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Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey Happiness Lab listeners. On the last episode, I

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Speaker 1: spoke to best selling author John Green about his mission

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Speaker 1: to get us talking about tuberculosis. TB is a disease

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Speaker 1: we've been able to successfully treat for decades, and yet

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Speaker 1: millions of people still die because of it, and that's

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Speaker 1: partly because we won't hand over the relatively small amounts

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Speaker 1: of money needed to pay for treatment. John thinks that's

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Speaker 1: a scandal, and if you agree, we've launched an appeal

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Speaker 1: to help send any cash you can spare to give

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Speaker 1: directly dot org slash TB. That's GiveDirectly dot org slash TB.

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Speaker 1: John's latest book, Everything Is Tuberculosis, is all about this

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Speaker 1: awful disease that's shaped our world. But that disease won't

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Speaker 1: go away until we put in some effort to fight

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Speaker 1: it properly. John asked me to help him out at

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Speaker 1: a launch event for the book in New York, and

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Speaker 1: that's what you're about to hear. The evening started with

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Speaker 1: John giving a short reading from Everything Is Tuberculosis that

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Speaker 1: explains how a visit to a clinic in West Africa

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Speaker 1: and a meeting with a special young person sparked his

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Speaker 1: interest in Tackling TV special thanks to Symphony Space for

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Speaker 1: allowing us to share this episode with you.

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Speaker 2: Hildy, Hello, whoa Hi. Thank you so much, Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much. It's so great to be here with you today.

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Speaker 2: It's such a gift to me that to be here

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Speaker 2: in New York City at Symphony Space for the official

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Speaker 2: pub date the launch of the book Everything is Tuberculosis.

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Speaker 2: So this is a little bit of my book from

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Speaker 2: when I first visited Lacat Tuberculosis Hospital in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: when I didn't even know to put it, frankly, that

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Speaker 2: tuberculosis was still a thing. When we arrived at Laka,

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Speaker 2: we were immediately greeted by a child reduced himself as Henry.

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Speaker 2: That's my son's name, I told him, and he smiled.

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Speaker 2: Most Sierra Leonians are multilingual, but Henry spoke particularly good English,

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Speaker 2: especially for a kid his age, which made it possible

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Speaker 2: for us to have a conversation that went beyond my

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Speaker 2: few halting phrases of CREO. I asked how he was doing,

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Speaker 2: and he said, I am encouraged, sir, I am happy.

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Speaker 2: He loved that word encouraged, and who wouldn't. It's like

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Speaker 2: courage is something we rouse ourselves and others into. My son,

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Speaker 2: Henry was nine then, and this Henry looked about the

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Speaker 2: same age, a small boy with spindly legs and a

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Speaker 2: big goofy smile. He wore shorts and an oversized rugby

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Speaker 2: shirt that reached nearly to his knees. Henry took hold

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Speaker 2: of my t shirt and began walking me around the hospital.

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Speaker 2: He showed me the lab where a technician was looking

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Speaker 2: through a microscope. Henry looked through the microscope and then

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Speaker 2: asked me to as the lab tech, a young woman

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Speaker 2: from Freetown, explained that this sample can take tuberculosis, even

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Speaker 2: though the patient had been treated for several months with

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Speaker 2: standard therapy. The lab tech began to tell me about

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Speaker 2: this standard therapy, but Henry was pulling on my shirt again.

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Speaker 2: He walked me through the wards, a complex of poorly

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Speaker 2: ventilated buildings that contained hospital rooms with barred windows, thin mattresses,

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Speaker 2: and no toilets. There was no electricity in the wards

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Speaker 2: and no consistent running water. To me, the rooms resembled

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Speaker 2: prison cells. Before it was a TV hospital. LACA was

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Speaker 2: a leprosy isolation facility, and it felt like one inside

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Speaker 2: each room, one or two patients lay on cots, generally

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Speaker 2: on their side or back. A few sat on the

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Speaker 2: edges of their beds, leaning forward. And all these men

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Speaker 2: the women were in a separate ward, were thin. Some

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Speaker 2: were so emaciated that their skins seemed wrapped tightly around bone.

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Speaker 2: As we walked down a hallway between buildings, Henry and

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Speaker 2: I watched a young man drink water from a plastic

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Speaker 2: bottle and then immediately vomit a mix of blood and bile.

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Speaker 2: I instinctively turned away, but Henry continued to stare at

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Speaker 2: the man. I figured Henry with someone's kid, a doctor maybe,

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Speaker 2: or a nurse or one of the cooking or cleaning staff.

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Speaker 2: Everyone seemed to know him, and everyone stopped their work

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Speaker 2: to say hello and rub his head or squeeze his hand.

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Speaker 2: I was immediately charmed by Henry. He had some of

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Speaker 2: the same mannerisms of my son, the same paradoxical mixture

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Speaker 2: of shyness and enthusiastic desire for connection. Henry eventually brought

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Speaker 2: me back to the group of doctors and nurses who

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Speaker 2: were meeting in a small room near the entrance to

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Speaker 2: the hospital, and then one of the nurses lovingly and

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Speaker 2: laughingly shewed him away. Who is that kid, I asked, Henry,

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Speaker 2: answered a nurse, The sweetest boy. He's one of the

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Speaker 2: patients we're worried about, said a physician who went by

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Speaker 2: Doctor Michael. He's a patient, I asked. Yes, he's such

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Speaker 2: a cute little kid, I said, I hope he's going

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Speaker 2: to be okay. Doctor Michael explained to me that Henry

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Speaker 2: wasn't a little boy. He was sixteen. He was only

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Speaker 2: so small because he'd grown up malnourished and then the

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Speaker 2: TV had further emaciated his body. He seems to be

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Speaker 2: doing okay, I said, lots of energy. He walked me

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Speaker 2: all around the hospital. This is because the antibiotics are working,

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Speaker 2: doctor Michael explained. But we know they are not working

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Speaker 2: well enough. We are almost certain they will fail, and

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Speaker 2: that is a big problem. He shrugged, tight lipped. There

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Speaker 2: was a lot I didn't understand. Thank you, Thank you

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Speaker 2: so much. So it is now my honor to introduce

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Speaker 2: my conversation partner for this evening. I'm so excited I

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Speaker 2: can barely contain my excitement that doctor Lorri Santos is here.

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Speaker 2: I mean, doctor Lori Santos is a Yale professor and

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Speaker 2: the host of one of my favorite podcasts, The Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 2: where you can learn how to be Happy, which like,

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Speaker 2: so everybody, please welcome Laurie.

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Speaker 3: I think the one thing John didn't mention is that

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Speaker 3: I'm also a huge John Green fan.

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Speaker 2: Oh I want to hear that.

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Speaker 3: Fighter sitting up here, like try to try to hold

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Speaker 3: it together.

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Speaker 4: So John, because I'm a fan.

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Speaker 3: When I got this invite to come have this conversation

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Speaker 3: with you, like my head did a little spinny thing,

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Speaker 3: like the sort of head explosion EMODEI was like all

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Speaker 3: over my kitchen and I was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 3: I get to talk John Green about his new book.

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Speaker 3: What's the new book about an organizer like tuberculosis? And

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Speaker 3: I was like, okay, cool, cool. I trust John Green

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Speaker 3: with my attention span for anything. I'm gonna, you know,

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Speaker 3: go with this, And I'm so happy I did, because,

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Speaker 3: as usual, you put your trust in John Green and

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Speaker 3: he tells you an amazing story that you didn't know

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Speaker 3: that you needed to know already. And for those of

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Speaker 3: you who haven't read the book yet, you're in for

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Speaker 3: a treat because you, like me now are going to

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Speaker 3: be a complete TV information Stan.

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Speaker 2: You'd love to hear that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 3: Not going to like do any spoilers, but like tuberculosi

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Speaker 3: is big, like pre Victorian TikTok beauty trend before TikTok,

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Speaker 3: like tuberculosis the cause of so many things historically and

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Speaker 3: so on, like as usual, tuberculosis for John Green has

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Speaker 3: become not a disease but a story, a story that

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Speaker 3: shaped literature and beauty, beauty and public health policy. And

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Speaker 3: I think for me here even happiness and some of

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Speaker 3: the science of happiness that we're going to get to

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Speaker 3: talk about. But to start, I'm just curious what made

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Speaker 3: you want to tell this particular story. Now you know,

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Speaker 3: we just met Henry, but beyond Henry, like why tuberculosis now?

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Speaker 2: Well, to me, tuberculosis is the exemplary disease of injustice.

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Speaker 2: It is a disease that only exists because we allow

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Speaker 2: it to exist. It follows the paths of injustice and

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Speaker 2: inequity that we blaze for it. Overwhelmingly, the people who

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Speaker 2: will get tuberculosis are the people who are most oppressed,

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Speaker 2: most marginalized, most left out by the systems that we've built,

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Speaker 2: whether that's transportation systems or healthcare delivery systems, and so

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Speaker 2: it's not just a disease, although it is a biomedical

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Speaker 2: phenomenon obviously, like it's a bacterial infection. There are biomedical

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Speaker 2: realities about tuberculosis, but it is also a social phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: How we imagine and have imagined that disease throughout history

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Speaker 2: matters so much because it doesn't just shape how people

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Speaker 2: live and die of tuberculosis, it also shapes who lives

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Speaker 2: and dies of it.

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Speaker 3: And so something I really found stragging it in your book,

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Speaker 3: And I'm kind of embarrassed to admit before I read

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Speaker 3: the book, I kind of feel like TV was.

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Speaker 2: This disease of the past totally.

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Speaker 3: And the book reminds you, of course that this is

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Speaker 3: ongoing struggle for millions of people. Or remind me of

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Speaker 3: the Flockner quote like the past is not dead, the

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Speaker 3: past not even in the past, Like TV not dead,

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Speaker 3: also not in the past. Give me a sense of

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Speaker 3: the scope of TV today and why it's a plate

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Speaker 3: that we need to be paying attention to now.

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Speaker 2: Well, the scope of TB today is very different from

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Speaker 2: the scope of TB six weeks ago, unfortunately, and so

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Speaker 2: last year about ten million people got sick with tuberculosis.

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Speaker 2: About one point twenty five million died. The most recent

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Speaker 2: estimates are that with the defunding of USAID, we can

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Speaker 2: probably expect that to go up by about thirty percent,

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Speaker 2: which is hundreds of thousands of human lives. Stephanie Nolan

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Speaker 2: reported in The New York Times last week that hundreds

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Speaker 2: of thousands of people have seen their treatment interrupted. This

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Speaker 2: is a catastrophe on an individual level because it means

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Speaker 2: those people are very likely to die. Most of those

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Speaker 2: people will die if they aren't promptly put back on treatment.

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Speaker 2: And even if they are promptly put back on treatment,

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Speaker 2: they're very likely to develop drug resistant tuberculosis because even

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Speaker 2: a brief period without access to treatment can lead to

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Speaker 2: drug resistance. And so that's a catastrophe on an individual level.

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Speaker 2: It's also a societal catastrophe because it means that there

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Speaker 2: will be more complicated forms of drug resistant tuberculosis circulating

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Speaker 2: in communities, potentially, you know, most terrifyingly, leading to forms

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Speaker 2: of tuberculosis that we simply have no tools to treat

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Speaker 2: or cure, which is a threat to the entire world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, of course, tuberculosis doesn't have a moral compass.

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Speaker 2: It also doesn't have a geographical compass. It doesn't know

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Speaker 2: about political borders. It will always strike the most vulnerable

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Speaker 2: among us. But it isn't limited to impoverished communities. We

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Speaker 2: have tuberculosis here in New York City. We have tuberculosis

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Speaker 2: in the United States and this so that's the size

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Speaker 2: of the problem. We're going to lose at least one

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Speaker 2: point twenty five million people, probably more to tuberculosis this year.

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Speaker 2: And all of those deaths, I want to be clear,

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Speaker 2: are needless. When I asked doctor kJ Sung how many

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Speaker 2: people should be dying of TB if everybody had access

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Speaker 2: to healthcare, he seemed very confused, and then after a

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Speaker 2: moment he said, well, none, And that really struck me

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Speaker 2: that all of those deaths are optional.

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Speaker 3: There's so many sucky cygings about TB. But one thing

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Speaker 3: that the book describes in such a poignant way is

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Speaker 3: that people don't just suffer from the disease. They suffer

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Speaker 3: from the culture and the stigma around the disease. And

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Speaker 3: sometimes they're not suffering from the microbes. They're suffering from

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Speaker 3: our crappy human minds and the way we think about disease,

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Speaker 3: and so explain why this part of the disease is

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Speaker 3: so painful, and maybe share some parallels with how TB

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Speaker 3: and other kinds of diseases that we think about today

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Speaker 3: are very similar in this regard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, tuberculosis is a highly stigmatized disease. Several

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Speaker 2: TV survivors have told me that surviving the stigma is

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Speaker 2: harder than surviving the disease. People will be abandoned by

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Speaker 2: their families. They're told that they're responsible for their own illness.

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Speaker 2: They're told that they got TB because they were too poor,

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Speaker 2: or they got TB because they drank too much, or

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Speaker 2: they got TB for any number of reasons. The truth

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Speaker 2: is that, of course, illness doesn't know about morality, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: my dad had cancer a couple times when I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid in the nineteen eighties. He had bladder cancer,

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Speaker 2: and I saw some of this up close. That like

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Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, it was still pretty commonly believed

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Speaker 2: that like cancer was caused by like bottling up your emotions,

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Speaker 2: and that became like a literal cancer. That is, it

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Speaker 2: makes a kind of somatic sense in the way that

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Speaker 2: all these stigmatizing ways of thinking do, but of course, like,

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Speaker 2: we know that's not what my dad got bladder cancer.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, he's actually very expressive man, very

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Speaker 2: in touch with his emotions. And even if you weren't,

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Speaker 2: he still didn't deserve to get cancer. There I was

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Speaker 2: engaging in stigma. So it's devastating for people because it's

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Speaker 2: already difficult to live with disease. It already others you

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Speaker 2: it already. You know, you're already told by the social

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Speaker 2: order that you're not a full person. You're already, you know,

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Speaker 2: dehumanized in all kinds of ways when you're ill. And

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Speaker 2: yet this way of imagining the sick as less than

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Speaker 2: fully human, as outside of the regular, you know, group

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Speaker 2: of the social order, it just it doubles the burden

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Speaker 2: of being ill. And so I think we really have

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Speaker 2: to fight it. The problem with stigma is that the

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Speaker 2: best way to fight it is to make it curable, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: think about strep throat. We don't stigmatize strep throat. Nobody

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Speaker 2: says like, oh, you got strep throat, like you must

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Speaker 2: be a terrible person. We don't stigmatize strep throat because

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Speaker 2: it's eminently curable, and that should be the case with

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Speaker 2: tuberculosis and most other diseases of injustice.

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Speaker 3: I think it's so fascinating though, because I feel like,

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Speaker 3: even with strep throat, it's kind of like, well you

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Speaker 3: went out to that restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like we always want to have a

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Speaker 2: reason why people got sick. Yes, there's this wonderful young

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Speaker 2: woman named Casey Aldman who died of cancer a few

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Speaker 2: years ago, and she told me once that stigma is

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Speaker 2: a way of saying, you deserved for this to happen,

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Speaker 2: and I don't deserve for it to happen. And so

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Speaker 2: for me not to have to worry about this happening

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Speaker 2: to me, I have to have a reason why this

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Speaker 2: happened to you. And that's what stigma is ultimately.

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Speaker 3: But it's so messed up that we make up this reason.

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Speaker 3: I mean, in some ways it's kind of good, right.

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Speaker 3: You had this quote in your book that I loved.

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Speaker 3: We like to know why things happen, especially bad things.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Our mind is just searching for explanations, and the way

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Speaker 3: we search for explanations for all kinds of scientific stuff.

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Speaker 3: But in this case, well, like, well, if the explanation

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Speaker 3: is this disease just hits you, indiscriminately, like I'm at

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Speaker 3: risk too.

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Speaker 4: Our brains can't handle that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really overwhelming. And so the other strategy we

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Speaker 2: have for dealing with this, in addition to stigma is romanticization,

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Speaker 2: which sort of seems like the opposite of stigma when

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Speaker 2: you first think about it, because instead of like dehumanizing someone,

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Speaker 2: you're sort of putting them on a pedestal. But it

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Speaker 2: serves the same function of casting someone out of the

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Speaker 2: social order. Like I've experienced this a little bit because

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Speaker 2: I have what the television commercials call moderate to severe

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Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder, and that is my actual diagnosis.

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Speaker 4: It is not actually it's not actually a drug commercial

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Speaker 4: that year.

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Speaker 2: No, No, this is real, man, this is real life.

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Speaker 2: And people both stigmatize OCD. You know, some of the

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Speaker 2: compulsive behaviors especially are highly stigmatized because they're seen as

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Speaker 2: odd or off putting. But they also romanticize OCD that

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Speaker 2: they act like having OCD comes with all these superpowers.

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Speaker 2: It makes you a brilliant detective, like that guy on

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Speaker 2: the television program Monk. And like that's just not my experience,

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Speaker 2: Like I haven't found that it makes me good at

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Speaker 2: anything other than worrying about the very specific and totally

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Speaker 2: irrational thing that I'm consumed with worry about, and it

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Speaker 2: I just I think it's overrated, you know. And so romanticization,

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Speaker 2: which happened a lot in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries

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Speaker 2: as a way of making sense of this disease, as

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Speaker 2: a way of making understanding why a bad thing was happening,

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Speaker 2: was just another strategy for saying, you deserve for this

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Speaker 2: to happen, and I don't like. One of my favorite

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Speaker 2: examples of this is John Keats, the great British Romantic

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Speaker 2: poet who died of tuberculosis in eighteen twenty five. When

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Speaker 2: he was dying, Percy Shelley wrote him a letter that

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Speaker 2: was like, hey, you know, this is a bummer. I'm

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Speaker 2: paraphrasing this is a bummer and everything, but this consumption

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Speaker 2: does tend to strike people who write great verses as

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Speaker 2: you have done, which is a very interesting thing for

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Speaker 2: Percy Shelley to say, because he also had consumption. So

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Speaker 2: he was a little bit like, and I am also

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Speaker 2: a great poet. Consumption flex, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, consumption flex.

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Speaker 2: Classic consumption flex.

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Speaker 3: One's like you think about TV, is that we moralize it.

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Speaker 3: We look for explanations stigmatize people. Another psuchy thing about

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Speaker 3: TB is that it ruins this thing that we so

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Speaker 3: need to be healthy humans, which is our sense of connection.

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Speaker 3: So a super sad part about this book is that

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Speaker 3: John tells all these stories of TV patients who have

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Speaker 3: to get shipped off to some sanatorium. Henry is a

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Speaker 3: wonderful case in point here they just have little control

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Speaker 3: over their lives. And the interesting thing I thought was

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Speaker 3: so cool in your stories about TV is that this

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Speaker 3: has kind of been a big theme of your work

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Speaker 3: with fictional characters too, Right, these folks who just want

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Speaker 3: to be connected and just want to be part of

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Speaker 3: the world, but they kind of can't for some reason.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm curious what you learned about isolation from

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Speaker 3: TB and kind of connection broadly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Henry has told me that his dream is to

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Speaker 2: be a person in society, which I think is so

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Speaker 2: beautiful because he just wants to be accepted as a

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Speaker 2: full person in his society, and for so long that

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Speaker 2: was denied to him because of tuberculosis, not because of

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Speaker 2: the disease itself, but because of the way the disease

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Speaker 2: is imagined. By us, by the people around him, by

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Speaker 2: his community, and it is really really difficult, especially you know, historically,

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Speaker 2: like my great uncle died of tuberculosis in nineteen thirty

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Speaker 2: and he was in a sanatorium. He died in a sanatorium,

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Speaker 2: like so many millions of Americans, and he was in

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Speaker 2: a sanatorium. And in those sanatoria, people's lives were so

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Speaker 2: highly controlled. They were told that they shouldn't cry, including children,

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Speaker 2: were told they shouldn't cry because it would be an

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Speaker 2: exciting cause of tuberculosis. They were often told they couldn't

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Speaker 2: be visited by their families because that might excite them

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Speaker 2: and lead to tuberculosis. They were told they couldn't stand up,

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Speaker 2: They were told they whether or not they were allowed

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Speaker 2: to read, whether or not they were allowed to journal,

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Speaker 2: and so on. They lived these very highly controlled lives,

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Speaker 2: and unfortunately that's still the case for many people living

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Speaker 2: with tuberculosis. We still emphasize control over care.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is something more broadly about disease.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you've talked, you know, as you just did

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Speaker 3: so nicely about your own mental health struggles. I think

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Speaker 3: anybody facing any disease right now, it's kind of the

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Speaker 3: loneliness connection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard to be isolated, right, And disease

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Speaker 2: itself can be isolating because it makes us hard for

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Speaker 2: it can make it hard for us to leave the house.

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Speaker 2: It can, especially infectious disease can make it dangerous to

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Speaker 2: be around other people, and that's really hard. Those interruptions

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Speaker 2: to connections are so profound. And I think it's safe

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Speaker 2: to say that if Henry had been like most people

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Speaker 2: and had been completely abandoned by his family the way

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Speaker 2: so many people are, he probably wouldn't have survived. But

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Speaker 2: he was very fortunate and is very fortunate to have

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Speaker 2: an extraordinary mother who visited him almost every day of

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Speaker 2: the three years that he was hospitalized and brought him

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Speaker 2: extra food every chance that she got, and loved him

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Speaker 2: through that. He wrote a beautiful poem about her that

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Speaker 2: I quote in the book about how he said, you

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Speaker 2: stand here when others ran away, and that switch of

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Speaker 2: tents where he's talking about his mother standing in the

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Speaker 2: present tents and everyone running away in the past tense

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Speaker 2: has always been so meaningful to me.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's also really lucky that he's

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Speaker 3: an amazing author that's bringing his story to light here today.

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Speaker 4: This is a part Us just a clap food.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to a special bonus episode with me talking

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Speaker 1: live to author John Green about his book Everything Is Tuberculosis.

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Speaker 1: It's time for a break, but we'll be back in

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Speaker 1: a moment. So I want to switch gears and talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about happiness.

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Speaker 2: Because I love talking about happiness. I talk about what

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Speaker 2: an easy time to talk about happiness, Laurie, No, But

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Speaker 2: this is why I'm.

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Speaker 3: So happy to be on stage with you talking about happiness,

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Speaker 3: because I think you know, usually when we talk about happiness,

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Speaker 3: we get it wrong. We're kind of in toxic positivity space,

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Speaker 3: where's like, happiness is about ignoring all the terrible stuck

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Speaker 3: in the world, and we're just going to be like joy, joy,

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Speaker 3: joy all the time. And I think you get happy

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Speaker 3: Pinus right from a scientific perspective because you realize that

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Speaker 3: meaning comes not from avoiding suffering, but from embracing it

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Speaker 3: with a sense of duty curiosity. You get that wonder

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Speaker 3: can come from really mundane, weird stuff, and we can

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Speaker 3: kind of get positive emotion from that, and you get

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Speaker 3: that in the face of like really terrible, sucky stuff.

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Speaker 3: The move is curiosity and kindness and so he's actually

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Speaker 3: kind of happiness expert.

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Speaker 4: I think is really what we're getting at.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. That is my reputation.

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Speaker 5: So let's start with hope.

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Speaker 3: You've said before that you don't like this idea of optimism,

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Speaker 3: but prefer this concept of hope. How do you define hope?

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Speaker 3: And what is thinking so closely about TV taught you

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Speaker 3: about hope.

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Speaker 2: Hope for me is a belief that we can make

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Speaker 2: the world better together. We can only do it together,

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Speaker 2: but we can do it together. And it's also a

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Speaker 2: belief that human beings can be good news. I'm not

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Speaker 2: saying that we are good news. We're certainly not good

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Speaker 2: news all the time. I'm not saying we're good news.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying we can be good news. We might be

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Speaker 2: good news. We can become good news, and we can

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Speaker 2: be good news for each other. Right like that, That

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Speaker 2: is what I really believe. And I believe that because

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Speaker 2: if I don't like, my life is in danger. Like

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Speaker 2: despair for me is not some it's not some abstract

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Speaker 2: idea that feels very distant. It's something that I struggle

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Speaker 2: against every days. It's the thing that makes it hardest

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Speaker 2: to get out of bed. You know, much more than fatigue.

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Speaker 2: It's fear and despair and worrying and being consumed by

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Speaker 2: those emotions. And if I don't have a measure of

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Speaker 2: hope to combat that with, I'm in big, big trouble.

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Speaker 2: And so I have spent a lot of time trying

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Speaker 2: to develop my sense of hope and hold on to

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Speaker 2: it and believe that it is the correct response to

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Speaker 2: the human condition. And I really do believe it.

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Speaker 3: You had this is where I reveal I'm a nerd

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Speaker 3: and I read everything about John, but you had this

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Speaker 3: quote that I love and whish I could just totally steal.

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Speaker 3: Which is the most punk rock thing to do in

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Speaker 3: the world right now, is to embrace the current problems

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Speaker 3: with earnestness and hope.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, earnestness is so underrated man, People like to uh

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Speaker 2: And I get it. I totally get it, especially if

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Speaker 2: you're young you've had an uncommonly crappy situation that you've

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Speaker 2: grown up in, like if you're under the age of

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Speaker 2: like thirty five, My I'm sorry. And also like I

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Speaker 2: feel a little responsible because like we did. We did

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Speaker 2: that a lot of it, not all of it. Some

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Speaker 2: of it was done by infectious disease, but we did

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Speaker 2: a bunch of it, and I'm sorry, are bad. We

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Speaker 2: didn't do a good job of being good news for

432
00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:15,916
Speaker 2: you a lot of times, and I'm really, I'm genuinely

433
00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,556
Speaker 2: sorry about that. And this is a really difficult time

434
00:24:18,596 --> 00:24:21,916
Speaker 2: to grow up. But I think so many people use

435
00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:25,156
Speaker 2: irony as a kind of armor, as a way of

436
00:24:25,196 --> 00:24:28,436
Speaker 2: trying to protect themselves, and I absolutely understand wanting to

437
00:24:28,476 --> 00:24:32,156
Speaker 2: protect yourself. It can you know, being earnest to the

438
00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:35,596
Speaker 2: world is hard work. I think about it in terms

439
00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:38,956
Speaker 2: of my dog who would who would my old dog

440
00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,436
Speaker 2: who who's since passed away. He would he would run

441
00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:43,676
Speaker 2: around and then he would get real tired and he

442
00:24:43,716 --> 00:24:46,796
Speaker 2: would roll over and he would show his belly to us,

443
00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:49,836
Speaker 2: the vulnerable part, the most vulnerable part of him. He

444
00:24:49,876 --> 00:24:54,436
Speaker 2: would show it to us and trust us. And that's earnestness.

445
00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:57,596
Speaker 2: And it's hard, hard work, and it's hard work to

446
00:24:57,636 --> 00:24:59,916
Speaker 2: be vulnerable, but I think it's worth it.

447
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:06,516
Speaker 3: That's a nice transition because one of the things I

448
00:25:06,556 --> 00:25:08,876
Speaker 3: absolutely love about your work is a kind of counter

449
00:25:08,956 --> 00:25:11,516
Speaker 3: and tuitive thing, which is it. I know lots of

450
00:25:11,556 --> 00:25:13,516
Speaker 3: your fans know that one of the goals of being

451
00:25:13,516 --> 00:25:15,396
Speaker 3: a nerd fighters, We're going to decrease the suck.

452
00:25:15,476 --> 00:25:17,796
Speaker 4: Yours to decreasing the sock in the audience.

453
00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:21,316
Speaker 3: Right, But the counter intuitive part is that to decrease

454
00:25:21,356 --> 00:25:25,196
Speaker 3: the suck, you often have to actively point out the suck, right,

455
00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:27,916
Speaker 3: to find the hidden suck and drag it out into

456
00:25:27,916 --> 00:25:30,836
Speaker 3: plain sight when no one's paying attention to Triberculiss, you're like, no.

457
00:25:30,876 --> 00:25:32,156
Speaker 4: Look at the suck. Look at it.

458
00:25:32,196 --> 00:25:35,876
Speaker 3: You wave the suck in people's faces, and that must

459
00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:37,996
Speaker 3: be hard, Like you're kind of the bearer of the

460
00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:42,276
Speaker 3: suck in lots of ways, and I'm curious how you

461
00:25:42,276 --> 00:25:42,716
Speaker 3: handle that.

462
00:25:43,356 --> 00:25:46,396
Speaker 2: Well. The key for me is being able to handle

463
00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:49,636
Speaker 2: that in community. You know, I am not the only

464
00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:53,356
Speaker 2: TV fighter in the world. There are thousands, maybe millions

465
00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:57,036
Speaker 2: of TV fighters. There are TV hunters in Lisutu right

466
00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:02,036
Speaker 2: now actively finding cases of tuberculosis, not just waiting for

467
00:26:02,076 --> 00:26:04,236
Speaker 2: people to come into the hospital when they're so sick

468
00:26:04,276 --> 00:26:07,156
Speaker 2: that it's very hard to cure them. There are TV

469
00:26:07,276 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 2: fighters in the back of the room right now who

470
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:20,356
Speaker 2: are partly responsible, who are partly responsible for the fact

471
00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:23,916
Speaker 2: that two million more gene expert tests are available than

472
00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:26,676
Speaker 2: were last year because Dan and hur finally lowered the

473
00:26:26,716 --> 00:26:37,156
Speaker 2: price of that test. And it's hard, hard work. It's

474
00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,636
Speaker 2: hard work for community health workers. It's hard work for

475
00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:43,716
Speaker 2: doctors and nurses, it's hard work for us. It's hard work.

476
00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:45,876
Speaker 2: But it's also really good work. And to do it

477
00:26:45,916 --> 00:26:50,636
Speaker 2: in community is fun. The last thing the great physician

478
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,796
Speaker 2: Paul Farmer ever said to me was, isn't this fun?

479
00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:55,836
Speaker 2: Isn't it fun that we get to be friends in

480
00:26:55,876 --> 00:26:59,836
Speaker 2: this work? And that's true. It was really fun to

481
00:26:59,876 --> 00:27:00,716
Speaker 2: be friends with Paul.

482
00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,836
Speaker 4: I mean, this is something that we get wrong a lot, right.

483
00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:07,276
Speaker 3: We think, you know, kind of avoiding discomfort rather than

484
00:27:07,276 --> 00:27:09,956
Speaker 3: sort of embracing it in community. The path through a

485
00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:11,956
Speaker 3: happy life is the path to a more beatingful life

486
00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:14,156
Speaker 3: because you just kind of keep all the good emotions and.

487
00:27:14,116 --> 00:27:14,916
Speaker 4: Get rid of the bad.

488
00:27:14,996 --> 00:27:17,436
Speaker 3: But one thing I love that your work has done

489
00:27:17,436 --> 00:27:20,036
Speaker 3: for me, your novels and this book is like it

490
00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:21,796
Speaker 3: kind of puts it in your face and makes you

491
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:24,396
Speaker 3: think about it more. It also feels like this is

492
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:27,196
Speaker 3: something that you've done for a while. I know, way

493
00:27:27,276 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 3: back in the day you had time working as a

494
00:27:29,316 --> 00:27:32,356
Speaker 3: student chaplain and children's hospitals. I feel like that maybe

495
00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:33,996
Speaker 3: must have been some of the first spots you look

496
00:27:34,036 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 3: closely at illness and death, so maybe you really experience

497
00:27:37,156 --> 00:27:39,196
Speaker 3: with it, but a lot of us don't like looking

498
00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:42,396
Speaker 3: at the suck like so close on. I'm curious how

499
00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:45,356
Speaker 3: you learn to sit with just comfort rather than running

500
00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:47,276
Speaker 3: from it. And also, just like how you did it

501
00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:50,036
Speaker 3: for the book, right, you were trying to bring this

502
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:52,276
Speaker 3: out to community with your work, but there was a

503
00:27:52,316 --> 00:27:54,116
Speaker 3: lot of times you were sitting with some pretty negative

504
00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:56,076
Speaker 3: stuff writing this, and I'm just kind of curious how

505
00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:56,756
Speaker 3: you tackle that.

506
00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:00,316
Speaker 2: I wanted to write a hopeful book. I think that

507
00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:04,116
Speaker 2: all good books, all true books, are have to be hopeful,

508
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:07,316
Speaker 2: because I think hope is, for lack of a better term, true.

509
00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:10,076
Speaker 2: But I also wanted to write a the honest book.

510
00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:13,716
Speaker 2: And the honest truth is that tuberculosis is an unbelievably

511
00:28:13,796 --> 00:28:17,956
Speaker 2: horrifying scourge that we've allowed to be with us now

512
00:28:18,036 --> 00:28:21,716
Speaker 2: for the seventy years since it's been curable, and that

513
00:28:21,836 --> 00:28:24,076
Speaker 2: says a lot about us. It says that we don't

514
00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,036
Speaker 2: value all human lives equally, even if we say we do.

515
00:28:27,156 --> 00:28:30,636
Speaker 2: It says that we've built systems that exclude people, that

516
00:28:30,796 --> 00:28:35,116
Speaker 2: exclude especially marginalized and racialized people. It says that we've

517
00:28:36,276 --> 00:28:40,196
Speaker 2: failed to deliver cures to the people who need those

518
00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:43,036
Speaker 2: cures the most. It says that we've built systems that

519
00:28:44,076 --> 00:28:49,796
Speaker 2: prioritize the creation of capital over the creation of saving

520
00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 2: human the creation of human health. It says a lot

521
00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:56,956
Speaker 2: of bad things about us, but it is also true,

522
00:28:57,276 --> 00:29:00,156
Speaker 2: as I say in the book, that the year I

523
00:29:00,196 --> 00:29:04,476
Speaker 2: graduated from college, two point five million people died of tuberculosis,

524
00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:07,316
Speaker 2: and last year one point twenty five million did. That's

525
00:29:07,316 --> 00:29:10,276
Speaker 2: one point twenty five million too many. Nobody should die

526
00:29:10,276 --> 00:29:14,716
Speaker 2: of tuberculosis. But that progress is real, and it's important

527
00:29:14,756 --> 00:29:18,276
Speaker 2: to understand that it wasn't natural, it wasn't inevitable, it

528
00:29:18,316 --> 00:29:21,796
Speaker 2: wasn't always going to happen. That progress happened because lots

529
00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:24,756
Speaker 2: of people work together to make it happen, and we

530
00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:28,516
Speaker 2: devoted resources and attention to making it happen. And so

531
00:29:29,036 --> 00:29:33,556
Speaker 2: for me, the answer to that question is solidarity, solidarity, solidarity.

532
00:29:33,596 --> 00:29:35,916
Speaker 2: The answer to that question is trying to find ways

533
00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:39,476
Speaker 2: to be in community to feel less alone. That is

534
00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:42,156
Speaker 2: really the key for me. When I don't feel alone

535
00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:45,276
Speaker 2: in my feelings or in the world, I feel happy.

536
00:29:45,596 --> 00:29:47,916
Speaker 2: And when I do feel alone, in my feelings or

537
00:29:47,956 --> 00:29:50,916
Speaker 2: in the world. I feel scared, and so.

538
00:29:51,076 --> 00:29:54,396
Speaker 3: Let's talk about how you've not felt alone in this process.

539
00:29:54,436 --> 00:29:56,076
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that's amazing about your

540
00:29:56,116 --> 00:29:58,076
Speaker 3: work is that you use the power of narrative to

541
00:29:58,116 --> 00:30:00,516
Speaker 3: shape how a lot of people have viewed the situation

542
00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:03,676
Speaker 3: thinking about it, maybe not with despair, but with like

543
00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:06,356
Speaker 3: this is sucky, but like we can put some agency

544
00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:08,836
Speaker 3: in to fix this. I'm just curious what the response

545
00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:11,556
Speaker 3: has been from your fans so far, Like, what have

546
00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:14,356
Speaker 3: you heard about people learning about the TV crisis through

547
00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:15,556
Speaker 3: this book and through your work.

548
00:30:16,236 --> 00:30:20,516
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty great, it's pretty amazing. This. So I

549
00:30:20,676 --> 00:30:23,836
Speaker 2: just realized just now in the last three seconds that

550
00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:26,636
Speaker 2: there are probably some like infectious disease doctors who thought

551
00:30:26,636 --> 00:30:28,876
Speaker 2: they were coming to a talk about tuberculosis.

552
00:30:30,036 --> 00:30:31,396
Speaker 4: I mean, we can go there if you want. I

553
00:30:31,436 --> 00:30:32,476
Speaker 4: was gonna do with happiness.

554
00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:35,116
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I just totally forgot about them. And they

555
00:30:35,196 --> 00:30:38,996
Speaker 2: must be like, who the hell is this guy? Why

556
00:30:39,036 --> 00:30:41,076
Speaker 2: are all these people laughing at these jokes? I don't

557
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:46,156
Speaker 2: understand why. If I say it's not normal to sneeze,

558
00:30:46,196 --> 00:30:55,196
Speaker 2: well they have a reaction. So please don't feel excluded.

559
00:30:55,596 --> 00:31:04,436
Speaker 2: Please feel welcomed. I forgot your question because I got

560
00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:07,836
Speaker 2: concerned about the infectious disease doctors reaction. Ben Like, the

561
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:10,756
Speaker 2: reaction has been incredible. I mean, it's been not that

562
00:31:10,836 --> 00:31:14,956
Speaker 2: I'm reading every good Reads review but which you should

563
00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:16,916
Speaker 2: not do. I know there are some authors in the room,

564
00:31:17,036 --> 00:31:20,676
Speaker 2: some author friends, some authors in the room don't read

565
00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:29,316
Speaker 2: your Goodreads reviews, but I should. I should suffer. You

566
00:31:29,356 --> 00:31:32,836
Speaker 2: should not do as I say, not as I do.

567
00:31:33,476 --> 00:31:36,676
Speaker 2: But no, the response has been incredible and really overwhelming.

568
00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:39,916
Speaker 2: I mean, just the fact that, like I mean to

569
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:43,236
Speaker 2: your point that you made at the beginning of our conversation,

570
00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:46,156
Speaker 2: the fact that people would be like, oh, this young

571
00:31:46,156 --> 00:31:51,596
Speaker 2: adult novelist wrote a book about tuberculosis I'm in is incredible,

572
00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:59,596
Speaker 2: Like that is an incredible fact, What a what a

573
00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:02,516
Speaker 2: gift to me. Thank you so so much for believing

574
00:32:02,516 --> 00:32:05,396
Speaker 2: in my work that much and just being here today.

575
00:32:07,036 --> 00:32:09,116
Speaker 3: So but this is just a theme with so much

576
00:32:09,156 --> 00:32:11,796
Speaker 3: your work, at least my kind of interaction with your work,

577
00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:14,356
Speaker 3: which is like your stuff always brings us into things

578
00:32:14,356 --> 00:32:16,196
Speaker 3: that we do not face, and a big one for

579
00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:19,356
Speaker 3: me because I'm a huge the natophobe. Is it a

580
00:32:19,356 --> 00:32:22,076
Speaker 3: lot of your work deals with the fragility of life.

581
00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:24,276
Speaker 3: The natophobia is fear of death. By the way, probably a.

582
00:32:24,236 --> 00:32:24,476
Speaker 4: Lot of you.

583
00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:26,636
Speaker 2: Oh thank god, I was in trouble.

584
00:32:27,996 --> 00:32:30,076
Speaker 3: So I was dropping some Yale professor's stuff right there.

585
00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:31,356
Speaker 3: I apologize. I apologize, No.

586
00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:33,156
Speaker 4: Like yours stuff.

587
00:32:33,156 --> 00:32:35,396
Speaker 3: I mean fall on ourself, Like you just make us

588
00:32:35,476 --> 00:32:38,156
Speaker 3: look at death like we're part of the natural world.

589
00:32:38,276 --> 00:32:42,716
Speaker 3: It's gonna happen to YouTube, yes, but like we don't

590
00:32:42,876 --> 00:32:45,076
Speaker 3: like to think of ourselves as animals, Like we don't.

591
00:32:45,116 --> 00:32:46,556
Speaker 4: We don't like to look at the natural world.

592
00:32:46,556 --> 00:32:48,076
Speaker 3: And I think that has led to a lot of

593
00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,716
Speaker 3: the stigma and the stuff we're talking about. And yeah,

594
00:32:51,756 --> 00:32:53,836
Speaker 3: the good news is that the science shows that you're right.

595
00:32:54,276 --> 00:32:56,796
Speaker 3: The more we focus on the fragility of life, the

596
00:32:56,796 --> 00:32:59,116
Speaker 3: more you embrace it, the more you do generous stuff,

597
00:32:59,156 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 3: the more you live well. But I'm just curious how

598
00:33:02,716 --> 00:33:06,076
Speaker 3: you deal with that, Like, what's gravitated you towards this,

599
00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,956
Speaker 3: and what have you discovered personally by focusing on this

600
00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:10,076
Speaker 3: so closely.

601
00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:12,996
Speaker 2: Well, I just think it's a big deal. I'm a

602
00:33:13,036 --> 00:33:17,436
Speaker 2: little like you. I'm a little confused. It's a thing.

603
00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:20,116
Speaker 2: I'm a little confused. Why everyone else isn't thinking about

604
00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:23,716
Speaker 2: it all the time. Yeah, yeah, right. I texted my

605
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:25,956
Speaker 2: brother once I was in an airport and I texted

606
00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:27,676
Speaker 2: my brother, do you ever think about the fact that

607
00:33:27,796 --> 00:33:30,716
Speaker 2: when you're in an airport, everybody who's in the airport

608
00:33:30,756 --> 00:33:34,876
Speaker 2: will be gone in like seven or eight decades? And

609
00:33:34,956 --> 00:33:44,076
Speaker 2: Hank God bless him wrote back, No, but I do,

610
00:33:44,156 --> 00:33:47,316
Speaker 2: LORI I do. I don't know why. I don't know

611
00:33:47,356 --> 00:33:51,716
Speaker 2: why I was put here to witness a lot of

612
00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:53,756
Speaker 2: death and talk a lot about death, but I was.

613
00:33:54,316 --> 00:33:57,476
Speaker 2: And that's just that's that's the situation I ended up in.

614
00:33:58,396 --> 00:34:00,796
Speaker 2: I am like you, I don't know if I'm afraid

615
00:34:00,796 --> 00:34:03,516
Speaker 2: of death so much as I'm deeply concerned about it,

616
00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:07,756
Speaker 2: you know, like I just think it's a very very

617
00:34:07,796 --> 00:34:10,876
Speaker 2: big deal and that we need to we should spend

618
00:34:10,956 --> 00:34:13,476
Speaker 2: more time thinking and talking about it, because when we

619
00:34:13,596 --> 00:34:17,076
Speaker 2: don't than when people are dying, or when people who

620
00:34:17,396 --> 00:34:20,756
Speaker 2: are going are with people who are dying, we kind

621
00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:22,796
Speaker 2: of exclude them. We sort of push them to the side,

622
00:34:22,876 --> 00:34:25,796
Speaker 2: and we're like, oh no, that's very inconvenient, Like that's

623
00:34:25,796 --> 00:34:28,036
Speaker 2: something I don't like thinking about, that's something I don't

624
00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:30,636
Speaker 2: like being exposed to, and that makes it so much

625
00:34:30,716 --> 00:34:33,116
Speaker 2: harder to die. It makes it so much harder to

626
00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:36,316
Speaker 2: love someone who's dying. And so I think it's I

627
00:34:36,396 --> 00:34:39,356
Speaker 2: just think it's important, And I think dying people and

628
00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 2: people who are loving people who are dying need to

629
00:34:41,916 --> 00:34:44,156
Speaker 2: be fully embraced by the social order.

630
00:34:44,716 --> 00:34:46,676
Speaker 3: And then we need to remember that we can take

631
00:34:46,716 --> 00:34:49,236
Speaker 3: agency to fix the parts of the social order that

632
00:34:49,236 --> 00:34:51,436
Speaker 3: are hurting people, that are causing people to suffer.

633
00:34:51,716 --> 00:34:54,036
Speaker 4: Yeah, you have this love. There's so many good quotes

634
00:34:54,036 --> 00:34:54,516
Speaker 4: in this book.

635
00:34:54,596 --> 00:34:56,556
Speaker 3: You guys, bring a highlighter when you start reading this

636
00:34:56,556 --> 00:34:58,476
Speaker 3: because you're just gonna want to agree easy. But here's

637
00:34:58,516 --> 00:35:00,956
Speaker 3: another one that I think fits with this idea a lot.

638
00:35:01,356 --> 00:35:04,036
Speaker 3: You note that when we know about suffering, when we

639
00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 3: are proximal to it, we are capable of great generosity.

640
00:35:07,916 --> 00:35:09,636
Speaker 3: That is a striking thing about your is that you

641
00:35:09,676 --> 00:35:12,636
Speaker 3: make us care about life that's really fragile, but you

642
00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:14,236
Speaker 3: somehow allow us to do it in a way that

643
00:35:14,276 --> 00:35:16,396
Speaker 3: doesn't cause us to like, you know, shield their eyes.

644
00:35:16,596 --> 00:35:19,836
Speaker 3: You cause us to react with generosity and helpfulness. And

645
00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:22,076
Speaker 3: so I want you to tell some stories of generosity

646
00:35:22,116 --> 00:35:23,516
Speaker 3: that have come out from this book.

647
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:25,036
Speaker 4: You know, what have the.

648
00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:27,476
Speaker 3: Fans been able to do these sort of TV fighters

649
00:35:27,756 --> 00:35:29,756
Speaker 3: that maybe wouldn't have happened if you hadn't written this.

650
00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:35,476
Speaker 2: So many TV fighters are taking actions. One of those

651
00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:40,316
Speaker 2: actions is something like giving money to support TV charities

652
00:35:40,356 --> 00:35:42,956
Speaker 2: who are trying to fill gaps that, I want to

653
00:35:42,956 --> 00:35:45,796
Speaker 2: be clear, cannot be filled by anything but governments, but

654
00:35:45,836 --> 00:35:49,756
Speaker 2: are desperately trying to fill whatever gaps they can. And

655
00:35:49,796 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 2: that is itself a tremendously generous and helpful action. Also,

656
00:35:55,196 --> 00:35:57,116
Speaker 2: and I know this, I know you hear this all

657
00:35:57,156 --> 00:36:01,916
Speaker 2: the time, and it sounds like pitter patter, I totally understand.

658
00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:06,636
Speaker 2: But people like TV fighters regularly organize call athons and

659
00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:12,276
Speaker 2: email athons to reach out to their representative, and that

660
00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:14,636
Speaker 2: matters when I talk to people in Washington. I talked

661
00:36:14,636 --> 00:36:16,236
Speaker 2: to someone a couple of days ago who was like,

662
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:18,476
Speaker 2: I have been getting a lot of calls about tuberculosis,

663
00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:23,396
Speaker 2: and I'm like, good, I hope you're getting a lot

664
00:36:23,396 --> 00:36:26,236
Speaker 2: of calls about other things as well. I hope you're

665
00:36:26,236 --> 00:36:28,436
Speaker 2: getting a lot of calls about diseases of injustice, like

666
00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:36,636
Speaker 2: malaria and HIV and diabetes and heart disease. And so

667
00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:39,356
Speaker 2: I'd really think that matters. And and I am so

668
00:36:39,476 --> 00:36:43,156
Speaker 2: inspired by them, they really they really lead me. They'll

669
00:36:43,196 --> 00:36:45,556
Speaker 2: have a Callithon and I'll be like, oh God, all right,

670
00:36:45,596 --> 00:36:50,276
Speaker 2: I'll call Todd Young. And Todd Young is a senator

671
00:36:50,316 --> 00:36:53,156
Speaker 2: of mine who's a big believer in global health, has

672
00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:55,316
Speaker 2: been a big supporter of global health, was one of

673
00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:58,476
Speaker 2: the sponsors of the NTV Now Act. But I right

674
00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:00,956
Speaker 2: now need him to be more more public in his

675
00:37:01,116 --> 00:37:04,836
Speaker 2: support of global health. And so I just call him,

676
00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:06,116
Speaker 2: you know, and I let him know that.

677
00:37:09,116 --> 00:37:10,436
Speaker 3: One of the reasons I'm so glad you bring this

678
00:37:10,516 --> 00:37:13,276
Speaker 3: up is, like me writing about happiness science now, is

679
00:37:13,316 --> 00:37:15,476
Speaker 3: that there's lots of evidence that one of the best

680
00:37:15,476 --> 00:37:17,996
Speaker 3: things you can do to increase hope is to actually

681
00:37:17,996 --> 00:37:21,316
Speaker 3: take agency about something small. When you make this speed

682
00:37:21,356 --> 00:37:23,876
Speaker 3: del call to your senator and or you do something

683
00:37:23,876 --> 00:37:26,396
Speaker 3: to fight TV, it doesn't just like do good in

684
00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:28,716
Speaker 3: the world. It actually changes your psychology. You kind of

685
00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:30,996
Speaker 3: feel like, oh, there are ways to take action on

686
00:37:31,036 --> 00:37:33,956
Speaker 3: these things. Like it's a funny kind of like spiral

687
00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:36,956
Speaker 3: loop that when we act in ways that are hopeful,

688
00:37:37,156 --> 00:37:39,876
Speaker 3: we actually become more hopeful. And so I think that

689
00:37:39,916 --> 00:37:41,916
Speaker 3: you're increasing hope in a couple ways. One just through

690
00:37:41,916 --> 00:37:44,396
Speaker 3: the narrative but second, just through getting people to get

691
00:37:44,396 --> 00:37:45,596
Speaker 3: off their butt and do stuff.

692
00:37:46,076 --> 00:37:48,636
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel better. And it's really hard to get

693
00:37:48,676 --> 00:37:51,596
Speaker 2: off your butt and do stuff, especially right now, like

694
00:37:51,756 --> 00:37:55,116
Speaker 2: the temptation to despair is so overwhelming and the sort

695
00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,716
Speaker 2: of the horrors abound in so many directions for a

696
00:37:57,716 --> 00:38:00,556
Speaker 2: lot of people that it's really difficult to even know

697
00:38:00,716 --> 00:38:03,396
Speaker 2: where or what to respond to, where or what to

698
00:38:03,436 --> 00:38:08,916
Speaker 2: take action. But those, on some level you asked me earlier,

699
00:38:09,276 --> 00:38:11,476
Speaker 2: I picked TB, and on some level because I had

700
00:38:11,516 --> 00:38:14,836
Speaker 2: to pick something. You know, there's a lot of problems.

701
00:38:15,476 --> 00:38:17,316
Speaker 2: I could have picked one of the other ones, you know.

702
00:38:17,756 --> 00:38:19,916
Speaker 2: I could have picked climate change, I could have picked malaria.

703
00:38:19,956 --> 00:38:22,596
Speaker 2: I mean, there's an endless number of problems, right, But

704
00:38:22,636 --> 00:38:26,236
Speaker 2: I'm counting on y'all to solve some of those problems,

705
00:38:26,876 --> 00:38:29,076
Speaker 2: and then you count on me to try to deal

706
00:38:29,076 --> 00:38:32,356
Speaker 2: with TB, and then together, hopefully we make a better world.

707
00:38:41,596 --> 00:38:44,196
Speaker 3: So I'm going to just nerd out about more quotes

708
00:38:44,196 --> 00:38:45,876
Speaker 3: in this book because my highlighter died when I was

709
00:38:45,916 --> 00:38:47,436
Speaker 3: reading it, and so I'm just going to give you more.

710
00:38:48,636 --> 00:38:50,316
Speaker 3: This one is related to just where we were just

711
00:38:50,396 --> 00:38:52,676
Speaker 3: talking about this idea that like when you act, you

712
00:38:52,716 --> 00:38:55,876
Speaker 3: can overcome your despair. And you know that mere despair

713
00:38:56,036 --> 00:38:58,716
Speaker 3: never tells the whole human story as much as despair.

714
00:38:58,756 --> 00:39:01,476
Speaker 3: I would like to insist otherwise. And this was very

715
00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:04,636
Speaker 3: comforting for me because they suggested that John two experiences

716
00:39:04,716 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 3: despair about all this horrible stuff. He I mean, that's

717
00:39:08,036 --> 00:39:09,996
Speaker 3: like community, right, were just talking about why this is

718
00:39:10,036 --> 00:39:13,996
Speaker 3: zo immortant. But you're able to approach these moments of

719
00:39:14,036 --> 00:39:17,436
Speaker 3: despair in ways that truly show the human story. And

720
00:39:17,476 --> 00:39:19,596
Speaker 3: so I'm wondering with this book, in particular, with Henry's

721
00:39:19,596 --> 00:39:21,796
Speaker 3: story in particular, like how'd you tried to weave that in?

722
00:39:21,876 --> 00:39:25,276
Speaker 3: Because you're like throwing the despair out there. What kind

723
00:39:25,276 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 3: of like literary magic do you use to get us

724
00:39:28,076 --> 00:39:30,516
Speaker 3: to like flip the switch and go towards joy and

725
00:39:30,516 --> 00:39:31,236
Speaker 3: hope and so on.

726
00:39:31,556 --> 00:39:34,436
Speaker 2: Well, I tried to draw that arc, right, the arc

727
00:39:34,556 --> 00:39:37,356
Speaker 2: from despair to hope. On some level, that's the arc

728
00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:40,156
Speaker 2: of lots of my books. It's the arc I tried

729
00:39:40,196 --> 00:39:43,356
Speaker 2: to draw on the anthropascene reviewed too, from you know,

730
00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:49,516
Speaker 2: going from a place of profound hopelessness and fear and

731
00:39:49,556 --> 00:39:51,716
Speaker 2: a feeling that there was no reason to get out

732
00:39:51,716 --> 00:39:53,836
Speaker 2: of bed in the morning to a place of hope.

733
00:39:54,516 --> 00:39:56,636
Speaker 2: There's individual essays that try to draw that arc, but

734
00:39:56,676 --> 00:39:58,636
Speaker 2: the book itself also tries to draw that arc. And

735
00:39:58,676 --> 00:40:00,556
Speaker 2: I wanted to draw that arc in this book too,

736
00:40:01,236 --> 00:40:07,436
Speaker 2: because even though the size of the crisis is overwhelming,

737
00:40:07,796 --> 00:40:10,436
Speaker 2: and this is just one crisis among many, right like

738
00:40:10,476 --> 00:40:14,316
Speaker 2: tuberculosis is just one disease among many. Health is just

739
00:40:14,396 --> 00:40:18,316
Speaker 2: one issue among many. Even so, I still think that

740
00:40:18,356 --> 00:40:20,516
Speaker 2: there is cause for hope. I still think that there

741
00:40:20,556 --> 00:40:23,596
Speaker 2: is reason for hope, not because things are going to

742
00:40:23,676 --> 00:40:26,556
Speaker 2: get better in the next year, but because, like we

743
00:40:26,636 --> 00:40:29,476
Speaker 2: have to fight for them to get less worse. Every

744
00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:35,156
Speaker 2: person who doesn't die of tuberculosis is who would otherwise die,

745
00:40:35,676 --> 00:40:39,076
Speaker 2: is a success for us. And unfortunately, the number of

746
00:40:39,076 --> 00:40:41,316
Speaker 2: people who are going to die of tuberculosis is going

747
00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:44,076
Speaker 2: to go up because of decisions mostly made by my government,

748
00:40:44,516 --> 00:40:47,076
Speaker 2: to some extent decisions made by other governments, but mostly

749
00:40:47,156 --> 00:40:50,436
Speaker 2: decisions made by my government. My job is to try

750
00:40:50,476 --> 00:40:53,916
Speaker 2: to fight that every way I can, all along, all

751
00:40:54,196 --> 00:40:59,756
Speaker 2: along that journey, whether that's you know, legislatively, whether that's

752
00:40:59,916 --> 00:41:02,716
Speaker 2: through the through the judicial branch. However, that is to

753
00:41:02,756 --> 00:41:04,036
Speaker 2: fight that every way I can.

754
00:41:04,836 --> 00:41:06,836
Speaker 3: Another way I think you fight it really well. And

755
00:41:06,876 --> 00:41:08,756
Speaker 3: this is something that I'm so grateful for your work

756
00:41:08,796 --> 00:41:12,116
Speaker 3: for is you often fight the sucky stuff with awe,

757
00:41:12,276 --> 00:41:13,356
Speaker 3: the sense of wonder.

758
00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:14,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, wonder is underrated.

759
00:41:14,876 --> 00:41:16,996
Speaker 3: Man, oh my gosh, there's like a oh my gosh,

760
00:41:17,036 --> 00:41:18,996
Speaker 3: don't even get me started. In a happiness science, it's

761
00:41:18,996 --> 00:41:21,236
Speaker 3: like one of the positive emotions that is so easily

762
00:41:21,276 --> 00:41:23,396
Speaker 3: available to us, like literally in the people around us

763
00:41:23,396 --> 00:41:25,516
Speaker 3: and the good things they're doing, or in like nerdy science,

764
00:41:25,596 --> 00:41:27,236
Speaker 3: like just go on blog brothers and you'll see some

765
00:41:27,316 --> 00:41:30,036
Speaker 3: awe for sure, but we don't realize it's such a

766
00:41:30,076 --> 00:41:33,436
Speaker 3: powerful emotion. And so I wanted to ask you an

767
00:41:33,436 --> 00:41:37,276
Speaker 3: awe question. In the whole TV story that you've told,

768
00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:39,356
Speaker 3: what was the moment where you found the most wonder,

769
00:41:39,476 --> 00:41:40,236
Speaker 3: the most awe?

770
00:41:40,236 --> 00:41:45,756
Speaker 2: And thinking about this story, there's a moment where we

771
00:41:46,516 --> 00:41:50,316
Speaker 2: as a species figured out that this wasn't an inherited disease,

772
00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:54,556
Speaker 2: that this was a disease caused by a bacterium. And

773
00:41:55,236 --> 00:41:58,236
Speaker 2: I was reading about this moment where Robert Coke is

774
00:41:58,876 --> 00:42:03,076
Speaker 2: literally giving like reading a paper at a scientific conference

775
00:42:03,956 --> 00:42:08,316
Speaker 2: and the audience just falls completely quiet, and one member

776
00:42:08,316 --> 00:42:10,596
Speaker 2: of the audience and I hold that evening to be

777
00:42:10,636 --> 00:42:14,396
Speaker 2: the most significant moment of my scientific life, and that

778
00:42:15,036 --> 00:42:19,596
Speaker 2: moment when we realized, Okay, this isn't an inherited condition.

779
00:42:20,516 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 2: This is an infectious condition, which means that we need

780
00:42:23,516 --> 00:42:26,116
Speaker 2: to be imagining it and understanding it and fighting it

781
00:42:26,316 --> 00:42:29,596
Speaker 2: very differently, not just accepting it but trying to try

782
00:42:29,636 --> 00:42:32,596
Speaker 2: to find ways to fight it. Is a huge moment

783
00:42:32,636 --> 00:42:34,996
Speaker 2: in human history, and it really is a moment of

784
00:42:35,396 --> 00:42:39,636
Speaker 2: awe because it was the culmination of so many generations

785
00:42:39,676 --> 00:42:42,756
Speaker 2: of people trying to understand the world around them, the

786
00:42:42,796 --> 00:42:46,196
Speaker 2: culmination of people trying to develop microscopes to see smaller

787
00:42:46,236 --> 00:42:50,996
Speaker 2: and smaller creatures, and eventually we see these wiggling rods

788
00:42:51,076 --> 00:42:53,196
Speaker 2: that we discover cause tuberculosis.

789
00:42:54,156 --> 00:42:57,636
Speaker 3: I mean, it's such a beautiful story because it's like sciencey,

790
00:42:57,716 --> 00:43:00,236
Speaker 3: nerdy science awe, Like, oh my god, we figured I

791
00:43:00,276 --> 00:43:02,276
Speaker 3: was on microbe. But it was also a story of

792
00:43:02,276 --> 00:43:05,276
Speaker 3: people like tackling these interesting problems, Like you tell such

793
00:43:05,316 --> 00:43:07,076
Speaker 3: great human stories about the scientist.

794
00:43:07,716 --> 00:43:09,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like trying to figure out like how do

795
00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:12,756
Speaker 2: you actually prove a chain of transmission? Bad news for

796
00:43:13,276 --> 00:43:18,116
Speaker 2: guinea pigs for sure, but how do you prove a

797
00:43:18,196 --> 00:43:23,076
Speaker 2: chain of transmission? How do you that this little wiggly

798
00:43:23,156 --> 00:43:26,396
Speaker 2: rod is actually what's causing the illness, not like just

799
00:43:26,556 --> 00:43:30,316
Speaker 2: some coincidence or some byproduct of the illness. That's a

800
00:43:30,396 --> 00:43:33,636
Speaker 2: really difficult problem, and Robert Coke had a brilliant solution

801
00:43:33,796 --> 00:43:37,596
Speaker 2: for it. Now later he would go on to cause

802
00:43:37,636 --> 00:43:41,996
Speaker 2: tremendous harm. And that's also part of the scientific story,

803
00:43:42,156 --> 00:43:45,836
Speaker 2: is that in the pursuit of scientific understanding, we can

804
00:43:45,916 --> 00:43:48,316
Speaker 2: cause a lot of harm, especially if we're not careful.

805
00:43:48,316 --> 00:43:51,596
Speaker 2: And he wasn't adequately careful when it came to promoting

806
00:43:51,636 --> 00:43:55,636
Speaker 2: what he believed was a solution to tuberculosis. But that

807
00:43:55,796 --> 00:43:58,676
Speaker 2: moment of discovery has always stuck with me because it's

808
00:43:58,796 --> 00:44:02,516
Speaker 2: just so because it wasn't just about him. It was

809
00:44:02,556 --> 00:44:06,996
Speaker 2: about thousands of people who'd contributed to that field. And

810
00:44:07,036 --> 00:44:08,916
Speaker 2: so he gets all the credit. But think about all

811
00:44:08,956 --> 00:44:11,316
Speaker 2: the people who had to follow down the wrong paths

812
00:44:11,356 --> 00:44:13,756
Speaker 2: in order for Robert Coke to understand what the right

813
00:44:13,796 --> 00:44:16,396
Speaker 2: path was. Think about the people who were editing the

814
00:44:16,436 --> 00:44:19,316
Speaker 2: medical journals that Robert Coke read, Think about the people

815
00:44:19,756 --> 00:44:24,996
Speaker 2: who were living with tuberculosis, who were pursuing their own

816
00:44:25,236 --> 00:44:28,116
Speaker 2: treatments and understandings of the disease. All the doctors who

817
00:44:28,156 --> 00:44:31,356
Speaker 2: are working on tuberculosis. This it's really a collaboration of

818
00:44:31,396 --> 00:44:33,356
Speaker 2: millions of people that led to this moment.

819
00:44:34,396 --> 00:44:36,436
Speaker 1: It's time for a break, but we'll be back soon

820
00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:38,756
Speaker 1: with more of John Green and his thoughts un Suck,

821
00:44:38,956 --> 00:44:40,796
Speaker 1: awesome and the end of tuberculosis.

822
00:44:48,756 --> 00:44:51,276
Speaker 3: Another theme that comes up in this book and in

823
00:44:51,316 --> 00:44:53,196
Speaker 3: lots of your books is that even when you're facing

824
00:44:53,196 --> 00:44:55,956
Speaker 3: these terrible situations, you can find these moments of like

825
00:44:56,196 --> 00:44:59,476
Speaker 3: small joy. And it was one of the best things

826
00:44:59,516 --> 00:45:01,956
Speaker 3: about the book is that you'll hear many of Henry's

827
00:45:02,036 --> 00:45:05,356
Speaker 3: moments of small joy. I'm curious where you're getting your

828
00:45:05,356 --> 00:45:08,596
Speaker 3: small moments of joy in this not the worst of circumstances,

829
00:45:08,636 --> 00:45:10,076
Speaker 3: but with the time right now.

830
00:45:11,036 --> 00:45:15,036
Speaker 2: People are always funny, Like people are funny. Dying people

831
00:45:15,036 --> 00:45:17,756
Speaker 2: are funny. People are funny when they're suffering, Like people

832
00:45:17,796 --> 00:45:20,476
Speaker 2: are funny. People are always funny. This is my favorite

833
00:45:20,516 --> 00:45:23,196
Speaker 2: thing about us is like I love some gallows humor.

834
00:45:23,596 --> 00:45:27,356
Speaker 2: I love some like late night everything is terrible, let's

835
00:45:27,396 --> 00:45:30,596
Speaker 2: make a joke about it, humor. And I just think

836
00:45:30,836 --> 00:45:34,516
Speaker 2: I find joy in that. I find joy in human connection.

837
00:45:34,956 --> 00:45:37,396
Speaker 2: I find joy in getting to do this work together

838
00:45:37,556 --> 00:45:42,556
Speaker 2: with y'all like to me it it goes back to

839
00:45:42,596 --> 00:45:46,036
Speaker 2: what Paul said, like, isn't this fun? You know, despite everything,

840
00:45:46,116 --> 00:45:49,236
Speaker 2: despite the fact that we're trying to tackle the world's

841
00:45:49,236 --> 00:45:52,876
Speaker 2: biggest problems and healthcare, inequity and the legacies, the horrific

842
00:45:52,956 --> 00:45:57,236
Speaker 2: legacies of colonialism. This, this being able to be in

843
00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:01,756
Speaker 2: this work together is really very quite fulfilling. And so

844
00:46:01,916 --> 00:46:03,876
Speaker 2: I find a lot of a lot of joy in that.

845
00:46:03,956 --> 00:46:06,956
Speaker 2: I find joy, for lack of a better term, in resistance.

846
00:46:13,116 --> 00:46:15,436
Speaker 3: I love the humor point too, because I had to say,

847
00:46:15,556 --> 00:46:17,516
Speaker 3: even though it was a John Grubbe book, I really

848
00:46:17,516 --> 00:46:18,116
Speaker 3: didn't think there.

849
00:46:18,036 --> 00:46:19,396
Speaker 4: Was gonna be a lot of humor in a book

850
00:46:19,396 --> 00:46:20,636
Speaker 4: about sparrculous West.

851
00:46:20,676 --> 00:46:21,356
Speaker 2: A couple of jokes in.

852
00:46:21,596 --> 00:46:23,396
Speaker 4: You know what, that's there. It's there. I found it.

853
00:46:23,836 --> 00:46:24,876
Speaker 4: But that's hard.

854
00:46:25,076 --> 00:46:27,796
Speaker 3: Like again, it kind of just nerdy literary question, right,

855
00:46:27,876 --> 00:46:31,076
Speaker 3: like how do you find ways to weave the humor

856
00:46:31,116 --> 00:46:33,356
Speaker 3: into such a terrible story of suffering?

857
00:46:34,076 --> 00:46:36,756
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I would just say that, like Henry

858
00:46:36,836 --> 00:46:41,596
Speaker 2: is a very funny person who suffered a lot. I

859
00:46:41,596 --> 00:46:50,756
Speaker 2: have suffered some and yet am hilarious. I don't know,

860
00:46:51,276 --> 00:47:00,356
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for that thoroughly unearned applause. Yeah,

861
00:47:00,516 --> 00:47:06,436
Speaker 2: like every you know, life is funny books. Horace said

862
00:47:06,436 --> 00:47:09,996
Speaker 2: twenty one hundred years ago that poetry should inst and delight.

863
00:47:10,516 --> 00:47:14,116
Speaker 2: It's easy to instruct, it's hard to delight. It's especially

864
00:47:14,156 --> 00:47:18,236
Speaker 2: hard to delight when you're instructing. And I did want

865
00:47:18,236 --> 00:47:20,556
Speaker 2: this to be a book that at least had moments

866
00:47:20,556 --> 00:47:24,356
Speaker 2: of delight, because, you know, reading a book should should

867
00:47:24,356 --> 00:47:27,876
Speaker 2: be pleasurable. It shouldn't feel like work. It shouldn't feel like, oh,

868
00:47:27,956 --> 00:47:31,396
Speaker 2: I've got this obligation. It should feel like a connection,

869
00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:34,316
Speaker 2: a chance to you know, connect with a story and

870
00:47:34,356 --> 00:47:37,596
Speaker 2: connect with an author and kind of co create something together.

871
00:47:39,196 --> 00:47:41,356
Speaker 3: So we're tragically running out of time because this is

872
00:47:41,436 --> 00:47:43,636
Speaker 3: like the coolest hour of my wife to be up

873
00:47:43,636 --> 00:47:47,156
Speaker 3: here with John. And but we're not going to end

874
00:47:47,196 --> 00:47:49,996
Speaker 3: on my questions. Different thing I forgot to tell you

875
00:47:49,996 --> 00:47:51,556
Speaker 3: at the top of the show was that we're going

876
00:47:51,636 --> 00:47:54,316
Speaker 3: to hear from you. You all have submitted questions in advance,

877
00:47:54,756 --> 00:47:57,236
Speaker 3: and I and John's folks have picked some of the

878
00:47:57,236 --> 00:47:59,076
Speaker 3: best ones and we're going to go through those. But

879
00:47:59,196 --> 00:48:02,116
Speaker 3: this is going to be my last question, and so

880
00:48:02,436 --> 00:48:05,036
Speaker 3: I wanted to end in the most nerified way possible.

881
00:48:05,876 --> 00:48:12,836
Speaker 3: I want to not forget to be awesome. Uh, come on,

882
00:48:13,036 --> 00:48:17,436
Speaker 3: you've got folks, this is a problem. As you know,

883
00:48:17,596 --> 00:48:19,236
Speaker 3: it can be easy to forget to be awesome when

884
00:48:19,276 --> 00:48:22,036
Speaker 3: we're tackling hard topics, when it feels like the world

885
00:48:22,076 --> 00:48:25,676
Speaker 3: is falling apart. I'm curious, how are you embracing awesome

886
00:48:25,716 --> 00:48:26,516
Speaker 3: these days?

887
00:48:27,756 --> 00:48:30,556
Speaker 2: Well, we talk about decreasing world suck and we talk

888
00:48:30,556 --> 00:48:33,356
Speaker 2: about increasing world awesome, and I think they're both important.

889
00:48:33,396 --> 00:48:36,036
Speaker 2: I think it's important to try to increase the overall

890
00:48:36,076 --> 00:48:39,156
Speaker 2: worldwide level of awesome. You know what I've been doing recently,

891
00:48:39,516 --> 00:48:43,516
Speaker 2: and this is ludicrous. I've been playing this video game

892
00:48:43,596 --> 00:48:50,956
Speaker 2: called Fifa. It's a soccer video game, and I play

893
00:48:50,996 --> 00:48:52,956
Speaker 2: as the team I sponsor in real life so that

894
00:48:52,996 --> 00:48:58,516
Speaker 2: I can so that I can see my logo on

895
00:48:58,596 --> 00:49:03,116
Speaker 2: the back of their shorts. It brings me great joy

896
00:49:03,116 --> 00:49:04,876
Speaker 2: to see my own logo on the back of their

897
00:49:04,916 --> 00:49:09,356
Speaker 2: shorts inside a video game, and then people pay me

898
00:49:09,556 --> 00:49:12,916
Speaker 2: to watch this ridiculousness. I'm not good at this game.

899
00:49:13,396 --> 00:49:16,076
Speaker 2: I actually I did a sports podcast yesterday and this

900
00:49:16,156 --> 00:49:17,716
Speaker 2: guy was talking to me about it, and he said,

901
00:49:17,756 --> 00:49:21,716
Speaker 2: you're really trash at FIFA, and I was like, thank you.

902
00:49:21,796 --> 00:49:27,956
Speaker 2: I know, and and people pay me for this, and

903
00:49:27,996 --> 00:49:30,316
Speaker 2: then I use the money to buy a real life

904
00:49:30,316 --> 00:49:38,836
Speaker 2: player for my soccer team. Don't applaud this stupidity. This

905
00:49:38,956 --> 00:49:42,516
Speaker 2: is a terrible use of resources. But I did it

906
00:49:42,556 --> 00:49:46,276
Speaker 2: because it brings me a lot of joy. So yeah,

907
00:49:46,476 --> 00:49:49,356
Speaker 2: just little things like finding finding a video game you

908
00:49:49,476 --> 00:49:52,316
Speaker 2: like playing Red Dead, Redemption two, whatever. It is, just

909
00:49:52,356 --> 00:49:53,356
Speaker 2: finding some joy.

910
00:49:54,236 --> 00:49:58,716
Speaker 4: Love that. So now we're transitioning to your questions.

911
00:49:58,916 --> 00:50:01,716
Speaker 2: These are all for your question. Sorry, we can't answer

912
00:50:01,796 --> 00:50:02,316
Speaker 2: all of them.

913
00:50:02,836 --> 00:50:03,156
Speaker 4: Okay.

914
00:50:03,996 --> 00:50:08,436
Speaker 3: First one is from Olivia Marie from Birmington, New York.

915
00:50:08,716 --> 00:50:10,756
Speaker 4: Livia, you don't want ye.

916
00:50:12,436 --> 00:50:17,676
Speaker 3: Okay, this one Bighamton, thank you.

917
00:50:17,796 --> 00:50:21,036
Speaker 4: Sorry. Olivia Marie's question.

918
00:50:21,436 --> 00:50:24,076
Speaker 3: We know you now connect a lot of things to

919
00:50:24,196 --> 00:50:29,836
Speaker 3: tuberculosis because tuberculosis is everything. Can you connect tuberculosis to

920
00:50:29,916 --> 00:50:30,636
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift?

921
00:50:30,756 --> 00:50:35,316
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, hold on, I got to get on my phone.

922
00:50:35,316 --> 00:50:36,556
Speaker 2: I don't want to miss the I don't want to

923
00:50:36,556 --> 00:50:42,476
Speaker 2: mess up the lyric. She's got a lyric about tuberculosis.

924
00:50:44,916 --> 00:50:45,916
Speaker 2: Hold on, where is we?

925
00:50:45,956 --> 00:50:47,996
Speaker 3: I almost want you to sing this lyric afterwards.

926
00:50:48,036 --> 00:50:50,836
Speaker 2: I'm not going to sing it, Okay, I can't find it.

927
00:50:50,876 --> 00:50:54,636
Speaker 2: But it's something like you know, like went to the

928
00:50:54,716 --> 00:50:59,916
Speaker 2: Lake district. You know the line where the poets went

929
00:50:59,996 --> 00:51:05,756
Speaker 2: to die, the lake district where the poets went to die.

930
00:51:06,476 --> 00:51:12,076
Speaker 2: Y'all y'all heard that?

931
00:51:12,356 --> 00:51:13,556
Speaker 4: End up singing the whole audience.

932
00:51:14,836 --> 00:51:18,236
Speaker 2: That's about the British Romantic poets who all died of tuberculosis.

933
00:51:18,676 --> 00:51:20,796
Speaker 2: Legitimately it is. That's not like, it's not like a

934
00:51:20,916 --> 00:51:27,836
Speaker 2: distant connection, like she has written indirectly about TV. Thank you.

935
00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:35,036
Speaker 2: By the way, I am very grateful to my producing

936
00:51:35,036 --> 00:51:37,676
Speaker 2: partner Rosianna, who when we were reading that question backstage

937
00:51:37,716 --> 00:51:38,836
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know if I could

938
00:51:38,836 --> 00:51:42,396
Speaker 2: do it. Rosianna spun around and she was like, what

939
00:51:42,436 --> 00:51:46,676
Speaker 2: do you mean you can't do it and immediately produced

940
00:51:46,716 --> 00:51:49,716
Speaker 2: that lyric in a way that I clearly cannot.

941
00:51:52,036 --> 00:51:54,836
Speaker 3: Okay, we're like taking it down from Taylor Smith because

942
00:51:54,836 --> 00:51:55,636
Speaker 3: this is a tough one.

943
00:51:55,756 --> 00:51:58,756
Speaker 4: This is from anushre. She notes.

944
00:51:59,276 --> 00:52:02,436
Speaker 3: A newre notes I was diagnosed with spinal TB after

945
00:52:02,556 --> 00:52:04,836
Speaker 3: years of pain when I visited a doctor in India.

946
00:52:05,276 --> 00:52:07,276
Speaker 3: I had gone to dozens of doctors in the States

947
00:52:07,316 --> 00:52:07,956
Speaker 3: to no avail.

948
00:52:08,196 --> 00:52:08,476
Speaker 2: Wow.

949
00:52:09,276 --> 00:52:12,796
Speaker 3: Given the popularity of global travel, TB no longer seems

950
00:52:12,836 --> 00:52:15,996
Speaker 3: like a disease that is only localized to certain countries. Right,

951
00:52:16,396 --> 00:52:20,036
Speaker 3: how do we encourage American doctors to consider TB, especially

952
00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:22,556
Speaker 3: in its rare re forms, as a possible diagnosis.

953
00:52:22,836 --> 00:52:25,076
Speaker 2: This is such an important question, and thank you so

954
00:52:25,196 --> 00:52:28,476
Speaker 2: much for asking it. So this is a huge problem.

955
00:52:28,516 --> 00:52:31,676
Speaker 2: We have ten thousand cases of active TB in the US.

956
00:52:31,716 --> 00:52:33,996
Speaker 2: It's going up and it will go up much more now,

957
00:52:34,636 --> 00:52:37,116
Speaker 2: and yet we don't think of TV a lot of times.

958
00:52:37,796 --> 00:52:40,876
Speaker 2: Doctors they have a phrase that I think is a

959
00:52:40,956 --> 00:52:44,076
Speaker 2: very beautiful phrase. They say, we have a low index

960
00:52:44,116 --> 00:52:48,276
Speaker 2: of suspicion. Is an index of suspicion a phenomenal phrase.

961
00:52:49,316 --> 00:52:54,236
Speaker 2: I have a very high index of suspicion with almost everything.

962
00:52:56,076 --> 00:52:58,076
Speaker 2: But they say they have a low index of suspicion

963
00:52:58,116 --> 00:53:00,836
Speaker 2: with tuberculosis, you know. And they say, like, oh, when

964
00:53:00,876 --> 00:53:04,756
Speaker 2: you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras. And I

965
00:53:04,876 --> 00:53:07,876
Speaker 2: understand that. But we have quite a lot of TV here,

966
00:53:07,916 --> 00:53:10,596
Speaker 2: and so, you know, the public health officials that I've

967
00:53:10,596 --> 00:53:13,756
Speaker 2: talked to are always trying to educate the doctors and

968
00:53:13,836 --> 00:53:18,516
Speaker 2: nurses and communities that tuberculosis is a diagnosis we should

969
00:53:18,556 --> 00:53:23,356
Speaker 2: be thinking about, including tuberculosis with bone involvement like you had,

970
00:53:23,396 --> 00:53:26,396
Speaker 2: which I know can be unbelievably painful. I mean, I've

971
00:53:26,436 --> 00:53:28,596
Speaker 2: spoken to people who described that pain to me in

972
00:53:28,636 --> 00:53:31,316
Speaker 2: ways that just made me shudder. And so I'm so

973
00:53:31,356 --> 00:53:33,796
Speaker 2: sorry that you had to go through that, so grateful

974
00:53:33,796 --> 00:53:35,636
Speaker 2: that you were eventually able to be diagnosed. But it

975
00:53:35,636 --> 00:53:38,956
Speaker 2: doesn't surprise me that you were ultimately diagnosed in India,

976
00:53:39,276 --> 00:53:41,956
Speaker 2: where there's lots of tuberculosis, where folks have a high

977
00:53:41,996 --> 00:53:45,476
Speaker 2: index of suspicion, rather than in the United States. But

978
00:53:45,516 --> 00:53:47,756
Speaker 2: it is something that we need to work on with

979
00:53:47,836 --> 00:53:51,076
Speaker 2: our public health departments, with doctors and nurses, with our

980
00:53:51,076 --> 00:53:53,876
Speaker 2: hospital systems, to remind them to think of TB when

981
00:53:53,876 --> 00:53:56,356
Speaker 2: they're thinking when they're hearing from their patients.

982
00:53:56,956 --> 00:53:58,636
Speaker 3: It also feels like if we're doing that more in

983
00:53:58,676 --> 00:54:01,196
Speaker 3: the US, it just turns TV into more of a

984
00:54:01,236 --> 00:54:04,596
Speaker 3: conversation here, which hopefully can get people to care about

985
00:54:04,596 --> 00:54:05,476
Speaker 3: it worldwide too.

986
00:54:05,596 --> 00:54:07,716
Speaker 2: Absolutely all right.

987
00:54:07,796 --> 00:54:10,516
Speaker 4: Here's one from from New York City.

988
00:54:11,116 --> 00:54:15,556
Speaker 3: Is there a story graph Buddy read for Everything's tomerculosis?

989
00:54:15,876 --> 00:54:16,836
Speaker 4: Should we create one?

990
00:54:17,516 --> 00:54:17,596
Speaker 5: No?

991
00:54:17,876 --> 00:54:21,596
Speaker 2: And yes, I'm in totally What did you think I

992
00:54:21,636 --> 00:54:25,476
Speaker 2: was going to say, like, no, don't read this book

993
00:54:25,516 --> 00:54:30,396
Speaker 2: in community they would bum me out. No, please read

994
00:54:30,436 --> 00:54:33,036
Speaker 2: it in community. Incredible. The best way to read is

995
00:54:33,076 --> 00:54:37,436
Speaker 2: to have conversations. I married a person from a book club.

996
00:54:38,316 --> 00:54:42,436
Speaker 2: We were in a two person book club, and we

997
00:54:42,476 --> 00:54:44,996
Speaker 2: had no idea that we were interested in each other.

998
00:54:45,596 --> 00:54:47,596
Speaker 2: We thought it was totally normal to start a two

999
00:54:47,676 --> 00:54:51,516
Speaker 2: person book club to read books together and then to

1000
00:54:51,596 --> 00:54:55,476
Speaker 2: meet and discuss those books over drinks. We thought that

1001
00:54:55,596 --> 00:55:00,356
Speaker 2: was just a completely platonic thing. And then one day

1002
00:55:00,436 --> 00:55:07,916
Speaker 2: I was like, am I in love? We both highlighted,

1003
00:55:07,916 --> 00:55:10,916
Speaker 2: you want to hear something really cute. We both highlighted

1004
00:55:10,916 --> 00:55:14,396
Speaker 2: the same passage in a Philip Roth book, and the

1005
00:55:14,436 --> 00:55:17,676
Speaker 2: passage was the thing isn't owning the person. The thing

1006
00:55:17,756 --> 00:55:22,036
Speaker 2: is having another contender in the room with you. And

1007
00:55:22,116 --> 00:55:32,476
Speaker 2: Sarah has always been that contender in the room.

1008
00:55:32,756 --> 00:55:34,916
Speaker 3: That is acused thing ever, And I don't think you

1009
00:55:34,916 --> 00:55:35,836
Speaker 3: thought you were going to get dating.

1010
00:55:35,836 --> 00:55:38,076
Speaker 4: A vice from John Green on stage.

1011
00:55:37,796 --> 00:55:40,996
Speaker 2: Today, start a two person book club. That's my advice.

1012
00:55:42,516 --> 00:55:43,756
Speaker 4: I mean, apparently it worked.

1013
00:55:43,836 --> 00:55:44,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, it worked.

1014
00:55:44,676 --> 00:55:46,916
Speaker 3: And make sure you share each other's highlights in the books.

1015
00:55:46,956 --> 00:55:49,636
Speaker 3: You can do it with really good book here. But

1016
00:55:49,676 --> 00:55:52,276
Speaker 3: since you're getting personal, I'll jump to this question. This

1017
00:55:52,316 --> 00:55:55,156
Speaker 3: is one from Ellen Stearns from Large Bart, New York.

1018
00:55:55,956 --> 00:55:57,996
Speaker 3: How has being a parent changed.

1019
00:55:57,716 --> 00:55:59,596
Speaker 4: You as a writer so much?

1020
00:56:00,676 --> 00:56:05,756
Speaker 2: For one thing, it slowed me down, but no, it's

1021
00:56:05,836 --> 00:56:07,796
Speaker 2: changed it so much. I could never have written The

1022
00:56:07,836 --> 00:56:09,596
Speaker 2: Fault in Our Stars or Turtles all the Way Down

1023
00:56:09,636 --> 00:56:12,996
Speaker 2: without Henry and Alice because with The Fault Nar Stars,

1024
00:56:13,396 --> 00:56:17,836
Speaker 2: you know, having kids helped me to understand this deep

1025
00:56:17,876 --> 00:56:21,276
Speaker 2: fundamental truth about love, which is that love is stronger

1026
00:56:21,316 --> 00:56:26,036
Speaker 2: than death, Love survives death. As long as Henry and

1027
00:56:26,116 --> 00:56:29,436
Speaker 2: Alice or I am alive, I will be their dad

1028
00:56:29,596 --> 00:56:33,836
Speaker 2: and they will be my kids. And so love is

1029
00:56:33,836 --> 00:56:36,556
Speaker 2: stronger than death. And understanding that made it possible for

1030
00:56:36,556 --> 00:56:38,236
Speaker 2: me to write The Fault Nar Stars, I think, and

1031
00:56:38,276 --> 00:56:40,516
Speaker 2: I never knew that until I was a parent myself.

1032
00:56:42,316 --> 00:56:45,236
Speaker 2: And then with Turtles all the Way Down, they helped

1033
00:56:45,236 --> 00:56:48,636
Speaker 2: me because they helped me get better. They helped me,

1034
00:56:49,756 --> 00:56:50,956
Speaker 2: they helped me get better every day.

1035
00:56:58,596 --> 00:56:59,916
Speaker 3: I want to do a fall up on that one

1036
00:56:59,956 --> 00:57:03,396
Speaker 3: you mentioned, Fauldnar Stars, Turtles all the Way Down. Curious

1037
00:57:03,396 --> 00:57:05,716
Speaker 3: how being a parent helped you with this book. You

1038
00:57:05,836 --> 00:57:08,996
Speaker 3: shared the passage that one of the things that brought

1039
00:57:08,996 --> 00:57:11,316
Speaker 3: you to chat with Henry is that you know you shared.

1040
00:57:11,076 --> 00:57:11,876
Speaker 4: A name with your son.

1041
00:57:12,556 --> 00:57:14,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd never thought about that, but that's true, Henry.

1042
00:57:14,756 --> 00:57:16,716
Speaker 2: If it weren't for you, they'd probably, you know, everything

1043
00:57:16,796 --> 00:57:20,916
Speaker 2: is tuberculosis or if we'd named you Atticus as we

1044
00:57:20,996 --> 00:57:26,636
Speaker 2: thought about, might not exist. Man, that's so weird. Life

1045
00:57:26,716 --> 00:57:27,436
Speaker 2: is so weird.

1046
00:57:29,956 --> 00:57:33,356
Speaker 3: So here's another cultural one. This one's from Molly from

1047
00:57:33,476 --> 00:57:38,196
Speaker 3: Jersey City. If Moulain Rouge was more realistic, would Christian

1048
00:57:38,276 --> 00:57:40,076
Speaker 3: have caught TV from satim?

1049
00:57:40,556 --> 00:57:45,676
Speaker 2: I don't know, not necessarily. I mean, we forget. How

1050
00:57:45,756 --> 00:57:49,436
Speaker 2: long does that the whole thing take place? Like five days?

1051
00:57:49,596 --> 00:57:51,876
Speaker 4: Like it's like a two hour show.

1052
00:57:51,956 --> 00:57:54,756
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild though, like a like a lot happens,

1053
00:57:54,756 --> 00:57:57,276
Speaker 2: but like it all takes place over the course of

1054
00:57:57,276 --> 00:57:59,796
Speaker 2: the development of one show. Maybe it's like six weeks.

1055
00:57:59,836 --> 00:58:02,716
Speaker 2: I don't she gets sick. Very It's not a super

1056
00:58:02,756 --> 00:58:07,556
Speaker 2: realistic portrayal of tuberculosis. There are realistic portrayals of tuberculosis

1057
00:58:07,556 --> 00:58:09,316
Speaker 2: and media, but that is not, in my opinion, and

1058
00:58:09,396 --> 00:58:12,276
Speaker 2: really one of them. What's your favorite Red Dead Redemption

1059
00:58:12,356 --> 00:58:18,636
Speaker 2: to the video game? It's very realistic, Okay, I just have.

1060
00:58:18,636 --> 00:58:20,356
Speaker 4: To channel Connor from Brooklyn.

1061
00:58:20,476 --> 00:58:22,076
Speaker 3: I don't know if you were shuting your listening to this,

1062
00:58:22,516 --> 00:58:25,996
Speaker 3: but you actually wrote a question about red Dead redemption too,

1063
00:58:26,036 --> 00:58:27,796
Speaker 3: so I'm gonna read I'm going to read that one.

1064
00:58:28,516 --> 00:58:31,476
Speaker 3: Connor notes most of what I know about tuberculosis comes

1065
00:58:31,476 --> 00:58:32,676
Speaker 3: from the video game.

1066
00:58:34,196 --> 00:58:34,716
Speaker 4: Correct.

1067
00:58:34,996 --> 00:58:38,236
Speaker 3: I was wondering if you've ever played that game, SEW,

1068
00:58:39,636 --> 00:58:41,356
Speaker 3: and if so, what do you think about his portrayal

1069
00:58:41,396 --> 00:58:41,956
Speaker 3: of the deceased.

1070
00:58:42,076 --> 00:58:45,436
Speaker 2: I thought it was great. I thought I did a

1071
00:58:45,436 --> 00:58:49,276
Speaker 2: great job. He gets six slowly over time. This is

1072
00:58:49,276 --> 00:58:52,556
Speaker 2: a spoiler for anybody hasn't played this video game, but

1073
00:58:52,596 --> 00:58:54,556
Speaker 2: not that much of a spoiler. It's fun and it's

1074
00:58:54,596 --> 00:58:58,396
Speaker 2: a really fun video game. You have to kill a

1075
00:58:58,396 --> 00:59:02,356
Speaker 2: lot of people, which I was trying to play with

1076
00:59:02,396 --> 00:59:03,636
Speaker 2: my son, and I was like, is there a way

1077
00:59:03,676 --> 00:59:05,156
Speaker 2: for us not to kill so many people?

1078
00:59:06,036 --> 00:59:06,116
Speaker 4: Like?

1079
00:59:06,196 --> 00:59:10,436
Speaker 2: Can we just sort of negotiate? Seems to go straight

1080
00:59:10,476 --> 00:59:13,996
Speaker 2: to violence every time you can ever have a conversation

1081
00:59:14,036 --> 00:59:16,236
Speaker 2: where you're like, listen, wouldn't this be better if you

1082
00:59:16,436 --> 00:59:18,716
Speaker 2: just gave us half the money and kept the other half?

1083
00:59:19,356 --> 00:59:21,836
Speaker 2: But you're an outlaw, so I guess it's part of it.

1084
00:59:22,116 --> 00:59:24,476
Speaker 2: But it's a beautiful video game. It's just like very

1085
00:59:24,556 --> 00:59:27,876
Speaker 2: visually beautiful, very engaging and engrossing, and I thought the

1086
00:59:27,916 --> 00:59:29,316
Speaker 2: portrayal of TV was quite good.

1087
00:59:30,316 --> 00:59:33,156
Speaker 4: Are there other video games that have portrayed TB?

1088
00:59:34,236 --> 00:59:36,436
Speaker 2: I only play FIFA in Red Dead Redemption two.

1089
00:59:40,036 --> 00:59:40,476
Speaker 4: Oway.

1090
00:59:42,596 --> 00:59:44,636
Speaker 3: Now we're going to get to a tough one because

1091
00:59:44,716 --> 00:59:48,516
Speaker 3: you're bringing the tough ones. Think John can take it.

1092
00:59:48,636 --> 00:59:50,876
Speaker 3: Your work in so many of your books, especially Fall

1093
00:59:50,916 --> 00:59:53,876
Speaker 3: in Our Stars, explores illness and the different ways it

1094
00:59:53,876 --> 00:59:56,316
Speaker 3: impacts our relationships with the world and with each other.

1095
00:59:57,076 --> 01:00:00,276
Speaker 3: How has your own personal relationship with illness changed since

1096
01:00:00,436 --> 01:00:01,916
Speaker 3: Hank's cancer diagnosis.

1097
01:00:02,836 --> 01:00:04,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I think it

1098
01:00:04,716 --> 01:00:07,636
Speaker 2: probably has changed in ways that I haven't totally settled

1099
01:00:07,676 --> 01:00:10,676
Speaker 2: on yet. Like it feels like Hank just had cancer,

1100
01:00:10,756 --> 01:00:12,596
Speaker 2: and I know it was a year and a half ago, but.

1101
01:00:13,276 --> 01:00:14,716
Speaker 4: Can you I mean, I'm sure all the fame.

1102
01:00:14,716 --> 01:00:17,276
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, just for the infectious disease doctors in the room.

1103
01:00:18,996 --> 01:00:22,436
Speaker 2: I keep forgetting about them through there. My brother had cancer.

1104
01:00:23,756 --> 01:00:26,036
Speaker 2: Weird thing to laugh at. No, I'm just kidding. It's

1105
01:00:26,036 --> 01:00:29,516
Speaker 2: fine to laugh at it. My brother had cancer two

1106
01:00:29,636 --> 01:00:33,596
Speaker 2: years ago. He had Hodgkin lymphoma, but we didn't know

1107
01:00:33,636 --> 01:00:35,676
Speaker 2: what kind of cancer he had for about three weeks.

1108
01:00:35,676 --> 01:00:37,876
Speaker 2: And that was the scariest three weeks of my life.

1109
01:00:39,156 --> 01:00:41,916
Speaker 2: We thought it might be a metastasist from another site

1110
01:00:42,556 --> 01:00:44,956
Speaker 2: or another kind of lymphoma that was much more serious,

1111
01:00:45,716 --> 01:00:47,836
Speaker 2: and in the end he had this very treatable, very

1112
01:00:47,876 --> 01:00:52,956
Speaker 2: curable form of cancer. And it's worth noting that nobody

1113
01:00:53,036 --> 01:00:55,636
Speaker 2: ever said, I'm not sure if treating your cancer is

1114
01:00:55,716 --> 01:00:58,396
Speaker 2: cost effective, even though it cost one hundred and fifty

1115
01:00:58,396 --> 01:01:00,356
Speaker 2: times more to cure Hank's cancer than it would have

1116
01:01:00,396 --> 01:01:03,756
Speaker 2: cost to cure Henry's TV. Nobody ever said that. Nobody

1117
01:01:03,756 --> 01:01:05,596
Speaker 2: thought about that. It never came up, It was never

1118
01:01:05,636 --> 01:01:08,876
Speaker 2: a discussion. Hank got the kind of personalized, tailored treatment

1119
01:01:08,876 --> 01:01:10,756
Speaker 2: that any of us would expect and that all of

1120
01:01:10,836 --> 01:01:16,596
Speaker 2: us deserve, and as a result, he survived, and he's

1121
01:01:16,636 --> 01:01:20,436
Speaker 2: healthy today and doing great, And you know, it has

1122
01:01:20,556 --> 01:01:22,556
Speaker 2: changed the way I think about illness. It's just a

1123
01:01:22,596 --> 01:01:26,956
Speaker 2: reminder that illness often comes quickly. What does he comings say,

1124
01:01:26,996 --> 01:01:30,036
Speaker 2: spring is like a perhaps hand coming carefully out of nowhere,

1125
01:01:30,596 --> 01:01:33,236
Speaker 2: and that feeling of something coming carefully out of nowhere

1126
01:01:33,796 --> 01:01:37,956
Speaker 2: can be wondrous and also terrifying. And it was a

1127
01:01:38,036 --> 01:01:43,316
Speaker 2: really hard thing for our family to go through. But

1128
01:01:43,436 --> 01:01:47,036
Speaker 2: Hank was was very well supported throughout, not just by us,

1129
01:01:47,076 --> 01:01:49,636
Speaker 2: but also by so many people. And i'matologized if I

1130
01:01:49,676 --> 01:01:52,076
Speaker 2: get emotional, but by so many people in this community

1131
01:01:52,116 --> 01:01:54,956
Speaker 2: it made a huge difference for his ability to get

1132
01:01:54,996 --> 01:01:55,316
Speaker 2: through that.

1133
01:02:05,956 --> 01:02:07,636
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it just speaks to the power

1134
01:02:07,876 --> 01:02:10,796
Speaker 3: of community and ways you don't even expect, to the

1135
01:02:10,916 --> 01:02:13,996
Speaker 3: power of like generosity in reaching out. I'm sure those

1136
01:02:13,996 --> 01:02:15,756
Speaker 3: of you who were in the audience and said good

1137
01:02:15,796 --> 01:02:18,396
Speaker 3: things about Hank helped Johann to hang out during this time,

1138
01:02:18,476 --> 01:02:21,316
Speaker 3: you probably didn't maybe realize how much it was affecting

1139
01:02:21,356 --> 01:02:21,876
Speaker 3: both of them.

1140
01:02:21,956 --> 01:02:24,436
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you probably didn't know like how much

1141
01:02:24,476 --> 01:02:28,436
Speaker 2: your comments mattered and how much your outreach mattered and

1142
01:02:28,636 --> 01:02:32,076
Speaker 2: little gifts of all forms. But it really did matter,

1143
01:02:32,196 --> 01:02:36,396
Speaker 2: you know. It was really overwhelming. I remember when Hank

1144
01:02:36,436 --> 01:02:37,956
Speaker 2: told me that he was going to I was like,

1145
01:02:38,596 --> 01:02:40,796
Speaker 2: don't talk about it, just you know, you don't have

1146
01:02:40,836 --> 01:02:42,276
Speaker 2: to talk about it. Don't feel like you have to

1147
01:02:42,276 --> 01:02:43,716
Speaker 2: talk about it, and he was like, I think I

1148
01:02:43,756 --> 01:02:47,676
Speaker 2: want to, And then he texted me guaranteed one out

1149
01:02:47,676 --> 01:02:53,076
Speaker 2: of ten video meant that he knew he was going

1150
01:02:53,156 --> 01:02:58,876
Speaker 2: to get a lot of views, which he did. That's

1151
01:02:58,876 --> 01:03:01,956
Speaker 2: a reminder though, that like even amid darkness, we can

1152
01:03:01,996 --> 01:03:04,676
Speaker 2: be very funny. Like that's a great example to me

1153
01:03:04,756 --> 01:03:08,076
Speaker 2: of like being funny amid everything, like finding ways to

1154
01:03:08,196 --> 01:03:11,596
Speaker 2: still be because we're still fully human. You don't stop

1155
01:03:11,676 --> 01:03:14,716
Speaker 2: being a person when you get really sick. That's really

1156
01:03:14,756 --> 01:03:22,156
Speaker 2: important to understand. So, yeah, he's doing great, and it

1157
01:03:22,196 --> 01:03:24,316
Speaker 2: has definitely changed the way I think, not just about

1158
01:03:24,316 --> 01:03:26,676
Speaker 2: illness but about everything. It's just a reminder of the

1159
01:03:26,716 --> 01:03:29,116
Speaker 2: precarity of all things. You know, we're only here for

1160
01:03:29,156 --> 01:03:29,796
Speaker 2: a little while.

1161
01:03:30,276 --> 01:03:32,196
Speaker 3: It was also really a theme in the book you

1162
01:03:32,236 --> 01:03:35,276
Speaker 3: know you mentioned no one ever asked if Hank's cancer

1163
01:03:35,436 --> 01:03:39,356
Speaker 3: treatment was cost effective. These may come out a final

1164
01:03:39,396 --> 01:03:41,916
Speaker 3: sort of happiness question, which is like, there's a lot

1165
01:03:41,956 --> 01:03:44,156
Speaker 3: in this book to get angry about, to get pissed

1166
01:03:44,196 --> 01:03:44,716
Speaker 3: off about.

1167
01:03:45,476 --> 01:03:46,996
Speaker 4: How do we channel that appropriately?

1168
01:03:47,796 --> 01:03:49,876
Speaker 2: I think we have to channel it, like you said earlier,

1169
01:03:49,916 --> 01:03:53,716
Speaker 2: into action and community, into working together to try to

1170
01:03:53,756 --> 01:03:54,876
Speaker 2: make the world suck less.

1171
01:03:56,156 --> 01:03:58,676
Speaker 4: It all goes back to less suck, more awesome.

1172
01:03:58,796 --> 01:04:01,916
Speaker 3: I think here's the last question I have from the audience,

1173
01:04:02,076 --> 01:04:05,356
Speaker 3: and it's funny. It's going back to us being here

1174
01:04:05,356 --> 01:04:07,356
Speaker 3: in New York. I think the organizers really wants to

1175
01:04:07,396 --> 01:04:10,556
Speaker 3: pick a very New Yorky question. John's last question, but

1176
01:04:10,596 --> 01:04:14,396
Speaker 3: it's actually a question from Alana Harris, who's from Tulsa, Oklahoma.

1177
01:04:14,556 --> 01:04:17,556
Speaker 2: Wow, and she makes for coming all this way.

1178
01:04:17,756 --> 01:04:21,556
Speaker 3: She kindly points out Tulsa, Oklahoma parentheses the capital of

1179
01:04:21,596 --> 01:04:25,556
Speaker 3: Oklahoma Solas Florence.

1180
01:04:25,556 --> 01:04:29,076
Speaker 2: Today it is everybody knows that.

1181
01:04:29,556 --> 01:04:31,796
Speaker 3: Here's what Alanna says. She says, Hi, John, you spent

1182
01:04:31,876 --> 01:04:36,116
Speaker 3: some time living as a young artist. You spent some

1183
01:04:36,196 --> 01:04:38,356
Speaker 3: time as young artists living in New York City. Do

1184
01:04:38,396 --> 01:04:41,076
Speaker 3: you have a favorite police, a favorite piece of advice

1185
01:04:41,156 --> 01:04:44,116
Speaker 3: you received during that season of your life? And or

1186
01:04:44,156 --> 01:04:46,236
Speaker 3: do you have any hindsight to offer to the new

1187
01:04:46,316 --> 01:04:49,036
Speaker 3: generation moving to New York City for careers in the arts.

1188
01:04:53,356 --> 01:04:57,236
Speaker 2: Get a roommate, maybe five.

1189
01:04:59,676 --> 01:04:59,756
Speaker 5: No.

1190
01:04:59,996 --> 01:05:03,076
Speaker 2: I think the best piece of advice I received during

1191
01:05:03,076 --> 01:05:05,756
Speaker 2: that time actually came from my editor, Julie strass Gable,

1192
01:05:06,196 --> 01:05:15,156
Speaker 2: who's here, who's been my editor for twenty two years,

1193
01:05:15,196 --> 01:05:19,196
Speaker 2: since two years before Looking for Alaska was published. And

1194
01:05:20,196 --> 01:05:23,316
Speaker 2: when I was living here, I was writing paper Towns,

1195
01:05:23,356 --> 01:05:27,276
Speaker 2: and I remember Julie said to me, you're twenty nine.

1196
01:05:27,516 --> 01:05:29,956
Speaker 2: You can't act like a little deer in headlights anymore.

1197
01:05:31,556 --> 01:05:35,236
Speaker 2: That was really good advice because I was still acting

1198
01:05:35,276 --> 01:05:37,356
Speaker 2: like I was twenty two, you know, like I don't

1199
01:05:37,356 --> 01:05:41,236
Speaker 2: know anything. I'm just a little boy, you know. I'm

1200
01:05:41,236 --> 01:05:43,956
Speaker 2: just trying to make my way in the world. And

1201
01:05:44,756 --> 01:05:46,276
Speaker 2: that's one thing that comes to mind. The other thing

1202
01:05:46,276 --> 01:05:48,076
Speaker 2: that comes to mind is another friend who's here at tonight,

1203
01:05:48,116 --> 01:05:56,116
Speaker 2: Marian Johnson, the great writer. I was writing a book

1204
01:05:56,156 --> 01:05:58,316
Speaker 2: with Marian Johnson. She was writing Sweet Scarlet. I was

1205
01:05:58,316 --> 01:06:00,716
Speaker 2: writing Paper Towns. Were sitting across the table from each other,

1206
01:06:00,796 --> 01:06:05,156
Speaker 2: and I was crying. She said, you know, you don't

1207
01:06:05,156 --> 01:06:10,716
Speaker 2: have to feel everything that they feel. It's really good advice.

1208
01:06:15,436 --> 01:06:18,236
Speaker 4: Right. Well, that was our last question.

1209
01:06:18,676 --> 01:06:21,036
Speaker 3: I want to end with another thing we know boose happiness,

1210
01:06:21,076 --> 01:06:24,836
Speaker 3: which is gratitude when I do this without trying to cry.

1211
01:06:26,076 --> 01:06:29,556
Speaker 3: But John thank you for bringing to light news suck

1212
01:06:29,596 --> 01:06:33,156
Speaker 3: that I didn't know about but found incredibly curious and

1213
01:06:33,276 --> 01:06:39,316
Speaker 3: incredibly hopeful. Oddly, Thanks for giving me hope in moments

1214
01:06:39,316 --> 01:06:41,876
Speaker 3: where I really needed it. And thanks for your curiosity,

1215
01:06:41,996 --> 01:06:45,156
Speaker 3: your courage, your kindness, and all your books keep them coming.

1216
01:06:45,276 --> 01:06:54,196
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, doctor Roy Santos, everybody, thanks one

1217
01:06:54,236 --> 01:07:05,156
Speaker 2: more time for doctor Wrri. Okay, I forgot. I have

1218
01:07:05,196 --> 01:07:11,716
Speaker 2: a mic over there. It's okay. So we're nearing the

1219
01:07:11,796 --> 01:07:14,676
Speaker 2: end of our time together tonight, But I don't blame

1220
01:07:14,716 --> 01:07:17,156
Speaker 2: you if you feel like we're also nearing the end

1221
01:07:17,156 --> 01:07:22,476
Speaker 2: of our time. In a more general sense, you may feel,

1222
01:07:22,516 --> 01:07:24,756
Speaker 2: as I sometimes do of late, that the world is

1223
01:07:24,756 --> 01:07:28,516
Speaker 2: a little bit ending. Societal collapse is in the air,

1224
01:07:28,876 --> 01:07:38,636
Speaker 2: noted theologian Timothy Chalomeay. Recently, he really said that he's

1225
01:07:38,636 --> 01:07:43,516
Speaker 2: so beautiful, and he's so pithy. We know that the

1226
01:07:43,516 --> 01:07:46,396
Speaker 2: world will end. It will end for each of us,

1227
01:07:46,476 --> 01:07:50,316
Speaker 2: for all of us, for our planet, but not today,

1228
01:07:50,516 --> 01:07:54,716
Speaker 2: not yet. My friend Henry loves the verbs and courage

1229
01:07:54,756 --> 01:07:58,036
Speaker 2: and discourage, and right now I confess that I am

1230
01:07:58,196 --> 01:08:01,676
Speaker 2: very discouraged. I feel that my courage is being dragged

1231
01:08:01,716 --> 01:08:04,956
Speaker 2: down by all sorts of forces, especially by those who

1232
01:08:05,076 --> 01:08:07,596
Speaker 2: argue or act as if some human lives are more

1233
01:08:07,676 --> 01:08:11,636
Speaker 2: valuable than others. How can we respond hopefully to a

1234
01:08:11,716 --> 01:08:16,276
Speaker 2: moment where hope does not feel rewarded or justified. How

1235
01:08:16,276 --> 01:08:19,156
Speaker 2: can we imagine better worlds when so many power structures

1236
01:08:19,156 --> 01:08:22,756
Speaker 2: seem intent upon making worse ones? I mean, one recent

1237
01:08:22,876 --> 01:08:25,956
Speaker 2: estimate holds that, as I mentioned earlier, cutting all US

1238
01:08:25,996 --> 01:08:29,916
Speaker 2: related tuberculosis funding will result in three million more cases

1239
01:08:29,956 --> 01:08:33,076
Speaker 2: of TB every year. It's easy to feel that this

1240
01:08:33,116 --> 01:08:35,556
Speaker 2: is the end of history, and I don't blame you

1241
01:08:35,836 --> 01:08:39,356
Speaker 2: if you feel it. There's a dread about our historical moment,

1242
01:08:39,916 --> 01:08:43,556
Speaker 2: a general feeling that horror is here and worse is coming.

1243
01:08:44,196 --> 01:08:47,356
Speaker 2: And I feel that too. I mean, why are we

1244
01:08:47,436 --> 01:08:51,876
Speaker 2: even here just to suffer, just to worry? Sometimes it

1245
01:08:51,876 --> 01:08:55,036
Speaker 2: feels that way, but I think we are in this

1246
01:08:55,156 --> 01:08:58,556
Speaker 2: not yet. We are here to be with each other

1247
01:08:58,876 --> 01:09:02,116
Speaker 2: in the deepest sense, to help others feel less alone,

1248
01:09:02,636 --> 01:09:06,876
Speaker 2: and to allow ourselves to help us feel less alone.

1249
01:09:07,396 --> 01:09:09,596
Speaker 2: I believe we are here to accompany each other through

1250
01:09:09,636 --> 01:09:13,636
Speaker 2: the joys and travails of humanness, through the wonder and

1251
01:09:13,876 --> 01:09:17,316
Speaker 2: the precaarity. We do not live at the end of history.

1252
01:09:17,876 --> 01:09:21,516
Speaker 2: We live in the middle of history. I argue in

1253
01:09:21,516 --> 01:09:23,676
Speaker 2: the book that we're products of history, but we are

1254
01:09:23,716 --> 01:09:27,876
Speaker 2: also ourselves historical forces, and together we can change the

1255
01:09:28,076 --> 01:09:32,356
Speaker 2: arc of our shared story. I've seen that happen. The

1256
01:09:32,436 --> 01:09:36,916
Speaker 2: year I graduated from high school, twelve million children died

1257
01:09:36,996 --> 01:09:39,836
Speaker 2: under the age of five, and last year fewer than

1258
01:09:39,916 --> 01:09:44,436
Speaker 2: five million did. That progress wasn't natural or inevitable. It

1259
01:09:44,556 --> 01:09:48,196
Speaker 2: happened because millions of people, billions if you count all

1260
01:09:48,236 --> 01:09:51,676
Speaker 2: the taxpayers who contributed to it, work together to make

1261
01:09:51,716 --> 01:09:56,036
Speaker 2: the world safer for children. And that is my hope.

1262
01:09:56,076 --> 01:09:58,956
Speaker 2: I know that today feels like the last day, the

1263
01:09:59,116 --> 01:10:01,916
Speaker 2: end of the story, because it's the last one we've

1264
01:10:01,956 --> 01:10:05,836
Speaker 2: lived through so far. But today is not the end

1265
01:10:05,876 --> 01:10:08,956
Speaker 2: of the story. Today is the middle of the story,

1266
01:10:09,476 --> 01:10:12,676
Speaker 2: and it falls to us to fight for a better end.

1267
01:10:13,876 --> 01:10:16,396
Speaker 2: My friend Amy Cross Rosenthal, who died of cancer a

1268
01:10:16,436 --> 01:10:19,756
Speaker 2: few years ago, knew this better than anyone I've ever met.

1269
01:10:20,196 --> 01:10:22,476
Speaker 2: Amy used to ask people to sing an old song

1270
01:10:22,516 --> 01:10:24,956
Speaker 2: from World War One, sung to the tune of that

1271
01:10:24,996 --> 01:10:28,476
Speaker 2: New Year's Eve song ald Lang Zone, British soldiers in

1272
01:10:28,516 --> 01:10:32,396
Speaker 2: the trenches, horrified by the pointlessness of war, would sing

1273
01:10:32,716 --> 01:10:39,516
Speaker 2: we're here because we're here, because we're here, because we're here,

1274
01:10:40,636 --> 01:10:43,236
Speaker 2: and Amy changed the meaning of that song without ever

1275
01:10:43,316 --> 01:10:46,116
Speaker 2: changing the words. She turned it into a kind of

1276
01:10:46,196 --> 01:10:49,356
Speaker 2: battle cry for hope. It's true that we can't say

1277
01:10:49,356 --> 01:10:52,596
Speaker 2: with certainty why we are here, but we can nonetheless

1278
01:10:52,636 --> 01:10:58,956
Speaker 2: celebrate being here, especially being here together in community, because

1279
01:10:58,996 --> 01:11:02,436
Speaker 2: that song, when sung together, takes on an entirely different

1280
01:11:02,556 --> 01:11:06,436
Speaker 2: meaning at least for me, and if you'll indulge me,

1281
01:11:06,596 --> 01:11:10,156
Speaker 2: I'd like to sing it together once now, hopefully with

1282
01:11:10,396 --> 01:11:11,676
Speaker 2: doctor Warri Santos.

1283
01:11:14,636 --> 01:11:23,116
Speaker 5: We're here because we're here, because we're here, because we're here.

1284
01:11:23,876 --> 01:11:33,396
Speaker 5: We're here because we're here, because we're here, because we're here.

1285
01:11:34,636 --> 01:11:37,276
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here with us tonight.

1286
01:11:38,236 --> 01:11:38,596
Speaker 2: Thank you,