WEBVTT - Domenica Guillaume Walter and l'Affaire Lacaze

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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<v Speaker 1>of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Tracy

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<v Speaker 1>Biegelson and I'm Holly Frye. We have come around to

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<v Speaker 1>yet another episode. Inspired by that trip I took to

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<v Speaker 1>Philadelphia to see the Marie Lawrence Sont exhibit at the

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<v Speaker 1>Barnes Foundation. One part of that exhibition focused on Marie

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<v Speaker 1>Lawrence Son's portraits, and there were these brief biographical sketches

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<v Speaker 1>of the people shown in those portraits, and one that

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<v Speaker 1>caught my eye was of Dominica Guilme. She was married

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<v Speaker 1>to Paul Guielme, who was a writer and an art

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<v Speaker 1>dealer who developed a substantial collection of artwork, and, in

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<v Speaker 1>the words of this brief biography quote, to ensure the

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<v Speaker 1>collection remained in her possession in the event of Paul's death.

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<v Speaker 1>Dominica needed an air after an unsuccessful feigned pregnancy. She

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<v Speaker 1>adopted a child, also named Paul, who she abused and

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<v Speaker 1>whose murder she plotted twice after her husband died in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty four, which caused me to go, I'm sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>what like, there's a lot to unpack there. There's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot to unpack there and it's just, you know, two

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<v Speaker 1>entire sentences mentioned in this brief biography. So that's been

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<v Speaker 1>hanging out on my to do list since then, and

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<v Speaker 1>here we are today. So Dominica Guillome was born Juliette

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<v Speaker 1>Marie Leoni Lacaz on May nineteenth, eighteen ninety eight, in Avon,

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<v Speaker 1>in southern France. There's really very little documentation about her

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<v Speaker 1>early life, reportedly because she destroyed as much of it

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<v Speaker 1>as possible. There is some suggestion that the family was

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<v Speaker 1>financially comfortable but perhaps wound up losing their money. In

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<v Speaker 1>other accounts, her father was a notary. She had a brother, Jean,

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<v Speaker 1>who got a job working for Shell Oil, and she

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<v Speaker 1>eventually went to Paris where she was an art model,

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<v Speaker 1>and she also got a job working in the cloakroom

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<v Speaker 1>at a nightclub. We know a little bit more about

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<v Speaker 1>her first husband, Paul Guillome, who was born at November

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eighth, eighteen ninety one. His father was a tax collector,

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<v Speaker 1>and Paul seems to have wanted a more exciting life

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<v Speaker 1>for himself than that from a very early age. He

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<v Speaker 1>wound up getting a job at a garage, which does

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<v Speaker 1>not sound all that flashy, but this was a garage

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<v Speaker 1>that catered to wealthy clients and they imported their own

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<v Speaker 1>rubber for making tires. These rubber shipments sometimes included some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of African artwork or cultural object. One of them

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<v Speaker 1>was a mask from Gabon that sparked Guillaume's interest in

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<v Speaker 1>African art. So this isn't really what today's episode is about,

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<v Speaker 1>so we're not going to go into a ton of detail.

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<v Speaker 1>But people in Equatorial Africa were tapping rubber trees for

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<v Speaker 1>their sap and refining it into a usable material long

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<v Speaker 1>before European colonization. But in the nineteenth century, European efforts

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<v Speaker 1>to extract increasing amounts of rubber from parts of Africa

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<v Speaker 1>were both environmentally destructive and devastating from a human rights perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>This connects to King Leopold of Belgium's personal rule of

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<v Speaker 1>the Congo, which we talked about in our episode on

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<v Speaker 1>George Washington Williams that came out on February nineteenth of

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<v Speaker 1>this year. Europeans were also extracting artwork from Africa. These

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<v Speaker 1>objects that Paul Gielm was seeing in rubber shipments were

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<v Speaker 1>just a very few of the thousands of pieces that

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<v Speaker 1>Europeans took from Africa, mainly starting in about the eighteen seventies.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time time, though a lot of Europeans

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<v Speaker 1>did not really see these works as having much artistic

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<v Speaker 1>worth or value. To a lot of people, they were

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<v Speaker 1>more like trinkets or curiosities. Museums that held African works

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<v Speaker 1>in their collections often had them in ethnography, not in

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<v Speaker 1>their art collections. This is something that we also talked

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<v Speaker 1>about in more detail in our episode on the Putative

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<v Speaker 1>Expedition of eighteen ninety seven and the collection of artworks

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<v Speaker 1>known as the Benin Bronzes. That episode came out in

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<v Speaker 1>January of twenty twenty two. The European perception of these

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<v Speaker 1>objects was starting to shift when Guillume was working at

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<v Speaker 1>the garage. Artists like Pablo Picasso and Arima Tise saw

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<v Speaker 1>African sculptures in places like the Trocadero Ethnographic Museum in

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<v Speaker 1>Paris in the mid nineteen hundreds, and these more abstract

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<v Speaker 1>geometric pieces became a huge influence on their work. Cubism, Fauvism, Primitivism,

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<v Speaker 1>and other aesthetic movements were heavily influenced by African art,

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes without the artists really knowing much about the context

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<v Speaker 1>of the traditions that these sculptures had been made in.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, these artistic movements were also controversial.

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<v Speaker 1>While these more avant garde artists saw African works as

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<v Speaker 1>a source of inspiration, the artistic establishment was initially hostile

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<v Speaker 1>to them and their work. Paul Gillo lived in molmart

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<v Speaker 1>and he became connected to a lot of the writers

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<v Speaker 1>and artists who lived there, including Pablo Picasso and poet

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<v Speaker 1>and playwright Guilloma Polonaire. Paulinaire was really influential to Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Gium's understanding of modern art in Europe, introducing him to

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<v Speaker 1>other artists and recommending that he buys specific people's works.

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<v Speaker 1>By February of nineteen fourteen, Paul Gium had developed a

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<v Speaker 1>large enough art collection to open a small gallery, one

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<v Speaker 1>that was focused mainly on the work of living artists.

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<v Speaker 1>He also became one of the first art dealers to

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<v Speaker 1>sell the work of the Cubists. Sometimes on his own

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<v Speaker 1>and sometimes advised by a Pollinaire, Paul Guilloum bought the

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<v Speaker 1>works of then unknown artists, often paying almost nothing for them.

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<v Speaker 1>This included buying paintings by Maurice U Trio from a

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<v Speaker 1>cabaret owner. Eu Trio had given him artwork in exchange

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<v Speaker 1>for meals. As Guillome started to build a reputation for himself,

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<v Speaker 1>Picasso and a pollinaire went to him to try to

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<v Speaker 1>launch the career of Giorgio de Quirico, who had moved

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<v Speaker 1>to Paris from Italy. Guillome bought all of his newly

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<v Speaker 1>created artwork on an ongoing basis for one hundred francs

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<v Speaker 1>a month. This reminds me a lot of what Gertrude

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<v Speaker 1>Stein and her brother were also doing, like buying up

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<v Speaker 1>the works of people who had no, you know, artistic

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<v Speaker 1>reputation yet who later became really famous and influential. In

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen fourteen, Guilloume loaned eighteen African works of art to

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<v Speaker 1>an exhibition that was called Statuary in Wood by African Savages,

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<v Speaker 1>the Root of Modern Art. This kind of language was

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<v Speaker 1>extremely common in descriptions of African art in the early

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<v Speaker 1>twentieth century. This exhibition was arranged by American photographer Alfred

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<v Speaker 1>Stieglitz and held at his gallery, and this was the

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<v Speaker 1>first exhibition in New York to treat African sculpture as

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<v Speaker 1>artwork in its own right. Gilm also started a magazine

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<v Speaker 1>called Lezard da Peri, doing a lot of the writing

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<v Speaker 1>himself under an assortment of different pen names. Gilm was

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<v Speaker 1>in his early twenties at the start of World War One,

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<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't appear that he served in the war.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the sources that Tracy used for this episode

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<v Speaker 1>said that he was exempted for medical reasons. By the

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<v Speaker 1>time the war was over, he had become extremely famous

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<v Speaker 1>and influential in the European art world. He held exhibitions

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<v Speaker 1>of European and African art, including one that included both,

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<v Speaker 1>highlighting the African influence on Cubism. He also became the

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<v Speaker 1>principal dealer of artists like Andrei Duran And In nineteen twenty,

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<v Speaker 1>when he was twenty eight, when she was twenty two,

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<v Speaker 1>Paul Gio married Juliette la Caz. He's the one that

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<v Speaker 1>gave her the nickname Dominica, reportedly because of her domineering personality,

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<v Speaker 1>and while we really don't know much about her life

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<v Speaker 1>before this point, it's clear that they had some things

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<v Speaker 1>in common. They were both from pretty modest backgrounds, and

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<v Speaker 1>they were largely self taught in terms of things like

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<v Speaker 1>art and culture. They both wanted lives that were more

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<v Speaker 1>colorful and exciting and affluent than the way they'd grown up,

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<v Speaker 1>and after they got married they got to work doing that.

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<v Speaker 1>They moved into a bigger, fancy or apartment. They hired

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<v Speaker 1>a staff of chambermaids and a chef and a chauffeur.

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<v Speaker 1>They socialized and through elegant parties and made lots of connections,

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<v Speaker 1>and they both had various affairs for Dominica. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the was with Andrea Durant, who painted a series of

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<v Speaker 1>portraits of her. After they were married and after the

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<v Speaker 1>end of World War One, Giem seems to have focused

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<v Speaker 1>more and more on the practical and commercial aspects of

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<v Speaker 1>being an art dealer, rather than seeking out and acquiring

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<v Speaker 1>the work of undiscovered, groundbreaking artists. He also boosted the

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<v Speaker 1>price by placing modern works of art in ornate seventeenth

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<v Speaker 1>and eighteenth century frames. This drew some criticism from other

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<v Speaker 1>art dealers, who saw it as artificially inflating the value

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<v Speaker 1>of works that were not as artistically notable. That he

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<v Speaker 1>was still building a collection and selling a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>works that were really influential, but there were people that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of thought he sold out. At this point. Paul

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<v Speaker 1>Gilm's relationship with one of his most important clients also

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<v Speaker 1>started around this same time. That was doctor Albert Barnes,

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<v Speaker 1>founder of the Barnes Foundation. To bring this back full circle,

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<v Speaker 1>Barnes was a chemist who made a fortune in pharmaceutical

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<v Speaker 1>and developed an enormous art collection. Works that Barnes acquired

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<v Speaker 1>through Guielm included more than one hundred African sculptures as

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<v Speaker 1>well as Impressionist paintings. Barnes really became Guilm's most important client.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen thirty, Paul was awarded the French Legion of

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<v Speaker 1>Honor Order of Merit, and he tried to open a

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<v Speaker 1>London office, but that did not do well in the

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<v Speaker 1>wake of the Great Depression. Dominica and Paul also struggled

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<v Speaker 1>financially during these years, and they faced some struggles in

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<v Speaker 1>their relationship as well. And we're going to get to

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<v Speaker 1>all of that after a sponsor break. We said earlier

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<v Speaker 1>that Dominica and Paul Guilllme both had various relationships outside

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<v Speaker 1>their marriage. In nineteen thirty, Guillelm was reportedly seeing a

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<v Speaker 1>fellow art dealer her name was Jeanne Castel. Dominica was

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<v Speaker 1>involved with architect Jean Walterire, who designed hospitals, public housing,

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<v Speaker 1>and luxury homes and apartments. These luxury apartments included the

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<v Speaker 1>building where Dominica and Paul lived, which is also where

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<v Speaker 1>Jean lived with his wife and three children. Living in

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<v Speaker 1>the same building with his wife's lover seems to have

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<v Speaker 1>been a little too much for Paul, and he started

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<v Speaker 1>trying to discourage that relationship, including dropping hints that Dominica

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<v Speaker 1>might face some kind of retribution if she didn't put

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<v Speaker 1>an end to it. After he caught Dominica and Jean

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<v Speaker 1>in a pantry together, Paul gave her an ultimatum. Either

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<v Speaker 1>she would have a child, thus giving him an air,

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<v Speaker 1>or he would write her out of his will and

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<v Speaker 1>instead leave all of his money and his art collection

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<v Speaker 1>to a foundation. According to various sources, Dominica had a

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<v Speaker 1>tuba lagation before they got married, so conceiving a child

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<v Speaker 1>with him was out of the question, but she was

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<v Speaker 1>not willing to lose out on this potential inheritance, so

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<v Speaker 1>she faked a pregnancy by stuffing pillows under her clothes,

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<v Speaker 1>something that was only remotely possible because she and Paul

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<v Speaker 1>were sleeping in separate bedrooms and he was often inebriated.

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<v Speaker 1>Well Jude the obscure moment. Then, in nineteen thirty four,

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<v Speaker 1>Paul became acutely ill and he was admitted to the hospital.

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<v Speaker 1>Various sources say this was because of a burst appendix.

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<v Speaker 1>He died not long after on October first, nineteen thirty four,

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<v Speaker 1>at the age of forty two. During his brief career,

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<v Speaker 1>he had sold and estimated thirteen hundred paintings. This made

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<v Speaker 1>Dominica a widow at the age of thirty six, and

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<v Speaker 1>a will eventually was found that left her Paul's entire

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<v Speaker 1>estate valued at six billion francs, and there were, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>some suspicions about where this discovered will was genuine or not.

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<v Speaker 1>Not long after, though, Dominica became mother to a boy

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<v Speaker 1>named Jean Pierre, who was also known as Paulo. According

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<v Speaker 1>to records. He was born in Paris on November thirtieth,

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen thirty four, and Dominica reportedly bought him for five

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<v Speaker 1>thousand francs, but she told people that he was Paul's child,

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<v Speaker 1>conceived before his death. There are actually some rumors that

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<v Speaker 1>he really was Paul's child, but with another woman that

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<v Speaker 1>he had been having an affair with, and then that

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<v Speaker 1>Dominica had arranged to take custody. Meanwhile, Jean Valtaire's wife

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<v Speaker 1>had learned of his affair with Dominica, but she refused

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<v Speaker 1>to divorce him over it, but then she died in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen forty one, and on September fifth of that year,

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<v Speaker 1>Jean and Dominica got married. It seems like he had

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<v Speaker 1>not tried to interfere with her other relationships while he

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<v Speaker 1>was still married to somebody else, but once he was

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<v Speaker 1>married to Dominica, he wanted her to be faithful to him.

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<v Speaker 1>He also encouraged her to formally adopt Paulo, which she

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<v Speaker 1>did in nineteen forty one. At this point, of course,

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<v Speaker 1>World War II was under way and France was being

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<v Speaker 1>occupied by Germany. In addition to his work as an architect,

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<v Speaker 1>Jean morterire on a lad and zinc mine in Morocco.

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<v Speaker 1>He had gotten the rights to it as part of

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<v Speaker 1>a settlement for bad debt in nineteen twenty five. Initially,

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<v Speaker 1>this mine had not been financially successful and he had

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<v Speaker 1>closed it down, but he reopened it in nineteen thirty six,

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<v Speaker 1>as demand for those medals spiked in response to rising

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<v Speaker 1>international tensions. The mine had in the intervening years become

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<v Speaker 1>extremely lucrative and it was supplying materials needed for the war,

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<v Speaker 1>so Germany tried to force Jean to give up control.

0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 1>He refused and was consequently arrested and imprisoned. He remained

0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:54.160
<v Speaker 1>in prison until the Allies liberated France, and there are

0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:57.360
<v Speaker 1>rumors that Dominica bribed a German official with sex to

0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.960
<v Speaker 1>keep Jean from being executed and to protect him while

0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.560
<v Speaker 1>he was in prison. Young Paulo spent most of World

0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.640
<v Speaker 1>War Two living in ken with a nanny. He returned

0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 1>to Paris once the war was over, but Dominica really

0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.680
<v Speaker 1>seems to have barely tolerated his presence in her apartment.

0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.200
<v Speaker 1>He didn't have a bedroom and instead had to sleep

0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.640
<v Speaker 1>on a mattress under the dining table, and if she

0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.080
<v Speaker 1>was having a party, she made him sleep in the

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 1>bathtub instead. She had plenty of money, but she made

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.960
<v Speaker 1>him wear various hand me downs from mostly Jane's side

0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.760
<v Speaker 1>of the family or old things of hers, and that

0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.960
<v Speaker 1>really embarrassed him because they were obviously women's clothes. She

0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 1>had a reputation for being cruel and inflexible with the

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.960
<v Speaker 1>household staff as well. All of this really raises some

0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:52.920
<v Speaker 1>questions about Waldair's relationship with Gyom. He had done things

0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.120
<v Speaker 1>like establishing a foundation to provide annual grants to disadvantage

0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 1>young men with the most promising of them given life

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.440
<v Speaker 1>larger grants, and eventually a job at the mine. A

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:08.800
<v Speaker 1>lot of sources describe him as practical, philanthropically minded, and principled,

0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:13.480
<v Speaker 1>with the exception of his very public extramarital affair with

0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Dominica Gyllome. Not only did he have a public affair

0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.760
<v Speaker 1>well married to someone else, but it was also with

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 1>someone like Dominica. People did not understand his attraction to

0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 1>her at all. He also stayed with her even as

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.680
<v Speaker 1>her relationship with her adopted son became increasingly volatile. Paulo

0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.080
<v Speaker 1>apparently did not know he had been adopted until he

0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.240
<v Speaker 1>was a teenager and had been expelled from a series

0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:44.560
<v Speaker 1>of boarding schools for various misbehavior. It's been pretty common

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.400
<v Speaker 1>at points in history to not tell people that they

0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.560
<v Speaker 1>were adopted, but during an argument over this, Dominica told

0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.320
<v Speaker 1>him he had been a foundling and that she had

0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 1>no idea who his real parents were. This was clearly

0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.560
<v Speaker 1>something she said to him to hurt him. Although her

0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.680
<v Speaker 1>treatment of Polo wasn't enough for Jean Valterre to end

0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.840
<v Speaker 1>his relationship with her, it does seem like he tried

0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:11.280
<v Speaker 1>to protect and support Paolo where he could. After that argument,

0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.240
<v Speaker 1>Tracy just mentioned, Paolo left home and went to live

0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 1>with Jean Saint Jacques. Paolo worked at a variety of

0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.600
<v Speaker 1>jobs before enlisting in the army in nineteen fifty five

0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 1>at the age of twenty one as a paratrooper. Dominica

0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.960
<v Speaker 1>reportedly knew his commanding officer and told him to make

0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:32.440
<v Speaker 1>sure Paolo was sent into active combat, framing it as

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.160
<v Speaker 1>wanting to make a man out of him, which has

0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 1>its own problems, but based on her later behavior, perhaps

0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 1>she was thinking it would be convenient if he were

0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:46.080
<v Speaker 1>killed in action. Around the same time, Dominica started seeing

0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:51.639
<v Speaker 1>doctor Maurice Laqueur for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis. Various sources

0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:56.240
<v Speaker 1>described Lequeur's practice as questionable. He had a reputation for

0:17:56.400 --> 0:18:00.800
<v Speaker 1>basically being a drug supplier for wealthy women. He claimed

0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:05.520
<v Speaker 1>to practice psychiatry. Home me off at the acupuncture hypnoanalysis

0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:09.359
<v Speaker 1>and a range of other specialties as well. Dominica started

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.919
<v Speaker 1>having an affair with him, going so far as to

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:17.800
<v Speaker 1>move him into the apartment with Jean's reluctant permission. LeCour

0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:23.400
<v Speaker 1>also treated John for some cardiovascular issues. Then came the deaths,

0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:27.720
<v Speaker 1>which started to seem suspicious. Dominica had become friends with

0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.359
<v Speaker 1>American writer and heiress Margaret Thompson Biddle. Margaret had become

0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.359
<v Speaker 1>Jean's business partner after her Neumont Mining Corporation bought forty

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.960
<v Speaker 1>nine percent of Waldare's mines. Dominica and Margaret spent a

0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:45.000
<v Speaker 1>lot of time together and talked about embarking on various projects,

0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:51.320
<v Speaker 1>including starting a newspaper. On June eighth, nineteen fifty six, Dominica, Margaret,

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Maurice Lequeur, and Dominica's brother Jean Lacaz all went to

0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.560
<v Speaker 1>the opera together for a gala performance celebrating the King

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 1>and Queen of Greece. Later that night, while getting ready

0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:07.680
<v Speaker 1>for bed, Margaret died suddenly of what was diagnosed as

0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:11.360
<v Speaker 1>a cerebral hemorrhage. According to one of the sources used

0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.440
<v Speaker 1>in this episode, her office was left in disarray and

0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.440
<v Speaker 1>a dossier had been stolen from it, but no autopsy

0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.560
<v Speaker 1>was conducted, and then she was buried in Fontainebleau A

0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 1>year later. On June eleventh, nineteen fifty seven, Dominica, Jean, Walterer,

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.439
<v Speaker 1>and Laqueur were driving in the countryside and stopped to

0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>eat at a restaurant. Dominica and Lequeur went into the

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.080
<v Speaker 1>restaurant while Jean crossed the street to buy a newspaper.

0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.399
<v Speaker 1>He was hit by a speeding car, and he was

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:45.640
<v Speaker 1>still alive when Dominica and Liqueur got to him. Liqueur

0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.560
<v Speaker 1>treated him as they waited for an ambulance, but Jean

0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Walter was dead by the time the ambulance arrived. Soon

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.880
<v Speaker 1>after Jean's death, Dominica, her brother, and Maurice Lequeur started

0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:02.080
<v Speaker 1>making changes at his businesses. They removed his children from

0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.560
<v Speaker 1>his previous marriage from the board of his foundation, and

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:11.399
<v Speaker 1>they installed LaCour instead. They claimed they had found paperwork

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:16.600
<v Speaker 1>outlining these changes in Jean Walterire's office. Although Jean had

0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:20.640
<v Speaker 1>kind of tolerated LaCour's presence in their lives, he did

0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:23.520
<v Speaker 1>not like that man and family members did not think

0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.760
<v Speaker 1>this paperwork was genuine. Dominica also put her brother in

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.480
<v Speaker 1>charge of the mine in Morocco. Her inheritances from both

0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:37.760
<v Speaker 1>Paul Guillaume and Jean Valtaire made Dominica Guilleumaltaire incredibly wealthy,

0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.879
<v Speaker 1>and under French law, on her death, she would have

0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 1>to leave at least half of her estate to her

0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:49.040
<v Speaker 1>adopted son. Dominica seems to have found this entire idea intolerable,

0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.880
<v Speaker 1>so at least allegedly, she decided to try to do

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 1>something about it, and we will get into that after

0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:08.080
<v Speaker 1>we pause for a sponsor break. I want to put

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.600
<v Speaker 1>a caveat on the rest of this episode. Some of

0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:15.359
<v Speaker 1>the sources that I use make it sound as though

0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Dominica Guiel and members of her circle definitely did everything

0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.800
<v Speaker 1>they were accused of, and then others frame everything more

0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:29.560
<v Speaker 1>as allegations. Some of them make no reference to any

0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.920
<v Speaker 1>of this whatsoever. I only know of a couple of

0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:37.160
<v Speaker 1>books that talk about this in detail. They are both

0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.920
<v Speaker 1>in French, and one of them is also out of print.

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>A lot of the most detailed reporting in English at

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:49.560
<v Speaker 1>the time was in the tabloids, maybe unsurprisingly, there were

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.720
<v Speaker 1>newspapers that were offering shorter coverage that mostly focused on

0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.000
<v Speaker 1>things like the formal court proceedings and charges being filed

0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:02.280
<v Speaker 1>or dropped. But even if all the whole rest of

0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the episode needs the word allegedly in front of it,

0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:09.240
<v Speaker 1>it's still pretty wild. As we said before the break,

0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:13.240
<v Speaker 1>under French law, Dominica guilloum Waldere would have to leave

0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:16.040
<v Speaker 1>at least half of her estate to her adopted son,

0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:20.240
<v Speaker 1>Jean Pierre known as Paolo, upon her death. The only

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:22.800
<v Speaker 1>way she could get out of this is if he died,

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.720
<v Speaker 1>or if she had some legal justification for revoking his adoption,

0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:30.920
<v Speaker 1>like if he committed a serious enough crime. A lot

0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.480
<v Speaker 1>of accounts are not very kind to Paolo, suggesting that

0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:36.879
<v Speaker 1>he got in a lot of trouble and he couldn't

0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:39.320
<v Speaker 1>really stick with anything, and that he ran up debts

0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.159
<v Speaker 1>that had to be settled by Dominica's brother, and that

0:22:42.240 --> 0:22:44.920
<v Speaker 1>he stole from the regimental mess after he was basically

0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:47.720
<v Speaker 1>kicked out of the house and joined the army. But

0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.159
<v Speaker 1>none of those rose to the level of warranting a

0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:57.800
<v Speaker 1>revocation of his adoption, so allegedly Dominica hired a hitman

0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:03.160
<v Speaker 1>to kill him. Maurice Lequeur had previous connections to a

0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.600
<v Speaker 1>far right group known as Lacagour, which was known for

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:10.720
<v Speaker 1>its ties to fascism and terrorism, and these far right

0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:16.600
<v Speaker 1>associates led Laqueur to Commandant Camille Rayon. Rayon did not

0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:18.960
<v Speaker 1>really run in these circles. He had been part of

0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.560
<v Speaker 1>the French resistance during World War II. He had been

0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.760
<v Speaker 1>part of Charles de Gaull's intelligence network. He was seen

0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:30.879
<v Speaker 1>as a war hero, not as right wing terrorists, so

0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.400
<v Speaker 1>it seems kind of weird that he would get caught

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.480
<v Speaker 1>up in this at all. But according to Rayon, when

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.399
<v Speaker 1>Liqueur came to him about this, Laqueur told him that

0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.159
<v Speaker 1>he was being hired to deal with somebody who was

0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:49.000
<v Speaker 1>bringing shame to his family and was a trader. Because

0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:53.720
<v Speaker 1>Liqueur alleged that Paulo was secretly working with the Algerian

0:23:53.800 --> 0:23:58.040
<v Speaker 1>resistance against the French military that he was serving in

0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.479
<v Speaker 1>again into the real account, he quickly realized that Paolo

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:07.200
<v Speaker 1>wasn't some kind of double agent. He'd had various disputes

0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:10.679
<v Speaker 1>with fellow soldiers and local Algerians, but had a reputation

0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:15.840
<v Speaker 1>for bravery and combat. So Rayon decided to string LaCour along.

0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.520
<v Speaker 1>He haggled over the fee, finally settling on thirty million francs.

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:23.359
<v Speaker 1>Then he said it wouldn't be advisable to kill a

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:28.680
<v Speaker 1>French paratrooper on Algerian soil. Paolo's enlistment was ending soon, though,

0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:31.000
<v Speaker 1>and Rayl said it would be better to kill him

0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:35.760
<v Speaker 1>after he returned to France. After leaving the military, Paulo

0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:40.040
<v Speaker 1>started training to be an airline steward. Rayon told the

0:24:40.119 --> 0:24:43.080
<v Speaker 1>cour that he would intercept Paulo on his way to

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:48.560
<v Speaker 1>training and kill him. Rayon did intercept Paalo, but instead

0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:51.200
<v Speaker 1>of killing him, took him to dinner and told him

0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.800
<v Speaker 1>all about the murder plot. At first, Palo didn't really

0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.760
<v Speaker 1>believe him, but eventually Rayon persuaded him that the only

0:24:58.800 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 1>way to get out of danger was to fake his

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:05.560
<v Speaker 1>own death. We said earlier that Jean Walterre had tried

0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:08.639
<v Speaker 1>to protect Paalo where he could, and Palou was still

0:25:08.680 --> 0:25:12.240
<v Speaker 1>close to various members of the Waltaire family, so he

0:25:12.520 --> 0:25:16.359
<v Speaker 1>agreed to participate in this plan only if Jacques Walter

0:25:16.760 --> 0:25:20.200
<v Speaker 1>and Jacques's brother in law Philippe Lamour agreed to it,

0:25:20.840 --> 0:25:23.720
<v Speaker 1>which they did. They also all got some advice from

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:28.600
<v Speaker 1>a lawyer named Reneme Wati. Paolou checked into a hotel

0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:32.600
<v Speaker 1>under an assumed name, and Rayon took his identification papers

0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:37.440
<v Speaker 1>and revolver to Laqueur as proof that the job was done.

0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:40.959
<v Speaker 1>He said that he had strangled Paolou, weighed his body

0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:44.560
<v Speaker 1>down with rocks and thrown it into the sin. LaCour

0:25:44.640 --> 0:25:47.520
<v Speaker 1>gave reON part of his fee of thirty million francs

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:52.600
<v Speaker 1>and promised the rest in ten million franc installments. Although

0:25:52.680 --> 0:25:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Palou had ultimately agreed with this plan, he still had

0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:01.000
<v Speaker 1>not been entirely convinced by Rayon's whole story. But once

0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:05.199
<v Speaker 1>reON came back with this payment, Paolo believed him. They

0:26:05.280 --> 0:26:08.679
<v Speaker 1>left Frontine on the coast northeast of Camp, where Reyon

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:12.240
<v Speaker 1>had a home. Rayon wrote out a full account of

0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:15.199
<v Speaker 1>everything that had happened and titled it quote to be

0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.000
<v Speaker 1>given to the competent authorities in the event of my

0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:22.399
<v Speaker 1>disappearance or death. He then gave this to his lawyer.

0:26:23.600 --> 0:26:26.160
<v Speaker 1>His lawyer read it and just sent it directly to

0:26:26.200 --> 0:26:31.040
<v Speaker 1>a prosecutor, no waiting for his disappearance or death. Meanwhile,

0:26:31.440 --> 0:26:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Jacques Walterire told Dominica that Paulo had disappeared. On February seventh,

0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:42.000
<v Speaker 1>nineteen fifty eight, family members gathered purportedly for Paolo's body

0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.520
<v Speaker 1>to be transported to a cemetery. Most of the people

0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 1>there were related to Jean Valtaire, and Dominica herself did

0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:53.400
<v Speaker 1>not attend. Philippe Lemour filled everyone in about the plot,

0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:56.800
<v Speaker 1>and a few days later Jacques Valtaire told Dominica's brother

0:26:56.880 --> 0:27:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Jean that Paola was really alive. Once police had been

0:27:01.720 --> 0:27:05.800
<v Speaker 1>informed about all of this, they questioned both Dominica and Liqueur.

0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:10.359
<v Speaker 1>Dominica at home, and Liqueur after taking him into custody.

0:27:11.240 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 1>Both of them claimed that Paulo and Raon were conspiring

0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:20.600
<v Speaker 1>to frame them. Lequeur admitted to giving Rayl a sizeable

0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:23.200
<v Speaker 1>cash payment, but he claimed that that was for a

0:27:23.280 --> 0:27:27.800
<v Speaker 1>real estate transaction. This launched an investigation that went on

0:27:27.920 --> 0:27:30.760
<v Speaker 1>for eight months, and it also took a second look

0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:35.320
<v Speaker 1>into those earlier deaths. Rumors surfaced that Margaret Biddle had

0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 1>been planning to sell her shares in the mine because

0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.160
<v Speaker 1>she wasn't satisfied with how it was being run, which

0:27:41.200 --> 0:27:44.520
<v Speaker 1>would have given Dominica a potential motive to have her killed.

0:27:45.440 --> 0:27:48.679
<v Speaker 1>But new investigation into Biddle's death ruled that she had

0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:53.760
<v Speaker 1>died of natural causes. Suspicions lingered around Jean Valtaire's death,

0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:57.760
<v Speaker 1>but no new evidence came to light. Lequeur was indicted

0:27:57.800 --> 0:28:01.200
<v Speaker 1>in connection to the murder plot, and an envelope containing

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:04.159
<v Speaker 1>nine point five million francs that was allegedly part of

0:28:04.200 --> 0:28:08.400
<v Speaker 1>a murder payment was handed over to police, but Judge

0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:13.600
<v Speaker 1>Jacques Battine ultimately dismissed these charges. As all of this

0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:18.520
<v Speaker 1>was happening, Dominica again allegedly took another tack to rid

0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:23.680
<v Speaker 1>herself of Paolo. A sex worker named Marie Terrez Goynek

0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:27.720
<v Speaker 1>known as Mitti, had told both Paolo and the police

0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 1>that Dominica's brother, Jean La Caaz, had offered her a

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:35.920
<v Speaker 1>bribe of twenty thousand dollars to accuse Paolo of living

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:40.160
<v Speaker 1>off of her earnings. So procurement of sex work was

0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.880
<v Speaker 1>one of the crimes that could provide legal grounds for

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:49.280
<v Speaker 1>Dominica to revoke Paolo's adoption. After receiving this tip, police

0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:53.000
<v Speaker 1>tapped Dominica's and La Caza's phones, and that led to

0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:58.320
<v Speaker 1>La Caza's secretary, Irene Ricard, being implicated as well as

0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:01.840
<v Speaker 1>all of them discussed the transfer of a big cash payment.

0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:06.440
<v Speaker 1>Lacas did not deny giving Meti money but he said

0:29:06.560 --> 0:29:10.120
<v Speaker 1>she had approached him saying that Paolo had beaten her,

0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:13.720
<v Speaker 1>and that he owed her six million francs. So, according

0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.960
<v Speaker 1>to La Caaz's version, this payment was hush money. He

0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:20.960
<v Speaker 1>said that he'd been cleaning up after Paolo for years,

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:23.920
<v Speaker 1>paying off various debts and otherwise trying to keep him

0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 1>out of trouble. To make this whole thing more complicated,

0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:30.320
<v Speaker 1>Metis later changed her story, saying that she had gone

0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:33.680
<v Speaker 1>to La Case, not the other way around, but maintaining

0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:35.960
<v Speaker 1>that the money was a bribe for her to bear

0:29:36.000 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 1>false witness against Paolo, and not hush money to keep

0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:43.800
<v Speaker 1>her quiet. In February of nineteen fifty nine, The New

0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:48.480
<v Speaker 1>York Times characterized all of this as involving quote two

0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:54.160
<v Speaker 1>distinct plots and virtually unlimited hypotheses on their origins and development.

0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:58.840
<v Speaker 1>And there were still more twists and turns. Among other things,

0:29:58.840 --> 0:30:02.240
<v Speaker 1>there was a bartender named Francois Ghee who came forward

0:30:02.320 --> 0:30:04.640
<v Speaker 1>and claimed that Laqueur had tried to pay him to

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:08.280
<v Speaker 1>kill Rayel in a car crash. For a time, Dominica

0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:11.520
<v Speaker 1>and Liqueur fled to Morocco, but then they went back

0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:14.280
<v Speaker 1>to Paris, and they had a big public press conference

0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:17.080
<v Speaker 1>at the Ritz Hotel in which they tried to place

0:30:17.160 --> 0:30:22.320
<v Speaker 1>all the blame for everything on to Polo. Eventually, Jean Laquaz,

0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:25.800
<v Speaker 1>his lawyer, and his secretary were all charged with suborning

0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:29.200
<v Speaker 1>a witness, but in June of nineteen sixty all of

0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:33.479
<v Speaker 1>those charges were dropped for lack of evidence. Eventually, Paolo

0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:36.560
<v Speaker 1>became a journalist and a photographer and he moved to

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:41.240
<v Speaker 1>the United States. Yeah after that, he seems to have

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 1>not had any more drama with his family. Fancy that

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:50.560
<v Speaker 1>when you get away from them. Uh Lqueur spent about

0:30:50.560 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 1>six months in prison during all of this, and it

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 1>seems like Dominica ended her involvement with him after he

0:30:56.760 --> 0:31:00.400
<v Speaker 1>was released. She and her brother, Jean la Kaz never

0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:05.840
<v Speaker 1>faced trial, and there is some speculation or according to

0:31:05.880 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 1>some of the sources that I used absolute certainty, that

0:31:09.720 --> 0:31:13.480
<v Speaker 1>this is because she worked out a deal with Andre Mauroux,

0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:17.479
<v Speaker 1>the French Minister of Culture. Under the terms of this

0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:21.760
<v Speaker 1>alleged deal, which was secret if it really happened, she

0:31:21.880 --> 0:31:25.000
<v Speaker 1>would sell one hundred and forty six paintings to the

0:31:25.120 --> 0:31:28.640
<v Speaker 1>Nation of France for a fraction of what they were

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:32.800
<v Speaker 1>actually worth. There was definitely a sale which happened in

0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:37.239
<v Speaker 1>two batches, forty seven paintings in nineteen fifty nine and

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:41.560
<v Speaker 1>ninety nine paintings in nineteen sixty three. They included works

0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:47.600
<v Speaker 1>by Sezen, Renoir, Picasso, Matisse, Moggliani, de Reent, Soutine, Rousseau,

0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Lawrenceint and Utrio, among others. The French government planned to

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:56.120
<v Speaker 1>place these works at the muse de Laurenterie, which at

0:31:56.160 --> 0:32:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the time was overseen by the Louvers publicly. Dominica maintained

0:32:01.600 --> 0:32:05.160
<v Speaker 1>that this was what her late husband, Paul Guilloume, had

0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:09.720
<v Speaker 1>always wanted. He had always wanted to use his collection

0:32:09.840 --> 0:32:13.560
<v Speaker 1>of artwork to create a French museum of modern art

0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:17.240
<v Speaker 1>which would be open to the public. The Musee de

0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:21.160
<v Speaker 1>Laurenerie underwent an extensive renovation to house all of these

0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:25.280
<v Speaker 1>works from nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty five. They basically

0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:28.240
<v Speaker 1>tore out the whole interior and made a two floor

0:32:28.280 --> 0:32:32.560
<v Speaker 1>gallery structure on the inside. A temporary display of this

0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:37.640
<v Speaker 1>collection was inaugurated on January thirty first, nineteen sixty six.

0:32:38.480 --> 0:32:42.200
<v Speaker 1>Dominica Guillome kept possession of most of the paintings until

0:32:42.200 --> 0:32:45.440
<v Speaker 1>her death on June thirtieth nineteen seventy seven, at the

0:32:45.480 --> 0:32:49.720
<v Speaker 1>age of seventy nine. A year later, another extensive renovation

0:32:49.880 --> 0:32:53.720
<v Speaker 1>started at the Muset Delringerie, this time to both create

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a permanent home for this collection, known at Dominica's request

0:32:58.040 --> 0:33:01.680
<v Speaker 1>as the Jean Valtaire and Paul Guilt Collection, and to

0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:06.280
<v Speaker 1>address significant structural issues that have been discovered with the building. Yeah,

0:33:06.320 --> 0:33:09.880
<v Speaker 1>so we know for absolutely sure she sold this work

0:33:09.920 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 1>to the nation of France. What I am less comfortable

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:16.360
<v Speaker 1>saying with absolute certainty is that it was part of

0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:20.640
<v Speaker 1>a deal she worked to stay at a prison. It's

0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:24.880
<v Speaker 1>possible that there is clearer documentation of that in France somewhere,

0:33:25.240 --> 0:33:33.120
<v Speaker 1>but I can't really authoritatively say. Dominica yam Walter framed

0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:36.960
<v Speaker 1>herself as the curator and the protector of Paul Giulm's

0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:41.120
<v Speaker 1>art collection after his death, but in reality she sold

0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:45.560
<v Speaker 1>about two hundred pieces from it after he had died.

0:33:45.600 --> 0:33:49.080
<v Speaker 1>She also added some others. The pieces that she'd sold

0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 1>included his entire collection of African art and the paintings

0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:55.360
<v Speaker 1>by d. Kurico that had been a big part of

0:33:55.400 --> 0:34:00.160
<v Speaker 1>his establishing himself in the art world. So these paintings

0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.120
<v Speaker 1>all exist but they are no longer part of one

0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:07.880
<v Speaker 1>unified collection as they had been when he died. Who

0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:11.759
<v Speaker 1>it's a lot of drama, so much drama. Do you

0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.360
<v Speaker 1>have less dramatic listener mail? I do I have listener

0:34:15.400 --> 0:34:22.680
<v Speaker 1>mail from Rachel. Rachel wrote, Hi, Holly and Tracy, longtime listener,

0:34:22.719 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 1>A third time writer. I was recently in Louisville, Kentucky,

0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:28.759
<v Speaker 1>which had me thinking about you all. On my way

0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:31.560
<v Speaker 1>into town to spend three days doing the Bourbon Trail,

0:34:31.600 --> 0:34:35.320
<v Speaker 1>I passed the Brown Hotel. Plastered on a door facing

0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:37.920
<v Speaker 1>the street was a colorful poster announcing that this was

0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:41.720
<v Speaker 1>where the hot brown sandwich originated. Photo one. I wouldn't

0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:43.600
<v Speaker 1>have known what that was or why it was being

0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:46.000
<v Speaker 1>touted had it not been for the episode on three

0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:51.240
<v Speaker 1>eponymous sandwiches. Went out to dinner one evening while in Louisville,

0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:53.839
<v Speaker 1>at north of Bourbon, I took a photo of the

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 1>different versions of old fashions that can be ordered. I

0:34:57.120 --> 0:34:59.640
<v Speaker 1>sent that to my son, who's always perfecting what he

0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:02.440
<v Speaker 1>makes at home. Then I thought of Holly and how

0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:04.759
<v Speaker 1>she always seems to be working on some drink, and

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:10.480
<v Speaker 1>thought she too would be interested. Finally, after returning home.

0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:13.960
<v Speaker 1>I was listening to the Missouri Leviathan episode and perked

0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:17.320
<v Speaker 1>up at the mention of a working saloon in Albert

0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Cox Museum. While the Fraser Museum in Louisville doesn't have

0:35:21.520 --> 0:35:24.120
<v Speaker 1>a working saloon, just an exhibit of one, it is

0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:26.560
<v Speaker 1>the only museum that I've been to where you can

0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 1>buy either a bourbon tasting class or an old fashioned

0:35:30.680 --> 0:35:34.800
<v Speaker 1>mixing class, and that then includes entry into the museum.

0:35:35.080 --> 0:35:38.960
<v Speaker 1>You can also just buy museum entry without bourbon, should

0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:41.720
<v Speaker 1>you like. That's about as close to a working saloon

0:35:41.719 --> 0:35:44.759
<v Speaker 1>as I've seen in any museum I've been to. While

0:35:44.800 --> 0:35:48.120
<v Speaker 1>the Fraser has other exhibits about Louisville and Kentucky, there

0:35:48.200 --> 0:35:51.120
<v Speaker 1>is a lot of bourbon going on there. It is

0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:53.560
<v Speaker 1>also at the start of the bourbon trail in town.

0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:56.239
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for all you do and keeping me company at

0:35:56.239 --> 0:36:00.000
<v Speaker 1>the gym. And in Atlanta traffic, Rachel Man, Atlanta traffic.

0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:04.840
<v Speaker 1>I was gonna say, Man, I don't miss the Atlanta traffic,

0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 1>but I got caught in some Boston traffic. It's this

0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:14.279
<v Speaker 1>very similar lot of similarities. So yes, there are some

0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:20.480
<v Speaker 1>photos attached to this email that include the entry to

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.040
<v Speaker 1>the hotel that has where the Hot Brown was born

0:36:23.080 --> 0:36:25.600
<v Speaker 1>as a poster, and then the menu of lots of

0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:31.520
<v Speaker 1>different old fashions and getting the last one open. Oh yeah,

0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:34.719
<v Speaker 1>We've got a museum that has like big bourbon barrels

0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:39.200
<v Speaker 1>part on the outside of it. While I have been

0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:42.920
<v Speaker 1>to a number of museums that have like restaurants that

0:36:43.040 --> 0:36:45.640
<v Speaker 1>serve alcohol on the inside, I don't think I would

0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:48.759
<v Speaker 1>say I've been into one that has like a saloon

0:36:49.239 --> 0:36:51.720
<v Speaker 1>or a speakeasy on the inside of it. That sounds

0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:55.080
<v Speaker 1>pretty cool. I feel like there's another museum I've been

0:36:55.120 --> 0:36:57.200
<v Speaker 1>to with a speakeasy and I don't remember which one

0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:00.560
<v Speaker 1>it was, and I feel bad. Yeah, I probably out.

0:37:01.000 --> 0:37:04.600
<v Speaker 1>I have so many questions about the old fashion. Oh yeah,

0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:08.400
<v Speaker 1>there are lots of different ways to make an old fashioned, actually,

0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:14.160
<v Speaker 1>and different people like different versions, and there are depending

0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:17.520
<v Speaker 1>on what I am in the mood for. Sometimes, when

0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:20.719
<v Speaker 1>I'm somewhere that has like a particular, like their particular

0:37:20.840 --> 0:37:23.360
<v Speaker 1>variety of old fashioned on the menu, sometimes that's what

0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.000
<v Speaker 1>I will get. But sometimes I'm not in the mood

0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:29.440
<v Speaker 1>for an old fashion. It depends. Yeah, do you ever

0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:33.880
<v Speaker 1>drink Wisconsin style? Well? What is that? Well, there are

0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:38.720
<v Speaker 1>a few Wisconsin style old fashions are completely different. Don't

0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:41.920
<v Speaker 1>like and it's kind of their unofficial drink, but they're like,

0:37:43.239 --> 0:37:47.840
<v Speaker 1>they involve brandy, they involve big chunks of oranges. They

0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:54.480
<v Speaker 1>have Marisquino cherries usually, or they'll use marishino, which is

0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:59.440
<v Speaker 1>I differentiate Marishino is the bright red, very candied ones Marasquino,

0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:01.799
<v Speaker 1>which is how you would say it in Italy as

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:07.200
<v Speaker 1>the more kind of fancy pants unicorn true cocktail ones

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:10.239
<v Speaker 1>that are usually like a luxardo, like a darker that

0:38:10.360 --> 0:38:14.200
<v Speaker 1>kind of thing. But they and you can top it

0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:18.040
<v Speaker 1>with the soda of your choice. It's a whole different

0:38:18.120 --> 0:38:20.600
<v Speaker 1>bag doing this. This is a very different thing. Yeah,

0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:24.000
<v Speaker 1>I've never experienced this. Now they're pretty fun. I mean, listen,

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.520
<v Speaker 1>Wisconsin does know how to drink. But I'm also just

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:29.040
<v Speaker 1>curious because some people like to use a syrup in

0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.160
<v Speaker 1>their old fashion. Some people prefer the old school sugar

0:38:32.239 --> 0:38:36.800
<v Speaker 1>cube one obviously gives you a more consistent flavor throughout,

0:38:36.920 --> 0:38:39.360
<v Speaker 1>or is the sugar cube version even if it's well muddled,

0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:43.200
<v Speaker 1>you get a sweeter finish. It's all different, So I'm

0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:49.760
<v Speaker 1>curious what they taught at her at her little you know, experience. Holly,

0:38:49.920 --> 0:38:53.440
<v Speaker 1>how do you know so much about cocktails? Ah? Well,

0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:58.200
<v Speaker 1>I did a lot of bartending classes. But I also

0:38:59.320 --> 0:39:04.919
<v Speaker 1>very excited. My other podcast, Criminalia, has our cocktail book

0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:07.640
<v Speaker 1>coming out in just a couple months that's so cool,

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:10.799
<v Speaker 1>which is called Killer Cocktails. So for that show, in

0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:14.040
<v Speaker 1>case anyone doesn't know, it's historical true crime, and every

0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:17.319
<v Speaker 1>episode ends with the cocktail that we've come up with

0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.640
<v Speaker 1>that goes with the theme or some detail about the show,

0:39:21.280 --> 0:39:24.160
<v Speaker 1>about the topic at hand. And so we had been

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:26.160
<v Speaker 1>getting a lot of requests from people who are like,

0:39:26.200 --> 0:39:28.360
<v Speaker 1>where can I get these written down? And so now

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:31.680
<v Speaker 1>you can get many of them written down, not all

0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:34.040
<v Speaker 1>of them. About half of the entries in the book

0:39:34.200 --> 0:39:38.080
<v Speaker 1>are abridged versions of stories we've told on the show

0:39:38.080 --> 0:39:41.920
<v Speaker 1>with their corresponding cocktails and a mocktail for everyone. And

0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:45.280
<v Speaker 1>then the other half is all new content with new

0:39:45.480 --> 0:39:49.840
<v Speaker 1>crime stories and new and new recipe cocktails and mocktails,

0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:52.359
<v Speaker 1>which is so cool, very fun. So that is out

0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:55.719
<v Speaker 1>on October fifteenth. It's called Killer Cocktails. You can get

0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:59.400
<v Speaker 1>it anywhere books are sold. It also has silly illustrations.

0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:04.360
<v Speaker 1>I have been sort of watching from Afar as the

0:40:05.840 --> 0:40:07.560
<v Speaker 1>over the time that you've been working on this book,

0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:09.880
<v Speaker 1>and it sounds very cool and I'm very excited to

0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:12.759
<v Speaker 1>read it. Thank you. It's it feels like it's been

0:40:12.800 --> 0:40:16.840
<v Speaker 1>one hundred years that we've been working on it, and

0:40:16.880 --> 0:40:19.359
<v Speaker 1>it's been very hard to be cagy with people when

0:40:19.400 --> 0:40:21.839
<v Speaker 1>they ask me like on social media, are you ever

0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:25.640
<v Speaker 1>gonna put up a website? And I'm like, stay, dude, hey,

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:27.719
<v Speaker 1>the whole time, I know, like there's a book, I

0:40:27.760 --> 0:40:29.960
<v Speaker 1>just can't announce it yeeah. So now it's nice to

0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:33.239
<v Speaker 1>be able to be like it's going you can buy it.

0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:37.480
<v Speaker 1>I did not pick this listener mail to provide. I waited.

0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:40.800
<v Speaker 1>As I was reading it, I was like, huh, Holly

0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.759
<v Speaker 1>has a cocktail book coming out. I do? I do.

0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:46.800
<v Speaker 1>And I should also mention that my co host on

0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:50.320
<v Speaker 1>the show, Maria Tremarky, wrote it with me, so I

0:40:50.360 --> 0:40:52.120
<v Speaker 1>don't want to leave her out of all of the

0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:55.040
<v Speaker 1>stuff because she was integirl and you know, just as

0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:58.040
<v Speaker 1>in it as I was. But yeah, it's been an

0:40:58.080 --> 0:41:02.400
<v Speaker 1>exciting ride too, and also daunting to come up with

0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:05.200
<v Speaker 1>what feels like one million cocktail recipes. Really I think

0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:11.040
<v Speaker 1>it's like eighty one because some entries have more than

0:41:11.080 --> 0:41:14.160
<v Speaker 1>one cocktail, Like, right, there's one that has a flight

0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:17.319
<v Speaker 1>of shots. Fun, but like the shots are not like

0:41:17.480 --> 0:41:20.200
<v Speaker 1>pour two ounces of whiskey ports. They're like little mini

0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.960
<v Speaker 1>cocktails and then lie on the floor. Yeah, because our

0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:27.680
<v Speaker 1>rule of thumb on the show in general in life

0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:30.399
<v Speaker 1>is like one people should drink whatever and however they

0:41:30.440 --> 0:41:35.120
<v Speaker 1>want two, Like, people don't need to just stick to

0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.880
<v Speaker 1>like a spirit and a mixer when making their own cocktails.

0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:40.520
<v Speaker 1>You can add a couple more things and just kind

0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 1>of like get a more elevated or fun experience. Yeah,

0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:48.279
<v Speaker 1>but also not nothing too fussy, easy enough. You don't

0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:51.799
<v Speaker 1>have to have a lot of skills or stuff. So yeah,

0:41:51.840 --> 0:41:55.000
<v Speaker 1>that's if it sounds like a fun way to experience

0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:57.799
<v Speaker 1>historical true crime to you, you can go pick it up.

0:41:57.800 --> 0:42:01.879
<v Speaker 1>I hope you do. Yeah, all right, if you want

0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:04.200
<v Speaker 1>to send us a note, were at History Podcasts at

0:42:04.239 --> 0:42:08.520
<v Speaker 1>iHeartRadio dot com and you can subscribe to the podcast

0:42:08.640 --> 0:42:10.840
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app and wherever else you'd like to

0:42:10.840 --> 0:42:18.800
<v Speaker 1>get your podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is

0:42:18.800 --> 0:42:23.160
<v Speaker 1>a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:26.640
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0:42:26.680 --> 0:42:27.560
<v Speaker 1>your favorite shows.