1 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Halloway. So, Tracy, we 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: recently did an episode with Matt Klein and we talked 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: about essentially what a disaster German energy policy has been 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: over the last several decades, winding up in this position 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: where it's energy usage is not only heavily reliant on 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Russian gas, it's also really not clean and so even 8 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: if your vision is a low carbon they haven't achieved 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: that either. Yeah, the worst of all worlds, I would say, 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: years of under investment in energy capacity, moving away from 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: nuclear um after Fukushima, increased reliance on Russian gas, which 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: clearly is problematic now, and not actually reducing any of 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: their carbon emissions all at the same time. Yeah, kind 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: of an extraordinarily bad combination. But you mentioned nuclear, and 15 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: of course Germany has been moving away from it for 16 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: some time. But it does feel that even prior to 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: the recent energy price spike, or even prior to this 18 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: sort of heightened awareness on the German energy situation specifically, 19 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: there does seem to be a sort of i don't know, 20 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: rethinking or some sort of turn in people sort of 21 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: reconsidering how much nuclear has been shut down over the 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: last several years, how little new nuclear has been built, 23 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: and whether that's been wise. Yeah, it's definitely been an 24 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: ongoing debate. But I have to admit this is something 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I was aware that nuclear had fallen out 26 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: of favor, but I cannot remember when that moment actually 27 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: happened and what exactly the process was. So obviously Fukushima 28 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: happened in Japan, and there's a lot of concerns around that, 29 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: but I'm very, very interested in how nuclear sort of 30 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: lost the public debate. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, me too. 31 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: And I think obviously, look, you have a handful of 32 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: well known either disasters or near near disasters. But it 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: is interesting that at a time when there's so much 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: interest in reducing carbon emissions, you know, so much has 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: been focused on wind, solar, maybe hydropower, very little about 36 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: how nuclear could be part of the solution, right, And 37 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: at the same time, we have in recent years really 38 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: seen some of the weaknesses or the downsides in certain renewables. 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,839 Speaker 1: So you know, days when there isn't enough wind, we 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: just don't have energy in some parts of the world, 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: Days when there isn't enough sun. We've seen that in 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: places like the UK and also in Texas. Yeah, that's 43 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: exactly right. And so obviously wind and solar could at 44 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: times produce incredibly cheap electricity, but it's intermittent and we 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: don't have the battery technology to store it when it's 46 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: really sunny. As you mentioned, I think it was in 47 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: November December. They're all these days in Europe and it 48 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: was like the wind just was and blowing, and so 49 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: the energy prices sore because what can you do. And so, 50 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: whether it's in the US where we've had a number 51 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: of energy grid blackouts, we saw that in Texas last year, 52 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: whether it's Europe, or the price of electricity is soaring, 53 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: a rethink of nuclear. So I'm very excited about our guests. 54 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: We're going to get the case for nuclear investment today. 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm super excited about our guests. We're gonna be speaking 56 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: with Meredith Anglin. She is the author of the book 57 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: Shorting the Grid, The Hidden Fragility of Our Electric Grid. 58 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: Absolutely fascinating book basically talking about grid policy. Uh and 59 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: somehow it's incredibly readable. It's actually a page turner, even 60 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: though the topic is very dense in our cane. Meredith 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: has a gift for taking what is highly technical and 62 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: making it extremely compelling. And she is also a pro 63 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: nuclear activist in some way and thinks it is the 64 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: solution to many of our energy questions. Prior to writing 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: the book, she has been for several years a researcher 66 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 1: worker in the utility industry on our power problem. So, Meredith, 67 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming out on odd lots, 68 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: thank you so much for inviting me, and I'm so 69 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: happy to be talking to you. Into Tracy Meredith, I 70 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: loved your book. And like I said, and other people 71 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: on Twitter said the same thing. That's like, how is 72 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: a book that is on such a technical topic regulatory policies? 73 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: Are the grades so readable? And I mean it is 74 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: a page turner somehow. But why don't you just give 75 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: us a little bit of your background prior to writing 76 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: the book. What is your experience within the utility and 77 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,600 Speaker 1: energy industry. Well, I was always very interested in chemistry. 78 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: I became a chemist and it was also interested in geology, 79 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: and uh, I was working towards my PhD at University Chicago. 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: I do not complete that. I have a master's and 81 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: I was you know, and so forth. But it was 82 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: in a in mineral chemistry, and when I began thinking 83 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: about what you do with mineral chemistry. When I got 84 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: out of school, I was also interested in geo thermal energy, 85 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: and so I began researching how could I work in 86 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: geothermal I learned enough to be actually getting some little 87 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: contracts in geo thermal and UH. Then I got a 88 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: job at a company that wanted to get into geo 89 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 1: thermal but was working on nitrogen oxide pollution, which is 90 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: a really big problem. And so I was working on 91 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: nitrogen oxide pollution, including UH some patents. UH. Nitrogen oxides 92 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: are one of the prime ingredients in smog, and so 93 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: I was working on that. And then I moved over 94 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: to the Electric Power Research Institute, where I was in 95 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: geothermal energy. So I felt I had finally achieved what 96 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 1: I had wanted to achieve by being in UH geo 97 00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: thermal energy. But then when I was in the search 98 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: group that was in renewables, I began to see sort of, 99 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, the dark side of renewables, not so much. 100 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: The dark side is the fact that they really weren't 101 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: up to the the level of a lift that people 102 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: were claiming they would have, and that when you wanted 103 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: to put in a renewable people objected, And that astonished 104 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: me that the people were trying to stop renewable development. 105 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: How could they do this? But at any rate, um 106 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: I began working with on some similar corrosion issues with 107 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: a group that was working in nuclear, and I began 108 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: to get to know them. Now I didn't have anything. 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: I wasn't against nuclear, but I wasn't. I wasn't like 110 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: drawn to it particularly, But then I began working with them, 111 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: I began to realize its advantages, and I switched over 112 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: to the nuclear group. Later on, I ran a consulting 113 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: company about basically about a corrosion control and water chemistry 114 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: and nuclear plants. And then when I sort of them, 115 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: I retired. I began supporting our local nuclear plan, ver 116 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 1: monty Yankee, which led me into trying to understand how 117 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: Vermont Yankee interacted with the people who ruled the grid, 118 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: and that eventually led to the book shorting the Grid 119 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: to note it's funny. I actually used to live in Brattleboro, Vermont, 120 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: a couple of miles away from the Vermont Yankee nuclear Plan, 121 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: which I remember tons of debate about it at the time, 122 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: and lots of local activists wanting to shut it down, 123 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: and now it did get shut down. But it's fun, 124 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, I remember this debate very well. Well, can 125 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: we talk a little bit more about that? So you know, 126 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: I mentioned this in the intro, the idea of nuclear 127 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: sort of losing public opinion. How did that happen exactly? 128 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: And how do the alleged downside stack up against the 129 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: opportunities or the upsides of nuclear power as you as 130 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: you learned about them. Well, that is a really difficult 131 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: question that there are many books about, Like there's a 132 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: book called the Rise of Nuclear fear Um. One of 133 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: the things is that people had it mixed in their 134 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: minds with nuclear weapons. What I'm trying to say is 135 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: that there are plenty of states like uh, North Korea 136 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: with nuclear weapons but no nuclear power plants. And there 137 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: are plenty of states like United Arab Emirates with nuclear 138 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: power plants and no nuclear weapons. I mean, they don't 139 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: go together, as like, if you've got one, then you've 140 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: got the other. And the whole idea that someone would 141 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: steal stuff from a nuclear power plant to make a 142 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: weapon is so absurd it just I mean, the things 143 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: that are in nuclear power plants are very big, very radioactive, 144 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: and the plants are well guarded, so I mean you 145 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: would have to drive some kind of a special vehicle. 146 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's not it's not like an 147 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: easy thing to imagine. So I don't like to even 148 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: go into that very much because it's it's it's all 149 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: so theoretical. It's just not reasonable. But my mother was 150 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: very active in in in banned the bomb groups and 151 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: and but you a sent against nuclear but one power. 152 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: But when the bomb actually got banned, I think some 153 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: of those groups just my morphs gone over like, oh well, well, 154 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: let's go after the nuclear plants. Now. It wasn't reason. 155 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: It was just sort of like, let's do the next step. 156 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: We were worried about fallout, and now we have these plants, 157 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: so we'll go after them. And and and the fact 158 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: that they're not releasing anything into the environment, we're not 159 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: gonna worry about that part. They could there's this whole 160 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: word could. They could. They could if you have a 161 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: laborate enough scenario, they could. What do you talk about 162 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 1: that a little bit further? And actually, of course you 163 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: know we're talking about Europe the other night, I think 164 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: it was. I think it was last Thursday, were recording 165 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: this March tent, so I think a week ago. One 166 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: of the scarier headlines that has come out of the 167 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: Russia invasion of Ukraine. All the headlines are are awful, 168 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: but there was the concern about this particular nuclear plant. 169 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: There was a report about a fire, and then everyone 170 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: was debating how terrible could this be? Could this be 171 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: a Fukushima or Chernobyl or something like that, And then 172 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: the people who actually knew what they were talking about said, no, 173 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: that's a completely unrealistic scenario. There's not like that at all. 174 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: But can you give us like the basic reasons, like Okay, 175 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: why isn't a nuclear power plant as sort of major 176 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: security risk if it could catch fire or something like that? 177 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: Like why did the people who seem to understand nuclear 178 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: the most they did not seem particularly worried about that 179 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: risk in that situation. Well, it's a standard kind of 180 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: uh plant. It's a light water reactor. It's not like 181 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: the Chernobyl plants. The Chernobyl plants, every every nuclear plant 182 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: has to have a way to slow down the neutrons, 183 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: and that's called the moderator, and in American plants that's 184 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: that's water, and in the Russian plant it was graphied. 185 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: So when the Russian plant began overheating, the graphite began burning. 186 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: Uh it was just an incredible mess. That's your noble one. 187 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: But the ones that are operating now in Russia, they're 188 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: practically like the American plants there, they're like pressurized water reactors. 189 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: There's uh three levels of water safety between them and 190 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: uh any released to the environment. What I'm trying to 191 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: say is you have the pressurized water that surrounds the 192 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: reactor core. Then that water goes into loops within a 193 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: steam generator. That steam generator makes steam which turns the turbine. 194 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: But it and then it doesn't it is it isn't 195 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: the same water that went through the reactor core. It's, 196 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, incredibly pure water. Very no 197 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: expense is spare to make that water incredibly pure, and 198 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: the reason is that you don't want it to pass 199 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: sitting things on these high speed turbans. And then as 200 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: it comes out of the turbans, it's cooled by a 201 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: tertiary loop, which actually is a water that goes through 202 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: a cooling tower or something which is out in the environment, 203 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: but at that point it's like three three steps away 204 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: from from the reactor. So uh, people kept imagining all 205 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: these scenarios which which are unreasonable of the reactor uh 206 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: having some huge problem that causes this vast release, which 207 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: actually did happen at Chernobyl, but that was because it 208 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: was a completely different plant. Another thing I have to 209 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: say is Chernobyl did not have a containment structure around it, 210 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: so anything that was released was immediately released. These plants 211 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: have containment structures around the reactor steam generator, uh area 212 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: that can be hit by like missiles. I mean really 213 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: they run. Uh they they're so strong that can be 214 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: hit by trains, uh, missiles. I don't know how big 215 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: a missile I suppose if it was, but but you 216 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: know that they're they're testing in the Midwestern ones are 217 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: tested with U utility poles flung against them as if 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: there was a tornado. I mean, so the whole idea 219 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: that these things are just on the verge or something 220 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: horrible happening is really not reasonable. And it is. But 221 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,679 Speaker 1: as I say, I think that the people were like, oh, 222 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: we banned the bomb, let's ban the other nuclear stuff. 223 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: It's all horrible aside from safety, Were there any other 224 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: constraints or are there any other constraints on building out 225 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: nuclear capacity, because I mean, if there's one thing I 226 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: learned from some city, it's that nuclear power plants are 227 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: extremely expensive compared to all other forms of power. But 228 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: obviously that's that might be out of date. But you know, 229 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: are there financial constraints or policy constraints that impact investment 230 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: in nuclear power? Well, there are finding at this point 231 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: nuclear plants are more expensive and slower to build than 232 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: other types of plants, and they're usually compared with um 233 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: combined psycho plants of natural gas plants because very few 234 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: people are building coal plants anymore, except, of course, in 235 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: many places in the world, but not in America. Uh, 236 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: people are building coal plants in China and in India, 237 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: but they're not building them in America. So we compare 238 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: our nuclear plants to natural gas plants, and they're much 239 00:14:54,960 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: more expensive. However, nuclear fuel tends to be a lot 240 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: less expensive and a lot more reliable than the fuel 241 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: for the natural gas plants. And people do a comparison 242 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: with a wind turbine. Whatever wind turbines aren't even supposed 243 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: to last more than twenty five years, and nuclear plants 244 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: can last sixty years, uh, eighty years, whatever, how often 245 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: do you have to build? It becomes a question with 246 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: with with many of the types of plants. So can 247 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: you actually do the math a little bit more for us, 248 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: like what are the you know a region is thinking 249 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: about investing a like how much how long did would 250 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: it take to build a nuclear plant versus a uh 251 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: something that's powered more by natural gas? And another important 252 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: thing you talk about in your book is that a 253 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: nuclear plant holds the fuel on site, whereas natural gas 254 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: is real time. It doesn't store the gas on site, 255 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: It needs it just in time, and so if there's 256 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: any sort of pipeline disruption, the natural gas plant is useless. 257 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: But talk about the upfront costs of the two, and 258 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: then like how it plays is out over time in 259 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: your views such that the nuclear is the better investment. Well, 260 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: you know this isn't my major area of expertise about 261 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: investing in nuclear I'm sorry to say that. I will 262 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: say that nuclear plants have had a tendency to be 263 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: um estimated at five billion and come in at ten billion. 264 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: But and meanwhile, natural gas plants are estimated at five 265 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: hundred thousand and come in and a million and a 266 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: half or something. No, not a million and a half. 267 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: Excuse me, five d a billion and a half. Really 268 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 1: I would so. Um. But the thing is that with 269 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: the natural gas plant, you have to have a fuel 270 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: supplied all the time. It just keeps coming in over 271 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: the pipeline and sometimes, uh, that's okay, and sometimes it's 272 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: not okay. Like right in the winter in the Northeast, 273 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: we actually are dependent on l G deliveries just like 274 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: we were Singapore or something to get enough natural gas 275 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: into all pipelines for winter use, and nuclear stores about 276 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: eighteen months of fuel on site. So uh, some disruption 277 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: in the price of fuel or anything like that, you've 278 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: got a lot of time to try and figure out 279 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: what to do about it. Well, with natural gas, they 280 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: say it's now X price. You're paying it. That's it. 281 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 1: You're either paying it and refusing to accept it, whichever 282 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: is that. The main difference that you see between nuclear 283 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: power and renewables, it's the I guess, the reliability of 284 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: power generation and the idea that you can build up 285 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: you know, eighteen months of capacity as you put it, 286 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: and not really have to worry about it, versus if 287 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: you have something like wind or solar, it's much more unpredictable. 288 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's very important. Now. One of the things is, uh, 289 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: grid reliability is dismissed by people who are in favor 290 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: of you know, like, oh, we'll get to a hundred 291 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: percent renewables, we'll figure out how to make them reliable. 292 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: It won't take that much. Uh. But when you get 293 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: right down to it, what most people wanted and grid 294 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: is reliability. They want the lights to go on when 295 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: they turn on the lights. They want the water treatment 296 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: plan to keep operating. They want, uh, you know, all 297 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: the things that the grid gives us uh to keep happening. 298 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: And if they're interrupted a lot, this is very very bad. 299 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: And and so what happens is that nuclear plants, um 300 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: let me give you an example. The thing is, it's 301 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: very hard to talk about natural gas in terms of 302 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: size because it's a gas. Nobody thinks of it in 303 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 1: terms of size. So what I'm gonna do is I'm 304 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: going to pair Vermont Yankee nuclear plant with Merrimac Station, 305 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: which is not far away. It's down in New Hampshire. 306 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: Meyri Max stations, a coal plant is four hundred megawatts, 307 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: and Vermont Yankee was a nuclear plant at six hundred megawats. 308 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: So Vermont Yankee would have a semi pull up every 309 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: eighteen months with a new load of fuel. Okay, one semi, 310 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: maybe they took two sometimes I don't know, with a 311 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: new load of fuel. I've often thought that since there 312 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 1: were several hundred people working at the plant, they probably 313 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: had more deliveries of paper products of various kinds, from 314 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: from from than than fuel. Meanwhile, over at Merrimac station, 315 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: you have four hundred megawatts. I did the calculation several 316 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: times over to try and figure it out. Uh. They 317 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: told me at the station that it was forty one 318 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: ton ray Hopper cars of cold per day. I went 319 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: through a whole calculation on the probable heat rate and 320 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: came up with thirty nine Hopper cars per day. So 321 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: you see, the thing is they they are taking delivery 322 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: of a lot of coal every day to run that station. 323 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: And of course, when you're delivering a lot of things 324 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: that it's uh, it's can be interrupted. Now, the thing 325 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: that I wanted to say is that if you look 326 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: at a four hundred megawatt UH natural gas plant, it 327 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 1: is burning not forty cars of coal, because the H 328 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: two and the natural gas also burns. Say it's burning 329 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: twenty cars of coal a day. It isn't coal, it's carbon, 330 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: you see. But at least you can have a visual. 331 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: Then you can have a visual that the natural gas 332 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: plant is getting twenty cold cars full of carbon delivered 333 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: to it every day. You see. We can't have that division. 334 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: Somebody will say, oh, it's got MMC so many million 335 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: cubic feet. I don't. I can't imagine a million cubic 336 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: feet of a gas and what happens, and that's beyond me. 337 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: It's it's much easier to just think if it were coal, 338 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: then how much would this be? How much would you 339 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: see showing up at the plant? And let's look at 340 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: the carbon for a moment. You get these forty coal 341 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: plants going to Merrimack station and then they combine with 342 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,959 Speaker 1: oxygen in the air to make carbon dioxide, which is 343 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: because it's combined, it's heavier than than the coal was. 344 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: So if you had to carry the carbon dioxide away 345 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: in coal cars, you would be using um more than 346 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 1: twice as many coal cars to carry it away. So 347 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: that's something to think about. I keep trying to figure 348 00:21:53,680 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: out how to express because otherwise it's so theoretical. People like, oh, yeah, uh, 349 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: it comes, We've got a million cubic feet. Nobody goes like, 350 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: how much does that way? How much space would it 351 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: take up? It's a gas, right, So I try to 352 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: put it in terms of if it were coal, if 353 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: it were visible, if it had to be delivered and 354 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: taken away in railroad cars, this is what would be like. 355 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: That's a really interesting way to think about it. Let's 356 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: go back to conventional renewables, and the two renewables uh 357 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: that people have in their mind when they hear renewables 358 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: are obviously wind and solar, and they inspire a lot 359 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: of very good feelings. They do not emit carbon when 360 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: the sun is shining or when the wind is blowing. 361 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: Electricity is extremely cheap, and I get perhaps the marginal 362 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: cost of that electricity is essentially free. What is uh? 363 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: And you talk about the but what is like the 364 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: basic flaw? Like, what is the argument against just let's 365 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: keep ramping up wind, Let's keep you know, there's gonna 366 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: be this big new wind firm off of New York, 367 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: there's gonna be some win. Why not just continue to 368 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 1: place uh turbines and panels on every roof and every 369 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 1: UH on every mountain ridge we can find. Okay, let 370 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: me let me talk about why that isn't a reasonable 371 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: way of looking at the First thing is it's just 372 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: a very simple example. Um. People go to a fancy restaurant, say, 373 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: and the restaurant says, we run a hundred percent on 374 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: renewable electricity here. And the people say, oh, this is great. 375 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: We're not only having a great meal at ten at night, 376 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: but we are also on renewable electricity. Well, actually, they 377 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: what the restaurant has done is just hadn't put up 378 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of It may have some some solar panels, 379 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: but it's not running off the solar panels at ten 380 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: at night. What it is doing is this fine renewable 381 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: energy certificates or it is net metering. That is, it 382 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: produces more solar two and it sells it to the 383 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: grid and then it bused fossil from the grid at 384 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: ten at night. And so people get they get misled 385 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: there at this restaurant and it's a hundred renewables and 386 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: they're thinking, well, everybody can do this. If they can 387 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: do it, we should be able to do it. Okay, 388 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: So that's the simple misleading thing. The more formal statement 389 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: would have to be that renewables add to the overall 390 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: system costs of the grid. For one thing, Uh, you 391 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: have to back have something to back them up, now 392 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,959 Speaker 1: you know. I, I really I don't think batteries are 393 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: ever going to do it. But that's a whole another talk. Uh, 394 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: and and and so forth. But whether you decide it's 395 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: batteries or its or it's gas fire plants, or it's 396 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: a pump storage device, okay, something has to be available 397 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: when the um when the renewables are not available, and 398 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: so that means that you have to have redundancy on 399 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: the grid. And that redundancy doesn't go into the cost 400 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: of when the wind turbine is actually making wind, it 401 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: goes into the sort of the overhead cost of the 402 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: whole grid. So what happens is that people don't understand that. 403 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: They say, well, the wind turbines are really cheap, rights, 404 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: and as long as you've got an equal amount of 405 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: installed capacity that you can actually call on, okay, whether 406 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 1: it's fossil, whether it's whether it's nuclear, whether it's whether 407 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: it's a pump storage whether it's a battery, you don't 408 00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: have a reliable grid and and so people don't realize that. 409 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: For example, if if the grid was all what I 410 00:25:54,640 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: would call traditional plants nuclear, coal, gas, hydro, then a 411 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: grid will usually try to have reserve capacity of I 412 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: don't know twenty So for example, if the highest amount 413 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: of uh killer Watta killer Watson being used at a 414 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: time is something, then the grid will have installed capacity 415 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: of that amount plus. So our grid, for example in 416 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: New England, it runs about on a nice day, not 417 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: a fierce day, not a very cold day, very hot day, 418 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:41,400 Speaker 1: it's running around fourteen giggle watson peak okay or fifteen 419 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: well then, but on a very cold day it will 420 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: run twenty gig wats. So we have to have twenty 421 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: three giga watson installed capacity, so that if it's a 422 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: very cold day or a very hot day and it's 423 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: running twenty gigawatson, some of the planets go offline, then 424 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: we still have that three gigga wats to make up 425 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: for it, you know, So we're all set. But if 426 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: if those twenty gigawats were wind and solar, we'd have 427 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: to have another twenty gigawatts of something that we can 428 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: call on when the wind and solar aren't available, and 429 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: so that's an immense cost, the redundancy cost. I have, 430 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: I guess a hypothetical question, um, but it's related to 431 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: policy and the decision about who chooses the actual mix 432 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: of energy in our world. So you know, let's say 433 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: tomorrow everyone woke up and looked at their Bloomberg terminal 434 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: and saw that, you know, the oil price was at 435 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: two hundred dollars per barrel or three dollars per barrel, 436 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: and gas prices were still spiking, and everyone decided, okay, 437 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: we wanna change up our energy mix. We want to 438 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 1: do more nuclear for instance. How does that How would 439 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: that public sentiment actually feed through into additional investment into 440 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: nuclear power? Because it feels like, you know, I just 441 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: moved back to New York and I've signed up with Contetisent, 442 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: Like it certainly feels like I don't have much of 443 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,239 Speaker 1: a choice in what type of energy is delivered to me, 444 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: um and who provides it. So I'm just curious, like 445 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: what actually changes if the world starts accepting nuclear power. 446 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: Who actually makes the decision saying okay, we're going to 447 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: build a power plant here or we're going to add 448 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 1: capacity to existing power plants. Okay, Now, if you are 449 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: in an area that is not run by auctions, if 450 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: you're in a traditional vertically integrated area, the state, with 451 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: permission from for for whatever issues might be coming up, 452 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: the state decides on its resource mix, and it writes 453 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: a something called an integrated Resource Plan, which it presents 454 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: towards Public Utilities Commission, and then UH, if the public 455 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: utility says, yes, this is the right thing to do, 456 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: then things are put in place to do the sighting, 457 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: to do the permits UH to to raise the money 458 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: and so forth and so on. Now, the thing is 459 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: that in the auction areas, which I call r t 460 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: O areas, which is Regional Transmission Organization UH. And New 461 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: York is very interesting because it's a state and r 462 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: t O. So, but let's look at New England instead, 463 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: because New England is um a mixture of many states 464 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: run by an r t O UH and and and 465 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: so forth. So every state supposedly, if you ask the 466 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: head of our r T oh, what about the resource mix? 467 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: He would say, the states decide on the resource mix. 468 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: We don't have any particular ability to decide on the 469 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: resource mix. But what it boils down to is in 470 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: the r t O, it's only the plants that have 471 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: um low prices uh for the next killer water, our 472 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: low marginal costs and and and and can't not very 473 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 1: high capital costs that actually can get built in an 474 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: r t O system. So even if the state puts 475 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: together an integrated resource plan that says we will we 476 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: are going to build a nuclear plant here, the nuclear 477 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: plant builders will say, are you kidding me? Were the 478 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: way the auctions are set up, will never make a 479 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: living at this and and and so one of the 480 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: problems is that and and and this is why I 481 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: named my book Sharing the Grid. It was in homage 482 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: to the Big Short because in the Big Short uh, 483 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: the mortgages which were not particularly good mortgages, liars mortgages, right, 484 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: it didn't matter. They still made money. So the value 485 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: of the mortgage really didn't didn't affect things. And sure enough, 486 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: pretty soon because you had all these complicated uh dead 487 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: obligations and collateralized this and collateral But what I'm trying 488 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: to say is when you got through all that complexity, 489 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: then you know the value of the mortgage, it didn't matter. 490 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: And so in the rt O areas, the value of 491 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: the power to the grid doesn't matter as much as 492 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: long as it meets certain criteria for the options. So 493 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: it's very, very similar to the situation. As a matter 494 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: of fact, a power plant, a renewable plant, is the 495 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: is most likely to actually make money on the grid 496 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: because it gets uh texts, it gets subsidies and tax credits, 497 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to rely on the auctions. As 498 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, some of those plants bid in 499 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: saying we'll pay you to take our power. This was 500 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: where that was a really striking aspect of your book, 501 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: that there are times in which the wind is you know, 502 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: the wind is blowing so much of the Sunday is 503 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: shining that actually, uh, you know, the the renewable generators 504 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: can actually bid to get their electricity used that negative 505 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: prices because of the subsidies or the sale of credits. 506 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: And in fact, your book in general talks about just 507 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 1: how insanely complicated electricity auctions are and it's sort of 508 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 1: mind boggling. But you're like, walk through it all, but 509 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: can you just give the sort of simple reason why 510 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: in a sort of auction based electricity system, the opposite 511 00:32:54,840 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: of vertically vertically integrated UM nuclear, despite its advantages and reliability, 512 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: is not economical for someone to invest in build it well. 513 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: One of the things is that the nuclear plant is 514 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: going to have to compete with plants on the auctions 515 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: that will be UM bidding in it, like negative one, 516 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: Sentich and so forth. So the overall price on the 517 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: auction will be lowered by those plants, sometimes even all 518 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 1: the way to negative And now one of the reasons 519 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: that the the nuclear plant is also in trouble in 520 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: this auction system is that in the auction system tends 521 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: to favor renewables, and that means that if the sun 522 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: is shining, they may want the nuclear plant to like 523 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: go offline and make room for the solar. And nuclear 524 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: plants are are wonderful. They are not equally flexible. Now 525 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: you might say, oh see, there's a disadvantage to them, 526 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: but I'm telling you. Let's say you're taking a car 527 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: trip and you see a semi. The semi is carrying 528 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: a lot of goods and it is carrying it. You know, 529 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: it is efficient. There's one or two drivers and it's 530 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 1: carrying all these goods. Is it flexible? Can it pass? You? 531 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: Can it go up a hill quickly? Can it stop 532 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: on a dime? No, It's basically designed to be very 533 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: efficient at carrying a load forward and so forth. That's 534 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 1: what the nuclear plants are designed for. And so UM, 535 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: if they're being forced off the grid because the wind 536 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: is blowing or because the the it's very very hard 537 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: upon them, and they they will tend to have shorter 538 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: life expectancies because of the changes that they're forced to do. 539 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: I have another basic question, given that I haven't read 540 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 1: the book, but why why you were and I planned 541 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,319 Speaker 1: to after this conversation, But why was everything set up 542 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 1: in this way? Like why was the system created in 543 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: which renewable seemed to benefit from the way auctions are 544 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: actually conducted, UM versus something that would incentivize nuclear. Well, 545 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: let's look back to why the whole argo system happened. 546 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: But the thing was that in the vertically integrated systems. Uh. 547 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: The idea was that if a company invested in a 548 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 1: power plant, it would get a rate of return on 549 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: that investment from the people to whom it's sold the power. 550 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: And so that company was a widow as an orphan stock, 551 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't going to have a huge problem. Uh. It 552 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: was going to get as rate of return now. Um. 553 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: When when people looked at this, it was clear to 554 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: some people and this was just an incentive to gold 555 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: plate the grid. The more the company could invest, the 556 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: more it got paid, and didn't have a particular interest 557 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: in in saving money. So people said, what we have 558 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: to do is get some kind of market force in 559 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: here to get that company to understand that saving money 560 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: is important. And uh so the R T O system, 561 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: the auctions were supposed to do that, but they didn't. 562 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: And why didn't they is a very elaborate uh story 563 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: having to do with the uh you know, the shell 564 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: gas revolution, Uh, huge overruns on nuclear plants, the romance, 565 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: if you pardon me saying so the romance if we 566 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: can get everything we need from the sun and the wind. Uh, 567 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: it's kind of bucolic, you know, ideal and uh and 568 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: and some of the people were I think it was 569 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: Armory Armor Levins who the quote was that if there 570 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: was a clean source of power that was readily available, 571 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: they would destroy things with it. You know. The idea 572 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: is that lots of energy isn't good. The fact that 573 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: there's limited energy from renewables that will keep humankind on 574 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: the straight and narrow. So this is important to talk 575 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: about some of the challenges of the vertically integrated price model, 576 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: where if your return is cost plus x, then that 577 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: gives you an incentive to just increase the costs, and 578 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: so there are obvious impulses to find some sort of 579 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: market mechanism to avoid that. You know, one of the 580 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: things that I remember, and from about a decade ago, 581 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: is the pickings plan and uh Tibu and pick ups 582 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: of course, a well known oil and gas man who 583 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: also was very into wind power. And something that you 584 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: explain a lot is uh the idea of the renewable 585 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: industries wants more natural gas, and they complement each other 586 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: very well, and or in theory they do. Can you 587 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: explain that a little bit further, how renewables and natural 588 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: gas sort of dovetail with each other from an industrial 589 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: business perspective? Oh? Yes, absolutely. One of the things is 590 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: that renewables go on and off when they want to, 591 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: and they need something that can that can ramp up 592 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: and down quickly to to to even out the reliability 593 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: of the grid. Now there are two things that can 594 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,919 Speaker 1: ramp up quickly to even out the reliability of the grid. 595 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: Those two things are natural gas and hydro um coal 596 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 1: plants and nuclear plants can actually load follow. I mean 597 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: that is, they can go up in the middle of 598 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: the day and come down at the end of the day. 599 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: What they can't do is take care of the spikiness 600 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: of the wind is up, the windows down of the 601 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: the sun is shining. Whoop. So the front went by, 602 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: a clouds came by, and in five minutes, five minutes 603 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: has gone from less of solar to like, why is 604 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 1: it so gloomy out there? Uh and and so natural 605 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: gas is the partner for this. It's the partner that 606 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 1: can that can fill in those gaps. Now, hydro could 607 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: fill in those gaps too. But let's face it, people 608 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: are taking out more damns than they're putting in, At 609 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: least in my area. I can't imagine anywhere in the 610 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 1: country someone would say we're going to build another damn 611 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 1: the size of a Grand Cooley on this river. Uh 612 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: and and and not meet an absolute storm of opposition. 613 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: And in all honest state, back in the day, that 614 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: was actually a the Ara clubse slogan Adams not dams. Huh. So, 615 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: with everything that's going on in the world, what's your 616 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: gut instinct on whether or not we are going to 617 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: see a ramping up of investment in nuclear power and 618 00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: of rethink on the desirability of nuclear versus something like 619 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: solar or wind. I think the chances are very good 620 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: for that, but I'm not sure that they're good enough 621 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 1: in this country. What I mean by that is in 622 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: other countries, uh, they will look at the fact that 623 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 1: um France doesn't have a single Uh, I don't it 624 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: might have one, I don't know, a natural gas fire plant. 625 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: It's a nuclear you know. And uh and and so 626 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: France isn't particularly concerned with what is happening in the Ukraine, 627 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: except as a European nature nation that doesn't want to 628 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: see that amount of suffering. But in terms of like, 629 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: well they turn off our power, they're not. They're not 630 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 1: worried about that. So other people are going to begin 631 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: to take energy security eighteen months on site. You can't 632 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: be turned off by by somebody at the drop of 633 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: a hat just because he's decided to start a war. 634 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 1: I think that people are going to take it more seriously. 635 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 1: And now people are already taking it seriously. In other 636 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: parts of the world, nuclear plant builds have been going 637 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: on in the Middle East and have been going on 638 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: in in in China, but in America we we haven't 639 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: done that. We just we have just a minute or 640 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: two left before we have to wrap. But let's say, 641 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: you know, public opinion were to change on nuclear Let's 642 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,960 Speaker 1: say just in the US, where what would the policy 643 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: change have to be to make it happen. Would it 644 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,160 Speaker 1: be something at the federal government, would be at the 645 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: state level, like obviously, as you explain, the current R 646 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: T O auction model does not augur well for nuclear 647 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,839 Speaker 1: what would have to change? And then, real quickly, storage 648 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: is the other big thing, and we haven't touched on it, 649 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: but people talk about, well, no, no one wants the 650 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: storage in their backyard, you know, you uh in Vermont 651 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: probably people don't want the nuclear stored, you know, in 652 00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: in the you know, the Rolling Green Hills or under 653 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: the Ganic apple farm. So just real quickly, can you 654 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: touch on a where the policy impulse would have to 655 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: change and how to deal with the fact that it's 656 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: still extremely costly and by and large not desirable to 657 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:18,359 Speaker 1: live near nuclear storage. Okay, basically, um, in terms of 658 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: policy changes, I think that we have to begin looking 659 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: at systems costs, because if you look at it inexpensive 660 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: wind turbine, and you don't look at the fact that 661 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 1: a natural gas plant work to pay whatever is an 662 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: offer for the natural gas has to be available to 663 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: back it up, then you think that wind turban is 664 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: pretty cheap. But if you look at the system cost 665 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:46,040 Speaker 1: you will realize that no, it isn't um And then 666 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,760 Speaker 1: in terms of a storage, oh, I don't know, I 667 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 1: I get, I get very uh concerned with people who 668 00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: are so concerned with storage. I mean, the material is 669 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: being stored is a ceramic, It's not a google like 670 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 1: in in the Simpsons' curam And you know it's a 671 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: dangerous substance. Okay, well fine, you know as somebody says, well, 672 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: you know there's enough whatever I've had nuclear plan to 673 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: kill everybody in the state, and I'm saying, yeah, you know, 674 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: there's enough stuff under my kitchen sink to kill everybody 675 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: in the family. The question is, and what I mean 676 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: is you know, like uh, household household cleaners. But the 677 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 1: thing is not is there enough? But isn't well contained? 678 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: Isn't something likely to leak? And frankly, ceramics is the 679 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: least likely to leak. Well, this is a huge, sprawling, 680 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: fascinating topic. It's already given me like ideas for three 681 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: or four new episodes that we have to follow on. 682 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: I definitely suggest people check out your book, Shorting the Grid. 683 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming out odd lots. Thank you, Tracy. 684 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,600 Speaker 1: I found that extremely interesting. I do think like it 685 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: this core thing. Meredith used the word bucolic when describing 686 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: the allure of solar and wind, and I thought that 687 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: was very apt. You could see the appeal. But when 688 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: you think about the redundancy that has to be built 689 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:23,440 Speaker 1: the law, you know, the difficulty of batteries and so forth, Uh, 690 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 1: you can see why it's not It's certainly not a 691 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: silver bullet. Yeah, you mentioned you calic. I was thinking about, 692 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: like all the responsibility that maybe pop culture has to pare, 693 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: you know. Meredith mentioned the Simpsons, and I was also 694 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: thinking about Back to the Future and like the doctor 695 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: stealing a bunch of platonium and everyone getting it in 696 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: their heads in the nineteen eighties, that you know, this 697 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,279 Speaker 1: is something that can be stolen and terrorists use it 698 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Um, but it is interesting. I 699 00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 1: mean a I need to read that other book. That 700 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 1: Meredith mentioned as well about how nuclear lost the public 701 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: policy to date. But it's just and be fascinating to 702 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: see whether or not the turnaround actually happens given current events, 703 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: and then be if there is a turnaround in public sentiment, 704 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: how feasible that actually is given the current structure to implement. Yeah, 705 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot we have to do. So we have 706 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 1: to have an episode with someone who is very pro 707 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: wind and solar and believes it really is the solution. 708 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: We absolutely have to do a batteries episode because of 709 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: both cars, and then also grid level storage is going 710 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: to be like a huge question to like the further 711 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: ramping up of renewables. There's a lot more to do. 712 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: I think this is going to be like our huge 713 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: theme I think for two and there's like so many 714 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: different energy questions, uh coming through. But I thought it 715 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: was very helpful and uh, people really should check out 716 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,240 Speaker 1: the book. Yeah, alright, well more to come on this subject, 717 00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,919 Speaker 1: but in the meantime, shall we leave it there? Let's 718 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: leave it there? All right? This has been another episode 719 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can 720 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,480 Speaker 1: follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and I'm Joe wisntal. 721 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 1: You can follow me on two her at The Stalwart. 722 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,600 Speaker 1: Definitely check out our guest Meredith England. She is at 723 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 1: Meredith England. Big thanks to our producers Magnus Hendrickson and 724 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 1: Colin Tipton. Followed the Bloomberg head of podcast Francesca Lead 725 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: at Francesco Today and check out all of our podcasts 726 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:19,720 Speaker 1: in Bloomberg under the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening.