1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man, the Myth, 4 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: the Legend. Super producer, mister Max Williams. 5 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: I am Max Williams. 6 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 3: Oh Man, yours was so much better than mine. I 7 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 3: just said that was okay, though I've never done that. 8 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: I think we've established the character though. I think we 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: got that part, oh for sure. 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 3: Have you guys noticed that when we, like, you're doing 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 3: the intro BN, I start like acting like I'm a 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 3: boxer getting ready for like I'm in the ring, you know, 13 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 3: throwing ghost punches and stuff. I'm just trying to hide 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 3: myself up get excited about about history that hard. 15 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 4: We like his Save Save You're an old brown. 16 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: I am bed Bull, and we are fellow Ridiculous Historians. 17 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: We are all unanimously fans of cartoons. Do you guys 18 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: ever check out the New Yorker cartoons? Do you remember 19 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: the Far Side, those kind of one panel shots. 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's sort of the New Yorker style, right, 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: the like one panel where there's lots of little Easter 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: eggs or there's like a couple of different reads on it, 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 3: and it's very you know, the art style is very 24 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 3: just so I had never thought about that. It was 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 3: the is it Far Side? Was that connected to the 26 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 3: New Yorker? 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 4: I didn't know that. 28 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: No, No, it's just the similar form for sure. 29 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 5: Now that makes sense. Also, have you guys ever seen 30 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 5: the show documentary? 31 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 2: Now? Of course they have that episode about the guy 32 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 2: who's trying to meet the Far. 33 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 4: Side Far Side Gary Lars. 34 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, he's trying to meet Gary Lars and he's like, 35 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 5: it's Fred Armison is playing the fictional character who's trying 36 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 5: to do that going around with his dad, and he's 37 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 5: like basically stalking Garylar. 38 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 4: That's not cool. We don't not for Gary. 39 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: We don't stalk our favorite cartoonist. I guess some people 40 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: maybe do. I wonder if Thomas Nast ever had a stalker. 41 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Ah, there we go. So recently, on our episode about PEZ, 42 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: we talked about some of the most expensive PEZ dispensers, 43 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: which were political gifts or political swag, you know, the 44 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: Republican Elephant, Democratic donkey. This launched conversation on and off 45 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: air about how those came to be because, as we know, 46 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: Benjamin Franklin originally wanted I think a turkey as a 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: political symbol because you were like, he was like, those 48 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: are right bastards. He was correct, for sure. 49 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 3: I mean turkey also seems like maybe more of a 50 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: it's still kind of a seasonal national bird. You know, 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 3: around Thanksgiving time, it seems like it temporarily replaces the eagle, 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 3: and then we go back to, you know, just worshiping 53 00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 3: the eagle for the rest of the year. 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: You know, I wanted to do a turkey partning episode. 55 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: The story is relatively straightforward, but it's kind of sad anyway. 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: If you're looking back throughout US history or wondering why 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: did the GOP the Grand Old Party get associated with 58 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,080 Speaker 1: the elephant and why did the Democrats get associated with 59 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: the donkey, Well, the answer is one guy, Thomas Nast. Well, 60 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: the answer is sort of one guy. 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 4: Anyway. 62 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: It's ridiculous history. We owe a lot of today's story 63 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: to the Massachusetts Historical Society. You know, if you are 64 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: an animator, a visual artist, a cartoonist, you probably already 65 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: know what we're gonna say about Thomas Nast. He is 66 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: considered the father of the American cartoon. 67 00:03:59,200 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 4: Oh, yeah. 68 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: I mean if you look at his work, you can 69 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: see his style in so much other stuff, especially satire. 70 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: Like if anyone's ever seen the Pink Floyd film The Wall, 71 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 3: there are a lot of animated bits in it by 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 3: Gerald Scarf, and it really captures this sort of grotesque 73 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 3: kind of fat cat character quality, you know, of like 74 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: the wealthy and like politicians and people in power and 75 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 3: judges and stuff that Nast really kind of created. 76 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 4: Like a very you know, famous image of his is like. 77 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: A very portly dude in a suit with a bag 78 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: of money for a head, and he's called the Brains. 79 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 3: You know. It's like that stuff really bled into a 80 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 3: lot of like sixties kind of like counterculture, you know, 81 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 3: like our crumb even and things like that. 82 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: And we can see the descendants of that kind of 83 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: satirical visual art in things like the infamous Saturday Night 84 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: Live Who Can Trolls the Media sketch? Do you guys 85 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: remember that car. 86 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 4: I don't remember that one, but I mean I don't 87 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 4: doubt it was. 88 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: Just like it's the one they got like basically polled too. 89 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 4: Right. 90 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll tell you it did not get banned, but 91 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: it was only aired one time. You can still find 92 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: it on YouTube and it's got you know, it's like 93 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: a schoolhouse rock kind of thing. That's exactly right, and 94 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: that's the style. It's an explanation of how few companies 95 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: actually own the media. Uh and it gets conspiratorial, I 96 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: dare say very quickly. 97 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 5: I mean, was that ge who owned NBC at the time, 98 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 5: because they obviously go after the owner of NBC as well. 99 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 5: But it's like in the same vein, like you know, 100 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,960 Speaker 5: Samuel L. Jackson is definitely not banned from SNL. He's 101 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 5: not banned from dropping an f wort on SNL. 102 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: Rach against the Machine is still going to play again. 103 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 4: Right, Well, yeah, what do they do? Like they burned 104 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 4: a flag or something like that. 105 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 3: But we're talking about all of this like kind of 106 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 3: counterculture sort of protesting, you know, anti establishment stuf, because 107 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,119 Speaker 3: that's what Nas kind of put forth, Like he used 108 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 3: hit the medium of cartooning to really stick it to 109 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: the man, like in a very very fundamental way that 110 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 3: could be understood by everybody, because a really stark black 111 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 3: and white cartoon one or two panels that kind of 112 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: lampoons a politician or somebody in a humorous way, but 113 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: also communicates a message. 114 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 4: This is a bad dude that resonates. 115 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 3: Sometimes more than like the really hard to sift through 116 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: rhetoric of politics. 117 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: You know, sure, yeah, yeah, and we'll see shadows of 118 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: doctor Seuss or soyce he pronounced it. Let's see, let's 119 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: get into it all right. Cast your memory back, folks. 120 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: It's late September eighteen forty. There's a baby born in Germany. 121 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: His name Thomas Nast. He could have been no offense, noal, 122 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: a young German boy. 123 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: See, I would say, you qual a fight as a 124 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 4: young German boy. 125 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,119 Speaker 1: Okay, so I guess you're right. He was a young 126 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: German boy until about the age of six, at which 127 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: point his parents immigrated. 128 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 4: To New York. 129 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 3: Honestly, this is very much my same story. I was 130 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 3: born in Wurtzburg, Germany, as a young German boy, lived 131 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: there till the age of six, and then immigrated. I 132 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: didn't actually immigrate. He had an American Oh, I had American 133 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: parents that you know. I was born like associated with 134 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: American citizens abroad or whatever. But still me and Thomas 135 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: are we that different here? I moved to Georgia, by 136 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 3: the way, so maybe a little different. But he arrived 137 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: in New York at the age of six, where he 138 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: had access to all of this cool culture he wouldn't 139 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 3: have had in his little German village. He studied art 140 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 3: at the National Academy of Design, and then when he 141 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: turned fifteen, he got a kind of apprentice type job 142 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 3: as a draftsman for Frank Leslie's Illustrated newspaper. 143 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 4: I guess if he's an actual draftsman. 144 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: He's not an apprentice, but this feels sort of like 145 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 3: an entry level position, that is the Frank Leslie's Illustrated newspaper. 146 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: And then eighteen he moved on to Harper's Weekly, which 147 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 3: is a you know, obviously continues to loom large in 148 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 3: the world of like literary kind of periodicals. 149 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: I have a subscription and I make sure to tell 150 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: everybody about it the minute we meet. 151 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: Well, this is the first I've heard of it, So 152 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: glad to be included. So isn't Harper's another one of it? 153 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: It's like a very kind of you know, smarty pants, 154 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: kind of mad. 155 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: It's like Harper's Vanity Fair, the New Yorker, et cetera, 156 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: et cetera sort. 157 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 3: Of high minded, academic, sort of New Yorky sort of ideals, right, 158 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 3: it's it's for the Americans. 159 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: It's very uh, we have Paris Review at home, got 160 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: it kind of kind of vibes, But no, it is 161 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: a great it is a great literary resource. And to 162 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: get a job at eighteen work for Harper's, that's nothing 163 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: to sneeze at. 164 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 4: You know. He also he would have been doing layouts 165 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 4: at this point. 166 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 3: I imagine, right, if he's a draftsman and then he 167 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 3: gets a job and he's initially kind of probably helping 168 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: lay out the publication and doing art direction kind of stuff. 169 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, unclear exactly what the nature of his job was 170 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: at that point. He may have you know, he obviously 171 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: wasn't the editor of the of the outfit. I almost 172 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: called it a rag. But you know, he also probably 173 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: by eighteen, he didn't have his iconic facial hair quite imposition. 174 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: It's sort of like, you know, when you see a 175 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: picture a Lincoln without his beard, or when you see 176 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: a picture of Salvador Dali without his weird mustache. He's 177 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: he's not quite evolved into the vital form of. 178 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 3: Nast which which will resemble pretty closely sort of a 179 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: Russian dignitary, you know, very clean cut hair on top, 180 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: but then like a crazy mustache and pointy beard. 181 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:16,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, he eventually evolves into like a brunette Colonel Sanders. 182 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: So to do that, to reach that final form, he 183 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: has to cross the pond again. The New York Illustrated 184 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: News sends him to England when he is twenty years old. 185 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: It's eighteen sixty, and that same year he goes to 186 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: Italy to cover It's kind of like he's a freelancer. 187 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: There's this revolt led by a guy named Giuseppe Garibaldi, 188 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: and he covers this for the London News, the Illustrated 189 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: London News, but he also goes and sells the same 190 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: reporting to American publications. He's still working for Harper's the 191 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: entire time. He's kind of like, picture him like a 192 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: a hired hitman of the pen, you know what I mean. 193 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: So he's drawing pictures left and right. 194 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's I guess that's what I was trying 195 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 4: to wrap my head around. 196 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: And maybe it sounded like a dum dumb when I 197 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: was asking about whether he was, you know, sort of 198 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: an art director or whatever, like the job would be, 199 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: you know, an or for an early stage in one's 200 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 3: career as an artist, like out of publication like this, 201 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: but he was illustrating news. It wasn't exactly cartoons yet, 202 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: but it was sort of these pieces that would go 203 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: along with you know, coverage of like sporting events and 204 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 3: even you know, like big political moments mm hmm. 205 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, big political moments indeed. And just to draw this 206 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: out a little bit more, when he went to England, 207 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: originally he was drawing pictures of one of the big 208 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: prize fights of the time, an American named John c. 209 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: Heenan and an Englishman named Thomas Sayers. So it's kind 210 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: of like they hired him to travel on site and 211 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: draw a boxing match, which is kind of a cool gig, 212 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, what do you do? 213 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 4: Oh? 214 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: I draw cartoons of boxers. That's that's an interesting thing 215 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: to say on a first date. But as we know, 216 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 1: the Harper's Weekly this is the employer that gives him 217 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: his early fame. And if you look back at books 218 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: like The Lifetimes and Legacy of Thomas Nast by John Adler, 219 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: you'll see you'll see that people consider him not just 220 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: a cartoonist, but a journalist in his own right. 221 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it's sort of an editorial journalist because 222 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 3: he is imparting so much of his own viewpoint, you know, 223 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: like politically into his work, which does kind of start 224 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 3: to evolve into these very pointed political cartoons. 225 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 226 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Atler says on his website. For the book, he says, 227 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: quote Nast was the first journalist who didn't own his 228 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: paper to play a major role in shaping public opinion. However, 229 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: he could not have done so without the quality, consistency, 230 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: financial strength, and resultant reach and dominance of Harper's Weekly, 231 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: the country's leading illustrated newspaper. To unpack that, what it 232 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: means is that he was shaping public opinion in the 233 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: way that a publisher would at this time. 234 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 4: But he was just a guy that they had hired. 235 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: And when he comes back from the prize fight and 236 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: from his partnerships in Italy, he starts to cover the 237 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: American Civil War for New York Illustrated News. 238 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, and some of these pieces really are just kind 239 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: of these tableaus of things that he likely witnessed, you know. 240 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 3: I mean, this is a stand in for let's call 241 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 3: it like embedded war photographers. I don't know if you've 242 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: seen it yet, but I watched Civil War the other day, 243 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 3: and I thought it was great and really really well 244 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: sound designed, like one of the loudest, most kind of 245 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 3: arresting war moves I've ever seen. But you know, the 246 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 3: idea of capturing what you see kind of unapologetically, you know, 247 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 3: being there in the moment to show what war is 248 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 3: actually like. 249 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 4: He was doing that, you know, with pen and ink. 250 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is kind of a precedent for gonzo journalism. 251 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: I would argue in that there is not a He's 252 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: not making claims of objectivity. 253 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 4: That's exactly what I was trying to say. 254 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: And let's go to our friends at the Britannica who 255 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: say the following. They say that his cartoons after the 256 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: Battle eighteen sixty two attacking Northerners opposed to energetic prosecution 257 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: of the war, and his other cartoon Emancipation for Mateen 258 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: sixty three, showed the evils of slavery and the benefits 259 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: of abolishing slavery. These two cartoons, in particular, the ones 260 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: that are telling the Northerners to get into the war 261 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: and the ones that are saying, hey, by the way, 262 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: enslaving people is evil. Apparently these two cartoons were so 263 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: effective that President Abraham Lincoln called Thomas Nest our best 264 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: recruiting sergeant. 265 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, after the battle almost looks like a kind of 266 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: Goya painting or something, you know, depicting the evils of 267 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 3: war or like just a classic these you know, tons 268 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: of action going on in the foreground in the background, 269 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: and less a political cartoon more than sort of an 270 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 3: amalgamation of like various aspects that he likely witnessed, all 271 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: kind of squished into this one insane scene where people 272 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: are being thrown, bodies are being thrown into pits, and 273 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: you know, you've got workers with shovels like covering the 274 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: body he's in the background. There's things on fire, and 275 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: you've got you know, soldiers on horseback, and it's just 276 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: absolute chaos and. 277 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 4: Hell on earth. 278 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's what the American public needed at that point. 279 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 4: You know. 280 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: He does a lot of other stuff too. Spoiler Thomas 281 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Nast survives the Civil War, which is something not everyone 282 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: at that time could say. Sure, And on January third, 283 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three, in his old standby now Harper's Weekly. 284 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: Still he's a very young dude. He's like, what twenty 285 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: three at this point, so twenty two, he hasn't yet 286 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: seen his twenty third birthday, but he shows America his 287 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: interpretation of Santa Claus. 288 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, Madison Avenue would have loved to 289 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 3: have him. Yeah, isn't that funny the way like he 290 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 3: basically accidentally invented one of the most ubiquitous brands in 291 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 3: the universe, like out of spite, kind of like as 292 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 3: a part of a really you know, clever joke. 293 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a civil it's civil war propaganda. And look 294 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: again we've said it on stuff that'll want you to know, 295 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: just to say it here. Clearly, not all propaganda is bad, 296 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: you know, like anti smoking campaigns are propaganda, but they're 297 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: also right. So he he is not trying to he's 298 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: not trying to cement the image of Santa Claus and 299 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: pop culture. He is attempting to, as you said, Noel, 300 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: he's attempting to make a clever repost, a bit of 301 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: satirical commentary about the Civil War. 302 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 6: But it could also be used by the powers that 303 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 6: be as a look, everyone's really stoked and happy and 304 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 6: hanging out with Fanta Claus on the front lines, like 305 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 6: this is the beauty of art. 306 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 3: Kind of in these times where someone needed a benefactor 307 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 3: where you almost had to like hide your little barb 308 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 3: kind of buried somewhere deep within the piece that was 309 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 3: being paid for and funded by, you know, some sort 310 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 3: of powerful person. And I know he was working for 311 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: an independent magazine, but there, you know, there had to 312 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: have been some pressures. 313 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 4: We even know, like Walt Disney. 314 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 3: Company made like war propaganda at the best of Uncle Sam. 315 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 3: I imagine there was, you know, this was perhaps requested 316 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: or something. 317 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 4: I don't know. It's very interesting. 318 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:30,239 Speaker 1: Well, also this leads to the common misconception that he 319 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: is the creator of the image of Uncle Sam. 320 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 4: You know what I mean that that. 321 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: You know, the stars and stripes dude, who also kind 322 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: of looks like Thomas Nast pointye and say, you know, 323 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: I want you for the US Army. If you look 324 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 1: at these early drawings, this eighteen sixty three drawing of Santa, 325 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: you'll see that it is clearly propaganda. 326 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 4: To your point. 327 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 1: Santa here is wearing a jacket with stars and pants 328 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: colored in stripes, very Uncle Sam like, right, and in 329 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: his hands he has a puppet toy with a rope 330 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: around its neck. He's hanging a little effigy of Confederate 331 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 1: President Jefferson Davis not too subtle. 332 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, but am I am I completely overreading into it 333 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: that maybe in his mind there was also a little 334 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,359 Speaker 3: bit of sarcasm in there where it's like a Santa 335 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 3: Claus on the front lines. 336 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 4: It's almost like too rich to be, you know what 337 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 4: I mean. I don't know. I mean because because. 338 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: He's like giving a gift to the Union, you know, 339 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: and here's the gift I give you. It is the 340 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: president of the Confederacy dying by hanging. 341 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 3: So then there's a second illustration that we found that 342 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: shows kind of like a sad Union soldier sort of 343 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 3: like missing his uh I guess, missing his wife sort 344 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 3: of These two circular frames in this other circle to 345 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: the left, which I guess you could consider a panel, 346 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 3: is his wife praying for his safe return, and there's 347 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: a big block of text at the top saying Christmas Eve, 348 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 3: and the upper left you can kind of see Santa 349 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 3: Claus about to come down the chimney to presumably bring 350 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 3: presents to the two sleeping children behind the wife of 351 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: the soldier who was far far away and missing his family. 352 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 3: So man almost a little bit overly sentimental, But I 353 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: guess that was the idea that was what was needed 354 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: to kind of get people's emotions stirred up. 355 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it is about stirring up emotions 356 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: at this point. 357 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: Oh and see, there's so much stuff going on in these, 358 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 3: like we were mentioning, there really is almost this gooya 359 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: ass quality in another panel at the bottom, and these 360 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 3: are all kind of rained with sort of Christmas wreaths 361 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 3: and then their American flag sort of buried in the ground. 362 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 3: There's a very subtle small image of tombstones and like kind. 363 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 4: Of grave plots. The freshly dug graves looks like so. 364 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 5: If you go up to the top of it, there 365 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 5: is a cemetery gate right upove a red below Christmas 366 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 5: Eve the upper right. 367 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: It's just like in the upper left you have like 368 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: kind of like the very. 369 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 5: Santa Christmas quintessential stand out on the rooftop on the 370 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 5: right side. Flip across the other side of you have 371 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 5: like this pretty much destroyed looking battlefield. 372 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: And this is this is all to weaponize the concept 373 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: of Christmas, in that it is meant to give the 374 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: North the moral high ground. So Adam Gopnik writes the 375 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: following in a nineteen ninety seven issue of The New Yorker. 376 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: He says, in these two drawings that we're talking about now, 377 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 1: Christmas became a Union holiday and Santa a Union local deity. 378 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: It gave Christmas to the North, gave to the Union 379 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: cause an aura of domestic sentiment and even sentimentality. 380 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 4: Right. 381 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: So here we are in the North, we're the good guys. 382 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: We celebrate Christmas. You folks like Christmas? Right, you aren't 383 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: you kind of all on board with the Union exactly? 384 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, as I said, Madison, Avenue would have been happy 385 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: to have him. It's interesting, right, because I'm sort of 386 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 3: struggling with this idea of him being sort of a propagandist. 387 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 3: And again, these are like positive propaganda campaigns. The Union 388 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: obviously was on the right side of history, and this 389 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: stuff is sort of weaponizing his wit and his ability 390 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: to like stir up people's emotions. But there is part 391 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 3: of me that's like, oh, but he's doing it for 392 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 3: the government, you know. 393 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 4: But again, this is a time where he was really 394 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 4: needed for that. 395 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: He moved on towards being much more of a sort 396 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: of self directed, it seems, kind of political activist where 397 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: he could actually create whole movements single handed. You know, 398 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: with his pen that could topple massive organizations. 399 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: And his timing is amazing because at this point Christmas 400 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: is starting to evolve in the United States into the 401 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: established traditions we have today, but it wasn't quite at 402 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: that level yet. You can look at things like the 403 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: eighteen twenty three poem A Visit from Saint Nicholas by 404 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: Clement Clark Moore, you know, plus the Night before. 405 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 4: Christmas, of course, and all through the house. 406 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly apparently then I have a lot of 407 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: questions about that poem. Anyway, then of course we know 408 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 1: Charles Dickens Christmas Carol eighteen forty three, you know what 409 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: I mean, buy me the Finest Goose in all of London, right, And. 410 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 3: In that poem and in those stories and all of 411 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: the kind of Santa lore that had started to really 412 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: you know, take hold at this point were descriptions of 413 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 3: old Saint Nick and that's what he was working from. 414 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 3: And this is a big deal because it kind of gave, 415 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 3: you know, a physical visual representation to something that people 416 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 3: had only kind of imagined thus far, and that ended 417 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 3: up becoming, like I was saying, like the thing that 418 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 3: sort of served as the template for like all kind 419 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 3: of future Santa imagery from that point on, at least in. 420 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 4: Like popular culture in America. 421 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And this reminds me of conversations we've 422 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: had with our pal, Nick Benson. You can check out 423 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: Nick Turbo Benson's art on Instagram. He illustrated our book 424 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: for us. He is, He's a fantastic guy, and I 425 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: love I love talking with him about just the process 426 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: that he uses when he is creating art. Nick is 427 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: like Thomas Nast in that he loves a reference image. 428 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: And one time he broke down for me how reference 429 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: images work. And you remember, we went and we went 430 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: to a photo shoot where he took pictures of us 431 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 1: so we could have visual references. Apparently Nast did the 432 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: same thing. He based his vision of Santa kind of 433 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 1: on himself, and then he used his wife and his 434 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: kids as references for other characters. So I suspect that 435 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: any elves he draws are basically his kids, right. 436 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 4: Would I wouldn't doubt it. It's easy to do that. 437 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 4: You don't need any CGI or anything. 438 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 3: You just draw them a bunch of times, and you know, 439 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 3: put them in different clothes and with different expressions. 440 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 4: No one would be the wiser. 441 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really neat the way Nick does use you know, 442 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: tons of different references and sometimes he'll combine like the 443 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 3: features of a couple of different characters into one by 444 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: like sort of using parts from different source images and. 445 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 4: Correct me if I'm wrong. 446 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 3: I mean, there was there was no kind of ability 447 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 3: to capture photographic images of like moving subjects or of 448 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 3: you know, fast paced action. So that's why they needed 449 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: an illustrator because I believe at this point you still 450 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 3: had to kind of sit for portraits and you know, 451 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 3: exposures would take a long time and you couldn't move 452 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 3: and things like that. So this ability to kind of 453 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 3: give shape to so many of these events and even 454 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: kind of imaginary concepts well sorry sorry kids, Santa's imaginary, 455 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 3: but was a huge deal and it really kind of 456 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: caught the imagination of the country. 457 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and at this point, as you said, Noel, there 458 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: are things like modern photographs, but they're very they're still 459 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: very ted talking, you know what I mean, Like the 460 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: Dea Gera type comes around in the eighteen thirties, so 461 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: this is it is much more common to have a 462 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: good illustrator just drawing week to week for a publication. 463 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: Nast would go on to create thirty three different depictions 464 00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: of Santa Claus, and often these were, as we said, weaponized. 465 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: These were political pieces, right, these were propaganda. One that 466 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: I think drew the attention of our research associate, Max 467 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: Williams is this one from eighteen eighty one, which does 468 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: look very much like a modern Santa Claus and is 469 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: a political cartoon that is entirely aimed at getting better 470 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: paid for soldiers. 471 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 4: And if you look at. 472 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: Him, you know, he's a he's a fun guy, right, 473 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: he's got toys, he's got a weird pipe. I think 474 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: they did nix the pipe later, right. 475 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, honestly, it kind of looks like 476 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 3: the type of pipe that Gandalf smokes that halfling weed in, 477 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 3: you know that he's always going on about. Sin's a 478 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 3: very long, narrow or stem kind of in a little bowl. 479 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 3: Like it looks much more like something you can smoke 480 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: drug out of then you know, a jolly you know, 481 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 3: bit of cherry tobacco or something. And he looks like 482 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: totally stone, not gonna lie. Yeah, they face that part out. Yeah, 483 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 3: modern modern Santa vapes. Can you imagine there's this amazing 484 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: YouTube clip or I guess it's like a gift for 485 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: like a like a whatever where it's a scene from 486 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,520 Speaker 3: the Lord of the Rings the Hobbit actually where basically 487 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 3: Bilbo lights up his pipe and the smoke kind of 488 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 3: bilows off and then all of a sudden, you see. 489 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 4: Gandalf just pop out from behind the tree. 490 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 3: And the heading is like the moment you light up 491 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 3: your boy, the moment you light up. 492 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: That bowl or like Snoop Dogg and half Bait. 493 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: It's like it's like the dude coming around from behind 494 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 3: the tree kind of rubbing his hands together, like let 495 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: me hit that. 496 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: I haven't even hit it yet. 497 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 498 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: So uh so this continues, right, Coca Cola will take 499 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: nasty ideas later and they will they will pop further 500 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: popular this image. Uh but Nas doesn't know this at 501 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: the time. 502 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 4: He's not going to get paid for that either. 503 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: He's just making his cartoons. 504 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 3: You know. 505 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: It's it's tough to work in creative field. And so 506 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: he uh he again survives the Civil War. He keeps 507 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: pursuing this career, and now he's got a new favorite 508 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: guy to hate. Uh, give me some booze here, Max 509 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: Andrew Johnson boo so, uh yeah, double booze uh So, Noel, 510 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: how did uh how did Nast portray our buddy Andrew Johnson? 511 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 4: Boo yeah. 512 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: And this is when he really starts to kind of 513 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: come into that sort of fat cat, grotesque politician caricature 514 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 3: that became such a staple of Nast style in the 515 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 3: way he portrays Andrew Johnson as this kind of iron fisted, 516 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,719 Speaker 3: repressive dictator type figure, as well as Southerners, you know, 517 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 3: not really being able to kind of give up entirely 518 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 3: on their racist attitudes despite slavery, you know, being illegal. 519 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 4: M hmm. Yeah. 520 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: And this is also where he becomes even more weaponized. 521 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 4: We could say. 522 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: He starts targeting corrupt political reprobates. He swings for the King, 523 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: he goes for Tammany ring Hold the phote everyone. It 524 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: turns out this is a two parter. This is going 525 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: to be the first half of our series on Thomas 526 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: Nest And when you tune in two Part two, you'll 527 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: learn about adventures in Ecuador, You'll learn about the nature 528 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: of elephants and donkeys, and spoiler no, folks will also 529 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: hear us be surprised that this. 530 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 3: Was a two parter Oh yeah, yeah, spoiler for that 531 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 3: moment of realization. 532 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 5: It's either a two part or probably the longest Ridiculous 533 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 5: History episode in the history of ridiculous hit. 534 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: Oh so far, big big thanks to our super producer, 535 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: the Man, myth, the Legend, mister Max Williams, Big big 536 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: thanks to aj Bahamas Jacobs. I used my earlier reference 537 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: for Jonathan Strickland already but strict if you're listening, Thanks 538 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: man of course. 539 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 3: Alex Williams who composed our theme, Chris Fhrascios, and Eves 540 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 3: Chef Coates here in spirit, Max U with the facts 541 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: Williams research associated shordinaire and super producer on both the 542 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 3: Ones and the twos. 543 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 4: And Ben thank you for you know, being your own. 544 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: Kind of version of Thomas Nast carrying that stick it 545 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 3: to the man ness, uh you know, with you throughout 546 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: throughout thisiness life. 547 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 4: I'm kidab a pill, yeah pill, a weaponized pill. We'll 548 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 4: see you next time, folks. 549 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 550 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.