WEBVTT - NASA's Jared Isaacman Talks Ramping Up Space Exploration & SpaceX

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>NASA has selected Jeff Bezos's Blue Origin, Fireflight Aerospace and

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<v Speaker 2>other private space firms to deliver robotic landers, rovers even

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<v Speaker 2>drones to the Moon, part of a broader push to

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<v Speaker 2>establish a sustained lunar presence before the end of the decade.

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<v Speaker 2>We are talking about a base on the Moon. Here

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<v Speaker 2>to discuss is NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman. Jared, it's good

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<v Speaker 2>to see you again and welcome back to Bloomberg Tech.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the question for most people is the timeline

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<v Speaker 2>right and which milestones you've set the team, the agency

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<v Speaker 2>has set itself from today to a future where we

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<v Speaker 2>have the first human landing on the Moon for that base.

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<v Speaker 3>So great to be chatting with you again on a

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<v Speaker 3>subject that I really enjoy, which is America's return to

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<v Speaker 3>the Moon and building that enduring presence, building the moonbase.

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<v Speaker 3>Now we are very advantage, which is why we can

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<v Speaker 3>move so quickly because of programs like clips like LTV

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<v Speaker 3>that have existed for some time at NASA. Now we're

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<v Speaker 3>we're just turning up the wattage here. We're you know,

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<v Speaker 3>sending a strong demand signal to industry. Instead of infrequent

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<v Speaker 3>bespoke landers you know every couple years, maybe one rover

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<v Speaker 3>every ten thirteen years, which was actually you know, a

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<v Speaker 3>previous consideration to saying, let's get in a rhythm here.

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<v Speaker 3>So we put a strong demand signal out to industry.

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<v Speaker 3>We have a handful of missions that are going to launch,

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<v Speaker 3>to robotic missions start building the Moon based later in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty six, but starting in twenty twenty seven, you

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<v Speaker 3>should see see a near monthly cadence of robotic landers

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<v Speaker 3>on the Moon, several rovers. In fact, we initially we

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<v Speaker 3>provided an award for the first two you know, crude

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<v Speaker 3>and autonomous capable rovers for the lunar surface. So when

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<v Speaker 3>our astronauts arrive on Artemis four and twenty twenty eight,

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<v Speaker 3>they're going to already have some infrastructure the moon base

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<v Speaker 3>waiting for them.

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<v Speaker 4>They're already going to have a rover waiting for them.

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<v Speaker 1>And then in that timeframe, it's not just intermittent anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not just those monthly visits, but when do you

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<v Speaker 1>think people be working, Humans might even be living in

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<v Speaker 1>some capacity on the Moon there.

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<v Speaker 3>So we are approaching the moon base in phases. So

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<v Speaker 3>phase one is a lot of littles. We are dusting

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<v Speaker 3>off the playbook that work very well for NASA in

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<v Speaker 3>the nineteen sixties. We're getting back to an iterative approach.

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<v Speaker 3>So there was the Mercury program before there was Geminy,

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<v Speaker 3>There was Geminy before Apollo, and an awful lot of

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<v Speaker 3>Apollo missions before we went right to the moon landing

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<v Speaker 3>on Apollo eleven. We are doing the same thing now.

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<v Speaker 3>So Phase one we're calling it a science of survival.

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<v Speaker 3>We're not going to lock in what the mobility strategy

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<v Speaker 3>should be, for logistics for astronauts, the power strategy, the

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<v Speaker 3>surface comms, the orbital comms. Why would we try and

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<v Speaker 3>nail and get all of that perfect today when we

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<v Speaker 3>haven't been to the moon in more than a half century.

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<v Speaker 3>So Phase one will be a lot of land again

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<v Speaker 3>that near monthly cadence to learn and inform Phase two,

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<v Speaker 3>where perhaps now you're putting a lot more tonnage on

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<v Speaker 3>the lunar surface. You have a lot more direction as

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<v Speaker 3>to the type of hardware and capabilities you want to

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<v Speaker 3>lock in on, so you don't need to have maybe

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<v Speaker 3>monthly landings when we get into phase two, but you

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<v Speaker 3>have a lot more direction as to what should work

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<v Speaker 3>for our intended objectives, which is to build out that

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<v Speaker 3>habital environment. And then phase two we're going to learn

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<v Speaker 3>now having astronauts go from let's call it a period

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<v Speaker 3>of maybe even days on the lunar surface in Phase

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<v Speaker 3>one to potentially weeks in Phase two, to where you

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<v Speaker 3>might get by the time we move into Phase three,

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<v Speaker 3>a similar astronaut rotation like you see on the International

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<v Speaker 3>Space Station, where we could have crews potentially being on

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<v Speaker 3>the lunar surface for months on end.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have that marked on your calendar, administrator, when

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<v Speaker 2>Phase three might have a base that has humans actually

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<v Speaker 2>living and working inside it.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, we absolutely have time frames.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean we are looking at basically twenty seven through

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty nine for Phase one. You have twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 3>nine out into the early twenty thirties for Phase two.

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<v Speaker 3>But again this is all going to be informed on

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<v Speaker 3>what we learn during those first landings in phase one.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, we have a plan which is really good,

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<v Speaker 3>but we are going to learn, and we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>learn from every one of our robotic missions, every lander

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<v Speaker 3>that we put on the Moon to inform the next

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<v Speaker 3>there is a world we could pull in timeframes and

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<v Speaker 3>I was just talking with our Moon based team on

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<v Speaker 3>that just a week or two ago. You may not

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<v Speaker 3>need twenty some odd, you know, landings under Phase one

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<v Speaker 3>in order to get the in order to make determinations

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<v Speaker 3>as to what the early phase two habitation and power

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<v Speaker 3>and mobility consideration should look like. So I would say

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<v Speaker 3>we're extremely focused on the mission of making sure when

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<v Speaker 3>American astronauts returned to the lunar surface there's going to

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<v Speaker 3>be infrastructure there and to evolve into that enduring presence

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<v Speaker 3>to master the skills for where we go next, which

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<v Speaker 3>is which is Mars. We have a great timeline, it's

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<v Speaker 3>very well resourced, and we certainly have the best some

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<v Speaker 3>Brightest and NASA work on it. We'll adjust those timelines

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<v Speaker 3>as we learn.

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<v Speaker 2>Jared, what gave you so much conviction on Blue Origin

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<v Speaker 2>and Mark one in the first instance.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I would just say, we have a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>industry that's very excited to participate right now, So we

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<v Speaker 3>put a heck of a demand signal out to industry

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<v Speaker 3>during the ignition event. There were a lot of bidders

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<v Speaker 3>across the landers, across the rovers. The Blue Origin Mark

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<v Speaker 3>one is extremely useful for us in terms of the

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<v Speaker 3>amount of mass it can put on the lunar surface.

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<v Speaker 3>That's why we're going to use it for the actual

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<v Speaker 3>rovers themselves, which are not small. I think also very

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<v Speaker 3>importantly as we are partnered with Blue Origin as one

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<v Speaker 3>of our two providers for putting astronauts on the Moon,

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<v Speaker 3>so we're going to learn an awful lot from these

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<v Speaker 3>Mark one landings that are that are coming up. The

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<v Speaker 3>transfer stage has got is very comparable to Blue Origins

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<v Speaker 3>approach for putting astronauts on the surface, and even though

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<v Speaker 3>the lander itself will be different, there'll be equaliss in

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<v Speaker 3>other capabilities necessary to sustain life and to crew errate it.

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<v Speaker 3>They will obviously learn a lot putting their landers on

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<v Speaker 3>the surface of the Moon will learn a lot, and

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<v Speaker 3>that will help inform for Artemis four and beyond, where

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<v Speaker 3>we are going to count on Blue Origin, as we

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<v Speaker 3>are going to count on SpaceX for getting our astronauts

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<v Speaker 3>and even more mass on the surface of the Moon

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<v Speaker 3>and we move into Phase two and three.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about SpaceX, Let's talk about Starship. Let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about what you learned for Artemis on Friday night. How

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<v Speaker 1>much confidence do you still have and dependence do you

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<v Speaker 1>have on Starship succeeding.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think said simply, SpaceX is are is

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<v Speaker 3>probably our greatest commercial space company, hands down. We rely

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<v Speaker 3>on SpaceX heavily to put our astronauts to and from

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<v Speaker 3>the International Space Stations. We just modified an award to

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<v Speaker 3>provide up to I think six additional missions to SpaceX.

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<v Speaker 3>In that regard, they pioneered rapid reusability catching rockets on

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<v Speaker 3>ships on land that directly supports our scientific endeavors. We

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<v Speaker 3>are able to launch more missions of science and discovery

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<v Speaker 3>thanks to SpaceX. It's substantially brought down the cost of

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<v Speaker 3>capabilities that we put in geostationary orbits, some of the

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<v Speaker 3>heavy mass items that we use Falcon Heavy for. I

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<v Speaker 3>have no doubt Starship is going to contribute in a

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<v Speaker 3>very meaningful way. I've described it as almost a light

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<v Speaker 3>switch moment for humanity when you have a fully reusable

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<v Speaker 3>booster and upper stage that's going to be able to

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<v Speaker 3>efficiently put lots of mass, not just on the surface

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<v Speaker 3>of the Moon, someday on Mars. So you have SpaceX,

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<v Speaker 3>you have Blue Origin, you have an extremely healthy commercial

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<v Speaker 3>industry that's going to be able to support the construction

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<v Speaker 3>of the Moon base, is Blue.

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<v Speaker 1>Moon a good backup if say the big bold bets

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<v Speaker 1>that SpaceX takes to take a bit longer than perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>have been anticipating, we do see some timeline shift back.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that's why, in the wisdom of Congress

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<v Speaker 3>they were very supportive of NASA to have two hls,

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<v Speaker 3>two commercial landing providers under contract. And look, just as

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<v Speaker 3>competition on the geopolitical stage is driving a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>NASA's moves right now, which is a good thing. It

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<v Speaker 3>worked incredibly well for NASA during the first race. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>competition works very well among industry. You know, you go

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<v Speaker 3>to the Air and Space Museum here in Washington, DC,

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<v Speaker 3>when you walk through the main doors, you're going to

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<v Speaker 3>see a grummin lemb the landers that we use to

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<v Speaker 3>put astronauts back on the Moon during the first Space Race.

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<v Speaker 3>I have no doubt whether it's SpaceX or Blue Origin,

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<v Speaker 3>they'd like to see their landers there as well, So

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<v Speaker 3>I think they understand what's at stake. We love the

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<v Speaker 3>competition between the two of them. And the nice thing is,

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<v Speaker 3>over the next couple of years, we're going to see

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<v Speaker 3>an awful lot of New Glen's launch. We're going to

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<v Speaker 3>see an awful lot of Mark one landers. We're going

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<v Speaker 3>to see an awful lot of starships, and then we're

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<v Speaker 3>going to bring them all together with Artemis III in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty seven.

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<v Speaker 2>Jared, there's an awful lot of focus right now on

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<v Speaker 2>the orbital economy or future orbito economy, in part because

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<v Speaker 2>of SPACEXS S one. Right, But I believe earlier this

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<v Speaker 2>year on a podcast, you said that the orbital economy,

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<v Speaker 2>or the idea of it, has been grossly overstated. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>you were pretty modest. I suppose about what the reality

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<v Speaker 2>that looks like As your thinking on that changed, and

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<v Speaker 2>what led you to make those comments. What is it

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<v Speaker 2>that you see about a future economy in space, indeed

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<v Speaker 2>on the Moon, that maybe industry is overstating or the

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<v Speaker 2>outside world is overstating.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, look, I'm just to be clear. I want nothing

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<v Speaker 3>more than to see an orbital economy. I want to

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<v Speaker 3>see a lunar economy come to fruition. I want lots

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<v Speaker 3>of commercial space stations, lots of outposts on the Moon.

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<v Speaker 3>I want my kids to grow up in a world

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<v Speaker 3>where maybe they could go to the Moon and then

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<v Speaker 3>we press on, we press onto Mars.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it's my job when I when I.

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<v Speaker 3>Take a look at the resources that are entrusted into

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<v Speaker 3>the agency by Congress, by the taxpayers every single year

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<v Speaker 3>to make sure you know that we maximize the scientific

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<v Speaker 3>discovery value out of every bit of it. And that

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<v Speaker 3>results in making you know, kind of a build by

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<v Speaker 3>partner decision on almost every procurement. And in that regard,

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<v Speaker 3>there are some areas where we can buy services. NASA

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<v Speaker 3>can where we are one customer of many, and that

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<v Speaker 3>that's a great thing because then you have competitive forces

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<v Speaker 3>that can improve a product and service capability and drive

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<v Speaker 3>down costs. We know this to exist as it has

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<v Speaker 3>existed for more than a half century. In launch, observation,

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<v Speaker 3>and communication, NASA is one customer of many across all

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<v Speaker 3>three of those services. The dow is other commercial companies

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<v Speaker 3>are when we start looking at other things to do,

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<v Speaker 3>like let's just say, build a moon base.

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<v Speaker 4>And I said this in yesterday's prece event.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, I can put a demand signal out to industry

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<v Speaker 3>and buy dozens of landers for the lunar surface to

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<v Speaker 3>start constructing the moon base ten years from now. Can

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<v Speaker 3>I tell you who's going to buy the fiftieth lander

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<v Speaker 3>if it's not NASA. I don't have a clue, but

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<v Speaker 3>I certainly hope that we will find a way to

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<v Speaker 3>get more value out than what we have to put

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<v Speaker 3>in to being on the lunar surface or being in

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<v Speaker 3>microgravity outside of the established launch, observation and communication economy

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<v Speaker 3>that already exists, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And the demand signals being put out by NASA, but

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<v Speaker 1>they're also being put out by other countries and other

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<v Speaker 1>ways in which we see competitions versus China. How do

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<v Speaker 1>you see the Chinese focus on the moon and whether

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<v Speaker 1>it is a real competitive force versus NASA right now?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, like I said, competition is a great thing. It

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<v Speaker 3>worked incredibly well for us during the first Spase race

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<v Speaker 3>in the nineteen sixties. It allows us to do exactly

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<v Speaker 3>what we're doing now at NASA, which is concentrate our

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<v Speaker 3>resources on the most pressing national objectives and then also

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<v Speaker 3>to empower our workforce to move at a speed that

0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:28.920
<v Speaker 3>they haven't done in decades. And I'd say we're off

0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.160
<v Speaker 3>to a good start coming off of Artemis two and

0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.240
<v Speaker 3>where we're going next with Artemis three in twenty twenty seven.

0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.720
<v Speaker 3>In terms of how I see this competition now, look

0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:40.679
<v Speaker 3>that getting the boots on the surface of the Moon

0:11:40.720 --> 0:11:42.960
<v Speaker 3>itself is probably going to be the closest element to this.

0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:45.719
<v Speaker 3>I would say that the Chinese approach to it is

0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:48.920
<v Speaker 3>very similar to the Apollo program, lots of missions, iterative approach.

0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:51.880
<v Speaker 3>We were up until a couple months. We're going to

0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.120
<v Speaker 3>go going from Artemis two flying around the Moon to

0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.000
<v Speaker 3>waiting three years to landing on the Moon, which I've

0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.320
<v Speaker 3>said many times is not ingredients for success. You need

0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.720
<v Speaker 3>to be in the business launching heavy lift rockets with frequency,

0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:04.440
<v Speaker 3>and you can't turn them all into a work of art.

0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.080
<v Speaker 3>That said, I think NASA is extremely advantaged thanks to

0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.640
<v Speaker 3>our partnership with industry and building the Moon base. Like

0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.360
<v Speaker 3>I said, we had the CLIPS program, we have the

0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 3>LTV program. We have the healthiest launch market in the

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.400
<v Speaker 3>history of America's space program from SpaceX and Blue Origin

0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.000
<v Speaker 3>Rocket Lab Stoke, I mean, you name it. That means

0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.199
<v Speaker 3>we have the ability to put a lot of mass

0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 3>on the lunar surface exactly where we want to be,

0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:31.120
<v Speaker 3>not just landers, but rovers, start experimenting with power, mobility, communications,

0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:32.560
<v Speaker 3>all the things you need to build a moon base.

0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.560
<v Speaker 3>We are very advantaged in that regard. And then in

0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.320
<v Speaker 3>terms of what comes next. We are going to finally

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.400
<v Speaker 3>America is going to finally get underway a nuclear power

0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.880
<v Speaker 3>propulsion in space in twenty twenty eight when we launch

0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:45.720
<v Speaker 3>SR one Freedom, and that is key to extending to

0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.280
<v Speaker 3>achieving human missions to Mars someday and exploring the outer

0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:51.400
<v Speaker 3>Solar System. So we have a lot of advantages, but

0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.600
<v Speaker 3>probably the one that people are paying most attention to

0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:55.640
<v Speaker 3>that is going to come down to months