1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: My name is Mett, my name is all they called 6 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: me Ben. We are joined as always with our super 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you. 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: want you to know. Today, we are starting in a 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: very understandable space. Many of our fellow listeners have had 11 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: terrible experiences in high school. Uh and many of our 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: listeners maybe in high school as they hear the story today. 13 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: Imagine you're back in high school. You're a student, You're 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: kind of board, you're dozing in class, you're massively stressed out. 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: It's your last year before you graduate because you have 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: to tackle all these tremendously important exams. Like most kids, 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: you are exhausted by hours and hours of endless studying, 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: and you're kind of just excited to get the year 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: over with. When you feel a hard, sharp tap on 20 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: your shoulder and it jolts you awake. You turn around 21 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, the world falls dark, your 22 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: head explodes in pain. You're bombarded by these scenes of violent, 23 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: otherworldly land's nightmare. It's like it's like that montage and 24 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: event horizon. You try to scream, but you cannot make 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: a sound. And then later when you regain your faculties, 26 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: you learned that this happened to people throughout your entire 27 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: school on the same day, around the same time. This 28 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: is what happened to a seventeen year old named ct 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: NeuRA Nissa. This is the case of the Screaming Girls 30 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: of Malaysia. Here are the facts. Yeah, today's story takes 31 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: us to a place in Malaysia called Klantan Um, which 32 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: is pretty isolated, very rural place on the border of Thailand. 33 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: Um it's known as Peninsular Malaysia on the west side, 34 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: on the west side of the country, the western edge 35 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: of the country and in many ways Um Kilanton is 36 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: culturally and to an off mike discussion, we had none 37 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: of us are Malaysian, uh, nor do we have familiarity 38 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: even he listening much to this particular dialect of Malaysian. 39 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: So we're going to do our level best as always, 40 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: but you know, try and get with the benefit of 41 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: the data if you can so. In many ways, Kilanton 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: is culturally distinct from other parts of the country. Um. 43 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: For example, it has this local language that we're talking 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: about called Kilantan Patani malay Um, and too many outsiders 45 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: this wouldn't be something they could even parse at all, 46 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: even those fluent and standard Malay, which is the common 47 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: tongue of the language. This area is also overwhelmingly religious. Yeah, 48 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: about of the population there is Muslim, and unlike the 49 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: rest of the country, killing Ton's week follows the Islamic calendar, 50 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: as opposed to the Gregorian or any other calendar that 51 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: is accepted by large groups of people. The work actually 52 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: begins on Sunday, the actual start of the week, at 53 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: least according to the Gregorian calendar and many others UM, 54 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: and it ends on Thursday, which is just a little 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: bit different. So you have Friday and Saturday essentially what 56 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 1: would be considered the weekends. And if you're thinking about 57 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: just Malaysia as as a whole, this place really does 58 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: almost function as a separate country, although it is not. Yeah, 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: that's right. It is culturally distinct in a number of ways, 60 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: but of course it is still part of the country 61 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: of Malaysia, and it's the has everything that a modern 62 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: country has, school systems, infrastructure and so on. So kids 63 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: can't play hooky really, and that's why in July of eighteen, 64 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: this seventeen year old Sita was just like any other 65 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: student at her school, the Keta National Secondary School. It's 66 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: called SMK Keta there in Kalutun. She can now recall 67 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: that sensation, that tap that eventually led to her falling 68 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: to the floor. She remembers the visions she saw, especially 69 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: a a face of pure evil. That's how she described 70 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: it before she passed out due to this blinding pain 71 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: in her head. It's no secret that high school is 72 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: an immensely stressful time for students, both on a social 73 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: level but also on a physiological level. Your body is changing, 74 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: and it's also as everyone can recall, it's not uncommon 75 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: for students to have bouts of nervousness, panic attacks, depression 76 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: and so on. That's that's just part of growing up. 77 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,799 Speaker 1: And also it's such a again, such a emotionally trying 78 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: and exhausting time. I would just say it's a part 79 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: of growing up. It's also just a part of reality 80 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: now for everybody it's almost like we all got transferred 81 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: back into that feeling. I don't know. I think a 82 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: lot of us still have, you know, dreams of high 83 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: school years afterwards, right or decades later. There might be 84 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: somebody in our audience today who is in, for instance, 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: their sixties, and tonight when they sleep, they will be 86 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: a junior in high school. Again, you don't ever really 87 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: graduate in the mind, you know. However, what seed of 88 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: felt happening to her and what observers saw were two 89 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: very different things. They saw Seeda collapse and her best friend, 90 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: Rusta Roselin remembers she was watching Sita and remember Cita 91 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: felt like she couldn't scream, like in a nightmare. She 92 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: was trying to make a noise, and all they came 93 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: out was like But her best friend, the other classmates 94 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: and the teacher watched her screaming uncontrollably at the top 95 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: of her lungs, and they were too frightened to touch her. 96 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: It looked like was she seizing what was going on? 97 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: They would They definitely weren't restraining her, and then somehow 98 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: disappeared to become contagious within minutes, children throughout the entire school, 99 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: in other classrooms started screaming, having these fits uncontrollably falling 100 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: to the floor. One child fainted and she claimed that 101 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: she saw the same figure, that face of pure evil 102 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: that Sita saw right before she passed out. Um. It 103 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: makes me think of, like, you know, something from the 104 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: Crucible or something. You know, this whole idea of contagious 105 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: uh insanity or um, contagious hysteria. I guess which was 106 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: something that we saw during the sale and which trials 107 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: which that play is based around. The those that were 108 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: unaffected um by this, I guess contagious screaming um. And 109 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: some teachers began to panic. I mean, this is well, 110 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: we'll get to it a little later, um, but this 111 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: was just in terms of like some some audio, but 112 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: this was an absolutely unsettling, to say the least, if 113 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: not terrifying, panic inducing situation. They actually ran away and 114 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: locked themselves into classrooms, barricading the doors. They felt as 115 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: though they were in danger. The visceral nous of these 116 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: screams and of this violence and trauma unseen being done 117 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: upon these these uh, these young people can't even imagine. 118 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they absolutely just bolted uh self. Preservation became 119 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: top of mind. Which is saying a lot. When you're 120 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: someone who's there to like help and nurture and you know, 121 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: be a guardian to these students, you immediately are so 122 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: freaked out that you're like, peace, I gotta go, Like 123 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: this is too much. UM. People outside the school heard 124 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: the screams as absolute cacophony. Uh. You know of this, 125 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: of this noise, shrill, horrid noise. UM. One food stall owner, 126 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: like a food truck across the street, UM recalls seeing 127 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: at least nine different girls being carried kicking and screaming 128 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: out of different parts of the school, different classrooms. UM. 129 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: Authorities called in Islamic spiritual leaders and healers to perform 130 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: um the equivalent of something along the lines of an exorcism, 131 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: and we'll call it a mass prayer session. Uh. And 132 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: you could probably imagine the scene, Ben, you want to 133 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: paint it for us. Well, here's here's the issues. So 134 00:08:55,440 --> 00:09:01,479 Speaker 1: the food stall owner reports seeing the these religious authorities, 135 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: these spiritual healers arrive at the scene with their helpers, 136 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: and then they also disappear inside for hours. These healers 137 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: do consider this a matter of mass possession. But there's 138 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: a frightening thing here. This is somewhat of a controversial observation. 139 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: In some ways, this uncertainty, this sheer, physical terror and 140 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: panic are similar to what people have reported experiencing during 141 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: one of the all too common mass shooting incidents at 142 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: schools in the United States. And this is not you know, 143 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: this is not to say there are in any way 144 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: apples to apples, as the corporate world would put it, 145 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: but we can understand emotionally the uncertainty and the whole 146 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: or that the teachers especially are confronted with when they're 147 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: trying to protect these students and realizing, you know, very 148 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: quickly how many more students there are than teachers, and 149 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: that they can't that they're powerless to either comfort them. 150 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: It's not that kind of thing. It's like so aggressively 151 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,000 Speaker 1: taken hold of these these children that there's not they're 152 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: literally thrashing as though they're having fits or seizures or something, 153 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: and that they're there in lies the whole impulse that Okay, 154 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: I think I better just extricate myself for for the 155 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: time being, you know. Yeah, And I would just add, 156 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: when you're talking about that uncertainty, to to be there 157 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: in the room to experience this is something that you know, 158 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: the three of us can't fathom. Maybe maybe you can't 159 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: right now in this moment, you get a sense of it, 160 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: but not knowing whether there is something real affecting these children, um, 161 00:10:55,880 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: not knowing whether you know a single child had something happened, 162 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: and then the rest are reacting to that. You you like, 163 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: you literally have no idea what's going on, and you've 164 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: got in the back of your mind perhaps the belief 165 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: that there is something supernatural or otherworldly or beyond the earth, 166 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: essentially beyond things that can occur here physically to a child, 167 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: you believe it's perhaps something like that could be happening, 168 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: and if that's happening, then you could also be affected 169 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: right as a teacher, as a guardian. That's keyed. I 170 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: would say it's exacerbated in this situation because this area 171 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: of Malaysia, this town specifically, it's small. The people are 172 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: close knit. You probably know everyone or you know of 173 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: them if you're here. And again this this area has 174 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: a deep, fertile history of folklore, you know what I mean, 175 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: The cultural ecology is very strong. So I would say, uh, 176 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: it would be in the front of my mind for 177 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: many people, for for reasons We're gonna find out very soon. 178 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: By the time just a few hours have passed. By 179 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: the time the day is done, thirty nine people, including 180 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: a couple of adults a couple of teachers, are have 181 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: clearly been affected by something. And again, because this is 182 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 1: a small town, news travels quickly. Is this a case 183 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: of magic? Is this a case of mass possession? What 184 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: could cause with no no clear physical explanation, what could 185 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: cause almost forty people to suddenly, without warning and without explanation, 186 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: appear to lose their minds? What exactly was happening here? 187 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: And why did it seem contagious? We'll find out after 188 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: a quick word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy. 189 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: To fully answer this question, we have to understand a 190 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: little more about Malaysia in general, and a little more 191 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: about Kelantan itself. This this is a region of the 192 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: world that is probably unfamiliar to a lot of people 193 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,839 Speaker 1: in the US and the big plot twist. The first 194 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: thing you need to know is this, while this incident 195 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: in is very, very strange, it is by no means 196 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: the first time something like this has happened in Keloton, 197 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: and it's not the first time something like this has 198 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: happened in Malaysia. There may be if you wanted to 199 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: be sensationalistic about it, you could say there may be 200 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: a mass possession crisis in Malaysia. Yeah, we're only talking 201 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: about one school out of sixty eight similar schools that 202 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: are secondary schools that are there in Kelton, and there 203 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: have been events at other schools they were similar to this, 204 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: not exactly the same, but pretty similar. Just two years prior, 205 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: in sixteen that there was another outbreak in multiple schools, 206 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: not just one. It seems like stretches of the entire 207 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: region were hit with very much the same thing. There's 208 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: one case where a hundred children were affected rather than 209 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: thirty nine in this case, a hundred children in a 210 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: single school in Kota Baru. And also get this, another 211 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: school in Kellyton, a different one than the one we're 212 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: discussing in this main case we're talking about. Can we 213 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: really quickly there's actually an article that we found, uh 214 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: in researching this from the Kota Baru incident where there's 215 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: a video of of this uh this behavior and I 216 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: think it really it's it's identical to what we're hearing 217 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: from the case. You know, at the top of the 218 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: show and a lot of these other cases. UM. The article, 219 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: which you can find on a cycled ancient origins UM, 220 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: there is discussion of seeing a figure clad in black, 221 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: you know, which is probably, to me, the same type 222 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: of figure that's this like face of evil. There's a 223 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: quote UM from one of the girls from the school 224 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: saying it was haunting me. I couldn't escape. I opened 225 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: my mouth and tried to scream, but no sound came out. 226 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: I passed out, UM and referring to this black figure. 227 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: And there's even like another video or a still where 228 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: it kind of tries to highlight this figure, like circling 229 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: it with a you know, like a like a digital 230 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: sharpie in the background. But can we can we all 231 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: listen to this together maybe real quick and we can 232 00:15:44,320 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: kind of react U. Yeah, it's it's chilling stuff. And 233 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: then you see the camera whoever's holding the camera just 234 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: kind of walking around and you're just in the midst 235 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: of this, and then there's this one young woman at 236 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: the end or it's actually the video goes on for 237 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: about five minutes, UM, but the part that we watched 238 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: up to just now where she's literally kind of almost 239 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: in a prayer position, but repeatedly going from up to down, 240 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: up to down with her like you know it almost 241 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: it's a very twisted, almost worshipful uh position. Um, it's 242 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: oh my god. It's just really pretty shocking. And I 243 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: believe this may be a different video, but I believe 244 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: I believe this is the one where we see UH 245 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: spiritual healers uh coming in and attempting to restrain people 246 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: reciting prayer. Yeah. In the article they refer to them 247 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: as extra as as as exorcists, but I believe the 248 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: more accurate description would be what you're saying then, just 249 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: spiritual healers from the Muslim faith. Particular prayers from the 250 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: Koran were recited. Yeah, and this will be familiar to 251 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: people who listened to our episode on exorcism or possession 252 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: in the in the non Western world. We because we 253 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: spend as a culture in the West, way too much 254 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: time thinking of Catholicism automatically when we think of exorcism, 255 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: it exists in so many other cultures. And and to 256 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: the point about what to call these individuals, whether you 257 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: want to call them spiritual healers or the BBC British 258 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: Broadcasting took a took a weird stance and called them 259 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,159 Speaker 1: witch doctors. That was that was a quote from someone 260 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: there on the seen apparently, Yeah, I think its scholars 261 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: Islamic experts in which doctors, right, which would be you know, 262 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: people who are practicing the traditional values spiritual beliefs rather 263 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: of the area, many of which pre date Islam probably 264 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: but are now seen through the lens of it due 265 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: to religious syncretism. The point is, you can you can 266 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: hear in that clip that you just platinal how I 267 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: like the way you use the word cacophony, Like how cacophones? 268 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: How terrifying and discordant. This is this looks kind of 269 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: like a riot, you know what I mean? Or a 270 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: mass poisoning. Something has happened to these people. And there 271 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: were interviews about this case in Kota Baru. One of 272 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: the senior teachers or administrators blamed supernatural entities. They're a 273 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: they're considered largely a factual thing in this state in 274 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 1: Malaysia by many people. And this this staff member says, 275 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: our students were possessed and disturbed by the spirits. We 276 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: are not sure why it happened. We don't know what 277 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: it is that affected us. And she pointed out some 278 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: stuff about the school itself. She said, this place is 279 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: a bit old, and these children can be disobedient and 280 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: sometimes throw their rubbish around the school grounds. Perhaps they 281 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: hit some jin and offended the spirits. Gen would be 282 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: kind of uhum. I believe the Malaysian term is uh 283 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: bomo b o m o h we. We mentioned these 284 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: practitioners in an earlier episode on the UH the Orong 285 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: Pandang I believe, yes, yes, we gets greased up and 286 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: runs around uh terrifying people. Well though, isn't there a 287 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: sexual assault? Come hone into that ghost as well? Unfortunately yes. 288 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: But but in this case, we're talking about the Islamic 289 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: faith and Jin like actual jin. Right, That's that's what 290 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: we're referring to, which which is interesting. I love Jin, 291 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: I love I'm excited for that new show that you're 292 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: eping as well. Uh. I write about Jin pretty often 293 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: in my personal life, but man, oh, their intro story 294 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: is amazing too. O. Man, have you seen The Wishmaster. 295 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: It's sort of a lesser West Craven movie from I 296 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 1: guess like the late nineties. The Wishmaster is an evil 297 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Jin and the first sequence in that movie, the rest 298 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: of it whatever, taking leave. The first sequence is bonkers fun. 299 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: I keep thinking about the again, the the Islamic origins story. 300 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: You know, the beans wrought from smokeless flame and they 301 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,479 Speaker 1: think it's green fire and uh. And they're considered, you know, 302 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: as we explored previously, they are considered a very real thing. 303 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: They're an accepted reality of the world in many places, 304 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: especially when there's a large, very traditional Muslim demographic in 305 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: the population. So this, this person is an adult right 306 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: there in a position of authority and responsibility. And they 307 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: also seemed to sincerely believe something supernatural occurred. And whether 308 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: or not you believe there was something supernatural at play, 309 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: this was a disaster eventually. According to a local reporter 310 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: at the time, this twenty sixteen incident and several other 311 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: related incidents at other schools that were happening all clustered 312 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: around this this this same year caused the country of 313 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: Malaysia to shut down all the schools in the area 314 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: because these cases of collective screening or possession or whatever 315 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: you wanna call it appeared to happen one after the 316 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: other NonStop. They were spreading like like uh, like psychic 317 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 1: wildfire from one school to the next. Again, it's not 318 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: just kids. There were a couple of bouts with factory 319 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: workers where a similar thing appeared to occur, I believe 320 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: is the nineteen sixties. UM. So you know, one can 321 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: imagine that whatever is happening, whether it is spiritual, mental, uh, psychological, psychic, 322 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 1: whatever it is, it appears to be much bigger than 323 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: this one isolated incident at this one school that you know, 324 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: was this more newsworthy thing that we were looking at 325 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: at the top of this episode. That seems to be 326 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: a certainty, um. And the you know, the other thing 327 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: is that experts on both sides of this, the more 328 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 1: skeptical and the more believers that there is something spiritual 329 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: happening here, they're still grappling with the root of it. 330 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: What what is truly happening? How do they now address it? 331 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: Is the big question. I think you made a really 332 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: good point earlier, and we've been hinting around this a bit. 333 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: We we talked about the you know, the greasy ghost 334 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: and just the history of Malaysian fascination with lore and 335 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: with demons and with gin and all that stuff. It's 336 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: not just considered stories, especially in the more rural areas 337 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 1: and maybe the less cosmopolitan parts of the country. I mean, 338 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: it's like, you see this and you believe it, and 339 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: you know that that's that that that they really felt 340 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: that they were seeing genuine spiritual phenomenon. And like even me, 341 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 1: you know, being some of those a skeptic or any 342 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: of the three of us, I think faced with what 343 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: we just saw in that video clip, I would react 344 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: to the same way. I just would have been overwhelmed 345 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: and not knowing what to make of it. Not to 346 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: mention if I was tied to some kind of real 347 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: deep religious belief in these phenomenon, you know, I can't. 348 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: I can't even wrap my head around what that must 349 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: have felt like. Yeah, and again we have to were 350 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: being careful here, right because you can you can see 351 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: already that there are competing explanations for this phenomenon. But 352 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: there is something happening, and it has been happening. In fact, 353 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: there were there were other cases from schools in two 354 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: thousand twelve, uh, the factory workers stuff you mentioned, Matt, 355 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: I believe there were other incidents of that as well, 356 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: dating to the nineties, seventies and the eighties. Something is happening, 357 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: and whatever is happening appears to be something bigger than 358 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: an isolated incident at a single school. A second big 359 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: point here is that secular and spiritual experts are grappling 360 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: with the root of this phenomenon as well as the 361 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: best ways to address it. So we have two answers, 362 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: or two I guess proposed frames of thought through which 363 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: we can view this profoundly disturbing phenomenon. We could categorize 364 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: them as the secular answer and the religious or spiritual answer, 365 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: and they both have a lot to bring to bear here. 366 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: What do they have to say? I'll tell you after 367 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back. This secular 368 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: answer concerns group psychology. It may sound mundane at first, 369 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: but there's a fascinating and somewhat disturbing phenomenon play here, 370 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: depending on who you ask. If you ask someone like 371 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: Robert Bartholome, you uh medical sociologist based in the US 372 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: and a long time scholar of this phenomenon, specifically in Malaysia, 373 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 1: then he will tell you this is mass hysteria or 374 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: mass psychogenic illness. It's the rapid spread of genuine physical 375 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: symptoms among a large group of people with no plausible 376 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: organic cause. A man to headache that is contagious the 377 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: way a cold is, but spreads much more quickly. Yeah, Bartholome, 378 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: you refers to this pretty cleverly as a software problem, 379 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: like a glitch, describing the condition as a collective stress 380 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: response prompting an over stimulation of the nervous system. UM. 381 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: And he I don't know, this is a little divisive, 382 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: maybe oversimplification here, but he calls Malaysia the quote mass 383 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: hysteria capital of the world. Um. According to his research, 384 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: uh Kalantan is the quote most religiously conservative of all 385 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: Malaysian states end quote UM. With a perfect storm of 386 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: social factors that can lead to this kind of mass hysteria. 387 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: And that's kind of what we're talking about a little 388 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 1: while ago, just how you would react to this and 389 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: how you would maybe allow yourself to be swept up 390 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: in this kind of you know, fervor. Um. And he says, 391 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,160 Speaker 1: this stuff doesn't happen overnight. Uh. Instead, the environment leads 392 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: to a mass area outbreak. Uh. Kind of in the 393 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: way a pressure cooker might with building up of stress 394 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: in a group until it just pops, you know, it 395 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: hits that breaking point and can't contain the pressure. Anymore. 396 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: You know, I we certainly appreciate the words of U 397 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: Mr Bartholome you, but there's still a bit of controversy, 398 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,400 Speaker 1: I would say, about just this concept of mass hysteria, 399 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: how it begins, what the causes actually are. There's not 400 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: a ton of understanding about it. There's been quite a 401 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: bit of observation of events that appear to be mass hysteria. Certainly, 402 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: so you can study it, right, But if you look 403 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: at the manual that is used for psychology, both students, practitioners, 404 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: everyone alike, the d s M, it is not listed massysteria. 405 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: Mass ysteria is not a thing that is in there um, 406 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: which that doesn't mean it's it's wrong. That's a that 407 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: is a tone that is constantly being updated and it 408 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: is always evolving. So who knows, maybe in the future 409 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: it will be listed in there as we learn more. Yeah. Yeah, 410 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: And that's a really good point because we have to 411 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: remember the d s M is not somehow sacro sanct 412 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: It's had some It's definitely had some evolutions that I 413 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: had to encounter, I believe for times when check me 414 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: on this wasn't homosexuality listed in the d s M. 415 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: Snapshot of how imperfect that that is. And that's not 416 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: a ding on science either, it's just saying we still 417 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: we haven't figured everything out right, And what I like 418 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: about the point you're making here, Matt, is that we 419 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: do not fully understand. Right, You're absolutely right. There's there's 420 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 1: a bit of a black box here with what we 421 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: call mass hysteria, and even his area itself is a 422 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: little bit of a loaded word if you know the etymology. 423 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: So it's a misogynist got misogynist roots, right, like the 424 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: idea of a hysterical woman, or like wandering womb syndrome 425 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff, right, Yeah, the wandering uterus, 426 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: that's right. Yeah, So the etymology of that is not 427 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: perfect either. But to your pointment, whether or not we 428 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: know the specifics, experts consider this a real phenomenon other 429 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: than a theoretical one. There's a there's this book that 430 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: when we were in the office, I used to take 431 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: every opportunity to carry around with me or mention or reference, 432 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: and it's this huge tome called Outbreak. It's an encyclopedia 433 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: of you remember this one matter. I think it's an 434 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: encyclopedia of mass hysteria. Outbreaks documented throughout the world and 435 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: history and time, and I'm starting to realize that Malaysia 436 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: is thoroughly underrepresented in that we're Uh. People like Dr 437 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: Simon Wesley, who was a psychiatrist at King's College Hospital 438 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: in London, described mass hysteria as a collective behavior that 439 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: has common physical symptoms. And again we have to emphasize 440 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: these are physical. It's these people, aren't, you know, like 441 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: pretending I've got a headache or something. They are experiencing 442 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: physiological problems. Yeah, I mean it's sort of like that 443 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: no Sebo effect. We talked about the plus Sebo effect 444 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: and um, the idea that you can feel better when 445 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 1: you believe that the thing that you're taking is efficacious. Uh, 446 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: the no Seebo effect. This is that is the opposite 447 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: of that. We talked about that again in a recent episode. 448 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: It's the idea that you can actually have psychoff like 449 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: psychological or even psychosomatic meaning physiological effects brought on by 450 00:30:55,280 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: the mind. Um, because of the expectation of a fact, 451 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: something like a treatment or perhaps interaction with something more 452 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: spiritual might have on you. Maybe that's not a perfect, 453 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: perfect one to one comparison, but but it sure feels similar, 454 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: like you could really actually manifest sickness or or you know, 455 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: seizures or some kind of real visceral body reactions to 456 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: something that is an unseen thing that may or may 457 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: not be quote unquote real. And those physical reactions that 458 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: that was talking about there, and what we talked about 459 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: earlier in the episode with what these children were experiencing, 460 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: or things like fainting, palpitations of the heart, headaches, nausea, shaking, 461 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: and what we would call fits which would just you know, 462 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: I mean, just being uncontrollable in some way, which which 463 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: would again kind of look as though it might be 464 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 1: a seizure. Um and Dr Wesley, this person from King's 465 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: College we're talking about. He notes that mass hysteria is 466 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: quote often attribute into a medical condition, but for which 467 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: no conventional biomedical explanation can be found. And and one 468 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: of the one of the biggest things about this whole 469 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: thing is that, you know, let's say this is occurring 470 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: to one person because they are thinking about something, they 471 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: just experience something, and they're going through whatever this is 472 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: and how it's manifesting. The weirdest thing is the transmission 473 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: of the identical thing or the mirroring, if you know, 474 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: if you want to be extremely skeptical about it, like 475 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: why does this transmit to other people? Or why do 476 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: other people mirror these actions? That's one of the biggest questions. 477 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: And and why are yeah, like okay? For instance, another 478 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: physiological symptom of mass hysteria would be something like vomiting 479 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: without being too crass, Vomiting can be contagious because it's 480 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: gross to watch someone throw up and that makes other 481 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: people throw up sometimes. So we can explain some of these, 482 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: but how could a headache the contagious? How could involuntary 483 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: body wide fits, shaking, seizing? How could that be contagious? 484 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: We we don't understand. We do understand that there's a commonality. 485 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: There's a demographic that seems particularly prone to mass possession 486 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: or mass hysteria, whatever you want to call it. In Malaysia, 487 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 1: the victims are overwhelmingly young women, usually but not always, 488 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: of the Muslim faith. And this, I think leads us 489 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: to the second lens through which we can view this 490 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: epidemic of of mass hysteria or again mass possession. And 491 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: that's the religious answer. Like we you said earlier, spirits 492 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: jin one thing I would just like to add here, 493 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: while we're still in the more skeptical science realm, is 494 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: the because we're talking, we're talking about um, the demographics 495 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: of people who are affected by this commonly right, we're 496 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: talking about younger women. Something we looked at, we were 497 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: making unobscured the first season was the feelings of powerlessness 498 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: and inability to affect change when you are a younger 499 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: woman in a largely patriarchal society. I'm not the right 500 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: person to be talking about this, but it's just something 501 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: that we think need to note here, and it's something 502 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,320 Speaker 1: that could be occurring in Malaysia as well, and especially 503 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: within as we're transferring now into the more religious factors. 504 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: How much of what occurs in your life as a 505 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: young woman living in a society that is patriarchal and 506 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: possibly religious with almost all male heads, is that you 507 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,399 Speaker 1: feel powerless, You feel unable to speak, much like what 508 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: these young women were saying they experienced, specially Sita, where 509 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: she wants to scream but she cannot scream. She's unable 510 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: to write UM. And I know that's thinking about it 511 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: on a symbolic way or in a symbolic way, And 512 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: I don't know if there's any merit to that, but 513 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 1: there are some callers, at least when they're looking at 514 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: the scene on which trials, who seem to find a 515 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: connection there. And that's that's an excellent point. It's one 516 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: that we have to address, Will explore, uh, will explore 517 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: a little deeper when we're talking about the religious aspects here. 518 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: And I think it's a really smart observation. And it 519 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: also reminds me of the episode we just did on 520 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: polter Geists and the idea of children feeling out of 521 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 1: control and not being able to speak and perhaps using 522 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 1: that as an opportunity to do some of the stuff. 523 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: It's different, you know, some of the poulter Geist type 524 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: mischief definitely different, but related to this whole feeling of powerlessness. Um. 525 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting observation. Man. With that, let's 526 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: dive into the religious lens, which should not be dismissed 527 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 1: and perhaps is dismissed too readily by some experts. Spirits 528 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: Jin the smokeless fire right. Malaysia is a deeply religious, 529 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: deeply spiritual country, and belief in what we in the 530 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: West would call the supernatural is widespread, pticularly as we've 531 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: established in more rural areas, So there are spiritual experts 532 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: as well as secular experts who bring their experience to 533 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: bear on this phenomenon. Consider the spiritual healers like zaki Yah. 534 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 1: Zakiya has been an Islamic spiritual healer for more than 535 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: two decades and he is one of the people who 536 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: helped ct the seventeen year old girl from the two 537 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: thousand nineteen case recover from this incident in the months 538 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: after whatever happened happened. He claims, we share our world 539 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 1: with these unseen beings, meaning Jinn, and he notes that 540 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: like humans, they can be good or bad. I believe that. 541 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: I believe that Western fiction has has sold us a 542 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 1: bill of goods on Jin. The real focalore about them 543 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: is is much more interesting. But Robert Williams did, for 544 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: the record, do a great job in Aladdin. I will 545 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: die on that hill. Is there is there any debate 546 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: around that concept? I thought that was considered a classic role. 547 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,719 Speaker 1: He wasn't. He wasn't portraying a Jin. Guys, the in 548 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: the Jin that he's supposed to be portraying is like 549 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: the most evil kind, right, Come on, well, explain really good? 550 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: Isn't so genie is just like a romanticized kind of 551 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: americanized pronunciation of gen They're not two different things, right, 552 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's different categories, but they are that it 553 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: is just a byproduct of sort of americanizing that word 554 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: gen correct I would say anglicizing. Yeah. So yeah, jin 555 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: come in a couple of different genres and varieties, and 556 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: and like that said, there are some that are just 557 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: purely known to be evil, and then there's some that 558 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,000 Speaker 1: are uh like human beings. They they can have different 559 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: religions as well. They're they're much more impersonality like people honestly, 560 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 1: which I think is is fascinating. Uh So, Zakiya is 561 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 1: considered a spiritual authority, but it doesn't Zakia does not 562 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: believe that science somehow has no place in this conversation. 563 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: We have to realize that, you know, a great deal 564 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: of scientific progress historically came from the Muslim world, you 565 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,919 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like a lot of the theith, 566 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that we do today are 567 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: only possible because people of this faith figured these scientific 568 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: principles out. He says that mental health can play a 569 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: role in many of the cases that he has uh 570 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: he has experienced over his past few decades, and he 571 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,920 Speaker 1: is still adamant mental health aside that jenn are the 572 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: ultimate cause of these outbreaks. He says science is important, 573 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,920 Speaker 1: but it cannot fully explain the supernatural. Nonbelievers, he says, 574 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: to our earlier point in the show, won't understand these 575 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: attacks unless it happens to them. Mm hmm. That's a 576 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: really good point. And he and he's not the only 577 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,640 Speaker 1: healer or a specialist with you know, in the Muslim 578 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: faith that has this position, um Dr mahodin ismail a. 579 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 1: He's a healer in a nearby state or p h 580 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: A n G. He wanted or he was seeking to 581 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: combine spirituality and science right as a way to explain 582 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: this thing and then create an anti hysteria kit. How 583 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: cool is that? Um? It sounds like a great idea, 584 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: sounds innovative and also maybe doesn't sound this way, but 585 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: is expensive. Yeah, that's the most controversial aspect of the 586 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: of the kit. It's about the size of a small suitcase. 587 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: It'll run you around the equivalent of two thousand one 588 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: U S dollars. Wait, what's in it? Do we know? Ammonia? 589 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: There's some bamboo pincers there are a couple of uh 590 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: like gloves. There are a couple of inhalence some cb 591 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: D gummies or something like. I don't know about the CBDO, 592 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: but it's literally just like things you could get anywhere, right, Like, 593 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: what's so special about the kit? It seems a little 594 00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: opportunistic to me. I think our perception of that kit 595 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: would be squarely would rely very much upon our default 596 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: levels of skepticism or belief. You know. It's it's interesting, though, 597 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: because we always see these things in conflict right there. 598 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: They're portrayed spirituality and science as though they are somehow 599 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 1: mutually exclusive. But more secular academics feel that it's crucial 600 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: that we acknowledge the role of spirituality in these investigations. 601 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: I especially enjoyed irma Ismails take on this. She's a 602 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: clinical psychologist at University Putra, Malaysia, and she says Malaysian 603 00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,879 Speaker 1: culture has its own take on this phenomenon of mass 604 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:59,280 Speaker 1: hysteria or mass possession outbreaks, and that integrating spiritual beliefs 605 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,240 Speaker 1: with mental health health treatment is a more realistic approach 606 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: to the problem. You won't make progress with people if 607 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,359 Speaker 1: you if you go in, especially as an outsider, tell 608 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: them everything they're doing is wrong, dismiss what they believe, 609 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: and talk down to them. You know what I mean 610 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: that that's when people do that, they don't really want 611 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 1: a solution. Anytime you see those kind of condescending bully tactics, 612 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: people are doing it in bad faith in my opinion. 613 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,000 Speaker 1: And we have to be careful to avoid the stereotypes 614 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:36,799 Speaker 1: of misrepresentations about the role of religion here we have 615 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: in the past on this show we've been deemed at 616 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: times for seeming too skeptical, uh in one one particular 617 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,560 Speaker 1: aspect of spirituality or another. But deep spiritual faith is 618 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 1: common in so many parts of the world, and it's 619 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: common for a reason. It works for people. It's like science. 620 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: It has profound effects on both lives, whether or not 621 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: you personally believe in the specific aspects of a given 622 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: belief system. There's no denying that spiritual beliefs can and 623 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 1: do exert real effects on the physical world. Yeah, and 624 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 1: some folks believe that the cultural impact of religious practices 625 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: like these could play a role in um the case 626 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: of these mass hysteria outbreaks. A psychologist by the name 627 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: of Afik Nor argues that the stricter implementation of Islamic 628 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: law and schools around this part of the country. It's 629 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:43,399 Speaker 1: absolutely linked to the surge and these kinds of outbreaks. Um. 630 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: He says this quote Malay Muslim girls attend school under 631 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 1: rigid religious discipline, they observe stricter dress codes and can't 632 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: listen to music which isn't Islamic. And then we have 633 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: a clinical psychologist named Stephen Diamond UM who seems to 634 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: agree with Nor, saying that he believes the quote painful, frightening, 635 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: and embarrassing symptoms um, that that we've seen associated with 636 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:13,240 Speaker 1: mass hysteria could actually be, to your point, Matt quote 637 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:19,239 Speaker 1: indicative of a frustrated need for attention um. And in 638 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 1: an article that he wrote for Psychology Today, Diamond asked 639 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: this question, might they're remarkable symptoms be saying something about 640 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: how they are really feeling inside but are unable or 641 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: unwilling to allow themselves to consciously acknowledge, feel, or verbalize. 642 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,200 Speaker 1: And this is exactly this is exactly the point made 643 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: in a previous episode of Stuff they don't want you 644 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:48,759 Speaker 1: to know about possession or exorcism. People are intelligent, right, 645 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: and we we talked about this and poult Geist as well. 646 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: So I don't want to be redundant here. But if 647 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: you are in a society that does not allow you 648 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 1: a voice, you will naturally seek some way to be heard. 649 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: And that way, you know, the same way that sometimes 650 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: kids were saying, Oh, it's not me, it's the poulter Geist, 651 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: and my parents won't listen to me, but then listen 652 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 1: to the poulter geist. It is possible that there are 653 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,840 Speaker 1: people in these patriarchal societies who are saying, well, people 654 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,439 Speaker 1: in power won't listen to me because they think I'm 655 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: somehow less than, but maybe they'll listen if they think 656 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: it's something else, like a jinn. And we're not accusing 657 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 1: these I want to emphasize, at least for me, I'm 658 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,080 Speaker 1: not accusing anybody involved in this of purposefully doing something. 659 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: I think there's a deeper psychological aspect to play, if 660 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, I think we all aren't accusing 661 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 1: anyone of doing something false, right, I mean it must 662 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: feel real, or must be real, or there's some there 663 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,600 Speaker 1: is a real thing that actually occurred. This is this 664 00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,799 Speaker 1: isn't some kind of smoke screen um. And I think 665 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: it be the same for any instance of mass hysteria 666 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 1: like this, The big question is is it some kind 667 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: of internal stress due to societal issues, due to religious issues, 668 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: due to um, you know, the the age and the 669 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 1: stresses of that, or is it something bigger? And that's 670 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, what we're really left with today is trying 671 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: to figure out which parts of this are true. And 672 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, I don't I don't know if we're gonna 673 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,279 Speaker 1: I don't know if we're gonna be able to give 674 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: you that final answer that maybe you'd you'd hope for 675 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: something that we would hope for. But we can at 676 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: least walk away with this knowing all of the possibilities 677 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 1: of what this could be. Yeah, well said, I think 678 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: one of the biggest questions here, regardless of your personal beliefs, 679 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: hinges on the contagious as the aspect of contagion. Right. 680 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 1: Uh So, an outbreak of mass hysteria begins with what 681 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: experts call an index case. That's your canary in the 682 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: coal mine. Figuratively. All it takes is a major spike 683 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,399 Speaker 1: of anxiety in a group situation. Again, typically a close 684 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,919 Speaker 1: knit group of people, right, sometimes people that society does 685 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: not treat as equals. And when this one person breaks, right, 686 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,400 Speaker 1: when when a Sita has this event, this experience, then 687 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: see the people around this person with a see their 688 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,240 Speaker 1: classmate faint or have a fit or scream. This can 689 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:41,719 Speaker 1: trigger a reaction in them, and involuntary reaction, right, just 690 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: like just like another like an illness might spread. No 691 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:49,160 Speaker 1: one decides, hey, I'm gonna get the flu. It just happens, right, 692 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: and you don't have control over it. So there is 693 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: an interesting thing though about Sita. It's a question I 694 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: have for you all because I was reading into her 695 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: her day to day life before this event occurred, and 696 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:07,280 Speaker 1: one thing that she was doing in between these marathon 697 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:13,800 Speaker 1: studying bouts was allegedly playing a Mortal Kombat a mobile 698 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 1: version on her phone, and if you read her firsthand 699 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,200 Speaker 1: descriptions of the visions she experienced, I don't know. This 700 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: is my cultural lens because I know what Mortal Kombat 701 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: looks like, and I was thinking some of these violent 702 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 1: scenes as you describe them, remind me of Mortal Kombat. 703 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: Just like a pretty cool game, but very violent. Yeah. 704 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: So it's possible, right that these outbreaks may be a 705 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: kind of sociological venting mechanism for enormous stress perceived powerlessness 706 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: and and they're framed through this cultural lens of rich folklore, 707 00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:59,160 Speaker 1: this ecosystem of deeply rooted religious beliefs. And you're right, Matt, 708 00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:05,799 Speaker 1: we don't have maybe solid answer on this, but this 709 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 1: episode is a little optimistic for us because there's good news. 710 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,959 Speaker 1: We know what happened after this. Yeah, that's right after 711 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: July these events took place. Authorities um up security at 712 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: the school. They restructured their safety programs, and they began 713 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,520 Speaker 1: to oversee a change in staff. I guess it wasn't 714 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: a good look that those folks bolted and locked themselves 715 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: in the classrooms instead of taking care of these kids. 716 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,520 Speaker 1: They were clearly experiencing trauma. UM. Additionally, the school introduced 717 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: daily prayer and psychology sessions UH to hopefully help alleviate 718 00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,520 Speaker 1: some of these stresses. But I don't know. But what 719 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: do you think, Matt, I see an issue with Hey, 720 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 1: there's either jin possessing children at our school or our 721 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:58,359 Speaker 1: children are going through an intense psychological UH like set 722 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: of issues. Let's increase security, which again has some I 723 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:10,040 Speaker 1: mean has commonalities, but security have psychological effects on the kids. Right, 724 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,880 Speaker 1: But security could be and you know here in the West, 725 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: because things are so militarized now. Um, you know, we 726 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:23,560 Speaker 1: think of security as somebody strapped with a vest and uh, firearms, right, 727 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: metal detectors are like machine gun turrets or something, turning 728 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: turning schools into training prisons. So maybe it's more like 729 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: blessing the building in some way, or more more attention 730 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: per child, you know. Uh. So also do have to 731 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:44,760 Speaker 1: point out from everything I found, I don't know whether 732 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: those psychology lessons are being led by licensed professionals. So, 733 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,839 Speaker 1: but but any kind of counseling can help people at 734 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: such a difficult time in their life. So how about 735 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:59,360 Speaker 1: Sita neur Aissa. We met her at the beginning of 736 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,800 Speaker 1: the story. She had a terrible day in July. You 737 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,239 Speaker 1: will be happy to know that, whether this is a 738 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 1: case of spiritual interference or psychological panic, neither Sita nor 739 00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,520 Speaker 1: any of her classmates were permanently injured in the outbreak, 740 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 1: And as of twenty nineteen, I believe Sta find solace 741 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: and karaoke, She plans to pursue a career as a policewoman, 742 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,200 Speaker 1: and she has not been plagued by possession or hysteria since. 743 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,879 Speaker 1: So we have there, there, you have it, folks, one 744 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,920 Speaker 1: of the rare happy endings to a story on stuff 745 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:43,200 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Yes, happy except for 746 00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 1: the fact that this is going to happen again somewhere 747 00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:51,319 Speaker 1: with other groups of probably young people. Um, and it's 748 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,480 Speaker 1: not gonna be fun and it will be controversial, and 749 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: we consider, I know this is all wrapped up in 750 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,880 Speaker 1: a lot of these these um interpretations of this, but 751 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:04,960 Speaker 1: the idea that when you're faced with one child behaving 752 00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,840 Speaker 1: this way and exhibiting this this type of very intense 753 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:13,640 Speaker 1: um you know, physiological kind of responses or whatever, and 754 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,840 Speaker 1: you are also exposed to this heightened level of belief 755 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: and perhaps fear and some of this you know, demonology 756 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: and this gin and all that stuff that's very much 757 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,279 Speaker 1: and wrapped up in the culture. And as we know 758 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 1: this part there's more rural parts of the country much 759 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:29,360 Speaker 1: more so. Do you think that's where you're the power 760 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,279 Speaker 1: of belief comes in and almost like kicks into high 761 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,360 Speaker 1: gear and it's like, oh, well, if I'm seeing someone 762 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:37,799 Speaker 1: you know, going through this, then then I'm that I 763 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 1: should do I should too, or or the the not 764 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: should but like, I don't know, it's almost subconscious kind 765 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:49,280 Speaker 1: of yeah, A weird kind of psychological spiritual peer pressure. 766 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,960 Speaker 1: I just the whole contagious part of it is what 767 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 1: really it's tough for me. It's it's fascinating. If you'd 768 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: like to read more about this phenomenon, I would recommend 769 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,960 Speaker 1: reading Epidemic Hysteria and Social Change and Outbreak in a 770 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,800 Speaker 1: Lower secondary School in Malaysia. That's in the Singapore Medical 771 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:14,319 Speaker 1: Journal by Jin inte Uh. This is weird because, to 772 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,360 Speaker 1: be completely clear, this was published in nine but a 773 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,560 Speaker 1: lot of the things that said are still spot on. 774 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 1: That just gives you a sense of how long this 775 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,960 Speaker 1: has been going and to your point, Matt, how likely 776 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: it is that there will be similar incidents in the future. 777 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,719 Speaker 1: This has been really interesting and we really want to 778 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,359 Speaker 1: know what you think specifically about this. But before we 779 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: tell you how to get in contact with us, I 780 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: do want to do a quick plug if that's okay, guys. 781 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: I hate to do this, but I I just want 782 00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,360 Speaker 1: to plug the brand new show, The Hidden Gin. It 783 00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:48,719 Speaker 1: is available now. It is spelled d J I N N. 784 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,720 Speaker 1: It's a show we're making with Aaron Manky and Robbia 785 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 1: Chaudry and it is a short series but it's all 786 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,880 Speaker 1: about jin, the different kinds of gin, stories from people 787 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,160 Speaker 1: who have experienced or you know, claim to have experienced, 788 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:07,680 Speaker 1: interaction vision about the uh, the background of like the 789 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,160 Speaker 1: religious background and aspects of that, as well as just 790 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,879 Speaker 1: really anything you could ever want to learn about it. 791 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,680 Speaker 1: It's going to be in this show and it's fascinating, 792 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: utterly fascinating. I recommend checking it out. If you don't 793 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,440 Speaker 1: want to do that, you can check us out and 794 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: we're all over the place on social media, Twitter, on Facebook. 795 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,000 Speaker 1: Most of them were conspiracy stuff. On Instagram, we are 796 00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:36,160 Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff show. That's right. You can also find us 797 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:40,759 Speaker 1: on our preferred spot to interact with listeners and for 798 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,799 Speaker 1: listeners to interact with one another UM called Here's where 799 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. On Facebook. All you gotta do is 800 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: drop a name, uh, one name, two names, three names, 801 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,520 Speaker 1: all the names any name associated with the show will do, 802 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,759 Speaker 1: or just something to let us know that you're a 803 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 1: human person that is aware that this is a podcast 804 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: and a group associated with said podcasts. And then you're 805 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,560 Speaker 1: in lots of fun stuff there. And hey, while you're 806 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,880 Speaker 1: on the internet, how about going over to Apple podcast 807 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,360 Speaker 1: and leaving us a nice review. Um, we want to 808 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,640 Speaker 1: know what you think of the new uh, the new schedule, 809 00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 1: the new um you know, the strange news episodes, and 810 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,879 Speaker 1: the listener mail hearing back from you. We've been really 811 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,680 Speaker 1: enjoying it. How do you feel about it? Let the 812 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,839 Speaker 1: internet know so others can follow suit and discover the show. 813 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,880 Speaker 1: We'd very much appreciate it. Give us a random strange 814 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 1: call one eight three three st d w y t 815 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:31,000 Speaker 1: k uh take three minutes and uh you know, get 816 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,360 Speaker 1: weird with it. We'd love to hear from you, and 817 00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: you may end up on the listener mail segment in 818 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:39,640 Speaker 1: the future, So please let us know whether you are 819 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,800 Speaker 1: comfortable with your story being shared or your name. If 820 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:48,840 Speaker 1: that isn't enough, if this whole like uh Sunday of 821 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,799 Speaker 1: Communication Roots still needs a cherry on top for you, 822 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:55,480 Speaker 1: then boy, do we have good news. You can reach 823 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,400 Speaker 1: us regardless of the day, the time, the hour of 824 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: the season, and our old ash and email address where 825 00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:23,920 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Stuff 826 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,840 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of 827 00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,839 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 828 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,840 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 829 00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,200 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.