that the people who um 246 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: who read the story about the protagonist going to the 247 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 1: same school as them, were something like sixty five per 248 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: cent uh likely to actually vote themselves or did vote 249 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: themselves um when they had to vote, you know, the 250 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: next week or so an election, as compared to the 251 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: readers who read about a protectonist from another school. So 252 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: what you're seeing is that actually like clear line of 253 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: action from this piece of fiction that they were absorbed 254 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: in this person's trials and errors and trying to get 255 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: to vote this this um you know, these obstacles in 256 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: this protagonist way to try to vote, and they felt 257 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: so in line with her that it actually influenced their behavior. 258 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: It's um. I mean, it's crazy when you think about 259 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: like the nature of story, because on one level of 260 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: the story is how we remember things. That's how we 261 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: process things that have happened to us. The discussing is 262 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: this in the past, you you take a series of 263 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: events that just happened, you form the story in your mind. 264 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: In which you were the center character or if you're 265 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: being if you're able to empathize and use that theory 266 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: of mind, then you're you're creating that's a similar story 267 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: around another person to enhance your understanding of them. But 268 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: stories stories even really exist, are they? They're kind of 269 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: this linguistic viral thing that we have created to make 270 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: sense of the world and to to serve as the 271 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: bedrock for a culture. You know, because it's you. You 272 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: take it the most accurate nonfiction book, the most not 273 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: actuate accurate nonfiction story available, and you can still probably 274 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: poke holes in it. You can say, is this really 275 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: what is? Is Is this really what happened? And you have 276 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: to say, no, it is a structure of what happened. 277 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: It is a structuring of events and characters and people 278 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: and attitudes and emotions, um, that is presented in the 279 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: form of story. Yeah. And I do think it is 280 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: interesting that a lot of it has to do in 281 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: the way that it is presented, right, um, to to 282 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: motivate people. UM. And I mean I'm thinking about a 283 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: different study. Um. It was it was Ohio State as well, 284 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: and this one had to do with sexuality and it 285 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: was administered to seventy heterosexual men. And so again they 286 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: have this narrative of this young man in different scenarios. 287 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: In one scenario he's pretty much outed at the beginning, um. 288 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: And another scenario he's outed later in the story and um, 289 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: and in the third he's heterosexual. Well, what happened is 290 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: that they found that, um, the people's attitudes towards this 291 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: character when he was late outed, they felt much more um, 292 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: accepting of him as homosexual when they found out after 293 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: after sort of identifying with him, after going through this 294 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: journey with him in this story, as opposed to when 295 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: he was at it at the very beginning. And so 296 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: that's why I think it's so fascinating that a lot 297 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: of it has to do in the in the way 298 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: that um, we present the details, that we create these 299 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: sort of realities, um, and that it would actually affect 300 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: how we perceive people. Yeah, I mean it's and you 301 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: can kind of look at it too in terms of 302 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: a nonfiction book, especially a nonfiction book about say, political issues. 303 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: It's one person saying, hey, this is how the world works, 304 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: and this is how it works best versus how it 305 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: is broken, Whereas a narrative puts you in the shoes 306 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: of someone experiencing some uh some some level of those events, 307 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: and be it something that is supporting the uh an 308 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: idea or opposing it. You know, you're you're put in 309 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: those shoes. Well, let's let's crack a bit a little 310 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 1: bit of science here and talk about mirror neurons and 311 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: why we react the way we do to narratives, whether 312 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: it's a text for a piece of music or a movie. 313 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: All right, So the phase mirror neurons or mirror neurons, 314 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: if you want to say it together, refers to neurons 315 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: in the frontal cortex that fire both when you do 316 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: something and when you see something else being done when 317 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: you see someone else doing it. Okay, Uh, The and 318 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: and very important here a subset of these neurons fires 319 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,239 Speaker 1: during your own actions, um, but inhibit when you just 320 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: observe actions. So, uh, that way, the mirror neuron systems 321 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: signal whether the action in question is your own or 322 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: somebody else's. Right, So that way, you're not acting on 323 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: what you're seeing. Right. So if you know that you're 324 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be the passive observer, then you don't 325 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 1: try to go out on the baseball field. He'll and 326 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, try to hick that ball. UM. So yeah, 327 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: I mean, actually that's that's a good example. When you 328 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: perform an action like throwing a baseball for the first time, 329 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: this behavior gets encoded in a clutch of brain cells. 330 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: But um scientists discovered that these brain cells also fire, 331 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: as you say, when you see someone else perform the 332 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: same action. And it also ends up sucking in emotional 333 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: entanglement as well. And that's where it really gets interesting. 334 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: And if you want to see an example of this, 335 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: I invite you to view any sporting event, because you're 336 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: seeing your neurons. You your neurons. It's like the mirror neurons. 337 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: These are mirror neurons in action. When you go to 338 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: the sporting event and you see a rabid crowd who's 339 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: totally into the action on the field. Clearly there is 340 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: one small group of people who are playing a game 341 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 1: and being paid for it, and h then there is 342 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 1: there is another group of people, a larger group of 343 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 1: people that have paid to see the game and are 344 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: not actually directly involved in the action, but their enthusiasm 345 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: for it at times seems to not only equal but 346 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: surpass that of the individuals on the field. And it 347 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: it comes down to mirror neurons. They're able to observe 348 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: the actions of another UH compared to their own experience, 349 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 1: and the emotional context becomes intertwined between the two. What 350 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: I think is really interesting is what happens when someone 351 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: reads a text right, like, how do you know how 352 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: they're reacting to that? UM? And it turns out that 353 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: you can actually map metaphor in the brain using m 354 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: r I. Researchers from Emory University had subjects read a 355 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: metaphor metaphor and meta far metaphor UH involving texture, and 356 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: the sensory cortex lit up here, and that the sensory 357 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: cortex is responsible for perceiving texture through tough right, that 358 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: became active. So you had metaphors like the singer had 359 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: a velvet voice and he had a leathery hand, and 360 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: this roused the sensory cortex, while phrases that matched for meaning, 361 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: like the singer had a pleasing voice and he had 362 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: strong hands did not. And I think that is what's 363 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: so interesting about why our mind does engage so fiercely 364 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: with literature or you know, really any kind of fiction, 365 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: because again, you're in that theory of mind and your 366 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: brain is reacting um to these words. I love that. 367 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: I love that a leathery hand can can make your 368 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: sensory cortex go nuts. Um. And then in a study 369 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: led by the cognitive scientists Veronica of the Laboratory of 370 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: Language Dynamics in France, UM, she had them scan um 371 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: words like or rather sentences like John grass the object 372 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: and Pablo kicked the ball, and the m rs revealed 373 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: that there was of course activity in the motor cortex. 374 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: So to me, what this says is that storytelling fiction 375 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: is really I mean, if we've from more motor cortex, 376 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: is is kind of lighting up here. All of this 377 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: is really important into the way that we actually developed 378 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: as human beings. That storytelling is intrinsic um to actually 379 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: motivating us and motivating the different parts of our body. Um, 380 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: it's not just you know, part of our language center 381 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: that is passive. Yeah. I found it interesting that, you know, 382 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: discussions of how mere and neurons allowed us to to 383 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: survive in an early stage because we're able to put 384 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,719 Speaker 1: our mind inside the mind of say a predatory animal 385 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: or an animal that is surviving a winner. We see 386 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: all the bear is surviving, and we can put ourselves 387 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: in its footsteps in a way that it just cannot do. Um. 388 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: And and then I the idea too that near and 389 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: neurons allow us to, uh, especially with metaphor, to essentially 390 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: run a simulation based on that metaphor. Metaphor enters in 391 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: and we, no matter how silly or tried, the metaphor, 392 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: and some level we can't help but fulfill it. To 393 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: take one of the most famous metaphors in the English language, 394 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: coaches from William Shakespeare from As You Like It says, 395 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 1: all the world's a stage, and all the men and 396 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 1: women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, 397 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: so you can't help it on some level. Imagine then 398 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: everyone in your life standing on this stage, following these lines, 399 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: entering in and out, and then they're there. Are various 400 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: ramifications of what that scenario means. Likewise, metaphors that don't 401 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: really work kind of fall flat because of that. Take, 402 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: for instance, UH, this famous line she's a brick house. Now, 403 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: obviously in the same way that we're not actually all 404 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: players on a stage, she whoever she is, is not 405 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: actually a brick house. And when I try to imagine 406 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: this mysterious her as a brick house. It never works 407 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: for me. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just imagine 408 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: a woman made out of ricks. Well, this is it's 409 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: attached to the song now, so of course there are 410 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: parts of my brain that are singing it. Yea, the 411 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: song is the song is is great. So it manages 412 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: to make it fooliss into thinking that this means something 413 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: where I'm not convinced it actually means anything, or if 414 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: it means anything, it means that someone made a woman 415 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: out of bricks, which is kind of cool too. Yeah, 416 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: I kind of go alem kind of way. I guess, yeah, yeah, 417 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: well it's a funky way, right, and then then get 418 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: down way. Um, but I think it's just so cool too. 419 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: About you know, seeing that these mirror neurons are firing 420 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: in the motor cortex, is that it's not just the 421 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: motor cortex. It's actually like corresponding with what you're seeing. 422 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: So if you're seeing someone pitch baseball, then your motor 423 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: cortex neurons are firing, and and um, what would be 424 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: related to the area that moves your arm and uh, 425 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: and then also if you see someone playing soccer and 426 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 1: you see the lake movements, then it's the same thing 427 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: that that they're specific to with part of your body. 428 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: So it's not just like, hey, this is the part 429 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: of the of my brain that makes me move my limbs. 430 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: It's your specific limbs. So yeah, I don't know. I'm 431 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 1: burto echo. In his ugly it was in his book 432 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: of essays, Six Walks in the Fictional Woods. Um, he 433 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: spends a lot of time discussing just the nature of fiction, 434 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: and he discusses it on all levels. He's talking about 435 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: literary stuff, he's talking about comic books, he's talking about 436 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: b movies, and he's talking about pornography at times, all 437 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: levels of storytelling. By the way, this perfectly, this whole 438 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: conversation about mirror neurons explains pornography, right Like if anybody's 439 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: ever wondered why exists, which I don't think anybody probably 440 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: wonders that this is the reason right here right well indeed, 441 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: and the Echo goes into this a lot in in 442 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: that book. I recommend picking it up. But he discusses 443 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: particularly the use of everyday activities in certain books and 444 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: certain films. For instance, he specifically mentions the James Bond novels, 445 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: which if you read, say, Doctor No, a lot of 446 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: crazy stuff happening, and the Bond is picting shooting people. 447 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: I believe in Dr No. In the book itself, he 448 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: wrestles a giant squid. It's easier to forget when people 449 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: get all up tied about about the purity of James 450 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: Bond and fiction versus film. Just remember he did wrestle 451 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: a giant squid. Ones But but then, a lot of 452 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: time is devoted in these books to Bond having dinner, 453 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: to Bond eating things um or Bond having coffee, Bond 454 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: doing things that we can relate to. Most of us 455 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: cannot relate to being shot in the shoulder or wrestling 456 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: a giant squid. There's only we can only become so 457 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: immersed in bad activity. But if the author immerses us 458 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: in these other activities that we do have experience with. 459 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: Although I will say this, I was watching True Blood 460 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 1: and there's just one point in which, um, someone stabbed 461 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 1: another person in the hand with a fork. Now that's 462 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: not the first time I've watched that on film at 463 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: least um, But I immediately pulled my hand up because 464 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: you can relate to something like that far more than 465 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: you can to uh. I mean horr movies are a 466 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: great example of this, and and directors who understand horror 467 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: and how a version works for the viewer get this. 468 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 1: If someone loses an arm, if like Arnold Swartz narrogets 469 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: his arm blown off in a film or something, um, 470 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: we can't relate to that. Most of us cannot relate 471 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: to that. What that could be would be like it's 472 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: it's out of our experience. However, if you have a 473 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: character hold up their hand against someone like strikes at 474 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: him a machete and they get a cut across the 475 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: palm or something like that, or even like a paper 476 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: cut times ten or yeah, yeah, we can relate or 477 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: just a paper cut. Have someone get paper cut in 478 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: the film, you have an entire horror film based on 479 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: paper cuts, you know. But but we can relate to that. 480 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: It's a more of an everyday event. And uh in 481 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: any way, Burtlecca goes into it a lot more doubt. 482 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: He also gets into the use of every day I 483 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: think it's car rides that he discusses in Like the 484 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: way to tell if you're watching a regular film or 485 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: pornographic film is how long a car ride last in 486 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: the film. The longer at last more likely that you're 487 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: watching a pornographic film. All right, Okay, there we go. 488 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: It's a marker. Um. All right, we're going to take 489 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,719 Speaker 1: a quick break, but when we get back, we're going 490 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: to talk about empathy and fiction. Can can you increase 491 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: your own empathy through fiction? And is there a downside 492 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: the fiction? Alright, we're back. So empathy and fiction, as 493 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: we mentioned, are there via mirror neurons, via theory of mine. 494 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: We're reading these stories and we cannot help but become 495 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,439 Speaker 1: immersed in that character, be it James Bond wrestling a squid, 496 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,719 Speaker 1: or um the character in Zombie trying to kidnap somebody 497 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: and keep them in their basement. Alright, so of course 498 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: I have to mentioned study okay by Washington and Lee 499 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: psychologist Dan Johnson. He had people read a short story 500 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: that was specifically written to induce compassion in the reader, 501 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: and he wanted to see not only a fiction increased empathy, 502 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: but whether it would lead to actually helping someone. So 503 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: he found that the more absorbed subjects were in the story, 504 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: the more empathy they felt, and the more empathy they felt, 505 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: the more likely the subjects were to help. When the 506 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: experiment er accidentally in quotation marks UH dropped a handful 507 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: of pens. UH. The highly absorbed readers were twice as 508 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: likely to help out, which I thought was interesting that presumably, 509 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: UM the researcher does this while they're reading and they're 510 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: absorbed in the text. I would think that that would 511 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: be they would be so absorbed that they wouldn't even 512 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: notice the pens dropping. But that's a that's one little 513 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: test that has been carried out. And then there are 514 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: studies published in two thousand and six and two thousand 515 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: and nine by Dr Keith Oatley. This is the guy 516 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: that was at the World Science Festival UH. He reports 517 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: the individuals who frequently read fiction performed better on theory 518 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: of mind tests regardless of gender. Because we've heard this 519 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: before that women are are more compassionate or have more empathy, 520 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: and UH is sometimes pointed to because of more mirror 521 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: neurons that they possessed. UM. But one such theory of 522 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: mind test is called the mind's eye test, which participants 523 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: look at photos of nothing but people's eyes and then 524 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: have to describe what the people are feeling. We took 525 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: this on the Facebook, didn't we? We did you? It 526 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 1: fits the stereo thoughts you actually perform better on it 527 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: than I did. I get a thirty on it, which 528 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: is something. Yeah, I think the normal range is like 529 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: thirty and anything over thirty like your super empathizer or 530 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: something like that. So what is bad under under two? Okay, 531 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm good. Yeah, you're cleared it by a couple points there. Um. 532 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: But there's this idea that you could actually increase your 533 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 1: own empathy through reading fiction. Hi is just sort of interesting, right, 534 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: because it's helpful if you decrede stuff like flat land 535 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: like flatland and flatland fan fiction. W you're just reading 536 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: about shades. Well, you know what. Here's the thing, though, 537 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: is that you ascribe meaning to nearly anything. So there's 538 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: this is a really cool um thing that they did 539 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: at the panel about the narrative of um or the 540 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: science of narrative. They actually showed a film of a circle, 541 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: a square, and um a triangle and anyway, the shapes 542 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: move around inside this box and they kind of do 543 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: things to each other. And after they share the film, 544 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: they say that, how how many of you saw a 545 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: story in this? And nearly everyone except for like one guy, 546 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: raise their hand and then they sort to say, well, 547 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: who saw a female and then other people say, who 548 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 1: saw a male who saw someone trying to trap this 549 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: other person in a room, and it was amazing, Like, 550 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: we can't help but to create these stories. So we 551 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: talked story of five like mad gods. Um. But then 552 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: there there comes a question could there be a possible 553 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: downside to this? Well? Um, I mean the big thing 554 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: here is that by engaging us uh in these stories 555 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: that that often have have important social context to them, 556 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: we can we can use fiction to change the world 557 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: for the better. But if we can change and when 558 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: we say change the world, obviously none of these stories 559 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: they are altering physical reality, but they can adjust culture 560 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: in the way we view the world, um, such as 561 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: the way some sitcoms are able to change the way 562 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: and or influence the way that we view various social issues. 563 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: All Right, there have been a bunch of studies that 564 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: say that when people identify with characters like such as um, 565 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: the gay characters there, that people are that more accepting 566 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: of them. Or even our current vice president said that 567 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: when talking about the gay marriage issue. UM, he said 568 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: that he was really one over from watching what was which, 569 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: which everyone got to laugh out of that, but it 570 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: it lines up exactly with what we know about the 571 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: power of of fiction and particularly popular media to alter 572 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: the way that we view the world. So that's the thing, right, 573 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: because when you are involved in fiction or some sort 574 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 1: of narrative that is fictitious, you lose your sense of skepticism. 575 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: And the researchers have seen this over and over again. 576 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: When you are reading something that you know that is nonfiction, 577 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: then you're apt to be much more critical of it, 578 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: analyze a lot more. But if you know you're in 579 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: a story, or you're lulled into a story, I guess 580 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 1: you could say, um, then you you do lose skepticism. 581 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: So if one sitcom could could influence me and help 582 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: me decide that, yes, this group of people deserve rights 583 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: that they don't have, could another sitcompetentially make me say 584 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: this group of people do not deserve certain rights? Well, um, yeah, actually, 585 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: I mean that's that's the fear. Here. There's Jonathan Gotshall 586 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: who is also on the panel. He wrote something called 587 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: The Story Storytelling Animal has said that we are suckers 588 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: for story. Lab studies show that we are deeply absorbed 589 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: in a story. We lose our skepticism and we can 590 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: be made to feel and believe just about anything the 591 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: storyteller wants. And he actually brought up on the panel 592 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: that that's mainly good. But then you think about the 593 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: nineteen fifteen film The Birth of a Nation, which inflamed 594 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: racist sentiments. This is the one where the clickklux klansmen 595 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: or are riding around like victorious nights, um and uh, 596 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: and they're fighting the evil um black man. It's I mean, 597 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: it's it's it's. It's a very interesting and important film 598 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: in terms of film history. And and if you've ever 599 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: taken a history of film class, you've probably seen it 600 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 1: or seen parts of it. Um. But it is not 601 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: enforcing um good moral ideas right right, and it has 602 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 1: I mean the plotline obviously has been manipulated to in 603 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: do certain feelings and that actually did um that that 604 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: gave sort of new life to the KLi klux klan 605 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: um when the film was shown. So you know, he 606 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: says it can go both ways. Um. There's also the 607 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: idea of over consumption of media. Now when I say that, well, 608 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: I see this this is for an entirely different podcast, um, 609 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 1: but I thought it was interesting to mention. And when 610 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: I when I stayed media, I'm talking about games or gaming. UM. 611 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: Computer scientists Stuart Staniford says that the room this is 612 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting. I mean it's a little bit 613 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 1: out there. Said that as the robot population surpasses humans 614 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: and takes most of our jobs, but the least disruptive 615 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: approach to managing this is for the underclass to disappear 616 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: into technology mediated secondary universes um and that he can't 617 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: help but see video games imagined here is a widely 618 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: used opiate. So this is the Yeah, this is this 619 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,479 Speaker 1: idea of over consumption. Because you know, there's there's this 620 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 1: um other idea that back in the day, if you 621 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: wanted a good story, you hope that someone in your 622 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: circle was a really great aural storyteller. Right yeah, you 623 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: would have someone tell that story, that story, or that 624 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: joke or that whatever, that narrative experience. Let's go and 625 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: hear it. The storytellers come into town, you know, let's go, 626 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: let's go hear what they have to say. But now that, 627 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you can have any type of story any 628 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: which way you want it, um from myriad bits of media, 629 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: right um. And so there's an idea that it's really 630 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 1: similar to an obesity epidemic that we evolved in a 631 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: world where food was scarce, so we're very comfortable right now. 632 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: And and so that you have this idea of like 633 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: there's too much on the plate for us to consume. 634 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: Because back in the old days they were there were 635 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: only so many stories that could think really, they passed around. 636 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: You had you had the creation story, the end of 637 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: the world story. Um, and it is important, I guess 638 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 1: when I'm you know, half joking there. But but but 639 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: certainly in the olden days you had all these stories 640 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: that that had definite meanings, that were important culturally, that 641 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: culturally that were the bedrock upon which civilization existed. Um. 642 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: I mean you had stories in which positive values were 643 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: tested and found to be held true, negative values are 644 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: tested and found to be false. Where something simple has 645 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: proven complex, where something complex has proven simple, where the 646 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: other has proven normal than normal has proven other. I mean, 647 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: these are all about maintaining a certain worldview. And today 648 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: are our stories of We have more of them, and 649 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: some of them are are less involved in maintaining the 650 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: fabric of our reality, but they're all still uh engaging 651 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: in that conversation on one level or another. Well, and 652 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: to that point, I wanted to to to leave you 653 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,800 Speaker 1: with this um. This quote from Jonathan Gottshaw um about 654 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,720 Speaker 1: storytelling and no matter how much we consume or don't consume, 655 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: he says, humans aren't really Earthlings. Above all, we are 656 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,240 Speaker 1: citizens of an omnidimensional virtual world called Storyland. Of course, 657 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: our bodies are always fixed at a particular time and 658 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: place on planet Earth. But our minds are always free 659 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: to voyage in Storyland, and they you, They voyage through 660 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: stories from most of the day and into the night. 661 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: It's wrong to think of story as a mirror frill 662 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: in human life. We live most of our lives in 663 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: various kinds of story. Story, as much as upright posture, 664 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: tool use, language, or intelligence, is what makes us human. 665 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: So I thought was really interesting because we talked about 666 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 1: even daydreaming, that that we uh, we daydream like half 667 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: of our waking hours away. Right, I'm sorry, what are 668 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: you saying? Nice? Nice? All right, Well, let's pull open 669 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,439 Speaker 1: the mail bag, bring it over here. I think it's funny. 670 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: You calm robot, but I call him Arnie. We have 671 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 1: a different relationship with robot. You have more empathy. You 672 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: you're firing up more of those mirror neurons. Do you 673 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 1: think he has a limp? It looks like he's not 674 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: walking correctly. All right, So here's a little bit of 675 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: listener mail from Ann and Wrightson says, sorry for the 676 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: slow response. I've been meaning to write until you have tickled. 677 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 1: I was to hear your honorary air response my email below, 678 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: and her email was the one about uh where she 679 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,319 Speaker 1: said words and it was about how I used frank 680 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: and beans to describe penis and yes, to do it 681 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: again with kind okay, but anyway, she was responding to 682 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: to that, and and and we we addressed it, you know, 683 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: and and sort of we gave our perspective on on 684 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: presenting material for various age groups and all. Anyway, she 685 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,760 Speaker 1: continues and says, it gave me an entirely new perspective 686 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: on some of the pressures and issues you were dealing with. 687 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: I stand by my opinion, but definitely understand your position 688 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: better now see empathizing. I know we can't help ourselves. Um, 689 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 1: She says. I also wanted to let you know how 690 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: much I've been enjoying the Lucid Dreaming theme. I'm a 691 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: world class dreamer. Last night was a multi generational saga 692 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: set in the early nineteenth century night and often have 693 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: quite bizarre dreams, dreams within dreams, whatever. But despite decades 694 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,959 Speaker 1: of interest in the topic, I've never managed a lucid dream. 695 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: What I can't seem to do is make that first 696 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: step in the process, knowing that you're dreaming and taking control. 697 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: Oh well, it doesn't stop me from flying and sometimes 698 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: even underwater swimming, which is pretty cool and I think 699 00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: much more unusual. Good flying all the best, man, I'm 700 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: gonna try that underwater flying. Yeah, well, I've I've definitely 701 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 1: had underwater dreams before, like one where I was chasing 702 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: a sorcerer across the ocean floor. He had a book 703 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: or something. But the other night I just had one 704 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,280 Speaker 1: of those dreams where I thought I'd pee pee the beds. 705 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: So those aren't very exciting, but happy ending I could 706 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: not pee the bed. Oh my goodness, what have you 707 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: had these dreams before? Yes, I'm sorry, there's so much. 708 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: There's so many words there that I want to playoff of, 709 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,360 Speaker 1: but I won't out of interest of um keeping it 710 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: clean folks. Okay, Well, I just find it in right 711 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: because I was talking to a group of friends and 712 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: out of four or five of us, only two of 713 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: us claim to have had dreams in which they were 714 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: peeing that they it and then we'll to find find 715 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: that they had not. So oh well, you know, actually 716 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,480 Speaker 1: I do take that back now, and I'm focusing more. 717 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: Um yeah, my body is mainly it is basically saying, hey, 718 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: you need to get up and use the restroom. Yeah, 719 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: flying is better. I'm not. I'm something everybody wanted to know. 720 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: If there you go, let's keep to the flying all right. Well, hey, 721 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,719 Speaker 1: if you want to write into us and you want 722 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:27,840 Speaker 1: to let us know about your fiction versus reality, um idea, 723 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: Where do you stand on this? How do you think 724 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: fiction alters our perceptions of reality or does it, as 725 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: with the works of say Suttercane, actually change physical reality. 726 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: Let us know. You can find us on Facebook where 727 00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: we are Stuffed to Blow Your Mind, or you can 728 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 1: find us on Twitter where we are Blow the Mind, 729 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: and you can always drop us a line at Blew 730 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 1: the Mind at Discovery dot com. Be sure to check 731 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future. Join 732 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: How Stuff Work staff as we explore the most promising 733 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: and flexing possibilities of tomorrow.