WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 24 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.720 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.480 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.000 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.159 there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:28.240 can make your own decisions. All right, we'll find some 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:35.280 clever way to introduce us. By then all huh, you 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:39.000 know what, I might just go with that. I will 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.400 find some clever way to introduce us. And that is 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:45.400 that is the introduction now because because I said it, Hello, 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.120 welcome to it could happen here today we are going 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:53.400 to be talking about um Internet privacy and some new 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:58.960 bills that will possibly undermine it. UM. Today I have 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:05.320 with me Stopher. Hello, Christopher, Hello, I am here. I am. 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.000 I don't know if excited is the right word, but no, 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:13.319 people are really excited to come about the show. This 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:18.440 is a this is a mild dread of the Internet. 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.520 I try because we definitely, we definitely can. Things don't 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:25.400 need to be always horrible and grim, even when you're 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.559 talking about things that aren't great. But yeah, today today 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.920 we'll be talking about some some interesting things. As per 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.679 the title of this episode will probably be related to 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.880 we are talking about the proposed earn It Act, and 0:01:37.920 --> 0:01:40.479 we'll just I'll explain what it is in the different 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.480 kind of implications that could have on how like everyone 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.080 uses the internet, um, but also affects a few specific 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:51.160 types of people in particular. So but kind of part 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.760 of this whole thing, We're gonna start off by talking 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:55.360 about something a little bit different and then to kind 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:58.840 of segue to the inn An Act. UM. So, last year, 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:03.440 Apple Company announced like a controversial plan to install photo 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:07.680 scanning software into every kind of every every device. UM. 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.600 Apple's kind of long been seen as a pro privacy company. UM. 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:14.320 In the past, they have like refused FBI demands to 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:18.960 help investigators by pass locked phones. So this this idea 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.160 on this plan to create a backdoor into the iPhone 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.959 storage system to scan for photos was kind of a 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.520 big deal coming for Apple because they were definitely, at 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:28.880 least in the past, known as a generally like out 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.160 of all of the companies, the ones that if you're 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.880 dealing with sensitive matters, Apple is generally generally the better one. 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:36.920 Now that that has become less of a case in 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:39.080 the past few years, but that was that that definitely 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.919 was the case. So when when this kind of idea 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:46.840 was announced, there was a decently sized global coalition also 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.640 formed to push back on this thing UM, and the 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.520 company did pause the plan. Now, this came at a 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.720 time that a lot of different kind of companies were 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.800 also pushing back against not safe for work materials UM's 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.440 cimically for like like like relating to the transactional money 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.919 and banks. This was you know, around the time that 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.000 only fans was flip flopping on whether they would actually 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.359 have not safe for work kind of materials as a 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:15.799 part of this kind of growing trend of like worrying 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:20.359 about UM. The term now is like child sexual abuse 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.360 materials more traditionally was it's called child pornography or you know, 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.640 so it's part of this kind of overall kind of 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:31.079 extra focus that tech companies have about being worried that 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.520 if they if someone who is doing that who is underage, 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:38.320 or if someone's being exploited who's underage, UM, you know, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.680 they could unfinancially hurt the company. So they're trying to 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:42.520 a lot lots of companies have been trying to do 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.960 this thing to prevent that legal and financial issue for happening. Now, 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.000 of course, all this really actually ends up doing is 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.520 just negatively affecting sex workers. Um. But that's that's kind 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:54.480 of a topic for a different episode because we're talking 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.520 about the inn Act more specifically and not not specifically 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.720 talking about only fans. But this was Apple's plan to 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.960 kind of scan all these photos to make sure that 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.080 that they were not you know, naked photos of and 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.480 of children. Um. Now there's a whole buch of other 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:14.120 privacy issues around that, because I mean, obviously teens do 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:15.880 take news and send them to each other and there 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.599 is really no stopping that. Um. So the idea that 0:04:19.680 --> 0:04:22.280 all these photos are getting scanned and then seen and 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.800 then like it would be the idea was that parents 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.760 would be like alerted if something was found on the 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.040 phone automatically, which means that for me, I have a 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:32.800 whole bunch of other issues with that, Like that is 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.520 a whole another kind of level, especially for queer kids, 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.200 like that is like that is a whole again, but 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.760 that that is mostly the whole whole other discussion that 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:44.280 I'm not going to talk about right now because we 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.040 are I do want to focus is focus this more 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.960 on the more on the earn at act. Um. But 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.400 so this this plan was paused, UM. But now that 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.960 may not necessarily matter actually, um, because Congress kind of 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.200 wants to force Apple's hand, along with a lot with 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:04.080 essentially every other company that allows users to store or 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:08.040 share messages or kind of really any content. Um. And 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.400 Congress is some senators and there's a bill that will 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.400 try to essentially mandate photo scanning and specific photo scanning 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:21.599 technology approved by the government. So yeah, So while Apple's 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.440 plan would have put privacy and it's the security at 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.600 risk for all of us users, the Earned Act of 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.840 compromises the security and free speech for basically everyone who 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.240 uses the Internet. Um. The bill would create serious legal 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.919 risks for businesses that host content such as messages or 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:42.280 photos of stored in the cloud, online backups, and potentially 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.599 even any kind of cloud hosting sites such as Amazon 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:50.839 Web Services, which means basically most of the Internet um 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.480 and based so have the all these company all of 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.640 these services and companies would be in serious legal risk 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.400 unless they use this government approved scanning tools. A version 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.240 of this bill was first introduced two years ago, sponsored 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.320 by Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, and Senator 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.240 Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat from Connecticut. And now, like a 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.680 lot of these other things, it is allegedly aimed at 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:18.240 tackling so called child sexual abuse material online. UM. Which 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.080 is which is a problem there is the kids definitely 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:24.719 do get exploited. UM, kids do get groomed, exploited, photos 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.760 of children do get shared online. Uh. That like that 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:31.680 that that actually is a real issue. UM. Now, a 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:33.960 lot of the ways that these tools get implemented don't 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.279 actually address that issue. And of course it doesn't actually 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.000 deal with the people that do this, like you know, 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.040 like the bad the bad people that do exploit kids. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.839 It doesn't necessarily deal with them either. That is that 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:47.080 is what they wrapped this idea as the original bills 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.000 that was introduced two years ago threatened encryption and privacy 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:53.360 features that would have actually, you know, put Americans privacy, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.839 particularly particularly the privacy of children, um, at risk. It 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.520 also got in section to thirty in ways that caused 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.359 over fifty civil rights groups to pennel letter describing the 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:07.240 potential consequences um of such things like censorship um, you know, 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.720 cramming down on free speech and the basically destruction of encryption. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.760 So when the legislation failed to advance two years ago, 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:19.520 digital Um, liberty advocates, you know, sex workers, civil rights 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:24.000 organizations all breathed a sigh of relief. But this past month, 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.360 as I record this um in twenty in February, a 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:31.160 group of lawmakers, again led by Senator Richard Bluementhal and 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:35.240 Senator Lindsay Graham reintroduced the earnet ACTUM, a slightly modified 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.480 version of it UM, and on the on the tenth 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.800 of February, the Senate to Judiciary Committee voted to advance 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:46.600 the dangerous earn It Act bill. So yeah, it is. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.680 It is. It is chugging along a bit further than 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.480 what it did than what it did last time. The 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.880 earn An Act aims to tackle the horrific criminal activity 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.920 related to child sexual abuse material by making Section to 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:02.960 thirty protections contingent on the prevention and response to such 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.200 material online. So Section to thirty shields online services like 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.720 you know commonly used social media from liability from most 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.360 user generated content. Under earn it, a Section to thirty 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.280 would be amended to enable civil claims and state criminal 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:22.400 prosecution related to child abuse materials online against platforms. Now 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.400 already this can kind of happen federally a little bit, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.040 um but it depends on how the company like responds 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.200 to it. So, but this would introduce a whole new 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.280 wave for civil claims and state claims to be filed 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.920 against companies like this. Um if if if if, if 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.720 material like this is to be found hosted on their site, 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.800 you know, including you know that that that would even 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:47.160 include if like someone who's underage operates and not safe 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.640 for work Twitter account that they probably should not be operating. 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.319 Um but this this, you know this, this could also 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.880 this could basically make the company in trouble. They can 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:59.520 fall under state claims or civil claims. So as as 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.600 a result, online services could be subject to endless litigation 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.160 under fifty different you know legal law systems you know 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.079 for all the states regarding you know, finding child sexual 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:12.720 abust material online. So the bill's proponents claim that this 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:15.280 isn't necessarily a problem for any service as long as 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.760 it is scanning the files then reporting child sexual beast 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.520 material to law enforcement. Internet companies are already required to 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:24.679 report suspected material if they come across it, and they 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.760 do report material on a massive scale that often comes 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.680 comes with a lot of mistakes. Facebook is often held 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:33.520 as a positive example by what lawmakers and law enforcement 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.080 for how much they do report such such material. But 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.800 while their new scanning techniques have produced many millions of reports, 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.439 most of them are inaccurate. Like most of them actually 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.280 aren't of miners. It's it's it's not it's not. Actually 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.200 none none of the s getting material is good because 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.080 a lot of cases, many people up into their thirties 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.959 can get often flagged and often like even non humans 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:01.079 can get flagged, like pictures of fruit, like like it's 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.600 not like it's not like, yeah, none of these scanning 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.040 tools are actually very good. Yeah, and like this is 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.000 I think, I think a thing that like, if you've 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.640 never liked had to work with a machine learning algorithm before, 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.959 I think it's difficult to understand how unbelievably bad these 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:21.480 things are. Like it's just these oh, god, like the 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:25.000 the the incomprehensible horror of trying to get a machine 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:27.080 learning algorithm to do the thing that you wanted to 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.160 do and not do the other things that you're not 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:30.960 that you don't wanted to do to like, you know, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.840 be able to tell a difference between like a particularly 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:39.040 smooth and round peach and like child's exhibuse material. You know, 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.240 you human being can do this, right. The machine cannot 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.000 and it is they it is horrifically inaccurate. You have 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.400 to do all kinds of like hacking stuff together in 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.520 order to get this stuff to work. And yeah, it's 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.400 it's it's a fiasco. A good example of this that 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:57.680 I've that I've heard before that I'm probably probably gonna 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.800 butcher this explanation, but you know that you can take, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.600 you know, a photo of a wolf, um, maybe even 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.760 three photos of a wolf, and say here this is 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:08.360 these these are photos of wolves. Um, here's it, here's 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.040 other here's here's these these other photos. Find which ones 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:13.800 are wolves, and it'll, you know, it'll it'll sort throw 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.440 the ones. So some of them have wolves, some of 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.719 them don't. Um, and it only finds one picture that 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:19.760 says this one, based on the three photos even given 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.640 me this photos is a wolf, and instead the photo 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.600 is not. The photo is of a tree. And you're like, 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:27.960 why did it tell me this is a wolf? And 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.440 the computer will answer, well, look at all, the all 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.679 of the backgrounds are the same because it's trying, it's 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.760 trying to match, like he doesn't have the same thing 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.160 that humans do. And when when all these computer algorithms 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.480 that are trying to learn to replicate and trying to 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:44.840 find these patterns, it is never perfect. So the big 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.960 thing that is people often overlook is that, yeah, specifically 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.640 with this, like with with Facebook scanning tool and the 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.240 millions of reports that that it does make. You know, 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.040 federal law enforcement will frequently use the massive number of 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.920 reports to suggest there is this giant recent up to 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:03.439 in child sexual abuse materials. But that's not because there 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.040 actually is. That's because the scanning that some companies are 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:09.440 doing is just so bad, Like it's just it's just 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.720 so accurate that it flags so many things. So like 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:15.880 in action, the new earn It Act would just pave 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.800 a massive new surveillance system run by private companies that 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.720 would roll back some of the most important privacy and 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:24.880 security features and technology used by people around the globe. Right. 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:28.320 The idea is to compel private companies to scan every 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.480 message that sent online and report violations to law enforcement, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:33.679 and it may not stop their earn An Act could 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.640 ensure anything hosted online commular like backups, websites, cloud photos, 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.040 and more, is all scanned. Now, of course, you can say, 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:42.920 I mean there is no actual true privacy online, right. 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.920 The n s A does see everything, which is basically true, 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.000 but stuff like local police departments in the FBI do 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:52.160 not have constant access to what the n s A has. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.080 It does actually like legally it does actually take some 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.040 time for that to happen. The fact that all these 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.560 private companies would be doing it for them, um, and 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.959 the fact that this would actually break encryption makes people 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.760 like the FBI, makes the local law enforcement have a 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.199 much easier time accessing what we do on the internet, 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.160 because yes, the n s A kind of does always 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.800 to see everything, but that that this actually this actually 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.360 is this actually is quite different in terms of the 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.440 accessibility of that information. And I think I think it's 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:24.679 also you know, to to to go back into one 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.640 of the sort of like encryption arguments to right, So, okay, 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.920 what once you put a backdoor into encryption? Right? Once, 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:32.120 once once you have you know, you have your system, 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:33.760 you have the encryption system, but you know now there's 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:36.079 now there's a way to access it, right because oh, well, 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:37.640 we need to access these you know, we need to 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.160 be able to decrypt this in order to see if 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.040 there's like child pornography materials on it. Right, Once that 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:47.040 backdoor exists, any anyone who finds it can use it 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.680 for anything they want. And it's it's it's it's not 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:51.280 even just that, like well we'll get into some other 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:54.080 things around encryption, but but yeah, you can continue. Yeah, 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:55.400 and you know, and I think I think this is 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.640 something that I think people don't like. The people who 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:01.480 are just to keep about this in terms of child 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:04.600 pornography don't think about which is that like I don't 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.240 know a lot like there these these kinds of backdoors, right, 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.600 like other people can find them, yes, and you know, Okay, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:14.960 now now you've just put it back to it, all 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:18.959 of the encryption, like oh hey, here's you know, like here, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.280 you're you you are. You are going to get people killed, 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.040 and you're gonna get people killed because you're going to 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.560 have people who are doing things under governments that you 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:28.920 know will will will Like you know, you're gonna have 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.760 people in mil Mart, You're gonna have people in You're 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.840 gonna have people in Egypt. You're gonna have people in 0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:37.720 Syria who like these these regimes and like these you know, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.920 private private companies right are are going are going to 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.440 sell the back doors to these regimes and they're going 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.280 to use it to hunt down, torture and kill people. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.200 And so yeah, there is there's a lot of problems 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.600 with it, especially especially how it how it kind of 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.520 addresses encryption, because the bill does try to actually have 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.200 some encryption protections, but the way they go about it, 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:03.520 of course is not is not adequate, and it even 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.720 kind of fosters it's its own negation in some ways 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.240 if you read the entire bill. So but I'll get 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.600 more into encryption in a sec because there are other 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.200 like technical issues with the way this bill is designed 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.160 and how it would be enacted. There is this sort 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.440 of benefit to having a legal material that is that 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.240 is actually exploding miners being primarily hosted on big tech 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.560 platforms because these platforms are used so much and are 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.640 mostly non restricted, so it makes catching this stuff and 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.240 reporting it actually much easier, Like it is if they're 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.360 hosted on these mainstream things, it does make seeing it 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:40.000 and reporting less difficult. So not only will this bill 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.480 make tech companies be more likely just to ban all 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.400 not safe work material in general, right, because if companies 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.560 are forced to scan and they're gonna be filing swimming 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:50.800 reports that this will this will result in a lot 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.760 a lot more companies just saying no new photos at all, 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.520 like just completely gone. Not only will this bill just 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.440 make tech companies more likely to ban all not safe 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.920 work content in general, which would be horrible for sex 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.120 workers and just a bad precedent, but yeah, they would 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:07.280 be more likely just to do that because of how 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.600 much overscanning there would be, and just a whole bunch 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:11.280 of things, so we'd create it would create too many 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.600 fears of legal repercussions. Thus, you know, that would force 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:18.320 people who distribute child porn onto more sketchy sites and 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:21.000 sites that might just refuse to scan content in general 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.080 because they're temporary hosting. But the bill could also just 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.960 to scare these bad people off of mainstream platforms and 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.760 make them voluntarily migrate to more niche and hard to 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.400 finde the corners of the Internet, making illegal content harder 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.160 to catch and take down because there will always be 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.120 weird temporary sites to host this type of thing, like 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.200 they're always there, Like these bad people will find a 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.440 way it's always like that is it is gonna always 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.280 be a problem. Um. And so in a way, it's 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.520 it is better to have these things on mainstream platforms 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.680 because reporting them and taking them down can be much easier. Um. 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.480 It's it's like it's like when people really advocate platforms 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.720 like Telegram shut down all fascist channels. Right. The thing 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.040 is is that there's a lot of benefits to having 0:17:05.040 --> 0:17:07.680 these chat rooms on Telegram because that makes them really 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.600 easy to monitor and really easy to infiltrate. UM. So 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:15.880 there's a lot worse places for fascists to organize. UM. 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.120 If you're doing it on Telegram, it's actually really easy 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.840 to watch. So it's this weird given take in terms 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.360 of in terms of where where these things happen, because 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:29.160 they are going to happen somewhere. So I now want 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.680 to talk about how specifically this bill threatens threatens online 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.080 encryption services, all right, Um, The bill would strip critical 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.119 legal protection for websites, apps, and specifically Section to thirty. 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.679 If past, it would empower many different levels of government 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.320 to make sweeping new Internet regulations. Right in, individual states 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.439 will be able to pass laws um to hold private 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.240 companies like libel um as long as they somehow relate 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:57.480 their new rules to child abuse materials, like they wible 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.600 to have a whole bunch of new rules on Internet 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:03.359 regulations if they can sift it through this lens. The 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.800 goal is to get states to pass these laws that 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.639 will punish that will punish companies when they deploy end 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.600 and encryption or offer other encryption services. This includes messaging 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.639 systems like What's Apps, Signal I Message, and as well 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.040 as web hosting like Amazon Web Services um EARN it 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:21.840 aims to spread the use of tools to scan all 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:26.679 online content against law enforcement databases like directly UM. In 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.000 a myths and Facts document distributed by the bill's proponents, 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.880 it even names a government approved software program that they 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.720 could mandate called a photo d NA, which is a 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.800 program that Microsoft made that reports directly to law enforcement databases. 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:46.280 So earn it doesn't specifically attack encryption per se UM, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.359 but that's because it doesn't need to. Like it doesn't 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:51.160 have to because of the way the bill is designed. 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:55.080 How it approaches encryption is actually a little more insidious. UM. 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.040 It allows the fact that encryption exists on the platform 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.240 itself to be used as evidence against a company in 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.280 order to find it liable for hosting child sexual abust materials, 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:09.640 so they can use the fact that encryption exists as evidence, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:14.600 which is wild, like this is this is the thing. 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.840 This is the thing that CCP does a lot like 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:18.840 with you know, like they'll they'll use they'll use the 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.400 fact that, like somebody is using a VPN for example, 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:25.840 as evidence that they're this happens constantly and and it's 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.520 It makes a lot of a lot of encryption stuff 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.040 incredibly unsafe because like you know, you show up with 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:32.919 your phone, you have signal on it, and the CCP 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:34.560 is like, well, you're this is this is this is proof. 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:35.960 We're just gonna we're gonna lock it up and throw 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.720 away the key. Yeah, and yeah. It's extremely bad. So 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.080 the result is that laws will make companies liable, um 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.120 if they don't scan and report user content for child 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.600 sexual abust materials, which they can't do unless they make 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:53.680 break encryption. You know, big companies like Apple um are 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:57.560 going to full to to protect themselves. Um, so earn 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.000 it would is like it coerces these sites and plat 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.480 forms and services to do this sort of scanning and 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.719 not just some messages but all online content encrypted or not. 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.920 Um Companies that handle online content would have to weigh 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.760 the benefit of their users securely encrypting their data content 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:15.080 against the legal risk of doing so. Um and encryption 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.240 becomes much harder when it, you know, puts the company's 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:20.920 bottom line at risk. And and and and like and 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.560 and and and. Encryption isn't just her messages, right, It's 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.080 it's not just on signal. It secures most of the Internet, 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:29.359 or at least at least a lot of it, keeping 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.359 what you do allegedly you know, private unsafe online. You 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.320 can't have a secure internet where all the content is 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:43.960 also screened because you can't haven't encryption alongside mass scanning requirements. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.320 It's just so, this isn't just an attack on encryption. 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.679 It's attack on any fund of fundamental security that the 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:55.600 Internet you know has. Yeah, and you know there's lots 0:20:55.640 --> 0:21:03.000 of like god, there are lots of extremely technical reasons 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:07.800 why this isn't extremely bad things like it's like okay, yeah, 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.400 like you you you think you think malware is bad, 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:15.159 now like God, Like, look like the things the things 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.560 that will happen, Like you you think people are stealing apes? Now, 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.159 like the things that will happen if you have to 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.359 if you have to deal with an Internet that's unencrypted 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.840 or you know, like yeah, it's an absolute horror show, 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:33.439 like if yeah, like I yeah, it's this. This is 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:35.600 a thing bad enough that like I do not have 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.640 the words to express how catastrophic this would be, because 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:40.880 it's just a fundamental structure of the Internet. It really 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:44.280 is not just for messages like the earned uh miss 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.960 and fast document also like specifically attacks Amazon for not 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.320 scanning enough of its content um and since Amazon is 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:54.720 the home of Amazon Web Services, which hosts a huge 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.680 number of websites, that implies that like the bill's aim 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.400 is to ensure that anything hosted online also gets scanned. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.199 Like like like everything the online service providers, even the 0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:08.639 smallest ones, will be compelled to scan user content with 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:12.919 government approve software like photo dona um And if earnest 0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.159 supporters succeed in getting large platforms like cloud fair and 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.840 that some web services to scan, they may not even 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:21.760 need to compel smaller websites because the government will already 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:26.439 have access to the data through the cloud platforms. So like, 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.359 as long as they get you know, these big hosting platforms, 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:31.280 they don't even like, they won't even need need to 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.080 bather with a lot of with a lot of smaller sites. 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:36.760 I think there's another thing I think that's probably worth 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:42.080 mentioning here, which is so we don't really have like 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.480 the time to fully go into this in this episode, 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.040 but like there's a lot of this sort of stuff 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:51.000 is being pushed by these incredibly right wing evangelical anti 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:54.920 porn groups and their goal is just to eliminate anything 0:22:55.040 --> 0:23:00.359 that is not like part of their sort of fundamentalist Christianity, yes, 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.439 from the internet and those people. And this is this 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:06.960 is particularly relevant to this because those people are going 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:11.320 to find a way to to to like to to 0:23:11.359 --> 0:23:15.119 bring lawsuits against these companies specifically so that they specifically 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:16.600 so they can do because this is you know, what 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:18.600 what you've done is say you've just handed them a gun. 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:21.040 Poor insides will all be taken down because they'll be 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:24.679 because they'll be facing so many endless lawsuits um like 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:27.400 only like only fans will no longer host ethical poor 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:29.560 like like none of this will have like all of 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.359 it will be taken down. No one like this will 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:36.120 this will attack sex workers to such an absurd degree. 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.520 Um it'll make base. It will make a lot of 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.920 if not most online sex work just impossible because there 0:23:41.920 --> 0:23:44.800 will be so many lawsuits always happening that companies will 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:46.960 just always ban it just because they can't they can't 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.760 risk dealing with all those legal fees. Um it's it's yeah. 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.000 And and and in the fact that state prosecutors and 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:56.160 private attorneys will be able to drag an online service 0:23:56.160 --> 0:24:00.120 provider into court over accusation that their users committed crimes 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:02.399 and then use the fact that the service chose to 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:06.560 encrypt like like chose to use encryption um at all, 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.520 as evidence against them. Is the fact that the strategy 0:24:09.600 --> 0:24:13.479 specifically allowed under earn it like makes the possibilities of 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:17.120 this type of thing just endless. Like like imagine imagine 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:20.160 like they'll be aild to take down signal so easily 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:23.719 because like it's it's it's it's wild all if they can, 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:27.240 if they can find one instance of you know, as 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.880 like as like a of of an abuser using signal 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.520 or has you signal, then basically all of signal decryption 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:36.720 will be severely threatened um because of the way that 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:40.080 legal finds will be forced onto this company. It's is 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:43.159 like specifically for stuff based like for any kind of 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.400 in any any service allowed in the States. And yeah, 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.720 it's really frustrating because you know, people including senators UM 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:53.000 who are pro earn it, say that the new tools 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:56.159 are necessary to tackle the issue of online child abuse 0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:59.399 and the and the distribution of illegal materials online. But 0:24:59.520 --> 0:25:04.480 you know, obviously, like possessing, viewing, or distributing child poorn 0:25:04.560 --> 0:25:08.000 or child sexual abust materials is already written into laws. 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:12.600 Is a serious like, it's an extremely serious crimes can do, yes, 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.800 and it has a broad framework of existing laws seeking 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:19.119 to eradicate it. Right, people could like companies can already 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:22.080 get in federal trouble if they're find if they're found 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:24.720 to continue if like you know, if stuff is found 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:26.800 and they continue to host it, or if they're going 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:29.600 if like their stated purposes to host it, like like 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.800 some of the most trouble you can get into, UM 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.440 at least at least like on the books, UM, because 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:37.840 you know you can you can look at you know, 0:25:37.920 --> 0:25:40.720 how many cops are involved with this type of thing 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:43.560 as like other than being like like like as evidence said, 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:45.560 like it doesn't like it may not get enacted upon. 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.280 Always there was there was a horrible story recently of 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.000 a teacher who sorry, this is this is this is 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:53.520 this is going to be quite graphic. UM, but of 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:55.639 a like skip ahead like a minute or two if 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:58.200 you don't want to. UM of a teacher who fed 0:25:58.320 --> 0:26:03.879 students um food containing her husband's seamen um. Her husband 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:07.320 was a cop and her and her husband again who 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:10.280 was a cop, and the also the leader of a 0:26:10.320 --> 0:26:14.840 swatch team UM had raped multiple children um as like 0:26:14.880 --> 0:26:18.200 it had and had had pictures of children UM and 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:21.159 like like both of them were doing this together. So 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:23.720 like yeah, that's like the leader of swat teams like police. 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:26.280 Like the fact that like if you if you look 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:28.440 at the people often doing this type of stuff, it's 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.520 cops a lot of the time. Like the cops raped 0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:35.399 so many um kids that that they that they arrest 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:38.359 and detain. It is shocked. Like you you can google 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:41.640 this every week and you'll find you'll find like new 0:26:41.680 --> 0:26:45.920 reports of it. It is, it is. It is horrific. UM. 0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:48.679 And you know, online service providers that have actual knowledge 0:26:48.720 --> 0:26:51.960 of an apparent or imminent violation of current laws around 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:54.800 child sexual best materials are required to report it or 0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:58.240 they will face legal trouble. UM. Yeah, like you you 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:01.080 could you can kill people and get in less trouble 0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:03.639 with the law, then then you will get if if 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.320 if you intentionally do this stuff, like there are scenarios 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:08.919 where you can kill people where you won't get in 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.239 trouble with law. There is no scenario where you do 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:15.639 you you like you you intentionally do like you intentionally 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:18.119 do this stuff where you will like unless you're a 0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:21.160 cop with like with with the legal protection of your 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:25.040 other cops won't rat you out, like yeah, or you're 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:29.320 like very very rich, yeah, like you know, unless unless 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:33.919 you have extra legal protection. Yeah, like you are fucking 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:37.399 going to vanish. So yeah, Like we already have a 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:39.400 lot of stuff to deal with this and the methods 0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:42.120 proposed by Earnest would not only chip at the last 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:45.840 semblance of privacy online, but it would all but it 0:27:45.880 --> 0:27:49.600 would arguably make actually combating real instances of online check 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:52.800 of online child abuse a lot more difficult. It would 0:27:52.840 --> 0:27:57.040 pressure distributors and abusers um into harder to find corners 0:27:57.040 --> 0:28:00.639 of the Internet that don't fall under big tech companies UM. Plus, 0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:03.520 the massive increase in content scanning would produce so many 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:06.640 false flags it would clog up any effort to find 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.800 action materials because so much stuff is gonna get flagged. Right, 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:11.720 it's gonna you're gonna get a wave of so many 0:28:11.760 --> 0:28:14.160 images that you have that you have sort sort through 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:16.560 and figure out if the people in it actually are 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:19.280 under age because a lot of people who look thirty 0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:22.600 and sorry, a lot of people that are thirty can 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:25.320 also look under age sometimes, like like with lighting with 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:27.560 ef fect like it it's it is, it will be. 0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:31.879 It's gonna it's gonna like be such a task. Um 0:28:31.960 --> 0:28:34.000 And we can only see this in effect with new 0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:37.280 scanning techniques used by Facebook. They that have produced millions 0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:40.160 of reports to law enforcement, most of them are accurate 0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.480 um And of course federal law enforcement use uses this 0:28:43.520 --> 0:28:46.760 massive number of reports produced by low quality scanning software 0:28:47.000 --> 0:28:50.440 to you know, suggest there's a huge uptick in these images. Thus, 0:28:50.440 --> 0:28:53.520 you know, armed with misleading statistics, the same law enforcement 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:57.000 groups make new demands to break encryption um or with 0:28:57.040 --> 0:28:59.640 earn it hold companies liable if they don't scan user 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:03.720 contact those kind of algorithms, right, Like you know, okay, 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.640 this this is an oversimplification, but like to to to 0:29:06.760 --> 0:29:10.680 conceptualize why this is a bad idea, like these these 0:29:10.720 --> 0:29:13.760 are these like this is the this is the same 0:29:13.800 --> 0:29:15.400 stuff that like you know how, you know how, there's 0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:18.800 there's those there's those like trending topics on Twitter, and 0:29:19.000 --> 0:29:21.320 they'll they'll they'll show you a tweet and the tweet 0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:23.640 will be like I don't know, they'll they'll they'll be 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:25.840 someone talking about a subway sandwich and it'll get like 0:29:26.440 --> 0:29:30.440 it'll show up under trains because it's the subway like this. 0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:34.320 Those are the algorithms that they want to fucking run 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:37.000 the entire Internet through. I have seen I have seen 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:41.360 some very I've seen some very erotic bell peppers. Um 0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:44.840 and like it's it's gonna like that. These things aren't 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:48.880 aren't going to be good um and like independent child 0:29:48.920 --> 0:29:52.600 protection experts are not asking for systems to read everyone's 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:56.680 private messages. Rather, they recognize that children, particularly children that 0:29:56.760 --> 0:30:00.360 might be abused or exploited, actually need encrypted in private 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:02.920 messaging just as much, if not more, than the rest 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:06.320 of us. Like no one, including the most vulnerable among us, 0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:11.520 can have privacy or security online without strong encryption. Um 0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:14.640 And the Earner Act doesn't really just target big tech. 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:18.520 What it does is it targets every individual Internet user, 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.280 treating all of us as potential criminals who deserve to 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:24.680 have every single message, photographer, document scanned and you know, 0:30:24.800 --> 0:30:30.720 compared against a government database like directly directly to law enforcement. Um. 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:33.560 And since direct government surveillance would be you know, blatantly 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:36.960 unconstitutional and promote public outrage, U earn it to use 0:30:37.000 --> 0:30:39.480 as tech companies, you know, from the largest smalls the 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.560 smallest ones as its tools to kind of bypass that 0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:47.880 constitutional like barrier um because yeah, if you, if you, 0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:49.719 if you, if you, if you hit the touch companies 0:30:49.720 --> 0:30:52.080 where it hurts, they will not allow this type of 0:30:52.080 --> 0:30:54.160 stuff at all. Like and this is also the thing 0:30:54.240 --> 0:30:55.880 you can you know, you cannot deny that this is 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.960 also just part of a larger effect to ban porn 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:01.680 um and just to ban any kind of sex work 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:03.800 online as well. Like you you cannot deny that this 0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:07.080 is this is this is definitely an ingrained part of this, 0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.400 particularly with a lot a lot of its supporters and 0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.800 of course you know Senator Lindsay Graham appealing to that 0:31:12.880 --> 0:31:16.240 side of the Republicans. This is this is a big 0:31:16.280 --> 0:31:19.200 part of just trying to you know, remove porn and 0:31:19.360 --> 0:31:22.840 remove um, you know, any not safe work material from 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:26.720 being hosted online. So the strategy is to get private 0:31:26.720 --> 0:31:29.600 companies to do the dirty work of mass surveillance. UM. 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:31.800 You know it's the same. It's the same tactic that 0:31:31.880 --> 0:31:33.840 government's try to use this year, trying to you know, 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.560 convince Apple to subvert its own encryption and scan all 0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:39.479 of its users photos. Um. It's the same strategy that 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:42.320 the that the UK law enforcement is using to convince 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:44.680 the British public to give up their privacy, having spent 0:31:45.240 --> 0:31:49.320 public money on a laughable public publicity campaign that demon 0:31:49.320 --> 0:31:52.520 as his companies that use encryption. UM. So that that's 0:31:52.560 --> 0:31:57.000 really how it's operating. UM. I do want to shout out, um, 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.520 uh the e f F for provide a lot of 0:32:00.520 --> 0:32:03.360 the kind of research that I used for compiling stuff 0:32:03.360 --> 0:32:07.000 on on this episode. UM, thank you, thank you, thank 0:32:07.040 --> 0:32:10.440 you e f F. UM you often often do good work. 0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:14.640 That's the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They focus a lot on 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:18.520 like Internet privacy issues. UM. And I do want to 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:22.360 point people to a a link tree. It is uh 0:32:22.960 --> 0:32:27.640 you know l I N K t R dot E 0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:32.200 slash stop earn it. UM. So yeah, you can find 0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:34.240 different ways to UM. You know, if you're the type 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:38.120 of person that enjoys calling representatives or something, it has 0:32:38.200 --> 0:32:40.080 it has links for that kind of thing. It has 0:32:40.120 --> 0:32:44.320 links to send you know, automated messages onto your representative 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:46.400 to vote no on the Internet Act. That has too 0:32:46.560 --> 0:32:47.760 you know if if you're a type of person that 0:32:47.840 --> 0:32:51.000 enjoys the signing petitions UM, it has it has more 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:54.320 info on what earn it is and what it does UM, 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:56.920 and a whole bunch of other stuff around, you know, 0:32:57.080 --> 0:33:00.000 organizing to help stop this bill. There's like discord channel 0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:03.200 that have people organizing to to stop this bill. UM 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:06.480 links links forward on that has info on like actions 0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:10.040 you can take. UM. So yeah, I would uh if 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.200 if you're interested in like looking for the different ways 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:15.240 that can maybe you know contribute. You know, not no 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:17.560 single person that can make an impact, but you know 0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:21.760 enough people, enough people can UM. So yeah that's link 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:25.360 tree slash stop earn It UM. And then also again 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:29.360 another shout out to the e f F. Yeah, I 0:33:29.440 --> 0:33:32.440 wanted to make say two closing things before we close 0:33:32.480 --> 0:33:36.840 this out. One if if you think that if you 0:33:36.840 --> 0:33:39.000 think that once you're handing the entire context of the 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:41.320 Internet over to the government who run through scanning all groups, 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:42.840 that the only thing they're ever going to scan for 0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:45.280 is child pornography, I have no n f D to 0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:47.680 sell you. It is a picture of a bridge. Once 0:33:47.800 --> 0:33:49.200 once you buy this n f T of the bridge, 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.680 you will own the Brooklyn Bridge Contact contact me for 0:33:51.720 --> 0:33:56.640 more details. The second thing is that, um, you know, 0:33:56.720 --> 0:34:00.239 when when we talk about like when we we talk 0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:04.719 about anti porn stuff, when we talk about how you know, 0:34:04.800 --> 0:34:07.719 the way you get around this is by banning all 0:34:08.640 --> 0:34:11.920 different work content. Right. The other thing that almost immediately 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:16.320 gets banned. It's inevitably when when when when when companies 0:34:16.480 --> 0:34:19.800 for for whatever reason, And this is true just of 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:22.520 of of companies that are trying to comply with you know, 0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:25.480 like the app store or stuff like that, like when 0:34:25.480 --> 0:34:27.640 when when whenever you get target things that target not 0:34:27.920 --> 0:34:31.799 for work content, they inevitably, inevitably without failed, target queer 0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:36.919 content content, literally nothing at all through sexuality. Because that's 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:38.400 you know, this is this is this is this has 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:41.640 always been like accusing queer people of of being child 0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:44.680 predators has been the attack line on queer people. Queer 0:34:44.719 --> 0:34:46.680 people are always on the front line of all of 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:50.440 this stuff. Yeah, they will always be the first people impacted. 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.879 They will be the first people demonized, even if even 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:55.719 if even if it's not even not sayek material if 0:34:55.800 --> 0:34:57.239 if it has if it has nothing to do with it, 0:34:57.400 --> 0:35:00.440 it will still always always be impacted more than basically 0:35:00.480 --> 0:35:03.200 anyone else. Yeah, I mean we've we've been seeing this 0:35:03.239 --> 0:35:06.520 on YouTube but constantly lots of lots of people who 0:35:06.600 --> 0:35:09.719 just you know, make trans content channels are always being 0:35:09.760 --> 0:35:13.640 banned or demonetized, yep marked as a belt content like yeah, 0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:17.160 it's it's horrifying. And if if if you want an Internet, 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:19.640 not even just if you want to Internet that has 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:21.600 like sex on it, if you want to Internet that 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:26.239 has queer people on it, right expressing themselves in in 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:30.279 in in in any way that's not like literally just 0:35:30.440 --> 0:35:33.359 it's straight person but you say queer right, if if 0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:35.799 that's a thing that you think is valuable and if 0:35:35.800 --> 0:35:38.520 you and if you think that you know it is 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:40.960 important for core people to be able to express themselves 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:44.040 for their own health and safety, Like you have to 0:35:44.040 --> 0:35:48.840 op post this, Yes you absolutely, Um, I guess what 0:35:48.960 --> 0:35:51.200 one final thing I'll add because they know someone will 0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:54.680 probably message me about it. Um. There is a slight 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:58.400 opinion piece by somebody saying that this bill would actually 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.600 let child abusers walk free because they could use the 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:05.680 fact that this bill essentially, um, you know, compels companies 0:36:05.680 --> 0:36:09.239 to do scanning software via via government like mandate because 0:36:09.239 --> 0:36:13.120 of this bill. They would that because because in their mind, 0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:16.239 this could possibly violate the Fourth Amendment to this would 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:19.759 allow abusers, um, the evidence that they was collected to 0:36:19.880 --> 0:36:23.120 prosecute abusers to become invalid in court. So this would 0:36:23.120 --> 0:36:25.240 actually also make the This would just make this would 0:36:24.960 --> 0:36:28.319 make the bill um uh you know, actually make people 0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:30.319 walk free. I do not agree with this take. I 0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:31.879 don't think that's how it would work out at all, 0:36:32.080 --> 0:36:33.880 because especially for you know, you can use this for 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:36.160 like political organizing. You can use this for a lot 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:37.560 of like you can use the same argument for a 0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:39.799 lot of cases, and it never works out that way 0:36:39.880 --> 0:36:43.719 because the government does not care about that sort of thing. Um, 0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:46.480 it's it's it's not that's not how it works. Um. 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:48.920 I mean, like these things that get violated like in 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:52.640 theory that does not know that's the way, like they 0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:58.319 illegally seized you know, ten Kazinski's you know, uh, you know, 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.400 like evidence and yeah, it doesn't it doesn't matter, like 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:04.759 that's that's that's that's that's not gonna matter. Because then 0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:06.480 this bill would be seen as a good thing because 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:09.400 it would prevent people from you know, then encryption wouldn't 0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:12.040 be necessary because then none of the evidence that people 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:15.960 would you know, would have gathered would ever be admissible 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:18.680 in court. And that is that they would never design 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:20.600 the bill like that that. That's not that's not the case. 0:37:20.719 --> 0:37:23.799 I disagree with this take. So do not send me 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:26.680 this article saying actually it's going to have this happen, 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:29.759 because I do not believe it, because this assumes that 0:37:29.760 --> 0:37:34.799 the government operates like like coherently and operates like you know, 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.000 like no, the government does does does not care no, 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:42.239 like again, like the First Amendment is superseded by traffic law, 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:46.120 like you know that you're not going to be able 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:49.799 to use this. This isn't like this will secretly let 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:52.839 abusers go free. This is not secretly a good thing 0:37:53.160 --> 0:38:01.040 because it will make all evidence inadmissible in court. Bullshit anyway, Anyway, 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:03.919 I'll give a final shout out to the link tree 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:08.360 link tree slash stop earn it um. That's l I 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:12.239 n k T dot e er slash stop earn it 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:14.960 um if you're the type of person that likes doing 0:38:14.960 --> 0:38:16.719 those types of things. And also it has like links 0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:19.640 like discord channels for other types of organizing beyond you know, 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:22.399 petitions and calling and senators and setting messages and blah 0:38:22.400 --> 0:38:27.080 blah blah blah blah. Anyway, that's the episode. UM, thank 0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:30.839 you for listening. I just thought, I just thought, this 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:32.680 is this is this is an important thing enough that 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:34.479 I haven't seen it. I have not seen enough people 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:36.440 talking about the earn It Act and the way it 0:38:36.520 --> 0:38:41.360 does seriously threatened digital privacy. And because it was approved 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.560 by the Senate Judiciary Committee to be pushed forward, um, 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.520 it is actually chugging along on the slow legal process, 0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:50.880 so it's gotten further than what it got in. So 0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:53.839 I thought it was actually worth talking about, um, you know, 0:38:53.920 --> 0:38:56.759 for privacy issues, how it affects queer people, how it 0:38:56.760 --> 0:38:59.920 affects sex workers, um, and all all that general thing. 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:03.520 So yeah, and also I wanted you know that it's 0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:05.360 very easy to feel hopefuls with this kind of stuff, 0:39:05.400 --> 0:39:09.440 but like we've beaten legislation. Like one of my one 0:39:09.440 --> 0:39:11.960 of my formative childhood experiences was when when we beat 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:15.080 when we beat SOPA and people like we can beat them. 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:17.880 It takes it takes a lot, takes a lot of mobilization, 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:21.719 but yeah, like we we we we we I know 0:39:21.800 --> 0:39:23.759 we can. I know we can beat this because we've 0:39:23.800 --> 0:39:27.359 beaten things like it before. Agreed, all right, that nothing 0:39:27.400 --> 0:39:29.120 for us today. If you want to find us on 0:39:29.160 --> 0:39:32.800 a currently more secure than what it could be Internet, 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.840 you can follow us on Twitter at cool Zone Media, 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:40.560 um and happened here pod. I think apparently Instagram too, 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:43.799 So that's cool. If you're an Instagram person, good for you, 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:46.319 because Twitter Twitter is bad. Um. You can find me 0:39:46.360 --> 0:39:50.719 on Twitter at Hungry about Tie. Um, yeah, find me 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:54.320 at at h R three You can't, you can't. Indeed 0:39:55.360 --> 0:40:15.680 that that do? Is it for us? Um? Encrypture? Hey everybody, 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:19.480 Robert Evans here? Um obviously, as I'm sure everyone is 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:23.120 being bombarded with. The war in Ukraine is in its 0:40:23.360 --> 0:40:27.080 fifth day right now, something like that. Um, we just 0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:31.120 passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more than three 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:34.080 hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those are going 0:40:34.120 --> 0:40:38.120 to be very in exact numbers, but it's it's likely 0:40:38.239 --> 0:40:40.440 to be somewhere between like fifty and a hundred thousand 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:43.839 people per day being made refugees, and it's possible that's 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:47.160 gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of the coverage 0:40:47.480 --> 0:40:51.080 that you will have seen at this point UM is 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:54.960 going to focus on heroic pieces of of of resistance, 0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:57.439 you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, throwing 0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:02.520 Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some of 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:04.880 that's going to be a propaganda, some of that A 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:07.360 decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a 0:41:07.400 --> 0:41:10.440 fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not 0:41:10.560 --> 0:41:14.400 gotten nearly as much plays the situation at the border 0:41:14.440 --> 0:41:20.840 of Ukraine in Poland UM because this refugee crisis is enormous, 0:41:20.880 --> 0:41:23.440 but it's also not sexy, and it points to a 0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:25.759 number of things that are ugly about some of the 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:28.120 stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict, including the 0:41:28.120 --> 0:41:31.800 conduct of President Zelinsky, who is I think handled himself 0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:34.359 objectively well as a wartime leader, and who is also, 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:36.240 as you'll hear in the interview that's about to follow, 0:41:36.600 --> 0:41:38.920 made some decisions that have had a catastrophic impact on 0:41:38.960 --> 0:41:42.719 people's lives. So this is an interview conducted by a journalist, 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:46.319 uh James Stout, who is working with us on this 0:41:46.360 --> 0:41:49.319 project and with another project that will be launching soon. 0:41:49.880 --> 0:41:54.360 With a person, an individual an American who was well 0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:58.040 has a couple of different passports, but with a person 0:41:58.080 --> 0:42:01.840 who was in Ukraine when the invasion began and left 0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:04.680 and eventually wound up leaving on foot with tens of 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:09.000 thousands of other people for the Polish border. So this 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:11.160 is a story of what it is like to flee 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:14.160 a country at the beginning of a war, um and 0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.279 and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians are going 0:42:17.320 --> 0:42:22.959 to be facing every single day. So please listen. Hey, manny, 0:42:23.000 --> 0:42:27.080 how are you. I'm doing well, How are you good? Good? 0:42:27.080 --> 0:42:30.799 It's ready to keep you up late and period exhausted. No, no, 0:42:30.880 --> 0:42:33.520 it's okay, it's okay. UM. I actually just arrived at 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:36.880 a new hostel in New City. UM, and I'm going 0:42:36.920 --> 0:42:38.640 to be up for a couple more hours anyway, So 0:42:38.680 --> 0:42:41.000 it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, Do you 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:44.800 mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent, and 0:42:45.239 --> 0:42:47.920 let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm I'm 0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:52.680 bringing a piece for NBC on the the refugee situation 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:56.520 that's emerging, and I'm also helping to make a podcast 0:42:56.600 --> 0:43:00.879 for I Heart Radio about a similar thing. It's okay, 0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:02.560 with you. We'll use the audio for one and then 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.239 some of your words for another. Absolutely, how is my 0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:08.759 audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's really really good 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:10.680 that you wanted to set a phone or you on 0:43:10.719 --> 0:43:13.640 a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I don't 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:15.920 have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well. 0:43:16.880 --> 0:43:18.600 If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:21.680 it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording. 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:26.680 So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a 0:43:26.719 --> 0:43:32.440 pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:37.719 back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:40.120 I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was 0:43:40.160 --> 0:43:44.239 in Kiev, um eight days ago? Um, and then I 0:43:44.280 --> 0:43:48.560 went to Leviv four days ago. Okay, And had you 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:51.560 been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:53.719 been I've been in Ukraine or I had been in 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:56.640 Ukraine in total for one week? Okay, so you know 0:43:56.800 --> 0:44:01.160 that long? And you so you ride Kieth, you went 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.640 to Lviv. Can you remember, like where you were when 0:44:04.680 --> 0:44:07.920 you found out that the invasion was happening and that 0:44:08.040 --> 0:44:11.840 it was going to go posting bass and into the Ukraine. Yeah, 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:13.920 of course. So I woke up on the morning of 0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:17.600 twenty four February to the sound of air raid sirens outside, 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:19.359 and it was a very confusing sound. I had never 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:21.399 heard it right, sirens in real life. I just heard 0:44:21.400 --> 0:44:23.560 them in movies and television shows and such, and I 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:26.080 knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even have to 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:30.160 check the news. Um and I did check the news 0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:33.440 soon afterward, and there were bombings all over the country. 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:36.399 There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss, which 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:39.880 is a city on KOs south of Leviv where I was, 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:43.120 and there were so many rumors flying around. There were 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.800 rumors that the Russians were coming to Leviv at that moment, 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:47.799 which was not the case but can still be the 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:51.640 case very soon anyway. So we heard I heard these 0:44:51.680 --> 0:44:54.799 these air raids sirens as I woke up, and I 0:44:54.840 --> 0:44:58.520 shook away my roommate, who was a British journalist, UM 0:44:58.600 --> 0:45:01.480 and I told him we might be bombed any minute. 0:45:02.239 --> 0:45:04.680 So we went outside to try and find a shelter. 0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:08.640 UM pretty much still in our nightclothes. We went outside 0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:11.040 to try and find a shelter, and they were loudspeakers 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:15.800 saying uh, everybody remained calm, fine, shelter helped the elderly 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:18.880 stockpile water, and it was repeating this on repeat, and 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:22.800 people were shuffling along. There was a sense of muted panic. 0:45:22.880 --> 0:45:24.560 So it was an outright panic, but it was a 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:28.600 sense of urgency, I guess you could call it. And um, 0:45:29.280 --> 0:45:32.160 we were at war and that was when I realized 0:45:32.320 --> 0:45:37.799 that Ukraine was being invaded at that very moment. Wow, yeah, 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:41.000 it sounds dramatic. And at that point you went to 0:45:41.080 --> 0:45:43.879 the shelter. I'm guessing, so did you spend some time 0:45:43.920 --> 0:45:47.319 then before making the decision to head to polent So 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:50.240 after about fifteen minutes, the air rates I would stopped. 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:53.279 The news generally came around the city that Lviv was 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:57.600 not about to be bombed, but nevertheless, massive exodus of 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:00.960 people began from Leviv at that moment. Because okay, we're 0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.120 safe for now, but for how long are we safe? 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:07.960 Was the general sentiment that was around. So, Um, everybody 0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:11.080 just started making for the train station, the bus station, 0:46:11.640 --> 0:46:14.920 They got into their cars. People were just leaving. There 0:46:14.920 --> 0:46:16.640 were huge lines at the A T. M s. There 0:46:16.640 --> 0:46:20.520 were huge lines at the grocery stores. People were buying 0:46:20.520 --> 0:46:24.520 no perishables. Um, it was just not a panic pull 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:26.880 out I would call it, but it was an urgent departure. 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:29.600 It was an urgent exodus that was happening. And so 0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:32.360 me and my roommate we went to the train station, 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:35.120 waited in the line for two hours to see if 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:37.520 there were tickets. There were no tickets. We went to 0:46:37.560 --> 0:46:39.359 the bus station. We waited in the line for one 0:46:39.360 --> 0:46:41.760 hour to see if there were tickets. There were no tickets, 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:45.359 um And so then we started to get a little 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:47.880 worried because it was noon on the day of the invasion. 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:51.280 Russian forces were everywhere in the country. Of our bombings 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:53.840 everywhere in the country, and we had to leave, and 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:57.600 there was no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. 0:46:57.640 --> 0:46:59.799 Of course, the airport was being bombed a few hours 0:46:59.840 --> 0:47:05.279 later there um And so we tried to look into 0:47:05.320 --> 0:47:06.879 a car higher. We tried to see if we could 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:08.200 rent a car. We tried to see if we could 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:10.680 take an Uber or a lift or a blah black car, 0:47:10.719 --> 0:47:14.000 which is the Ukrainian version of Uber, and none of 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:17.000 those options were available. Because everybody was thinking the same thing, 0:47:17.640 --> 0:47:23.600 and in a sense of almost resigned despair, we decided 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.120 that it would be best to just start walking west 0:47:26.280 --> 0:47:29.359 and see what happened, And there was around noon when 0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:34.640 we began to walk west. Wow. Um, So when you 0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.040 set off to walk, did you just sort of take 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:39.200 what you could carry and that's sort of what the 0:47:39.280 --> 0:47:41.040 most people were doing. Or did you get the sense 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:43.520 that at least the people were like preparing for a 0:47:43.600 --> 0:47:46.720 long period of time away when they left. The people 0:47:46.920 --> 0:47:49.279 certainly were not preparing for a long period of time away. 0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:52.200 The people were not preparing for war. Um. For the 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:55.320 longest time, President z of Lynsky in the Ukrainian government 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:58.640 maintained that there would be no war. They called indications 0:47:58.680 --> 0:48:03.640 of war alarmists that called them ludicrous. And uh, it 0:48:03.719 --> 0:48:06.280 was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody 0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:07.920 sort of woke up and said there's going to be 0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:10.719 a war. So I remember the last day before the invasion, 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:13.160 people were getting ready, people were waiting at the A T. 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:15.799 M s. People were buying groceries, people were packing. But 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.440 it was not before before that time nobody was getting 0:48:18.480 --> 0:48:25.040 ready for the war. And so when the war struck, everybody, uh, 0:48:25.200 --> 0:48:28.759 everybody just sort of left hastily, and it was terrifying 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:32.000 departure of a sudden and terrifying departure because people didn't 0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:34.000 know what to do and they just sort of grabbed 0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:36.360 what they had and they ran. Luckily for me, in 0:48:36.400 --> 0:48:39.080 my roommate, we were traveling with, you know, just one 0:48:39.120 --> 0:48:43.680 pack or so because we were not living in Ukraine, um, 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:45.440 and so we were able to just carry what we 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:48.640 had on our backs. Yeah. So he told me through 0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:51.080 that walk then it's I think that's sort of like 0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:54.680 forty three miles, is that right? That's that's right. So 0:48:54.760 --> 0:48:56.759 we did take a municipal buss a little bit of 0:48:56.760 --> 0:48:58.480 the way, which are from municipal bus. I believe it 0:48:58.480 --> 0:49:01.560 was five kilometers down the roadroad, um. Five kilometers being 0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:04.400 like three miles down the road um. And the total 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:08.400 distance from Leviv to the borders eight eighty kilometers sorry 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:11.000 eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did not make a 0:49:11.080 --> 0:49:13.799 dent at all in the distance. And it was noon 0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:18.840 when we started, and we knew for a fact that um, 0:49:18.880 --> 0:49:21.279 that we would not make it before nightfall. And we 0:49:21.360 --> 0:49:24.160 knew that and we were terrified at that. So at 0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:27.480 first we walked along the countryside was picturesque, it was beautiful, 0:49:27.560 --> 0:49:32.040 It was indistinguishable from holiday during springtime. There was a 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:35.520 fair fair weather was sunny, um, and no one could 0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:37.319 even tell that the nation was at war. There was 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:41.480 really nobody else walking on the road besides us in 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:45.680 the beginning, and the first uh twenty kilometers, I would say, um. 0:49:45.880 --> 0:49:50.280 And then we started seeing long lines of the petrol stations. 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:54.040 Every everywhere was out of gas. There nobody had gas. Um. 0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:57.120 There was just no ability to fuel cars. And as 0:49:57.160 --> 0:50:01.480 a consequence of that, UM, cars were running out of 0:50:01.520 --> 0:50:03.719 gas and they were being abandoned on the side of 0:50:03.719 --> 0:50:07.520 the road, which caused further traffic pile ups, and soon 0:50:07.560 --> 0:50:13.760 the road was impenetrable to vehicles. UM. And so because 0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:16.680 of this, everybody started getting out of their cars and walking. 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.720 And so these families who had planned to escape Mukraine 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:22.719 to Poland in their cars and carry their lives with 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:25.000 them were suddenly faced with the hard decision of taking 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:27.960 what they could carry with them. Yeah, that just sounds terrible. 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:30.879 That sounds really difficult. And I'm sure you saw like 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:33.960 older folks and younger people as well, with people sort 0:50:34.000 --> 0:50:37.799 of and struggling to that's a long walk, right, It's 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:40.080 gon a walk, and everyone could do it, must be 0:50:40.160 --> 0:50:42.919 very dear. It's a difficult walk for a young man, 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.959 and many old women and little children under the age 0:50:46.960 --> 0:50:50.240 of five or forced on this march because there really 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:52.680 wasn't no other option for them. It was either go 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:56.640 back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, risk being under 0:50:57.400 --> 0:51:00.279 Russian occupation, or it was get out of your car 0:51:00.560 --> 0:51:03.600 and walk in the wintertime with no food or water, 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:08.800 no toilet, four fifty miles. And it was just this 0:51:08.960 --> 0:51:11.600 nightmare scenario because all these people were on the road. 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:14.080 There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't negotiate the mud. 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:18.640 There were mothers with strollers who couldn't get get the 0:51:18.719 --> 0:51:22.600 children um out, and the children were crying, and the 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:24.640 children were asking why are we here, what it will 0:51:24.680 --> 0:51:26.960 be doing? Why did we have to leave home and 0:51:27.000 --> 0:51:29.840 stand and walk fifty miles in the middle of winter 0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:34.160 um And the old people were sort of resigned to it. 0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:38.120 They There was one old woman I passed who was 0:51:38.480 --> 0:51:41.040 using a cane and she was hobbling along jade to backpack, 0:51:41.200 --> 0:51:43.520 and I asked her where are you going, because we 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:45.319 were a part we were a long long way from 0:51:45.320 --> 0:51:48.960 the border, and she said, I'm going to Poland, very simply, 0:51:49.040 --> 0:51:52.719 it was a very matter of fact um statement. And 0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:55.319 so these people walked with a sense of duty and 0:51:55.320 --> 0:51:59.000 a sense of urgency, and um, it was just a 0:51:59.120 --> 0:52:02.319 very tragic hymn terran scene. Yeah, I can imagine. And 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:04.440 that was a major that was a major route that 0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:07.200 you're run like a major road that just become impossible. 0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:10.440 It wasn't one of the bigger highways, but it was 0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:13.000 I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian M eleven, and 0:52:13.320 --> 0:52:15.920 it runs east west throughout the country and uh, yeah, 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.560 it's one of the major roads and it had become 0:52:18.600 --> 0:52:24.360 completely clogged. Yeah, Jesus so on arrival in in Poland 0:52:24.440 --> 0:52:30.120 or the border, and I understand that there's some men 0:52:31.239 --> 0:52:34.480 like broadly defined as like military age or eighteen to sixty, 0:52:34.520 --> 0:52:37.960 I think aren't allowed us and leave because they they 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:39.880 have they have to stay in it and enlist. Is 0:52:39.880 --> 0:52:42.960 that right? Did you see? Yes? The border was absolutely 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.799 the worst part for that reason. About five kilometers from 0:52:45.800 --> 0:52:47.279 the border. At the end of our walk, we were 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:50.000 feeling relieved, we were feeling like finally we've made it. 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:55.080 Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving by and 0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:59.320 announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their own voices, Um, 0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:04.160 all men must stay, All men between the ages of 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:07.239 eighteen and sixty have to stay get out of line now. 0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:09.719 And so the fathers naturally asked, because there were a 0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:11.600 lot of fathers who were there to protect their families, 0:53:11.600 --> 0:53:14.480 to safeguard their families, and to provide for their families. Uh, 0:53:14.520 --> 0:53:17.120 these fathers asked, how about us, we have to we 0:53:17.160 --> 0:53:19.919 have little children, We have children under the age of five. 0:53:20.239 --> 0:53:21.840 How are we supposed to provide for them if you 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:24.919 conscript us right here? The Ukrainian Army did not care. 0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:28.440 They pulled them away physically from their families. There were 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:30.840 a lot of tears. There was a lot of crying. 0:53:30.880 --> 0:53:33.920 There were a lot of hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, 0:53:34.000 --> 0:53:39.800 mothers left, husbands, um, lovers left each other. People people 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:44.520 just left. It was terrifying to watch. Um. Yeah, all 0:53:44.560 --> 0:53:48.000 these men were conscripted immediately into the army. Yeah, I 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:51.360 can imagine. And what people at that point like, it 0:53:51.440 --> 0:53:53.279 seems like that we're ready to be stoic. Up to 0:53:53.360 --> 0:53:57.360 that point, were people sort of resisting that, like just 0:53:57.560 --> 0:53:59.800 what they like, sort of sad but resigned to it. 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:02.320 Was that was that well, that was when the panic 0:54:02.360 --> 0:54:06.000 began because everybody was sad, but resigned to their faith 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:09.640 of walking to Poland. But nobody was prepared for losing 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:12.560 all the men. Um. So when all the men were lost, 0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:15.520 when all the men were taken forcibly, and this was public, 0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:18.440 everybody could see these men being yanked from their families. 0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:21.680 People first started yelling at the soldiers that didn't do 0:54:21.719 --> 0:54:26.640 anything obviously, um and they were they were so angry 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:29.239 at the soldiers, and the soldiers were genet care um. 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:32.399 And then panic began because people realized, oh my god, 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:34.719 this this person who was here with us, who was 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:37.480 a travel companion, who's a relative, now we have to 0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:39.759 leave without him. And even more, he's going to the 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:42.840 front now and he is in great danger at the front. 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:48.080 So people began pushing, they began shoving, they began being 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:52.160 rude to one another. Um. There there was no sense 0:54:52.200 --> 0:54:54.440 of empathy among the people at all, because it was 0:54:54.480 --> 0:54:58.560 a panic to get across the border at that point. Um. 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:01.520 So there were people fainting, uh, and that was really 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:04.600 just overlooked. The people who fainted were sort of dragged 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:08.440 to the side and left there. And I think they 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:09.880 they made it. I don't know if they made it 0:55:09.920 --> 0:55:13.799 out okay, They certainly didn't die, but there were people 0:55:13.800 --> 0:55:17.200 who were fainting. There are people who were sobbing there, 0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:19.799 or people who were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:23.120 It was just this sense of absolute human panic as 0:55:23.160 --> 0:55:26.000 people just tried to escape in the last in the 0:55:26.040 --> 0:55:28.920 last five kilometers and especially in the last five was 0:55:28.960 --> 0:55:33.000 the very worst. So, yeah, terrible thing to see if 0:55:33.040 --> 0:55:34.680 you hadn't stand you stay in touch. Want of the 0:55:34.760 --> 0:55:39.120 lads who was conscripted, right, Yes, that that was a 0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:45.919 development from tonight. So while we were walking about this 0:55:46.040 --> 0:55:48.880 was about fifteen kilometers out from the border, we met 0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:52.040 a young Ukrainian man UM and we just got to 0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:54.359 talking to him because I mean we could relate to him. 0:55:54.400 --> 0:55:57.080 We were about I'm about the same age as him, um, 0:55:57.360 --> 0:56:00.680 and so I we were just like we're talking about 0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:02.120 our lives and it was almost as if the war 0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:06.840 wasn't going on. And then we got to these army checkpoints, um, 0:56:06.880 --> 0:56:09.000 and they started calling all the men you have to 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:13.839 you have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh, 0:56:13.880 --> 0:56:15.480 I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:17.919 in this war. And he tried to you know, sort of, um, 0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:20.799 stay with us, because we were foreigners. We were not 0:56:21.200 --> 0:56:23.919 We were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort 0:56:23.920 --> 0:56:26.120 of tried to stay with us. He was he was 0:56:26.160 --> 0:56:30.120 a student, He was trying not to fight in this 0:56:30.200 --> 0:56:31.960 war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a 0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:37.760 girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we 0:56:37.760 --> 0:56:40.000 we were walking with him and I said, hey, do 0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:42.319 you want to do an interview? He said sure, UM, 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:44.839 and I started talking to him on camera and then 0:56:44.840 --> 0:56:47.040 the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey, 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:50.600 you get out of line. And UM he said, I'm sorry, 0:56:50.640 --> 0:56:52.960 I have to go, and he just gave me this look, 0:56:53.040 --> 0:56:56.600 like this despairing look, and he went with the soldier. UM. 0:56:57.640 --> 0:57:01.520 The two days later today, I Uh, he messaged me 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:04.560 on Instagram and he said, because we by the way, 0:57:04.600 --> 0:57:07.200 we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:10.960 He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I 0:57:11.000 --> 0:57:14.040 saw that you mentioned me in uh in your Twitter 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:16.680 because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, 0:57:16.760 --> 0:57:19.440 and he said, just letting you know I'm safe. Uh, 0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:23.480 I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. UM. I 0:57:23.480 --> 0:57:26.160 am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is 0:57:26.360 --> 0:57:30.760 my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he 0:57:30.800 --> 0:57:35.000 would otherwise be in the east. But um, I'm not sure. 0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:37.000 I just know that he was safe right now, and 0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:40.440 he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah, 0:57:40.520 --> 0:57:43.200 you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's 0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:46.040 in some rearrestu on roll, or if he's managed to 0:57:46.080 --> 0:57:47.480 get out of it. To him, how I know that 0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:49.480 he has managed to escape the brunt of the fighting 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:52.720 with the Russians, that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, 0:57:52.800 --> 0:57:55.320 but it's still a terrible thing to have to do with. 0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:59.160 So it's my understanding. It said visa, there's visa free 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:01.840 entry into Podent right now, exactly right, that people can 0:58:01.840 --> 0:58:04.960 walk aggressive. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:07.520 breeze compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why, 0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:09.720 but you have to wait in a long line in 0:58:09.840 --> 0:58:12.480 Ukraine for an exit piece, just for permission to leave 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:14.400 the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:18.520 worst part because they were only letting ten people out 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:21.040 every twenty minutes. That ten people get an ICET visa 0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:23.640 every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand 0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:26.600 people at the border with US, and so that's that's 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:29.040 where this panic happened is because every time they opened 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:31.560 that gate, every twenty minutes, and by the way, this 0:58:31.600 --> 0:58:34.240 is like two in the morning in the cold weather, 0:58:34.440 --> 0:58:38.480 and people are as I mentioned crying, vomiting, fainting, um. 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:41.640 And so every time they opened that gate, there was 0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:44.320 a human crush to get to that gate, and it 0:58:44.440 --> 0:58:46.200 closed it and they forced the people back, and then 0:58:46.200 --> 0:58:48.080 it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And 0:58:48.120 --> 0:58:50.840 this happened all night long. Um. And this was literally 0:58:50.840 --> 0:58:53.240 just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous, 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:58.680 it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert 0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:03.520 from your question, but very interesting. Poland was extremely easy 0:59:03.560 --> 0:59:07.320 to enter. There was no visa process. They understood, they 0:59:07.440 --> 0:59:09.880 led us through. I think they just barely looked at 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:13.720 our passports. Um. So yeah, it was it was easy. 0:59:13.960 --> 0:59:16.840 Were you at that point, like obviously had no plans 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:19.520 or places to go? So the cold day house you 0:59:19.600 --> 0:59:21.960 with some kind of refugee housing that they put you in. 0:59:23.240 --> 0:59:25.680 Uh not when I was there, Um, they did do that. 0:59:25.680 --> 0:59:28.800 They did implement that about twelve hours after I arrived. Um. 0:59:28.840 --> 0:59:32.560 But when I arrived, we were greeted immediately pretty much 0:59:32.600 --> 0:59:36.960 right out of the border facility with donuts and tea UM, 0:59:37.000 --> 0:59:39.439 and so they gave us tonus, they gave us tea UM. 0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:42.480 And then they said, hey, there's a bus to Premisshill, 0:59:42.560 --> 0:59:45.360 which is the city about fifteen kilometers west of the border, 0:59:45.880 --> 0:59:48.160 um where all the refugees are gathering. And they said 0:59:48.160 --> 0:59:50.280 there's a bus the Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:53.280 And we got on that bus um and then we 0:59:53.360 --> 0:59:55.880 end up. We arrived in Premiershill and at that time 0:59:55.920 --> 0:59:59.440 refugees were responsible for their own accommodation. We managed to 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:03.160 book a room in a hotel with eight other refugees 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:06.600 UM in the room. Uh. And so I was sleeping 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:09.479 in this this room with eight other refugees. They didn't 1:00:09.520 --> 1:00:11.680 want to talk to me. They were kind of despondent. 1:00:11.720 --> 1:00:15.520 They lost everything and so they were just very sad 1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:19.400 the entire time that I was there. Yeah. But to 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:22.880 answer your question about housing real quick, uh, about twelve 1:00:22.920 --> 1:00:25.240 hours after we arrived, they began setting up tents for 1:00:25.280 --> 1:00:27.600 the refugees and that is where many of the refugees 1:00:27.600 --> 1:00:30.640 are living now. Are intense. Okay, you know that's a 1:00:30.720 --> 1:00:33.440 Polish government or the Red Cross or is that citizens 1:00:33.440 --> 1:00:36.600 to Poland? I have no idea which organization did that, 1:00:36.680 --> 1:00:38.320 but I can tell you that I did not see 1:00:38.360 --> 1:00:41.280 a single Red Cross or United Nations representative while I 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:44.400 was in Poland. Okay, interesting, Yeah, they can be sometimes 1:00:44.400 --> 1:00:48.640 a little slow to react. Yeah, yeah, okay. So you 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:51.880 then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able to really 1:00:51.920 --> 1:00:54.440 talk to the people there. It's understandable they probably had 1:00:54.480 --> 1:00:57.400 a very very difficult twenty four hours and we all 1:00:57.440 --> 1:01:01.479 have had yeah, I mean no talking being had pretty much. 1:01:02.080 --> 1:01:04.360 Did you get a sense when as you met the 1:01:04.440 --> 1:01:08.480 people walking there, crossing the border, et cetera, where people 1:01:08.800 --> 1:01:12.080 did they have plans to be gone from Ukraine? Were 1:01:12.120 --> 1:01:14.280 they thinking where can I stay for a long period 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:16.720 of time? Were they thinking I'm going to wait this 1:01:16.760 --> 1:01:22.800 out in Poland? And see? Um. I was pleasantly surprised 1:01:23.000 --> 1:01:25.440 that a good half of the people that I spoke 1:01:25.480 --> 1:01:28.880 to in that in that convoy, in the refugee caravan 1:01:29.400 --> 1:01:33.320 had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere in Europe. Um 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:35.800 and so they were all they had all called their 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:40.320 relatives and they had arranged them to go to Western 1:01:40.320 --> 1:01:43.200 Europe and meet the relatives. Okay, yes, and they've got 1:01:43.200 --> 1:01:46.520 a place and they're planning to at least. However, another 1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:49.760 half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified. 1:01:50.040 --> 1:01:52.200 And those are the refugees that I stayed with the 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:54.920 hotel last night. Um, is that they're terrified and they 1:01:54.960 --> 1:01:57.640 have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's 1:01:57.640 --> 1:02:02.240 really provided them with one yet and no. Yeah, that's difficult. 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:04.360 And it seems like I don't be able to be 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:07.320 interesting to see how the United States three acts because 1:02:07.320 --> 1:02:11.400 it hasn't really done very much so far. Um, it's amazing. 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:14.080 I heard that the reason I crossed at that place 1:02:14.160 --> 1:02:16.840 rather than any other places that I heard that the U. S. 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:18.640 Army was there, and I did not see the U. S. 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:20.280 Army and I searched for them and I did not 1:02:20.320 --> 1:02:23.320 find them. So I don't know where the US is. Okay, Yeah, 1:02:23.400 --> 1:02:26.720 you haven't seen any any evidence of like any seeing 1:02:26.840 --> 1:02:30.479 no sort of n POS or government sort of aid 1:02:30.480 --> 1:02:33.880 for refugees yet. Then it's kind of surprising. As I 1:02:33.920 --> 1:02:36.520 mentioned that, I haven't seen any U N representative, any 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:42.040 Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I haven't seen any 1:02:42.200 --> 1:02:45.520 NGO or governmental representatives. I did see, of course Polish 1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:49.360 government representatives at the border, but that was about it, right, 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:52.439 it said from Polish people, do you get a sense 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:57.800 of sort of solidarity? How I think it talking about? 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:02.080 So it was actually amazing to say. It was heartwarming 1:03:02.120 --> 1:03:04.720 to see the citizens of Freshman Dell are now swamped. 1:03:04.920 --> 1:03:09.200 Their population has been doubled or tripled by the incoming 1:03:09.360 --> 1:03:13.840 Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing great amounts of solidarity. 1:03:13.880 --> 1:03:17.200 I actually attended a solidarity rally today, um where the 1:03:17.200 --> 1:03:20.200 citizens of Freshman Dill got together and they said ukraine 1:03:20.240 --> 1:03:23.880 Is are our brothers and putin us clearly in the wrong, 1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:26.920 and we will stand with them, We will show solidarity 1:03:26.960 --> 1:03:28.680 with them. And that was hard warming to say. I 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:30.760 talked with a few of those Poles at that rally 1:03:30.800 --> 1:03:33.439 and they said, yeah, we knew this was coming and 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:35.480 we prepared for it and we're ready to take in 1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:39.080 as many as is necessary. Yeah, that's really nice to herrity. 1:03:39.200 --> 1:03:41.920 At least people are that sort of showing sortidarity with 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:45.520 each other, in support with each other. And yes, yeah, 1:03:45.640 --> 1:03:48.200 so when you were on your way west, I presume 1:03:48.360 --> 1:03:51.720 that like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right 1:03:51.760 --> 1:03:54.400 you were to the saibected like in direct fire, or 1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:59.440 you see any of that. No. However, there was about 1:04:00.080 --> 1:04:03.240 fifty kilometers behind us a bombing. As I mentioned, we 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:06.360 did not hear it, but there were reports of the 1:04:06.360 --> 1:04:08.720 fighting going on all the time. But it's not catch 1:04:08.800 --> 1:04:11.160 up to us while we were in that while we 1:04:11.160 --> 1:04:13.560 were in that caravan, and um it would have been 1:04:13.560 --> 1:04:16.240 absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that it 1:04:16.320 --> 1:04:19.960 did that, right. Yeah. And then, so you've been there 1:04:19.960 --> 1:04:22.000 for about a week. Had you previously been doing some 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:27.640 reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine before. 1:04:27.680 --> 1:04:29.400 But when I came to Ukraine and the war had 1:04:29.400 --> 1:04:32.760 not even started, I was mostly just doing interviews with 1:04:32.800 --> 1:04:35.120 civilians about what they thought about the possibility of war, 1:04:35.480 --> 1:04:37.480 about what they thought about the war and don Bass 1:04:38.080 --> 1:04:40.640 um most a lot of cultural stuff. It was kind 1:04:40.640 --> 1:04:43.360 of boring. I mean not that not that war is 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:47.480 interesting or fund but it was not really much of 1:04:47.520 --> 1:04:49.840 a story. Um. So. I was just doing interviews with 1:04:49.920 --> 1:04:54.320 people about basic Ukrainian things. And then the war found 1:04:54.400 --> 1:04:57.240 us so and it seemed to have come as much 1:04:57.320 --> 1:04:59.640 a shock to them as it did to the rest 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:03.360 of us. As I mentioned, nobody was prepared for war 1:05:03.480 --> 1:05:05.640 until about twenty four hours before a hit and that's 1:05:05.640 --> 1:05:08.120 when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will be a war, 1:05:08.160 --> 1:05:11.200 and everybody began sort of to have a sense of 1:05:11.280 --> 1:05:14.320 urgency about them. Right. Did you see any of the 1:05:14.520 --> 1:05:18.760 citizen militias and citizens preparing for defense the people who 1:05:18.760 --> 1:05:22.880 decided to stay. Yes, I didn't see any of the militias. 1:05:22.920 --> 1:05:26.479 But I was went into a Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev 1:05:27.000 --> 1:05:29.400 and there was a line almost off the door. People 1:05:29.400 --> 1:05:32.600 were buying guns, um and I asked one of the 1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:35.040 people on the line, why are you buying a gun? 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:37.840 And he said, if the Russians come, I want to 1:05:37.840 --> 1:05:41.440 be prepared. So a lot of people are buying guns 1:05:41.480 --> 1:05:45.120 privately in Kiev, at least as of last week, okay, 1:05:45.200 --> 1:05:46.840 so that they weren't wait for the government to supply. 1:05:46.920 --> 1:05:49.680 Then they were supplying themselves with guns. I believe. I 1:05:49.720 --> 1:05:53.800 believe the government's supply was a rather um, a sudden decision. 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:56.040 I don't think the ukraining people were counting on it, 1:05:56.120 --> 1:05:59.640 and so they were supplying themselves and then buying like 1:05:59.640 --> 1:06:02.560 like ashing cough to the rifles. We talked about hunter 1:06:02.800 --> 1:06:05.200 rifles and yeah, you can't buy the flashing cobs in 1:06:05.240 --> 1:06:07.280 a gun store. They were buying sort of hunting rifles 1:06:07.280 --> 1:06:11.560 and shotguns Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah, really under equipped, all right. 1:06:11.600 --> 1:06:13.320 So they were just prepared to trying to get anything 1:06:13.360 --> 1:06:15.640 they could get their hands on to look after themselves 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:20.720 and their families. Yeah, I bought that spray. Yeah that 1:06:20.920 --> 1:06:24.520 it than nothing. H yeah, okay, so yeah there was 1:06:25.040 --> 1:06:28.280 there was. Did you see like the people you walked 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:31.200 with with it? Did families tend to leave as a 1:06:31.240 --> 1:06:34.320 whole or did did some folks so say I'm going 1:06:34.320 --> 1:06:36.160 to stay behind and fight, or I'm going to stay 1:06:36.160 --> 1:06:38.920 behind to stay and look after a house and you 1:06:38.960 --> 1:06:42.040 should leave. Did you get sent to that the vast 1:06:42.080 --> 1:06:44.800 majority of people traveling were families as a whole. There 1:06:44.800 --> 1:06:48.560 were very few single travelers or partial families traveling. It 1:06:48.640 --> 1:06:50.800 was I think that people have wanted to stick together 1:06:50.880 --> 1:06:52.880 and so it was the vast majority of people traveling 1:06:52.880 --> 1:06:56.920 were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, So stayed or left? Do 1:06:57.000 --> 1:06:59.160 you get a sense of how many people you said 1:06:59.160 --> 1:07:01.800 about two thousand put out the border, like of what 1:07:01.880 --> 1:07:06.480 proportion of the city decided to leave for Poland not 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:09.960 all the people that the border were from leviv Um. 1:07:10.000 --> 1:07:12.000 A lot of them have been traveling since that morning 1:07:12.080 --> 1:07:16.920 from Kiev, uh and other cities in UH central western Ukraine. 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:19.440 Um So, yeah, I was talking to people at the 1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:20.960 border and a lot of them were from Kiev, A 1:07:21.000 --> 1:07:24.360 lot of them were from zephyr Zisa. I'm pronouncing that wrong. 1:07:24.480 --> 1:07:26.240 A lot of them were from turnal Pill or Ivana, 1:07:26.320 --> 1:07:33.120 frankisk Um or Odessa and Uh. So I would not 1:07:33.480 --> 1:07:36.520 have any sort of conjecture on what percentage of the city. Also, 1:07:36.720 --> 1:07:40.120 still pretty early in the crisis, h because it was 1:07:40.160 --> 1:07:42.640 still the first day and it was fewer than twenty 1:07:42.640 --> 1:07:45.040 four hours after the invasion began. So I imagine the 1:07:45.120 --> 1:07:48.040 numbers are a lot higher now. When you were getting 1:07:48.080 --> 1:07:50.560 news right, if you were traveling, etcetera. Were you like 1:07:50.720 --> 1:07:54.440 on Whatsapple? What people on Twitter? Like? How are they 1:07:54.440 --> 1:07:58.760 getting news of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely everybody 1:07:58.960 --> 1:08:03.680 was completely dark during the walk, um because I don't 1:08:03.680 --> 1:08:07.000 know why, but there was no sense of cell reception, 1:08:07.040 --> 1:08:09.160 there was no sense of data reception, there was no 1:08:09.200 --> 1:08:12.360 sense of Internet connection at all during the walk. And 1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:15.800 so everybody I met, we we asked, we asked everybody 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:17.760 we met, do you have any news? And they said no, 1:08:18.000 --> 1:08:21.120 do you have any news? Um? So nobody had any 1:08:21.120 --> 1:08:23.759 news until we got to the border. Some people had news, 1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:27.960 but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in 1:08:28.000 --> 1:08:29.920 the dark about what was going on. And that was 1:08:30.000 --> 1:08:33.200 terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun 1:08:33.960 --> 1:08:37.000 and we didn't get to be updated on the first 1:08:37.360 --> 1:08:41.120 a half day of it. So yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, 1:08:41.120 --> 1:08:43.240 and then on arrival you're faced with this news of 1:08:43.360 --> 1:08:47.759 this like sort of glitz cre egl lied right, bombing 1:08:47.800 --> 1:08:51.479 and right yes. Um. I mean we we saw a 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:53.720 little bit of it in the morning that day, well 1:08:53.760 --> 1:08:56.800 when we when we started out, um, but it had 1:08:56.840 --> 1:09:00.320 really accelerated and amplified by the time that we ved 1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:04.160 Um and the Ukrainians were absolutely terrified at this because 1:09:04.160 --> 1:09:07.840 they did not realize what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, 1:09:07.840 --> 1:09:10.760 I think very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's 1:09:10.760 --> 1:09:13.840 in your own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when 1:09:14.320 --> 1:09:17.240 the fighting began in the Chernobyl exclusions or were you 1:09:17.240 --> 1:09:20.679 in Poland by then? When did the fighting began in Churnal? 1:09:21.479 --> 1:09:24.679 I believe about twenty four hours after the fighting began, 1:09:25.680 --> 1:09:29.760 big period. I was crossing into Poland twenty four hours 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:32.120 after the fighting began period, So I was probably crossing 1:09:32.120 --> 1:09:35.240 into Poland when that fighting began. Okay, it's interesting to know, 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.439 especially how sort of the older people or people who 1:09:37.479 --> 1:09:41.479 have been alive the nuclear accidents, you know. But I's 1:09:41.520 --> 1:09:44.160 wondering how they I mean, I've been talking to plenty 1:09:44.160 --> 1:09:47.160 of plenty of older people, and as I mentioned, the 1:09:47.160 --> 1:09:50.439 older people especially were resigned to this because during the 1:09:50.479 --> 1:09:52.840 Soviet times, during the Cold War, the sort of thing 1:09:52.880 --> 1:09:55.920 was common, um, And so the older people knew what 1:09:56.000 --> 1:09:58.040 was going on, and the younger people were the ones 1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:01.599 who were more panicking. That's in testing. Yeah, they said 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:05.720 they've been raised with the fear of that. I suppose, right, 1:10:05.840 --> 1:10:10.479 And this happened in to like this is the biggest 1:10:10.479 --> 1:10:13.000 refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, because in nineteen eight 1:10:13.080 --> 1:10:17.120 and nine, when all the republics fell in the Warsaw Pact, 1:10:17.880 --> 1:10:19.479 so many people turched to the roads, and so the 1:10:19.520 --> 1:10:22.160 older people were used to that kind of thing, um, 1:10:22.200 --> 1:10:25.519 But as I mentioned, the younger people were not so right. Yeah, yeah, 1:10:25.600 --> 1:10:29.320 and so yeah, different reactions, I guess. And it's very 1:10:29.360 --> 1:10:33.280 young people obviously unable to understand what's going on. And 1:10:33.280 --> 1:10:36.559 beyond the there leaving their homes, which is said right, 1:10:36.640 --> 1:10:39.240 and especially the little children had no idea what was 1:10:39.280 --> 1:10:42.120 going on, and it was impossible to explain to them, 1:10:42.120 --> 1:10:44.960 so nobody did um And so I can't imagine how 1:10:45.080 --> 1:10:47.639 terrifying this must have been as a child, not knowing 1:10:47.680 --> 1:10:50.519 why you had to walk dozens of hours in the 1:10:50.560 --> 1:10:54.200 cold carrying everything you had. Yeah, it's always the saddest 1:10:54.240 --> 1:10:57.280 thing to see children in those refugee situations when they 1:10:57.479 --> 1:10:59.800 you know, if you don't know what's going on and doing, 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:03.800 think Rome right. Yeah, hopefully they're all safe. Hopefully they're 1:11:03.800 --> 1:11:08.479 in Poland, hopefully they can go to safe places. I 1:11:08.560 --> 1:11:12.360 made several contacts during this trip, and as I mentioned, 1:11:12.479 --> 1:11:13.960 only one of one of them has gone back to me, 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:16.720 So I hope the others get back to me soon. Yeah, 1:11:16.760 --> 1:11:18.920 that's tough, but you've got the sense of everyone since 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:21.840 they weren't turned back. Per say, they just might be 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:25.080 sort of not in touch because their phones don't charged 1:11:25.160 --> 1:11:29.639 or something like that. It's either their phones aren't aren't charged, 1:11:29.800 --> 1:11:31.720 or in the men men's case, they were sent to 1:11:31.760 --> 1:11:35.760 the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations 1:11:35.840 --> 1:11:39.200 or food for themselves or something I mean, everybody was 1:11:39.320 --> 1:11:42.920 just very busy trying to survive. Yeah, so I don't 1:11:42.920 --> 1:11:44.479 blame them if they don't, if they don't hop on 1:11:44.520 --> 1:11:48.720 social media. Yeah, yeah, of course. And of course yeah, 1:11:48.720 --> 1:11:51.439 I did very very stressful time for everyone. Did you 1:11:51.479 --> 1:11:53.400 did you hear of anyone who has been sent to 1:11:53.439 --> 1:11:55.760 the east, either second hand or like three people you 1:11:55.840 --> 1:11:59.640 met people who are at the front already. Um, I 1:12:00.000 --> 1:12:02.240 do not have any contacts of anybody who was sent 1:12:02.280 --> 1:12:05.240 to the East. From what I understand, the Ukrainian Army 1:12:05.600 --> 1:12:09.599 has a strict uh communication social media sort of policy, 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:13.439 and so none of these soldiers that I met one 1:12:13.479 --> 1:12:15.320 wanted to talk to me. I did not talk to 1:12:15.360 --> 1:12:18.439 any Ukrainian Army soldiers in uniform because they had a 1:12:18.520 --> 1:12:20.519 very strict policy. They could not talk to me, and 1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:23.000 too I could not get their contacts for much of 1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:24.960 the same reason. Okay, so they didn't want to talk 1:12:24.960 --> 1:12:26.200 to you, and I didn't want to talk to anyone. 1:12:26.280 --> 1:12:28.240 They were just looking for you know, they were just 1:12:28.320 --> 1:12:30.400 they were very stern and they did not want to 1:12:30.400 --> 1:12:32.720 talk to anybody. So I talked to zero soldiers in 1:12:32.840 --> 1:12:36.880 uniform during this experience. Okay, yeah, so where are you now? 1:12:37.000 --> 1:12:40.479 You've you've gone further west west desem Right, that's right. 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:43.840 I took a long bus ride to crack Off today. Um, 1:12:43.920 --> 1:12:47.320 and so I'm now I'm crack Off Poland. Okay, how folks? 1:12:47.920 --> 1:12:50.400 Is it different there being about a little bit more distant. 1:12:51.520 --> 1:12:54.599 I've already talked to a few people and uh, well 1:12:54.640 --> 1:12:57.120 it's a Saturday night. They're going out to drink, and 1:12:57.320 --> 1:13:01.960 they they're saying, well, yeah, it's it's terrible that this 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:06.320 war is happening two fifty miles east of us, but 1:13:06.400 --> 1:13:08.639 what are we supposed to do about it? So they're 1:13:08.720 --> 1:13:12.240 going out and drinking. So it's this very detached sense 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:14.320 here and crack out. Not the same as it was 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:17.160 in Freshmanville. Yeah, interesting to people are living their normal 1:13:17.200 --> 1:13:19.120 life and it's just it's a news item for them. 1:13:19.200 --> 1:13:26.519 It's they're not worried about any potentials spill over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, 1:13:26.680 --> 1:13:29.599 they're not worried. Nice and well you do you plan 1:13:29.720 --> 1:13:33.040 to stay there? What's what's next to you? So I 1:13:33.040 --> 1:13:35.880 actually just booked a flight uh an hour ago. I'm 1:13:35.920 --> 1:13:39.800 going to be flying back to the States on Marshall first. Okay, great, yeah, 1:13:39.800 --> 1:13:42.280 so you can you can come back, and presumably you're 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:45.960 like your US passible holders, so you could just get 1:13:46.040 --> 1:13:50.160 that's how you got through being conscripted, etcetera. I am not. 1:13:50.280 --> 1:13:53.240 I'm not carrying US passport right now. I'm carrying an 1:13:53.240 --> 1:13:57.679 Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen of Italy. 1:13:57.760 --> 1:14:00.479 And I was told before I left by some friends 1:14:00.479 --> 1:14:03.200 in the intelligence community that it would look significantly less 1:14:03.200 --> 1:14:05.879 suspicious to carry an U passport than the US passport. 1:14:05.960 --> 1:14:08.360 So I bought the EU passport. Nice. Yeah, and then 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:12.960 you can travel free lyre y, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do 1:14:12.960 --> 1:14:16.040 you know if Yukrainian people can creble once? Because once 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:18.559 they're in Poland, can they then move through the Shangan's 1:14:18.600 --> 1:14:22.880 own freely? Ukraine is not a member of the EU, 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:25.040 they're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe 1:14:25.040 --> 1:14:28.519 they can move really, right, I just wondering, like, yeah, 1:14:28.560 --> 1:14:31.040 they would be. I don't know how their passports would 1:14:31.040 --> 1:14:32.920 be checked if they're going across some of those land 1:14:32.920 --> 1:14:35.360 borders that I think. I do know that this was 1:14:35.479 --> 1:14:39.000 it was an emergency situation yesterday and so that's why 1:14:39.080 --> 1:14:41.280 they were just very personally checked. But I'm sure it's 1:14:41.280 --> 1:14:43.600 director usually. Yeah, I wonder what they would be like 1:14:43.640 --> 1:14:46.880 if they tried to exit Poland or if they'll right, 1:14:47.640 --> 1:14:49.400 I don't know what's going to happen to them, No, 1:14:49.640 --> 1:14:51.800 I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of 1:14:51.880 --> 1:14:54.200 that that you've seen, either right, leg of what they 1:14:54.200 --> 1:14:57.240 should do or how to apply for asylum or anything 1:14:57.320 --> 1:15:00.160 like that. I have talked to a few people. They 1:15:00.160 --> 1:15:04.800 say that they're banking on those countries being empathetic to refugees, 1:15:04.880 --> 1:15:07.080 and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic 1:15:07.080 --> 1:15:10.679 to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will. 1:15:11.400 --> 1:15:14.960 So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones 1:15:15.000 --> 1:15:17.599 who don't have a country to go to, you get 1:15:17.600 --> 1:15:20.120 the senser, Yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum wherever 1:15:20.160 --> 1:15:24.000 they can find a safe place. That's right, um. And 1:15:24.040 --> 1:15:26.760 I believe that countries Western European countries that have been 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:30.120 very vocally pro Ukraine recently, UM, will take them in. 1:15:30.439 --> 1:15:33.160 So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, that's 1:15:33.200 --> 1:15:35.439 good to hear. I know. I've seen estimates of up 1:15:35.439 --> 1:15:42.080 to five million refugees, which would be I mean, Germany 1:15:42.120 --> 1:15:44.880 absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not. Yeah, 1:15:44.920 --> 1:15:47.360 it's not impossible for Western European countries do that at all, 1:15:48.240 --> 1:15:51.120 but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis, 1:15:51.160 --> 1:15:54.880 the worse than magine. And yeah, I have to hope 1:15:54.880 --> 1:15:56.519 it doesn't get to that. Do you get the sense 1:15:56.520 --> 1:15:59.040 of people are still flowing across the border? I know 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:01.000 you're a bit yes, you think for me, I mean 1:16:01.880 --> 1:16:04.479 it's weird because you want to believe that what you 1:16:04.600 --> 1:16:08.200 experienced and what the people around you've experienced was a 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:10.360 one time thing, that it was a one time incident, 1:16:10.439 --> 1:16:13.600 that it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly 1:16:13.800 --> 1:16:17.680 and it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah, 1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:20.280 the trains and the across the border, things like that 1:16:20.280 --> 1:16:23.240 that people can take or is it solely yes? So 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:25.120 when when I said that, I went to the train 1:16:25.200 --> 1:16:27.599 station and the leave and there were no trains, what 1:16:27.640 --> 1:16:29.920 was really happening is, yes there were trains, but all 1:16:29.920 --> 1:16:34.479 the trains until March March were booked, So okay, so yeah, 1:16:34.520 --> 1:16:38.599 people can't take their trains across that kind of thing. Uh, 1:16:39.120 --> 1:16:40.760 if they tried to book right now, they won't be 1:16:40.800 --> 1:16:42.880 able to find a booking for a while. Okay, so 1:16:43.000 --> 1:16:45.800 they were already booked up. And by the way, here 1:16:45.840 --> 1:16:48.640 in crack Out, Um, the first two hostels that I 1:16:48.680 --> 1:16:50.880 went to, the first two places to stay that I 1:16:50.920 --> 1:16:53.040 went to, we're all booked up. And I asked why 1:16:53.040 --> 1:16:55.559 and he said, Ukrainian refugees. So there are Ukrainian refugees 1:16:55.600 --> 1:16:58.040 here and crack Out Okay. Yeah, people are moving for it. 1:16:58.120 --> 1:16:59.479 I'm sure a lot of people want to get far 1:16:59.520 --> 1:17:03.080 aways hand. Yeah. So people are just constantly moving lest 1:17:03.200 --> 1:17:05.400 right now. Yeah, but they have friends of a family 1:17:05.439 --> 1:17:08.280 that they don't get to it because Yeah, and I've 1:17:08.280 --> 1:17:11.040 been hearing the Ukrainian language just constantly on my trip, 1:17:11.120 --> 1:17:16.040 so that's interesting too. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for that's a 1:17:16.120 --> 1:17:18.320 really really interesting inside. Is there anything else you think 1:17:18.479 --> 1:17:25.120 from your experience that people ought to hear about? Um? No, 1:17:25.240 --> 1:17:27.320 I believe I've told you everything. I've I've really told 1:17:27.320 --> 1:17:31.000 the story dozens of times since it happened, and UM, 1:17:31.280 --> 1:17:33.120 I really hope that I hit all the all the 1:17:33.240 --> 1:17:37.320 right notes here. UM, if you if you had to 1:17:37.360 --> 1:17:39.679 tell anything to the people who were reading or listening 1:17:39.760 --> 1:17:44.240 to this, Um, Ukraine really needs weapons, yes, but they 1:17:44.280 --> 1:17:47.879 also need humanitarian aid. When I was walking all that distance, 1:17:47.920 --> 1:17:50.439 with all those people, there was not a single sense 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:54.200 of food being provided to anyone, water being provided to anyone. 1:17:54.240 --> 1:17:56.000 There was no chance to go to the toilet, there 1:17:56.040 --> 1:17:58.559 was often no chance to sit down. If we could 1:17:58.640 --> 1:18:01.840 give even a chance for these people to eat something, 1:18:01.880 --> 1:18:07.000 to drink something, to have a minute of solace, um, 1:18:07.080 --> 1:18:08.800 that would mean the world to them. And so I 1:18:08.840 --> 1:18:11.000 think that we need to provide humanitarian aid to the 1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:13.880 refugees as soon as possible. And you you said you 1:18:13.880 --> 1:18:16.800 didn't see any organizations you'd suggest people donate to that 1:18:16.880 --> 1:18:19.040 you you didn't see any of that? Is there anyone 1:18:19.040 --> 1:18:22.880 you can know? And I don't know. I haven't actually 1:18:22.960 --> 1:18:25.960 done the research and that I probably should, um, but 1:18:26.320 --> 1:18:29.880 I I know that the Welcome Committee in Poland were 1:18:29.920 --> 1:18:32.639 private citizens. They were not part of any energy or anything. 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:36.840 They were private citizens were welcoming awesome. Yeah, I've seen 1:18:36.880 --> 1:18:39.200 some of them organizing on Facebook. So try maybe linked 1:18:39.200 --> 1:18:41.080 to some of those or something like that that people 1:18:41.120 --> 1:18:44.559 going to support, right and all right? And then is 1:18:44.560 --> 1:18:47.160 there anything like you'd like to to plug like do 1:18:47.160 --> 1:18:48.960 you have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is there 1:18:48.960 --> 1:18:52.439 anything else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um? 1:18:52.479 --> 1:18:54.439 I mean? So the Twitter that I'm using for this, 1:18:54.520 --> 1:18:56.720 which you've probably seen as a temporary one. It was 1:18:56.720 --> 1:18:59.400 meant only to cover this crisis. I guess my private 1:18:59.439 --> 1:19:03.320 twitter uh plugged that, which has you've seen that as well? Probably, 1:19:03.880 --> 1:19:07.040 Um it's just my name. Um yeah, I guess just 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:10.880 plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything, No, 1:19:11.120 --> 1:19:15.720 of course. Um it's a Mannie mutta with two teas, right, Yes, 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:18.200 M A R O T T A great. Okay, we 1:19:18.320 --> 1:19:20.720 got that, and yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for 1:19:20.720 --> 1:19:23.439 taking the time to talk. I appreciate a pretty difficult 1:19:23.479 --> 1:19:25.519 couple of days to get some rest. And if there's 1:19:25.560 --> 1:19:28.559 anything else in any developments, please do let me know. 1:19:28.600 --> 1:19:31.800 Give me a shout tella. Thank you. All right, cheers, mate, 1:19:31.840 --> 1:19:48.360 you have a body of me. That's that's that's the thing. 1:19:48.479 --> 1:19:50.800 Just take photos of his children walking into the door 1:19:50.800 --> 1:19:54.400 of their public school. Yeah, send him to him with 1:19:54.479 --> 1:20:03.360 the pro pro protatto Hill account. Don't let him know 1:20:03.400 --> 1:20:08.280 what he did to provoke this. Just just frighten him. 1:20:08.320 --> 1:20:11.559 I do like it els is being recorded. Yeah, that's 1:20:11.640 --> 1:20:14.040 that's how you do it. But the episode's begun. We're 1:20:14.080 --> 1:20:17.200 including all of that, Sofie, all of that welcome to 1:20:17.280 --> 1:20:19.599 it could happen here the podcast where we will take 1:20:19.600 --> 1:20:22.759 pictures of your children entering a public school and send 1:20:22.760 --> 1:20:24.680 them to you as a threat, but we won't tell 1:20:24.680 --> 1:20:28.880 you what you're we're threatening you over because that's I 1:20:28.880 --> 1:20:33.759 don't know what that is, probably terrorism technically speaking, speaking 1:20:33.800 --> 1:20:42.439 of child abuse. Great Garrison very proud nailed it. Yeah, yeah, 1:20:42.520 --> 1:20:44.919 So we're gonna be We're gonna we're doing an episode 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:49.400 to talk about the recent kind of letter and opinion 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:52.679 piece that the Governor of Texas and the Attorney general 1:20:53.200 --> 1:20:57.280 wrote relating to trans kids in Texas. We're we're also 1:20:57.320 --> 1:20:59.880 planning like like a more like a week long worth 1:21:00.080 --> 1:21:02.439 stuff kind of going into this issue across not not 1:21:02.560 --> 1:21:05.920 just the States, but also like like internationally as well 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:08.000 in terms of like the growing kind of war on 1:21:08.040 --> 1:21:11.720 trans people. But because this thing happened, we we do 1:21:11.800 --> 1:21:13.559 want to kind of talk about it now as well 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:16.360 before we you know, spend a lot of time making 1:21:16.600 --> 1:21:19.799 a week long is the worth of of of scripted 1:21:19.800 --> 1:21:22.080 pieces on it. So anyway, we're gonna be talking about 1:21:22.840 --> 1:21:26.720 what happened last last weekend or last week at time 1:21:26.720 --> 1:21:30.400 of recording, um when the Texas Attorney General kN Paxton 1:21:30.479 --> 1:21:34.120 released an opinion piece UM on I think it was 1:21:34.200 --> 1:21:37.920 it was Monday, they one declaring gender affirming medical care 1:21:38.000 --> 1:21:42.200 for transgender children to be a child abuse UM. In response, 1:21:42.360 --> 1:21:45.960 the next day, UH, the Governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, 1:21:46.040 --> 1:21:50.080 directed the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services UM 1:21:50.120 --> 1:21:54.320 to investigate these practices UM. And then kind of on 1:21:54.479 --> 1:21:58.360 that following Wednesday, the letter that Grey Gabbott wrote went viral, 1:21:58.880 --> 1:22:02.760 detailing both Attorney General's kind of opinion that a number 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:05.479 of the so called quote sex change procedures constitute child 1:22:05.479 --> 1:22:10.560 abuse under existing Texas law UM and directing the Family 1:22:10.600 --> 1:22:14.240 and Protective Services to protect these to quote unquote protect 1:22:14.320 --> 1:22:17.200 these kids from abuse. And I hear by director agency 1:22:17.280 --> 1:22:19.920 to conduct a prompt in their own investigation to any 1:22:19.960 --> 1:22:23.760 reported instances of these abusive procedures. UM. And what's really 1:22:23.800 --> 1:22:26.760 insidious is that like it's not even it's like, of course, 1:22:26.760 --> 1:22:31.040 like there is not gender affirming surgery done on minors anyway, 1:22:31.280 --> 1:22:34.800 that does not happen. UM. But the but this letter 1:22:34.840 --> 1:22:39.720 actually does UM go into UM says uh. It's it 1:22:39.800 --> 1:22:42.719 says uh. According according to the general Attorney General opinion, 1:22:42.880 --> 1:22:44.840 it has already against the law to subject Texas children 1:22:44.880 --> 1:22:47.840 to a wide variety of elective procedures for gender transitioning, 1:22:47.960 --> 1:22:52.080 including reassignment surgeries that can cause sterilization, removals of otherwise 1:22:52.080 --> 1:22:56.000 healthy body parts, and administration of puberty blocking drugs or 1:22:56.080 --> 1:22:59.160 doses of testosterone or estrogen. So it's not it is 1:22:59.200 --> 1:23:03.120 also including HRT, including puberty blockers, which again we already 1:23:03.160 --> 1:23:06.920 give to sis gender children all the time. UM. Puberty 1:23:06.920 --> 1:23:09.200 blockers are given to kids who have early onset pre 1:23:09.240 --> 1:23:13.360 perty who assists UM. But it's now including puberty blockers 1:23:13.439 --> 1:23:16.719 inside like constituting that in its in and of itself 1:23:16.760 --> 1:23:20.040 as child abuse, which is an escalation of things that 1:23:20.080 --> 1:23:24.679 we've seen before. UM. Yeah. And then it's also talking 1:23:24.680 --> 1:23:28.400 about how Texas law impostes reporting requirements upon all licensed 1:23:28.400 --> 1:23:33.960 professionals UM, including doctors and nurses, teachers, therapists, and provides 1:23:33.960 --> 1:23:36.400 you know, criminal penalties for failure to report things. So 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.360 like it is that that was that was that was 1:23:39.400 --> 1:23:41.680 the That was the main part of the of the 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:46.000 letter that went viral, detailing the different different ways that 1:23:46.040 --> 1:23:50.960 they're trying to harass, intimidate, and um introduce possible legal 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:55.519 legal repercussions to parents and um, you know caregivers who 1:23:55.560 --> 1:24:04.440 support transgender youth inside the state of Texas. Oh yeah, 1:24:04.680 --> 1:24:07.600 um it is. It is like the perfect example of 1:24:07.640 --> 1:24:10.519 the thing these people always do when they make laws 1:24:10.520 --> 1:24:14.760 based on their bigotry, which is like reflexively make a 1:24:14.840 --> 1:24:17.599 law based on whatever is like the fucking Twitter talking 1:24:17.640 --> 1:24:20.320 point that they've been yelling about, and then don't consider 1:24:20.360 --> 1:24:22.439 all of the different things that it's going to do 1:24:22.479 --> 1:24:24.120 that have nothing to do with the group of people 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:27.600 they're trying to hurt. And lots of cases, this is 1:24:27.640 --> 1:24:29.920 just gonna it's it's not even gonna it's it's gonna 1:24:29.920 --> 1:24:32.120 impact a lot of like queer people in general, right 1:24:32.120 --> 1:24:34.680 because it's it's in terms of like reporting things that 1:24:34.720 --> 1:24:37.120 seem outside the mainstream, so not even necessarily trans not 1:24:37.240 --> 1:24:40.360 even necessarily transgender people, not even necessarily queer people as well. 1:24:40.360 --> 1:24:41.920 Like there's a lot of like you know, I I 1:24:42.360 --> 1:24:44.000 and if definitely when I was growing up, there's a 1:24:44.040 --> 1:24:46.720 lot of like cis girls who enjoyed dressing more like 1:24:46.920 --> 1:24:50.160 Butcher tomboy. Um, you know, there's a there's a and 1:24:50.200 --> 1:24:52.240 there's a whole bunch of stuff that will just affect 1:24:52.400 --> 1:24:55.920 like kids in general. Um, with all of this reporting 1:24:56.120 --> 1:24:59.720 and all of this like and making making these like 1:25:00.040 --> 1:25:03.799 procedures and like hormone treatments like you know, to trying 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:06.519 to make them seem like they're legal. Because that because again, 1:25:06.560 --> 1:25:09.080 like the actual Texas law has has not changed. It 1:25:09.240 --> 1:25:11.920 is it is the it is. This is an opinion 1:25:11.960 --> 1:25:17.560 piece investing directing the Child Protective Services to investigate these things. 1:25:17.600 --> 1:25:19.439 So the actual law in the book doesn't change. What 1:25:19.479 --> 1:25:21.519 it has done is caused a whole bunch of like 1:25:21.640 --> 1:25:25.320 a possible legal danger um and a massive headache and 1:25:25.320 --> 1:25:27.960 just a whole bunch of like legal harassment against parents 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:29.800 and kids. And that that's what it's gonna that's what's 1:25:29.840 --> 1:25:32.320 gonna result in, because it's it's unclear what this what 1:25:32.400 --> 1:25:34.640 the governor's directive is going to actually practically look like, 1:25:35.280 --> 1:25:38.360 um because in the in the in a tweet on 1:25:38.520 --> 1:25:41.679 last Tuesday, he said that he's directing the Child Protective 1:25:41.720 --> 1:25:44.800 Services to enforce this ruling and investigate and refer for 1:25:44.880 --> 1:25:49.599 prosecution for instances of miners receiving affirming care UM. And 1:25:49.640 --> 1:25:53.639 then the Texas Protective Services told Time magazine on Wednesday 1:25:53.640 --> 1:25:57.000 that it was going to comply with the Governor's directive UM. 1:25:57.040 --> 1:25:59.720 But in terms of like directing them for prosecution, there 1:25:59.760 --> 1:26:03.000 has in like five Texas District Attorneys UM, including the 1:26:03.040 --> 1:26:06.519 d as of Dallas County and Houston's Travis County. They 1:26:06.520 --> 1:26:10.040 issued a statement to the day after condemning the Directive 1:26:10.520 --> 1:26:13.440 UM and saying that they plan to enforce the Constitution 1:26:13.520 --> 1:26:15.760 to their quote unquote that's what they said, and that 1:26:15.840 --> 1:26:18.960 they are quote deeply disturbed by Governor Abbots and Attorney 1:26:18.960 --> 1:26:23.760 General Paxton's cruel directives treating transgender children's access to life 1:26:23.800 --> 1:26:26.840 saving gender firm and care as child abuse. We will 1:26:26.880 --> 1:26:30.599 not irrationally and judifiably interfere with medical decisions made between children, 1:26:30.800 --> 1:26:33.799 their parents, and their medical physicians to ensure the safety 1:26:33.800 --> 1:26:37.000 of transgender youth, adding that we will not allow the 1:26:37.000 --> 1:26:40.759 governor or turn in general to disregard Texas children's lives 1:26:40.760 --> 1:26:43.439 in order to score political points. So in terms of 1:26:43.520 --> 1:26:45.240 you know, there's many certain parts of the certain parts 1:26:45.240 --> 1:26:48.000 of the state where even even if protective Services does 1:26:48.080 --> 1:26:51.439 investigate reports of this, they're not gonna get prosecuted. But 1:26:51.479 --> 1:26:53.040 there will be other parts of the state where these 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:56.080 they probably will like and because it's because because it 1:26:56.160 --> 1:26:58.679 is just because it is just an interpretation of the law. 1:26:59.240 --> 1:27:02.479 You can still you can still get lots of legal trouble, 1:27:02.760 --> 1:27:04.400 and it's going to be up to juries and other 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:06.920 people to decide on what interpretation of the law is 1:27:06.920 --> 1:27:10.559 going to be enforced and enacted upon. Um. So you're 1:27:10.560 --> 1:27:12.120 seeing a lot of people being like, oh, no, it's 1:27:12.120 --> 1:27:14.400 actually okay because the law is not changing, it's just 1:27:14.439 --> 1:27:17.040 the interpretation. And we're like, well, no, it actually is 1:27:17.080 --> 1:27:19.439 a big problem. Like it's like and it's not even 1:27:19.439 --> 1:27:23.519 it's just the overall like it's saying the things that 1:27:23.560 --> 1:27:26.840 have been gone unseid for a long time, like it 1:27:26.840 --> 1:27:28.680 it's it's it's making the things that everyone kind of 1:27:28.720 --> 1:27:31.840 assumed or was kind of the unseaid bigotry, putting it 1:27:31.880 --> 1:27:34.920 into writing and making it concrete. And it's like the 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:37.920 overall escalation of this thing which is which is is 1:27:38.160 --> 1:27:41.200 deep deep, deeply concerning. I mean, it's it's the thing 1:27:41.240 --> 1:27:45.320 that happened with like COVID restrictions, with like masks and stuff, 1:27:45.320 --> 1:27:48.559 where you've got the cities and stuff where you have 1:27:48.640 --> 1:27:50.920 kind of more rational leadership or saying like we're not 1:27:51.200 --> 1:27:53.639 we're not paying attention to this directed from the governor, 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:55.720 we're gonna keep having letting people mask or we're not 1:27:55.760 --> 1:27:58.960 going to let you, you know, go after businesses that 1:27:59.040 --> 1:28:03.200 require masks. But with the added dimension of like the 1:28:04.640 --> 1:28:07.799 rather than it being sort of targeting businesses and schools, 1:28:07.880 --> 1:28:11.080 it's it's targeting individuals, and it's allowing individuals to target 1:28:11.080 --> 1:28:14.360 other individuals, like the Texas abortion law exactly. And the 1:28:14.400 --> 1:28:18.400 primary purpose of this is going to be too basically 1:28:18.479 --> 1:28:22.799 gradually erode the areas in which which trans kids can 1:28:22.920 --> 1:28:25.960 can live in Texas. Like, yep, they'll be able to 1:28:26.000 --> 1:28:28.080 live in some of the cities for a while at least, 1:28:28.439 --> 1:28:30.760 well and even even in the cities. Right, it's like, yeah, okay, 1:28:30.760 --> 1:28:33.120 so maybe the the A doesn't prosecute, but that doesn't 1:28:33.120 --> 1:28:36.000 mean that CPS can't just can't investigate you, And like 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:39.599 that's that's gonna be really traumatic, a lot of legal 1:28:39.600 --> 1:28:44.599 harassment because like DFPS cannot remove any child from their 1:28:44.600 --> 1:28:47.519 parents or guardians without a court order, and no court 1:28:47.560 --> 1:28:50.920 in Texas or anywhere in the country has yet found 1:28:51.160 --> 1:28:54.320 gender affirming care to be considered child abuse. So it 1:28:54.320 --> 1:28:56.960 has not happened yet, but they sure wanted to happen. 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:58.680 And this is these are the next these are the 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:01.840 next steps that can make it happen. Right, They are 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:05.760 trying to get there um with this like incremental like 1:29:05.800 --> 1:29:08.080 these incremental things, you know, starting off with like legal 1:29:08.080 --> 1:29:10.960 interpretations and the law. Eventually they would want to change 1:29:10.960 --> 1:29:13.680 the law just to reflect this opinion, right, Like they 1:29:13.720 --> 1:29:17.639 want this to happen. They're just they're trying to slowly, slowly, 1:29:17.800 --> 1:29:22.320 slowly get at it um and it needs to be 1:29:22.439 --> 1:29:25.559 pushed back upon because yeah, any any slow incremental thing 1:29:25.560 --> 1:29:27.360 that they're going to try to do to make it 1:29:27.400 --> 1:29:30.519 basically be impossible to live as trans in Texas, the 1:29:30.760 --> 1:29:32.680 UH and lots of other states as well. It's not 1:29:32.720 --> 1:29:34.759 just it's not just Texas. There's things like this happening 1:29:35.040 --> 1:29:38.600 across all of the United States basically, especially especially you know, 1:29:38.640 --> 1:29:44.719 portion portions, portions of the South. Um. And it's yeah, 1:29:44.840 --> 1:29:46.840 it does play into this kind of overall in the 1:29:46.840 --> 1:29:49.679 past five years, you know, once they lost the gay 1:29:49.720 --> 1:29:52.599 marriage issue, they're like, Okay, the next line of defense 1:29:52.640 --> 1:29:56.280 for these people is making it be impossible to be trans. 1:29:56.400 --> 1:29:58.200 So it is that it's like the new that's the 1:29:58.240 --> 1:30:00.559 new thing they're gonna be really focusing on. And we've 1:30:00.600 --> 1:30:04.040 seen so many, so many new bills against against like 1:30:04.439 --> 1:30:07.400 being trans over the course of the past five years. Again, 1:30:07.400 --> 1:30:10.400 it's it is more so putting into writing the things 1:30:10.400 --> 1:30:13.400 that have been always kind of unconscious bigotry or even 1:30:13.240 --> 1:30:16.680 concis bigotry, but it's putting that into actual stone and 1:30:16.760 --> 1:30:20.120 making it like cemented. Um. You know, just at just 1:30:20.200 --> 1:30:21.879 at the start of this year, there was new restrictions 1:30:21.880 --> 1:30:25.280 put in place pro tectas is transgender student athletes playing 1:30:25.360 --> 1:30:29.200 on K through twelve school sports teams UM that that 1:30:29.240 --> 1:30:32.160 went into effect on January eighteenth. It was it was 1:30:32.200 --> 1:30:37.160 a house built twenty five authored by Representative Valerie Swanson. 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:42.519 UM requires student athletes to complete in interslastic competition to 1:30:42.600 --> 1:30:44.920 play on sports teams that correspond with the sex listed 1:30:44.960 --> 1:30:47.479 on their birth certificate at or near their time of birth, 1:30:48.040 --> 1:30:50.960 which means that the legislation went further than the previous 1:30:51.160 --> 1:30:54.759 rules from the University of Slastic League UM, which governs 1:30:54.760 --> 1:30:58.320 the school sports in Texas, in which the students gender 1:30:58.360 --> 1:31:01.200 is determined by their birth certificate. It but that that 1:31:01.280 --> 1:31:03.960 can also be legally modified, like you can change these 1:31:03.960 --> 1:31:06.719 texts assigned at birth on on on your birth certificate. 1:31:07.040 --> 1:31:09.400 The new ruling is that it needs to be it 1:31:09.400 --> 1:31:11.280 needs to match the one that it was at or 1:31:11.320 --> 1:31:13.559 near your time of birth. So again, like they're finding 1:31:13.600 --> 1:31:16.040 all these little, these little small like things to like 1:31:16.240 --> 1:31:21.760 pry um that just makes things overall be harder to 1:31:21.800 --> 1:31:23.920 live in um. And at this point, like ten ten 1:31:23.960 --> 1:31:26.439 other states have put in very similar laws relating to 1:31:26.880 --> 1:31:31.240 like relating to to school sports and like bathroom bills, 1:31:31.280 --> 1:31:36.160 and yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's the it's the 1:31:36.200 --> 1:31:38.760 same thing that authoritarians always do, which is they're just 1:31:38.840 --> 1:31:42.720 kind of edging further and further and and continuing to 1:31:42.760 --> 1:31:45.880 proceed as they do not meet resistance, and the goal 1:31:46.200 --> 1:31:49.280 is to make it illegal and impossible to exist as 1:31:49.280 --> 1:31:51.760 a transgender person in society. You know. Part of what 1:31:51.760 --> 1:31:54.439 they're doing with it with the wording of how this 1:31:54.520 --> 1:31:56.600 change in Texas has been announced as they're trying to 1:31:57.280 --> 1:32:01.160 frame being trans is a contagion that threatens children. And 1:32:01.439 --> 1:32:05.439 step one of that under the is going proceeding under 1:32:05.479 --> 1:32:07.680 the ages if we are protecting children by making these 1:32:07.760 --> 1:32:11.000 kind of surgeries and stuff illegal. But the steps beyond 1:32:11.040 --> 1:32:14.719 that are eventually banning and restricting the ability of trans 1:32:14.720 --> 1:32:17.280 people to be around children and eventually be in civil 1:32:17.320 --> 1:32:19.360 society at all because they're a threat to children. That 1:32:19.479 --> 1:32:23.320 that that's the logical procession of the arguments that they're making. 1:32:23.360 --> 1:32:28.560 And I think they're proceeding in a fairly um um 1:32:29.320 --> 1:32:32.200 logical way in terms of achieving that as a goal, 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:36.280 and they're not going to stop until they are stopped 1:32:37.400 --> 1:32:41.599 by probably force, if anything stops it. At this point, 1:32:41.640 --> 1:32:44.240 that's that's what it's going to have to be, because 1:32:44.360 --> 1:32:48.599 the local government has realized that that's how you get 1:32:49.240 --> 1:32:52.280 elected because you can't you can fix the power grid 1:32:52.320 --> 1:32:54.639 in Texas, you can't provide people with anything that makes 1:32:54.680 --> 1:32:57.759 their lives easier, but you can hurt trans people. UM. 1:32:57.800 --> 1:33:01.720 And Republicans are are are always down with that. It's 1:33:01.720 --> 1:33:03.519 it's it's it's it's this thing fascists to where they 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:06.080 introduce a false crisis. They introduce a false crisis that 1:33:06.120 --> 1:33:10.520 they can actually take steps to to, you know, um, 1:33:10.640 --> 1:33:13.280 make changes about. But all that ends up doing is 1:33:13.320 --> 1:33:15.280 hurting more of the population. It doesn't actually solve any 1:33:15.280 --> 1:33:18.320 issue that actually hurts people. UM. It's it's one of 1:33:18.360 --> 1:33:20.639 the core things in the fascist playbook. And I it's 1:33:21.160 --> 1:33:23.000 even in the States where there aren't just like blanket 1:33:23.040 --> 1:33:26.639 bands on kids being able to participate in sports teams. Um, 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:29.719 there's other horrifying things happening. Um Like. In the beginning 1:33:29.720 --> 1:33:34.040 of February, it came out that the Utah Republicans propose 1:33:34.240 --> 1:33:40.599 as commission to analyze trans kids bodies. Um, you're talking aboulicans, 1:33:40.920 --> 1:33:43.240 the first of its kind anti transit sports bill that 1:33:43.280 --> 1:33:46.800 would form a commission to determine a student athletes eligibility 1:33:47.080 --> 1:33:49.800 on a case by case basis. The commission would have 1:33:49.800 --> 1:33:53.200 authority to establish a baseline range for various attributes including height, weight, 1:33:53.240 --> 1:33:57.120 body mass, wingspan, hiptoony ratio another physical characteristics affected by 1:33:57.160 --> 1:34:00.720 puberty bearing trans athletes um who do not fall within 1:34:00.760 --> 1:34:04.840 the established limits to from from participating engendered sports. Um. 1:34:04.920 --> 1:34:08.439 And yeah, asking like a government appointed panel to analyze 1:34:08.439 --> 1:34:11.360 the bodies of transminers. It does sound like a giant 1:34:11.439 --> 1:34:14.000 recipe for disaster. Um. And there is some even more 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:18.439 like horrifying details. The bill would render the commission quote 1:34:18.600 --> 1:34:22.320 immune from suit like lawsuits with respect to all acts 1:34:22.360 --> 1:34:25.400 done and actions taken in good faith in carrying out 1:34:25.439 --> 1:34:29.559 their purposes. Uh. So, yeah, you can't sue anybody for 1:34:29.640 --> 1:34:32.519 what happens under the guise of this commission. So yeah, 1:34:32.520 --> 1:34:36.720 they're just gonna be investigating trans youth bodies and yep, 1:34:36.880 --> 1:34:41.679 you can't. There's no lawsuits allowed. Let's let's let's let's 1:34:41.840 --> 1:34:44.800 let's give the let's give the trans child abuse uh 1:34:44.840 --> 1:34:51.519 phrenology panel, just immunity from lawsuits, Like, yeah, qualified extend 1:34:51.600 --> 1:34:56.799 qualified immunity to citizens hurting the group of people that, uh, 1:34:57.000 --> 1:35:01.000 we don't think are human, Like, this isn't the only 1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:03.640 way place we're going to see that logic extended towards 1:35:03.840 --> 1:35:06.000 You're already seeing it in places like Louisiana with these 1:35:06.000 --> 1:35:08.680 bills to make it legal to kill protesters if you 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:13.720 feel threatened. Um, like, it's it's the same playbook, and 1:35:13.720 --> 1:35:16.160 it's going to be the same playbook because there's no 1:35:16.240 --> 1:35:19.800 way to fight it without some sort of force. You 1:35:19.840 --> 1:35:23.880 can't vote these people away. The courts are packed for 1:35:23.920 --> 1:35:28.400 the time being. There's there's only there's not a solution 1:35:28.640 --> 1:35:30.879 that isn't some kind of force. Now we can discuss, 1:35:30.960 --> 1:35:32.920 is it like the force of of getting the Feds 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:35.880 to intervene or whatever, But like, there's no there's no 1:35:35.960 --> 1:35:40.320 solution that is just like democratic, I mean, and like 1:35:40.800 --> 1:35:46.000 Biden's office made a statement on this recent Texas like 1:35:46.080 --> 1:35:49.360 a law opinion interpretation thing, and they're like, yeah, this 1:35:49.439 --> 1:35:51.759 seem was bad anyway, good luck? Could you like yeah, 1:35:51.760 --> 1:35:55.920 oh cool, Yeah, it's that that meme of like the 1:35:55.960 --> 1:36:01.880 person drowning with their hand out and they high five years. Yeah, 1:36:01.960 --> 1:36:04.960 that's what's happening. And I think the situation is like 1:36:05.400 --> 1:36:07.160 is it's worse than that too, because you know, in 1:36:07.360 --> 1:36:09.439 the past couple of weeks, what's something we started seeing 1:36:09.479 --> 1:36:13.000 as we started seeing democratic journals and democratic strategists openly 1:36:13.040 --> 1:36:14.800 talking about how we need to make assessions to the 1:36:14.880 --> 1:36:16.519 right and the culture wars Like okay, well what does 1:36:16.520 --> 1:36:18.360 that mean is like, yeah, throw pro trans concert to 1:36:18.400 --> 1:36:22.679 the bus right. Yeah, because they can't vote, they're already freaks, 1:36:22.880 --> 1:36:25.640 So yeah, they're the easiest person to pick away at 1:36:25.680 --> 1:36:29.400 the rights for UM And because overall, just in the 1:36:29.400 --> 1:36:31.320 past year alone, more than a hundred bills designed to 1:36:31.320 --> 1:36:33.599 restrict the rights of transgender people have been introduced at 1:36:33.640 --> 1:36:37.120 least three three states. Um, it's a it's a it's 1:36:37.120 --> 1:36:40.519 a record breaking year for anti trans legislation that's been 1:36:40.560 --> 1:36:43.839 that has been introduced. UM. In Arkansas, the state legislator 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:48.960 recently banned gender affirming treatment for minors um, including hormotherapy 1:36:49.040 --> 1:36:52.280 like like puberty blockers and similar treatments. Again, this is 1:36:52.280 --> 1:36:54.680 the thing that like that could not happen for a 1:36:54.720 --> 1:36:58.160 long time anyway, just because like culturally and medically doctors 1:36:58.200 --> 1:37:00.360 would never do that. But now at the point where 1:37:00.360 --> 1:37:02.800 that started starting to change, it is this. It is 1:37:02.840 --> 1:37:06.960 this like a reactive, reactive effect that people are doing. 1:37:07.000 --> 1:37:09.120 And like now now that now that these cogs are turning, 1:37:09.320 --> 1:37:11.759 people are putting the massive brakes on it and putting 1:37:12.040 --> 1:37:14.479 the thing that used to be just unsaid now into 1:37:14.560 --> 1:37:17.160 actual legal writing. So now this actually is like just 1:37:17.280 --> 1:37:19.960 not allowed as opposed to it just not happening because 1:37:19.960 --> 1:37:23.360 doctors were assholes. So yeah, in Arkansas you can't even 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:27.000 receive hormone treatment or beauty blockers. The bill was called 1:37:27.000 --> 1:37:32.400 the Save Adolescence from Experimentation Act. Yeah, so referring to 1:37:32.439 --> 1:37:36.479 medical treatment of one of affirming one's gender identity as experimentation, um, 1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:39.439 which is not great. I mean that is that is 1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:41.559 how I view it for myself because I like being 1:37:41.560 --> 1:37:44.559 a freak. But as an overall trend, that is that 1:37:44.680 --> 1:37:47.200 is horrible, Like that is a horrible way to to phrase, 1:37:47.240 --> 1:37:49.920 this type of thing for a lot of people, especially 1:37:49.920 --> 1:37:53.800 the people who who know specifically what gender they want 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:56.360 to be and and are like that is that affects 1:37:56.360 --> 1:37:59.479 them so differently. I mean, I'm I'm lucky enough just 1:37:59.560 --> 1:38:04.240 to be more are gender queer ish um And but yeah, 1:38:04.240 --> 1:38:06.679 it's all of these bills are gonna affect so many 1:38:06.800 --> 1:38:11.320 people in different ways, and it's it's real bad. Like 1:38:11.800 --> 1:38:15.680 shortly after the Arkansas bill prohibiting transforming medical practices was 1:38:15.720 --> 1:38:19.240 signed into law last April, reports of suicide attempts among 1:38:19.280 --> 1:38:24.280 trans youth in the state. Uh, we're going up. Um. 1:38:24.760 --> 1:38:28.880 And the doctor Michelle Hutchinson, who runs the largest provider 1:38:29.040 --> 1:38:31.599 of Homer therapy in the state, called the ap that 1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:34.639 just just into her office alone during April she saw 1:38:34.680 --> 1:38:38.280 an uptick in suicide attempts from from from trans youth 1:38:38.800 --> 1:38:41.840 and this is this is it's gonna keep happening, and 1:38:41.880 --> 1:38:44.360 like there is you can't trust a lot to stop it. 1:38:44.439 --> 1:38:49.280 Like the Arkansas Governor um uh Asa Hutchinson, a Republican, 1:38:49.520 --> 1:38:53.280 did veto this bill, citing potentially dangerous consequences for trans 1:38:53.320 --> 1:38:55.479 youth and telling it that telling reporters that it was 1:38:55.520 --> 1:38:58.920 a vast government overreach and a byproduct of the culture 1:38:58.920 --> 1:39:01.720 war in America, and her veto was vetoed by the 1:39:01.720 --> 1:39:03.920 state legislator, so like it's going to be a looping, 1:39:04.080 --> 1:39:08.400 endless problem of legal issues. So it's there's there's needs 1:39:08.400 --> 1:39:10.760 to be other things. Like I've been on Twitter the 1:39:10.760 --> 1:39:12.759 past week just watch looking at all the go fund 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:16.320 means by parents of trends kids in Texas who are 1:39:16.360 --> 1:39:19.200 trying to move out of state so that their kid 1:39:19.280 --> 1:39:22.240 can receive like hormone treatment and just like be allowed 1:39:22.240 --> 1:39:26.040 to be a person without being harassed by protective services 1:39:26.080 --> 1:39:29.719 and teachers and the school system. And it's it's it's 1:39:29.760 --> 1:39:33.080 it's horrifying, like watching all these people like asking for 1:39:33.120 --> 1:39:34.960 help so they can move out of state so that 1:39:35.000 --> 1:39:38.840 they can let their kid be just a kid. Um, 1:39:38.920 --> 1:39:42.920 And it's it is, it is really rough, um. And 1:39:43.000 --> 1:39:44.720 a big part of why, part of why it's so 1:39:44.760 --> 1:39:47.920 horrifying is that like, obviously, if you're in that situation, 1:39:48.040 --> 1:39:50.639 you can get your kid out there, of course, but 1:39:50.840 --> 1:39:54.320 it also means the more people who move out of 1:39:54.360 --> 1:39:57.240 places like that, the less resources there will be in 1:39:57.280 --> 1:39:59.800 the future for kids whose parents can't get them out, 1:40:00.040 --> 1:40:02.920 you know, support there will be the less and like 1:40:02.960 --> 1:40:05.640 there is just there is no real escape from it, 1:40:05.760 --> 1:40:08.800 like you cannot get fully away. It is that you 1:40:08.840 --> 1:40:13.240 cannot ever fully escape that type of fascist um thought 1:40:13.439 --> 1:40:17.400 and creep within the state legislator and specifically around you 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:23.240 know how it's going to affect different different classes of minorities. UM, 1:40:23.360 --> 1:40:25.000 I will direct people if you want to kind of 1:40:25.080 --> 1:40:27.760 learn more about this sort of thing and if you 1:40:27.760 --> 1:40:30.880 you know, can you can find some some stuff around that. 1:40:30.960 --> 1:40:34.559 There's an organization Texas called TENT which is the UH. 1:40:34.600 --> 1:40:36.120 I just want to make sure I say it right. 1:40:36.720 --> 1:40:40.759 Oh no, it's it's the Texas Educational Network, the trans 1:40:40.960 --> 1:40:44.160 Educational Network of Texas. UM. It's one one of those, 1:40:44.200 --> 1:40:45.720 but it is. It is a. It is a It 1:40:45.720 --> 1:40:48.360 has a whole bunch of like mental health resources, guides 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:51.439 for trans youth in Texas for how to make things 1:40:51.479 --> 1:40:54.640 slightly less shitty. Um and yeah, they do, they do 1:40:54.720 --> 1:40:57.439 some advocacy work in Texas. There's also a Quality Texas 1:40:57.680 --> 1:41:02.040 which is another organization that does that does assistance for 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:05.680 trance under people look in schools, um and just you know, 1:41:05.840 --> 1:41:10.840 try again trying to make life slightly less, slightly less shitty. UM. Yeah, 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:13.960 I kind of the last the last thing I wrote 1:41:14.000 --> 1:41:17.280 is the is just fix your hearts or die, which 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:21.360 is the kind of overall overall message that you can 1:41:21.439 --> 1:41:23.559 really only give to people who want to do this 1:41:23.600 --> 1:41:26.400 type of thing, is that, yeah, there's really no arguing 1:41:26.439 --> 1:41:29.640 with them. Um, you have to either they need to 1:41:29.680 --> 1:41:33.360 fix their hearts or not be around anymore. Like they're 1:41:33.360 --> 1:41:35.880 they're just like whether that be like just secluded to 1:41:35.920 --> 1:41:39.240 your part of society, but it's like it it needs 1:41:39.280 --> 1:41:41.800 to be actually like resisted upon because these people are 1:41:41.800 --> 1:41:44.000 never going to back down on their own. The other 1:41:44.040 --> 1:41:46.920 part of the problem here again is just with how 1:41:48.439 --> 1:41:50.320 you know, like this this is sort of kind of 1:41:50.360 --> 1:41:53.599 this is an inherent problem that you have with democracies, right, 1:41:53.680 --> 1:41:55.880 with with democracies and in civil rights words, Yeah, you 1:41:55.880 --> 1:41:58.840 have a group people who aren't extremely well minority, and 1:41:59.280 --> 1:42:01.599 you know, and you and and and this gets compounded 1:42:01.600 --> 1:42:03.880 by the fact that you're dealing with extremely small minority 1:42:03.880 --> 1:42:08.639 of people and you know, you're already dealing with like 1:42:08.680 --> 1:42:11.120 the you know, the thing that is called democracy, right 1:42:11.160 --> 1:42:13.320 is only participated in by an extremely small number of people, 1:42:13.400 --> 1:42:16.200 especially when you get you know, especially when you get 1:42:16.240 --> 1:42:18.680 down to the state level. Of the local level, right, 1:42:18.760 --> 1:42:20.640 like very few people are actually voting in these things. 1:42:20.680 --> 1:42:22.679 That people who are voting in these things like want 1:42:22.720 --> 1:42:26.639 trans people to die. And so you know, you you 1:42:26.640 --> 1:42:28.759 you you need, you need some kind of other solution 1:42:28.800 --> 1:42:33.479 to actually secure to secure civil rights, because there's just 1:42:33.520 --> 1:42:35.720 there's there literally are not enough trans people and there 1:42:35.720 --> 1:42:38.320 are not enough people who support them and care enough 1:42:38.360 --> 1:42:40.600 to do it and also are in these areas to 1:42:41.040 --> 1:42:45.000 prevent this through just the normal like vote blue. I mean, 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:47.280 like I keep seeing this with with Texas. Everyone keeps 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:48.800 saying it's like, wow, Okay, we just gotta vote blue. 1:42:48.840 --> 1:42:51.320 And it's like people have been like people have been 1:42:51.360 --> 1:42:53.760 saying this about stuff in Texas for as long as 1:42:53.800 --> 1:42:57.360 I've been alive. It has never happened. Ever, like it 1:42:57.400 --> 1:42:59.880 hasn't my entire life. They keep saying, is it keeps 1:42:59.880 --> 1:43:03.920 not happening and kids keep dying, and yeah, there has 1:43:03.960 --> 1:43:09.120 there has to be something else, because yeah, Texas, Texas 1:43:09.200 --> 1:43:13.479 has been labor laboriously constructed as a political entity to 1:43:13.640 --> 1:43:17.160 sty me all of your liberal dreams of of uh 1:43:17.200 --> 1:43:21.680 it going purple um and and it will continue to 1:43:21.720 --> 1:43:24.720 be for the foreseeable future. Like you cannot this is 1:43:24.720 --> 1:43:31.080 not a voting issue. This is a I mean, like 1:43:31.120 --> 1:43:33.320 I said, some kind of force is going to have 1:43:33.400 --> 1:43:35.760 to be used to oppose these people. They're not they're 1:43:35.760 --> 1:43:38.200 not there. They wouldn't listen if you voted them out, 1:43:38.520 --> 1:43:40.720 you know, and like and they do for like they 1:43:40.840 --> 1:43:44.160 themselves do for is you look at all the stuff, Yeah, 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:46.479 and and and even like regular people like this whole 1:43:46.640 --> 1:43:49.360 thing of like, yes, you should like report your neighbors 1:43:49.360 --> 1:43:51.160 that you see if you if you see a kid 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:55.800 who doesn't look like a regular normal borings this child that, yeah, 1:43:55.840 --> 1:43:58.200 you should report them. But you should go harass everyone 1:43:58.200 --> 1:44:00.200 who works in your school board so that they ban 1:44:00.320 --> 1:44:03.760 all books referencing anything related to being queer. It's like 1:44:03.960 --> 1:44:09.160 they do take steps to actually hurt other individuals. Um 1:44:09.240 --> 1:44:12.439 and they they can do it through these means that 1:44:12.520 --> 1:44:15.400 you know, they don't necessarily have to always punch you 1:44:15.439 --> 1:44:18.040 in the face, but they can sure direct the state 1:44:18.120 --> 1:44:22.120 to send agents to your house to to like to intimidate, 1:44:22.200 --> 1:44:24.839 harass you and threaten to threaten to take away your children. 1:44:25.280 --> 1:44:27.839 Um Or they can you know, if you're a therapist 1:44:27.880 --> 1:44:30.040 or a teacher, you can be fired or put in 1:44:30.120 --> 1:44:34.240 jail for failing to report, you know, kids who don't 1:44:35.040 --> 1:44:40.800 subscribe to their Christian supremacist ideas of like traditional general rules. Um, 1:44:40.880 --> 1:44:42.880 because again it's it's it's not even all it's like, 1:44:42.960 --> 1:44:46.360 again there's not tons of trans people in general. Usually 1:44:46.479 --> 1:44:48.559 it's like, this is just gonna affect a lot of 1:44:48.560 --> 1:44:52.040 CIS kids as well, who maybe don't want to who don't, 1:44:52.120 --> 1:44:54.759 who don't, who don't, who who just want to dress cool. 1:44:55.080 --> 1:44:57.320 Like it's like it's it's, it's it doesn't even just 1:44:57.880 --> 1:45:01.479 it is is it does affect everybody. Um, So it 1:45:01.640 --> 1:45:04.240 is it's a it's a it's a it's a horrible 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:06.679 it's a horrible thing that is not even like there's 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:08.840 no escape from it, and it will affect you, whether 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:11.760 or not your trends or not. And I think it's 1:45:11.760 --> 1:45:14.320 important also to talk about the mandatory reporting stuff because 1:45:15.320 --> 1:45:18.599 even with managery reporting in general, like even like I've 1:45:18.640 --> 1:45:21.200 I've had things where I was in a school and 1:45:21.240 --> 1:45:23.200 my school essentially turned into a police state because there 1:45:23.200 --> 1:45:25.439 are people who I couldn't talk to about things because 1:45:25.479 --> 1:45:27.519 of things that happened to me that if if if 1:45:27.600 --> 1:45:29.880 if any of them heard it, and one time someone 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:32.000 did and had to literally beg them, like on my knees, 1:45:32.040 --> 1:45:34.240 not to report me, right, not not to report the 1:45:34.240 --> 1:45:36.519 thing that happened to me, because if you know, because 1:45:36.520 --> 1:45:38.880 because if if if that had been heard, like and 1:45:38.920 --> 1:45:41.120 if that had actually been reported, it would have you know, 1:45:41.160 --> 1:45:42.760 it would have started a enormous process and I would 1:45:42.800 --> 1:45:46.880 have had to you know, like the I I would 1:45:46.880 --> 1:45:48.960 have had to you know, deal with this like this 1:45:49.000 --> 1:45:54.080 is an institutionalized thing, and that like the absolute terror 1:45:54.840 --> 1:45:59.640 that this kind of stuff creates where you have to 1:46:00.439 --> 1:46:02.360 you know, you have to watch every single word that 1:46:02.400 --> 1:46:04.479 you say around all of the adults in your life 1:46:04.520 --> 1:46:07.599 because if you don't do it, they are going to 1:46:07.600 --> 1:46:10.920 report you. It is like the level of psychological terror 1:46:10.960 --> 1:46:14.280 you are inflicting on people is horrific. And then that 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:17.720 in and of itself just is a cost like and 1:46:17.800 --> 1:46:20.600 and it is something that is going to contribute to 1:46:20.960 --> 1:46:24.639 trans kids killing themselves. And it's it's just that simple. 1:46:24.640 --> 1:46:27.080 In that place, it is such a life and death issue, 1:46:27.240 --> 1:46:30.360 so you have to really be forced to go. Yeah, 1:46:30.439 --> 1:46:34.559 it goes into like it's very like ontological issue as well, um, 1:46:34.760 --> 1:46:37.120 and it deals with so many things around the nature 1:46:37.200 --> 1:46:39.599 of like being and what you're allowed to be inside 1:46:40.040 --> 1:46:44.160 as this societal construct. Um, and they're just trying to 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:47.559 make that impossible for so many people and make everything 1:46:47.640 --> 1:46:51.960 so limited in their very narrow version of what they 1:46:51.960 --> 1:46:55.680 want the world to be that makes them feel comfortable. Yeah. 1:46:55.760 --> 1:46:57.800 And then and you know, because because it's not it's 1:46:57.800 --> 1:46:59.320 not what the world is, they have to use violence 1:46:59.320 --> 1:47:03.559 to do it. Yeah. So because it's stuck, because that 1:47:03.640 --> 1:47:05.719 is the rule that that is, that is the rules 1:47:05.720 --> 1:47:08.760 that we're playing by. That is the game we're playing. Yeah, my, my, 1:47:08.880 --> 1:47:13.320 only the the the default response to be for those 1:47:13.360 --> 1:47:16.000 people is yeah, they need to they need to fix 1:47:16.000 --> 1:47:18.120 their hearts or die and just get out of the way. 1:47:18.320 --> 1:47:22.040 And because it's that's they already have that for us, 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:24.120 except they don't want us to fix their hearts. They 1:47:24.160 --> 1:47:26.679 just want us to die. So like we are way 1:47:26.680 --> 1:47:30.080 more empathetic than they are, um, because they can just 1:47:30.120 --> 1:47:32.680 not be transphobic. They cannot, they can they can just 1:47:32.720 --> 1:47:35.400 not do these things. Um. But if they're gonna keep 1:47:35.400 --> 1:47:39.160 doubling down, then yeah, well that's if if you want 1:47:39.160 --> 1:47:41.639 to play by their rules, then we need to start 1:47:41.640 --> 1:47:43.519 playing by their rules because they're not going to have 1:47:43.560 --> 1:47:46.320 if they're not going to change the rules. Then that 1:47:46.479 --> 1:47:48.000 is the that is the game that they want us 1:47:48.000 --> 1:47:54.080 to do. Um And again like actual like I want 1:47:54.080 --> 1:47:55.800 to I always I always every episoce like this, I 1:47:55.840 --> 1:47:57.600 always want to kind of end with like here are 1:47:57.640 --> 1:48:00.000 some steps that you can like take that are relatively easy. 1:48:00.000 --> 1:48:02.920 Seen it's it's it's challenging for these types of some 1:48:03.000 --> 1:48:05.639 sorts of things like like there yes, there is things 1:48:05.680 --> 1:48:08.120 you can do around you know, getting like making sure 1:48:08.160 --> 1:48:11.240 you're aware of what bills are being talked about in 1:48:11.320 --> 1:48:15.120 your local like your local area, contacting representatives to to 1:48:15.240 --> 1:48:18.320 do stuff, going to going to you know, either whether 1:48:18.320 --> 1:48:20.760 their school board meetings or stuff. But like a lot 1:48:20.800 --> 1:48:24.040 of the electoralist type of ideas around this feels always 1:48:24.120 --> 1:48:27.160 so inadequate, um and it feels always so fake. Um 1:48:27.920 --> 1:48:30.720 that you know, it's it's it is so much it 1:48:30.800 --> 1:48:32.680 feels a lot easier to that to like, you know, 1:48:33.080 --> 1:48:35.760 figure out different ways to actually help actual trans people 1:48:35.800 --> 1:48:38.960 in your area, um and give trans people money um 1:48:39.120 --> 1:48:42.040 and like because like that is often can be actually 1:48:42.080 --> 1:48:45.080 have a way more positive effects at least effects that 1:48:45.120 --> 1:48:47.639 are like observable. But like, but there are also ways 1:48:47.680 --> 1:48:49.560 to stop this type of legislation, Like there is that 1:48:49.640 --> 1:48:51.400 there is there, there is ways to do that, and 1:48:52.360 --> 1:48:54.080 I will I'll try to get into more of that 1:48:54.160 --> 1:48:56.200 kind of stuff as well once we get you know, 1:48:56.439 --> 1:48:59.519 our our week long of stuff about the war on 1:48:59.560 --> 1:49:02.880 transpol Um that will be upcoming probably sometime in this 1:49:03.080 --> 1:49:10.919 in this next month. Yeah. Um. Remember, folks, if anybody 1:49:11.080 --> 1:49:14.800 ever suggests doing something for children that isn't providing them 1:49:14.840 --> 1:49:17.599 with food or shelter, you should probably hit that person 1:49:17.760 --> 1:49:20.320 because they're probably trying to fund something up for somebody. 1:49:22.200 --> 1:49:27.640 It's nearly always. Don't trust anyone who says there we 1:49:27.760 --> 1:49:30.479 need to do something to protect children that they're lying 1:49:30.640 --> 1:49:34.320 to you. As a rule, they're lying to you. Um 1:49:41.479 --> 1:49:48.000 anyway you guys, Um, how's the boy that's Star Wars? 1:49:49.200 --> 1:49:52.439 Oh yeah, I love there's the There's the there's the 1:49:52.600 --> 1:49:55.160 the Obi WANs coming out. That'll be good. I am 1:49:55.200 --> 1:49:59.280 excited for the Obi WANs because it Speaking of speaking 1:49:59.280 --> 1:50:02.320 speaking of you and McGregor, a few months ago, I 1:50:02.360 --> 1:50:05.959 saw the film Velvet gold Mine starring you and McGregor, 1:50:06.479 --> 1:50:09.960 which is a wonderful like pseudo fictional film but about 1:50:10.120 --> 1:50:14.920 kind of the glam Rock era inside Britain's very very gay, 1:50:15.200 --> 1:50:17.280 very a whole bunch of a whole bunch of very 1:50:17.320 --> 1:50:20.400 good twink action. And there was one scene where, um, 1:50:21.520 --> 1:50:24.759 you McGregor's character, he's he's like, he's kind of based 1:50:24.840 --> 1:50:28.000 off one of the one of those types of music. People. 1:50:28.080 --> 1:50:33.320 I forget, I forget which one it is. Um, I think, people, 1:50:34.320 --> 1:50:36.000 I think, I think, I think. I think he's playing 1:50:36.160 --> 1:50:38.040 like a kind of a version of that. But there's 1:50:38.080 --> 1:50:40.080 one scene where he's doing a performance where he takes 1:50:40.080 --> 1:50:41.559 all of his clothes off on stage and you get 1:50:41.600 --> 1:50:46.240 to see you and McGregor's dick. Um, and yeah, you do. 1:50:46.880 --> 1:50:49.680 So if if people, if people want to see a 1:50:49.840 --> 1:50:53.400 kind of David Bowie esque film starring you and McGregor, 1:50:53.479 --> 1:50:55.880 it has. It has like a weird gay email, Christian 1:50:56.000 --> 1:50:58.479 bale as as a twink, and a whole bunch of 1:50:58.560 --> 1:51:02.400 other really really solved stuff. I would recommend watching Vella 1:51:02.439 --> 1:51:05.720 Guild Mine. It has, it has a lot of great stuff. Um, 1:51:05.880 --> 1:51:07.960 and you do very early in the film get to 1:51:08.000 --> 1:51:11.400 see you and McGregor's penis just flapping around on stage, 1:51:11.560 --> 1:51:15.840 and it is. It's pretty good. It's speaking of movies 1:51:15.880 --> 1:51:18.080 where you see a famous person's dick, if you want 1:51:18.120 --> 1:51:21.639 to see another famous Penis. The movie Galaxy Quest contains 1:51:21.760 --> 1:51:24.479 several shots of Tim Allen dong. I don't want to 1:51:24.479 --> 1:51:28.040 see Tim Allen's hanging wang. As someone who's seen both 1:51:28.080 --> 1:51:30.840 Galaxy Quest and Vellla gould Mine and who appreciates both films, 1:51:30.920 --> 1:51:36.000 Dearly You and You and McGregor is miles hotter than 1:51:36.320 --> 1:51:40.799 Tim Allen's dong. Shot is not hot. It's not pleasing. 1:51:40.840 --> 1:51:42.840 It is not supposed to be. He has hungover in 1:51:43.000 --> 1:51:47.920 his like bathrobe leaning over. But if you want, if 1:51:47.920 --> 1:51:49.840 you if you want to see if Rain or Fastbenders, 1:51:49.880 --> 1:51:53.120 Dick Germany and Autumn, Okay, that that's w I could, 1:51:53.120 --> 1:51:57.120 I could, I could do that very weird movie. However, alright, alright, 1:51:57.200 --> 1:51:59.639 if you were in terms of in terms of actionable 1:51:59.720 --> 1:52:02.479 things make you feel better, everyone go watch fell a 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:04.240 gold Mine because it has some day It has some 1:52:04.360 --> 1:52:08.240 very good gender play, has wonderful yeah, wonderful off around gender, 1:52:08.280 --> 1:52:11.240 wonderfu stuff around gayness, and yeah film from like the 1:52:11.400 --> 1:52:13.760 nineties where there was like lots of gay fucking and 1:52:13.800 --> 1:52:16.040 you're like, wow, how is this filmmate in the nineties, 1:52:16.840 --> 1:52:18.920 Because it is a whole bunch of like big name 1:52:18.960 --> 1:52:21.880 actors now who were like unknown at the time, all 1:52:21.960 --> 1:52:24.240 being gay and sucking each other and you're like, holy 1:52:24.320 --> 1:52:29.400 sh it. Alright, so yo, that is the uh, that's 1:52:29.600 --> 1:52:32.920 what we got that. There's your action items. Action items. 1:52:33.200 --> 1:52:36.280 Go watch, Go watch Velvet gold Mine. Make everyone you 1:52:36.320 --> 1:52:38.439 know watch Velvet gold Mine and I'll thank you. Feel 1:52:38.479 --> 1:52:41.760 good about gender. Take screen grabs of Ellan McGregor's dick, 1:52:41.840 --> 1:52:45.160 make Berner Twitter accounts and just start posting. Just just 1:52:45.439 --> 1:52:47.479 get it out there, get it out there. The world 1:52:47.560 --> 1:52:49.920 needs to know. Throw some of Tim Allen's dick out 1:52:49.960 --> 1:52:52.320 there too. Don't be don't be choosy. Stick it all 1:52:52.800 --> 1:52:56.080 all the dicks, all right, that's gonna be the day. 1:52:56.200 --> 1:53:11.840 That's that's the show. Yeah, welcome to it could happen 1:53:11.960 --> 1:53:16.120 here a podcast that is uh you know this this this, 1:53:16.240 --> 1:53:18.560 This is the podcast about the world falling apart. The 1:53:18.640 --> 1:53:22.320 world is in fact falling apart extremely quickly right now. 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:26.200 And I'm I'm your host, Christopher, and I am here 1:53:26.240 --> 1:53:28.720 today to talk about an immense occupying army with an 1:53:28.720 --> 1:53:31.799 extensive record of torture and extradicial killings. I am referring, 1:53:31.840 --> 1:53:35.960 of course, to the Chicago Police Department and with with 1:53:36.120 --> 1:53:40.400 me to talk about yet more just absolute horrors that 1:53:40.720 --> 1:53:45.240 this department has committed here and worldwide. I have Raven, 1:53:45.280 --> 1:53:48.280 who is a journalist of Chicago Free Media. Raven, welcome 1:53:48.320 --> 1:53:51.240 to the show and thank you for joining us. Hi, 1:53:51.520 --> 1:53:55.000 thank you for having me. Yeah, how how how have 1:53:55.080 --> 1:53:59.559 you been holding up in these uh oh boy things 1:53:59.600 --> 1:54:03.760 are go and bad? Yeah, you know we uh we 1:54:03.920 --> 1:54:07.479 have discussed doing this interview earlier this week. And I 1:54:07.520 --> 1:54:11.840 don't think either of us expected uh Russia to invade 1:54:11.920 --> 1:54:17.519 Ukraine last night. Yea was yeah and that wasn't even 1:54:17.600 --> 1:54:20.120 the yeah, it was the convoys about you know, this 1:54:20.160 --> 1:54:24.160 is this is a this is a time of chaos 1:54:24.280 --> 1:54:29.400 and death. Um. But I think it's important to understand 1:54:29.520 --> 1:54:31.720 that he has always has always been a time of 1:54:31.800 --> 1:54:36.880 chaos and death and yeah, and I think especially where 1:54:36.960 --> 1:54:40.120 the Chicago Police Department is concerned. Um, we've talked about 1:54:42.080 --> 1:54:44.520 we've we've talked about some of their more famous crimes 1:54:44.640 --> 1:54:47.320 on the show. But I wanted to have ravenon to 1:54:47.360 --> 1:54:50.760 talk about a police killing that I don't think got 1:54:51.000 --> 1:54:53.480 that much attention. I mean not even he gus I 1:54:53.560 --> 1:54:56.280 got a lot of in Chicago. But even as said 1:54:56.280 --> 1:54:58.080 of Chicago, I don't think it's as well known as 1:54:58.400 --> 1:55:01.360 some of the other police killings, and that's the killing 1:55:01.520 --> 1:55:07.120 of Rickiya Boyd. Um. Yeah, do you want to walk 1:55:07.240 --> 1:55:13.880 us through how basically what happened the night that uh 1:55:14.480 --> 1:55:17.920 don't I servant killed Rickuet Boyd? And yeah, we can 1:55:17.920 --> 1:55:21.720 start from there. Sure, sure, I mean there's some context 1:55:21.840 --> 1:55:26.040 here for sure about sort of the the way we 1:55:26.120 --> 1:55:30.160 ignore the murders of black women specifically. Um. And you know, 1:55:30.440 --> 1:55:35.120 Rickia Boyd was was murdered after sort of like the 1:55:35.200 --> 1:55:38.640 first wave of of national Black Lives Matter protests. So 1:55:38.800 --> 1:55:40.760 it wasn't like it wasn't on the radar, right that 1:55:40.840 --> 1:55:46.280 people weren't talking about police killing black people. Um, but there, 1:55:46.520 --> 1:55:48.400 you know, there is this long standing issue of course, 1:55:48.480 --> 1:55:52.240 was like the killings of black women specifically not getting 1:55:52.280 --> 1:55:56.720 as much attention, right, And this was just such a horrible, 1:55:57.560 --> 1:56:02.280 horrible incident that, like, I mean, looking at the details, 1:56:02.360 --> 1:56:03.840 even even though I live here and I was like 1:56:03.920 --> 1:56:06.160 around when it happened, and some of our other you know, 1:56:06.240 --> 1:56:09.600 the other journalists and are collective covered the protests and 1:56:09.800 --> 1:56:13.240 and and the the court drama and everything, it still 1:56:13.280 --> 1:56:17.840 just blows my mind. Um, the way this happened, and um, 1:56:19.000 --> 1:56:22.280 you know. Ultimately, the most important thing to take away 1:56:22.320 --> 1:56:24.600 from it is that her family never saw a justice. 1:56:24.880 --> 1:56:29.240 He walked away. He walked away from the incident and 1:56:30.800 --> 1:56:34.800 then went on to start training police in Latin America, 1:56:35.000 --> 1:56:38.240 which we can talk about also, so so, not only 1:56:38.320 --> 1:56:40.760 did this, did the Chicago police officer who was off 1:56:40.840 --> 1:56:44.840 duty with an unregistered gun murder and innocent twenty two 1:56:44.880 --> 1:56:47.240 year old black women hang out with her friends in 1:56:47.280 --> 1:56:51.080 a park. He then got a job with like a 1:56:51.160 --> 1:56:58.880 tactical training institute to travel to Honduras and train police there. Yeah, 1:56:58.920 --> 1:57:00.920 I think we can. We I think yeah we We 1:57:01.000 --> 1:57:05.000 definitely will be getting to the sort of international ankle 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:10.360 of this. But yeah, the explorer of American policing essentially. Yeah, 1:57:10.360 --> 1:57:13.080 but I guess for people who aren't familiar with what happened, 1:57:13.360 --> 1:57:18.080 UM can can cantu walk through that? Yeah? So so 1:57:18.320 --> 1:57:23.720 serving showed up UM at a park with an unregistered gun. 1:57:24.960 --> 1:57:30.000 Um he you know, witnesses reported that he smelled like 1:57:30.040 --> 1:57:32.600 alcohol that night. He may have been drinking. I don't 1:57:32.600 --> 1:57:34.920 know if that that was ever verified, but certainly wouldn't 1:57:34.920 --> 1:57:40.360 be surprising. Um showed up at this park to complain 1:57:40.440 --> 1:57:47.360 about a group of people making noise, and oneever key 1:57:47.400 --> 1:57:51.080 Avoids friends approached the car with a cell phone in 1:57:51.160 --> 1:57:54.480 his hand, which servant then would go on to say, 1:57:54.480 --> 1:57:58.720 I thought was a gun and started firing shots and 1:57:58.920 --> 1:58:04.000 shot Rocky avoiding the Um. He wasn't on duty, he 1:58:04.120 --> 1:58:07.840 wasn't actively policing. This was totally totally outside of the 1:58:07.880 --> 1:58:14.640 realm of duty incident, right, yeah. Um. And no weapon 1:58:14.760 --> 1:58:17.560 was ever recovered from the scene, nothing like that. I mean, 1:58:17.680 --> 1:58:22.720 it was there was no in no universe was there 1:58:22.760 --> 1:58:27.520 any justification for this. Right, It just defies, it defies 1:58:27.600 --> 1:58:31.080 logic like that that it could even happen this way. Um. 1:58:32.560 --> 1:58:35.600 And after it happened, you know, so not only did 1:58:35.640 --> 1:58:39.800 he kill Rickie avoid in this park, um, but after 1:58:39.880 --> 1:58:41.720 it happened, there was there was just a lot of 1:58:41.840 --> 1:58:43.760 like there were a lot of misteps in in the 1:58:43.920 --> 1:58:48.560 justice system. Um. And it has been I think, I 1:58:48.640 --> 1:58:51.680 want to say, like seventeen years at that point since 1:58:51.760 --> 1:58:58.000 a Chicago cop had actually been charged with with murder. Right, Um, 1:58:58.200 --> 1:59:00.160 so it has been a long time since there had 1:59:00.200 --> 1:59:09.880 been even any accountability. And um, basically the prosecutor there 1:59:10.000 --> 1:59:13.040 was something called a directed verdict, where the prosecutor essentially 1:59:13.960 --> 1:59:18.400 under charged him intentionally or we think it was intentionally 1:59:19.400 --> 1:59:23.600 um with with like reckless conduct and manslaughter, and the 1:59:23.720 --> 1:59:31.440 judge tossed the case because the judge was saying, you know, 1:59:31.640 --> 1:59:34.280 it didn't even meet the criteria for for reckless conduct 1:59:34.320 --> 1:59:37.280 because it was clearly first degree murder, and then he 1:59:37.280 --> 1:59:40.240 couldn't be tried again because of rules surrounding double jeopardy, 1:59:41.480 --> 1:59:46.280 which is like just a it's just like what like 1:59:46.560 --> 1:59:49.200 it's it's such like I was reading this like it's paffling, 1:59:49.320 --> 1:59:53.200 Like it's like this whole thing is like it's it's 1:59:53.320 --> 1:59:55.720 very like very very seemed very clearly have to fail. 1:59:55.760 --> 1:59:58.360 It's like, yeah, like we're we're gonna we're gonna intentionally 1:59:58.440 --> 2:00:00.960 have a case will reach right this guy with things 2:00:01.040 --> 2:00:03.600 that you that you just you cannot convictim of because 2:00:03.760 --> 2:00:06.840 like again it's it's it's not it's not like manslaughter. 2:00:07.040 --> 2:00:11.960 He just he drove up and shot her, right, He 2:00:12.160 --> 2:00:16.920 very very clearly with intention shot Ricky Boyd. And it 2:00:17.160 --> 2:00:18.760 very much seems like they planned this out that they 2:00:18.800 --> 2:00:21.160 were like and you know this is we talked about 2:00:21.160 --> 2:00:25.160 this on on their last CPD episode, Like prosecutors collaborate 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:29.720 with judges and the police constantly because that's just how 2:00:30.160 --> 2:00:35.360 the thing called the justice system works. Um. But like yeah, 2:00:35.440 --> 2:00:38.520 like this is like a parcripulally egregious example of them 2:00:38.600 --> 2:00:41.280 just setting up the case that they know that they 2:00:41.400 --> 2:00:46.440 just knew would fail exactly. And this is the same 2:00:46.520 --> 2:00:51.160 prosecutor who was ousted in the aftermath of the Laca 2:00:51.320 --> 2:00:55.680 McDonald murder. Um. You know, there were there were very 2:00:55.760 --> 2:00:59.280 large protests. Then there was a hashtag going on social media. 2:00:59.360 --> 2:01:01.320 Her name is in need to Alvarez. So the hashtag 2:01:01.480 --> 2:01:05.120 was by Anita Yeah, and and it was Anita Alphres. 2:01:05.200 --> 2:01:08.320 Like I think people outside the city probably didn't I 2:01:08.400 --> 2:01:12.400 don't know about much about this, but like this Anita 2:01:12.440 --> 2:01:17.000 Alvarez was like so hated that like like every like 2:01:17.880 --> 2:01:20.880 like everyone in the city basically worked together a runner 2:01:20.920 --> 2:01:23.880 out like you had, like you had like liberals and 2:01:23.880 --> 2:01:29.520 anarchist groups like working together like like like everyone in 2:01:29.560 --> 2:01:32.680 this say like all like the the the electoralists, nanci electoralists, 2:01:32.800 --> 2:01:36.480 like the people who just like have no politics basically whatsoever. 2:01:36.600 --> 2:01:37.800 Like it was it was just sort of it was 2:01:37.880 --> 2:01:44.480 just really incredible like coalition because she like just the 2:01:44.520 --> 2:01:48.040 stuff Anita Alfarez is doing is just so egregious that 2:01:48.440 --> 2:01:50.560 everyone was able to find a way to put aside 2:01:50.600 --> 2:01:54.320 their differences on just the logic of get her out 2:01:56.960 --> 2:02:00.120 right right. But you know, to know again, that was 2:02:00.160 --> 2:02:03.680 in the aftermath of the Lakoha McDonald's shooting, and you know, 2:02:03.920 --> 2:02:08.440 it wasn't it didn't what happened with Rickia Boyd wasn't 2:02:08.640 --> 2:02:12.520 enough for those large protests. And and this is not 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:15.800 to like Denni grade or demean the people who did 2:02:15.880 --> 2:02:19.040 come out in protests, because it's still like, like there 2:02:19.080 --> 2:02:22.160 were still protests, don't get me wrong, Like people showed 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:27.600 up for Rakiya. But the difference in people showing up 2:02:27.600 --> 2:02:31.800 for Rakia and people showing up for black men being shot, 2:02:31.880 --> 2:02:33.520 you know, like that that's something that black women have 2:02:33.640 --> 2:02:35.240 drawn attention to you. You know, they're like, why don't 2:02:35.240 --> 2:02:39.800 you care when we get murdered? Um? And it's just 2:02:40.000 --> 2:02:44.520 it's become this sort of um, you know, ongoing chance, 2:02:44.600 --> 2:02:47.760 Like if you go to any Chicago racial justice protests, 2:02:47.880 --> 2:02:50.720 you will hear people say, we do this for Lakwan, 2:02:51.000 --> 2:02:54.720 we do this for Rakiya, because it's just one of 2:02:54.800 --> 2:02:57.800 those names that, for whatever reason, based on what was 2:02:57.880 --> 2:02:59.720 going on in the media at the time, just like 2:03:00.640 --> 2:03:05.760 didn't make its way outside of Chicago very much. Um, 2:03:06.000 --> 2:03:08.520 and we're seeing a similar sort of situation right now. 2:03:08.680 --> 2:03:11.720 Is what happened with the mirrorlock in Minneapolis. Right Like, 2:03:12.680 --> 2:03:15.920 that was something where I think a lot of us thought, Okay, wow, 2:03:16.120 --> 2:03:19.800 this this is gonna this is going to explode. You know, 2:03:20.080 --> 2:03:23.160 this is such just a horrible miscarriage of justice, Like 2:03:23.240 --> 2:03:26.920 how could this happen? Um, surely there will be massive 2:03:27.040 --> 2:03:29.560 protests again, you know, something like that. And of course, 2:03:30.560 --> 2:03:32.880 you know, Minneapolis was out there. We had like some 2:03:33.000 --> 2:03:36.680 small actions here in Chicago but didn't really catch fire, 2:03:36.840 --> 2:03:39.400 so to say. I mean, I think that there's always 2:03:39.400 --> 2:03:42.280 sort of cycles of this where you know that there's 2:03:42.280 --> 2:03:44.800 cycles where you get these massive protesting cycles that you 2:03:44.920 --> 2:03:47.560 don't but you know, And I think this is one 2:03:47.560 --> 2:03:49.040 of the things with that you can look at with 2:03:49.080 --> 2:03:53.000 the Cube Boy too, where it's it's like, regardless of 2:03:53.080 --> 2:03:57.080 whether people are in the streets or not, the killing continues. 2:03:57.960 --> 2:04:01.200 And yeah, and I think that's just just sort of 2:04:01.480 --> 2:04:04.640 that's an extremely grim thing to live with, but that 2:04:04.920 --> 2:04:07.760 that just you know that that that's just what the 2:04:07.840 --> 2:04:11.160 police is, right and until you know, until they are 2:04:11.240 --> 2:04:14.320 actually stopped, You're just going to keep getting this cycle 2:04:14.520 --> 2:04:18.600 of I don't even know if select selective outrage is 2:04:18.640 --> 2:04:22.240 the right word, but you get these cycles of people 2:04:22.280 --> 2:04:24.600 who get murdered and there's this protests and people who 2:04:24.640 --> 2:04:30.320 get murdered and get forgotten and yeah, yeah, yeah, and 2:04:30.560 --> 2:04:35.200 and it really does seem to be kind of you know, 2:04:35.360 --> 2:04:37.840 there's a lot of layers to it, Like like obviously 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:41.200 the misogyny against black women is part of it, and 2:04:41.320 --> 2:04:45.800 I think the media just you know, is a part 2:04:45.840 --> 2:04:48.680 of it too. Like I mean, I'm a part of 2:04:48.720 --> 2:04:51.320 the media in a sense, but we're alternative media, so 2:04:51.400 --> 2:04:53.400 it's a little bit different. But you know, like there 2:04:53.440 --> 2:04:56.720 are there are choices made behind closed doors about what 2:04:57.000 --> 2:05:03.760 stories to follow and and amplify. And um, I will say, 2:05:03.920 --> 2:05:07.400 you know what I will say is I think because 2:05:07.440 --> 2:05:10.120 of what happened in I think there's a lot more 2:05:10.640 --> 2:05:16.040 scrutiny on Chicago police now, at least more mainstream scrutiny 2:05:16.080 --> 2:05:22.760 of them than there was back in when Rikiya was murdered. Um. 2:05:23.080 --> 2:05:25.360 And that's not to say that we're doing enough because 2:05:25.400 --> 2:05:28.600 we have, because we absolutely are not. But I I 2:05:28.720 --> 2:05:33.520 think did in some way, you know, push things just 2:05:33.720 --> 2:05:35.840 like a little bit further if that makes sense that 2:05:36.040 --> 2:05:39.600 you know, there are some more liberal mainstream types of 2:05:39.760 --> 2:05:44.320 people talking about the horrors of Chicago policing and and 2:05:44.400 --> 2:05:45.880 all of that. But you know, when it comes to 2:05:45.960 --> 2:05:51.480 Chicago police, like I just they're they're apparatus is so massive, 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:53.960 like not just from like the funding they get, but 2:05:54.080 --> 2:05:58.200 like their media and pr you know, the prosecutors and 2:05:58.240 --> 2:06:01.560 the judges like you mentioned are absolutely part of the 2:06:01.680 --> 2:06:07.080 policing apparatus. Like they're not separate, right, It's prosecutors are cops. 2:06:07.400 --> 2:06:09.920 And we have a prosecutor for a mayor and she 2:06:10.160 --> 2:06:12.800 is a cop like like and and you know it 2:06:12.960 --> 2:06:15.840 was black youth who tried so hard to speak up 2:06:15.840 --> 2:06:18.200 about this before she was elected and and said like 2:06:18.360 --> 2:06:21.960 Lori Lightfoot is a cop, and people didn't listen to them. 2:06:23.680 --> 2:06:25.840 And that's where we're at now, where we have this 2:06:27.000 --> 2:06:30.520 this prosecutor for a mayor who's because of her background, 2:06:30.600 --> 2:06:33.080 like she can only view things through a punitive lens, 2:06:33.680 --> 2:06:37.680 Like her answer to everything is just punishment. How can 2:06:37.760 --> 2:06:41.960 we how can we punish people? Yeah? The only things 2:06:42.000 --> 2:06:43.880 she was trying to do recently what she wanted to 2:06:43.960 --> 2:06:50.680 do these like basically this measure where they called it 2:06:50.760 --> 2:06:53.360 like an anti gang funding thing, but it was basically 2:06:53.480 --> 2:06:55.880 just like if there's a group of people, you can 2:06:55.920 --> 2:06:57.920 just take the cops and just take money from them. 2:06:59.200 --> 2:07:01.560 And it was like it was just an incredible things 2:07:01.600 --> 2:07:03.880 like it was it was you know, part of what's 2:07:03.880 --> 2:07:05.640 going on here is that I've talked about this before, 2:07:05.760 --> 2:07:09.760 but like Lori Lightfoot is you know, at the time, 2:07:10.240 --> 2:07:12.200 I think people voted for her partially because they just 2:07:12.240 --> 2:07:15.120 didn't listen and the North Siders were just like, oh hey, 2:07:15.280 --> 2:07:19.280 look it's Loria Lightfoot. But then you know, like part 2:07:19.360 --> 2:07:21.240 part of it was she she she ran as like 2:07:21.280 --> 2:07:23.760 the anti machine candidate, and it was like, no, she's 2:07:24.480 --> 2:07:27.320 just a cop. But like I think the just thing is, 2:07:27.360 --> 2:07:30.880 you know, like she she's like incredibly widely hated, like 2:07:31.040 --> 2:07:34.360 to the point where like you know, the Chicago City 2:07:34.440 --> 2:07:38.440 Council is like not notably a a anti police body, 2:07:38.840 --> 2:07:42.120 but like even the city council was like, you can't 2:07:42.200 --> 2:07:46.120 do this, Like then they you know, they actually blocked 2:07:46.960 --> 2:07:49.080 I think if if if, if I'm if I'm getting 2:07:49.120 --> 2:07:50.880 my my my facts right on this, Like I'm pretty 2:07:50.880 --> 2:07:53.880 I'm pretty sure they blocked life with reposal because it 2:07:53.960 --> 2:07:58.400 was just like, yeah, and that that's been one of 2:07:58.440 --> 2:08:00.280 the things that was like we've had a cop pool 2:08:00.440 --> 2:08:05.080 of like weird kind of like attempts to reign the 2:08:05.160 --> 2:08:08.400 CPD in, but they're not really happening because of like 2:08:09.040 --> 2:08:11.920 anti police sentiment. They're basically happening because the city council's 2:08:11.960 --> 2:08:17.840 feuding with a mayor. Weird. Yeah, and and you know, 2:08:18.040 --> 2:08:23.440 I've seen it, like it's it's she's such an god. 2:08:23.680 --> 2:08:27.160 I could the figure of Mayor lor lor lifebook. I mean, 2:08:27.200 --> 2:08:30.040 it just makes no sense, right because she's hated by 2:08:31.000 --> 2:08:34.120 people on the left, you know, who obviously are anti police. Thing, 2:08:34.320 --> 2:08:43.440 she's also hated by the police, ye, just like yeah, 2:08:43.640 --> 2:08:45.360 she I mean, if you go through any of the 2:08:45.440 --> 2:08:49.880 conservative like cop blogs and Twitter accounts, you know, Chicago 2:08:49.920 --> 2:08:52.840 police are very active on social media, right, which is 2:08:53.680 --> 2:08:56.160 you know, it's whole a whole thing in of itself. 2:08:57.360 --> 2:09:00.280 These people, you know, they shouldn't be pope broad asking 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:04.160 the things on social media that they do. But she's 2:09:04.280 --> 2:09:09.120 universally hated by everyone at this point. Um, So you know, 2:09:11.600 --> 2:09:13.600 it's just been a really it's been a really tough 2:09:13.680 --> 2:09:18.360 couple of years for Chicago since the riots, especially because 2:09:19.640 --> 2:09:23.400 Chicago just the word has become so loaded in the 2:09:23.520 --> 2:09:29.000 national media, right, like it's become this this this racist 2:09:29.080 --> 2:09:33.400 boogeyman essentially for like, what what could happen to your 2:09:33.440 --> 2:09:38.160 city if if the woke mobs successfully defund police or 2:09:38.360 --> 2:09:42.840 you know whatever, which is completely at odds with reality 2:09:43.000 --> 2:09:45.600 because at no point have we defunded the police, Like 2:09:45.640 --> 2:09:48.360 they just keeps increasing. Yeah, like what what's what? What's 2:09:48.360 --> 2:09:51.680 their budget is? Like, like is it I want to 2:09:51.720 --> 2:09:54.120 say it's the total budget, but I think that's low. 2:09:55.640 --> 2:09:57.920 It's something like that. I mean it's billions of dollars, 2:09:58.040 --> 2:10:03.080 Like it's we're pumping billions of dollars into this standing 2:10:03.280 --> 2:10:09.320 army that is that is basically occupying of Trigo's budget 2:10:09.640 --> 2:10:16.760 goes to the police department, right, right, And you know 2:10:16.840 --> 2:10:21.800 all of that money could obviously be spent on other things, 2:10:22.000 --> 2:10:26.040 and and we know, like we know what reduces crime. 2:10:26.560 --> 2:10:29.720 I mean, obviously we could get into like the category 2:10:29.800 --> 2:10:31.760 of what even is a crime? Right, Like there are 2:10:31.960 --> 2:10:35.320 certainly lots of things that shouldn't be labeled crimes that 2:10:35.400 --> 2:10:42.280 are but we know that communities with resources don't have 2:10:42.560 --> 2:10:47.120 significant violent crime problems, Like we know that lifting people 2:10:47.160 --> 2:10:51.200 out of poverty and giving them opportunities and homes and 2:10:51.280 --> 2:10:54.080 all of these things, like we know that that reduces 2:10:54.200 --> 2:11:00.000 in our personal harm, and instead we just keep looking 2:11:00.120 --> 2:11:03.560 and everything through this lens of punishment and how punitive 2:11:03.640 --> 2:11:11.520 we can be. Yeah. Yeah, and it's been I don't know. 2:11:14.600 --> 2:11:18.160 The Chicago Police Department is just it's just an absolute 2:11:18.240 --> 2:11:22.680 horror show. Um. And it's a horror show. And and 2:11:22.800 --> 2:11:24.800 they're also like it's a horror show not just because 2:11:24.840 --> 2:11:28.840 of how evil they are, but also because they're incompetent, right, Yeah, 2:11:29.920 --> 2:11:32.440 Like you've got them doing all of these really bad 2:11:32.520 --> 2:11:36.240 things and then they also just like struggle to to 2:11:36.560 --> 2:11:39.960 cover up their crime, and then they're messing up like 2:11:40.080 --> 2:11:46.360 along the way at every step. Yeah, and it's yeah, 2:11:47.880 --> 2:11:52.040 I don't know, they have the CPDS Like it's they 2:11:52.120 --> 2:11:53.440 have this kind of you know, I mean, I don't know, 2:11:53.440 --> 2:11:55.360 I don't know how you exactly unique it is. But 2:11:55.480 --> 2:11:58.440 but I think going back to our sort of theory 2:11:58.560 --> 2:12:00.520 of like every police department has one thing that they're 2:12:00.560 --> 2:12:02.720 really good at it the CBD has this unique combination 2:12:02.800 --> 2:12:06.480 of like incompetence, torture, and crime that they do. That's 2:12:06.560 --> 2:12:09.280 like I think so, I think sets it apart from 2:12:09.320 --> 2:12:14.640 a lot of other UM police departments. I think that's 2:12:14.680 --> 2:12:17.360 a good place to sort of jump off into the 2:12:17.440 --> 2:12:20.680 second I guess part of the rickyed Boyd story, or 2:12:21.120 --> 2:12:23.400 really it seems to be the Ricked Boyd story. It's 2:12:23.440 --> 2:12:28.280 the story of Dante Servant, which is his role in 2:12:29.440 --> 2:12:37.720 essentially exporting American policing and the horrors of UM, the 2:12:37.760 --> 2:12:39.720 horrors of the American police system, the horrors of sort 2:12:39.760 --> 2:12:43.000 of American imperialism to other countries, because it is not 2:12:43.200 --> 2:12:46.160 enough that the CPD murders people here, They've also got 2:12:46.280 --> 2:12:50.640 to do it other places, right, right, And and so 2:12:50.800 --> 2:12:53.920 there was a there was a Chicago Reader piece written 2:12:53.960 --> 2:13:00.120 about this UM back in February. Servants not mentioned in it, 2:13:00.440 --> 2:13:03.160 but it was a really good story. I recommend people 2:13:03.200 --> 2:13:05.320 look it up because, you know, some of this research 2:13:05.520 --> 2:13:08.280 is not like my original research, right, it's it stems 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:11.280 from the research that people with the Invisible Institute did. 2:13:11.400 --> 2:13:17.560 But essentially, you know, there are Chicago police officers, and 2:13:17.800 --> 2:13:21.360 there's one in particular. His name is Aaron Cunningham. He's 2:13:21.400 --> 2:13:27.400 the man who UM founded this Tactical Training Institute UM 2:13:28.680 --> 2:13:32.120 that go you know, they go abroad, like they go 2:13:32.200 --> 2:13:37.160 to different countries and and it's private, privately funded, so 2:13:37.320 --> 2:13:41.480 they claim to be working with with the says, and 2:13:41.760 --> 2:13:44.040 there's a lot of like weird gray area there where 2:13:44.040 --> 2:13:46.120 there's not a lot of oversight and nobody really knows, 2:13:46.280 --> 2:13:49.960 like are you getting federal money to do this? Are 2:13:50.040 --> 2:13:52.480 you just saying you are? Like, like what's the deal? Right? 2:13:52.560 --> 2:13:55.480 But the Cunningham was essentially like a crooked cop who 2:13:56.520 --> 2:13:59.839 funded this tactical training institute so that they go oversee 2:14:00.160 --> 2:14:07.360 to underresourced countries with underresourced police departments and train them 2:14:07.800 --> 2:14:11.520 and how to be police. They train them in crowd control, 2:14:11.600 --> 2:14:15.920 they train them in like narcotics and drug investigations, they 2:14:16.000 --> 2:14:19.400 train them in like gang warfare, you know, all of 2:14:19.520 --> 2:14:24.000 these things, right, And these are countries that have tremendous 2:14:24.080 --> 2:14:28.800 issues with like you know, outright warfare going on between 2:14:29.440 --> 2:14:34.400 gangs and the existing police forces. Right, So they're in 2:14:34.600 --> 2:14:37.520 desperate need of of of aid, of assistance, and and 2:14:37.640 --> 2:14:40.440 of course, like some of these conflicts that are going 2:14:40.480 --> 2:14:45.040 on stem from American imperialism to begin with, right, So 2:14:45.160 --> 2:14:48.880 it's like we caused the problems, then we're gonna come 2:14:48.920 --> 2:14:52.960 in and like send a bunch of cops over who, 2:14:53.120 --> 2:14:56.200 like you know, have extensive misconduct records in their in 2:14:56.240 --> 2:14:58.000 their home cities, and some of them have even just 2:14:58.120 --> 2:15:00.840 like murdered innocent women in the park. Yeah, and we're 2:15:00.880 --> 2:15:02.840 going to have them train your guys into how to 2:15:02.920 --> 2:15:10.040 be cops. Yeah, and and yeah, you know that that 2:15:10.240 --> 2:15:12.760 goes about as well as you would expect it to, 2:15:13.160 --> 2:15:15.640 which is one of one of the things that the 2:15:15.720 --> 2:15:19.920 reader piece talks about is so one of they these 2:15:19.920 --> 2:15:22.200 guys keep brought in to train a bunch of cops. 2:15:22.240 --> 2:15:24.680 Now Salvador after the Al SALVADORI police do a bunch 2:15:24.720 --> 2:15:27.680 of horrible massacres, and then they trained these cops, and 2:15:27.760 --> 2:15:30.480 then the cops immediately turned around and also again do 2:15:30.600 --> 2:15:34.640 a bunch of horrible massacres. And it's it's this, it's this, 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:40.360 you know. I mean, I I don't want to de 2:15:40.480 --> 2:15:45.879 emphasize the fact that like the like Al Salvador for example, 2:15:46.000 --> 2:15:48.560 like is a place that has its own like native 2:15:48.920 --> 2:15:50.880 right wing like it had there, like it has his 2:15:50.960 --> 2:15:53.320 own SALVADORI like right wing death squads, right and they 2:15:53.400 --> 2:15:54.960 they you know, in the back by the CIA. But 2:15:55.080 --> 2:16:00.960 like you and I don't want to like under my underplay, 2:16:01.760 --> 2:16:06.280 just how violent, just like the local reactionaries are because 2:16:06.400 --> 2:16:08.000 it's it's not it's like it's it's it's it's not 2:16:08.120 --> 2:16:11.720 like they wouldn't also be death squads if the US 2:16:11.880 --> 2:16:15.760 wasn't there, but like the US, you know, and the 2:16:15.880 --> 2:16:18.880 chocol Police Apartment sending people to train them is making 2:16:18.960 --> 2:16:24.440 them even worse. And it's yeah, yeah, And and every 2:16:24.520 --> 2:16:28.640 place has their own right wing reactionaries, right like we're 2:16:28.680 --> 2:16:32.680 seeing right now. To bring to loop everything together and 2:16:32.840 --> 2:16:34.440 just bring us back to like what's going on with 2:16:34.600 --> 2:16:40.160 Ukraine and Russia, Um, it's related, you know, like both 2:16:40.240 --> 2:16:44.480 sides of this conflict of their own reactionary right wing forces, 2:16:44.680 --> 2:16:49.039 right yeah, And anywhere you go around the world, that's 2:16:49.040 --> 2:16:54.120 going to be a sting and empires like the American 2:16:54.160 --> 2:16:58.840 Empire or the Russian Empire are or the Al Salvador Empire, 2:16:58.879 --> 2:17:01.440 you know, whatever empire, they're going to be looking for 2:17:01.520 --> 2:17:07.680 ways to take advantage of those forces. And I think 2:17:07.720 --> 2:17:12.640 that what I think is important, Like one of the 2:17:12.640 --> 2:17:15.120 things I think is important about this politically is to 2:17:15.280 --> 2:17:19.080 understand that there is a like there there there is 2:17:19.080 --> 2:17:23.000 an incredible amount of international solidarity between cops right, they 2:17:23.120 --> 2:17:25.920 have you know, like that you know, I've seen I 2:17:26.000 --> 2:17:28.400 think there's a book called The Thin Blue Line International, 2:17:28.480 --> 2:17:30.160 but it's it's yeah, I mean, that's that's that's a 2:17:30.280 --> 2:17:34.200 thing like you see this basically where the cops, like 2:17:35.040 --> 2:17:37.840 the comps know which side they're on and it's the 2:17:37.920 --> 2:17:41.199 side of the other cops. And I think that's something 2:17:41.320 --> 2:17:43.400 that that confuses a lot of people because you can 2:17:43.480 --> 2:17:45.920 thinks like for example, like like that's the Chinese police, right, 2:17:45.959 --> 2:17:49.440 like the Chinese police like go like we're trained by 2:17:49.560 --> 2:17:51.840 I think, I mean what you know, because the like 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:53.720 the Chinese place in Hong Kong for example, like that 2:17:53.920 --> 2:17:57.280 that police force like is still literally just colonial British 2:17:57.280 --> 2:17:59.360 police force. They just they didn't even like they didn't 2:17:59.400 --> 2:18:02.520 even bring in new people. They just like promoted a 2:18:02.600 --> 2:18:05.840 new person who was a British colonial police officer and 2:18:05.959 --> 2:18:08.320 then made them the new head of the police. And 2:18:08.440 --> 2:18:11.520 then you know, and those those and those cops are 2:18:11.640 --> 2:18:15.760 also trained by the trained by American comps trainer British cops. Uh, 2:18:16.120 --> 2:18:18.640 they're trained a lot by Israeli cops. Um this and 2:18:18.680 --> 2:18:20.400 this is this is this is the same thing. You know, 2:18:20.440 --> 2:18:22.080 it is the same thing with with with with the 2:18:22.280 --> 2:18:25.360 like the you know, like this this is the sort 2:18:25.400 --> 2:18:27.920 of the same effect that gets you like Erik Prince, 2:18:28.480 --> 2:18:32.240 like you know, being being like hired by the CCP 2:18:32.360 --> 2:18:35.560 to run stuff and change on like it's it's there's 2:18:35.680 --> 2:18:41.680 there's an incredible right wing sort of militarist comp alliance 2:18:41.840 --> 2:18:45.920 that go just you know, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. 2:18:46.000 --> 2:18:50.120 It's a kind of international police solidarity that scrambles a 2:18:50.200 --> 2:18:52.840 lot of the sort of perceptions of what people think, 2:18:53.240 --> 2:18:56.280 like like what what how how people try to think 2:18:56.320 --> 2:19:01.360 about the world because yeah, and you know, and like fundamentally, 2:19:01.440 --> 2:19:07.080 like the basis they have is the defensive property and 2:19:07.200 --> 2:19:11.480 the defensive sort of the like the I usually call 2:19:11.560 --> 2:19:16.080 like the the global white supremacist regime. And they all know, 2:19:16.440 --> 2:19:18.920 you know, when when when an American cop Costa Salvador, 2:19:19.000 --> 2:19:21.040 like they know which side they're on. They're on the 2:19:21.120 --> 2:19:25.200 cops side, and it's and you know, and and they share, 2:19:25.560 --> 2:19:28.200 they share information, they share weapons, they share tactics, they 2:19:28.280 --> 2:19:35.000 share are you just literally people, they share training and yeah, 2:19:35.080 --> 2:19:37.920 and and of course because again it's the cpd uh, 2:19:38.480 --> 2:19:44.280 they shared Dante servant Yeah and so he he I 2:19:44.520 --> 2:19:48.680 you know, apparently at some point very shortly after the 2:19:48.800 --> 2:19:51.720 murder of Rakia Boyd. It looks like, based on what 2:19:51.760 --> 2:19:53.760 I've seen on his social media and what I pieced 2:19:53.760 --> 2:19:57.520 together from from his employment history, it looks like he 2:19:57.640 --> 2:20:01.760 had begun working with one of these tactical training institutes 2:20:02.600 --> 2:20:07.680 right before the murder. And then he murdered Rickie Avoid 2:20:08.320 --> 2:20:10.000 And I mean, I guess technically I'm not supposed to 2:20:10.080 --> 2:20:15.360 use the word murder, but you know, yeah, no fucking 2:20:15.400 --> 2:20:20.160 I mean murdered, and so, so he murdered Rickie Avoid, 2:20:20.360 --> 2:20:25.040 and then everything happened with like going through courts, and 2:20:25.440 --> 2:20:30.039 he walked away without being charged or imprisoned. I mean, 2:20:30.120 --> 2:20:34.800 he was charged, but without being convicted or imprisoned. Then, um, 2:20:35.440 --> 2:20:40.040 the police board, you know, recommended his firing, but he 2:20:40.200 --> 2:20:43.680 resigned two days before, like he was supposed to have 2:20:43.720 --> 2:20:50.920 his hearing, so he still gets a pension. I'm pretty 2:20:50.959 --> 2:20:55.760 sure that's how that word um yeah, and so he 2:20:55.879 --> 2:20:58.880 gets yeah. I don't I thought to confirm that, but 2:20:58.879 --> 2:21:01.439 I'm pretty sure he gets the punch. So he resigns, 2:21:01.560 --> 2:21:05.600 and then at some point after he resigned, he starts 2:21:06.080 --> 2:21:11.040 posting to social media about his trips to Honduras, and 2:21:11.840 --> 2:21:15.000 you know it's posting photos of of like hanging out 2:21:15.040 --> 2:21:17.840 in the bar with with the cops down there and 2:21:18.040 --> 2:21:21.080 and kind of just all of that. And this is 2:21:21.120 --> 2:21:23.240 not like public information, like it's he has like a 2:21:23.360 --> 2:21:27.480 LinkedIn page where he's like lived the things he's been doing. 2:21:27.560 --> 2:21:30.320 Like like this is completely public. I don't know like 2:21:31.200 --> 2:21:34.920 why nobody knows about it or has talked about it. Um. 2:21:35.680 --> 2:21:37.520 But you know that also I think just comes back 2:21:37.560 --> 2:21:40.720 to this murder kind of flying under the national radar 2:21:40.800 --> 2:21:46.240 a lot um. And so you know, we don't know 2:21:47.480 --> 2:21:53.960 what company or organization he's there with. Um. It doesn't 2:21:54.200 --> 2:21:57.480 say he's with International Tactical Training Association, which is the 2:21:57.840 --> 2:22:00.959 the Chicago based group led by Aaron Uningham and his wife. 2:22:02.040 --> 2:22:04.480 My guest would be it's that group, because that's the 2:22:04.520 --> 2:22:06.960 big one out of face out of Chicago. But you know, 2:22:07.080 --> 2:22:10.560 like we can't I can't prove it could be another 2:22:10.640 --> 2:22:12.680 It could be another right wing tactical training group that's 2:22:12.879 --> 2:22:16.200 trained de squads. Yeah. And that's the thing, right, is 2:22:16.240 --> 2:22:19.960 that this is not just happening here in Chicago. So 2:22:20.120 --> 2:22:24.160 like there are these tactical training groups all over and 2:22:25.800 --> 2:22:29.240 there are a number of US based ones started by 2:22:30.160 --> 2:22:34.840 different police officers from different departments because it's kind of 2:22:34.959 --> 2:22:37.600 like a career path for them in a sense, because 2:22:37.840 --> 2:22:41.760 it's a thing they can do once they retire. You 2:22:41.840 --> 2:22:45.279 get and it's a moneymaker. You hold these these tactical 2:22:45.360 --> 2:22:48.960 training seminars, and so a number of them are domestically based, right, 2:22:49.040 --> 2:22:51.280 Like they're not necessarily going overseas, but what they're doing 2:22:51.440 --> 2:22:55.360 is there. They're having these seminars and their training other 2:22:55.520 --> 2:23:00.400 police officers in like certain things. Like some of them 2:23:00.480 --> 2:23:02.560 might be like an afternoon session where you go and 2:23:02.640 --> 2:23:06.160 you learn about like you know, firearms safety or something. 2:23:06.879 --> 2:23:10.240 Then there might be like larger ones where you go 2:23:10.680 --> 2:23:13.800 and you like stay and camp out for like three 2:23:13.879 --> 2:23:20.080 days and you practice like ambushing guerrilla gangs in the 2:23:20.200 --> 2:23:24.840 jungle or something like that. Um And then a lot 2:23:24.920 --> 2:23:29.039 of them are are based around guns safety and firearms training, 2:23:29.120 --> 2:23:31.160 and so many of those are open as of the 2:23:31.200 --> 2:23:35.400 general public. It depends. Some of these are like only 2:23:35.520 --> 2:23:37.480 for other cops or law enforcement, and you have to 2:23:37.560 --> 2:23:40.360 like show I D Or military and you have to 2:23:40.600 --> 2:23:45.080 prove um that you're affiliated with police and military. Some 2:23:45.280 --> 2:23:46.880 of them are open to the public and you just 2:23:47.000 --> 2:23:52.840 have to have like a firearms cart. So that's problematic 2:23:53.600 --> 2:23:57.080 for one reason because we found that in the aftermath 2:23:57.280 --> 2:24:02.320 of the January six Capital riot that a number of 2:24:02.720 --> 2:24:07.960 a number of the Capital rioters did attend like firearms 2:24:08.040 --> 2:24:15.560 training classes, tactical training classes in just various sort of locations. 2:24:18.280 --> 2:24:24.320 So this is a way for officers who have left 2:24:24.360 --> 2:24:29.520 the force for whatever reason to then have a captive audience. 2:24:30.280 --> 2:24:34.879 And Yeah, they're teaching them how to like shoot guns 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:38.960 and you know, follow them more like specific sort of 2:24:39.040 --> 2:24:42.440 things like that, But what kind of conversations are they having, 2:24:43.440 --> 2:24:47.280 Like what kind of ideology is being espoused, what kind 2:24:47.320 --> 2:24:51.040 of other people are showing up to these meetings, and 2:24:51.200 --> 2:24:54.320 what are they talking about? What groups are they recruiting for, 2:24:54.480 --> 2:24:57.720 what are their affiliations. Yeah, and I think and I 2:24:57.760 --> 2:25:00.840 think that that's something that's important to think about and 2:25:00.920 --> 2:25:04.440 also to you know, have have more generation of journalists 2:25:04.480 --> 2:25:07.480 look into because you know, when when you look at 2:25:07.560 --> 2:25:09.879 these I mean like we know, we we we've had 2:25:10.080 --> 2:25:12.360 stories like this before, right, Like I mean, this is 2:25:12.360 --> 2:25:17.760 a lot of how for example, like the Taiwanese Special Forces, 2:25:17.800 --> 2:25:21.520 for example, UH spent an enormous amount of PARST Special 2:25:21.560 --> 2:25:23.600 Force apecially just the Taiwanese armies spent an enormous amount 2:25:23.600 --> 2:25:26.920 of time doing stuff very similar to this, and you know, 2:25:27.040 --> 2:25:29.280 the the product of that was and this is a 2:25:30.160 --> 2:25:33.560 this is cold warrior um. They're doing this the seventies 2:25:33.600 --> 2:25:37.000 and during this in the eighties, some excet the sixties, um, 2:25:37.440 --> 2:25:39.920 you know, and and I mean the product of this 2:25:40.440 --> 2:25:44.480 is like arena. The product of this is you know, 2:25:44.720 --> 2:25:48.800 the like the like one of the people they trained 2:25:48.840 --> 2:25:52.240 did the Almozete massacre, like and that that that kind 2:25:52.280 --> 2:25:55.360 of stuff. You can trace these these influence networks, and 2:25:55.360 --> 2:25:57.240 you can trace these sort of I mean a lot 2:25:57.280 --> 2:26:00.200 of this is i mean literally just funded by weird cults, um. 2:26:00.360 --> 2:26:02.039 But you can you know, you can trace these different 2:26:02.040 --> 2:26:04.960 sort of paramilitary and intelligence inflence networks, and what you 2:26:05.160 --> 2:26:08.600 see at the end of them is like a lot 2:26:08.680 --> 2:26:11.280 of the time, it's just a bunch of fascists, and 2:26:11.480 --> 2:26:13.400 it's a bunch it's a bunch of fascists doing coups 2:26:14.400 --> 2:26:17.440 and you know, like in some sense like yeah, this 2:26:17.600 --> 2:26:20.840 is this is a kind of like you know, like 2:26:21.000 --> 2:26:24.840 liberal democracy has this sort of problem, right, which is 2:26:24.879 --> 2:26:28.200 in order for liberal democracy too, you know, function as 2:26:28.200 --> 2:26:30.320 a liberal democracy, you have to have cops. And that 2:26:30.440 --> 2:26:33.800 means that you're you know, you are producing domestically and 2:26:33.879 --> 2:26:38.920 internationally a group of just ferocious, bloodthirsty right wing murderers, 2:26:39.560 --> 2:26:41.360 and you're you're giving them, sayuthority, and you're giving them 2:26:41.360 --> 2:26:45.279 all these training and weapons. And you know the product 2:26:45.360 --> 2:26:47.600 of that is they do what they're training to do, 2:26:47.680 --> 2:26:49.520 which is they kill people, they torture people, They train 2:26:49.600 --> 2:26:51.640 other people how to do this, and yeah, you get 2:26:51.720 --> 2:26:55.160 these these cascading series of effects that lead you know, 2:26:55.160 --> 2:26:57.080 a bunch of people taking these classes January six, They 2:26:57.160 --> 2:26:59.480 lead them to coups all over the world. They lead 2:26:59.520 --> 2:27:02.040 in the desk all to love the world. This has 2:27:02.080 --> 2:27:04.560 been It Could Happen Here Join us tomorrow for part 2:27:04.600 --> 2:27:07.039 two of our interview with Raven. You can find us 2:27:07.080 --> 2:27:09.920 on Instagram and on Twitter. It Happened Here pod check 2:27:09.959 --> 2:27:11.680 out the Cool Zone from More of a podcast, and 2:27:11.840 --> 2:27:29.160 thank you for listening. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, 2:27:29.200 --> 2:27:32.000 a podcast about how much I Christopher Wong hate the 2:27:32.040 --> 2:27:36.080 police and specifically the Chicago Police Department. UM and we 2:27:36.160 --> 2:27:38.440 are bringing you part two of my interview with Chicago 2:27:38.520 --> 2:27:42.920 journalist Raven about more crimes of the Chicago Police Department, 2:27:43.000 --> 2:27:46.600 the international in fact, and how the police weaponize race 2:27:46.640 --> 2:27:48.920 and class lines in order to preserve their power enjoy 2:27:49.879 --> 2:27:52.360 You know, I spent a lot of time just like 2:27:53.879 --> 2:27:57.520 in like cops social media spaces, right, and of course 2:27:57.560 --> 2:28:01.600 it's like rotting my brain, and you know, it's it's 2:28:01.640 --> 2:28:05.680 honestly just really tough to deal with sometimes. But you 2:28:05.760 --> 2:28:08.680 know one thing that we see like over and over 2:28:08.720 --> 2:28:10.840 again if you look at the memes that they share 2:28:11.040 --> 2:28:13.800 and the the posts that they write on spacebook and 2:28:13.840 --> 2:28:18.920 all of these things, is it's they the people as 2:28:20.720 --> 2:28:26.320 their enemy, right, like they're they're trained the military. The 2:28:26.400 --> 2:28:30.440 militarization of the police isn't just about the equipment that 2:28:30.520 --> 2:28:32.720 they have and the money that they have. It's also 2:28:32.760 --> 2:28:37.400 about their psychology and how they they view themselves as 2:28:37.520 --> 2:28:43.440 like warriors fighting the bad guys. But because of the 2:28:43.560 --> 2:28:48.160 nature of policing, the bad guys are literally anyone who 2:28:48.400 --> 2:28:51.360 isn't complying with what they say. And usually this is 2:28:51.400 --> 2:28:56.959 like black people, you know, marginalized people, poor people, um. 2:28:57.640 --> 2:29:00.520 And then there's sort of this like you see a 2:29:00.560 --> 2:29:02.959 lot of these like memes where they they talk about 2:29:03.000 --> 2:29:08.560 themselves as like sheep dogs protecting the sheep from the wolves. 2:29:09.680 --> 2:29:13.320 And yeah, and like the sheep are supposed to be 2:29:13.520 --> 2:29:18.680 like the innocence, which typically if you if you really 2:29:18.720 --> 2:29:20.800 go deep into it, it's like in their minds, that's 2:29:20.840 --> 2:29:24.040 like women and children who are like mostly white, right, 2:29:24.640 --> 2:29:28.640 Like they think they're protecting like white innocence from like 2:29:29.720 --> 2:29:32.720 bad guys. And and there are layers to it, right 2:29:32.920 --> 2:29:36.400 because like obviously it doesn't always work out that way. 2:29:36.560 --> 2:29:39.520 And you know, there are like poor white people in 2:29:39.640 --> 2:29:42.720 rural areas who deal with police repression. You know, there 2:29:42.800 --> 2:29:47.280 are like wealthy black people who get pulled over by 2:29:47.320 --> 2:29:49.680 the cops just because they're driving well black. Like, there 2:29:49.720 --> 2:29:55.280 are certainly like layers upon layers here, depending on like 2:29:55.480 --> 2:29:59.000 class and and just everything. But at the end of 2:29:59.040 --> 2:30:03.680 the day, like they're training themselves up to be a 2:30:03.760 --> 2:30:11.600 military fighting the people in invading their spaces, taking over. 2:30:13.400 --> 2:30:18.320 And the psychology of it is just really really dark too, 2:30:18.440 --> 2:30:24.280 because you have these people who because because we're sending 2:30:24.360 --> 2:30:29.200 them into underresourced communities sort of after the fact, after 2:30:29.320 --> 2:30:32.960 traumas occurred, after there have been there's been violence, there's 2:30:33.000 --> 2:30:39.600 been shootings, everyone's poor, you know, whatever, we're sending them 2:30:39.640 --> 2:30:43.680 into these places where there's just like the most horrible 2:30:43.760 --> 2:30:48.360 things about poverty and about violence are happening and that's 2:30:48.360 --> 2:30:52.000 all they're exposed to. So then they end up with 2:30:52.120 --> 2:30:55.800 PTSD or all of these problems, you know, like the 2:30:55.840 --> 2:30:59.280 alcoholism rate, domestic violence, right, all of these things within 2:30:59.360 --> 2:31:03.640 the Troublablie force are extremely high. And all of this 2:31:03.760 --> 2:31:08.080 comes back to because we're treating everything as punishment. We're 2:31:08.120 --> 2:31:10.320 coming in after the fact. We're not actually treating these 2:31:10.360 --> 2:31:15.480 problems at the source. We're just sending people in to 2:31:15.800 --> 2:31:19.520 to manage the chaos after the fact, and then they 2:31:19.640 --> 2:31:24.560 end up traumatized. They end up enacting more crime and 2:31:24.640 --> 2:31:27.080 more violence for these communities, and it just becomes the 2:31:27.200 --> 2:31:32.080 cycle but no one can get out of. And then 2:31:32.120 --> 2:31:34.960 it and it comes back to just like defunding the 2:31:35.040 --> 2:31:39.320 police and and state priorities, like where are we putting 2:31:39.320 --> 2:31:41.320 our resources, because if we were putting them in the 2:31:41.440 --> 2:31:44.360 right place, so many of these things wouldn't be happening 2:31:44.360 --> 2:31:47.000 in the first place. Yeah, and I think one everything, 2:31:47.040 --> 2:31:49.400 I think it's it's important that we talked about this 2:31:49.520 --> 2:31:52.800 on our you know, the episodes about the cartels. We 2:31:52.879 --> 2:31:55.400 talked about this on our episodes about the other episodes 2:31:55.440 --> 2:31:57.800 about chocol Police, which is that the the other thing 2:31:57.879 --> 2:32:01.240 that happens is that the Chicago police just they you know, 2:32:01.360 --> 2:32:03.600 they they see the drug trade and they go, Okay, 2:32:03.640 --> 2:32:06.280 we're just gonna get in on it, and you know, 2:32:06.440 --> 2:32:08.959 and the the sort of the combination of these people, 2:32:09.240 --> 2:32:13.800 these just incredibly violent, armed people with total impunity and 2:32:14.200 --> 2:32:16.320 an enormous amount of money is that you know, they 2:32:17.320 --> 2:32:21.120 they they they they become themselves just you know, they 2:32:21.959 --> 2:32:23.920 they become exactly the same thing that they that they 2:32:23.959 --> 2:32:27.320 were you know, nominally supposed to be fighting. And that 2:32:27.600 --> 2:32:30.000 has all of these these downstream effects. If you talked 2:32:30.040 --> 2:32:34.800 about the way that the way that this militarizes basically everything, right, 2:32:34.840 --> 2:32:36.880 this this militarizes the police just has that, you know, 2:32:37.120 --> 2:32:39.160 the violence of it has the effect of militarizing like 2:32:39.760 --> 2:32:43.240 militarizing everyone else, militarizes the non ste actors, and it 2:32:43.360 --> 2:32:45.400 just sort of it just keep rashing up the level 2:32:45.440 --> 2:32:50.400 of violence. And as long as you keep throwing the 2:32:50.480 --> 2:32:51.880 state at it, and as long as the state just 2:32:52.120 --> 2:32:56.560 keeps essentially like going okay, I just okay, we have 2:32:56.600 --> 2:32:57.840 a drug trade and I'll just got a cut of it, 2:32:58.320 --> 2:33:00.800 and as long as that keeps happening, like all of 2:33:00.920 --> 2:33:04.760 the stuff that the cops are you know, nominally there 2:33:04.840 --> 2:33:07.039 to to deal with, it's just going to keep escalating 2:33:07.080 --> 2:33:11.200 because the state that like because just because state violence 2:33:11.360 --> 2:33:20.320 is intensifying and making it worse, right, right, and it's 2:33:20.400 --> 2:33:25.440 just so like they're still fucking racist, Like I just can't, 2:33:25.480 --> 2:33:27.440 I mean, like I don't. We have to we have 2:33:27.560 --> 2:33:29.840 to keep talking about that because it's just like so 2:33:30.120 --> 2:33:34.040 much of just like where like where they get their 2:33:34.080 --> 2:33:36.640 information and how they exchange. Like if you look at 2:33:36.680 --> 2:33:40.400 these cops social networks and where they're getting their information, 2:33:40.600 --> 2:33:42.520 and the kinds of things they're saying to each other 2:33:42.879 --> 2:33:48.760 about black people in Chicago are all so ridiculously wrong 2:33:50.120 --> 2:33:54.200 because they're just parroting these like cop blogs that they 2:33:54.280 --> 2:33:59.199 read full of all kinds of just that shit fucking 2:33:59.240 --> 2:34:01.920 conspiracy there is about like our our black d a, 2:34:02.200 --> 2:34:06.680 our prosecutor excuse me, Kim Fox being like a puppet 2:34:06.800 --> 2:34:12.520 of George Soros. They literally believe this, and and it's 2:34:12.560 --> 2:34:16.080 echoed by people like Tucker Carlson, you know, in national media, 2:34:16.160 --> 2:34:20.000 like anytime Chicago comes up, you will hear these kinds 2:34:20.000 --> 2:34:24.120 of just completely off the wall conspiracy theories about like 2:34:25.040 --> 2:34:33.320 communist BLM and Tifa, Soros funded Kim Fox like ruining Chicago. 2:34:33.760 --> 2:34:36.240 And and I'm not like defending Kim Fox. Don't getting wrong. 2:34:36.240 --> 2:34:39.200 She's still a prosecutor. She's still like putting people in jail. 2:34:39.879 --> 2:34:44.120 But she you know, she was elected because she was 2:34:44.240 --> 2:34:46.440 to do she was supposed to be this big reformist 2:34:47.720 --> 2:34:51.720 and and all of that, and so she's become a target. 2:34:51.760 --> 2:34:53.480 And then she's also become a target for them because 2:34:53.480 --> 2:34:58.600 she's a black woman, so it's easy for them to 2:34:59.400 --> 2:35:03.280 to make her to a lightning rod of hate basically. Yeah, 2:35:03.640 --> 2:35:09.880 and you know, like they just the dehumanization of of 2:35:10.040 --> 2:35:14.160 black Chicagoans that you see in these in these Facebook 2:35:14.200 --> 2:35:16.160 posts that these people are writing and the things that 2:35:16.200 --> 2:35:23.600 they're tweeting, like it is violently disturbingly racist. And all 2:35:23.720 --> 2:35:27.160 of that comes back to just how they view themselves 2:35:27.280 --> 2:35:30.840 as like an occupying army in these communities, Like they 2:35:30.920 --> 2:35:39.920 don't view themselves as like cooperative partners in helping these communities. 2:35:39.959 --> 2:35:43.440 Like it's no words there to occupy, We're there to 2:35:43.520 --> 2:35:48.640 extract resources. We're there to like, you know, benefit off 2:35:48.720 --> 2:35:52.840 of this gain warfare if we can you know and 2:35:53.080 --> 2:35:56.040 and like you mentioned, like if you look at like 2:35:56.440 --> 2:35:59.959 the corruption and and the things that that have gone 2:36:00.040 --> 2:36:02.480 on with that, I mean, like I mean that goes 2:36:02.520 --> 2:36:04.360 back to city council, right. I mean we have we 2:36:04.440 --> 2:36:07.440 have alder men. We have we have older people who 2:36:07.520 --> 2:36:13.120 are essentially in bed with the cops, looking for looking 2:36:13.160 --> 2:36:18.119 out for them and you know, like their dedicated cop alderman. 2:36:18.160 --> 2:36:21.000 I mean, like all of our Chicago aldermen are older 2:36:21.080 --> 2:36:26.080 people excuse me, are Democrats by name. But it's like no, 2:36:26.280 --> 2:36:30.160 we have five or six older people who are Republicans. 2:36:30.959 --> 2:36:34.480 Like they called themselves democrats because they wouldn't be able 2:36:34.480 --> 2:36:36.400 to be elected in Chicago if they didn't. But they 2:36:36.480 --> 2:36:40.720 are absolutely like cop loving Republicans. You know, they just 2:36:40.760 --> 2:36:43.640 called themselves Democrats because they like support gay marriage or whatever. 2:36:44.920 --> 2:36:48.040 Well it's because it's Chicago and you can't run it 2:36:48.879 --> 2:36:52.439 like the like the the the only time a Democrat 2:36:52.560 --> 2:36:55.600 has ever lost one of these elections was the time 2:36:55.959 --> 2:36:59.720 a I want blanking on the name of the cult 2:37:00.480 --> 2:37:05.840 I the time of Larushite accidentally won the primary and 2:37:06.280 --> 2:37:09.240 lots of the like that. That's basically it, Like yeah, 2:37:09.280 --> 2:37:11.320 I mean, it's it's it's you know this this is 2:37:11.360 --> 2:37:14.400 a democratic city, but you know, the democratic city just 2:37:14.560 --> 2:37:20.320 means incredibly right wing and police, which right, right. And 2:37:20.840 --> 2:37:24.279 when you look at the history of policing in Chicago, 2:37:26.040 --> 2:37:29.160 you have to go back decades and decades and kind 2:37:29.160 --> 2:37:32.560 of look also to it like where a lot of 2:37:32.640 --> 2:37:39.320 these cops came from. In the aftermath of like the 2:37:39.480 --> 2:37:43.000 dissolution of like the official like mafia and like al 2:37:43.040 --> 2:37:47.160 Capone and all that stuff, you had a lot of 2:37:47.320 --> 2:37:53.879 working class immigrants from like European communities, like the Polish community, 2:37:54.360 --> 2:37:57.960 the Irish community, the Italian community, and all of these 2:37:58.000 --> 2:38:01.800 communities have their own like police associations here, like the 2:38:01.879 --> 2:38:06.959 Italian American Police Association, the Polish American Police Association, all 2:38:07.040 --> 2:38:09.920 of these things, and and so like it becomes this 2:38:11.520 --> 2:38:14.160 being a cop to go back to sort of like 2:38:14.240 --> 2:38:17.400 the international ties here, being a cop becomes this like 2:38:17.520 --> 2:38:20.280 identity for them and their family is like a lot 2:38:20.280 --> 2:38:23.720 of people are cops because their dad was a cop, 2:38:23.920 --> 2:38:26.320 their grandpa was a cop, their cousins are cops, their 2:38:26.360 --> 2:38:32.040 brothers are cops. There's like a family honor sort of 2:38:32.280 --> 2:38:35.360 in like being a cop, and and a lot of 2:38:35.440 --> 2:38:39.039 them show, you know, and that that that goes back 2:38:39.080 --> 2:38:40.960 to why they show so much solidarity too with like 2:38:41.040 --> 2:38:46.360 cops from other countries is it's like the profession in 2:38:46.480 --> 2:38:53.640 and of itself is lionized. And then on top of that, 2:38:53.840 --> 2:38:59.720 you have right now in Chicago, like because of gentrification, 2:39:00.040 --> 2:39:02.800 because of just like immigration patterns and the way communities 2:39:02.840 --> 2:39:09.720 have changed. We have these like traditionally Polish Italian communities 2:39:09.840 --> 2:39:15.720 that feel like they're being encroached upon by mostly like 2:39:16.400 --> 2:39:22.600 Latin X communities. So we had for example, like you know, 2:39:22.680 --> 2:39:27.200 this shooting, um the murder of Anthony Alvarez up on 2:39:27.480 --> 2:39:29.400 up on the northwest side, the far northwest side of 2:39:29.480 --> 2:39:33.960 Chicago last year, and in the aftermath of that, we 2:39:34.080 --> 2:39:39.240 saw a lot of like pension between the traditional like 2:39:39.480 --> 2:39:43.520 Polish Polish American community up there and then the new 2:39:43.600 --> 2:39:48.880 wave of like Latin X immigrants UM. And the problem 2:39:49.000 --> 2:39:51.400 is a lot of the people in the Polish community 2:39:51.440 --> 2:39:55.400 up there have family and relatives who are cops. So 2:39:56.240 --> 2:40:00.280 we had like cops trashing the memorial you know, to 2:40:00.400 --> 2:40:04.160 the s Anthony Alvarez. We had like Polish biker gangs 2:40:04.360 --> 2:40:07.920 like riding by the rallies trying to like intimidate people 2:40:08.920 --> 2:40:10.960 and it all comes back to like white supremacy and 2:40:11.040 --> 2:40:14.680 and just straight up racism, right. Like there's another example 2:40:14.760 --> 2:40:20.280 of that with like the the Columbus statue that was 2:40:20.320 --> 2:40:26.320 sent here by Bussolini that eventually yeah, one of the 2:40:26.600 --> 2:40:28.840 like one of the I guess you'd call it the 2:40:28.879 --> 2:40:33.120 second wave of the upraising in Chicago was a bunch 2:40:33.200 --> 2:40:37.640 of people, like the enormous numbers of people throwing things 2:40:37.680 --> 2:40:40.400 at cops who were attempting to defend the statue. And 2:40:40.720 --> 2:40:43.480 this was like a like the Italian like American like 2:40:43.520 --> 2:40:45.880 the right wing of it got like extremely mad about this, 2:40:47.040 --> 2:40:51.119 and there was all this sort of you know, there's 2:40:51.120 --> 2:40:57.320 all the sort of tension between between these these different Yeah, 2:40:57.600 --> 2:41:01.400 and some of that comes back to like also um, 2:41:02.520 --> 2:41:06.080 the construction of of the Inner States. Right, So like 2:41:06.200 --> 2:41:09.000 in the I don't know when they started building the 2:41:09.080 --> 2:41:11.640 highways down by u C. Is like in the fifties 2:41:11.760 --> 2:41:14.920 or the sixties, right, you had this like traditional Italian 2:41:14.959 --> 2:41:19.560 American community down there by University of Illinois Chicago and 2:41:19.680 --> 2:41:24.960 like on Taylor Street, and then people built the highway 2:41:25.959 --> 2:41:28.160 and it like funked up a bunch of ships. You know, 2:41:28.640 --> 2:41:31.400 some people had to sell their homes, you know, some 2:41:31.560 --> 2:41:34.480 their traditional neighborhood was like destroyed all of these things, 2:41:35.000 --> 2:41:40.160 and then this university is built and that coincides with that, 2:41:41.280 --> 2:41:43.200 and so you end up getting a lot of like 2:41:43.920 --> 2:41:50.640 old school racist Italian getting piste at the students and 2:41:50.720 --> 2:41:53.959 at the school and everything in the aftermath. And it's 2:41:54.000 --> 2:41:56.680 a really really multicultural school. I don't know if you're 2:41:56.680 --> 2:42:01.000 familiar with you I see, but it's like, yeah, so 2:42:01.560 --> 2:42:05.800 do I see, has like one of the largest immigrant 2:42:06.360 --> 2:42:10.840 student population student bodies like in the country. Um, it's 2:42:10.879 --> 2:42:13.720 just a very very diverse school. I'm pretty sure white 2:42:13.760 --> 2:42:16.480 people are actually a minority if you look at like 2:42:16.560 --> 2:42:20.840 the demographics of just like how people identify in student surveys. 2:42:21.680 --> 2:42:24.840 U i S is the University of Illinois and Chicago. Yeah, 2:42:24.879 --> 2:42:28.160 it's a one of the big universities in the city. Yeah, 2:42:28.280 --> 2:42:32.320 just for the non Chicago wins. Yeah not yeah, different, 2:42:32.640 --> 2:42:36.840 there's a different one, University of Chicago that's like I 2:42:36.920 --> 2:42:43.360 went to. They've got their whole thing going on because 2:42:43.720 --> 2:42:46.760 their campus police force is one of the largest private 2:42:46.800 --> 2:42:48.800 police forces in the world. Yeah, and you know, I 2:42:48.840 --> 2:42:50.480 guess we can talking about that a little bit because 2:42:50.520 --> 2:42:53.400 that's this sort of like it's kind of horrible bind 2:42:53.640 --> 2:42:56.400 where it's like, yeah, so it's that that police force 2:42:56.480 --> 2:42:57.959 is one of the largest police forces in the world. 2:42:58.080 --> 2:43:00.720 It has shot students, it has shot people who are 2:43:00.800 --> 2:43:04.760 not students. It does a bunch of horrible things. But 2:43:04.879 --> 2:43:07.440 then you know, some you're there's there's this kind of trap, 2:43:07.680 --> 2:43:09.520 right because like one of one of the things that 2:43:09.560 --> 2:43:11.720 happens is like, well, okay, so you get rid of 2:43:11.760 --> 2:43:13.680 the u cp D, right, and then then you know, okay, 2:43:13.720 --> 2:43:15.600 so they're gonna bring the Chicago Police Apartment in and 2:43:15.640 --> 2:43:19.520 it's like the Chico Police Department are like one of 2:43:19.560 --> 2:43:22.800 the few institutions in the world that's worse than like 2:43:22.920 --> 2:43:26.240 the regular UCPD, and it's you know, and and that 2:43:26.360 --> 2:43:27.440 was that was one of the things that that was 2:43:27.480 --> 2:43:32.160 really inspiring. Um was just yeah, the way that the 2:43:32.240 --> 2:43:37.040 abolished the Chicago Police Department like movement was sort of 2:43:37.160 --> 2:43:40.520 like unfolded in this broader just this broader potential just 2:43:40.560 --> 2:43:43.720 abolished chiccoo, the Chicago police in general. But it's this 2:43:43.840 --> 2:43:45.560 weird thing where it's like you have these you have 2:43:45.600 --> 2:43:48.959 these occupation zones and it's like that that that part 2:43:49.040 --> 2:43:50.720 of the South Side and then the other the other 2:43:50.760 --> 2:43:53.720 thing I think that people don't understand about Chicago Police 2:43:53.720 --> 2:43:57.720 Department is that they have an absolutely enormous range that 2:43:57.800 --> 2:44:00.520 they patrol. Right that that doesn't include it's way it 2:44:00.520 --> 2:44:02.680 goes way off campus like they have. They have an 2:44:02.680 --> 2:44:06.040 absolutely enormous range of things they conclude and they do 2:44:06.200 --> 2:44:09.600 things like, uh, you know, they'll they'll just like like 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:12.800 like locked down the entire campus and they'll just do 2:44:12.959 --> 2:44:15.320 this just happen because there they'll be like chasing someone 2:44:15.440 --> 2:44:17.520 who like like one of one of the one of 2:44:17.560 --> 2:44:20.440 the times while I was there, someone like they like 2:44:20.680 --> 2:44:24.000 stolen something from like a video game store, and the 2:44:24.080 --> 2:44:27.000 whole campus got locked down, like the cops are screaming 2:44:27.000 --> 2:44:30.360 and everyone to stay in the buildings, like and they 2:44:30.480 --> 2:44:32.879 just like, you know, they had this like enormous numbers 2:44:32.920 --> 2:44:35.800 of cops just sort of like swarmed through the entire 2:44:36.640 --> 2:44:39.880 the entire campus for like an hour. And this is 2:44:40.000 --> 2:44:42.360 just like happens. I mean, there's cops everywhere. They just 2:44:42.440 --> 2:44:46.480 they do stuff like that, and there's this whole you know, 2:44:46.520 --> 2:44:48.080 and and but this is one of the other things 2:44:48.120 --> 2:44:51.960 where you get these tensions because so you Chicago, the 2:44:52.040 --> 2:44:56.320 University of Chicago also has like it's not as large, 2:44:56.360 --> 2:44:58.840 but also has like a like it also has like 2:44:58.879 --> 2:45:04.320 a pretty large international student immigrant like population. And there 2:45:04.440 --> 2:45:07.320 was this uh there was there was there was a 2:45:07.400 --> 2:45:09.440 Chinese national student who got shot, who got shot a 2:45:09.600 --> 2:45:13.680 robbery last year, and that was a huge I think 2:45:13.720 --> 2:45:18.960 that was last year. Yeah that was yeah, it wasn't yeah, yeah, 2:45:19.000 --> 2:45:20.600 And that turned into a huge thing where you had 2:45:20.640 --> 2:45:22.959 these sudden you know, because we had the anti police protests, 2:45:23.360 --> 2:45:25.440 but then suddenly there was this huge wing of like 2:45:26.160 --> 2:45:28.360 basically the right wing faculty, a bunch of just like 2:45:28.440 --> 2:45:35.560 absolutely reactionary, like extremely rich CCP scions and like this 2:45:35.760 --> 2:45:39.640 this sort of like Ducleus of of the like like 2:45:39.840 --> 2:45:41.720 people like people in the right wing law faculty, like 2:45:41.800 --> 2:45:44.640 the ECON people, who suddenly had this like giant thing 2:45:44.720 --> 2:45:46.400 that was like it was, it was. It was a 2:45:46.440 --> 2:45:49.840 sort of microcosm of of of the broader sort of 2:45:49.959 --> 2:45:53.960 like turn against the anti police movements by using crime. 2:45:54.000 --> 2:45:55.000 And they had this whole thing that we need to 2:45:55.080 --> 2:45:57.440 keep the campus safe and they're like, oh, we need 2:45:57.480 --> 2:45:59.360 to give you the ucp D the ability to lead 2:45:59.400 --> 2:46:00.960 to to go off of campus, which you know they 2:46:01.000 --> 2:46:02.560 already have there, Like we need to get the more money, 2:46:02.600 --> 2:46:05.080 we need to have more cops everywhere, and it was 2:46:05.160 --> 2:46:08.400 just and it's it's just this sort of like you 2:46:08.480 --> 2:46:10.800 get this horrible, horrible sort of pendulum effect where like 2:46:11.320 --> 2:46:14.840 you get this violence and then you know, people like 2:46:15.560 --> 2:46:19.080 the like the the rights response to that violence is 2:46:19.120 --> 2:46:21.199 just to create is you know, just descending more cops 2:46:21.320 --> 2:46:23.640 to create more violence, and it just keeps escalating and 2:46:23.720 --> 2:46:26.000 keep escalating, and it's it's and then you know, and 2:46:26.120 --> 2:46:28.120 then there's there's a sort of dynamic of this right 2:46:28.200 --> 2:46:32.400 where rich students at the University of Chicago. And this 2:46:32.520 --> 2:46:34.920 is so some extent this is it's mostly a class 2:46:35.000 --> 2:46:38.360 embraced thing, but it's not entirely. But like people who 2:46:38.440 --> 2:46:42.560 go there just like have this like incredible fear of 2:46:42.680 --> 2:46:45.360 literally everyone around them. It's like they turned to many cops. 2:46:46.320 --> 2:46:49.320 Like there are people who are screaming about how like 2:46:49.560 --> 2:46:52.120 just the red line is not safe at night. And 2:46:52.160 --> 2:46:55.560 I was like I have literally like I have walked 2:46:55.680 --> 2:46:58.360 like thirty blocks back home at two in the morning 2:46:58.440 --> 2:47:01.640 and been completely fine. Like you guys are just cowards, 2:47:02.000 --> 2:47:04.040 but and you know your your cowards and extreme basis, 2:47:04.120 --> 2:47:05.760 but like yeah, like all all of these sort of 2:47:05.800 --> 2:47:08.120 factors blend together and you get these you get these 2:47:08.160 --> 2:47:11.440 coalitions of of these these right wing pro police people 2:47:11.480 --> 2:47:14.080 who want to just not not just like you know, 2:47:14.280 --> 2:47:16.240 not not just support the police, but want to continue 2:47:16.280 --> 2:47:18.120 to expand it so they can feel safe. And it's 2:47:18.160 --> 2:47:21.120 like you're not, you're not even in danger, but they 2:47:21.160 --> 2:47:22.760 have they have they have the same sort of like 2:47:23.720 --> 2:47:26.080 this whole town is trying to kill us, like racist 2:47:26.120 --> 2:47:28.200 cop rand mentality, and yeah, sorry, this is this is 2:47:28.280 --> 2:47:31.039 this is this has been being upset about this because 2:47:32.920 --> 2:47:35.840 I feel you and it's like it's and but it 2:47:36.200 --> 2:47:39.080 relates back to kind of like campus policing in general 2:47:39.200 --> 2:47:42.520 and kind of why it exists, which is that a 2:47:42.600 --> 2:47:45.360 lot of colleges, I mean not all of them, It 2:47:45.400 --> 2:47:48.480 depends on where you are, but like some colleges, especially 2:47:48.680 --> 2:47:52.320 in like large urban areas, you know, are we're built 2:47:52.640 --> 2:47:58.600 in the middle of like largely black communities Chicago to 2:47:58.640 --> 2:48:02.400 a t. Yeah, and because the land wish cheaper to buy, 2:48:03.360 --> 2:48:06.360 you know, there are reasons why necessarily, like they're built 2:48:06.400 --> 2:48:10.240 in these spaces, and so the campus police departments function 2:48:10.680 --> 2:48:15.119 as just a way to like keep the students isolated 2:48:15.480 --> 2:48:19.800 from the community. Like it's making a community within a community. 2:48:19.840 --> 2:48:24.279 It's making this little enclave, and then of course people 2:48:24.400 --> 2:48:27.760 are are then going to view anyone outside of that 2:48:27.959 --> 2:48:32.320 enclave with like racist suspicion. Right, And if you have 2:48:33.440 --> 2:48:36.800 immigrant students who may or may not be wealthy, it's 2:48:36.840 --> 2:48:39.039 a punk on where they come from. But you UFC 2:48:39.200 --> 2:48:40.959 has like a lot of as far as I am aware, 2:48:41.040 --> 2:48:46.400 like wealthy international students. And they might be coming from 2:48:46.480 --> 2:48:50.120 countries where like there aren't any black people or there 2:48:50.120 --> 2:48:54.520 aren't very many. And just because they're they're coming from 2:48:54.760 --> 2:48:58.879 like this country doesn't necessarily mean that they like our 2:48:59.120 --> 2:49:02.160 left wing. So they they're coming into these communities, you know, 2:49:02.400 --> 2:49:05.959 with not a lot of experience, just sort of around 2:49:06.000 --> 2:49:08.480 people who look different from them, and so they're going 2:49:08.560 --> 2:49:11.480 to be of course looking to like these police figures 2:49:12.480 --> 2:49:16.840 than to quote protect them. But but to go back 2:49:16.879 --> 2:49:19.880 to it, it's like, Okay, well, if you are feeling 2:49:20.000 --> 2:49:25.640 unsafe on the train at night, for example, why why 2:49:25.800 --> 2:49:31.640 isn't the train safe? Like why are people using it 2:49:31.800 --> 2:49:35.920 as you know shelter? Why are people doing drugs on 2:49:35.959 --> 2:49:39.600 the train? Like why is there violence happening? And that 2:49:39.720 --> 2:49:43.000 just comes back to again, like we're not actually addressing 2:49:43.040 --> 2:49:48.360 the route problems by just adding more police. And I 2:49:48.440 --> 2:49:49.880 will say, like I think, I think again, Like the 2:49:50.480 --> 2:49:53.920 everything that's happening here is really just the University of Chicago, 2:49:54.400 --> 2:49:59.320 like is a place to which the world's leadish is transplanted. 2:50:00.120 --> 2:50:04.040 And you can see this like very clearly along because yeah, 2:50:04.120 --> 2:50:09.320 like there is the wealth gap between like between poor 2:50:09.320 --> 2:50:12.360 international students of rich international students is like it's it's 2:50:12.400 --> 2:50:15.400 the largest single wealth gap in like in this in 2:50:15.440 --> 2:50:20.040 the entire university. It's it's unbelievable. Um and you know, 2:50:20.160 --> 2:50:21.960 and you could you could just you can watch it 2:50:22.040 --> 2:50:23.840 playing down on class lines in a place down other 2:50:23.920 --> 2:50:27.120 lines right where you have like like you know even 2:50:27.360 --> 2:50:29.400 like yeah you have like you have both we have 2:50:29.520 --> 2:50:32.080 students from I don't know, you have students for China, 2:50:32.280 --> 2:50:33.880 students from Vietnam, and like one of them will be 2:50:33.959 --> 2:50:37.959 trans and you know it turns yeah, it's like oh hey, 2:50:38.080 --> 2:50:41.960 look like yeah, like when when when you have like 2:50:42.040 --> 2:50:43.720 when you have a Chinese trans student, right's like yeah, 2:50:43.720 --> 2:50:48.960 they're there. They the people who back home had have 2:50:49.160 --> 2:50:55.320 experienced depression in various ways, are consistently like consistently um 2:50:56.160 --> 2:51:00.120 or like consistently anti police and consistently like significantly. It's 2:51:00.160 --> 2:51:03.080 bad about this stuff. It's it's in my experience, it's 2:51:03.080 --> 2:51:05.640 it's very much. Is just you have this sort of 2:51:05.720 --> 2:51:09.280 transplanted like you have the short of transplanted eLife and 2:51:09.320 --> 2:51:10.840 by the countries to come to the Unversity of Chicago 2:51:10.920 --> 2:51:12.720 so they can you know, study economics and go back 2:51:12.720 --> 2:51:15.240 to their own countries and like continue to like rob 2:51:15.320 --> 2:51:19.480 their own populations. And those people are the ones who 2:51:19.560 --> 2:51:22.440 are doing this stuff. And it's I don't know, it's 2:51:22.760 --> 2:51:26.600 you see a lot of kind of like this like 2:51:26.720 --> 2:51:31.400 I think really misguided like anti racism. That's like, well, okay, 2:51:31.440 --> 2:51:33.800 we have to take the security concerns of of of 2:51:34.000 --> 2:51:37.000 these these of of Asian people seriously. It's like these 2:51:37.400 --> 2:51:39.960 are this is this is the Chinese ruling class, this 2:51:40.120 --> 2:51:42.000 is the this like you don't need to take these 2:51:42.040 --> 2:51:45.440 people's concerns seriously. They are finatally they're ferocious right wingers 2:51:45.480 --> 2:51:47.440 who have just read highatt for the first time. Like 2:51:48.080 --> 2:51:51.600 you guys, these these are these are not the same 2:51:51.720 --> 2:51:54.680 people as the people who are suffering under the like 2:51:55.280 --> 2:51:58.680 right right. And we saw that. We saw that too 2:51:58.840 --> 2:52:02.039 with like the big wave of stop Asian hate protests 2:52:02.120 --> 2:52:06.160 here last year where we had like this big rally 2:52:06.320 --> 2:52:11.360 down in Chinatown, UM with like a huge, huge number, 2:52:11.440 --> 2:52:13.680 like hundreds of people from the community came out and 2:52:14.240 --> 2:52:17.280 and you had a lot of younger people who very 2:52:17.360 --> 2:52:22.279 much had like you know, defund the police kind of sentiments. 2:52:23.320 --> 2:52:26.440 But then you had we had like police representatives speaking 2:52:26.520 --> 2:52:28.840 at the rally, yeah, about how they were going to 2:52:29.280 --> 2:52:34.440 to make like Chicago safer for Asian people. It's like 2:52:34.520 --> 2:52:38.760 this stuff like it makes me so angry, like CPT yeah, no, 2:52:38.920 --> 2:52:41.440 it was. It was regular CPD Like I I'm Chinese. 2:52:41.480 --> 2:52:45.440 They almost killed me on campus. Like these people like 2:52:45.560 --> 2:52:48.840 they're not these these these they they're like the police 2:52:48.879 --> 2:52:50.520 don't keep us safe. But like you know, there's been this, 2:52:50.640 --> 2:52:53.600 there's been this incredible weaponization of of the Asian American community. 2:52:53.959 --> 2:52:55.680 Like you see this, you see this in Chinatown. There's 2:52:55.720 --> 2:52:58.480 there's been this like that. There's like China Town is 2:52:58.680 --> 2:53:01.240 like this is different. Even in the last like like 2:53:01.520 --> 2:53:04.200 three or four years, has turned into this just like 2:53:04.800 --> 2:53:08.760 like incredibly right wing. I mean it's it's not everyone, 2:53:08.879 --> 2:53:11.040 but like you see like they're they're like I like 2:53:11.080 --> 2:53:13.400 there there's there's a there's there's there's a bench in 2:53:13.640 --> 2:53:15.920 in uh in Chicago in front of the library right 2:53:16.520 --> 2:53:19.280 that had they have these tables and the tables have 2:53:19.360 --> 2:53:22.000 an engraved plaque on them that says no loiter ring, 2:53:22.320 --> 2:53:23.720 and that says we will call the police on you 2:53:23.760 --> 2:53:25.800 if you loiter. That this is outside of the library. 2:53:27.120 --> 2:53:29.400 Like it's yeah, there's they have this sort of like 2:53:29.520 --> 2:53:33.120 in criticis incredibly right wing like anti anti like anti 2:53:33.680 --> 2:53:37.320 like homeless people campaign that's happening, and it's it's I 2:53:37.360 --> 2:53:39.879 don't know, it's it's one of just the most depressing 2:53:41.280 --> 2:53:43.520 things I've seen here because you have, you know, you 2:53:44.040 --> 2:53:45.600 have the Chamber of Commerce is to sort of like 2:53:46.200 --> 2:53:48.080 you know as the most powerful political force in a 2:53:48.120 --> 2:53:52.320 lot of these communities, and like those people's are right 2:53:52.360 --> 2:53:55.560 wingers and they just they they don't have the same 2:53:55.640 --> 2:53:59.000 interests as like the rest of the Asia, of of 2:53:59.040 --> 2:54:01.680 the Asian American community, and you know, and it gets 2:54:01.760 --> 2:54:04.400 you get this horrible, horrible thing, which is what was 2:54:04.440 --> 2:54:08.040 happening on these car campus, which is like essentially the 2:54:08.160 --> 2:54:11.400 right wing like pitting the right wing like just just 2:54:11.640 --> 2:54:15.720 pitting the like basically basically like pitting Asians against black people. 2:54:16.560 --> 2:54:23.840 And it's horrible and it and it just comes back 2:54:23.920 --> 2:54:27.280 to like who who is benefiting from this? Like who 2:54:28.000 --> 2:54:32.840 when we when we have immigrant communities or non immigrant communities, 2:54:34.600 --> 2:54:39.960 you know, like being upset with other communities, What are 2:54:40.000 --> 2:54:42.360 the greater forces here that are like benefiting from that 2:54:42.480 --> 2:54:45.840 sort of like infighting. And it's always like the fascist 2:54:46.160 --> 2:54:50.240 coops who who ultimately come out of the top there, 2:54:50.959 --> 2:54:55.200 because if they can keep the people fighting amongst themselves, 2:54:56.280 --> 2:55:01.119 or they can stoke prejudice and racism between the people, 2:55:01.560 --> 2:55:06.000 you know, they can then come in and scoop up resources. 2:55:06.160 --> 2:55:10.440 And when you look at like a school like University 2:55:10.480 --> 2:55:15.959 of Chicago, they just have a massive, massive amount of money, right, 2:55:16.120 --> 2:55:21.880 Like the resources there are just unbelievable. And so of 2:55:22.120 --> 2:55:26.120 course you're going to have people in the community who 2:55:26.200 --> 2:55:29.640 are resentful of that, who are upset about that because 2:55:29.800 --> 2:55:35.160 like they don't have affordable housing, they don't have good jobs, 2:55:35.680 --> 2:55:39.960 like they're trying to make a living and keep their 2:55:40.040 --> 2:55:46.720 kids safe. And here's this like university in the middle 2:55:46.760 --> 2:55:50.280 of their neighborhood with all of this money. And wow, 2:55:50.440 --> 2:55:53.800 I'm so amazed. I'm just so happy that like somebody's 2:55:54.160 --> 2:55:59.000 doing construction right now outside my apartment. Thank you for 2:55:59.160 --> 2:56:02.520 this timing. I'm so glad about him. Um. But but essentially, 2:56:02.680 --> 2:56:07.640 like you know, you they the students, the students end 2:56:07.720 --> 2:56:10.200 up being a scapegoat for all of their like all 2:56:10.280 --> 2:56:14.119 the communities like justified fears about what's going on, Right, 2:56:17.080 --> 2:56:19.560 they're justified in being upset that they don't have these resources. 2:56:19.600 --> 2:56:23.000 But it's not necessarily like the individual students. Yeah, and 2:56:23.120 --> 2:56:25.360 and there there have been a lot of really good 2:56:25.720 --> 2:56:27.600 Like right right before one of the things that was 2:56:27.640 --> 2:56:31.520 happening in high part right before I got there, was 2:56:31.600 --> 2:56:35.320 there is this huge campaign basically there wasn't a level 2:56:35.360 --> 2:56:38.520 one trauma center like on this outside, and so you know, 2:56:38.560 --> 2:56:41.039 if you get shot, right, they have to like take 2:56:41.120 --> 2:56:42.680 you in a helicopter to the north side to a 2:56:42.760 --> 2:56:45.200 hospital there, and you know in that time, like there's 2:56:45.200 --> 2:56:47.400 a good chance you're gonna die. And there had there 2:56:47.440 --> 2:56:48.760 had been one, but it got shut down because it 2:56:48.760 --> 2:56:51.160 wasn't making any money. And so you know, there was 2:56:51.200 --> 2:56:55.080 this huge, uh community student campaign to like to force 2:56:55.160 --> 2:56:56.920 the university to open one of these trauma centers. And 2:56:57.000 --> 2:56:59.320 so I think and I think it's important that like 2:57:00.240 --> 2:57:04.440 we don't have to fight each other like that that's 2:57:04.480 --> 2:57:06.280 not a thing that you know, Like yeah, like I 2:57:06.360 --> 2:57:11.720 think I think like that university, I I don't think 2:57:11.720 --> 2:57:14.000 it should continue to exist. I think at the very 2:57:14.120 --> 2:57:17.600 least it should be like taking out of the community control. 2:57:17.760 --> 2:57:20.680 But who but like yeah, like for the people who 2:57:20.720 --> 2:57:22.680 are there, and you know, I think like for for 2:57:22.760 --> 2:57:25.320 the Asian Americans listening to this, and for for for 2:57:25.360 --> 2:57:28.360 people who are students like you, you do not have 2:57:28.600 --> 2:57:30.800 to be the weapon of the cops. You don't. You 2:57:30.879 --> 2:57:33.720 can you can work together and and and when you 2:57:33.879 --> 2:57:36.200 do that, you can win and you can win. You 2:57:36.240 --> 2:57:41.240 can win like really incredibly tangible games for the community, 2:57:41.240 --> 2:57:44.720 and you can save people's lives, you know it also 2:57:45.520 --> 2:57:48.960 outside of campus, same deal with Chicago police, right, Like, 2:57:49.760 --> 2:57:54.320 we don't need to have the Eastern European communities fighting 2:57:54.480 --> 2:57:58.320 the Latino communities fighting the Black communities. Like we don't 2:57:58.320 --> 2:58:03.320 need to have these like all of these communities just 2:58:03.640 --> 2:58:06.640 like fighting each other instead of like the actual oppressive 2:58:06.720 --> 2:58:13.800 forces at the top. Um. But you know, right now 2:58:13.920 --> 2:58:17.560 we're at like this kind of I don't know, I 2:58:17.800 --> 2:58:22.880 guess tipping point. I think where either people start to 2:58:23.000 --> 2:58:28.400 show solidarity or we're fucked. Like there are massive not 2:58:28.600 --> 2:58:32.320 to get like super existential with you, but like there 2:58:32.360 --> 2:58:39.000 are massive, massive forces right now, right wing forces trying 2:58:39.120 --> 2:58:44.240 to benefit off of all of this factionalization, and as 2:58:44.320 --> 2:58:52.080 we see tanks rolling into Ukraine, like that's this is 2:58:52.120 --> 2:58:56.480 a global phenomenon. It's not just happening at home. It's 2:58:56.520 --> 2:59:01.880 happening everywhere, and like we don't have a lot of 2:59:02.040 --> 2:59:07.840 time left to stop this and to bring it back 2:59:07.920 --> 2:59:13.439 to this like far right trucker foe trucker convoy show 2:59:13.600 --> 2:59:17.280 that's about to happen and then roll into roll into 2:59:17.360 --> 2:59:22.520 our capital. Like I'm just struck by the timing of 2:59:22.600 --> 2:59:24.760 it all. And I'm certainly not going to be like 2:59:25.959 --> 2:59:28.840 a conspiracy theorist about it and be like, well putin 2:59:29.080 --> 2:59:34.959 Is has planned this all happened at the same time. Um, 2:59:36.000 --> 2:59:39.720 but I do think that whether or not it's like 2:59:40.320 --> 2:59:44.240 plans happen at the same time, it's absolutely going to 2:59:44.520 --> 2:59:50.480 benefit these people that you know this is happening right now, 2:59:51.320 --> 2:59:54.240 and yeah, it's it's It's the same thing with with 2:59:54.680 --> 2:59:59.560 just horrific anti trans bill said the anti transport I 2:59:59.680 --> 3:00:05.160 not buil but in anti transide government action, I guess 3:00:05.400 --> 3:00:08.760 is the correct term in in that's happening in Texas 3:00:08.879 --> 3:00:15.360 right now. Yeah, it's uh, you know, like people people 3:00:15.440 --> 3:00:19.200 draw comparisons to to the Third Roich In to Nazi 3:00:19.280 --> 3:00:23.600 Germany and them banning like you know, homosexual dance parties 3:00:23.800 --> 3:00:26.039 and things like that. You know, like they didn't start 3:00:26.080 --> 3:00:28.920 out saying we want to kill all the Jews. Like 3:00:29.120 --> 3:00:31.440 that's not like it doesn't you don't start that way, 3:00:32.320 --> 3:00:35.680 you make you would do the smaller attacks first, you 3:00:35.840 --> 3:00:38.760 build up to it, You take power inch by inch 3:00:39.000 --> 3:00:43.960 until like nobody can stop you. Yeah, but I think 3:00:44.000 --> 3:00:49.520 I think you know, there's there there's an important note here, though, 3:00:49.680 --> 3:00:52.520 which is that, like it's it's very easy to sort 3:00:52.560 --> 3:00:54.760 of especially in times like this, to sort of just 3:00:55.160 --> 3:00:58.960 like be be in a place where it just it 3:00:59.000 --> 3:01:00.560 looks like history is just want sing go over you, 3:01:00.959 --> 3:01:03.120 right that you know, we're we're we're bound by these 3:01:03.120 --> 3:01:07.880 sort of irresistible powers and forces, and that's not true. 3:01:09.640 --> 3:01:12.800 Like these these these these kinds of fascist movements can 3:01:12.879 --> 3:01:15.199 be defeated, these kinds of militarist movements can be defeated, 3:01:16.200 --> 3:01:19.160 but they they they they they can only be defeated 3:01:19.800 --> 3:01:24.120 when we actually take our place as the subjects of history, right, 3:01:24.280 --> 3:01:26.280 Like we we we are that we are the people who, 3:01:26.400 --> 3:01:30.440 through our actions, create history. And you know when we 3:01:30.680 --> 3:01:32.720 also are the people who create the world we see 3:01:32.760 --> 3:01:36.080 around us. But you know, as David Graby was incredibly 3:01:36.120 --> 3:01:37.640 fond of saying, rights like we we are the people 3:01:37.640 --> 3:01:40.280 who create the world around us, and that means that 3:01:40.440 --> 3:01:44.400 we can it can be otherwise. And you know, when 3:01:44.760 --> 3:01:49.640 when we essentially like when we when we reclaim our 3:01:49.920 --> 3:01:51.880 you know, our our status is subjects or status is 3:01:52.000 --> 3:01:56.000 human beings are status as the people of which history 3:01:56.080 --> 3:01:58.800 is composed of. And we move we can stop these 3:01:58.840 --> 3:02:02.080 things like they're they're there, do not have to be 3:02:02.640 --> 3:02:05.039 another like there don't have to be more Nazis, they 3:02:05.080 --> 3:02:06.680 don't have to be more genocience. You don't have to 3:02:06.720 --> 3:02:10.080 be more worse. We can stop them. We just have 3:02:10.240 --> 3:02:15.520 to fight, right. I don't disagree with that. I think 3:02:15.720 --> 3:02:18.760 I think it's completely true. I guess I'm just I 3:02:18.760 --> 3:02:21.760 don't know, maybe I'm like a dumer. I don't know. 3:02:23.600 --> 3:02:27.960 It's really hard right now to kind of see I 3:02:28.000 --> 3:02:34.000 guess sort of mass resistance forming in the US specifically 3:02:34.800 --> 3:02:39.120 just because of the way the pandemic has wrecked us, 3:02:40.640 --> 3:02:46.320 and I feel like people are I mean, people are 3:02:46.360 --> 3:02:50.320 just checked out, right, Like they're exhausted, they're broke. I 3:02:50.720 --> 3:02:54.240 you know, a million people have died because of because 3:02:54.320 --> 3:02:59.560 of the government's just complete lack of adequate handling of COVID, 3:02:59.640 --> 3:03:03.680 and so I completely agree that like this isn't inevitable, 3:03:03.760 --> 3:03:09.040 like we can stop this. At the same time, I 3:03:09.200 --> 3:03:12.800 just I don't know what it's going to take for 3:03:13.040 --> 3:03:19.040 Americans like as an entity to actually stand up and 3:03:19.200 --> 3:03:23.280 fight this. And I'm not blaming individual people because it's 3:03:23.320 --> 3:03:25.800 like all the reasons for people being exhausted and checked 3:03:25.840 --> 3:03:29.960 out are like also by design, right, because of course, 3:03:30.120 --> 3:03:34.440 like if we keep people exhausted and checked out, then 3:03:35.000 --> 3:03:38.400 the oligarchs at the top like can continue to like 3:03:38.600 --> 3:03:43.040 loot society. Yeah, I mean I think I'm sort of 3:03:43.160 --> 3:03:45.320 less sang when on that, just because, like you know, 3:03:45.360 --> 3:03:48.200 because I remember, this is the same thing that like 3:03:48.320 --> 3:03:52.959 everyone said right before the uprising, like everyone was checked out. 3:03:53.000 --> 3:03:56.279 Everyone was sort of like you know, like the pandemic 3:03:56.320 --> 3:03:58.920 had just started. Everyone there's this like general consensus that 3:03:59.000 --> 3:04:02.200 like mass action was in visible, and then you know, 3:04:02.560 --> 3:04:05.040 like two days later, they burned down they burned down 3:04:05.080 --> 3:04:08.520 a police station and like deluding the American Mile, and 3:04:08.879 --> 3:04:14.640 you know, it's like it's like it's these these these things, 3:04:14.720 --> 3:04:22.040 these things like you know, every like the the people 3:04:22.120 --> 3:04:25.560 who are in some sense the most in tune with 3:04:26.280 --> 3:04:31.400 like what is happening, it'll often tend to be the 3:04:31.440 --> 3:04:34.960 people who are most shocked by when when these kinds 3:04:35.000 --> 3:04:38.760 of things just emerge seemingly out of nowhere. And so 3:04:39.720 --> 3:04:45.480 I don't know, I think, I think, I think we 3:04:45.720 --> 3:04:50.039 can't know what exactly will set off the next wave, 3:04:50.160 --> 3:04:52.080 but I but I think it's a safe bet there 3:04:52.120 --> 3:04:56.360 will be another one because there always is. Right, We've 3:04:56.600 --> 3:04:59.080 never you know, we we have yet to hit a 3:04:59.160 --> 3:05:02.840 point so bad that people stop fighting like ever in history, 3:05:03.120 --> 3:05:06.960 so oh for sure. Yeah. And and that's the long 3:05:07.200 --> 3:05:10.520 arc of history too, is it's like people have always 3:05:11.320 --> 3:05:16.880 been fighting for their liberations in some way. And if 3:05:16.959 --> 3:05:20.480 you look at the longer story, you know, there might 3:05:20.600 --> 3:05:27.000 be very long periods of darkness and repression and collapse, 3:05:28.360 --> 3:05:36.279 and then people emerge from that and new societies emerge, 3:05:36.800 --> 3:05:39.240 new ways of thinking all of that. And I think 3:05:40.480 --> 3:05:45.200 where we're at now, like at this moment, there are 3:05:45.280 --> 3:05:51.560 certainly small ways that people can resist and ways that 3:05:51.720 --> 3:05:54.400 we like we have to focus on like our immediate 3:05:54.520 --> 3:05:58.120 communities too. You know, it's so easy to get to 3:05:58.240 --> 3:06:01.080 feel helpless when you like you look at things on 3:06:01.200 --> 3:06:04.119 such a grand scale. Because of course, like we can't 3:06:04.160 --> 3:06:06.400 all just like run into Ukraine right now and like 3:06:06.520 --> 3:06:11.040 stop putin like there's there's really not a lot we 3:06:11.160 --> 3:06:13.840 can do when it comes to like things like that. 3:06:15.040 --> 3:06:18.560 But we can like take care of our friends. We 3:06:18.640 --> 3:06:22.200 can like make sure that the people immediately around us 3:06:22.480 --> 3:06:26.200 like have what they need. We can like check in on, 3:06:26.360 --> 3:06:30.640 like you know, our on house neighbors. We can like 3:06:33.360 --> 3:06:35.600 take you know, some people here in Chicago are are 3:06:35.680 --> 3:06:39.600 prepping to like take in Ukrainian refugees, for example, right now. 3:06:40.480 --> 3:06:42.760 And and that's like the sort of action that like 3:06:43.080 --> 3:06:50.440 is definitely going to be needed. Um. And you know, 3:06:50.600 --> 3:06:53.960 like when you look at the story of like something 3:06:54.080 --> 3:06:59.120 as as horrible and just like awful as a holocaust, 3:06:59.280 --> 3:07:01.960 like of course, are all all these like small stories 3:07:02.040 --> 3:07:06.600 of like people who like sheltered, people who were who 3:07:06.640 --> 3:07:10.440 are being sought out, And you know, there were there 3:07:10.440 --> 3:07:13.200 were all these different kinds of resistance movements in Germany 3:07:13.280 --> 3:07:18.960 and in Poland. Um. And it's not just about like 3:07:19.600 --> 3:07:22.960 all the people that that Hitler killed. It is also 3:07:23.000 --> 3:07:26.040 about all the people that like we're that people managed 3:07:26.080 --> 3:07:31.880 to save, you know, And it is also like I 3:07:31.920 --> 3:07:34.560 don't know we we in America especially, it's like we 3:07:34.640 --> 3:07:37.160 gotta get away from the Hitler comparisons, which I know 3:07:37.240 --> 3:07:41.440 I just like just made, but like it's it's you know, 3:07:41.720 --> 3:07:45.119 like don't get me wrong, Like there's obviously like plenty 3:07:45.200 --> 3:07:47.879 of parallels and and it's important to be like students 3:07:47.959 --> 3:07:51.840 of history and like understand what's going on and everything, 3:07:52.000 --> 3:07:57.520 but like we don't. What we're seeing is like we're 3:07:57.560 --> 3:07:59.920 going to see a kind of fascism that is uni 3:08:00.200 --> 3:08:05.000 to our era, right, Like I don't know that Trump 3:08:05.120 --> 3:08:07.080 is going to come out and call for like outright 3:08:07.160 --> 3:08:10.520 genocide and like you know, build build death came or 3:08:10.600 --> 3:08:13.000 like Rhonda Santis is going to get elected and like 3:08:13.120 --> 3:08:17.320 build death camps. Like it's going to look different than 3:08:17.400 --> 3:08:19.760 it has in the past, even if like some of 3:08:19.840 --> 3:08:24.119 the phenomenon are similar. So what we're looking at instead 3:08:24.280 --> 3:08:26.480 is like, especially with climate change, we're looking at a 3:08:26.560 --> 3:08:32.560 lot of controls over borders. And obviously some of that 3:08:32.720 --> 3:08:34.760 is like what's happening in Europe right now too, but 3:08:35.520 --> 3:08:37.520 you know, people are going to be looking to control 3:08:38.160 --> 3:08:42.680 resources like water, oil, land as we know that they're 3:08:42.760 --> 3:08:47.440 like running out. And so this this sentiment against like 3:08:47.600 --> 3:08:52.440 immigrants especially, you know, that's something that is going to 3:08:52.600 --> 3:08:55.720 just keep getting worse. And so I think it makes 3:08:55.760 --> 3:09:01.280 it harder for people to I guess recognize that things 3:09:01.320 --> 3:09:06.119 are as bad as they were, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, 3:09:07.280 --> 3:09:13.960 And ultimately, like it's just yeah, mass resistance is the 3:09:14.040 --> 3:09:19.680 only way out, right, Like, the people have to resist 3:09:19.800 --> 3:09:23.680 and we can't keep waiting for like Joe Biden or 3:09:24.320 --> 3:09:29.680 or anyone to be our political savior. Yeah. I think 3:09:29.760 --> 3:09:31.720 I think that's a that's that's a pretty good note 3:09:31.720 --> 3:09:34.320 to end on. Yeah, thank you, thank you for joining us. 3:09:34.520 --> 3:09:36.920 Do you have stuff that you want to plug? Um, 3:09:37.360 --> 3:09:41.520 not at the moment. No, I mean I think, uh, 3:09:43.000 --> 3:09:47.360 I guess our Twitter account, But that's about it. Okay. Yeah, Well, 3:09:47.680 --> 3:09:49.760 this this has been this has been another episode if 3:09:49.800 --> 3:09:52.000 we could happen here. You can find us on Twitter 3:09:52.200 --> 3:09:56.080 and Instagram at happen here. Pot. 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