1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,720 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: you know this is a compiletion episode. So every episode 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you. But you 8 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. All right, we'll find some 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: clever way to introduce us. By then all huh, you 10 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: know what, I might just go with that. I will 11 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: find some clever way to introduce us. And that is 12 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: that is the introduction now because because I said it, Hello, 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: welcome to it could happen here today we are going 14 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: to be talking about um Internet privacy and some new 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: bills that will possibly undermine it. UM. Today I have 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: with me Stopher. Hello, Christopher, Hello, I am here. I am. 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if excited is the right word, but no, 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: people are really excited to come about the show. This 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: is a this is a mild dread of the Internet. 20 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: I try because we definitely, we definitely can. Things don't 21 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: need to be always horrible and grim, even when you're 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: talking about things that aren't great. But yeah, today today 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about some some interesting things. As per 24 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: the title of this episode will probably be related to 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: we are talking about the proposed earn It Act, and 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: we'll just I'll explain what it is in the different 27 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: kind of implications that could have on how like everyone 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: uses the internet, um, but also affects a few specific 29 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: types of people in particular. So but kind of part 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, We're gonna start off by talking 31 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: about something a little bit different and then to kind 32 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: of segue to the inn An Act. UM. So, last year, 33 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: Apple Company announced like a controversial plan to install photo 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: scanning software into every kind of every every device. UM. 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: Apple's kind of long been seen as a pro privacy company. UM. 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: In the past, they have like refused FBI demands to 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: help investigators by pass locked phones. So this this idea 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: on this plan to create a backdoor into the iPhone 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: storage system to scan for photos was kind of a 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: big deal coming for Apple because they were definitely, at 41 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: least in the past, known as a generally like out 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: of all of the companies, the ones that if you're 43 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: dealing with sensitive matters, Apple is generally generally the better one. 44 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: Now that that has become less of a case in 45 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: the past few years, but that was that that definitely 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: was the case. So when when this kind of idea 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: was announced, there was a decently sized global coalition also 48 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: formed to push back on this thing UM, and the 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: company did pause the plan. Now, this came at a 50 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: time that a lot of different kind of companies were 51 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: also pushing back against not safe for work materials UM's 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: cimically for like like like relating to the transactional money 53 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: and banks. This was you know, around the time that 54 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: only fans was flip flopping on whether they would actually 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: have not safe for work kind of materials as a 56 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,799 Speaker 1: part of this kind of growing trend of like worrying 57 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,359 Speaker 1: about UM. The term now is like child sexual abuse 58 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: materials more traditionally was it's called child pornography or you know, 59 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: so it's part of this kind of overall kind of 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: extra focus that tech companies have about being worried that 61 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: if they if someone who is doing that who is underage, 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: or if someone's being exploited who's underage, UM, you know, 63 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: they could unfinancially hurt the company. So they're trying to 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: a lot lots of companies have been trying to do 65 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: this thing to prevent that legal and financial issue for happening. Now, 66 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: of course, all this really actually ends up doing is 67 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: just negatively affecting sex workers. Um. But that's that's kind 68 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: of a topic for a different episode because we're talking 69 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: about the inn Act more specifically and not not specifically 70 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: talking about only fans. But this was Apple's plan to 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: kind of scan all these photos to make sure that 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: that they were not you know, naked photos of and 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: of children. Um. Now there's a whole buch of other 74 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: privacy issues around that, because I mean, obviously teens do 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: take news and send them to each other and there 76 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: is really no stopping that. Um. So the idea that 77 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: all these photos are getting scanned and then seen and 78 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: then like it would be the idea was that parents 79 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: would be like alerted if something was found on the 80 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: phone automatically, which means that for me, I have a 81 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: whole bunch of other issues with that, Like that is 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: a whole another kind of level, especially for queer kids, 83 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: like that is like that is a whole again, but 84 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: that that is mostly the whole whole other discussion that 85 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about right now because we 86 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: are I do want to focus is focus this more 87 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: on the more on the earn at act. Um. But 88 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: so this this plan was paused, UM. But now that 89 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: may not necessarily matter actually, um, because Congress kind of 90 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: wants to force Apple's hand, along with a lot with 91 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: essentially every other company that allows users to store or 92 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: share messages or kind of really any content. Um. And 93 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: Congress is some senators and there's a bill that will 94 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: try to essentially mandate photo scanning and specific photo scanning 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: technology approved by the government. So yeah, So while Apple's 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: plan would have put privacy and it's the security at 97 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: risk for all of us users, the Earned Act of 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: compromises the security and free speech for basically everyone who 99 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: uses the Internet. Um. The bill would create serious legal 100 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: risks for businesses that host content such as messages or 101 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: photos of stored in the cloud, online backups, and potentially 102 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: even any kind of cloud hosting sites such as Amazon 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: Web Services, which means basically most of the Internet um 104 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: and based so have the all these company all of 105 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: these services and companies would be in serious legal risk 106 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: unless they use this government approved scanning tools. A version 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: of this bill was first introduced two years ago, sponsored 108 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: by Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican from South Carolina, and Senator 109 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: Richard Blumenthal, a Democrat from Connecticut. And now, like a 110 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: lot of these other things, it is allegedly aimed at 111 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: tackling so called child sexual abuse material online. UM. Which 112 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: is which is a problem there is the kids definitely 113 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: do get exploited. UM, kids do get groomed, exploited, photos 114 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: of children do get shared online. Uh. That like that 115 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: that that actually is a real issue. UM. Now, a 116 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: lot of the ways that these tools get implemented don't 117 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: actually address that issue. And of course it doesn't actually 118 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: deal with the people that do this, like you know, 119 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 1: like the bad the bad people that do exploit kids. 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily deal with them either. That is that 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: is what they wrapped this idea as the original bills 122 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: that was introduced two years ago threatened encryption and privacy 123 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: features that would have actually, you know, put Americans privacy, 124 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: particularly particularly the privacy of children, um, at risk. It 125 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: also got in section to thirty in ways that caused 126 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: over fifty civil rights groups to pennel letter describing the 127 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: potential consequences um of such things like censorship um, you know, 128 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: cramming down on free speech and the basically destruction of encryption. 129 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 1: So when the legislation failed to advance two years ago, 130 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: digital Um, liberty advocates, you know, sex workers, civil rights 131 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: organizations all breathed a sigh of relief. But this past month, 132 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: as I record this um in twenty in February, a 133 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: group of lawmakers, again led by Senator Richard Bluementhal and 134 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: Senator Lindsay Graham reintroduced the earnet ACTUM, a slightly modified 135 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: version of it UM, and on the on the tenth 136 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: of February, the Senate to Judiciary Committee voted to advance 137 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: the dangerous earn It Act bill. So yeah, it is. 138 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: It is. It is chugging along a bit further than 139 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: what it did than what it did last time. The 140 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: earn An Act aims to tackle the horrific criminal activity 141 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: related to child sexual abuse material by making Section to 142 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: thirty protections contingent on the prevention and response to such 143 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: material online. So Section to thirty shields online services like 144 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: you know commonly used social media from liability from most 145 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: user generated content. Under earn it, a Section to thirty 146 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: would be amended to enable civil claims and state criminal 147 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: prosecution related to child abuse materials online against platforms. Now 148 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: already this can kind of happen federally a little bit, 149 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: um but it depends on how the company like responds 150 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: to it. So, but this would introduce a whole new 151 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: wave for civil claims and state claims to be filed 152 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: against companies like this. Um if if if if, if 153 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: material like this is to be found hosted on their site, 154 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: you know, including you know that that that would even 155 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: include if like someone who's underage operates and not safe 156 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: for work Twitter account that they probably should not be operating. 157 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: Um but this this, you know this, this could also 158 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: this could basically make the company in trouble. They can 159 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: fall under state claims or civil claims. So as as 160 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: a result, online services could be subject to endless litigation 161 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: under fifty different you know legal law systems you know 162 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: for all the states regarding you know, finding child sexual 163 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: abust material online. So the bill's proponents claim that this 164 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: isn't necessarily a problem for any service as long as 165 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: it is scanning the files then reporting child sexual beast 166 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: material to law enforcement. Internet companies are already required to 167 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: report suspected material if they come across it, and they 168 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: do report material on a massive scale that often comes 169 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: comes with a lot of mistakes. Facebook is often held 170 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: as a positive example by what lawmakers and law enforcement 171 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: for how much they do report such such material. But 172 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: while their new scanning techniques have produced many millions of reports, 173 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: most of them are inaccurate. Like most of them actually 174 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: aren't of miners. It's it's it's not it's not. Actually 175 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: none none of the s getting material is good because 176 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, many people up into their thirties 177 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 1: can get often flagged and often like even non humans 178 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: can get flagged, like pictures of fruit, like like it's 179 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: not like it's not like, yeah, none of these scanning 180 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: tools are actually very good. Yeah, and like this is 181 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: I think, I think a thing that like, if you've 182 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: never liked had to work with a machine learning algorithm before, 183 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: I think it's difficult to understand how unbelievably bad these 184 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: things are. Like it's just these oh, god, like the 185 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: the the incomprehensible horror of trying to get a machine 186 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: learning algorithm to do the thing that you wanted to 187 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: do and not do the other things that you're not 188 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: that you don't wanted to do to like, you know, 189 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: be able to tell a difference between like a particularly 190 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: smooth and round peach and like child's exhibuse material. You know, 191 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: you human being can do this, right. The machine cannot 192 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: and it is they it is horrifically inaccurate. You have 193 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: to do all kinds of like hacking stuff together in 194 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: order to get this stuff to work. And yeah, it's 195 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: it's it's a fiasco. A good example of this that 196 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: I've that I've heard before that I'm probably probably gonna 197 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: butcher this explanation, but you know that you can take, 198 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, a photo of a wolf, um, maybe even 199 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: three photos of a wolf, and say here this is 200 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: these these are photos of wolves. Um, here's it, here's 201 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: other here's here's these these other photos. Find which ones 202 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: are wolves, and it'll, you know, it'll it'll sort throw 203 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: the ones. So some of them have wolves, some of 204 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: them don't. Um, and it only finds one picture that 205 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: says this one, based on the three photos even given 206 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: me this photos is a wolf, and instead the photo 207 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: is not. The photo is of a tree. And you're like, 208 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: why did it tell me this is a wolf? And 209 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: the computer will answer, well, look at all, the all 210 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: of the backgrounds are the same because it's trying, it's 211 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: trying to match, like he doesn't have the same thing 212 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: that humans do. And when when all these computer algorithms 213 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: that are trying to learn to replicate and trying to 214 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: find these patterns, it is never perfect. So the big 215 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: thing that is people often overlook is that, yeah, specifically 216 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: with this, like with with Facebook scanning tool and the 217 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: millions of reports that that it does make. You know, 218 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: federal law enforcement will frequently use the massive number of 219 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: reports to suggest there is this giant recent up to 220 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 1: in child sexual abuse materials. But that's not because there 221 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: actually is. That's because the scanning that some companies are 222 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: doing is just so bad, Like it's just it's just 223 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: so accurate that it flags so many things. So like 224 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: in action, the new earn It Act would just pave 225 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: a massive new surveillance system run by private companies that 226 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: would roll back some of the most important privacy and 227 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: security features and technology used by people around the globe. Right. 228 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: The idea is to compel private companies to scan every 229 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: message that sent online and report violations to law enforcement, 230 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: and it may not stop their earn An Act could 231 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: ensure anything hosted online commular like backups, websites, cloud photos, 232 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: and more, is all scanned. Now, of course, you can say, 233 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean there is no actual true privacy online, right. 234 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: The n s A does see everything, which is basically true, 235 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: but stuff like local police departments in the FBI do 236 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: not have constant access to what the n s A has. 237 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: It does actually like legally it does actually take some 238 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: time for that to happen. The fact that all these 239 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: private companies would be doing it for them, um, and 240 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,959 Speaker 1: the fact that this would actually break encryption makes people 241 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: like the FBI, makes the local law enforcement have a 242 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: much easier time accessing what we do on the internet, 243 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: because yes, the n s A kind of does always 244 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: to see everything, but that that this actually this actually 245 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: is this actually is quite different in terms of the 246 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: accessibility of that information. And I think I think it's 247 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: also you know, to to to go back into one 248 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: of the sort of like encryption arguments to right, So, okay, 249 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: what once you put a backdoor into encryption? Right? Once, 250 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: once once you have you know, you have your system, 251 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: you have the encryption system, but you know now there's 252 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: now there's a way to access it, right because oh, well, 253 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: we need to access these you know, we need to 254 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: be able to decrypt this in order to see if 255 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: there's like child pornography materials on it. Right, Once that 256 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: backdoor exists, any anyone who finds it can use it 257 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: for anything they want. And it's it's it's it's not 258 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: even just that, like well we'll get into some other 259 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: things around encryption, but but yeah, you can continue. Yeah, 260 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: and you know, and I think I think this is 261 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: something that I think people don't like. The people who 262 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: are just to keep about this in terms of child 263 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 1: pornography don't think about which is that like I don't 264 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: know a lot like there these these kinds of backdoors, right, 265 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: like other people can find them, yes, and you know, Okay, 266 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: now now you've just put it back to it, all 267 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: of the encryption, like oh hey, here's you know, like here, 268 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: you're you you are. You are going to get people killed, 269 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: and you're gonna get people killed because you're going to 270 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: have people who are doing things under governments that you 271 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: know will will will Like you know, you're gonna have 272 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: people in mil Mart, You're gonna have people in You're 273 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: gonna have people in Egypt. You're gonna have people in 274 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: Syria who like these these regimes and like these you know, 275 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: private private companies right are are going are going to 276 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: sell the back doors to these regimes and they're going 277 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: to use it to hunt down, torture and kill people. 278 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: And so yeah, there is there's a lot of problems 279 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: with it, especially especially how it how it kind of 280 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: addresses encryption, because the bill does try to actually have 281 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: some encryption protections, but the way they go about it, 282 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: of course is not is not adequate, and it even 283 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: kind of fosters it's its own negation in some ways 284 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: if you read the entire bill. So but I'll get 285 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: more into encryption in a sec because there are other 286 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 1: like technical issues with the way this bill is designed 287 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: and how it would be enacted. There is this sort 288 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: of benefit to having a legal material that is that 289 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: is actually exploding miners being primarily hosted on big tech 290 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: platforms because these platforms are used so much and are 291 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: mostly non restricted, so it makes catching this stuff and 292 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: reporting it actually much easier, Like it is if they're 293 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: hosted on these mainstream things, it does make seeing it 294 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: and reporting less difficult. So not only will this bill 295 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: make tech companies be more likely just to ban all 296 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: not safe work material in general, right, because if companies 297 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: are forced to scan and they're gonna be filing swimming 298 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: reports that this will this will result in a lot 299 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: a lot more companies just saying no new photos at all, 300 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: like just completely gone. Not only will this bill just 301 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: make tech companies more likely to ban all not safe 302 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: work content in general, which would be horrible for sex 303 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: workers and just a bad precedent, but yeah, they would 304 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: be more likely just to do that because of how 305 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: much overscanning there would be, and just a whole bunch 306 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: of things, so we'd create it would create too many 307 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: fears of legal repercussions. Thus, you know, that would force 308 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: people who distribute child porn onto more sketchy sites and 309 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: sites that might just refuse to scan content in general 310 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: because they're temporary hosting. But the bill could also just 311 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: to scare these bad people off of mainstream platforms and 312 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: make them voluntarily migrate to more niche and hard to 313 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: finde the corners of the Internet, making illegal content harder 314 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: to catch and take down because there will always be 315 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: weird temporary sites to host this type of thing, like 316 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: they're always there, Like these bad people will find a 317 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: way it's always like that is it is gonna always 318 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: be a problem. Um. And so in a way, it's 319 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: it is better to have these things on mainstream platforms 320 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: because reporting them and taking them down can be much easier. Um. 321 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: It's it's like it's like when people really advocate platforms 322 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: like Telegram shut down all fascist channels. Right. The thing 323 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: is is that there's a lot of benefits to having 324 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: these chat rooms on Telegram because that makes them really 325 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: easy to monitor and really easy to infiltrate. UM. So 326 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot worse places for fascists to organize. UM. 327 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: If you're doing it on Telegram, it's actually really easy 328 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: to watch. So it's this weird given take in terms 329 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 1: of in terms of where where these things happen, because 330 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: they are going to happen somewhere. So I now want 331 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 1: to talk about how specifically this bill threatens threatens online 332 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: encryption services, all right, Um, The bill would strip critical 333 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: legal protection for websites, apps, and specifically Section to thirty. 334 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: If past, it would empower many different levels of government 335 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: to make sweeping new Internet regulations. Right in, individual states 336 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 1: will be able to pass laws um to hold private 337 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: companies like libel um as long as they somehow relate 338 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: their new rules to child abuse materials, like they wible 339 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: to have a whole bunch of new rules on Internet 340 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: regulations if they can sift it through this lens. The 341 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: goal is to get states to pass these laws that 342 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,639 Speaker 1: will punish that will punish companies when they deploy end 343 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: and encryption or offer other encryption services. This includes messaging 344 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: systems like What's Apps, Signal I Message, and as well 345 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: as web hosting like Amazon Web Services um EARN it 346 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: aims to spread the use of tools to scan all 347 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: online content against law enforcement databases like directly UM. In 348 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: a myths and Facts document distributed by the bill's proponents, 349 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: it even names a government approved software program that they 350 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: could mandate called a photo d NA, which is a 351 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: program that Microsoft made that reports directly to law enforcement databases. 352 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: So earn it doesn't specifically attack encryption per se UM, 353 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: but that's because it doesn't need to. Like it doesn't 354 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 1: have to because of the way the bill is designed. 355 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: How it approaches encryption is actually a little more insidious. UM. 356 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: It allows the fact that encryption exists on the platform 357 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: itself to be used as evidence against a company in 358 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: order to find it liable for hosting child sexual abust materials, 359 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: so they can use the fact that encryption exists as evidence, 360 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: which is wild, like this is this is the thing. 361 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: This is the thing that CCP does a lot like 362 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: with you know, like they'll they'll use they'll use the 363 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 1: fact that, like somebody is using a VPN for example, 364 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: as evidence that they're this happens constantly and and it's 365 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: It makes a lot of a lot of encryption stuff 366 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: incredibly unsafe because like you know, you show up with 367 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 1: your phone, you have signal on it, and the CCP 368 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: is like, well, you're this is this is this is proof. 369 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: We're just gonna we're gonna lock it up and throw 370 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: away the key. Yeah, and yeah. It's extremely bad. So 371 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: the result is that laws will make companies liable, um 372 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: if they don't scan and report user content for child 373 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: sexual abust materials, which they can't do unless they make 374 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: break encryption. You know, big companies like Apple um are 375 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: going to full to to protect themselves. Um, so earn 376 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: it would is like it coerces these sites and plat 377 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: forms and services to do this sort of scanning and 378 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: not just some messages but all online content encrypted or not. 379 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: Um Companies that handle online content would have to weigh 380 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: the benefit of their users securely encrypting their data content 381 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: against the legal risk of doing so. Um and encryption 382 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: becomes much harder when it, you know, puts the company's 383 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: bottom line at risk. And and and and like and 384 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: and and and. Encryption isn't just her messages, right, It's 385 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: it's not just on signal. It secures most of the Internet, 386 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: or at least at least a lot of it, keeping 387 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: what you do allegedly you know, private unsafe online. You 388 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: can't have a secure internet where all the content is 389 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: also screened because you can't haven't encryption alongside mass scanning requirements. 390 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: It's just so, this isn't just an attack on encryption. 391 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: It's attack on any fund of fundamental security that the 392 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: Internet you know has. Yeah, and you know there's lots 393 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: of like god, there are lots of extremely technical reasons 394 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: why this isn't extremely bad things like it's like okay, yeah, 395 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: like you you you think you think malware is bad, 396 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: now like God, Like, look like the things the things 397 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: that will happen, Like you you think people are stealing apes? Now, 398 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: like the things that will happen if you have to 399 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: if you have to deal with an Internet that's unencrypted 400 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: or you know, like yeah, it's an absolute horror show, 401 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,439 Speaker 1: like if yeah, like I yeah, it's this. This is 402 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: a thing bad enough that like I do not have 403 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: the words to express how catastrophic this would be, because 404 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 1: it's just a fundamental structure of the Internet. It really 405 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: is not just for messages like the earned uh miss 406 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: and fast document also like specifically attacks Amazon for not 407 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: scanning enough of its content um and since Amazon is 408 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: the home of Amazon Web Services, which hosts a huge 409 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: number of websites, that implies that like the bill's aim 410 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: is to ensure that anything hosted online also gets scanned. 411 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: Like like like everything the online service providers, even the 412 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: smallest ones, will be compelled to scan user content with 413 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: government approve software like photo dona um And if earnest 414 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 1: supporters succeed in getting large platforms like cloud fair and 415 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: that some web services to scan, they may not even 416 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: need to compel smaller websites because the government will already 417 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: have access to the data through the cloud platforms. So like, 418 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: as long as they get you know, these big hosting platforms, 419 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: they don't even like, they won't even need need to 420 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: bather with a lot of with a lot of smaller sites. 421 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: I think there's another thing I think that's probably worth 422 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: mentioning here, which is so we don't really have like 423 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: the time to fully go into this in this episode, 424 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: but like there's a lot of this sort of stuff 425 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: is being pushed by these incredibly right wing evangelical anti 426 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: porn groups and their goal is just to eliminate anything 427 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: that is not like part of their sort of fundamentalist Christianity, yes, 428 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: from the internet and those people. And this is this 429 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: is particularly relevant to this because those people are going 430 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: to find a way to to to like to to 431 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: bring lawsuits against these companies specifically so that they specifically 432 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: so they can do because this is you know, what 433 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: what you've done is say you've just handed them a gun. 434 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: Poor insides will all be taken down because they'll be 435 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 1: because they'll be facing so many endless lawsuits um like 436 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 1: only like only fans will no longer host ethical poor 437 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: like like none of this will have like all of 438 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: it will be taken down. No one like this will 439 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: this will attack sex workers to such an absurd degree. 440 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: Um it'll make base. It will make a lot of 441 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: if not most online sex work just impossible because there 442 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: will be so many lawsuits always happening that companies will 443 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: just always ban it just because they can't they can't 444 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: risk dealing with all those legal fees. Um it's it's yeah. 445 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: And and and in the fact that state prosecutors and 446 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: private attorneys will be able to drag an online service 447 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,120 Speaker 1: provider into court over accusation that their users committed crimes 448 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: and then use the fact that the service chose to 449 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: encrypt like like chose to use encryption um at all, 450 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: as evidence against them. Is the fact that the strategy 451 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,479 Speaker 1: specifically allowed under earn it like makes the possibilities of 452 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: this type of thing just endless. Like like imagine imagine 453 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: like they'll be aild to take down signal so easily 454 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: because like it's it's it's it's wild all if they can, 455 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: if they can find one instance of you know, as 456 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: like as like a of of an abuser using signal 457 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: or has you signal, then basically all of signal decryption 458 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: will be severely threatened um because of the way that 459 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: legal finds will be forced onto this company. It's is 460 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: like specifically for stuff based like for any kind of 461 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: in any any service allowed in the States. And yeah, 462 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: it's really frustrating because you know, people including senators UM 463 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: who are pro earn it, say that the new tools 464 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: are necessary to tackle the issue of online child abuse 465 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: and the and the distribution of illegal materials online. But 466 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: you know, obviously, like possessing, viewing, or distributing child poorn 467 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: or child sexual abust materials is already written into laws. 468 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: Is a serious like, it's an extremely serious crimes can do, yes, 469 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: and it has a broad framework of existing laws seeking 470 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: to eradicate it. Right, people could like companies can already 471 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: get in federal trouble if they're find if they're found 472 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: to continue if like you know, if stuff is found 473 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: and they continue to host it, or if they're going 474 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: if like their stated purposes to host it, like like 475 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: some of the most trouble you can get into, UM 476 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: at least at least like on the books, UM, because 477 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: you know you can you can look at you know, 478 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: how many cops are involved with this type of thing 479 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: as like other than being like like like as evidence said, 480 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: like it doesn't like it may not get enacted upon. 481 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: Always there was there was a horrible story recently of 482 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: a teacher who sorry, this is this is this is 483 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: this is going to be quite graphic. UM, but of 484 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 1: a like skip ahead like a minute or two if 485 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: you don't want to. UM of a teacher who fed 486 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: students um food containing her husband's seamen um. Her husband 487 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: was a cop and her and her husband again who 488 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: was a cop, and the also the leader of a 489 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: swatch team UM had raped multiple children um as like 490 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 1: it had and had had pictures of children UM and 491 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: like like both of them were doing this together. So 492 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: like yeah, that's like the leader of swat teams like police. 493 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: Like the fact that like if you if you look 494 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: at the people often doing this type of stuff, it's 495 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: cops a lot of the time. Like the cops raped 496 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: so many um kids that that they that they arrest 497 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: and detain. It is shocked. Like you you can google 498 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: this every week and you'll find you'll find like new 499 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: reports of it. It is, it is. It is horrific. UM. 500 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: And you know, online service providers that have actual knowledge 501 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: of an apparent or imminent violation of current laws around 502 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: child sexual best materials are required to report it or 503 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: they will face legal trouble. UM. Yeah, like you you 504 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: could you can kill people and get in less trouble 505 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 1: with the law, then then you will get if if 506 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: if you intentionally do this stuff, like there are scenarios 507 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: where you can kill people where you won't get in 508 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 1: trouble with law. There is no scenario where you do 509 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: you you like you you intentionally do like you intentionally 510 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,119 Speaker 1: do this stuff where you will like unless you're a 511 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: cop with like with with the legal protection of your 512 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: other cops won't rat you out, like yeah, or you're 513 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: like very very rich, yeah, like you know, unless unless 514 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: you have extra legal protection. Yeah, like you are fucking 515 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: going to vanish. So yeah, Like we already have a 516 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: lot of stuff to deal with this and the methods 517 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: proposed by Earnest would not only chip at the last 518 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: semblance of privacy online, but it would all but it 519 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: would arguably make actually combating real instances of online check 520 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: of online child abuse a lot more difficult. It would 521 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: pressure distributors and abusers um into harder to find corners 522 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: of the Internet that don't fall under big tech companies UM. Plus, 523 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: the massive increase in content scanning would produce so many 524 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: false flags it would clog up any effort to find 525 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: action materials because so much stuff is gonna get flagged. Right, 526 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 1: it's gonna you're gonna get a wave of so many 527 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: images that you have that you have sort sort through 528 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 1: and figure out if the people in it actually are 529 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: under age because a lot of people who look thirty 530 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: and sorry, a lot of people that are thirty can 531 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: also look under age sometimes, like like with lighting with 532 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: ef fect like it it's it is, it will be. 533 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: It's gonna it's gonna like be such a task. Um 534 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: And we can only see this in effect with new 535 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: scanning techniques used by Facebook. They that have produced millions 536 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: of reports to law enforcement, most of them are accurate 537 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: um And of course federal law enforcement use uses this 538 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: massive number of reports produced by low quality scanning software 539 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: to you know, suggest there's a huge uptick in these images. Thus, 540 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, armed with misleading statistics, the same law enforcement 541 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: groups make new demands to break encryption um or with 542 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: earn it hold companies liable if they don't scan user 543 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: contact those kind of algorithms, right, Like you know, okay, 544 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: this this is an oversimplification, but like to to to 545 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: conceptualize why this is a bad idea, like these these 546 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: are these like this is the this is the same 547 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: stuff that like you know how, you know how, there's 548 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: there's those there's those like trending topics on Twitter, and 549 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: they'll they'll they'll show you a tweet and the tweet 550 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 1: will be like I don't know, they'll they'll they'll be 551 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: someone talking about a subway sandwich and it'll get like 552 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: it'll show up under trains because it's the subway like this. 553 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: Those are the algorithms that they want to fucking run 554 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: the entire Internet through. I have seen I have seen 555 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: some very I've seen some very erotic bell peppers. Um 556 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: and like it's it's gonna like that. These things aren't 557 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: aren't going to be good um and like independent child 558 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: protection experts are not asking for systems to read everyone's 559 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: private messages. Rather, they recognize that children, particularly children that 560 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: might be abused or exploited, actually need encrypted in private 561 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: messaging just as much, if not more, than the rest 562 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: of us. Like no one, including the most vulnerable among us, 563 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: can have privacy or security online without strong encryption. Um 564 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: And the Earner Act doesn't really just target big tech. 565 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: What it does is it targets every individual Internet user, 566 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: treating all of us as potential criminals who deserve to 567 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: have every single message, photographer, document scanned and you know, 568 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: compared against a government database like directly directly to law enforcement. Um. 569 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: And since direct government surveillance would be you know, blatantly 570 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: unconstitutional and promote public outrage, U earn it to use 571 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: as tech companies, you know, from the largest smalls the 572 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: smallest ones as its tools to kind of bypass that 573 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: constitutional like barrier um because yeah, if you, if you, 574 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,719 Speaker 1: if you, if you, if you hit the touch companies 575 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: where it hurts, they will not allow this type of 576 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 1: stuff at all. Like and this is also the thing 577 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: you can you know, you cannot deny that this is 578 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: also just part of a larger effect to ban porn 579 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: um and just to ban any kind of sex work 580 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: online as well. Like you you cannot deny that this 581 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: is this is this is definitely an ingrained part of this, 582 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: particularly with a lot a lot of its supporters and 583 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: of course you know Senator Lindsay Graham appealing to that 584 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: side of the Republicans. This is this is a big 585 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: part of just trying to you know, remove porn and 586 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: remove um, you know, any not safe work material from 587 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: being hosted online. So the strategy is to get private 588 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: companies to do the dirty work of mass surveillance. UM. 589 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: You know it's the same. It's the same tactic that 590 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: government's try to use this year, trying to you know, 591 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: convince Apple to subvert its own encryption and scan all 592 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,479 Speaker 1: of its users photos. Um. It's the same strategy that 593 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: the that the UK law enforcement is using to convince 594 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: the British public to give up their privacy, having spent 595 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: public money on a laughable public publicity campaign that demon 596 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: as his companies that use encryption. UM. So that that's 597 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: really how it's operating. UM. I do want to shout out, um, 598 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: uh the e f F for provide a lot of 599 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: the kind of research that I used for compiling stuff 600 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: on on this episode. UM, thank you, thank you, thank 601 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: you e f F. UM you often often do good work. 602 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: That's the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They focus a lot on 603 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: like Internet privacy issues. UM. And I do want to 604 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: point people to a a link tree. It is uh 605 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: you know l I N K t R dot E 606 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: slash stop earn it. UM. So yeah, you can find 607 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: different ways to UM. You know, if you're the type 608 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: of person that enjoys calling representatives or something, it has 609 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: it has links for that kind of thing. It has 610 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: links to send you know, automated messages onto your representative 611 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: to vote no on the Internet Act. That has too 612 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: you know if if you're a type of person that 613 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: enjoys the signing petitions UM, it has it has more 614 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: info on what earn it is and what it does UM, 615 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of other stuff around, you know, 616 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: organizing to help stop this bill. There's like discord channel 617 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: that have people organizing to to stop this bill. UM 618 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: links links forward on that has info on like actions 619 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: you can take. UM. So yeah, I would uh if 620 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: if you're interested in like looking for the different ways 621 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: that can maybe you know contribute. You know, not no 622 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: single person that can make an impact, but you know 623 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: enough people, enough people can UM. So yeah that's link 624 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: tree slash stop earn It UM. And then also again 625 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: another shout out to the e f F. Yeah, I 626 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: wanted to make say two closing things before we close 627 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: this out. One if if you think that if you 628 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: think that once you're handing the entire context of the 629 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: Internet over to the government who run through scanning all groups, 630 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: that the only thing they're ever going to scan for 631 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: is child pornography, I have no n f D to 632 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: sell you. It is a picture of a bridge. Once 633 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: once you buy this n f T of the bridge, 634 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: you will own the Brooklyn Bridge Contact contact me for 635 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: more details. The second thing is that, um, you know, 636 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,239 Speaker 1: when when we talk about like when we we talk 637 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,719 Speaker 1: about anti porn stuff, when we talk about how you know, 638 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,719 Speaker 1: the way you get around this is by banning all 639 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: different work content. Right. The other thing that almost immediately 640 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: gets banned. It's inevitably when when when when when companies 641 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: for for whatever reason, And this is true just of 642 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: of of companies that are trying to comply with you know, 643 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: like the app store or stuff like that, like when 644 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: when when whenever you get target things that target not 645 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: for work content, they inevitably, inevitably without failed, target queer 646 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,919 Speaker 1: content content, literally nothing at all through sexuality. Because that's 647 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: you know, this is this is this is this has 648 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: always been like accusing queer people of of being child 649 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: predators has been the attack line on queer people. Queer 650 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: people are always on the front line of all of 651 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, they will always be the first people impacted. 652 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,879 Speaker 1: They will be the first people demonized, even if even 653 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: if even if it's not even not sayek material if 654 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: if it has if it has nothing to do with it, 655 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: it will still always always be impacted more than basically 656 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: anyone else. Yeah, I mean we've we've been seeing this 657 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: on YouTube but constantly lots of lots of people who 658 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: just you know, make trans content channels are always being 659 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: banned or demonetized, yep marked as a belt content like yeah, 660 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: it's it's horrifying. And if if if you want an Internet, 661 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: not even just if you want to Internet that has 662 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: like sex on it, if you want to Internet that 663 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: has queer people on it, right expressing themselves in in 664 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: in in in any way that's not like literally just 665 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: it's straight person but you say queer right, if if 666 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: that's a thing that you think is valuable and if 667 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: you and if you think that you know it is 668 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: important for core people to be able to express themselves 669 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: for their own health and safety, Like you have to 670 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: op post this, Yes you absolutely, Um, I guess what 671 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: one final thing I'll add because they know someone will 672 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: probably message me about it. Um. There is a slight 673 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: opinion piece by somebody saying that this bill would actually 674 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: let child abusers walk free because they could use the 675 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: fact that this bill essentially, um, you know, compels companies 676 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,239 Speaker 1: to do scanning software via via government like mandate because 677 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: of this bill. They would that because because in their mind, 678 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: this could possibly violate the Fourth Amendment to this would 679 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: allow abusers, um, the evidence that they was collected to 680 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: prosecute abusers to become invalid in court. So this would 681 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,240 Speaker 1: actually also make the This would just make this would 682 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: make the bill um uh you know, actually make people 683 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: walk free. I do not agree with this take. I 684 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: don't think that's how it would work out at all, 685 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: because especially for you know, you can use this for 686 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: like political organizing. You can use this for a lot 687 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: of like you can use the same argument for a 688 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: lot of cases, and it never works out that way 689 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: because the government does not care about that sort of thing. Um, 690 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: it's it's it's not that's not how it works. Um. 691 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: I mean, like these things that get violated like in 692 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: theory that does not know that's the way, like they 693 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: illegally seized you know, ten Kazinski's you know, uh, you know, 694 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 1: like evidence and yeah, it doesn't it doesn't matter, like 695 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: that's that's that's that's that's not gonna matter. Because then 696 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: this bill would be seen as a good thing because 697 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: it would prevent people from you know, then encryption wouldn't 698 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: be necessary because then none of the evidence that people 699 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: would you know, would have gathered would ever be admissible 700 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: in court. And that is that they would never design 701 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 1: the bill like that that. That's not that's not the case. 702 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: I disagree with this take. So do not send me 703 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: this article saying actually it's going to have this happen, 704 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: because I do not believe it, because this assumes that 705 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: the government operates like like coherently and operates like you know, 706 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: like no, the government does does does not care no, 707 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: like again, like the First Amendment is superseded by traffic law, 708 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: like you know that you're not going to be able 709 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,799 Speaker 1: to use this. This isn't like this will secretly let 710 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: abusers go free. This is not secretly a good thing 711 00:37:53,160 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: because it will make all evidence inadmissible in court. Bullshit anyway, Anyway, 712 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 1: I'll give a final shout out to the link tree 713 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 1: link tree slash stop earn it um. That's l I 714 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: n k T dot e er slash stop earn it 715 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: um if you're the type of person that likes doing 716 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: those types of things. And also it has like links 717 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 1: like discord channels for other types of organizing beyond you know, 718 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 1: petitions and calling and senators and setting messages and blah 719 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. Anyway, that's the episode. UM, thank 720 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 1: you for listening. I just thought, I just thought, this 721 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: is this is this is an important thing enough that 722 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:34,479 Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. I have not seen enough people 723 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: talking about the earn It Act and the way it 724 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: does seriously threatened digital privacy. And because it was approved 725 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: by the Senate Judiciary Committee to be pushed forward, um, 726 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: it is actually chugging along on the slow legal process, 727 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: so it's gotten further than what it got in. So 728 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,839 Speaker 1: I thought it was actually worth talking about, um, you know, 729 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 1: for privacy issues, how it affects queer people, how it 730 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 1: affects sex workers, um, and all all that general thing. 731 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, and also I wanted you know that it's 732 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: very easy to feel hopefuls with this kind of stuff, 733 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: but like we've beaten legislation. Like one of my one 734 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: of my formative childhood experiences was when when we beat 735 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: when we beat SOPA and people like we can beat them. 736 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: It takes it takes a lot, takes a lot of mobilization, 737 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,719 Speaker 1: but yeah, like we we we we we I know 738 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: we can. I know we can beat this because we've 739 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,359 Speaker 1: beaten things like it before. Agreed, all right, that nothing 740 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: for us today. If you want to find us on 741 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,800 Speaker 1: a currently more secure than what it could be Internet, 742 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: you can follow us on Twitter at cool Zone Media, 743 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,560 Speaker 1: um and happened here pod. I think apparently Instagram too, 744 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: So that's cool. If you're an Instagram person, good for you, 745 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: because Twitter Twitter is bad. Um. You can find me 746 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,719 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Hungry about Tie. Um, yeah, find me 747 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: at at h R three You can't, you can't. Indeed 748 00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: that that do? Is it for us? Um? Encrypture? Hey everybody, 749 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: Robert Evans here? Um obviously, as I'm sure everyone is 750 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: being bombarded with. The war in Ukraine is in its 751 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 1: fifth day right now, something like that. Um, we just 752 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more than three 753 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those are going 754 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: to be very in exact numbers, but it's it's likely 755 00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: to be somewhere between like fifty and a hundred thousand 756 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,839 Speaker 1: people per day being made refugees, and it's possible that's 757 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of the coverage 758 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: that you will have seen at this point UM is 759 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: going to focus on heroic pieces of of of resistance, 760 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,439 Speaker 1: you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms, throwing 761 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some of 762 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: that's going to be a propaganda, some of that A 763 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,360 Speaker 1: decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a 764 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not 765 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: gotten nearly as much plays the situation at the border 766 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: of Ukraine in Poland UM because this refugee crisis is enormous, 767 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: but it's also not sexy, and it points to a 768 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: number of things that are ugly about some of the 769 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict, including the 770 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 1: conduct of President Zelinsky, who is I think handled himself 771 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 1: objectively well as a wartime leader, and who is also, 772 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 1: as you'll hear in the interview that's about to follow, 773 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: made some decisions that have had a catastrophic impact on 774 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: people's lives. So this is an interview conducted by a journalist, 775 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,319 Speaker 1: uh James Stout, who is working with us on this 776 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 1: project and with another project that will be launching soon. 777 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,360 Speaker 1: With a person, an individual an American who was well 778 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 1: has a couple of different passports, but with a person 779 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: who was in Ukraine when the invasion began and left 780 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: and eventually wound up leaving on foot with tens of 781 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other people for the Polish border. So this 782 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: is a story of what it is like to flee 783 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: a country at the beginning of a war, um and 784 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians are going 785 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:22,959 Speaker 1: to be facing every single day. So please listen. Hey, manny, 786 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: how are you. I'm doing well, How are you good? Good? 787 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 1: It's ready to keep you up late and period exhausted. No, no, 788 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: it's okay, it's okay. UM. I actually just arrived at 789 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: a new hostel in New City. UM, and I'm going 790 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: to be up for a couple more hours anyway, So 791 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great, Do you 792 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 1: mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent, and 793 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 1: let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm I'm 794 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: bringing a piece for NBC on the the refugee situation 795 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: that's emerging, and I'm also helping to make a podcast 796 00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: for I Heart Radio about a similar thing. It's okay, 797 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: with you. We'll use the audio for one and then 798 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: some of your words for another. Absolutely, how is my 799 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,759 Speaker 1: audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's really really good 800 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: that you wanted to set a phone or you on 801 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 1: a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I don't 802 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well. 803 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record 804 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 1: it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording. 805 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a 806 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go 807 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So 808 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was 809 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: in Kiev, um eight days ago? Um, and then I 810 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,560 Speaker 1: went to Leviv four days ago. Okay, And had you 811 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had 812 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: been I've been in Ukraine or I had been in 813 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine in total for one week? Okay, so you know 814 00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: that long? And you so you ride Kieth, you went 815 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,640 Speaker 1: to Lviv. Can you remember, like where you were when 816 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: you found out that the invasion was happening and that 817 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,840 Speaker 1: it was going to go posting bass and into the Ukraine. Yeah, 818 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 1: of course. So I woke up on the morning of 819 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: twenty four February to the sound of air raid sirens outside, 820 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,359 Speaker 1: and it was a very confusing sound. I had never 821 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,399 Speaker 1: heard it right, sirens in real life. I just heard 822 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 1: them in movies and television shows and such, and I 823 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 1: knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even have to 824 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: check the news. Um and I did check the news 825 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: soon afterward, and there were bombings all over the country. 826 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss, which 827 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: is a city on KOs south of Leviv where I was, 828 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,120 Speaker 1: and there were so many rumors flying around. There were 829 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,800 Speaker 1: rumors that the Russians were coming to Leviv at that moment, 830 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 1: which was not the case but can still be the 831 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: case very soon anyway. So we heard I heard these 832 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: these air raids sirens as I woke up, and I 833 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,520 Speaker 1: shook away my roommate, who was a British journalist, UM 834 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: and I told him we might be bombed any minute. 835 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 1: So we went outside to try and find a shelter. 836 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: UM pretty much still in our nightclothes. We went outside 837 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,040 Speaker 1: to try and find a shelter, and they were loudspeakers 838 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,800 Speaker 1: saying uh, everybody remained calm, fine, shelter helped the elderly 839 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: stockpile water, and it was repeating this on repeat, and 840 00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,800 Speaker 1: people were shuffling along. There was a sense of muted panic. 841 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: So it was an outright panic, but it was a 842 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: sense of urgency, I guess you could call it. And um, 843 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: we were at war and that was when I realized 844 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: that Ukraine was being invaded at that very moment. Wow, yeah, 845 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: it sounds dramatic. And at that point you went to 846 00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,879 Speaker 1: the shelter. I'm guessing, so did you spend some time 847 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,319 Speaker 1: then before making the decision to head to polent So 848 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,240 Speaker 1: after about fifteen minutes, the air rates I would stopped. 849 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 1: The news generally came around the city that Lviv was 850 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: not about to be bombed, but nevertheless, massive exodus of 851 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: people began from Leviv at that moment. Because okay, we're 852 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: safe for now, but for how long are we safe? 853 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,960 Speaker 1: Was the general sentiment that was around. So, Um, everybody 854 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: just started making for the train station, the bus station, 855 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,920 Speaker 1: They got into their cars. People were just leaving. There 856 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: were huge lines at the A T. M s. There 857 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 1: were huge lines at the grocery stores. People were buying 858 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: no perishables. Um, it was just not a panic pull 859 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,880 Speaker 1: out I would call it, but it was an urgent departure. 860 00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 1: It was an urgent exodus that was happening. And so 861 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,360 Speaker 1: me and my roommate we went to the train station, 862 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 1: waited in the line for two hours to see if 863 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: there were tickets. There were no tickets. We went to 864 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 1: the bus station. We waited in the line for one 865 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,760 Speaker 1: hour to see if there were tickets. There were no tickets, 866 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,359 Speaker 1: um And so then we started to get a little 867 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,880 Speaker 1: worried because it was noon on the day of the invasion. 868 00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,280 Speaker 1: Russian forces were everywhere in the country. Of our bombings 869 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,840 Speaker 1: everywhere in the country, and we had to leave, and 870 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: there was no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. 871 00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,799 Speaker 1: Of course, the airport was being bombed a few hours 872 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: later there um And so we tried to look into 873 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 1: a car higher. We tried to see if we could 874 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: rent a car. We tried to see if we could 875 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: take an Uber or a lift or a blah black car, 876 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: which is the Ukrainian version of Uber, and none of 877 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: those options were available. Because everybody was thinking the same thing, 878 00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:23,600 Speaker 1: and in a sense of almost resigned despair, we decided 879 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: that it would be best to just start walking west 880 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,359 Speaker 1: and see what happened, And there was around noon when 881 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: we began to walk west. Wow. Um, So when you 882 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: set off to walk, did you just sort of take 883 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 1: what you could carry and that's sort of what the 884 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,040 Speaker 1: most people were doing. Or did you get the sense 885 00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: that at least the people were like preparing for a 886 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,720 Speaker 1: long period of time away when they left. The people 887 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: certainly were not preparing for a long period of time away. 888 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: The people were not preparing for war. Um. For the 889 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,320 Speaker 1: longest time, President z of Lynsky in the Ukrainian government 890 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: maintained that there would be no war. They called indications 891 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,640 Speaker 1: of war alarmists that called them ludicrous. And uh, it 892 00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody 893 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:07,920 Speaker 1: sort of woke up and said there's going to be 894 00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,719 Speaker 1: a war. So I remember the last day before the invasion, 895 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 1: people were getting ready, people were waiting at the A T. 896 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,799 Speaker 1: M s. People were buying groceries, people were packing. But 897 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,440 Speaker 1: it was not before before that time nobody was getting 898 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: ready for the war. And so when the war struck, everybody, uh, 899 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,759 Speaker 1: everybody just sort of left hastily, and it was terrifying 900 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: departure of a sudden and terrifying departure because people didn't 901 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,000 Speaker 1: know what to do and they just sort of grabbed 902 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,360 Speaker 1: what they had and they ran. Luckily for me, in 903 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: my roommate, we were traveling with, you know, just one 904 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: pack or so because we were not living in Ukraine, um, 905 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 1: and so we were able to just carry what we 906 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: had on our backs. Yeah. So he told me through 907 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,080 Speaker 1: that walk then it's I think that's sort of like 908 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: forty three miles, is that right? That's that's right. So 909 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:56,759 Speaker 1: we did take a municipal buss a little bit of 910 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,480 Speaker 1: the way, which are from municipal bus. I believe it 911 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: was five kilometers down the roadroad, um. Five kilometers being 912 00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: like three miles down the road um. And the total 913 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: distance from Leviv to the borders eight eighty kilometers sorry 914 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did not make a 915 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: dent at all in the distance. And it was noon 916 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,840 Speaker 1: when we started, and we knew for a fact that um, 917 00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 1: that we would not make it before nightfall. And we 918 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,160 Speaker 1: knew that and we were terrified at that. So at 919 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: first we walked along the countryside was picturesque, it was beautiful, 920 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:32,040 Speaker 1: It was indistinguishable from holiday during springtime. There was a 921 00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,520 Speaker 1: fair fair weather was sunny, um, and no one could 922 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,319 Speaker 1: even tell that the nation was at war. There was 923 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,480 Speaker 1: really nobody else walking on the road besides us in 924 00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: the beginning, and the first uh twenty kilometers, I would say, um. 925 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,280 Speaker 1: And then we started seeing long lines of the petrol stations. 926 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: Every everywhere was out of gas. There nobody had gas. Um. 927 00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,120 Speaker 1: There was just no ability to fuel cars. And as 928 00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,480 Speaker 1: a consequence of that, UM, cars were running out of 929 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 1: gas and they were being abandoned on the side of 930 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: the road, which caused further traffic pile ups, and soon 931 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:13,760 Speaker 1: the road was impenetrable to vehicles. UM. And so because 932 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,680 Speaker 1: of this, everybody started getting out of their cars and walking. 933 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,720 Speaker 1: And so these families who had planned to escape Mukraine 934 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 1: to Poland in their cars and carry their lives with 935 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,000 Speaker 1: them were suddenly faced with the hard decision of taking 936 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,960 Speaker 1: what they could carry with them. Yeah, that just sounds terrible. 937 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,879 Speaker 1: That sounds really difficult. And I'm sure you saw like 938 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,960 Speaker 1: older folks and younger people as well, with people sort 939 00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: of and struggling to that's a long walk, right, It's 940 00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: gon a walk, and everyone could do it, must be 941 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,919 Speaker 1: very dear. It's a difficult walk for a young man, 942 00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,959 Speaker 1: and many old women and little children under the age 943 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,240 Speaker 1: of five or forced on this march because there really 944 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,680 Speaker 1: wasn't no other option for them. It was either go 945 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 1: back to Ukraine and risk being bombed, risk being under 946 00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 1: Russian occupation, or it was get out of your car 947 00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: and walk in the wintertime with no food or water, 948 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:08,800 Speaker 1: no toilet, four fifty miles. And it was just this 949 00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,600 Speaker 1: nightmare scenario because all these people were on the road. 950 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,080 Speaker 1: There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't negotiate the mud. 951 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,640 Speaker 1: There were mothers with strollers who couldn't get get the 952 00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: children um out, and the children were crying, and the 953 00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: children were asking why are we here, what it will 954 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,960 Speaker 1: be doing? Why did we have to leave home and 955 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,840 Speaker 1: stand and walk fifty miles in the middle of winter 956 00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: um And the old people were sort of resigned to it. 957 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 1: They There was one old woman I passed who was 958 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: using a cane and she was hobbling along jade to backpack, 959 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: and I asked her where are you going, because we 960 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: were a part we were a long long way from 961 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,960 Speaker 1: the border, and she said, I'm going to Poland, very simply, 962 00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 1: it was a very matter of fact um statement. And 963 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,319 Speaker 1: so these people walked with a sense of duty and 964 00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,000 Speaker 1: a sense of urgency, and um, it was just a 965 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,319 Speaker 1: very tragic hymn terran scene. Yeah, I can imagine. And 966 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,440 Speaker 1: that was a major that was a major route that 967 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: you're run like a major road that just become impossible. 968 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't one of the bigger highways, but it was 969 00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,000 Speaker 1: I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian M eleven, and 970 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,920 Speaker 1: it runs east west throughout the country and uh, yeah, 971 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,560 Speaker 1: it's one of the major roads and it had become 972 00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:24,360 Speaker 1: completely clogged. Yeah, Jesus so on arrival in in Poland 973 00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,120 Speaker 1: or the border, and I understand that there's some men 974 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,480 Speaker 1: like broadly defined as like military age or eighteen to sixty, 975 00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: I think aren't allowed us and leave because they they 976 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,880 Speaker 1: have they have to stay in it and enlist. Is 977 00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: that right? Did you see? Yes? The border was absolutely 978 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: the worst part for that reason. About five kilometers from 979 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:47,279 Speaker 1: the border. At the end of our walk, we were 980 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: feeling relieved, we were feeling like finally we've made it. 981 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:55,080 Speaker 1: Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving by and 982 00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,320 Speaker 1: announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their own voices, Um, 983 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:04,160 Speaker 1: all men must stay, All men between the ages of 984 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: eighteen and sixty have to stay get out of line now. 985 00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,719 Speaker 1: And so the fathers naturally asked, because there were a 986 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,600 Speaker 1: lot of fathers who were there to protect their families, 987 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: to safeguard their families, and to provide for their families. Uh, 988 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: these fathers asked, how about us, we have to we 989 00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,919 Speaker 1: have little children, We have children under the age of five. 990 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:21,840 Speaker 1: How are we supposed to provide for them if you 991 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,919 Speaker 1: conscript us right here? The Ukrainian Army did not care. 992 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:28,440 Speaker 1: They pulled them away physically from their families. There were 993 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,840 Speaker 1: a lot of tears. There was a lot of crying. 994 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 1: There were a lot of hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, 995 00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:39,800 Speaker 1: mothers left, husbands, um, lovers left each other. People people 996 00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 1: just left. It was terrifying to watch. Um. Yeah, all 997 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,000 Speaker 1: these men were conscripted immediately into the army. Yeah, I 998 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,360 Speaker 1: can imagine. And what people at that point like, it 999 00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,279 Speaker 1: seems like that we're ready to be stoic. Up to 1000 00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,360 Speaker 1: that point, were people sort of resisting that, like just 1001 00:53:57,560 --> 00:53:59,800 Speaker 1: what they like, sort of sad but resigned to it. 1002 00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,320 Speaker 1: Was that was that well, that was when the panic 1003 00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,000 Speaker 1: began because everybody was sad, but resigned to their faith 1004 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,640 Speaker 1: of walking to Poland. But nobody was prepared for losing 1005 00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,560 Speaker 1: all the men. Um. So when all the men were lost, 1006 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,520 Speaker 1: when all the men were taken forcibly, and this was public, 1007 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 1: everybody could see these men being yanked from their families. 1008 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: People first started yelling at the soldiers that didn't do 1009 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: anything obviously, um and they were they were so angry 1010 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,239 Speaker 1: at the soldiers, and the soldiers were genet care um. 1011 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,399 Speaker 1: And then panic began because people realized, oh my god, 1012 00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: this this person who was here with us, who was 1013 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: a travel companion, who's a relative, now we have to 1014 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,759 Speaker 1: leave without him. And even more, he's going to the 1015 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,840 Speaker 1: front now and he is in great danger at the front. 1016 00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,080 Speaker 1: So people began pushing, they began shoving, they began being 1017 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: rude to one another. Um. There there was no sense 1018 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,440 Speaker 1: of empathy among the people at all, because it was 1019 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:58,560 Speaker 1: a panic to get across the border at that point. Um. 1020 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 1: So there were people fainting, uh, and that was really 1021 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 1: just overlooked. The people who fainted were sort of dragged 1022 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 1: to the side and left there. And I think they 1023 00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,880 Speaker 1: they made it. I don't know if they made it 1024 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:13,799 Speaker 1: out okay, They certainly didn't die, but there were people 1025 00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,200 Speaker 1: who were fainting. There are people who were sobbing there, 1026 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,799 Speaker 1: or people who were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. 1027 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,120 Speaker 1: It was just this sense of absolute human panic as 1028 00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: people just tried to escape in the last in the 1029 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: last five kilometers and especially in the last five was 1030 00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,000 Speaker 1: the very worst. So, yeah, terrible thing to see if 1031 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,680 Speaker 1: you hadn't stand you stay in touch. Want of the 1032 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:39,120 Speaker 1: lads who was conscripted, right, Yes, that that was a 1033 00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:45,919 Speaker 1: development from tonight. So while we were walking about this 1034 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,880 Speaker 1: was about fifteen kilometers out from the border, we met 1035 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: a young Ukrainian man UM and we just got to 1036 00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,359 Speaker 1: talking to him because I mean we could relate to him. 1037 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 1: We were about I'm about the same age as him, um, 1038 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,680 Speaker 1: and so I we were just like we're talking about 1039 00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:02,120 Speaker 1: our lives and it was almost as if the war 1040 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,840 Speaker 1: wasn't going on. And then we got to these army checkpoints, um, 1041 00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,000 Speaker 1: and they started calling all the men you have to 1042 00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:13,839 Speaker 1: you have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh, 1043 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight 1044 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,919 Speaker 1: in this war. And he tried to you know, sort of, um, 1045 00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,799 Speaker 1: stay with us, because we were foreigners. We were not 1046 00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,919 Speaker 1: We were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort 1047 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,120 Speaker 1: of tried to stay with us. He was he was 1048 00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: a student, He was trying not to fight in this 1049 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:31,960 Speaker 1: war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a 1050 00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:37,760 Speaker 1: girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we 1051 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 1: we were walking with him and I said, hey, do 1052 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,319 Speaker 1: you want to do an interview? He said sure, UM, 1053 00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,839 Speaker 1: and I started talking to him on camera and then 1054 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,040 Speaker 1: the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey, 1055 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,600 Speaker 1: you get out of line. And UM he said, I'm sorry, 1056 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,960 Speaker 1: I have to go, and he just gave me this look, 1057 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: like this despairing look, and he went with the soldier. UM. 1058 00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,520 Speaker 1: The two days later today, I Uh, he messaged me 1059 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and he said, because we by the way, 1060 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um. 1061 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,960 Speaker 1: He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I 1062 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,040 Speaker 1: saw that you mentioned me in uh in your Twitter 1063 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM, 1064 00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,440 Speaker 1: and he said, just letting you know I'm safe. Uh, 1065 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. UM. I 1066 00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 1: am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is 1067 00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:30,760 Speaker 1: my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he 1068 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:35,000 Speaker 1: would otherwise be in the east. But um, I'm not sure. 1069 00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: I just know that he was safe right now, and 1070 00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,440 Speaker 1: he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah, 1071 00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's 1072 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 1: in some rearrestu on roll, or if he's managed to 1073 00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: get out of it. To him, how I know that 1074 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,480 Speaker 1: he has managed to escape the brunt of the fighting 1075 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: with the Russians, that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, 1076 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,320 Speaker 1: but it's still a terrible thing to have to do with. 1077 00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: So it's my understanding. It said visa, there's visa free 1078 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:01,840 Speaker 1: entry into Podent right now, exactly right, that people can 1079 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:04,960 Speaker 1: walk aggressive. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute 1080 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,520 Speaker 1: breeze compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why, 1081 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:09,720 Speaker 1: but you have to wait in a long line in 1082 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,480 Speaker 1: Ukraine for an exit piece, just for permission to leave 1083 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the 1084 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: worst part because they were only letting ten people out 1085 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 1: every twenty minutes. That ten people get an ICET visa 1086 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,640 Speaker 1: every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand 1087 00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,600 Speaker 1: people at the border with US, and so that's that's 1088 00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,040 Speaker 1: where this panic happened is because every time they opened 1089 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,560 Speaker 1: that gate, every twenty minutes, and by the way, this 1090 00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,240 Speaker 1: is like two in the morning in the cold weather, 1091 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,480 Speaker 1: and people are as I mentioned crying, vomiting, fainting, um. 1092 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,640 Speaker 1: And so every time they opened that gate, there was 1093 00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,320 Speaker 1: a human crush to get to that gate, and it 1094 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:46,200 Speaker 1: closed it and they forced the people back, and then 1095 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,080 Speaker 1: it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And 1096 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,840 Speaker 1: this happened all night long. Um. And this was literally 1097 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous, 1098 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:58,680 Speaker 1: it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert 1099 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:03,520 Speaker 1: from your question, but very interesting. Poland was extremely easy 1100 00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:07,320 Speaker 1: to enter. There was no visa process. They understood, they 1101 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: led us through. I think they just barely looked at 1102 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:13,720 Speaker 1: our passports. Um. So yeah, it was it was easy. 1103 00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: Were you at that point, like obviously had no plans 1104 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:19,520 Speaker 1: or places to go? So the cold day house you 1105 00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,960 Speaker 1: with some kind of refugee housing that they put you in. 1106 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:25,680 Speaker 1: Uh not when I was there, Um, they did do that. 1107 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,800 Speaker 1: They did implement that about twelve hours after I arrived. Um. 1108 00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: But when I arrived, we were greeted immediately pretty much 1109 00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,960 Speaker 1: right out of the border facility with donuts and tea UM, 1110 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,439 Speaker 1: and so they gave us tonus, they gave us tea UM. 1111 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: And then they said, hey, there's a bus to Premisshill, 1112 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,360 Speaker 1: which is the city about fifteen kilometers west of the border, 1113 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 1: um where all the refugees are gathering. And they said 1114 00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:50,280 Speaker 1: there's a bus the Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. 1115 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,280 Speaker 1: And we got on that bus um and then we 1116 00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,880 Speaker 1: end up. We arrived in Premiershill and at that time 1117 00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:59,440 Speaker 1: refugees were responsible for their own accommodation. We managed to 1118 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,160 Speaker 1: book a room in a hotel with eight other refugees 1119 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:06,600 Speaker 1: UM in the room. Uh. And so I was sleeping 1120 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,479 Speaker 1: in this this room with eight other refugees. They didn't 1121 01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: want to talk to me. They were kind of despondent. 1122 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: They lost everything and so they were just very sad 1123 01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 1: the entire time that I was there. Yeah. But to 1124 01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,880 Speaker 1: answer your question about housing real quick, uh, about twelve 1125 01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,240 Speaker 1: hours after we arrived, they began setting up tents for 1126 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,600 Speaker 1: the refugees and that is where many of the refugees 1127 01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:30,640 Speaker 1: are living now. Are intense. Okay, you know that's a 1128 01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Polish government or the Red Cross or is that citizens 1129 01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:36,600 Speaker 1: to Poland? I have no idea which organization did that, 1130 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 1: but I can tell you that I did not see 1131 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: a single Red Cross or United Nations representative while I 1132 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,400 Speaker 1: was in Poland. Okay, interesting, Yeah, they can be sometimes 1133 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:48,640 Speaker 1: a little slow to react. Yeah, yeah, okay. So you 1134 01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,880 Speaker 1: then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able to really 1135 01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:54,440 Speaker 1: talk to the people there. It's understandable they probably had 1136 01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,400 Speaker 1: a very very difficult twenty four hours and we all 1137 01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,479 Speaker 1: have had yeah, I mean no talking being had pretty much. 1138 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,360 Speaker 1: Did you get a sense when as you met the 1139 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,480 Speaker 1: people walking there, crossing the border, et cetera, where people 1140 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,080 Speaker 1: did they have plans to be gone from Ukraine? Were 1141 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:14,280 Speaker 1: they thinking where can I stay for a long period 1142 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,720 Speaker 1: of time? Were they thinking I'm going to wait this 1143 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:22,800 Speaker 1: out in Poland? And see? Um. I was pleasantly surprised 1144 01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,440 Speaker 1: that a good half of the people that I spoke 1145 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 1: to in that in that convoy, in the refugee caravan 1146 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:33,320 Speaker 1: had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere in Europe. Um 1147 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,800 Speaker 1: and so they were all they had all called their 1148 01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,320 Speaker 1: relatives and they had arranged them to go to Western 1149 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,200 Speaker 1: Europe and meet the relatives. Okay, yes, and they've got 1150 01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:46,520 Speaker 1: a place and they're planning to at least. However, another 1151 01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:49,760 Speaker 1: half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified. 1152 01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 1: And those are the refugees that I stayed with the 1153 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,920 Speaker 1: hotel last night. Um, is that they're terrified and they 1154 01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 1: have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's 1155 01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:02,240 Speaker 1: really provided them with one yet and no. Yeah, that's difficult. 1156 01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,360 Speaker 1: And it seems like I don't be able to be 1157 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 1: interesting to see how the United States three acts because 1158 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 1: it hasn't really done very much so far. Um, it's amazing. 1159 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,080 Speaker 1: I heard that the reason I crossed at that place 1160 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,840 Speaker 1: rather than any other places that I heard that the U. S. 1161 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:18,640 Speaker 1: Army was there, and I did not see the U. S. 1162 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:20,280 Speaker 1: Army and I searched for them and I did not 1163 01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,320 Speaker 1: find them. So I don't know where the US is. Okay, Yeah, 1164 01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,720 Speaker 1: you haven't seen any any evidence of like any seeing 1165 01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:30,479 Speaker 1: no sort of n POS or government sort of aid 1166 01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,880 Speaker 1: for refugees yet. Then it's kind of surprising. As I 1167 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,520 Speaker 1: mentioned that, I haven't seen any U N representative, any 1168 01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:42,040 Speaker 1: Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I haven't seen any 1169 01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,520 Speaker 1: NGO or governmental representatives. I did see, of course Polish 1170 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,360 Speaker 1: government representatives at the border, but that was about it, right, 1171 01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,439 Speaker 1: it said from Polish people, do you get a sense 1172 01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:57,800 Speaker 1: of sort of solidarity? How I think it talking about? 1173 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,080 Speaker 1: So it was actually amazing to say. It was heartwarming 1174 01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,720 Speaker 1: to see the citizens of Freshman Dell are now swamped. 1175 01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:09,200 Speaker 1: Their population has been doubled or tripled by the incoming 1176 01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:13,840 Speaker 1: Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing great amounts of solidarity. 1177 01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: I actually attended a solidarity rally today, um where the 1178 01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,200 Speaker 1: citizens of Freshman Dill got together and they said ukraine 1179 01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 1: Is are our brothers and putin us clearly in the wrong, 1180 01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,920 Speaker 1: and we will stand with them, We will show solidarity 1181 01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: with them. And that was hard warming to say. I 1182 01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:30,760 Speaker 1: talked with a few of those Poles at that rally 1183 01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:33,439 Speaker 1: and they said, yeah, we knew this was coming and 1184 01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:35,480 Speaker 1: we prepared for it and we're ready to take in 1185 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,080 Speaker 1: as many as is necessary. Yeah, that's really nice to herrity. 1186 01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,920 Speaker 1: At least people are that sort of showing sortidarity with 1187 01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,520 Speaker 1: each other, in support with each other. And yes, yeah, 1188 01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,200 Speaker 1: so when you were on your way west, I presume 1189 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,720 Speaker 1: that like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right 1190 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,400 Speaker 1: you were to the saibected like in direct fire, or 1191 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:59,440 Speaker 1: you see any of that. No. However, there was about 1192 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,240 Speaker 1: fifty kilometers behind us a bombing. As I mentioned, we 1193 01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,360 Speaker 1: did not hear it, but there were reports of the 1194 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:08,720 Speaker 1: fighting going on all the time. But it's not catch 1195 01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,160 Speaker 1: up to us while we were in that while we 1196 01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:13,560 Speaker 1: were in that caravan, and um it would have been 1197 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,240 Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that it 1198 01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 1: did that, right. Yeah. And then, so you've been there 1199 01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:22,000 Speaker 1: for about a week. Had you previously been doing some 1200 01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:27,640 Speaker 1: reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine before. 1201 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:29,400 Speaker 1: But when I came to Ukraine and the war had 1202 01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,760 Speaker 1: not even started, I was mostly just doing interviews with 1203 01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:35,120 Speaker 1: civilians about what they thought about the possibility of war, 1204 01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:37,480 Speaker 1: about what they thought about the war and don Bass 1205 01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,640 Speaker 1: um most a lot of cultural stuff. It was kind 1206 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,360 Speaker 1: of boring. I mean not that not that war is 1207 01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:47,480 Speaker 1: interesting or fund but it was not really much of 1208 01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,840 Speaker 1: a story. Um. So. I was just doing interviews with 1209 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:54,320 Speaker 1: people about basic Ukrainian things. And then the war found 1210 01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,240 Speaker 1: us so and it seemed to have come as much 1211 01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,640 Speaker 1: a shock to them as it did to the rest 1212 01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:03,360 Speaker 1: of us. As I mentioned, nobody was prepared for war 1213 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,640 Speaker 1: until about twenty four hours before a hit and that's 1214 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,120 Speaker 1: when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will be a war, 1215 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,200 Speaker 1: and everybody began sort of to have a sense of 1216 01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,320 Speaker 1: urgency about them. Right. Did you see any of the 1217 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 1: citizen militias and citizens preparing for defense the people who 1218 01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,880 Speaker 1: decided to stay. Yes, I didn't see any of the militias. 1219 01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,479 Speaker 1: But I was went into a Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev 1220 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,400 Speaker 1: and there was a line almost off the door. People 1221 01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,600 Speaker 1: were buying guns, um and I asked one of the 1222 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,040 Speaker 1: people on the line, why are you buying a gun? 1223 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:37,840 Speaker 1: And he said, if the Russians come, I want to 1224 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,440 Speaker 1: be prepared. So a lot of people are buying guns 1225 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:45,120 Speaker 1: privately in Kiev, at least as of last week, okay, 1226 01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:46,840 Speaker 1: so that they weren't wait for the government to supply. 1227 01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,680 Speaker 1: Then they were supplying themselves with guns. I believe. I 1228 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,800 Speaker 1: believe the government's supply was a rather um, a sudden decision. 1229 01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,040 Speaker 1: I don't think the ukraining people were counting on it, 1230 01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:59,640 Speaker 1: and so they were supplying themselves and then buying like 1231 01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:02,560 Speaker 1: like ashing cough to the rifles. We talked about hunter 1232 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:05,200 Speaker 1: rifles and yeah, you can't buy the flashing cobs in 1233 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,280 Speaker 1: a gun store. They were buying sort of hunting rifles 1234 01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:11,560 Speaker 1: and shotguns Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah, really under equipped, all right. 1235 01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,320 Speaker 1: So they were just prepared to trying to get anything 1236 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,640 Speaker 1: they could get their hands on to look after themselves 1237 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:20,720 Speaker 1: and their families. Yeah, I bought that spray. Yeah that 1238 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,520 Speaker 1: it than nothing. H yeah, okay, so yeah there was 1239 01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,280 Speaker 1: there was. Did you see like the people you walked 1240 01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,200 Speaker 1: with with it? Did families tend to leave as a 1241 01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,320 Speaker 1: whole or did did some folks so say I'm going 1242 01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,160 Speaker 1: to stay behind and fight, or I'm going to stay 1243 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,920 Speaker 1: behind to stay and look after a house and you 1244 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 1: should leave. Did you get sent to that the vast 1245 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,800 Speaker 1: majority of people traveling were families as a whole. There 1246 01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:48,560 Speaker 1: were very few single travelers or partial families traveling. It 1247 01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 1: was I think that people have wanted to stick together 1248 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:52,880 Speaker 1: and so it was the vast majority of people traveling 1249 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,920 Speaker 1: were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, So stayed or left? Do 1250 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: you get a sense of how many people you said 1251 01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,800 Speaker 1: about two thousand put out the border, like of what 1252 01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: proportion of the city decided to leave for Poland not 1253 01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:09,960 Speaker 1: all the people that the border were from leviv Um. 1254 01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,000 Speaker 1: A lot of them have been traveling since that morning 1255 01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:16,920 Speaker 1: from Kiev, uh and other cities in UH central western Ukraine. 1256 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,440 Speaker 1: Um So, yeah, I was talking to people at the 1257 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:20,960 Speaker 1: border and a lot of them were from Kiev, A 1258 01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:24,360 Speaker 1: lot of them were from zephyr Zisa. I'm pronouncing that wrong. 1259 01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:26,240 Speaker 1: A lot of them were from turnal Pill or Ivana, 1260 01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:33,120 Speaker 1: frankisk Um or Odessa and Uh. So I would not 1261 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,520 Speaker 1: have any sort of conjecture on what percentage of the city. Also, 1262 01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,120 Speaker 1: still pretty early in the crisis, h because it was 1263 01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,640 Speaker 1: still the first day and it was fewer than twenty 1264 01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,040 Speaker 1: four hours after the invasion began. So I imagine the 1265 01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,040 Speaker 1: numbers are a lot higher now. When you were getting 1266 01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,560 Speaker 1: news right, if you were traveling, etcetera. Were you like 1267 01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:54,440 Speaker 1: on Whatsapple? What people on Twitter? Like? How are they 1268 01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:58,760 Speaker 1: getting news of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely everybody 1269 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:03,680 Speaker 1: was completely dark during the walk, um because I don't 1270 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,000 Speaker 1: know why, but there was no sense of cell reception, 1271 01:08:07,040 --> 01:08:09,160 Speaker 1: there was no sense of data reception, there was no 1272 01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,360 Speaker 1: sense of Internet connection at all during the walk. And 1273 01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,800 Speaker 1: so everybody I met, we we asked, we asked everybody 1274 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,760 Speaker 1: we met, do you have any news? And they said no, 1275 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,120 Speaker 1: do you have any news? Um? So nobody had any 1276 01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,759 Speaker 1: news until we got to the border. Some people had news, 1277 01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:27,960 Speaker 1: but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in 1278 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:29,920 Speaker 1: the dark about what was going on. And that was 1279 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,200 Speaker 1: terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun 1280 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:37,000 Speaker 1: and we didn't get to be updated on the first 1281 01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,120 Speaker 1: a half day of it. So yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, 1282 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,240 Speaker 1: and then on arrival you're faced with this news of 1283 01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,759 Speaker 1: this like sort of glitz cre egl lied right, bombing 1284 01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:51,479 Speaker 1: and right yes. Um. I mean we we saw a 1285 01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:53,720 Speaker 1: little bit of it in the morning that day, well 1286 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,800 Speaker 1: when we when we started out, um, but it had 1287 01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:00,320 Speaker 1: really accelerated and amplified by the time that we ved 1288 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,160 Speaker 1: Um and the Ukrainians were absolutely terrified at this because 1289 01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:07,840 Speaker 1: they did not realize what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, 1290 01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:10,760 Speaker 1: I think very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's 1291 01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:13,840 Speaker 1: in your own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when 1292 01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,240 Speaker 1: the fighting began in the Chernobyl exclusions or were you 1293 01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,679 Speaker 1: in Poland by then? When did the fighting began in Churnal? 1294 01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,679 Speaker 1: I believe about twenty four hours after the fighting began, 1295 01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,760 Speaker 1: big period. I was crossing into Poland twenty four hours 1296 01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,120 Speaker 1: after the fighting began period, So I was probably crossing 1297 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:35,240 Speaker 1: into Poland when that fighting began. Okay, it's interesting to know, 1298 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:37,439 Speaker 1: especially how sort of the older people or people who 1299 01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:41,479 Speaker 1: have been alive the nuclear accidents, you know. But I's 1300 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: wondering how they I mean, I've been talking to plenty 1301 01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:47,160 Speaker 1: of plenty of older people, and as I mentioned, the 1302 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,439 Speaker 1: older people especially were resigned to this because during the 1303 01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:52,840 Speaker 1: Soviet times, during the Cold War, the sort of thing 1304 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,920 Speaker 1: was common, um, And so the older people knew what 1305 01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:58,040 Speaker 1: was going on, and the younger people were the ones 1306 01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,599 Speaker 1: who were more panicking. That's in testing. Yeah, they said 1307 01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:05,720 Speaker 1: they've been raised with the fear of that. I suppose, right, 1308 01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:10,479 Speaker 1: And this happened in to like this is the biggest 1309 01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:13,000 Speaker 1: refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, because in nineteen eight 1310 01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:17,120 Speaker 1: and nine, when all the republics fell in the Warsaw Pact, 1311 01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:19,479 Speaker 1: so many people turched to the roads, and so the 1312 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,160 Speaker 1: older people were used to that kind of thing, um, 1313 01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,519 Speaker 1: But as I mentioned, the younger people were not so right. Yeah, yeah, 1314 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:29,320 Speaker 1: and so yeah, different reactions, I guess. And it's very 1315 01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:33,280 Speaker 1: young people obviously unable to understand what's going on. And 1316 01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:36,559 Speaker 1: beyond the there leaving their homes, which is said right, 1317 01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,240 Speaker 1: and especially the little children had no idea what was 1318 01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,120 Speaker 1: going on, and it was impossible to explain to them, 1319 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,960 Speaker 1: so nobody did um And so I can't imagine how 1320 01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,639 Speaker 1: terrifying this must have been as a child, not knowing 1321 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:50,519 Speaker 1: why you had to walk dozens of hours in the 1322 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,200 Speaker 1: cold carrying everything you had. Yeah, it's always the saddest 1323 01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,280 Speaker 1: thing to see children in those refugee situations when they 1324 01:10:57,479 --> 01:10:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't know what's going on and doing, 1325 01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,800 Speaker 1: think Rome right. Yeah, hopefully they're all safe. Hopefully they're 1326 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,479 Speaker 1: in Poland, hopefully they can go to safe places. I 1327 01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:12,360 Speaker 1: made several contacts during this trip, and as I mentioned, 1328 01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:13,960 Speaker 1: only one of one of them has gone back to me, 1329 01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,720 Speaker 1: So I hope the others get back to me soon. Yeah, 1330 01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:18,920 Speaker 1: that's tough, but you've got the sense of everyone since 1331 01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:21,840 Speaker 1: they weren't turned back. Per say, they just might be 1332 01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,080 Speaker 1: sort of not in touch because their phones don't charged 1333 01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:29,639 Speaker 1: or something like that. It's either their phones aren't aren't charged, 1334 01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:31,720 Speaker 1: or in the men men's case, they were sent to 1335 01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:35,760 Speaker 1: the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations 1336 01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:39,200 Speaker 1: or food for themselves or something I mean, everybody was 1337 01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,920 Speaker 1: just very busy trying to survive. Yeah, so I don't 1338 01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:44,479 Speaker 1: blame them if they don't, if they don't hop on 1339 01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:48,720 Speaker 1: social media. Yeah, yeah, of course. And of course yeah, 1340 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,439 Speaker 1: I did very very stressful time for everyone. Did you 1341 01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:53,400 Speaker 1: did you hear of anyone who has been sent to 1342 01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:55,760 Speaker 1: the east, either second hand or like three people you 1343 01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,640 Speaker 1: met people who are at the front already. Um, I 1344 01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,240 Speaker 1: do not have any contacts of anybody who was sent 1345 01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 1: to the East. From what I understand, the Ukrainian Army 1346 01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,599 Speaker 1: has a strict uh communication social media sort of policy, 1347 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,439 Speaker 1: and so none of these soldiers that I met one 1348 01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,320 Speaker 1: wanted to talk to me. I did not talk to 1349 01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,439 Speaker 1: any Ukrainian Army soldiers in uniform because they had a 1350 01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:20,519 Speaker 1: very strict policy. They could not talk to me, and 1351 01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:23,000 Speaker 1: too I could not get their contacts for much of 1352 01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:24,960 Speaker 1: the same reason. Okay, so they didn't want to talk 1353 01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:26,200 Speaker 1: to you, and I didn't want to talk to anyone. 1354 01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,240 Speaker 1: They were just looking for you know, they were just 1355 01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:30,400 Speaker 1: they were very stern and they did not want to 1356 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,720 Speaker 1: talk to anybody. So I talked to zero soldiers in 1357 01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:36,880 Speaker 1: uniform during this experience. Okay, yeah, so where are you now? 1358 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,479 Speaker 1: You've you've gone further west west desem Right, that's right. 1359 01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,840 Speaker 1: I took a long bus ride to crack Off today. Um, 1360 01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:47,320 Speaker 1: and so I'm now I'm crack Off Poland. Okay, how folks? 1361 01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,400 Speaker 1: Is it different there being about a little bit more distant. 1362 01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,599 Speaker 1: I've already talked to a few people and uh, well 1363 01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:57,120 Speaker 1: it's a Saturday night. They're going out to drink, and 1364 01:12:57,320 --> 01:13:01,960 Speaker 1: they they're saying, well, yeah, it's it's terrible that this 1365 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:06,320 Speaker 1: war is happening two fifty miles east of us, but 1366 01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:08,639 Speaker 1: what are we supposed to do about it? So they're 1367 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:12,240 Speaker 1: going out and drinking. So it's this very detached sense 1368 01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,320 Speaker 1: here and crack out. Not the same as it was 1369 01:13:14,360 --> 01:13:17,160 Speaker 1: in Freshmanville. Yeah, interesting to people are living their normal 1370 01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,120 Speaker 1: life and it's just it's a news item for them. 1371 01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:26,519 Speaker 1: It's they're not worried about any potentials spill over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, 1372 01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,599 Speaker 1: they're not worried. Nice and well you do you plan 1373 01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:33,040 Speaker 1: to stay there? What's what's next to you? So I 1374 01:13:33,040 --> 01:13:35,880 Speaker 1: actually just booked a flight uh an hour ago. I'm 1375 01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:39,800 Speaker 1: going to be flying back to the States on Marshall first. Okay, great, yeah, 1376 01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,280 Speaker 1: so you can you can come back, and presumably you're 1377 01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,960 Speaker 1: like your US passible holders, so you could just get 1378 01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:50,160 Speaker 1: that's how you got through being conscripted, etcetera. I am not. 1379 01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,240 Speaker 1: I'm not carrying US passport right now. I'm carrying an 1380 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,679 Speaker 1: Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen of Italy. 1381 01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,479 Speaker 1: And I was told before I left by some friends 1382 01:14:00,479 --> 01:14:03,200 Speaker 1: in the intelligence community that it would look significantly less 1383 01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:05,879 Speaker 1: suspicious to carry an U passport than the US passport. 1384 01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,360 Speaker 1: So I bought the EU passport. Nice. Yeah, and then 1385 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,960 Speaker 1: you can travel free lyre y, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do 1386 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:16,040 Speaker 1: you know if Yukrainian people can creble once? Because once 1387 01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:18,559 Speaker 1: they're in Poland, can they then move through the Shangan's 1388 01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,880 Speaker 1: own freely? Ukraine is not a member of the EU, 1389 01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:25,040 Speaker 1: they're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe 1390 01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,519 Speaker 1: they can move really, right, I just wondering, like, yeah, 1391 01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,040 Speaker 1: they would be. I don't know how their passports would 1392 01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:32,920 Speaker 1: be checked if they're going across some of those land 1393 01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:35,360 Speaker 1: borders that I think. I do know that this was 1394 01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,000 Speaker 1: it was an emergency situation yesterday and so that's why 1395 01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:41,280 Speaker 1: they were just very personally checked. But I'm sure it's 1396 01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,600 Speaker 1: director usually. Yeah, I wonder what they would be like 1397 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,880 Speaker 1: if they tried to exit Poland or if they'll right, 1398 01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:49,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen to them, No, 1399 01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:51,800 Speaker 1: I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of 1400 01:14:51,880 --> 01:14:54,200 Speaker 1: that that you've seen, either right, leg of what they 1401 01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:57,240 Speaker 1: should do or how to apply for asylum or anything 1402 01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,160 Speaker 1: like that. I have talked to a few people. They 1403 01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:04,800 Speaker 1: say that they're banking on those countries being empathetic to refugees, 1404 01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:07,080 Speaker 1: and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic 1405 01:15:07,080 --> 01:15:10,679 Speaker 1: to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will. 1406 01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,960 Speaker 1: So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones 1407 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,599 Speaker 1: who don't have a country to go to, you get 1408 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,120 Speaker 1: the senser, Yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum wherever 1409 01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:24,000 Speaker 1: they can find a safe place. That's right, um. And 1410 01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,760 Speaker 1: I believe that countries Western European countries that have been 1411 01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:30,120 Speaker 1: very vocally pro Ukraine recently, UM, will take them in. 1412 01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:33,160 Speaker 1: So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, that's 1413 01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,439 Speaker 1: good to hear. I know. I've seen estimates of up 1414 01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:42,080 Speaker 1: to five million refugees, which would be I mean, Germany 1415 01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:44,880 Speaker 1: absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not. Yeah, 1416 01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,360 Speaker 1: it's not impossible for Western European countries do that at all, 1417 01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:51,120 Speaker 1: but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis, 1418 01:15:51,160 --> 01:15:54,880 Speaker 1: the worse than magine. And yeah, I have to hope 1419 01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:56,519 Speaker 1: it doesn't get to that. Do you get the sense 1420 01:15:56,520 --> 01:15:59,040 Speaker 1: of people are still flowing across the border? I know 1421 01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,000 Speaker 1: you're a bit yes, you think for me, I mean 1422 01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,479 Speaker 1: it's weird because you want to believe that what you 1423 01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:08,200 Speaker 1: experienced and what the people around you've experienced was a 1424 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,360 Speaker 1: one time thing, that it was a one time incident, 1425 01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,600 Speaker 1: that it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly 1426 01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:17,680 Speaker 1: and it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah, 1427 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,280 Speaker 1: the trains and the across the border, things like that 1428 01:16:20,280 --> 01:16:23,240 Speaker 1: that people can take or is it solely yes? So 1429 01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:25,120 Speaker 1: when when I said that, I went to the train 1430 01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:27,599 Speaker 1: station and the leave and there were no trains, what 1431 01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,920 Speaker 1: was really happening is, yes there were trains, but all 1432 01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:34,479 Speaker 1: the trains until March March were booked, So okay, so yeah, 1433 01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,599 Speaker 1: people can't take their trains across that kind of thing. Uh, 1434 01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:40,760 Speaker 1: if they tried to book right now, they won't be 1435 01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:42,880 Speaker 1: able to find a booking for a while. Okay, so 1436 01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:45,800 Speaker 1: they were already booked up. And by the way, here 1437 01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:48,640 Speaker 1: in crack Out, Um, the first two hostels that I 1438 01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,880 Speaker 1: went to, the first two places to stay that I 1439 01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,040 Speaker 1: went to, we're all booked up. And I asked why 1440 01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,559 Speaker 1: and he said, Ukrainian refugees. So there are Ukrainian refugees 1441 01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,040 Speaker 1: here and crack Out Okay. Yeah, people are moving for it. 1442 01:16:58,120 --> 01:16:59,479 Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people want to get far 1443 01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,080 Speaker 1: aways hand. Yeah. So people are just constantly moving lest 1444 01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,400 Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, but they have friends of a family 1445 01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,280 Speaker 1: that they don't get to it because Yeah, and I've 1446 01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:11,040 Speaker 1: been hearing the Ukrainian language just constantly on my trip, 1447 01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:16,040 Speaker 1: so that's interesting too. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for that's a 1448 01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,320 Speaker 1: really really interesting inside. Is there anything else you think 1449 01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:25,120 Speaker 1: from your experience that people ought to hear about? Um? No, 1450 01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:27,320 Speaker 1: I believe I've told you everything. I've I've really told 1451 01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:31,000 Speaker 1: the story dozens of times since it happened, and UM, 1452 01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,120 Speaker 1: I really hope that I hit all the all the 1453 01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:37,320 Speaker 1: right notes here. UM, if you if you had to 1454 01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:39,679 Speaker 1: tell anything to the people who were reading or listening 1455 01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:44,240 Speaker 1: to this, Um, Ukraine really needs weapons, yes, but they 1456 01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,879 Speaker 1: also need humanitarian aid. When I was walking all that distance, 1457 01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:50,439 Speaker 1: with all those people, there was not a single sense 1458 01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:54,200 Speaker 1: of food being provided to anyone, water being provided to anyone. 1459 01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,000 Speaker 1: There was no chance to go to the toilet, there 1460 01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,559 Speaker 1: was often no chance to sit down. If we could 1461 01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,840 Speaker 1: give even a chance for these people to eat something, 1462 01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:07,000 Speaker 1: to drink something, to have a minute of solace, um, 1463 01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:08,800 Speaker 1: that would mean the world to them. And so I 1464 01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:11,000 Speaker 1: think that we need to provide humanitarian aid to the 1465 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:13,880 Speaker 1: refugees as soon as possible. And you you said you 1466 01:18:13,880 --> 01:18:16,800 Speaker 1: didn't see any organizations you'd suggest people donate to that 1467 01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,040 Speaker 1: you you didn't see any of that? Is there anyone 1468 01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:22,880 Speaker 1: you can know? And I don't know. I haven't actually 1469 01:18:22,960 --> 01:18:25,960 Speaker 1: done the research and that I probably should, um, but 1470 01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:29,880 Speaker 1: I I know that the Welcome Committee in Poland were 1471 01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:32,639 Speaker 1: private citizens. They were not part of any energy or anything. 1472 01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,840 Speaker 1: They were private citizens were welcoming awesome. Yeah, I've seen 1473 01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,200 Speaker 1: some of them organizing on Facebook. So try maybe linked 1474 01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:41,080 Speaker 1: to some of those or something like that that people 1475 01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:44,559 Speaker 1: going to support, right and all right? And then is 1476 01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:47,160 Speaker 1: there anything like you'd like to to plug like do 1477 01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:48,960 Speaker 1: you have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is there 1478 01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:52,439 Speaker 1: anything else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um? 1479 01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:54,439 Speaker 1: I mean? So the Twitter that I'm using for this, 1480 01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:56,720 Speaker 1: which you've probably seen as a temporary one. It was 1481 01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,400 Speaker 1: meant only to cover this crisis. I guess my private 1482 01:18:59,439 --> 01:19:03,320 Speaker 1: twitter uh plugged that, which has you've seen that as well? Probably, 1483 01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:07,040 Speaker 1: Um it's just my name. Um yeah, I guess just 1484 01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:10,880 Speaker 1: plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything, No, 1485 01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:15,720 Speaker 1: of course. Um it's a Mannie mutta with two teas, right, Yes, 1486 01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:18,200 Speaker 1: M A R O T T A great. Okay, we 1487 01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:20,720 Speaker 1: got that, and yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for 1488 01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:23,439 Speaker 1: taking the time to talk. I appreciate a pretty difficult 1489 01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:25,519 Speaker 1: couple of days to get some rest. And if there's 1490 01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:28,559 Speaker 1: anything else in any developments, please do let me know. 1491 01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,800 Speaker 1: Give me a shout tella. Thank you. All right, cheers, mate, 1492 01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:48,360 Speaker 1: you have a body of me. That's that's that's the thing. 1493 01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:50,800 Speaker 1: Just take photos of his children walking into the door 1494 01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,400 Speaker 1: of their public school. Yeah, send him to him with 1495 01:19:54,479 --> 01:20:03,360 Speaker 1: the pro pro protatto Hill account. Don't let him know 1496 01:20:03,400 --> 01:20:08,280 Speaker 1: what he did to provoke this. Just just frighten him. 1497 01:20:08,320 --> 01:20:11,559 Speaker 1: I do like it els is being recorded. Yeah, that's 1498 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:14,040 Speaker 1: that's how you do it. But the episode's begun. We're 1499 01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:17,200 Speaker 1: including all of that, Sofie, all of that welcome to 1500 01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:19,599 Speaker 1: it could happen here the podcast where we will take 1501 01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,759 Speaker 1: pictures of your children entering a public school and send 1502 01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:24,680 Speaker 1: them to you as a threat, but we won't tell 1503 01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:28,880 Speaker 1: you what you're we're threatening you over because that's I 1504 01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:33,759 Speaker 1: don't know what that is, probably terrorism technically speaking, speaking 1505 01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:42,439 Speaker 1: of child abuse. Great Garrison very proud nailed it. Yeah, yeah, 1506 01:20:42,520 --> 01:20:44,919 Speaker 1: So we're gonna be We're gonna we're doing an episode 1507 01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:49,400 Speaker 1: to talk about the recent kind of letter and opinion 1508 01:20:49,439 --> 01:20:52,679 Speaker 1: piece that the Governor of Texas and the Attorney general 1509 01:20:53,200 --> 01:20:57,280 Speaker 1: wrote relating to trans kids in Texas. We're we're also 1510 01:20:57,320 --> 01:20:59,880 Speaker 1: planning like like a more like a week long worth 1511 01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:02,439 Speaker 1: stuff kind of going into this issue across not not 1512 01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,920 Speaker 1: just the States, but also like like internationally as well 1513 01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:08,000 Speaker 1: in terms of like the growing kind of war on 1514 01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:11,720 Speaker 1: trans people. But because this thing happened, we we do 1515 01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:13,559 Speaker 1: want to kind of talk about it now as well 1516 01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:16,360 Speaker 1: before we you know, spend a lot of time making 1517 01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:19,799 Speaker 1: a week long is the worth of of of scripted 1518 01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:22,080 Speaker 1: pieces on it. So anyway, we're gonna be talking about 1519 01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:26,720 Speaker 1: what happened last last weekend or last week at time 1520 01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:30,400 Speaker 1: of recording, um when the Texas Attorney General kN Paxton 1521 01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:34,120 Speaker 1: released an opinion piece UM on I think it was 1522 01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,920 Speaker 1: it was Monday, they one declaring gender affirming medical care 1523 01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:42,200 Speaker 1: for transgender children to be a child abuse UM. In response, 1524 01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,960 Speaker 1: the next day, UH, the Governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, 1525 01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:50,080 Speaker 1: directed the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services UM 1526 01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:54,320 Speaker 1: to investigate these practices UM. And then kind of on 1527 01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:58,360 Speaker 1: that following Wednesday, the letter that Grey Gabbott wrote went viral, 1528 01:21:58,880 --> 01:22:02,760 Speaker 1: detailing both Attorney General's kind of opinion that a number 1529 01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:05,479 Speaker 1: of the so called quote sex change procedures constitute child 1530 01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:10,560 Speaker 1: abuse under existing Texas law UM and directing the Family 1531 01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:14,240 Speaker 1: and Protective Services to protect these to quote unquote protect 1532 01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:17,200 Speaker 1: these kids from abuse. And I hear by director agency 1533 01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:19,920 Speaker 1: to conduct a prompt in their own investigation to any 1534 01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:23,760 Speaker 1: reported instances of these abusive procedures. UM. And what's really 1535 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,760 Speaker 1: insidious is that like it's not even it's like, of course, 1536 01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:31,040 Speaker 1: like there is not gender affirming surgery done on minors anyway, 1537 01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:34,800 Speaker 1: that does not happen. UM. But the but this letter 1538 01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:39,720 Speaker 1: actually does UM go into UM says uh. It's it 1539 01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,719 Speaker 1: says uh. According according to the general Attorney General opinion, 1540 01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:44,840 Speaker 1: it has already against the law to subject Texas children 1541 01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:47,840 Speaker 1: to a wide variety of elective procedures for gender transitioning, 1542 01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:52,080 Speaker 1: including reassignment surgeries that can cause sterilization, removals of otherwise 1543 01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:56,000 Speaker 1: healthy body parts, and administration of puberty blocking drugs or 1544 01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,160 Speaker 1: doses of testosterone or estrogen. So it's not it is 1545 01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:03,120 Speaker 1: also including HRT, including puberty blockers, which again we already 1546 01:23:03,160 --> 01:23:06,920 Speaker 1: give to sis gender children all the time. UM. Puberty 1547 01:23:06,920 --> 01:23:09,200 Speaker 1: blockers are given to kids who have early onset pre 1548 01:23:09,240 --> 01:23:13,360 Speaker 1: perty who assists UM. But it's now including puberty blockers 1549 01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:16,719 Speaker 1: inside like constituting that in its in and of itself 1550 01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:20,040 Speaker 1: as child abuse, which is an escalation of things that 1551 01:23:20,080 --> 01:23:24,679 Speaker 1: we've seen before. UM. Yeah. And then it's also talking 1552 01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:28,400 Speaker 1: about how Texas law impostes reporting requirements upon all licensed 1553 01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:33,960 Speaker 1: professionals UM, including doctors and nurses, teachers, therapists, and provides 1554 01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, criminal penalties for failure to report things. So 1555 01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,360 Speaker 1: like it is that that was that was that was 1556 01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:41,680 Speaker 1: the That was the main part of the of the 1557 01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:46,000 Speaker 1: letter that went viral, detailing the different different ways that 1558 01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:50,960 Speaker 1: they're trying to harass, intimidate, and um introduce possible legal 1559 01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,519 Speaker 1: legal repercussions to parents and um, you know caregivers who 1560 01:23:55,560 --> 01:24:04,440 Speaker 1: support transgender youth inside the state of Texas. Oh yeah, 1561 01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:07,600 Speaker 1: um it is. It is like the perfect example of 1562 01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:10,519 Speaker 1: the thing these people always do when they make laws 1563 01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:14,760 Speaker 1: based on their bigotry, which is like reflexively make a 1564 01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,599 Speaker 1: law based on whatever is like the fucking Twitter talking 1565 01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:20,320 Speaker 1: point that they've been yelling about, and then don't consider 1566 01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:22,439 Speaker 1: all of the different things that it's going to do 1567 01:24:22,479 --> 01:24:24,120 Speaker 1: that have nothing to do with the group of people 1568 01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,600 Speaker 1: they're trying to hurt. And lots of cases, this is 1569 01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:29,920 Speaker 1: just gonna it's it's not even gonna it's it's gonna 1570 01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:32,120 Speaker 1: impact a lot of like queer people in general, right 1571 01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,680 Speaker 1: because it's it's in terms of like reporting things that 1572 01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:37,120 Speaker 1: seem outside the mainstream, so not even necessarily trans not 1573 01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:40,360 Speaker 1: even necessarily transgender people, not even necessarily queer people as well. 1574 01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:41,920 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of like you know, I I 1575 01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,000 Speaker 1: and if definitely when I was growing up, there's a 1576 01:24:44,040 --> 01:24:46,720 Speaker 1: lot of like cis girls who enjoyed dressing more like 1577 01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:50,160 Speaker 1: Butcher tomboy. Um, you know, there's a there's a and 1578 01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:52,240 Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of stuff that will just affect 1579 01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,920 Speaker 1: like kids in general. Um, with all of this reporting 1580 01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:59,720 Speaker 1: and all of this like and making making these like 1581 01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,799 Speaker 1: procedures and like hormone treatments like you know, to trying 1582 01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:06,519 Speaker 1: to make them seem like they're legal. Because that because again, 1583 01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:09,080 Speaker 1: like the actual Texas law has has not changed. It 1584 01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:11,920 Speaker 1: is it is the it is. This is an opinion 1585 01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:17,560 Speaker 1: piece investing directing the Child Protective Services to investigate these things. 1586 01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:19,439 Speaker 1: So the actual law in the book doesn't change. What 1587 01:25:19,479 --> 01:25:21,519 Speaker 1: it has done is caused a whole bunch of like 1588 01:25:21,640 --> 01:25:25,320 Speaker 1: a possible legal danger um and a massive headache and 1589 01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:27,960 Speaker 1: just a whole bunch of like legal harassment against parents 1590 01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:29,800 Speaker 1: and kids. And that that's what it's gonna that's what's 1591 01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,320 Speaker 1: gonna result in, because it's it's unclear what this what 1592 01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:34,640 Speaker 1: the governor's directive is going to actually practically look like, 1593 01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:38,360 Speaker 1: um because in the in the in a tweet on 1594 01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:41,679 Speaker 1: last Tuesday, he said that he's directing the Child Protective 1595 01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:44,800 Speaker 1: Services to enforce this ruling and investigate and refer for 1596 01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:49,599 Speaker 1: prosecution for instances of miners receiving affirming care UM. And 1597 01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,639 Speaker 1: then the Texas Protective Services told Time magazine on Wednesday 1598 01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:57,000 Speaker 1: that it was going to comply with the Governor's directive UM. 1599 01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,720 Speaker 1: But in terms of like directing them for prosecution, there 1600 01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:03,000 Speaker 1: has in like five Texas District Attorneys UM, including the 1601 01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:06,519 Speaker 1: d as of Dallas County and Houston's Travis County. They 1602 01:26:06,520 --> 01:26:10,040 Speaker 1: issued a statement to the day after condemning the Directive 1603 01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:13,440 Speaker 1: UM and saying that they plan to enforce the Constitution 1604 01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:15,760 Speaker 1: to their quote unquote that's what they said, and that 1605 01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:18,960 Speaker 1: they are quote deeply disturbed by Governor Abbots and Attorney 1606 01:26:18,960 --> 01:26:23,760 Speaker 1: General Paxton's cruel directives treating transgender children's access to life 1607 01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,840 Speaker 1: saving gender firm and care as child abuse. We will 1608 01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:30,599 Speaker 1: not irrationally and judifiably interfere with medical decisions made between children, 1609 01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,799 Speaker 1: their parents, and their medical physicians to ensure the safety 1610 01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:37,000 Speaker 1: of transgender youth, adding that we will not allow the 1611 01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:40,759 Speaker 1: governor or turn in general to disregard Texas children's lives 1612 01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:43,439 Speaker 1: in order to score political points. So in terms of 1613 01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, there's many certain parts of the certain parts 1614 01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:48,000 Speaker 1: of the state where even even if protective Services does 1615 01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:51,439 Speaker 1: investigate reports of this, they're not gonna get prosecuted. But 1616 01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:53,040 Speaker 1: there will be other parts of the state where these 1617 01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:56,080 Speaker 1: they probably will like and because it's because because it 1618 01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:58,679 Speaker 1: is just because it is just an interpretation of the law. 1619 01:26:59,240 --> 01:27:02,479 Speaker 1: You can still you can still get lots of legal trouble, 1620 01:27:02,760 --> 01:27:04,400 Speaker 1: and it's going to be up to juries and other 1621 01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:06,920 Speaker 1: people to decide on what interpretation of the law is 1622 01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:10,559 Speaker 1: going to be enforced and enacted upon. Um. So you're 1623 01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:12,120 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of people being like, oh, no, it's 1624 01:27:12,120 --> 01:27:14,400 Speaker 1: actually okay because the law is not changing, it's just 1625 01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,040 Speaker 1: the interpretation. And we're like, well, no, it actually is 1626 01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:19,439 Speaker 1: a big problem. Like it's like and it's not even 1627 01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:23,519 Speaker 1: it's just the overall like it's saying the things that 1628 01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:26,840 Speaker 1: have been gone unseid for a long time, like it 1629 01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:28,680 Speaker 1: it's it's it's making the things that everyone kind of 1630 01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:31,840 Speaker 1: assumed or was kind of the unseaid bigotry, putting it 1631 01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,920 Speaker 1: into writing and making it concrete. And it's like the 1632 01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:37,920 Speaker 1: overall escalation of this thing which is which is is 1633 01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:41,200 Speaker 1: deep deep, deeply concerning. I mean, it's it's the thing 1634 01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:45,320 Speaker 1: that happened with like COVID restrictions, with like masks and stuff, 1635 01:27:45,320 --> 01:27:48,559 Speaker 1: where you've got the cities and stuff where you have 1636 01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:50,920 Speaker 1: kind of more rational leadership or saying like we're not 1637 01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:53,639 Speaker 1: we're not paying attention to this directed from the governor, 1638 01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:55,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna keep having letting people mask or we're not 1639 01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:58,960 Speaker 1: going to let you, you know, go after businesses that 1640 01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:03,200 Speaker 1: require masks. But with the added dimension of like the 1641 01:28:04,640 --> 01:28:07,799 Speaker 1: rather than it being sort of targeting businesses and schools, 1642 01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:11,080 Speaker 1: it's it's targeting individuals, and it's allowing individuals to target 1643 01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,360 Speaker 1: other individuals, like the Texas abortion law exactly. And the 1644 01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:18,400 Speaker 1: primary purpose of this is going to be too basically 1645 01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:22,799 Speaker 1: gradually erode the areas in which which trans kids can 1646 01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,960 Speaker 1: can live in Texas. Like, yep, they'll be able to 1647 01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:28,080 Speaker 1: live in some of the cities for a while at least, 1648 01:28:28,439 --> 01:28:30,760 Speaker 1: well and even even in the cities. Right, it's like, yeah, okay, 1649 01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:33,120 Speaker 1: so maybe the the A doesn't prosecute, but that doesn't 1650 01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:36,000 Speaker 1: mean that CPS can't just can't investigate you, And like 1651 01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:39,599 Speaker 1: that's that's gonna be really traumatic, a lot of legal 1652 01:28:39,600 --> 01:28:44,599 Speaker 1: harassment because like DFPS cannot remove any child from their 1653 01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:47,519 Speaker 1: parents or guardians without a court order, and no court 1654 01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:50,920 Speaker 1: in Texas or anywhere in the country has yet found 1655 01:28:51,160 --> 01:28:54,320 Speaker 1: gender affirming care to be considered child abuse. So it 1656 01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:56,960 Speaker 1: has not happened yet, but they sure wanted to happen. 1657 01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,680 Speaker 1: And this is these are the next these are the 1658 01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:01,840 Speaker 1: next steps that can make it happen. Right, They are 1659 01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:05,760 Speaker 1: trying to get there um with this like incremental like 1660 01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:08,080 Speaker 1: these incremental things, you know, starting off with like legal 1661 01:29:08,080 --> 01:29:10,960 Speaker 1: interpretations and the law. Eventually they would want to change 1662 01:29:10,960 --> 01:29:13,680 Speaker 1: the law just to reflect this opinion, right, Like they 1663 01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:17,639 Speaker 1: want this to happen. They're just they're trying to slowly, slowly, 1664 01:29:17,800 --> 01:29:22,320 Speaker 1: slowly get at it um and it needs to be 1665 01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,559 Speaker 1: pushed back upon because yeah, any any slow incremental thing 1666 01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:27,360 Speaker 1: that they're going to try to do to make it 1667 01:29:27,400 --> 01:29:30,519 Speaker 1: basically be impossible to live as trans in Texas, the 1668 01:29:30,760 --> 01:29:32,680 Speaker 1: UH and lots of other states as well. It's not 1669 01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:34,759 Speaker 1: just it's not just Texas. There's things like this happening 1670 01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:38,600 Speaker 1: across all of the United States basically, especially especially you know, 1671 01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:44,719 Speaker 1: portion portions, portions of the South. Um. And it's yeah, 1672 01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:46,840 Speaker 1: it does play into this kind of overall in the 1673 01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:49,679 Speaker 1: past five years, you know, once they lost the gay 1674 01:29:49,720 --> 01:29:52,599 Speaker 1: marriage issue, they're like, Okay, the next line of defense 1675 01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:56,280 Speaker 1: for these people is making it be impossible to be trans. 1676 01:29:56,400 --> 01:29:58,200 Speaker 1: So it is that it's like the new that's the 1677 01:29:58,240 --> 01:30:00,559 Speaker 1: new thing they're gonna be really focusing on. And we've 1678 01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:04,040 Speaker 1: seen so many, so many new bills against against like 1679 01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:07,400 Speaker 1: being trans over the course of the past five years. Again, 1680 01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,400 Speaker 1: it's it is more so putting into writing the things 1681 01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:13,400 Speaker 1: that have been always kind of unconscious bigotry or even 1682 01:30:13,240 --> 01:30:16,680 Speaker 1: concis bigotry, but it's putting that into actual stone and 1683 01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:20,120 Speaker 1: making it like cemented. Um. You know, just at just 1684 01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:21,879 Speaker 1: at the start of this year, there was new restrictions 1685 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:25,280 Speaker 1: put in place pro tectas is transgender student athletes playing 1686 01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:29,200 Speaker 1: on K through twelve school sports teams UM that that 1687 01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:32,160 Speaker 1: went into effect on January eighteenth. It was it was 1688 01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:37,160 Speaker 1: a house built twenty five authored by Representative Valerie Swanson. 1689 01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:42,519 Speaker 1: UM requires student athletes to complete in interslastic competition to 1690 01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,920 Speaker 1: play on sports teams that correspond with the sex listed 1691 01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:47,479 Speaker 1: on their birth certificate at or near their time of birth, 1692 01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:50,960 Speaker 1: which means that the legislation went further than the previous 1693 01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:54,759 Speaker 1: rules from the University of Slastic League UM, which governs 1694 01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:58,320 Speaker 1: the school sports in Texas, in which the students gender 1695 01:30:58,360 --> 01:31:01,200 Speaker 1: is determined by their birth certificate. It but that that 1696 01:31:01,280 --> 01:31:03,960 Speaker 1: can also be legally modified, like you can change these 1697 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:06,719 Speaker 1: texts assigned at birth on on on your birth certificate. 1698 01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:09,400 Speaker 1: The new ruling is that it needs to be it 1699 01:31:09,400 --> 01:31:11,280 Speaker 1: needs to match the one that it was at or 1700 01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:13,559 Speaker 1: near your time of birth. So again, like they're finding 1701 01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:16,040 Speaker 1: all these little, these little small like things to like 1702 01:31:16,240 --> 01:31:21,760 Speaker 1: pry um that just makes things overall be harder to 1703 01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:23,920 Speaker 1: live in um. And at this point, like ten ten 1704 01:31:23,960 --> 01:31:26,439 Speaker 1: other states have put in very similar laws relating to 1705 01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:31,240 Speaker 1: like relating to to school sports and like bathroom bills, 1706 01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:36,160 Speaker 1: and yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's the it's the 1707 01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:38,760 Speaker 1: same thing that authoritarians always do, which is they're just 1708 01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:42,720 Speaker 1: kind of edging further and further and and continuing to 1709 01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,880 Speaker 1: proceed as they do not meet resistance, and the goal 1710 01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,280 Speaker 1: is to make it illegal and impossible to exist as 1711 01:31:49,280 --> 01:31:51,760 Speaker 1: a transgender person in society. You know. Part of what 1712 01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:54,439 Speaker 1: they're doing with it with the wording of how this 1713 01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:56,600 Speaker 1: change in Texas has been announced as they're trying to 1714 01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:01,160 Speaker 1: frame being trans is a contagion that threatens children. And 1715 01:32:01,439 --> 01:32:05,439 Speaker 1: step one of that under the is going proceeding under 1716 01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:07,680 Speaker 1: the ages if we are protecting children by making these 1717 01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of surgeries and stuff illegal. But the steps beyond 1718 01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:14,719 Speaker 1: that are eventually banning and restricting the ability of trans 1719 01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,280 Speaker 1: people to be around children and eventually be in civil 1720 01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:19,360 Speaker 1: society at all because they're a threat to children. That 1721 01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:23,320 Speaker 1: that that's the logical procession of the arguments that they're making. 1722 01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:28,560 Speaker 1: And I think they're proceeding in a fairly um um 1723 01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:32,200 Speaker 1: logical way in terms of achieving that as a goal, 1724 01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:36,280 Speaker 1: and they're not going to stop until they are stopped 1725 01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:41,599 Speaker 1: by probably force, if anything stops it. At this point, 1726 01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:44,240 Speaker 1: that's that's what it's going to have to be, because 1727 01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,599 Speaker 1: the local government has realized that that's how you get 1728 01:32:49,240 --> 01:32:52,280 Speaker 1: elected because you can't you can fix the power grid 1729 01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:54,639 Speaker 1: in Texas, you can't provide people with anything that makes 1730 01:32:54,680 --> 01:32:57,759 Speaker 1: their lives easier, but you can hurt trans people. UM. 1731 01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:01,720 Speaker 1: And Republicans are are are always down with that. It's 1732 01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:03,519 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's this thing fascists to where they 1733 01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:06,080 Speaker 1: introduce a false crisis. They introduce a false crisis that 1734 01:33:06,120 --> 01:33:10,520 Speaker 1: they can actually take steps to to, you know, um, 1735 01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:13,280 Speaker 1: make changes about. But all that ends up doing is 1736 01:33:13,320 --> 01:33:15,280 Speaker 1: hurting more of the population. It doesn't actually solve any 1737 01:33:15,280 --> 01:33:18,320 Speaker 1: issue that actually hurts people. UM. It's it's one of 1738 01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:20,639 Speaker 1: the core things in the fascist playbook. And I it's 1739 01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:23,000 Speaker 1: even in the States where there aren't just like blanket 1740 01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:26,639 Speaker 1: bands on kids being able to participate in sports teams. Um, 1741 01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:29,719 Speaker 1: there's other horrifying things happening. Um Like. In the beginning 1742 01:33:29,720 --> 01:33:34,040 Speaker 1: of February, it came out that the Utah Republicans propose 1743 01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:40,599 Speaker 1: as commission to analyze trans kids bodies. Um, you're talking aboulicans, 1744 01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,240 Speaker 1: the first of its kind anti transit sports bill that 1745 01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,800 Speaker 1: would form a commission to determine a student athletes eligibility 1746 01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:49,800 Speaker 1: on a case by case basis. The commission would have 1747 01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:53,200 Speaker 1: authority to establish a baseline range for various attributes including height, weight, 1748 01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:57,120 Speaker 1: body mass, wingspan, hiptoony ratio another physical characteristics affected by 1749 01:33:57,160 --> 01:34:00,720 Speaker 1: puberty bearing trans athletes um who do not fall within 1750 01:34:00,760 --> 01:34:04,840 Speaker 1: the established limits to from from participating engendered sports. Um. 1751 01:34:04,920 --> 01:34:08,439 Speaker 1: And yeah, asking like a government appointed panel to analyze 1752 01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:11,360 Speaker 1: the bodies of transminers. It does sound like a giant 1753 01:34:11,439 --> 01:34:14,000 Speaker 1: recipe for disaster. Um. And there is some even more 1754 01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:18,439 Speaker 1: like horrifying details. The bill would render the commission quote 1755 01:34:18,600 --> 01:34:22,320 Speaker 1: immune from suit like lawsuits with respect to all acts 1756 01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:25,400 Speaker 1: done and actions taken in good faith in carrying out 1757 01:34:25,439 --> 01:34:29,559 Speaker 1: their purposes. Uh. So, yeah, you can't sue anybody for 1758 01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:32,519 Speaker 1: what happens under the guise of this commission. So yeah, 1759 01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:36,720 Speaker 1: they're just gonna be investigating trans youth bodies and yep, 1760 01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:41,679 Speaker 1: you can't. There's no lawsuits allowed. Let's let's let's let's 1761 01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:44,800 Speaker 1: let's give the let's give the trans child abuse uh 1762 01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:51,519 Speaker 1: phrenology panel, just immunity from lawsuits, Like, yeah, qualified extend 1763 01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:56,799 Speaker 1: qualified immunity to citizens hurting the group of people that, uh, 1764 01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:01,000 Speaker 1: we don't think are human, Like, this isn't the only 1765 01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:03,640 Speaker 1: way place we're going to see that logic extended towards 1766 01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,000 Speaker 1: You're already seeing it in places like Louisiana with these 1767 01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:08,680 Speaker 1: bills to make it legal to kill protesters if you 1768 01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:13,720 Speaker 1: feel threatened. Um, like, it's it's the same playbook, and 1769 01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:16,160 Speaker 1: it's going to be the same playbook because there's no 1770 01:35:16,240 --> 01:35:19,800 Speaker 1: way to fight it without some sort of force. You 1771 01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:23,880 Speaker 1: can't vote these people away. The courts are packed for 1772 01:35:23,920 --> 01:35:28,400 Speaker 1: the time being. There's there's only there's not a solution 1773 01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:30,879 Speaker 1: that isn't some kind of force. Now we can discuss, 1774 01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:32,920 Speaker 1: is it like the force of of getting the Feds 1775 01:35:32,920 --> 01:35:35,880 Speaker 1: to intervene or whatever, But like, there's no there's no 1776 01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:40,320 Speaker 1: solution that is just like democratic, I mean, and like 1777 01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:46,000 Speaker 1: Biden's office made a statement on this recent Texas like 1778 01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:49,360 Speaker 1: a law opinion interpretation thing, and they're like, yeah, this 1779 01:35:49,439 --> 01:35:51,759 Speaker 1: seem was bad anyway, good luck? Could you like yeah, 1780 01:35:51,760 --> 01:35:55,920 Speaker 1: oh cool, Yeah, it's that that meme of like the 1781 01:35:55,960 --> 01:36:01,880 Speaker 1: person drowning with their hand out and they high five years. Yeah, 1782 01:36:01,960 --> 01:36:04,960 Speaker 1: that's what's happening. And I think the situation is like 1783 01:36:05,400 --> 01:36:07,160 Speaker 1: is it's worse than that too, because you know, in 1784 01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:09,439 Speaker 1: the past couple of weeks, what's something we started seeing 1785 01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:13,000 Speaker 1: as we started seeing democratic journals and democratic strategists openly 1786 01:36:13,040 --> 01:36:14,800 Speaker 1: talking about how we need to make assessions to the 1787 01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:16,519 Speaker 1: right and the culture wars Like okay, well what does 1788 01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:18,360 Speaker 1: that mean is like, yeah, throw pro trans concert to 1789 01:36:18,400 --> 01:36:22,679 Speaker 1: the bus right. Yeah, because they can't vote, they're already freaks, 1790 01:36:22,880 --> 01:36:25,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, they're the easiest person to pick away at 1791 01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:29,400 Speaker 1: the rights for UM And because overall, just in the 1792 01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:31,320 Speaker 1: past year alone, more than a hundred bills designed to 1793 01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:33,599 Speaker 1: restrict the rights of transgender people have been introduced at 1794 01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:37,120 Speaker 1: least three three states. Um, it's a it's a it's 1795 01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:40,519 Speaker 1: a record breaking year for anti trans legislation that's been 1796 01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,839 Speaker 1: that has been introduced. UM. In Arkansas, the state legislator 1797 01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:48,960 Speaker 1: recently banned gender affirming treatment for minors um, including hormotherapy 1798 01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:52,280 Speaker 1: like like puberty blockers and similar treatments. Again, this is 1799 01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:54,680 Speaker 1: the thing that like that could not happen for a 1800 01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:58,160 Speaker 1: long time anyway, just because like culturally and medically doctors 1801 01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:00,360 Speaker 1: would never do that. But now at the point where 1802 01:37:00,360 --> 01:37:02,800 Speaker 1: that started starting to change, it is this. It is 1803 01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:06,960 Speaker 1: this like a reactive, reactive effect that people are doing. 1804 01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:09,120 Speaker 1: And like now now that now that these cogs are turning, 1805 01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,759 Speaker 1: people are putting the massive brakes on it and putting 1806 01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,479 Speaker 1: the thing that used to be just unsaid now into 1807 01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:17,160 Speaker 1: actual legal writing. So now this actually is like just 1808 01:37:17,280 --> 01:37:19,960 Speaker 1: not allowed as opposed to it just not happening because 1809 01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:23,360 Speaker 1: doctors were assholes. So yeah, in Arkansas you can't even 1810 01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:27,000 Speaker 1: receive hormone treatment or beauty blockers. The bill was called 1811 01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:32,400 Speaker 1: the Save Adolescence from Experimentation Act. Yeah, so referring to 1812 01:37:32,439 --> 01:37:36,479 Speaker 1: medical treatment of one of affirming one's gender identity as experimentation, um, 1813 01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:39,439 Speaker 1: which is not great. I mean that is that is 1814 01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:41,559 Speaker 1: how I view it for myself because I like being 1815 01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:44,559 Speaker 1: a freak. But as an overall trend, that is that 1816 01:37:44,680 --> 01:37:47,200 Speaker 1: is horrible, Like that is a horrible way to to phrase, 1817 01:37:47,240 --> 01:37:49,920 Speaker 1: this type of thing for a lot of people, especially 1818 01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:53,800 Speaker 1: the people who who know specifically what gender they want 1819 01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:56,360 Speaker 1: to be and and are like that is that affects 1820 01:37:56,360 --> 01:37:59,479 Speaker 1: them so differently. I mean, I'm I'm lucky enough just 1821 01:37:59,560 --> 01:38:04,240 Speaker 1: to be more are gender queer ish um And but yeah, 1822 01:38:04,240 --> 01:38:06,679 Speaker 1: it's all of these bills are gonna affect so many 1823 01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,320 Speaker 1: people in different ways, and it's it's real bad. Like 1824 01:38:11,800 --> 01:38:15,680 Speaker 1: shortly after the Arkansas bill prohibiting transforming medical practices was 1825 01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:19,240 Speaker 1: signed into law last April, reports of suicide attempts among 1826 01:38:19,280 --> 01:38:24,280 Speaker 1: trans youth in the state. Uh, we're going up. Um. 1827 01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:28,880 Speaker 1: And the doctor Michelle Hutchinson, who runs the largest provider 1828 01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:31,599 Speaker 1: of Homer therapy in the state, called the ap that 1829 01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:34,639 Speaker 1: just just into her office alone during April she saw 1830 01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:38,280 Speaker 1: an uptick in suicide attempts from from from trans youth 1831 01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:41,840 Speaker 1: and this is this is it's gonna keep happening, and 1832 01:38:41,880 --> 01:38:44,360 Speaker 1: like there is you can't trust a lot to stop it. 1833 01:38:44,439 --> 01:38:49,280 Speaker 1: Like the Arkansas Governor um uh Asa Hutchinson, a Republican, 1834 01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:53,280 Speaker 1: did veto this bill, citing potentially dangerous consequences for trans 1835 01:38:53,320 --> 01:38:55,479 Speaker 1: youth and telling it that telling reporters that it was 1836 01:38:55,520 --> 01:38:58,920 Speaker 1: a vast government overreach and a byproduct of the culture 1837 01:38:58,920 --> 01:39:01,720 Speaker 1: war in America, and her veto was vetoed by the 1838 01:39:01,720 --> 01:39:03,920 Speaker 1: state legislator, so like it's going to be a looping, 1839 01:39:04,080 --> 01:39:08,400 Speaker 1: endless problem of legal issues. So it's there's there's needs 1840 01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,760 Speaker 1: to be other things. Like I've been on Twitter the 1841 01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:12,759 Speaker 1: past week just watch looking at all the go fund 1842 01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:16,320 Speaker 1: means by parents of trends kids in Texas who are 1843 01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:19,200 Speaker 1: trying to move out of state so that their kid 1844 01:39:19,280 --> 01:39:22,240 Speaker 1: can receive like hormone treatment and just like be allowed 1845 01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:26,040 Speaker 1: to be a person without being harassed by protective services 1846 01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:29,719 Speaker 1: and teachers and the school system. And it's it's it's 1847 01:39:29,760 --> 01:39:33,080 Speaker 1: it's horrifying, like watching all these people like asking for 1848 01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:34,960 Speaker 1: help so they can move out of state so that 1849 01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:38,840 Speaker 1: they can let their kid be just a kid. Um, 1850 01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:42,920 Speaker 1: And it's it is, it is really rough, um. And 1851 01:39:43,000 --> 01:39:44,720 Speaker 1: a big part of why, part of why it's so 1852 01:39:44,760 --> 01:39:47,920 Speaker 1: horrifying is that like, obviously, if you're in that situation, 1853 01:39:48,040 --> 01:39:50,639 Speaker 1: you can get your kid out there, of course, but 1854 01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:54,320 Speaker 1: it also means the more people who move out of 1855 01:39:54,360 --> 01:39:57,240 Speaker 1: places like that, the less resources there will be in 1856 01:39:57,280 --> 01:39:59,800 Speaker 1: the future for kids whose parents can't get them out, 1857 01:40:00,040 --> 01:40:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, support there will be the less and like 1858 01:40:02,960 --> 01:40:05,640 Speaker 1: there is just there is no real escape from it, 1859 01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:08,800 Speaker 1: like you cannot get fully away. It is that you 1860 01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:13,240 Speaker 1: cannot ever fully escape that type of fascist um thought 1861 01:40:13,439 --> 01:40:17,400 Speaker 1: and creep within the state legislator and specifically around you 1862 01:40:17,400 --> 01:40:23,240 Speaker 1: know how it's going to affect different different classes of minorities. UM, 1863 01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:25,000 Speaker 1: I will direct people if you want to kind of 1864 01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:27,760 Speaker 1: learn more about this sort of thing and if you 1865 01:40:27,760 --> 01:40:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, can you can find some some stuff around that. 1866 01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:34,559 Speaker 1: There's an organization Texas called TENT which is the UH. 1867 01:40:34,600 --> 01:40:36,120 Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I say it right. 1868 01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:40,759 Speaker 1: Oh no, it's it's the Texas Educational Network, the trans 1869 01:40:40,960 --> 01:40:44,160 Speaker 1: Educational Network of Texas. UM. It's one one of those, 1870 01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:45,720 Speaker 1: but it is. It is a. It is a It 1871 01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:48,360 Speaker 1: has a whole bunch of like mental health resources, guides 1872 01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:51,439 Speaker 1: for trans youth in Texas for how to make things 1873 01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:54,640 Speaker 1: slightly less shitty. Um and yeah, they do, they do 1874 01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:57,439 Speaker 1: some advocacy work in Texas. There's also a Quality Texas 1875 01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:02,040 Speaker 1: which is another organization that does that does assistance for 1876 01:41:02,360 --> 01:41:05,680 Speaker 1: trance under people look in schools, um and just you know, 1877 01:41:05,840 --> 01:41:10,840 Speaker 1: try again trying to make life slightly less, slightly less shitty. UM. Yeah, 1878 01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:13,960 Speaker 1: I kind of the last the last thing I wrote 1879 01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:17,280 Speaker 1: is the is just fix your hearts or die, which 1880 01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:21,360 Speaker 1: is the kind of overall overall message that you can 1881 01:41:21,439 --> 01:41:23,559 Speaker 1: really only give to people who want to do this 1882 01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:26,400 Speaker 1: type of thing, is that, yeah, there's really no arguing 1883 01:41:26,439 --> 01:41:29,640 Speaker 1: with them. Um, you have to either they need to 1884 01:41:29,680 --> 01:41:33,360 Speaker 1: fix their hearts or not be around anymore. Like they're 1885 01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:35,880 Speaker 1: they're just like whether that be like just secluded to 1886 01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:39,240 Speaker 1: your part of society, but it's like it it needs 1887 01:41:39,280 --> 01:41:41,800 Speaker 1: to be actually like resisted upon because these people are 1888 01:41:41,800 --> 01:41:44,000 Speaker 1: never going to back down on their own. The other 1889 01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,920 Speaker 1: part of the problem here again is just with how 1890 01:41:48,439 --> 01:41:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, like this this is sort of kind of 1891 01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:53,599 Speaker 1: this is an inherent problem that you have with democracies, right, 1892 01:41:53,680 --> 01:41:55,880 Speaker 1: with with democracies and in civil rights words, Yeah, you 1893 01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,840 Speaker 1: have a group people who aren't extremely well minority, and 1894 01:41:59,280 --> 01:42:01,599 Speaker 1: you know, and you and and and this gets compounded 1895 01:42:01,600 --> 01:42:03,880 Speaker 1: by the fact that you're dealing with extremely small minority 1896 01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:08,639 Speaker 1: of people and you know, you're already dealing with like 1897 01:42:08,680 --> 01:42:11,120 Speaker 1: the you know, the thing that is called democracy, right 1898 01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:13,320 Speaker 1: is only participated in by an extremely small number of people, 1899 01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:16,200 Speaker 1: especially when you get you know, especially when you get 1900 01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:18,680 Speaker 1: down to the state level. Of the local level, right, 1901 01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:20,640 Speaker 1: like very few people are actually voting in these things. 1902 01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:22,679 Speaker 1: That people who are voting in these things like want 1903 01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:26,639 Speaker 1: trans people to die. And so you know, you you 1904 01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:28,759 Speaker 1: you you need, you need some kind of other solution 1905 01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:33,479 Speaker 1: to actually secure to secure civil rights, because there's just 1906 01:42:33,520 --> 01:42:35,720 Speaker 1: there's there literally are not enough trans people and there 1907 01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:38,320 Speaker 1: are not enough people who support them and care enough 1908 01:42:38,360 --> 01:42:40,600 Speaker 1: to do it and also are in these areas to 1909 01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:45,000 Speaker 1: prevent this through just the normal like vote blue. I mean, 1910 01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:47,280 Speaker 1: like I keep seeing this with with Texas. Everyone keeps 1911 01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:48,800 Speaker 1: saying it's like, wow, Okay, we just gotta vote blue. 1912 01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:51,320 Speaker 1: And it's like people have been like people have been 1913 01:42:51,360 --> 01:42:53,760 Speaker 1: saying this about stuff in Texas for as long as 1914 01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:57,360 Speaker 1: I've been alive. It has never happened. Ever, like it 1915 01:42:57,400 --> 01:42:59,880 Speaker 1: hasn't my entire life. They keep saying, is it keeps 1916 01:42:59,880 --> 01:43:03,920 Speaker 1: not happening and kids keep dying, and yeah, there has 1917 01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:09,120 Speaker 1: there has to be something else, because yeah, Texas, Texas 1918 01:43:09,200 --> 01:43:13,479 Speaker 1: has been labor laboriously constructed as a political entity to 1919 01:43:13,640 --> 01:43:17,160 Speaker 1: sty me all of your liberal dreams of of uh 1920 01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:21,680 Speaker 1: it going purple um and and it will continue to 1921 01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:24,720 Speaker 1: be for the foreseeable future. Like you cannot this is 1922 01:43:24,720 --> 01:43:31,080 Speaker 1: not a voting issue. This is a I mean, like 1923 01:43:31,120 --> 01:43:33,320 Speaker 1: I said, some kind of force is going to have 1924 01:43:33,400 --> 01:43:35,760 Speaker 1: to be used to oppose these people. They're not they're 1925 01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:38,200 Speaker 1: not there. They wouldn't listen if you voted them out, 1926 01:43:38,520 --> 01:43:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, and like and they do for like they 1927 01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:44,160 Speaker 1: themselves do for is you look at all the stuff, Yeah, 1928 01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:46,479 Speaker 1: and and and even like regular people like this whole 1929 01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:49,360 Speaker 1: thing of like, yes, you should like report your neighbors 1930 01:43:49,360 --> 01:43:51,160 Speaker 1: that you see if you if you see a kid 1931 01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:55,800 Speaker 1: who doesn't look like a regular normal borings this child that, yeah, 1932 01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,200 Speaker 1: you should report them. But you should go harass everyone 1933 01:43:58,200 --> 01:44:00,200 Speaker 1: who works in your school board so that they ban 1934 01:44:00,320 --> 01:44:03,760 Speaker 1: all books referencing anything related to being queer. It's like 1935 01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:09,160 Speaker 1: they do take steps to actually hurt other individuals. Um 1936 01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:12,439 Speaker 1: and they they can do it through these means that 1937 01:44:12,520 --> 01:44:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, they don't necessarily have to always punch you 1938 01:44:15,439 --> 01:44:18,040 Speaker 1: in the face, but they can sure direct the state 1939 01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:22,120 Speaker 1: to send agents to your house to to like to intimidate, 1940 01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:24,839 Speaker 1: harass you and threaten to threaten to take away your children. 1941 01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:27,839 Speaker 1: Um Or they can you know, if you're a therapist 1942 01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:30,040 Speaker 1: or a teacher, you can be fired or put in 1943 01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:34,240 Speaker 1: jail for failing to report, you know, kids who don't 1944 01:44:35,040 --> 01:44:40,800 Speaker 1: subscribe to their Christian supremacist ideas of like traditional general rules. Um, 1945 01:44:40,880 --> 01:44:42,880 Speaker 1: because again it's it's it's not even all it's like, 1946 01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:46,360 Speaker 1: again there's not tons of trans people in general. Usually 1947 01:44:46,479 --> 01:44:48,559 Speaker 1: it's like, this is just gonna affect a lot of 1948 01:44:48,560 --> 01:44:52,040 Speaker 1: CIS kids as well, who maybe don't want to who don't, 1949 01:44:52,120 --> 01:44:54,759 Speaker 1: who don't, who don't, who who just want to dress cool. 1950 01:44:55,080 --> 01:44:57,320 Speaker 1: Like it's like it's it's, it's it doesn't even just 1951 01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:01,479 Speaker 1: it is is it does affect everybody. Um, So it 1952 01:45:01,640 --> 01:45:04,240 Speaker 1: is it's a it's a it's a it's a horrible 1953 01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,679 Speaker 1: it's a horrible thing that is not even like there's 1954 01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:08,840 Speaker 1: no escape from it, and it will affect you, whether 1955 01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:11,760 Speaker 1: or not your trends or not. And I think it's 1956 01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:14,320 Speaker 1: important also to talk about the mandatory reporting stuff because 1957 01:45:15,320 --> 01:45:18,599 Speaker 1: even with managery reporting in general, like even like I've 1958 01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:21,200 Speaker 1: I've had things where I was in a school and 1959 01:45:21,240 --> 01:45:23,200 Speaker 1: my school essentially turned into a police state because there 1960 01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:25,439 Speaker 1: are people who I couldn't talk to about things because 1961 01:45:25,479 --> 01:45:27,519 Speaker 1: of things that happened to me that if if if 1962 01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:29,880 Speaker 1: if any of them heard it, and one time someone 1963 01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:32,000 Speaker 1: did and had to literally beg them, like on my knees, 1964 01:45:32,040 --> 01:45:34,240 Speaker 1: not to report me, right, not not to report the 1965 01:45:34,240 --> 01:45:36,519 Speaker 1: thing that happened to me, because if you know, because 1966 01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:38,880 Speaker 1: because if if if that had been heard, like and 1967 01:45:38,920 --> 01:45:41,120 Speaker 1: if that had actually been reported, it would have you know, 1968 01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:42,760 Speaker 1: it would have started a enormous process and I would 1969 01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:46,880 Speaker 1: have had to you know, like the I I would 1970 01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:48,960 Speaker 1: have had to you know, deal with this like this 1971 01:45:49,000 --> 01:45:54,080 Speaker 1: is an institutionalized thing, and that like the absolute terror 1972 01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:59,640 Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff creates where you have to 1973 01:46:00,439 --> 01:46:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, you have to watch every single word that 1974 01:46:02,400 --> 01:46:04,479 Speaker 1: you say around all of the adults in your life 1975 01:46:04,520 --> 01:46:07,599 Speaker 1: because if you don't do it, they are going to 1976 01:46:07,600 --> 01:46:10,920 Speaker 1: report you. It is like the level of psychological terror 1977 01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:14,280 Speaker 1: you are inflicting on people is horrific. And then that 1978 01:46:14,400 --> 01:46:17,720 Speaker 1: in and of itself just is a cost like and 1979 01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:20,600 Speaker 1: and it is something that is going to contribute to 1980 01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:24,639 Speaker 1: trans kids killing themselves. And it's it's just that simple. 1981 01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:27,080 Speaker 1: In that place, it is such a life and death issue, 1982 01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:30,360 Speaker 1: so you have to really be forced to go. Yeah, 1983 01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:34,559 Speaker 1: it goes into like it's very like ontological issue as well, um, 1984 01:46:34,760 --> 01:46:37,120 Speaker 1: and it deals with so many things around the nature 1985 01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:39,599 Speaker 1: of like being and what you're allowed to be inside 1986 01:46:40,040 --> 01:46:44,160 Speaker 1: as this societal construct. Um, and they're just trying to 1987 01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:47,559 Speaker 1: make that impossible for so many people and make everything 1988 01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:51,960 Speaker 1: so limited in their very narrow version of what they 1989 01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:55,680 Speaker 1: want the world to be that makes them feel comfortable. Yeah. 1990 01:46:55,760 --> 01:46:57,800 Speaker 1: And then and you know, because because it's not it's 1991 01:46:57,800 --> 01:46:59,320 Speaker 1: not what the world is, they have to use violence 1992 01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:03,559 Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah. So because it's stuck, because that 1993 01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:05,719 Speaker 1: is the rule that that is, that is the rules 1994 01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:08,760 Speaker 1: that we're playing by. That is the game we're playing. Yeah, my, my, 1995 01:47:08,880 --> 01:47:13,320 Speaker 1: only the the the default response to be for those 1996 01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,000 Speaker 1: people is yeah, they need to they need to fix 1997 01:47:16,000 --> 01:47:18,120 Speaker 1: their hearts or die and just get out of the way. 1998 01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:22,040 Speaker 1: And because it's that's they already have that for us, 1999 01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:24,120 Speaker 1: except they don't want us to fix their hearts. They 2000 01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:26,679 Speaker 1: just want us to die. So like we are way 2001 01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:30,080 Speaker 1: more empathetic than they are, um, because they can just 2002 01:47:30,120 --> 01:47:32,680 Speaker 1: not be transphobic. They cannot, they can they can just 2003 01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:35,400 Speaker 1: not do these things. Um. But if they're gonna keep 2004 01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:39,160 Speaker 1: doubling down, then yeah, well that's if if you want 2005 01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:41,639 Speaker 1: to play by their rules, then we need to start 2006 01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:43,519 Speaker 1: playing by their rules because they're not going to have 2007 01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:46,320 Speaker 1: if they're not going to change the rules. Then that 2008 01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:48,000 Speaker 1: is the that is the game that they want us 2009 01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:54,080 Speaker 1: to do. Um And again like actual like I want 2010 01:47:54,080 --> 01:47:55,800 Speaker 1: to I always I always every episoce like this, I 2011 01:47:55,840 --> 01:47:57,600 Speaker 1: always want to kind of end with like here are 2012 01:47:57,640 --> 01:48:00,000 Speaker 1: some steps that you can like take that are relatively easy. 2013 01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:02,920 Speaker 1: Seen it's it's it's challenging for these types of some 2014 01:48:03,000 --> 01:48:05,639 Speaker 1: sorts of things like like there yes, there is things 2015 01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:08,120 Speaker 1: you can do around you know, getting like making sure 2016 01:48:08,160 --> 01:48:11,240 Speaker 1: you're aware of what bills are being talked about in 2017 01:48:11,320 --> 01:48:15,120 Speaker 1: your local like your local area, contacting representatives to to 2018 01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:18,320 Speaker 1: do stuff, going to going to you know, either whether 2019 01:48:18,320 --> 01:48:20,760 Speaker 1: their school board meetings or stuff. But like a lot 2020 01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:24,040 Speaker 1: of the electoralist type of ideas around this feels always 2021 01:48:24,120 --> 01:48:27,160 Speaker 1: so inadequate, um and it feels always so fake. Um 2022 01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:30,720 Speaker 1: that you know, it's it's it is so much it 2023 01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:32,680 Speaker 1: feels a lot easier to that to like, you know, 2024 01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:35,760 Speaker 1: figure out different ways to actually help actual trans people 2025 01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,960 Speaker 1: in your area, um and give trans people money um 2026 01:48:39,120 --> 01:48:42,040 Speaker 1: and like because like that is often can be actually 2027 01:48:42,080 --> 01:48:45,080 Speaker 1: have a way more positive effects at least effects that 2028 01:48:45,120 --> 01:48:47,639 Speaker 1: are like observable. But like, but there are also ways 2029 01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:49,560 Speaker 1: to stop this type of legislation, Like there is that 2030 01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:51,400 Speaker 1: there is there, there is ways to do that, and 2031 01:48:52,360 --> 01:48:54,080 Speaker 1: I will I'll try to get into more of that 2032 01:48:54,160 --> 01:48:56,200 Speaker 1: kind of stuff as well once we get you know, 2033 01:48:56,439 --> 01:48:59,519 Speaker 1: our our week long of stuff about the war on 2034 01:48:59,560 --> 01:49:02,880 Speaker 1: transpol Um that will be upcoming probably sometime in this 2035 01:49:03,080 --> 01:49:10,919 Speaker 1: in this next month. Yeah. Um. Remember, folks, if anybody 2036 01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:14,800 Speaker 1: ever suggests doing something for children that isn't providing them 2037 01:49:14,840 --> 01:49:17,599 Speaker 1: with food or shelter, you should probably hit that person 2038 01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:20,320 Speaker 1: because they're probably trying to fund something up for somebody. 2039 01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:27,640 Speaker 1: It's nearly always. Don't trust anyone who says there we 2040 01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:30,479 Speaker 1: need to do something to protect children that they're lying 2041 01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:34,320 Speaker 1: to you. As a rule, they're lying to you. Um 2042 01:49:41,479 --> 01:49:48,000 Speaker 1: anyway you guys, Um, how's the boy that's Star Wars? 2043 01:49:49,200 --> 01:49:52,439 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I love there's the There's the there's the 2044 01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:55,160 Speaker 1: the Obi WANs coming out. That'll be good. I am 2045 01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:59,280 Speaker 1: excited for the Obi WANs because it Speaking of speaking 2046 01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:02,320 Speaker 1: speaking of you and McGregor, a few months ago, I 2047 01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:05,959 Speaker 1: saw the film Velvet gold Mine starring you and McGregor, 2048 01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:09,960 Speaker 1: which is a wonderful like pseudo fictional film but about 2049 01:50:10,120 --> 01:50:14,920 Speaker 1: kind of the glam Rock era inside Britain's very very gay, 2050 01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:17,280 Speaker 1: very a whole bunch of a whole bunch of very 2051 01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:20,400 Speaker 1: good twink action. And there was one scene where, um, 2052 01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:24,759 Speaker 1: you McGregor's character, he's he's like, he's kind of based 2053 01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:28,000 Speaker 1: off one of the one of those types of music. People. 2054 01:50:28,080 --> 01:50:33,320 Speaker 1: I forget, I forget which one it is. Um, I think, people, 2055 01:50:34,320 --> 01:50:36,000 Speaker 1: I think, I think, I think. I think he's playing 2056 01:50:36,160 --> 01:50:38,040 Speaker 1: like a kind of a version of that. But there's 2057 01:50:38,080 --> 01:50:40,080 Speaker 1: one scene where he's doing a performance where he takes 2058 01:50:40,080 --> 01:50:41,559 Speaker 1: all of his clothes off on stage and you get 2059 01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:46,240 Speaker 1: to see you and McGregor's dick. Um, and yeah, you do. 2060 01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:49,680 Speaker 1: So if if people, if people want to see a 2061 01:50:49,840 --> 01:50:53,400 Speaker 1: kind of David Bowie esque film starring you and McGregor, 2062 01:50:53,479 --> 01:50:55,880 Speaker 1: it has. It has like a weird gay email, Christian 2063 01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:58,479 Speaker 1: bale as as a twink, and a whole bunch of 2064 01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:02,400 Speaker 1: other really really solved stuff. I would recommend watching Vella 2065 01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:05,720 Speaker 1: Guild Mine. It has, it has a lot of great stuff. Um, 2066 01:51:05,880 --> 01:51:07,960 Speaker 1: and you do very early in the film get to 2067 01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:11,400 Speaker 1: see you and McGregor's penis just flapping around on stage, 2068 01:51:11,560 --> 01:51:15,840 Speaker 1: and it is. It's pretty good. It's speaking of movies 2069 01:51:15,880 --> 01:51:18,080 Speaker 1: where you see a famous person's dick, if you want 2070 01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:21,639 Speaker 1: to see another famous Penis. The movie Galaxy Quest contains 2071 01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:24,479 Speaker 1: several shots of Tim Allen dong. I don't want to 2072 01:51:24,479 --> 01:51:28,040 Speaker 1: see Tim Allen's hanging wang. As someone who's seen both 2073 01:51:28,080 --> 01:51:30,840 Speaker 1: Galaxy Quest and Vellla gould Mine and who appreciates both films, 2074 01:51:30,920 --> 01:51:36,000 Speaker 1: Dearly You and You and McGregor is miles hotter than 2075 01:51:36,320 --> 01:51:40,799 Speaker 1: Tim Allen's dong. Shot is not hot. It's not pleasing. 2076 01:51:40,840 --> 01:51:42,840 Speaker 1: It is not supposed to be. He has hungover in 2077 01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:47,920 Speaker 1: his like bathrobe leaning over. But if you want, if 2078 01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:49,840 Speaker 1: you if you want to see if Rain or Fastbenders, 2079 01:51:49,880 --> 01:51:53,120 Speaker 1: Dick Germany and Autumn, Okay, that that's w I could, 2080 01:51:53,120 --> 01:51:57,120 Speaker 1: I could, I could do that very weird movie. However, alright, alright, 2081 01:51:57,200 --> 01:51:59,639 Speaker 1: if you were in terms of in terms of actionable 2082 01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:02,479 Speaker 1: things make you feel better, everyone go watch fell a 2083 01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:04,240 Speaker 1: gold Mine because it has some day It has some 2084 01:52:04,360 --> 01:52:08,240 Speaker 1: very good gender play, has wonderful yeah, wonderful off around gender, 2085 01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:11,240 Speaker 1: wonderfu stuff around gayness, and yeah film from like the 2086 01:52:11,400 --> 01:52:13,760 Speaker 1: nineties where there was like lots of gay fucking and 2087 01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:16,040 Speaker 1: you're like, wow, how is this filmmate in the nineties, 2088 01:52:16,840 --> 01:52:18,920 Speaker 1: Because it is a whole bunch of like big name 2089 01:52:18,960 --> 01:52:21,880 Speaker 1: actors now who were like unknown at the time, all 2090 01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:24,240 Speaker 1: being gay and sucking each other and you're like, holy 2091 01:52:24,320 --> 01:52:29,400 Speaker 1: sh it. Alright, so yo, that is the uh, that's 2092 01:52:29,600 --> 01:52:32,920 Speaker 1: what we got that. There's your action items. Action items. 2093 01:52:33,200 --> 01:52:36,280 Speaker 1: Go watch, Go watch Velvet gold Mine. Make everyone you 2094 01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:38,439 Speaker 1: know watch Velvet gold Mine and I'll thank you. Feel 2095 01:52:38,479 --> 01:52:41,760 Speaker 1: good about gender. Take screen grabs of Ellan McGregor's dick, 2096 01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:45,160 Speaker 1: make Berner Twitter accounts and just start posting. Just just 2097 01:52:45,439 --> 01:52:47,479 Speaker 1: get it out there, get it out there. The world 2098 01:52:47,560 --> 01:52:49,920 Speaker 1: needs to know. Throw some of Tim Allen's dick out 2099 01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:52,320 Speaker 1: there too. Don't be don't be choosy. Stick it all 2100 01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:56,080 Speaker 1: all the dicks, all right, that's gonna be the day. 2101 01:52:56,200 --> 01:53:11,840 Speaker 1: That's that's the show. Yeah, welcome to it could happen 2102 01:53:11,960 --> 01:53:16,120 Speaker 1: here a podcast that is uh you know this this this, 2103 01:53:16,240 --> 01:53:18,560 Speaker 1: This is the podcast about the world falling apart. The 2104 01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:22,320 Speaker 1: world is in fact falling apart extremely quickly right now. 2105 01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:26,200 Speaker 1: And I'm I'm your host, Christopher, and I am here 2106 01:53:26,240 --> 01:53:28,720 Speaker 1: today to talk about an immense occupying army with an 2107 01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:31,799 Speaker 1: extensive record of torture and extradicial killings. I am referring, 2108 01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:35,960 Speaker 1: of course, to the Chicago Police Department and with with 2109 01:53:36,120 --> 01:53:40,400 Speaker 1: me to talk about yet more just absolute horrors that 2110 01:53:40,720 --> 01:53:45,240 Speaker 1: this department has committed here and worldwide. I have Raven, 2111 01:53:45,280 --> 01:53:48,280 Speaker 1: who is a journalist of Chicago Free Media. Raven, welcome 2112 01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,240 Speaker 1: to the show and thank you for joining us. Hi, 2113 01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:55,000 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Yeah, how how how have 2114 01:53:55,080 --> 01:53:59,559 Speaker 1: you been holding up in these uh oh boy things 2115 01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:03,760 Speaker 1: are go and bad? Yeah, you know we uh we 2116 01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:07,479 Speaker 1: have discussed doing this interview earlier this week. And I 2117 01:54:07,520 --> 01:54:11,840 Speaker 1: don't think either of us expected uh Russia to invade 2118 01:54:11,920 --> 01:54:17,519 Speaker 1: Ukraine last night. Yea was yeah and that wasn't even 2119 01:54:17,600 --> 01:54:20,120 Speaker 1: the yeah, it was the convoys about you know, this 2120 01:54:20,160 --> 01:54:24,160 Speaker 1: is this is a this is a time of chaos 2121 01:54:24,280 --> 01:54:29,400 Speaker 1: and death. Um. But I think it's important to understand 2122 01:54:29,520 --> 01:54:31,720 Speaker 1: that he has always has always been a time of 2123 01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:36,880 Speaker 1: chaos and death and yeah, and I think especially where 2124 01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:40,120 Speaker 1: the Chicago Police Department is concerned. Um, we've talked about 2125 01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:44,520 Speaker 1: we've we've talked about some of their more famous crimes 2126 01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:47,320 Speaker 1: on the show. But I wanted to have ravenon to 2127 01:54:47,360 --> 01:54:50,760 Speaker 1: talk about a police killing that I don't think got 2128 01:54:51,000 --> 01:54:53,480 Speaker 1: that much attention. I mean not even he gus I 2129 01:54:53,560 --> 01:54:56,280 Speaker 1: got a lot of in Chicago. But even as said 2130 01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:58,080 Speaker 1: of Chicago, I don't think it's as well known as 2131 01:54:58,400 --> 01:55:01,360 Speaker 1: some of the other police killings, and that's the killing 2132 01:55:01,520 --> 01:55:07,120 Speaker 1: of Rickiya Boyd. Um. Yeah, do you want to walk 2133 01:55:07,240 --> 01:55:13,880 Speaker 1: us through how basically what happened the night that uh 2134 01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:17,920 Speaker 1: don't I servant killed Rickuet Boyd? And yeah, we can 2135 01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:21,720 Speaker 1: start from there. Sure, sure, I mean there's some context 2136 01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:26,040 Speaker 1: here for sure about sort of the the way we 2137 01:55:26,120 --> 01:55:30,160 Speaker 1: ignore the murders of black women specifically. Um. And you know, 2138 01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:35,120 Speaker 1: Rickia Boyd was was murdered after sort of like the 2139 01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:38,640 Speaker 1: first wave of of national Black Lives Matter protests. So 2140 01:55:38,800 --> 01:55:40,760 Speaker 1: it wasn't like it wasn't on the radar, right that 2141 01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:46,280 Speaker 1: people weren't talking about police killing black people. Um, but there, 2142 01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, there is this long standing issue of course, 2143 01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:52,240 Speaker 1: was like the killings of black women specifically not getting 2144 01:55:52,280 --> 01:55:56,720 Speaker 1: as much attention, right, And this was just such a horrible, 2145 01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:02,280 Speaker 1: horrible incident that, like, I mean, looking at the details, 2146 01:56:02,360 --> 01:56:03,840 Speaker 1: even even though I live here and I was like 2147 01:56:03,920 --> 01:56:06,160 Speaker 1: around when it happened, and some of our other you know, 2148 01:56:06,240 --> 01:56:09,600 Speaker 1: the other journalists and are collective covered the protests and 2149 01:56:09,800 --> 01:56:13,240 Speaker 1: and and the the court drama and everything, it still 2150 01:56:13,280 --> 01:56:17,840 Speaker 1: just blows my mind. Um, the way this happened, and um, 2151 01:56:19,000 --> 01:56:22,280 Speaker 1: you know. Ultimately, the most important thing to take away 2152 01:56:22,320 --> 01:56:24,600 Speaker 1: from it is that her family never saw a justice. 2153 01:56:24,880 --> 01:56:29,240 Speaker 1: He walked away. He walked away from the incident and 2154 01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:34,800 Speaker 1: then went on to start training police in Latin America, 2155 01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:38,240 Speaker 1: which we can talk about also, so so, not only 2156 01:56:38,320 --> 01:56:40,760 Speaker 1: did this, did the Chicago police officer who was off 2157 01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:44,840 Speaker 1: duty with an unregistered gun murder and innocent twenty two 2158 01:56:44,880 --> 01:56:47,240 Speaker 1: year old black women hang out with her friends in 2159 01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:51,080 Speaker 1: a park. He then got a job with like a 2160 01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:58,880 Speaker 1: tactical training institute to travel to Honduras and train police there. Yeah, 2161 01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:00,920 Speaker 1: I think we can. We I think yeah we We 2162 01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:05,000 Speaker 1: definitely will be getting to the sort of international ankle 2163 01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:10,360 Speaker 1: of this. But yeah, the explorer of American policing essentially. Yeah, 2164 01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:13,080 Speaker 1: but I guess for people who aren't familiar with what happened, 2165 01:57:13,360 --> 01:57:18,080 Speaker 1: UM can can cantu walk through that? Yeah? So so 2166 01:57:18,320 --> 01:57:23,720 Speaker 1: serving showed up UM at a park with an unregistered gun. 2167 01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:30,000 Speaker 1: Um he you know, witnesses reported that he smelled like 2168 01:57:30,040 --> 01:57:32,600 Speaker 1: alcohol that night. He may have been drinking. I don't 2169 01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:34,920 Speaker 1: know if that that was ever verified, but certainly wouldn't 2170 01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:40,360 Speaker 1: be surprising. Um showed up at this park to complain 2171 01:57:40,440 --> 01:57:47,360 Speaker 1: about a group of people making noise, and oneever key 2172 01:57:47,400 --> 01:57:51,080 Speaker 1: Avoids friends approached the car with a cell phone in 2173 01:57:51,160 --> 01:57:54,480 Speaker 1: his hand, which servant then would go on to say, 2174 01:57:54,480 --> 01:57:58,720 Speaker 1: I thought was a gun and started firing shots and 2175 01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:04,000 Speaker 1: shot Rocky avoiding the Um. He wasn't on duty, he 2176 01:58:04,120 --> 01:58:07,840 Speaker 1: wasn't actively policing. This was totally totally outside of the 2177 01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:14,640 Speaker 1: realm of duty incident, right, yeah. Um. And no weapon 2178 01:58:14,760 --> 01:58:17,560 Speaker 1: was ever recovered from the scene, nothing like that. I mean, 2179 01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:22,720 Speaker 1: it was there was no in no universe was there 2180 01:58:22,760 --> 01:58:27,520 Speaker 1: any justification for this. Right, It just defies, it defies 2181 01:58:27,600 --> 01:58:31,080 Speaker 1: logic like that that it could even happen this way. Um. 2182 01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:35,600 Speaker 1: And after it happened, you know, so not only did 2183 01:58:35,640 --> 01:58:39,800 Speaker 1: he kill Rickie avoid in this park, um, but after 2184 01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:41,720 Speaker 1: it happened, there was there was just a lot of 2185 01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:43,760 Speaker 1: like there were a lot of misteps in in the 2186 01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:48,560 Speaker 1: justice system. Um. And it has been I think, I 2187 01:58:48,640 --> 01:58:51,680 Speaker 1: want to say, like seventeen years at that point since 2188 01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:58,000 Speaker 1: a Chicago cop had actually been charged with with murder. Right, Um, 2189 01:58:58,200 --> 01:59:00,160 Speaker 1: so it has been a long time since there had 2190 01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:09,880 Speaker 1: been even any accountability. And um, basically the prosecutor there 2191 01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:13,040 Speaker 1: was something called a directed verdict, where the prosecutor essentially 2192 01:59:13,960 --> 01:59:18,400 Speaker 1: under charged him intentionally or we think it was intentionally 2193 01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:23,600 Speaker 1: um with with like reckless conduct and manslaughter, and the 2194 01:59:23,720 --> 01:59:31,440 Speaker 1: judge tossed the case because the judge was saying, you know, 2195 01:59:31,640 --> 01:59:34,280 Speaker 1: it didn't even meet the criteria for for reckless conduct 2196 01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:37,280 Speaker 1: because it was clearly first degree murder, and then he 2197 01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:40,240 Speaker 1: couldn't be tried again because of rules surrounding double jeopardy, 2198 01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:46,280 Speaker 1: which is like just a it's just like what like 2199 01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:49,200 Speaker 1: it's it's such like I was reading this like it's paffling, 2200 01:59:49,320 --> 01:59:53,200 Speaker 1: Like it's like this whole thing is like it's it's 2201 01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:55,720 Speaker 1: very like very very seemed very clearly have to fail. 2202 01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:58,360 Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, like we're we're gonna we're gonna intentionally 2203 01:59:58,440 --> 02:00:00,960 Speaker 1: have a case will reach right this guy with things 2204 02:00:01,040 --> 02:00:03,600 Speaker 1: that you that you just you cannot convictim of because 2205 02:00:03,760 --> 02:00:06,840 Speaker 1: like again it's it's it's not it's not like manslaughter. 2206 02:00:07,040 --> 02:00:11,960 Speaker 1: He just he drove up and shot her, right, He 2207 02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:16,920 Speaker 1: very very clearly with intention shot Ricky Boyd. And it 2208 02:00:17,160 --> 02:00:18,760 Speaker 1: very much seems like they planned this out that they 2209 02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:21,160 Speaker 1: were like and you know this is we talked about 2210 02:00:21,160 --> 02:00:25,160 Speaker 1: this on on their last CPD episode, Like prosecutors collaborate 2211 02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:29,720 Speaker 1: with judges and the police constantly because that's just how 2212 02:00:30,160 --> 02:00:35,360 Speaker 1: the thing called the justice system works. Um. But like yeah, 2213 02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:38,520 Speaker 1: like this is like a parcripulally egregious example of them 2214 02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:41,280 Speaker 1: just setting up the case that they know that they 2215 02:00:41,400 --> 02:00:46,440 Speaker 1: just knew would fail exactly. And this is the same 2216 02:00:46,520 --> 02:00:51,160 Speaker 1: prosecutor who was ousted in the aftermath of the Laca 2217 02:00:51,320 --> 02:00:55,680 Speaker 1: McDonald murder. Um. You know, there were there were very 2218 02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:59,280 Speaker 1: large protests. Then there was a hashtag going on social media. 2219 02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:01,320 Speaker 1: Her name is in need to Alvarez. So the hashtag 2220 02:01:01,480 --> 02:01:05,120 Speaker 1: was by Anita Yeah, and and it was Anita Alphres. 2221 02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:08,320 Speaker 1: Like I think people outside the city probably didn't I 2222 02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:12,400 Speaker 1: don't know about much about this, but like this Anita 2223 02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Alvarez was like so hated that like like every like 2224 02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:20,880 Speaker 1: like everyone in the city basically worked together a runner 2225 02:01:20,920 --> 02:01:23,880 Speaker 1: out like you had, like you had like liberals and 2226 02:01:23,880 --> 02:01:29,520 Speaker 1: anarchist groups like working together like like like everyone in 2227 02:01:29,560 --> 02:01:32,680 Speaker 1: this say like all like the the the electoralists, nanci electoralists, 2228 02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:36,480 Speaker 1: like the people who just like have no politics basically whatsoever. 2229 02:01:36,600 --> 02:01:37,800 Speaker 1: Like it was it was just sort of it was 2230 02:01:37,880 --> 02:01:44,480 Speaker 1: just really incredible like coalition because she like just the 2231 02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:48,040 Speaker 1: stuff Anita Alfarez is doing is just so egregious that 2232 02:01:48,440 --> 02:01:50,560 Speaker 1: everyone was able to find a way to put aside 2233 02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:54,320 Speaker 1: their differences on just the logic of get her out 2234 02:01:56,960 --> 02:02:00,120 Speaker 1: right right. But you know, to know again, that was 2235 02:02:00,160 --> 02:02:03,680 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of the Lakoha McDonald's shooting, and you know, 2236 02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:08,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't it didn't what happened with Rickia Boyd wasn't 2237 02:02:08,640 --> 02:02:12,520 Speaker 1: enough for those large protests. And and this is not 2238 02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:15,800 Speaker 1: to like Denni grade or demean the people who did 2239 02:02:15,880 --> 02:02:19,040 Speaker 1: come out in protests, because it's still like, like there 2240 02:02:19,080 --> 02:02:22,160 Speaker 1: were still protests, don't get me wrong, Like people showed 2241 02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:27,600 Speaker 1: up for Rakiya. But the difference in people showing up 2242 02:02:27,600 --> 02:02:31,800 Speaker 1: for Rakia and people showing up for black men being shot, 2243 02:02:31,880 --> 02:02:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, like that that's something that black women have 2244 02:02:33,640 --> 02:02:35,240 Speaker 1: drawn attention to you. You know, they're like, why don't 2245 02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:39,800 Speaker 1: you care when we get murdered? Um? And it's just 2246 02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:44,520 Speaker 1: it's become this sort of um, you know, ongoing chance, 2247 02:02:44,600 --> 02:02:47,760 Speaker 1: Like if you go to any Chicago racial justice protests, 2248 02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:50,720 Speaker 1: you will hear people say, we do this for Lakwan, 2249 02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:54,720 Speaker 1: we do this for Rakiya, because it's just one of 2250 02:02:54,800 --> 02:02:57,800 Speaker 1: those names that, for whatever reason, based on what was 2251 02:02:57,880 --> 02:02:59,720 Speaker 1: going on in the media at the time, just like 2252 02:03:00,640 --> 02:03:05,760 Speaker 1: didn't make its way outside of Chicago very much. Um, 2253 02:03:06,000 --> 02:03:08,520 Speaker 1: and we're seeing a similar sort of situation right now. 2254 02:03:08,680 --> 02:03:11,720 Speaker 1: Is what happened with the mirrorlock in Minneapolis. Right Like, 2255 02:03:12,680 --> 02:03:15,920 Speaker 1: that was something where I think a lot of us thought, Okay, wow, 2256 02:03:16,120 --> 02:03:19,800 Speaker 1: this this is gonna this is going to explode. You know, 2257 02:03:20,080 --> 02:03:23,160 Speaker 1: this is such just a horrible miscarriage of justice, Like 2258 02:03:23,240 --> 02:03:26,920 Speaker 1: how could this happen? Um, surely there will be massive 2259 02:03:27,040 --> 02:03:29,560 Speaker 1: protests again, you know, something like that. And of course, 2260 02:03:30,560 --> 02:03:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, Minneapolis was out there. We had like some 2261 02:03:33,000 --> 02:03:36,680 Speaker 1: small actions here in Chicago but didn't really catch fire, 2262 02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:39,400 Speaker 1: so to say. I mean, I think that there's always 2263 02:03:39,400 --> 02:03:42,280 Speaker 1: sort of cycles of this where you know that there's 2264 02:03:42,280 --> 02:03:44,800 Speaker 1: cycles where you get these massive protesting cycles that you 2265 02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:47,560 Speaker 1: don't but you know, And I think this is one 2266 02:03:47,560 --> 02:03:49,040 Speaker 1: of the things with that you can look at with 2267 02:03:49,080 --> 02:03:53,000 Speaker 1: the Cube Boy too, where it's it's like, regardless of 2268 02:03:53,080 --> 02:03:57,080 Speaker 1: whether people are in the streets or not, the killing continues. 2269 02:03:57,960 --> 02:04:01,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, and I think that's just just sort of 2270 02:04:01,480 --> 02:04:04,640 Speaker 1: that's an extremely grim thing to live with, but that 2271 02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:07,760 Speaker 1: that just you know that that that's just what the 2272 02:04:07,840 --> 02:04:11,160 Speaker 1: police is, right and until you know, until they are 2273 02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:14,320 Speaker 1: actually stopped, You're just going to keep getting this cycle 2274 02:04:14,520 --> 02:04:18,600 Speaker 1: of I don't even know if select selective outrage is 2275 02:04:18,640 --> 02:04:22,240 Speaker 1: the right word, but you get these cycles of people 2276 02:04:22,280 --> 02:04:24,600 Speaker 1: who get murdered and there's this protests and people who 2277 02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:30,320 Speaker 1: get murdered and get forgotten and yeah, yeah, yeah, and 2278 02:04:30,560 --> 02:04:35,200 Speaker 1: and it really does seem to be kind of you know, 2279 02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:37,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of layers to it, Like like obviously 2280 02:04:38,000 --> 02:04:41,200 Speaker 1: the misogyny against black women is part of it, and 2281 02:04:41,320 --> 02:04:45,800 Speaker 1: I think the media just you know, is a part 2282 02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:48,680 Speaker 1: of it too. Like I mean, I'm a part of 2283 02:04:48,720 --> 02:04:51,320 Speaker 1: the media in a sense, but we're alternative media, so 2284 02:04:51,400 --> 02:04:53,400 Speaker 1: it's a little bit different. But you know, like there 2285 02:04:53,440 --> 02:04:56,720 Speaker 1: are there are choices made behind closed doors about what 2286 02:04:57,000 --> 02:05:03,760 Speaker 1: stories to follow and and amplify. And um, I will say, 2287 02:05:03,920 --> 02:05:07,400 Speaker 1: you know what I will say is I think because 2288 02:05:07,440 --> 02:05:10,120 Speaker 1: of what happened in I think there's a lot more 2289 02:05:10,640 --> 02:05:16,040 Speaker 1: scrutiny on Chicago police now, at least more mainstream scrutiny 2290 02:05:16,080 --> 02:05:22,760 Speaker 1: of them than there was back in when Rikiya was murdered. Um. 2291 02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,360 Speaker 1: And that's not to say that we're doing enough because 2292 02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:28,600 Speaker 1: we have, because we absolutely are not. But I I 2293 02:05:28,720 --> 02:05:33,520 Speaker 1: think did in some way, you know, push things just 2294 02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:35,840 Speaker 1: like a little bit further if that makes sense that 2295 02:05:36,040 --> 02:05:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, there are some more liberal mainstream types of 2296 02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:44,320 Speaker 1: people talking about the horrors of Chicago policing and and 2297 02:05:44,400 --> 02:05:45,880 Speaker 1: all of that. But you know, when it comes to 2298 02:05:45,960 --> 02:05:51,480 Speaker 1: Chicago police, like I just they're they're apparatus is so massive, 2299 02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:53,960 Speaker 1: like not just from like the funding they get, but 2300 02:05:54,080 --> 02:05:58,200 Speaker 1: like their media and pr you know, the prosecutors and 2301 02:05:58,240 --> 02:06:01,560 Speaker 1: the judges like you mentioned are absolutely part of the 2302 02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:07,080 Speaker 1: policing apparatus. Like they're not separate, right, It's prosecutors are cops. 2303 02:06:07,400 --> 02:06:09,920 Speaker 1: And we have a prosecutor for a mayor and she 2304 02:06:10,160 --> 02:06:12,800 Speaker 1: is a cop like like and and you know it 2305 02:06:12,960 --> 02:06:15,840 Speaker 1: was black youth who tried so hard to speak up 2306 02:06:15,840 --> 02:06:18,200 Speaker 1: about this before she was elected and and said like 2307 02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:21,960 Speaker 1: Lori Lightfoot is a cop, and people didn't listen to them. 2308 02:06:23,680 --> 02:06:25,840 Speaker 1: And that's where we're at now, where we have this 2309 02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:30,520 Speaker 1: this prosecutor for a mayor who's because of her background, 2310 02:06:30,600 --> 02:06:33,080 Speaker 1: like she can only view things through a punitive lens, 2311 02:06:33,680 --> 02:06:37,680 Speaker 1: Like her answer to everything is just punishment. How can 2312 02:06:37,760 --> 02:06:41,960 Speaker 1: we how can we punish people? Yeah? The only things 2313 02:06:42,000 --> 02:06:43,880 Speaker 1: she was trying to do recently what she wanted to 2314 02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:50,680 Speaker 1: do these like basically this measure where they called it 2315 02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:53,360 Speaker 1: like an anti gang funding thing, but it was basically 2316 02:06:53,480 --> 02:06:55,880 Speaker 1: just like if there's a group of people, you can 2317 02:06:55,920 --> 02:06:57,920 Speaker 1: just take the cops and just take money from them. 2318 02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:01,560 Speaker 1: And it was like it was just an incredible things 2319 02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:03,880 Speaker 1: like it was it was you know, part of what's 2320 02:07:03,880 --> 02:07:05,640 Speaker 1: going on here is that I've talked about this before, 2321 02:07:05,760 --> 02:07:09,760 Speaker 1: but like Lori Lightfoot is you know, at the time, 2322 02:07:10,240 --> 02:07:12,200 Speaker 1: I think people voted for her partially because they just 2323 02:07:12,240 --> 02:07:15,120 Speaker 1: didn't listen and the North Siders were just like, oh hey, 2324 02:07:15,280 --> 02:07:19,280 Speaker 1: look it's Loria Lightfoot. But then you know, like part 2325 02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:21,240 Speaker 1: part of it was she she she ran as like 2326 02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:23,760 Speaker 1: the anti machine candidate, and it was like, no, she's 2327 02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:27,320 Speaker 1: just a cop. But like I think the just thing is, 2328 02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:30,880 Speaker 1: you know, like she she's like incredibly widely hated, like 2329 02:07:31,040 --> 02:07:34,360 Speaker 1: to the point where like you know, the Chicago City 2330 02:07:34,440 --> 02:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Council is like not notably a a anti police body, 2331 02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:42,120 Speaker 1: but like even the city council was like, you can't 2332 02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:46,120 Speaker 1: do this, Like then they you know, they actually blocked 2333 02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:49,080 Speaker 1: I think if if if, if I'm if I'm getting 2334 02:07:49,120 --> 02:07:50,880 Speaker 1: my my my facts right on this, Like I'm pretty 2335 02:07:50,880 --> 02:07:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they blocked life with reposal because it 2336 02:07:53,960 --> 02:07:58,400 Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, and that that's been one of 2337 02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:00,280 Speaker 1: the things that was like we've had a cop pool 2338 02:08:00,440 --> 02:08:05,080 Speaker 1: of like weird kind of like attempts to reign the 2339 02:08:05,160 --> 02:08:08,400 Speaker 1: CPD in, but they're not really happening because of like 2340 02:08:09,040 --> 02:08:11,920 Speaker 1: anti police sentiment. They're basically happening because the city council's 2341 02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:17,840 Speaker 1: feuding with a mayor. Weird. Yeah, and and you know, 2342 02:08:18,040 --> 02:08:23,440 Speaker 1: I've seen it, like it's it's she's such an god. 2343 02:08:23,680 --> 02:08:27,160 Speaker 1: I could the figure of Mayor lor lor lifebook. I mean, 2344 02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:30,040 Speaker 1: it just makes no sense, right because she's hated by 2345 02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:34,120 Speaker 1: people on the left, you know, who obviously are anti police. Thing, 2346 02:08:34,320 --> 02:08:43,440 Speaker 1: she's also hated by the police, ye, just like yeah, 2347 02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:45,360 Speaker 1: she I mean, if you go through any of the 2348 02:08:45,440 --> 02:08:49,880 Speaker 1: conservative like cop blogs and Twitter accounts, you know, Chicago 2349 02:08:49,920 --> 02:08:52,840 Speaker 1: police are very active on social media, right, which is 2350 02:08:53,680 --> 02:08:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's whole a whole thing in of itself. 2351 02:08:57,360 --> 02:09:00,280 Speaker 1: These people, you know, they shouldn't be pope broad asking 2352 02:09:00,320 --> 02:09:04,160 Speaker 1: the things on social media that they do. But she's 2353 02:09:04,280 --> 02:09:09,120 Speaker 1: universally hated by everyone at this point. Um, So you know, 2354 02:09:11,600 --> 02:09:13,600 Speaker 1: it's just been a really it's been a really tough 2355 02:09:13,680 --> 02:09:18,360 Speaker 1: couple of years for Chicago since the riots, especially because 2356 02:09:19,640 --> 02:09:23,400 Speaker 1: Chicago just the word has become so loaded in the 2357 02:09:23,520 --> 02:09:29,000 Speaker 1: national media, right, like it's become this this this racist 2358 02:09:29,080 --> 02:09:33,400 Speaker 1: boogeyman essentially for like, what what could happen to your 2359 02:09:33,440 --> 02:09:38,160 Speaker 1: city if if the woke mobs successfully defund police or 2360 02:09:38,360 --> 02:09:42,840 Speaker 1: you know whatever, which is completely at odds with reality 2361 02:09:43,000 --> 02:09:45,600 Speaker 1: because at no point have we defunded the police, Like 2362 02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:48,360 Speaker 1: they just keeps increasing. Yeah, like what what's what? What's 2363 02:09:48,360 --> 02:09:51,680 Speaker 1: their budget is? Like, like is it I want to 2364 02:09:51,720 --> 02:09:54,120 Speaker 1: say it's the total budget, but I think that's low. 2365 02:09:55,640 --> 02:09:57,920 Speaker 1: It's something like that. I mean it's billions of dollars, 2366 02:09:58,040 --> 02:10:03,080 Speaker 1: Like it's we're pumping billions of dollars into this standing 2367 02:10:03,280 --> 02:10:09,320 Speaker 1: army that is that is basically occupying of Trigo's budget 2368 02:10:09,640 --> 02:10:16,760 Speaker 1: goes to the police department, right, right, And you know 2369 02:10:16,840 --> 02:10:21,800 Speaker 1: all of that money could obviously be spent on other things, 2370 02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:26,040 Speaker 1: and and we know, like we know what reduces crime. 2371 02:10:26,560 --> 02:10:29,720 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously we could get into like the category 2372 02:10:29,800 --> 02:10:31,760 Speaker 1: of what even is a crime? Right, Like there are 2373 02:10:31,960 --> 02:10:35,320 Speaker 1: certainly lots of things that shouldn't be labeled crimes that 2374 02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:42,280 Speaker 1: are but we know that communities with resources don't have 2375 02:10:42,560 --> 02:10:47,120 Speaker 1: significant violent crime problems, Like we know that lifting people 2376 02:10:47,160 --> 02:10:51,200 Speaker 1: out of poverty and giving them opportunities and homes and 2377 02:10:51,280 --> 02:10:54,080 Speaker 1: all of these things, like we know that that reduces 2378 02:10:54,200 --> 02:11:00,000 Speaker 1: in our personal harm, and instead we just keep looking 2379 02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:03,560 Speaker 1: and everything through this lens of punishment and how punitive 2380 02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:11,520 Speaker 1: we can be. Yeah. Yeah, and it's been I don't know. 2381 02:11:14,600 --> 02:11:18,160 Speaker 1: The Chicago Police Department is just it's just an absolute 2382 02:11:18,240 --> 02:11:22,680 Speaker 1: horror show. Um. And it's a horror show. And and 2383 02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:24,800 Speaker 1: they're also like it's a horror show not just because 2384 02:11:24,840 --> 02:11:28,840 Speaker 1: of how evil they are, but also because they're incompetent, right, Yeah, 2385 02:11:29,920 --> 02:11:32,440 Speaker 1: Like you've got them doing all of these really bad 2386 02:11:32,520 --> 02:11:36,240 Speaker 1: things and then they also just like struggle to to 2387 02:11:36,560 --> 02:11:39,960 Speaker 1: cover up their crime, and then they're messing up like 2388 02:11:40,080 --> 02:11:46,360 Speaker 1: along the way at every step. Yeah, and it's yeah, 2389 02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:52,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, they have the CPDS Like it's they 2390 02:11:52,120 --> 02:11:53,440 Speaker 1: have this kind of you know, I mean, I don't know, 2391 02:11:53,440 --> 02:11:55,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how you exactly unique it is. But 2392 02:11:55,480 --> 02:11:58,440 Speaker 1: but I think going back to our sort of theory 2393 02:11:58,560 --> 02:12:00,520 Speaker 1: of like every police department has one thing that they're 2394 02:12:00,560 --> 02:12:02,720 Speaker 1: really good at it the CBD has this unique combination 2395 02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:06,480 Speaker 1: of like incompetence, torture, and crime that they do. That's 2396 02:12:06,560 --> 02:12:09,280 Speaker 1: like I think so, I think sets it apart from 2397 02:12:09,320 --> 02:12:14,640 Speaker 1: a lot of other UM police departments. I think that's 2398 02:12:14,680 --> 02:12:17,360 Speaker 1: a good place to sort of jump off into the 2399 02:12:17,440 --> 02:12:20,680 Speaker 1: second I guess part of the rickyed Boyd story, or 2400 02:12:21,120 --> 02:12:23,400 Speaker 1: really it seems to be the Ricked Boyd story. It's 2401 02:12:23,440 --> 02:12:28,280 Speaker 1: the story of Dante Servant, which is his role in 2402 02:12:29,440 --> 02:12:37,720 Speaker 1: essentially exporting American policing and the horrors of UM, the 2403 02:12:37,760 --> 02:12:39,720 Speaker 1: horrors of the American police system, the horrors of sort 2404 02:12:39,760 --> 02:12:43,000 Speaker 1: of American imperialism to other countries, because it is not 2405 02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:46,160 Speaker 1: enough that the CPD murders people here, They've also got 2406 02:12:46,280 --> 02:12:50,640 Speaker 1: to do it other places, right, right, And and so 2407 02:12:50,800 --> 02:12:53,920 Speaker 1: there was a there was a Chicago Reader piece written 2408 02:12:53,960 --> 02:13:00,120 Speaker 1: about this UM back in February. Servants not mentioned in it, 2409 02:13:00,440 --> 02:13:03,160 Speaker 1: but it was a really good story. I recommend people 2410 02:13:03,200 --> 02:13:05,320 Speaker 1: look it up because, you know, some of this research 2411 02:13:05,520 --> 02:13:08,280 Speaker 1: is not like my original research, right, it's it stems 2412 02:13:08,320 --> 02:13:11,280 Speaker 1: from the research that people with the Invisible Institute did. 2413 02:13:11,400 --> 02:13:17,560 Speaker 1: But essentially, you know, there are Chicago police officers, and 2414 02:13:17,800 --> 02:13:21,360 Speaker 1: there's one in particular. His name is Aaron Cunningham. He's 2415 02:13:21,400 --> 02:13:27,400 Speaker 1: the man who UM founded this Tactical Training Institute UM 2416 02:13:28,680 --> 02:13:32,120 Speaker 1: that go you know, they go abroad, like they go 2417 02:13:32,200 --> 02:13:37,160 Speaker 1: to different countries and and it's private, privately funded, so 2418 02:13:37,320 --> 02:13:41,480 Speaker 1: they claim to be working with with the says, and 2419 02:13:41,760 --> 02:13:44,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like weird gray area there where 2420 02:13:44,040 --> 02:13:46,120 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of oversight and nobody really knows, 2421 02:13:46,280 --> 02:13:49,960 Speaker 1: like are you getting federal money to do this? Are 2422 02:13:50,040 --> 02:13:52,480 Speaker 1: you just saying you are? Like, like what's the deal? Right? 2423 02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:55,480 Speaker 1: But the Cunningham was essentially like a crooked cop who 2424 02:13:56,520 --> 02:13:59,839 Speaker 1: funded this tactical training institute so that they go oversee 2425 02:14:00,160 --> 02:14:07,360 Speaker 1: to underresourced countries with underresourced police departments and train them 2426 02:14:07,800 --> 02:14:11,520 Speaker 1: and how to be police. They train them in crowd control, 2427 02:14:11,600 --> 02:14:15,920 Speaker 1: they train them in like narcotics and drug investigations, they 2428 02:14:16,000 --> 02:14:19,400 Speaker 1: train them in like gang warfare, you know, all of 2429 02:14:19,520 --> 02:14:24,000 Speaker 1: these things, right, And these are countries that have tremendous 2430 02:14:24,080 --> 02:14:28,800 Speaker 1: issues with like you know, outright warfare going on between 2431 02:14:29,440 --> 02:14:34,400 Speaker 1: gangs and the existing police forces. Right, So they're in 2432 02:14:34,600 --> 02:14:37,520 Speaker 1: desperate need of of of aid, of assistance, and and 2433 02:14:37,640 --> 02:14:40,440 Speaker 1: of course, like some of these conflicts that are going 2434 02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:45,040 Speaker 1: on stem from American imperialism to begin with, right, So 2435 02:14:45,160 --> 02:14:48,880 Speaker 1: it's like we caused the problems, then we're gonna come 2436 02:14:48,920 --> 02:14:52,960 Speaker 1: in and like send a bunch of cops over who, 2437 02:14:53,120 --> 02:14:56,200 Speaker 1: like you know, have extensive misconduct records in their in 2438 02:14:56,240 --> 02:14:58,000 Speaker 1: their home cities, and some of them have even just 2439 02:14:58,120 --> 02:15:00,840 Speaker 1: like murdered innocent women in the park. Yeah, and we're 2440 02:15:00,880 --> 02:15:02,840 Speaker 1: going to have them train your guys into how to 2441 02:15:02,920 --> 02:15:10,040 Speaker 1: be cops. Yeah, and and yeah, you know that that 2442 02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:12,760 Speaker 1: goes about as well as you would expect it to, 2443 02:15:13,160 --> 02:15:15,640 Speaker 1: which is one of one of the things that the 2444 02:15:15,720 --> 02:15:19,920 Speaker 1: reader piece talks about is so one of they these 2445 02:15:19,920 --> 02:15:22,200 Speaker 1: guys keep brought in to train a bunch of cops. 2446 02:15:22,240 --> 02:15:24,680 Speaker 1: Now Salvador after the Al SALVADORI police do a bunch 2447 02:15:24,720 --> 02:15:27,680 Speaker 1: of horrible massacres, and then they trained these cops, and 2448 02:15:27,760 --> 02:15:30,480 Speaker 1: then the cops immediately turned around and also again do 2449 02:15:30,600 --> 02:15:34,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of horrible massacres. And it's it's this, it's this, 2450 02:15:37,200 --> 02:15:40,360 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I I don't want to de 2451 02:15:40,480 --> 02:15:45,879 Speaker 1: emphasize the fact that like the like Al Salvador for example, 2452 02:15:46,000 --> 02:15:48,560 Speaker 1: like is a place that has its own like native 2453 02:15:48,920 --> 02:15:50,880 Speaker 1: right wing like it had there, like it has his 2454 02:15:50,960 --> 02:15:53,320 Speaker 1: own SALVADORI like right wing death squads, right and they 2455 02:15:53,400 --> 02:15:54,960 Speaker 1: they you know, in the back by the CIA. But 2456 02:15:55,080 --> 02:16:00,960 Speaker 1: like you and I don't want to like under my underplay, 2457 02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:06,280 Speaker 1: just how violent, just like the local reactionaries are because 2458 02:16:06,400 --> 02:16:08,000 Speaker 1: it's it's not it's like it's it's it's it's not 2459 02:16:08,120 --> 02:16:11,720 Speaker 1: like they wouldn't also be death squads if the US 2460 02:16:11,880 --> 02:16:15,760 Speaker 1: wasn't there, but like the US, you know, and the 2461 02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:18,880 Speaker 1: chocol Police Apartment sending people to train them is making 2462 02:16:18,960 --> 02:16:24,440 Speaker 1: them even worse. And it's yeah, yeah, And and every 2463 02:16:24,520 --> 02:16:28,640 Speaker 1: place has their own right wing reactionaries, right like we're 2464 02:16:28,680 --> 02:16:32,680 Speaker 1: seeing right now. To bring to loop everything together and 2465 02:16:32,840 --> 02:16:34,440 Speaker 1: just bring us back to like what's going on with 2466 02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:40,160 Speaker 1: Ukraine and Russia, Um, it's related, you know, like both 2467 02:16:40,240 --> 02:16:44,480 Speaker 1: sides of this conflict of their own reactionary right wing forces, 2468 02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:49,039 Speaker 1: right yeah, And anywhere you go around the world, that's 2469 02:16:49,040 --> 02:16:54,120 Speaker 1: going to be a sting and empires like the American 2470 02:16:54,160 --> 02:16:58,840 Speaker 1: Empire or the Russian Empire are or the Al Salvador Empire, 2471 02:16:58,879 --> 02:17:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, whatever empire, they're going to be looking for 2472 02:17:01,520 --> 02:17:07,680 Speaker 1: ways to take advantage of those forces. And I think 2473 02:17:07,720 --> 02:17:12,640 Speaker 1: that what I think is important, Like one of the 2474 02:17:12,640 --> 02:17:15,120 Speaker 1: things I think is important about this politically is to 2475 02:17:15,280 --> 02:17:19,080 Speaker 1: understand that there is a like there there there is 2476 02:17:19,080 --> 02:17:23,000 Speaker 1: an incredible amount of international solidarity between cops right, they 2477 02:17:23,120 --> 02:17:25,920 Speaker 1: have you know, like that you know, I've seen I 2478 02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:28,400 Speaker 1: think there's a book called The Thin Blue Line International, 2479 02:17:28,480 --> 02:17:30,160 Speaker 1: but it's it's yeah, I mean, that's that's that's a 2480 02:17:30,280 --> 02:17:34,200 Speaker 1: thing like you see this basically where the cops, like 2481 02:17:35,040 --> 02:17:37,840 Speaker 1: the comps know which side they're on and it's the 2482 02:17:37,920 --> 02:17:41,199 Speaker 1: side of the other cops. And I think that's something 2483 02:17:41,320 --> 02:17:43,400 Speaker 1: that that confuses a lot of people because you can 2484 02:17:43,480 --> 02:17:45,920 Speaker 1: thinks like for example, like like that's the Chinese police, right, 2485 02:17:45,959 --> 02:17:49,440 Speaker 1: like the Chinese police like go like we're trained by 2486 02:17:49,560 --> 02:17:51,840 Speaker 1: I think, I mean what you know, because the like 2487 02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:53,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese place in Hong Kong for example, like that 2488 02:17:53,920 --> 02:17:57,280 Speaker 1: that police force like is still literally just colonial British 2489 02:17:57,280 --> 02:17:59,360 Speaker 1: police force. They just they didn't even like they didn't 2490 02:17:59,400 --> 02:18:02,520 Speaker 1: even bring in new people. They just like promoted a 2491 02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:05,840 Speaker 1: new person who was a British colonial police officer and 2492 02:18:05,959 --> 02:18:08,320 Speaker 1: then made them the new head of the police. And 2493 02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:11,520 Speaker 1: then you know, and those those and those cops are 2494 02:18:11,640 --> 02:18:15,760 Speaker 1: also trained by the trained by American comps trainer British cops. Uh, 2495 02:18:16,120 --> 02:18:18,640 Speaker 1: they're trained a lot by Israeli cops. Um this and 2496 02:18:18,680 --> 02:18:20,400 Speaker 1: this is this is this is the same thing. You know, 2497 02:18:20,440 --> 02:18:22,080 Speaker 1: it is the same thing with with with with the 2498 02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:25,360 Speaker 1: like the you know, like this this is the sort 2499 02:18:25,400 --> 02:18:27,920 Speaker 1: of the same effect that gets you like Erik Prince, 2500 02:18:28,480 --> 02:18:32,240 Speaker 1: like you know, being being like hired by the CCP 2501 02:18:32,360 --> 02:18:35,560 Speaker 1: to run stuff and change on like it's it's there's 2502 02:18:35,680 --> 02:18:41,680 Speaker 1: there's an incredible right wing sort of militarist comp alliance 2503 02:18:41,840 --> 02:18:45,920 Speaker 1: that go just you know, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's. 2504 02:18:46,000 --> 02:18:50,120 Speaker 1: It's a kind of international police solidarity that scrambles a 2505 02:18:50,200 --> 02:18:52,840 Speaker 1: lot of the sort of perceptions of what people think, 2506 02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:56,280 Speaker 1: like like what what how how people try to think 2507 02:18:56,320 --> 02:19:01,360 Speaker 1: about the world because yeah, and you know, and like fundamentally, 2508 02:19:01,440 --> 02:19:07,080 Speaker 1: like the basis they have is the defensive property and 2509 02:19:07,200 --> 02:19:11,480 Speaker 1: the defensive sort of the like the I usually call 2510 02:19:11,560 --> 02:19:16,080 Speaker 1: like the the global white supremacist regime. And they all know, 2511 02:19:16,440 --> 02:19:18,920 Speaker 1: you know, when when when an American cop Costa Salvador, 2512 02:19:19,000 --> 02:19:21,040 Speaker 1: like they know which side they're on. They're on the 2513 02:19:21,120 --> 02:19:25,200 Speaker 1: cops side, and it's and you know, and and they share, 2514 02:19:25,560 --> 02:19:28,200 Speaker 1: they share information, they share weapons, they share tactics, they 2515 02:19:28,280 --> 02:19:35,000 Speaker 1: share are you just literally people, they share training and yeah, 2516 02:19:35,080 --> 02:19:37,920 Speaker 1: and and of course because again it's the cpd uh, 2517 02:19:38,480 --> 02:19:44,280 Speaker 1: they shared Dante servant Yeah and so he he I 2518 02:19:44,520 --> 02:19:48,680 Speaker 1: you know, apparently at some point very shortly after the 2519 02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:51,720 Speaker 1: murder of Rakia Boyd. It looks like, based on what 2520 02:19:51,760 --> 02:19:53,760 Speaker 1: I've seen on his social media and what I pieced 2521 02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:57,520 Speaker 1: together from from his employment history, it looks like he 2522 02:19:57,640 --> 02:20:01,760 Speaker 1: had begun working with one of these tactical training institutes 2523 02:20:02,600 --> 02:20:07,680 Speaker 1: right before the murder. And then he murdered Rickie Avoid 2524 02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:10,000 Speaker 1: And I mean, I guess technically I'm not supposed to 2525 02:20:10,080 --> 02:20:15,360 Speaker 1: use the word murder, but you know, yeah, no fucking 2526 02:20:15,400 --> 02:20:20,160 Speaker 1: I mean murdered, and so, so he murdered Rickie Avoid, 2527 02:20:20,360 --> 02:20:25,040 Speaker 1: and then everything happened with like going through courts, and 2528 02:20:25,440 --> 02:20:30,039 Speaker 1: he walked away without being charged or imprisoned. I mean, 2529 02:20:30,120 --> 02:20:34,800 Speaker 1: he was charged, but without being convicted or imprisoned. Then, um, 2530 02:20:35,440 --> 02:20:40,040 Speaker 1: the police board, you know, recommended his firing, but he 2531 02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:43,680 Speaker 1: resigned two days before, like he was supposed to have 2532 02:20:43,720 --> 02:20:50,920 Speaker 1: his hearing, so he still gets a pension. I'm pretty 2533 02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:55,760 Speaker 1: sure that's how that word um yeah, and so he 2534 02:20:55,879 --> 02:20:58,880 Speaker 1: gets yeah. I don't I thought to confirm that, but 2535 02:20:58,879 --> 02:21:01,439 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure he gets the punch. So he resigns, 2536 02:21:01,560 --> 02:21:05,600 Speaker 1: and then at some point after he resigned, he starts 2537 02:21:06,080 --> 02:21:11,040 Speaker 1: posting to social media about his trips to Honduras, and 2538 02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:15,000 Speaker 1: you know it's posting photos of of like hanging out 2539 02:21:15,040 --> 02:21:17,840 Speaker 1: in the bar with with the cops down there and 2540 02:21:18,040 --> 02:21:21,080 Speaker 1: and kind of just all of that. And this is 2541 02:21:21,120 --> 02:21:23,240 Speaker 1: not like public information, like it's he has like a 2542 02:21:23,360 --> 02:21:27,480 Speaker 1: LinkedIn page where he's like lived the things he's been doing. 2543 02:21:27,560 --> 02:21:30,320 Speaker 1: Like like this is completely public. I don't know like 2544 02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:34,920 Speaker 1: why nobody knows about it or has talked about it. Um. 2545 02:21:35,680 --> 02:21:37,520 Speaker 1: But you know that also I think just comes back 2546 02:21:37,560 --> 02:21:40,720 Speaker 1: to this murder kind of flying under the national radar 2547 02:21:40,800 --> 02:21:46,240 Speaker 1: a lot um. And so you know, we don't know 2548 02:21:47,480 --> 02:21:53,960 Speaker 1: what company or organization he's there with. Um. It doesn't 2549 02:21:54,200 --> 02:21:57,480 Speaker 1: say he's with International Tactical Training Association, which is the 2550 02:21:57,840 --> 02:22:00,959 Speaker 1: the Chicago based group led by Aaron Uningham and his wife. 2551 02:22:02,040 --> 02:22:04,480 Speaker 1: My guest would be it's that group, because that's the 2552 02:22:04,520 --> 02:22:06,960 Speaker 1: big one out of face out of Chicago. But you know, 2553 02:22:07,080 --> 02:22:10,560 Speaker 1: like we can't I can't prove it could be another 2554 02:22:10,640 --> 02:22:12,680 Speaker 1: It could be another right wing tactical training group that's 2555 02:22:12,879 --> 02:22:16,200 Speaker 1: trained de squads. Yeah. And that's the thing, right, is 2556 02:22:16,240 --> 02:22:19,960 Speaker 1: that this is not just happening here in Chicago. So 2557 02:22:20,120 --> 02:22:24,160 Speaker 1: like there are these tactical training groups all over and 2558 02:22:25,800 --> 02:22:29,240 Speaker 1: there are a number of US based ones started by 2559 02:22:30,160 --> 02:22:34,840 Speaker 1: different police officers from different departments because it's kind of 2560 02:22:34,959 --> 02:22:37,600 Speaker 1: like a career path for them in a sense, because 2561 02:22:37,840 --> 02:22:41,760 Speaker 1: it's a thing they can do once they retire. You 2562 02:22:41,840 --> 02:22:45,279 Speaker 1: get and it's a moneymaker. You hold these these tactical 2563 02:22:45,360 --> 02:22:48,960 Speaker 1: training seminars, and so a number of them are domestically based, right, 2564 02:22:49,040 --> 02:22:51,280 Speaker 1: Like they're not necessarily going overseas, but what they're doing 2565 02:22:51,440 --> 02:22:55,360 Speaker 1: is there. They're having these seminars and their training other 2566 02:22:55,520 --> 02:23:00,400 Speaker 1: police officers in like certain things. Like some of them 2567 02:23:00,480 --> 02:23:02,560 Speaker 1: might be like an afternoon session where you go and 2568 02:23:02,640 --> 02:23:06,160 Speaker 1: you learn about like you know, firearms safety or something. 2569 02:23:06,879 --> 02:23:10,240 Speaker 1: Then there might be like larger ones where you go 2570 02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:13,800 Speaker 1: and you like stay and camp out for like three 2571 02:23:13,879 --> 02:23:20,080 Speaker 1: days and you practice like ambushing guerrilla gangs in the 2572 02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:24,840 Speaker 1: jungle or something like that. Um And then a lot 2573 02:23:24,920 --> 02:23:29,039 Speaker 1: of them are are based around guns safety and firearms training, 2574 02:23:29,120 --> 02:23:31,160 Speaker 1: and so many of those are open as of the 2575 02:23:31,200 --> 02:23:35,400 Speaker 1: general public. It depends. Some of these are like only 2576 02:23:35,520 --> 02:23:37,480 Speaker 1: for other cops or law enforcement, and you have to 2577 02:23:37,560 --> 02:23:40,360 Speaker 1: like show I D Or military and you have to 2578 02:23:40,600 --> 02:23:45,080 Speaker 1: prove um that you're affiliated with police and military. Some 2579 02:23:45,280 --> 02:23:46,880 Speaker 1: of them are open to the public and you just 2580 02:23:47,000 --> 02:23:52,840 Speaker 1: have to have like a firearms cart. So that's problematic 2581 02:23:53,600 --> 02:23:57,080 Speaker 1: for one reason because we found that in the aftermath 2582 02:23:57,280 --> 02:24:02,320 Speaker 1: of the January six Capital riot that a number of 2583 02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:07,960 Speaker 1: a number of the Capital rioters did attend like firearms 2584 02:24:08,040 --> 02:24:15,560 Speaker 1: training classes, tactical training classes in just various sort of locations. 2585 02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:24,320 Speaker 1: So this is a way for officers who have left 2586 02:24:24,360 --> 02:24:29,520 Speaker 1: the force for whatever reason to then have a captive audience. 2587 02:24:30,280 --> 02:24:34,879 Speaker 1: And Yeah, they're teaching them how to like shoot guns 2588 02:24:35,120 --> 02:24:38,960 Speaker 1: and you know, follow them more like specific sort of 2589 02:24:39,040 --> 02:24:42,440 Speaker 1: things like that, But what kind of conversations are they having, 2590 02:24:43,440 --> 02:24:47,280 Speaker 1: Like what kind of ideology is being espoused, what kind 2591 02:24:47,320 --> 02:24:51,040 Speaker 1: of other people are showing up to these meetings, and 2592 02:24:51,200 --> 02:24:54,320 Speaker 1: what are they talking about? What groups are they recruiting for, 2593 02:24:54,480 --> 02:24:57,720 Speaker 1: what are their affiliations. Yeah, and I think and I 2594 02:24:57,760 --> 02:25:00,840 Speaker 1: think that that's something that's important to think about and 2595 02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:04,440 Speaker 1: also to you know, have have more generation of journalists 2596 02:25:04,480 --> 02:25:07,480 Speaker 1: look into because you know, when when you look at 2597 02:25:07,560 --> 02:25:09,879 Speaker 1: these I mean like we know, we we we've had 2598 02:25:10,080 --> 02:25:12,360 Speaker 1: stories like this before, right, Like I mean, this is 2599 02:25:12,360 --> 02:25:17,760 Speaker 1: a lot of how for example, like the Taiwanese Special Forces, 2600 02:25:17,800 --> 02:25:21,520 Speaker 1: for example, UH spent an enormous amount of PARST Special 2601 02:25:21,560 --> 02:25:23,600 Speaker 1: Force apecially just the Taiwanese armies spent an enormous amount 2602 02:25:23,600 --> 02:25:26,920 Speaker 1: of time doing stuff very similar to this, and you know, 2603 02:25:27,040 --> 02:25:29,280 Speaker 1: the the product of that was and this is a 2604 02:25:30,160 --> 02:25:33,560 Speaker 1: this is cold warrior um. They're doing this the seventies 2605 02:25:33,600 --> 02:25:37,000 Speaker 1: and during this in the eighties, some excet the sixties, um, 2606 02:25:37,440 --> 02:25:39,920 Speaker 1: you know, and and I mean the product of this 2607 02:25:40,440 --> 02:25:44,480 Speaker 1: is like arena. The product of this is you know, 2608 02:25:44,720 --> 02:25:48,800 Speaker 1: the like the like one of the people they trained 2609 02:25:48,840 --> 02:25:52,240 Speaker 1: did the Almozete massacre, like and that that that kind 2610 02:25:52,280 --> 02:25:55,360 Speaker 1: of stuff. You can trace these these influence networks, and 2611 02:25:55,360 --> 02:25:57,240 Speaker 1: you can trace these sort of I mean a lot 2612 02:25:57,280 --> 02:26:00,200 Speaker 1: of this is i mean literally just funded by weird cults, um. 2613 02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:02,039 Speaker 1: But you can you know, you can trace these different 2614 02:26:02,040 --> 02:26:04,960 Speaker 1: sort of paramilitary and intelligence inflence networks, and what you 2615 02:26:05,160 --> 02:26:08,600 Speaker 1: see at the end of them is like a lot 2616 02:26:08,680 --> 02:26:11,280 Speaker 1: of the time, it's just a bunch of fascists, and 2617 02:26:11,480 --> 02:26:13,400 Speaker 1: it's a bunch it's a bunch of fascists doing coups 2618 02:26:14,400 --> 02:26:17,440 Speaker 1: and you know, like in some sense like yeah, this 2619 02:26:17,600 --> 02:26:20,840 Speaker 1: is this is a kind of like you know, like 2620 02:26:21,000 --> 02:26:24,840 Speaker 1: liberal democracy has this sort of problem, right, which is 2621 02:26:24,879 --> 02:26:28,200 Speaker 1: in order for liberal democracy too, you know, function as 2622 02:26:28,200 --> 02:26:30,320 Speaker 1: a liberal democracy, you have to have cops. And that 2623 02:26:30,440 --> 02:26:33,800 Speaker 1: means that you're you know, you are producing domestically and 2624 02:26:33,879 --> 02:26:38,920 Speaker 1: internationally a group of just ferocious, bloodthirsty right wing murderers, 2625 02:26:39,560 --> 02:26:41,360 Speaker 1: and you're you're giving them, sayuthority, and you're giving them 2626 02:26:41,360 --> 02:26:45,279 Speaker 1: all these training and weapons. And you know the product 2627 02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:47,600 Speaker 1: of that is they do what they're training to do, 2628 02:26:47,680 --> 02:26:49,520 Speaker 1: which is they kill people, they torture people, They train 2629 02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:51,640 Speaker 1: other people how to do this, and yeah, you get 2630 02:26:51,720 --> 02:26:55,160 Speaker 1: these these cascading series of effects that lead you know, 2631 02:26:55,160 --> 02:26:57,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of people taking these classes January six, They 2632 02:26:57,160 --> 02:26:59,480 Speaker 1: lead them to coups all over the world. They lead 2633 02:26:59,520 --> 02:27:02,040 Speaker 1: in the desk all to love the world. This has 2634 02:27:02,080 --> 02:27:04,560 Speaker 1: been It Could Happen Here Join us tomorrow for part 2635 02:27:04,600 --> 02:27:07,039 Speaker 1: two of our interview with Raven. You can find us 2636 02:27:07,080 --> 02:27:09,920 Speaker 1: on Instagram and on Twitter. It Happened Here pod check 2637 02:27:09,959 --> 02:27:11,680 Speaker 1: out the Cool Zone from More of a podcast, and 2638 02:27:11,840 --> 02:27:29,160 Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Welcome to It Could Happen Here, 2639 02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:32,000 Speaker 1: a podcast about how much I Christopher Wong hate the 2640 02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:36,080 Speaker 1: police and specifically the Chicago Police Department. UM and we 2641 02:27:36,160 --> 02:27:38,440 Speaker 1: are bringing you part two of my interview with Chicago 2642 02:27:38,520 --> 02:27:42,920 Speaker 1: journalist Raven about more crimes of the Chicago Police Department, 2643 02:27:43,000 --> 02:27:46,600 Speaker 1: the international in fact, and how the police weaponize race 2644 02:27:46,640 --> 02:27:48,920 Speaker 1: and class lines in order to preserve their power enjoy 2645 02:27:49,879 --> 02:27:52,360 Speaker 1: You know, I spent a lot of time just like 2646 02:27:53,879 --> 02:27:57,520 Speaker 1: in like cops social media spaces, right, and of course 2647 02:27:57,560 --> 02:28:01,600 Speaker 1: it's like rotting my brain, and you know, it's it's 2648 02:28:01,640 --> 02:28:05,680 Speaker 1: honestly just really tough to deal with sometimes. But you 2649 02:28:05,760 --> 02:28:08,680 Speaker 1: know one thing that we see like over and over 2650 02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:10,840 Speaker 1: again if you look at the memes that they share 2651 02:28:11,040 --> 02:28:13,800 Speaker 1: and the the posts that they write on spacebook and 2652 02:28:13,840 --> 02:28:18,920 Speaker 1: all of these things, is it's they the people as 2653 02:28:20,720 --> 02:28:26,320 Speaker 1: their enemy, right, like they're they're trained the military. The 2654 02:28:26,400 --> 02:28:30,440 Speaker 1: militarization of the police isn't just about the equipment that 2655 02:28:30,520 --> 02:28:32,720 Speaker 1: they have and the money that they have. It's also 2656 02:28:32,760 --> 02:28:37,400 Speaker 1: about their psychology and how they they view themselves as 2657 02:28:37,520 --> 02:28:43,440 Speaker 1: like warriors fighting the bad guys. But because of the 2658 02:28:43,560 --> 02:28:48,160 Speaker 1: nature of policing, the bad guys are literally anyone who 2659 02:28:48,400 --> 02:28:51,360 Speaker 1: isn't complying with what they say. And usually this is 2660 02:28:51,400 --> 02:28:56,959 Speaker 1: like black people, you know, marginalized people, poor people, um. 2661 02:28:57,640 --> 02:29:00,520 Speaker 1: And then there's sort of this like you see a 2662 02:29:00,560 --> 02:29:02,959 Speaker 1: lot of these like memes where they they talk about 2663 02:29:03,000 --> 02:29:08,560 Speaker 1: themselves as like sheep dogs protecting the sheep from the wolves. 2664 02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:13,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, and like the sheep are supposed to be 2665 02:29:13,520 --> 02:29:18,680 Speaker 1: like the innocence, which typically if you if you really 2666 02:29:18,720 --> 02:29:20,800 Speaker 1: go deep into it, it's like in their minds, that's 2667 02:29:20,840 --> 02:29:24,040 Speaker 1: like women and children who are like mostly white, right, 2668 02:29:24,640 --> 02:29:28,640 Speaker 1: Like they think they're protecting like white innocence from like 2669 02:29:29,720 --> 02:29:32,720 Speaker 1: bad guys. And and there are layers to it, right 2670 02:29:32,920 --> 02:29:36,400 Speaker 1: because like obviously it doesn't always work out that way. 2671 02:29:36,560 --> 02:29:39,520 Speaker 1: And you know, there are like poor white people in 2672 02:29:39,640 --> 02:29:42,720 Speaker 1: rural areas who deal with police repression. You know, there 2673 02:29:42,800 --> 02:29:47,280 Speaker 1: are like wealthy black people who get pulled over by 2674 02:29:47,320 --> 02:29:49,680 Speaker 1: the cops just because they're driving well black. Like, there 2675 02:29:49,720 --> 02:29:55,280 Speaker 1: are certainly like layers upon layers here, depending on like 2676 02:29:55,480 --> 02:29:59,000 Speaker 1: class and and just everything. But at the end of 2677 02:29:59,040 --> 02:30:03,680 Speaker 1: the day, like they're training themselves up to be a 2678 02:30:03,760 --> 02:30:11,600 Speaker 1: military fighting the people in invading their spaces, taking over. 2679 02:30:13,400 --> 02:30:18,320 Speaker 1: And the psychology of it is just really really dark too, 2680 02:30:18,440 --> 02:30:24,280 Speaker 1: because you have these people who because because we're sending 2681 02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:29,200 Speaker 1: them into underresourced communities sort of after the fact, after 2682 02:30:29,320 --> 02:30:32,960 Speaker 1: traumas occurred, after there have been there's been violence, there's 2683 02:30:33,000 --> 02:30:39,600 Speaker 1: been shootings, everyone's poor, you know, whatever, we're sending them 2684 02:30:39,640 --> 02:30:43,680 Speaker 1: into these places where there's just like the most horrible 2685 02:30:43,760 --> 02:30:48,360 Speaker 1: things about poverty and about violence are happening and that's 2686 02:30:48,360 --> 02:30:52,000 Speaker 1: all they're exposed to. So then they end up with 2687 02:30:52,120 --> 02:30:55,800 Speaker 1: PTSD or all of these problems, you know, like the 2688 02:30:55,840 --> 02:30:59,280 Speaker 1: alcoholism rate, domestic violence, right, all of these things within 2689 02:30:59,360 --> 02:31:03,640 Speaker 1: the Troublablie force are extremely high. And all of this 2690 02:31:03,760 --> 02:31:08,080 Speaker 1: comes back to because we're treating everything as punishment. We're 2691 02:31:08,120 --> 02:31:10,320 Speaker 1: coming in after the fact. We're not actually treating these 2692 02:31:10,360 --> 02:31:15,480 Speaker 1: problems at the source. We're just sending people in to 2693 02:31:15,800 --> 02:31:19,520 Speaker 1: to manage the chaos after the fact, and then they 2694 02:31:19,640 --> 02:31:24,560 Speaker 1: end up traumatized. They end up enacting more crime and 2695 02:31:24,640 --> 02:31:27,080 Speaker 1: more violence for these communities, and it just becomes the 2696 02:31:27,200 --> 02:31:32,080 Speaker 1: cycle but no one can get out of. And then 2697 02:31:32,120 --> 02:31:34,960 Speaker 1: it and it comes back to just like defunding the 2698 02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:39,320 Speaker 1: police and and state priorities, like where are we putting 2699 02:31:39,320 --> 02:31:41,320 Speaker 1: our resources, because if we were putting them in the 2700 02:31:41,440 --> 02:31:44,360 Speaker 1: right place, so many of these things wouldn't be happening 2701 02:31:44,360 --> 02:31:47,000 Speaker 1: in the first place. Yeah, and I think one everything, 2702 02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:49,400 Speaker 1: I think it's it's important that we talked about this 2703 02:31:49,520 --> 02:31:52,800 Speaker 1: on our you know, the episodes about the cartels. We 2704 02:31:52,879 --> 02:31:55,400 Speaker 1: talked about this on our episodes about the other episodes 2705 02:31:55,440 --> 02:31:57,800 Speaker 1: about chocol Police, which is that the the other thing 2706 02:31:57,879 --> 02:32:01,240 Speaker 1: that happens is that the Chicago police just they you know, 2707 02:32:01,360 --> 02:32:03,600 Speaker 1: they they see the drug trade and they go, Okay, 2708 02:32:03,640 --> 02:32:06,280 Speaker 1: we're just gonna get in on it, and you know, 2709 02:32:06,440 --> 02:32:08,959 Speaker 1: and the the sort of the combination of these people, 2710 02:32:09,240 --> 02:32:13,800 Speaker 1: these just incredibly violent, armed people with total impunity and 2711 02:32:14,200 --> 02:32:16,320 Speaker 1: an enormous amount of money is that you know, they 2712 02:32:17,320 --> 02:32:21,120 Speaker 1: they they they they become themselves just you know, they 2713 02:32:21,959 --> 02:32:23,920 Speaker 1: they become exactly the same thing that they that they 2714 02:32:23,959 --> 02:32:27,320 Speaker 1: were you know, nominally supposed to be fighting. And that 2715 02:32:27,600 --> 02:32:30,000 Speaker 1: has all of these these downstream effects. If you talked 2716 02:32:30,040 --> 02:32:34,800 Speaker 1: about the way that the way that this militarizes basically everything, right, 2717 02:32:34,840 --> 02:32:36,880 Speaker 1: this this militarizes the police just has that, you know, 2718 02:32:37,120 --> 02:32:39,160 Speaker 1: the violence of it has the effect of militarizing like 2719 02:32:39,760 --> 02:32:43,240 Speaker 1: militarizing everyone else, militarizes the non ste actors, and it 2720 02:32:43,360 --> 02:32:45,400 Speaker 1: just sort of it just keep rashing up the level 2721 02:32:45,440 --> 02:32:50,400 Speaker 1: of violence. And as long as you keep throwing the 2722 02:32:50,480 --> 02:32:51,880 Speaker 1: state at it, and as long as the state just 2723 02:32:52,120 --> 02:32:56,560 Speaker 1: keeps essentially like going okay, I just okay, we have 2724 02:32:56,600 --> 02:32:57,840 Speaker 1: a drug trade and I'll just got a cut of it, 2725 02:32:58,320 --> 02:33:00,800 Speaker 1: and as long as that keeps happening, like all of 2726 02:33:00,920 --> 02:33:04,760 Speaker 1: the stuff that the cops are you know, nominally there 2727 02:33:04,840 --> 02:33:07,039 Speaker 1: to to deal with, it's just going to keep escalating 2728 02:33:07,080 --> 02:33:11,200 Speaker 1: because the state that like because just because state violence 2729 02:33:11,360 --> 02:33:20,320 Speaker 1: is intensifying and making it worse, right, right, and it's 2730 02:33:20,400 --> 02:33:25,440 Speaker 1: just so like they're still fucking racist, Like I just can't, 2731 02:33:25,480 --> 02:33:27,440 Speaker 1: I mean, like I don't. We have to we have 2732 02:33:27,560 --> 02:33:29,840 Speaker 1: to keep talking about that because it's just like so 2733 02:33:30,120 --> 02:33:34,040 Speaker 1: much of just like where like where they get their 2734 02:33:34,080 --> 02:33:36,640 Speaker 1: information and how they exchange. Like if you look at 2735 02:33:36,680 --> 02:33:40,400 Speaker 1: these cops social networks and where they're getting their information, 2736 02:33:40,600 --> 02:33:42,520 Speaker 1: and the kinds of things they're saying to each other 2737 02:33:42,879 --> 02:33:48,760 Speaker 1: about black people in Chicago are all so ridiculously wrong 2738 02:33:50,120 --> 02:33:54,200 Speaker 1: because they're just parroting these like cop blogs that they 2739 02:33:54,280 --> 02:33:59,199 Speaker 1: read full of all kinds of just that shit fucking 2740 02:33:59,240 --> 02:34:01,920 Speaker 1: conspiracy there is about like our our black d a, 2741 02:34:02,200 --> 02:34:06,680 Speaker 1: our prosecutor excuse me, Kim Fox being like a puppet 2742 02:34:06,800 --> 02:34:12,520 Speaker 1: of George Soros. They literally believe this, and and it's 2743 02:34:12,560 --> 02:34:16,080 Speaker 1: echoed by people like Tucker Carlson, you know, in national media, 2744 02:34:16,160 --> 02:34:20,000 Speaker 1: like anytime Chicago comes up, you will hear these kinds 2745 02:34:20,000 --> 02:34:24,120 Speaker 1: of just completely off the wall conspiracy theories about like 2746 02:34:25,040 --> 02:34:33,320 Speaker 1: communist BLM and Tifa, Soros funded Kim Fox like ruining Chicago. 2747 02:34:33,760 --> 02:34:36,240 Speaker 1: And and I'm not like defending Kim Fox. Don't getting wrong. 2748 02:34:36,240 --> 02:34:39,200 Speaker 1: She's still a prosecutor. She's still like putting people in jail. 2749 02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:44,120 Speaker 1: But she you know, she was elected because she was 2750 02:34:44,240 --> 02:34:46,440 Speaker 1: to do she was supposed to be this big reformist 2751 02:34:47,720 --> 02:34:51,720 Speaker 1: and and all of that, and so she's become a target. 2752 02:34:51,760 --> 02:34:53,480 Speaker 1: And then she's also become a target for them because 2753 02:34:53,480 --> 02:34:58,600 Speaker 1: she's a black woman, so it's easy for them to 2754 02:34:59,400 --> 02:35:03,280 Speaker 1: to make her to a lightning rod of hate basically. Yeah, 2755 02:35:03,640 --> 02:35:09,880 Speaker 1: and you know, like they just the dehumanization of of 2756 02:35:10,040 --> 02:35:14,160 Speaker 1: black Chicagoans that you see in these in these Facebook 2757 02:35:14,200 --> 02:35:16,160 Speaker 1: posts that these people are writing and the things that 2758 02:35:16,200 --> 02:35:23,600 Speaker 1: they're tweeting, like it is violently disturbingly racist. And all 2759 02:35:23,720 --> 02:35:27,160 Speaker 1: of that comes back to just how they view themselves 2760 02:35:27,280 --> 02:35:30,840 Speaker 1: as like an occupying army in these communities, Like they 2761 02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:39,920 Speaker 1: don't view themselves as like cooperative partners in helping these communities. 2762 02:35:39,959 --> 02:35:43,440 Speaker 1: Like it's no words there to occupy, We're there to 2763 02:35:43,520 --> 02:35:48,640 Speaker 1: extract resources. We're there to like, you know, benefit off 2764 02:35:48,720 --> 02:35:52,840 Speaker 1: of this gain warfare if we can you know and 2765 02:35:53,080 --> 02:35:56,040 Speaker 1: and like you mentioned, like if you look at like 2766 02:35:56,440 --> 02:35:59,959 Speaker 1: the corruption and and the things that that have gone 2767 02:36:00,040 --> 02:36:02,480 Speaker 1: on with that, I mean, like I mean that goes 2768 02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:04,360 Speaker 1: back to city council, right. I mean we have we 2769 02:36:04,440 --> 02:36:07,440 Speaker 1: have alder men. We have we have older people who 2770 02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:13,120 Speaker 1: are essentially in bed with the cops, looking for looking 2771 02:36:13,160 --> 02:36:18,119 Speaker 1: out for them and you know, like their dedicated cop alderman. 2772 02:36:18,160 --> 02:36:21,000 Speaker 1: I mean, like all of our Chicago aldermen are older 2773 02:36:21,080 --> 02:36:26,080 Speaker 1: people excuse me, are Democrats by name. But it's like no, 2774 02:36:26,280 --> 02:36:30,160 Speaker 1: we have five or six older people who are Republicans. 2775 02:36:30,959 --> 02:36:34,480 Speaker 1: Like they called themselves democrats because they wouldn't be able 2776 02:36:34,480 --> 02:36:36,400 Speaker 1: to be elected in Chicago if they didn't. But they 2777 02:36:36,480 --> 02:36:40,720 Speaker 1: are absolutely like cop loving Republicans. You know, they just 2778 02:36:40,760 --> 02:36:43,640 Speaker 1: called themselves Democrats because they like support gay marriage or whatever. 2779 02:36:44,920 --> 02:36:48,040 Speaker 1: Well it's because it's Chicago and you can't run it 2780 02:36:48,879 --> 02:36:52,439 Speaker 1: like the like the the the only time a Democrat 2781 02:36:52,560 --> 02:36:55,600 Speaker 1: has ever lost one of these elections was the time 2782 02:36:55,959 --> 02:36:59,720 Speaker 1: a I want blanking on the name of the cult 2783 02:37:00,480 --> 02:37:05,840 Speaker 1: I the time of Larushite accidentally won the primary and 2784 02:37:06,280 --> 02:37:09,240 Speaker 1: lots of the like that. That's basically it, Like yeah, 2785 02:37:09,280 --> 02:37:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's you know this this is 2786 02:37:11,360 --> 02:37:14,400 Speaker 1: a democratic city, but you know, the democratic city just 2787 02:37:14,560 --> 02:37:20,320 Speaker 1: means incredibly right wing and police, which right, right. And 2788 02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:24,279 Speaker 1: when you look at the history of policing in Chicago, 2789 02:37:26,040 --> 02:37:29,160 Speaker 1: you have to go back decades and decades and kind 2790 02:37:29,160 --> 02:37:32,560 Speaker 1: of look also to it like where a lot of 2791 02:37:32,640 --> 02:37:39,320 Speaker 1: these cops came from. In the aftermath of like the 2792 02:37:39,480 --> 02:37:43,000 Speaker 1: dissolution of like the official like mafia and like al 2793 02:37:43,040 --> 02:37:47,160 Speaker 1: Capone and all that stuff, you had a lot of 2794 02:37:47,320 --> 02:37:53,879 Speaker 1: working class immigrants from like European communities, like the Polish community, 2795 02:37:54,360 --> 02:37:57,960 Speaker 1: the Irish community, the Italian community, and all of these 2796 02:37:58,000 --> 02:38:01,800 Speaker 1: communities have their own like police associations here, like the 2797 02:38:01,879 --> 02:38:06,959 Speaker 1: Italian American Police Association, the Polish American Police Association, all 2798 02:38:07,040 --> 02:38:09,920 Speaker 1: of these things, and and so like it becomes this 2799 02:38:11,520 --> 02:38:14,160 Speaker 1: being a cop to go back to sort of like 2800 02:38:14,240 --> 02:38:17,400 Speaker 1: the international ties here, being a cop becomes this like 2801 02:38:17,520 --> 02:38:20,280 Speaker 1: identity for them and their family is like a lot 2802 02:38:20,280 --> 02:38:23,720 Speaker 1: of people are cops because their dad was a cop, 2803 02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:26,320 Speaker 1: their grandpa was a cop, their cousins are cops, their 2804 02:38:26,360 --> 02:38:32,040 Speaker 1: brothers are cops. There's like a family honor sort of 2805 02:38:32,280 --> 02:38:35,360 Speaker 1: in like being a cop, and and a lot of 2806 02:38:35,440 --> 02:38:39,039 Speaker 1: them show, you know, and that that that goes back 2807 02:38:39,080 --> 02:38:40,960 Speaker 1: to why they show so much solidarity too with like 2808 02:38:41,040 --> 02:38:46,360 Speaker 1: cops from other countries is it's like the profession in 2809 02:38:46,480 --> 02:38:53,640 Speaker 1: and of itself is lionized. And then on top of that, 2810 02:38:53,840 --> 02:38:59,720 Speaker 1: you have right now in Chicago, like because of gentrification, 2811 02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:02,800 Speaker 1: because of just like immigration patterns and the way communities 2812 02:39:02,840 --> 02:39:09,720 Speaker 1: have changed. We have these like traditionally Polish Italian communities 2813 02:39:09,840 --> 02:39:15,720 Speaker 1: that feel like they're being encroached upon by mostly like 2814 02:39:16,400 --> 02:39:22,600 Speaker 1: Latin X communities. So we had for example, like you know, 2815 02:39:22,680 --> 02:39:27,200 Speaker 1: this shooting, um the murder of Anthony Alvarez up on 2816 02:39:27,480 --> 02:39:29,400 Speaker 1: up on the northwest side, the far northwest side of 2817 02:39:29,480 --> 02:39:33,960 Speaker 1: Chicago last year, and in the aftermath of that, we 2818 02:39:34,080 --> 02:39:39,240 Speaker 1: saw a lot of like pension between the traditional like 2819 02:39:39,480 --> 02:39:43,520 Speaker 1: Polish Polish American community up there and then the new 2820 02:39:43,600 --> 02:39:48,880 Speaker 1: wave of like Latin X immigrants UM. And the problem 2821 02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:51,400 Speaker 1: is a lot of the people in the Polish community 2822 02:39:51,440 --> 02:39:55,400 Speaker 1: up there have family and relatives who are cops. So 2823 02:39:56,240 --> 02:40:00,280 Speaker 1: we had like cops trashing the memorial you know, to 2824 02:40:00,400 --> 02:40:04,160 Speaker 1: the s Anthony Alvarez. We had like Polish biker gangs 2825 02:40:04,360 --> 02:40:07,920 Speaker 1: like riding by the rallies trying to like intimidate people 2826 02:40:08,920 --> 02:40:10,960 Speaker 1: and it all comes back to like white supremacy and 2827 02:40:11,040 --> 02:40:14,680 Speaker 1: and just straight up racism, right. Like there's another example 2828 02:40:14,760 --> 02:40:20,280 Speaker 1: of that with like the the Columbus statue that was 2829 02:40:20,320 --> 02:40:26,320 Speaker 1: sent here by Bussolini that eventually yeah, one of the 2830 02:40:26,600 --> 02:40:28,840 Speaker 1: like one of the I guess you'd call it the 2831 02:40:28,879 --> 02:40:33,120 Speaker 1: second wave of the upraising in Chicago was a bunch 2832 02:40:33,200 --> 02:40:37,640 Speaker 1: of people, like the enormous numbers of people throwing things 2833 02:40:37,680 --> 02:40:40,400 Speaker 1: at cops who were attempting to defend the statue. And 2834 02:40:40,720 --> 02:40:43,480 Speaker 1: this was like a like the Italian like American like 2835 02:40:43,520 --> 02:40:45,880 Speaker 1: the right wing of it got like extremely mad about this, 2836 02:40:47,040 --> 02:40:51,119 Speaker 1: and there was all this sort of you know, there's 2837 02:40:51,120 --> 02:40:57,320 Speaker 1: all the sort of tension between between these these different Yeah, 2838 02:40:57,600 --> 02:41:01,400 Speaker 1: and some of that comes back to like also um, 2839 02:41:02,520 --> 02:41:06,080 Speaker 1: the construction of of the Inner States. Right, So like 2840 02:41:06,200 --> 02:41:09,000 Speaker 1: in the I don't know when they started building the 2841 02:41:09,080 --> 02:41:11,640 Speaker 1: highways down by u C. Is like in the fifties 2842 02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:14,920 Speaker 1: or the sixties, right, you had this like traditional Italian 2843 02:41:14,959 --> 02:41:19,560 Speaker 1: American community down there by University of Illinois Chicago and 2844 02:41:19,680 --> 02:41:24,960 Speaker 1: like on Taylor Street, and then people built the highway 2845 02:41:25,959 --> 02:41:28,160 Speaker 1: and it like funked up a bunch of ships. You know, 2846 02:41:28,640 --> 02:41:31,400 Speaker 1: some people had to sell their homes, you know, some 2847 02:41:31,560 --> 02:41:34,480 Speaker 1: their traditional neighborhood was like destroyed all of these things, 2848 02:41:35,000 --> 02:41:40,160 Speaker 1: and then this university is built and that coincides with that, 2849 02:41:41,280 --> 02:41:43,200 Speaker 1: and so you end up getting a lot of like 2850 02:41:43,920 --> 02:41:50,640 Speaker 1: old school racist Italian getting piste at the students and 2851 02:41:50,720 --> 02:41:53,959 Speaker 1: at the school and everything in the aftermath. And it's 2852 02:41:54,000 --> 02:41:56,680 Speaker 1: a really really multicultural school. I don't know if you're 2853 02:41:56,680 --> 02:42:01,000 Speaker 1: familiar with you I see, but it's like, yeah, so 2854 02:42:01,560 --> 02:42:05,800 Speaker 1: do I see, has like one of the largest immigrant 2855 02:42:06,360 --> 02:42:10,840 Speaker 1: student population student bodies like in the country. Um, it's 2856 02:42:10,879 --> 02:42:13,720 Speaker 1: just a very very diverse school. I'm pretty sure white 2857 02:42:13,760 --> 02:42:16,480 Speaker 1: people are actually a minority if you look at like 2858 02:42:16,560 --> 02:42:20,840 Speaker 1: the demographics of just like how people identify in student surveys. 2859 02:42:21,680 --> 02:42:24,840 Speaker 1: U i S is the University of Illinois and Chicago. Yeah, 2860 02:42:24,879 --> 02:42:28,160 Speaker 1: it's a one of the big universities in the city. Yeah, 2861 02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:32,320 Speaker 1: just for the non Chicago wins. Yeah not yeah, different, 2862 02:42:32,640 --> 02:42:36,840 Speaker 1: there's a different one, University of Chicago that's like I 2863 02:42:36,920 --> 02:42:43,360 Speaker 1: went to. They've got their whole thing going on because 2864 02:42:43,720 --> 02:42:46,760 Speaker 1: their campus police force is one of the largest private 2865 02:42:46,800 --> 02:42:48,800 Speaker 1: police forces in the world. Yeah, and you know, I 2866 02:42:48,840 --> 02:42:50,480 Speaker 1: guess we can talking about that a little bit because 2867 02:42:50,520 --> 02:42:53,400 Speaker 1: that's this sort of like it's kind of horrible bind 2868 02:42:53,640 --> 02:42:56,400 Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, so it's that that police force 2869 02:42:56,480 --> 02:42:57,959 Speaker 1: is one of the largest police forces in the world. 2870 02:42:58,080 --> 02:43:00,720 Speaker 1: It has shot students, it has shot people who are 2871 02:43:00,800 --> 02:43:04,760 Speaker 1: not students. It does a bunch of horrible things. But 2872 02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:07,440 Speaker 1: then you know, some you're there's there's this kind of trap, 2873 02:43:07,680 --> 02:43:09,520 Speaker 1: right because like one of one of the things that 2874 02:43:09,560 --> 02:43:11,720 Speaker 1: happens is like, well, okay, so you get rid of 2875 02:43:11,760 --> 02:43:13,680 Speaker 1: the u cp D, right, and then then you know, okay, 2876 02:43:13,720 --> 02:43:15,600 Speaker 1: so they're gonna bring the Chicago Police Apartment in and 2877 02:43:15,640 --> 02:43:19,520 Speaker 1: it's like the Chico Police Department are like one of 2878 02:43:19,560 --> 02:43:22,800 Speaker 1: the few institutions in the world that's worse than like 2879 02:43:22,920 --> 02:43:26,240 Speaker 1: the regular UCPD, and it's you know, and and that 2880 02:43:26,360 --> 02:43:27,440 Speaker 1: was that was one of the things that that was 2881 02:43:27,480 --> 02:43:32,160 Speaker 1: really inspiring. Um was just yeah, the way that the 2882 02:43:32,240 --> 02:43:37,040 Speaker 1: abolished the Chicago Police Department like movement was sort of 2883 02:43:37,160 --> 02:43:40,520 Speaker 1: like unfolded in this broader just this broader potential just 2884 02:43:40,560 --> 02:43:43,720 Speaker 1: abolished chiccoo, the Chicago police in general. But it's this 2885 02:43:43,840 --> 02:43:45,560 Speaker 1: weird thing where it's like you have these you have 2886 02:43:45,600 --> 02:43:48,959 Speaker 1: these occupation zones and it's like that that that part 2887 02:43:49,040 --> 02:43:50,720 Speaker 1: of the South Side and then the other the other 2888 02:43:50,760 --> 02:43:53,720 Speaker 1: thing I think that people don't understand about Chicago Police 2889 02:43:53,720 --> 02:43:57,720 Speaker 1: Department is that they have an absolutely enormous range that 2890 02:43:57,800 --> 02:44:00,520 Speaker 1: they patrol. Right that that doesn't include it's way it 2891 02:44:00,520 --> 02:44:02,680 Speaker 1: goes way off campus like they have. They have an 2892 02:44:02,680 --> 02:44:06,040 Speaker 1: absolutely enormous range of things they conclude and they do 2893 02:44:06,200 --> 02:44:09,600 Speaker 1: things like, uh, you know, they'll they'll just like like 2894 02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:12,800 Speaker 1: like locked down the entire campus and they'll just do 2895 02:44:12,959 --> 02:44:15,320 Speaker 1: this just happen because there they'll be like chasing someone 2896 02:44:15,440 --> 02:44:17,520 Speaker 1: who like like one of one of the one of 2897 02:44:17,560 --> 02:44:20,440 Speaker 1: the times while I was there, someone like they like 2898 02:44:20,680 --> 02:44:24,000 Speaker 1: stolen something from like a video game store, and the 2899 02:44:24,080 --> 02:44:27,000 Speaker 1: whole campus got locked down, like the cops are screaming 2900 02:44:27,000 --> 02:44:30,360 Speaker 1: and everyone to stay in the buildings, like and they 2901 02:44:30,480 --> 02:44:32,879 Speaker 1: just like, you know, they had this like enormous numbers 2902 02:44:32,920 --> 02:44:35,800 Speaker 1: of cops just sort of like swarmed through the entire 2903 02:44:36,640 --> 02:44:39,880 Speaker 1: the entire campus for like an hour. And this is 2904 02:44:40,000 --> 02:44:42,360 Speaker 1: just like happens. I mean, there's cops everywhere. They just 2905 02:44:42,440 --> 02:44:46,480 Speaker 1: they do stuff like that, and there's this whole you know, 2906 02:44:46,520 --> 02:44:48,080 Speaker 1: and and but this is one of the other things 2907 02:44:48,120 --> 02:44:51,960 Speaker 1: where you get these tensions because so you Chicago, the 2908 02:44:52,040 --> 02:44:56,320 Speaker 1: University of Chicago also has like it's not as large, 2909 02:44:56,360 --> 02:44:58,840 Speaker 1: but also has like a like it also has like 2910 02:44:58,879 --> 02:45:04,320 Speaker 1: a pretty large international student immigrant like population. And there 2911 02:45:04,440 --> 02:45:07,320 Speaker 1: was this uh there was there was there was a 2912 02:45:07,400 --> 02:45:09,440 Speaker 1: Chinese national student who got shot, who got shot a 2913 02:45:09,600 --> 02:45:13,680 Speaker 1: robbery last year, and that was a huge I think 2914 02:45:13,720 --> 02:45:18,960 Speaker 1: that was last year. Yeah that was yeah, it wasn't yeah, yeah, 2915 02:45:19,000 --> 02:45:20,600 Speaker 1: And that turned into a huge thing where you had 2916 02:45:20,640 --> 02:45:22,959 Speaker 1: these sudden you know, because we had the anti police protests, 2917 02:45:23,360 --> 02:45:25,440 Speaker 1: but then suddenly there was this huge wing of like 2918 02:45:26,160 --> 02:45:28,360 Speaker 1: basically the right wing faculty, a bunch of just like 2919 02:45:28,440 --> 02:45:35,560 Speaker 1: absolutely reactionary, like extremely rich CCP scions and like this 2920 02:45:35,760 --> 02:45:39,640 Speaker 1: this sort of like Ducleus of of the like like 2921 02:45:39,840 --> 02:45:41,720 Speaker 1: people like people in the right wing law faculty, like 2922 02:45:41,800 --> 02:45:44,640 Speaker 1: the ECON people, who suddenly had this like giant thing 2923 02:45:44,720 --> 02:45:46,400 Speaker 1: that was like it was, it was. It was a 2924 02:45:46,440 --> 02:45:49,840 Speaker 1: sort of microcosm of of of the broader sort of 2925 02:45:49,959 --> 02:45:53,960 Speaker 1: like turn against the anti police movements by using crime. 2926 02:45:54,000 --> 02:45:55,000 Speaker 1: And they had this whole thing that we need to 2927 02:45:55,080 --> 02:45:57,440 Speaker 1: keep the campus safe and they're like, oh, we need 2928 02:45:57,480 --> 02:45:59,360 Speaker 1: to give you the ucp D the ability to lead 2929 02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:00,960 Speaker 1: to to go off of campus, which you know they 2930 02:46:01,000 --> 02:46:02,560 Speaker 1: already have there, Like we need to get the more money, 2931 02:46:02,600 --> 02:46:05,080 Speaker 1: we need to have more cops everywhere, and it was 2932 02:46:05,160 --> 02:46:08,400 Speaker 1: just and it's it's just this sort of like you 2933 02:46:08,480 --> 02:46:10,800 Speaker 1: get this horrible, horrible sort of pendulum effect where like 2934 02:46:11,320 --> 02:46:14,840 Speaker 1: you get this violence and then you know, people like 2935 02:46:15,560 --> 02:46:19,080 Speaker 1: the like the the rights response to that violence is 2936 02:46:19,120 --> 02:46:21,199 Speaker 1: just to create is you know, just descending more cops 2937 02:46:21,320 --> 02:46:23,640 Speaker 1: to create more violence, and it just keeps escalating and 2938 02:46:23,720 --> 02:46:26,000 Speaker 1: keep escalating, and it's it's and then you know, and 2939 02:46:26,120 --> 02:46:28,120 Speaker 1: then there's there's a sort of dynamic of this right 2940 02:46:28,200 --> 02:46:32,400 Speaker 1: where rich students at the University of Chicago. And this 2941 02:46:32,520 --> 02:46:34,920 Speaker 1: is so some extent this is it's mostly a class 2942 02:46:35,000 --> 02:46:38,360 Speaker 1: embraced thing, but it's not entirely. But like people who 2943 02:46:38,440 --> 02:46:42,560 Speaker 1: go there just like have this like incredible fear of 2944 02:46:42,680 --> 02:46:45,360 Speaker 1: literally everyone around them. It's like they turned to many cops. 2945 02:46:46,320 --> 02:46:49,320 Speaker 1: Like there are people who are screaming about how like 2946 02:46:49,560 --> 02:46:52,120 Speaker 1: just the red line is not safe at night. And 2947 02:46:52,160 --> 02:46:55,560 Speaker 1: I was like I have literally like I have walked 2948 02:46:55,680 --> 02:46:58,360 Speaker 1: like thirty blocks back home at two in the morning 2949 02:46:58,440 --> 02:47:01,640 Speaker 1: and been completely fine. Like you guys are just cowards, 2950 02:47:02,000 --> 02:47:04,040 Speaker 1: but and you know your your cowards and extreme basis, 2951 02:47:04,120 --> 02:47:05,760 Speaker 1: but like yeah, like all all of these sort of 2952 02:47:05,800 --> 02:47:08,120 Speaker 1: factors blend together and you get these you get these 2953 02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:11,440 Speaker 1: coalitions of of these these right wing pro police people 2954 02:47:11,480 --> 02:47:14,080 Speaker 1: who want to just not not just like you know, 2955 02:47:14,280 --> 02:47:16,240 Speaker 1: not not just support the police, but want to continue 2956 02:47:16,280 --> 02:47:18,120 Speaker 1: to expand it so they can feel safe. And it's 2957 02:47:18,160 --> 02:47:21,120 Speaker 1: like you're not, you're not even in danger, but they 2958 02:47:21,160 --> 02:47:22,760 Speaker 1: have they have they have the same sort of like 2959 02:47:23,720 --> 02:47:26,080 Speaker 1: this whole town is trying to kill us, like racist 2960 02:47:26,120 --> 02:47:28,200 Speaker 1: cop rand mentality, and yeah, sorry, this is this is 2961 02:47:28,280 --> 02:47:31,039 Speaker 1: this is this has been being upset about this because 2962 02:47:32,920 --> 02:47:35,840 Speaker 1: I feel you and it's like it's and but it 2963 02:47:36,200 --> 02:47:39,080 Speaker 1: relates back to kind of like campus policing in general 2964 02:47:39,200 --> 02:47:42,520 Speaker 1: and kind of why it exists, which is that a 2965 02:47:42,600 --> 02:47:45,360 Speaker 1: lot of colleges, I mean not all of them, It 2966 02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:48,480 Speaker 1: depends on where you are, but like some colleges, especially 2967 02:47:48,680 --> 02:47:52,320 Speaker 1: in like large urban areas, you know, are we're built 2968 02:47:52,640 --> 02:47:58,600 Speaker 1: in the middle of like largely black communities Chicago to 2969 02:47:58,640 --> 02:48:02,400 Speaker 1: a t. Yeah, and because the land wish cheaper to buy, 2970 02:48:03,360 --> 02:48:06,360 Speaker 1: you know, there are reasons why necessarily, like they're built 2971 02:48:06,400 --> 02:48:10,240 Speaker 1: in these spaces, and so the campus police departments function 2972 02:48:10,680 --> 02:48:15,119 Speaker 1: as just a way to like keep the students isolated 2973 02:48:15,480 --> 02:48:19,800 Speaker 1: from the community. Like it's making a community within a community. 2974 02:48:19,840 --> 02:48:24,279 Speaker 1: It's making this little enclave, and then of course people 2975 02:48:24,400 --> 02:48:27,760 Speaker 1: are are then going to view anyone outside of that 2976 02:48:27,959 --> 02:48:32,320 Speaker 1: enclave with like racist suspicion. Right, And if you have 2977 02:48:33,440 --> 02:48:36,800 Speaker 1: immigrant students who may or may not be wealthy, it's 2978 02:48:36,840 --> 02:48:39,039 Speaker 1: a punk on where they come from. But you UFC 2979 02:48:39,200 --> 02:48:40,959 Speaker 1: has like a lot of as far as I am aware, 2980 02:48:41,040 --> 02:48:46,400 Speaker 1: like wealthy international students. And they might be coming from 2981 02:48:46,480 --> 02:48:50,120 Speaker 1: countries where like there aren't any black people or there 2982 02:48:50,120 --> 02:48:54,520 Speaker 1: aren't very many. And just because they're they're coming from 2983 02:48:54,760 --> 02:48:58,879 Speaker 1: like this country doesn't necessarily mean that they like our 2984 02:48:59,120 --> 02:49:02,160 Speaker 1: left wing. So they they're coming into these communities, you know, 2985 02:49:02,400 --> 02:49:05,959 Speaker 1: with not a lot of experience, just sort of around 2986 02:49:06,000 --> 02:49:08,480 Speaker 1: people who look different from them, and so they're going 2987 02:49:08,560 --> 02:49:11,480 Speaker 1: to be of course looking to like these police figures 2988 02:49:12,480 --> 02:49:16,840 Speaker 1: than to quote protect them. But but to go back 2989 02:49:16,879 --> 02:49:19,880 Speaker 1: to it, it's like, Okay, well, if you are feeling 2990 02:49:20,000 --> 02:49:25,640 Speaker 1: unsafe on the train at night, for example, why why 2991 02:49:25,800 --> 02:49:31,640 Speaker 1: isn't the train safe? Like why are people using it 2992 02:49:31,800 --> 02:49:35,920 Speaker 1: as you know shelter? Why are people doing drugs on 2993 02:49:35,959 --> 02:49:39,600 Speaker 1: the train? Like why is there violence happening? And that 2994 02:49:39,720 --> 02:49:43,000 Speaker 1: just comes back to again, like we're not actually addressing 2995 02:49:43,040 --> 02:49:48,360 Speaker 1: the route problems by just adding more police. And I 2996 02:49:48,440 --> 02:49:49,880 Speaker 1: will say, like I think, I think again, Like the 2997 02:49:50,480 --> 02:49:53,920 Speaker 1: everything that's happening here is really just the University of Chicago, 2998 02:49:54,400 --> 02:49:59,320 Speaker 1: like is a place to which the world's leadish is transplanted. 2999 02:50:00,120 --> 02:50:04,040 Speaker 1: And you can see this like very clearly along because yeah, 3000 02:50:04,120 --> 02:50:09,320 Speaker 1: like there is the wealth gap between like between poor 3001 02:50:09,320 --> 02:50:12,360 Speaker 1: international students of rich international students is like it's it's 3002 02:50:12,400 --> 02:50:15,400 Speaker 1: the largest single wealth gap in like in this in 3003 02:50:15,440 --> 02:50:20,040 Speaker 1: the entire university. It's it's unbelievable. Um and you know, 3004 02:50:20,160 --> 02:50:21,960 Speaker 1: and you could you could just you can watch it 3005 02:50:22,040 --> 02:50:23,840 Speaker 1: playing down on class lines in a place down other 3006 02:50:23,920 --> 02:50:27,120 Speaker 1: lines right where you have like like you know even 3007 02:50:27,360 --> 02:50:29,400 Speaker 1: like yeah you have like you have both we have 3008 02:50:29,520 --> 02:50:32,080 Speaker 1: students from I don't know, you have students for China, 3009 02:50:32,280 --> 02:50:33,880 Speaker 1: students from Vietnam, and like one of them will be 3010 02:50:33,959 --> 02:50:37,959 Speaker 1: trans and you know it turns yeah, it's like oh hey, 3011 02:50:38,080 --> 02:50:41,960 Speaker 1: look like yeah, like when when when you have like 3012 02:50:42,040 --> 02:50:43,720 Speaker 1: when you have a Chinese trans student, right's like yeah, 3013 02:50:43,720 --> 02:50:48,960 Speaker 1: they're there. They the people who back home had have 3014 02:50:49,160 --> 02:50:55,320 Speaker 1: experienced depression in various ways, are consistently like consistently um 3015 02:50:56,160 --> 02:51:00,120 Speaker 1: or like consistently anti police and consistently like significantly. It's 3016 02:51:00,160 --> 02:51:03,080 Speaker 1: bad about this stuff. It's it's in my experience, it's 3017 02:51:03,080 --> 02:51:05,640 Speaker 1: it's very much. Is just you have this sort of 3018 02:51:05,720 --> 02:51:09,280 Speaker 1: transplanted like you have the short of transplanted eLife and 3019 02:51:09,320 --> 02:51:10,840 Speaker 1: by the countries to come to the Unversity of Chicago 3020 02:51:10,920 --> 02:51:12,720 Speaker 1: so they can you know, study economics and go back 3021 02:51:12,720 --> 02:51:15,240 Speaker 1: to their own countries and like continue to like rob 3022 02:51:15,320 --> 02:51:19,480 Speaker 1: their own populations. And those people are the ones who 3023 02:51:19,560 --> 02:51:22,440 Speaker 1: are doing this stuff. And it's I don't know, it's 3024 02:51:22,760 --> 02:51:26,600 Speaker 1: you see a lot of kind of like this like 3025 02:51:26,720 --> 02:51:31,400 Speaker 1: I think really misguided like anti racism. That's like, well, okay, 3026 02:51:31,440 --> 02:51:33,800 Speaker 1: we have to take the security concerns of of of 3027 02:51:34,000 --> 02:51:37,000 Speaker 1: these these of of Asian people seriously. It's like these 3028 02:51:37,400 --> 02:51:39,960 Speaker 1: are this is this is the Chinese ruling class, this 3029 02:51:40,120 --> 02:51:42,000 Speaker 1: is the this like you don't need to take these 3030 02:51:42,040 --> 02:51:45,440 Speaker 1: people's concerns seriously. They are finatally they're ferocious right wingers 3031 02:51:45,480 --> 02:51:47,440 Speaker 1: who have just read highatt for the first time. Like 3032 02:51:48,080 --> 02:51:51,600 Speaker 1: you guys, these these are these are not the same 3033 02:51:51,720 --> 02:51:54,680 Speaker 1: people as the people who are suffering under the like 3034 02:51:55,280 --> 02:51:58,680 Speaker 1: right right. And we saw that. We saw that too 3035 02:51:58,840 --> 02:52:02,039 Speaker 1: with like the big wave of stop Asian hate protests 3036 02:52:02,120 --> 02:52:06,160 Speaker 1: here last year where we had like this big rally 3037 02:52:06,320 --> 02:52:11,360 Speaker 1: down in Chinatown, UM with like a huge, huge number, 3038 02:52:11,440 --> 02:52:13,680 Speaker 1: like hundreds of people from the community came out and 3039 02:52:14,240 --> 02:52:17,280 Speaker 1: and you had a lot of younger people who very 3040 02:52:17,360 --> 02:52:22,279 Speaker 1: much had like you know, defund the police kind of sentiments. 3041 02:52:23,320 --> 02:52:26,440 Speaker 1: But then you had we had like police representatives speaking 3042 02:52:26,520 --> 02:52:28,840 Speaker 1: at the rally, yeah, about how they were going to 3043 02:52:29,280 --> 02:52:34,440 Speaker 1: to make like Chicago safer for Asian people. It's like 3044 02:52:34,520 --> 02:52:38,760 Speaker 1: this stuff like it makes me so angry, like CPT yeah, no, 3045 02:52:38,920 --> 02:52:41,440 Speaker 1: it was. It was regular CPD Like I I'm Chinese. 3046 02:52:41,480 --> 02:52:45,440 Speaker 1: They almost killed me on campus. Like these people like 3047 02:52:45,560 --> 02:52:48,840 Speaker 1: they're not these these these they they're like the police 3048 02:52:48,879 --> 02:52:50,520 Speaker 1: don't keep us safe. But like you know, there's been this, 3049 02:52:50,640 --> 02:52:53,600 Speaker 1: there's been this incredible weaponization of of the Asian American community. 3050 02:52:53,959 --> 02:52:55,680 Speaker 1: Like you see this, you see this in Chinatown. There's 3051 02:52:55,720 --> 02:52:58,480 Speaker 1: there's been this like that. There's like China Town is 3052 02:52:58,680 --> 02:53:01,240 Speaker 1: like this is different. Even in the last like like 3053 02:53:01,520 --> 02:53:04,200 Speaker 1: three or four years, has turned into this just like 3054 02:53:04,800 --> 02:53:08,760 Speaker 1: like incredibly right wing. I mean it's it's not everyone, 3055 02:53:08,879 --> 02:53:11,040 Speaker 1: but like you see like they're they're like I like 3056 02:53:11,080 --> 02:53:13,400 Speaker 1: there there's there's a there's there's there's a bench in 3057 02:53:13,640 --> 02:53:15,920 Speaker 1: in uh in Chicago in front of the library right 3058 02:53:16,520 --> 02:53:19,280 Speaker 1: that had they have these tables and the tables have 3059 02:53:19,360 --> 02:53:22,000 Speaker 1: an engraved plaque on them that says no loiter ring, 3060 02:53:22,320 --> 02:53:23,720 Speaker 1: and that says we will call the police on you 3061 02:53:23,760 --> 02:53:25,800 Speaker 1: if you loiter. That this is outside of the library. 3062 02:53:27,120 --> 02:53:29,400 Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, there's they have this sort of like 3063 02:53:29,520 --> 02:53:33,120 Speaker 1: in criticis incredibly right wing like anti anti like anti 3064 02:53:33,680 --> 02:53:37,320 Speaker 1: like homeless people campaign that's happening, and it's it's I 3065 02:53:37,360 --> 02:53:39,879 Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's one of just the most depressing 3066 02:53:41,280 --> 02:53:43,520 Speaker 1: things I've seen here because you have, you know, you 3067 02:53:44,040 --> 02:53:45,600 Speaker 1: have the Chamber of Commerce is to sort of like 3068 02:53:46,200 --> 02:53:48,080 Speaker 1: you know as the most powerful political force in a 3069 02:53:48,120 --> 02:53:52,320 Speaker 1: lot of these communities, and like those people's are right 3070 02:53:52,360 --> 02:53:55,560 Speaker 1: wingers and they just they they don't have the same 3071 02:53:55,640 --> 02:53:59,000 Speaker 1: interests as like the rest of the Asia, of of 3072 02:53:59,040 --> 02:54:01,680 Speaker 1: the Asian American community, and you know, and it gets 3073 02:54:01,760 --> 02:54:04,400 Speaker 1: you get this horrible, horrible thing, which is what was 3074 02:54:04,440 --> 02:54:08,040 Speaker 1: happening on these car campus, which is like essentially the 3075 02:54:08,160 --> 02:54:11,400 Speaker 1: right wing like pitting the right wing like just just 3076 02:54:11,640 --> 02:54:15,720 Speaker 1: pitting the like basically basically like pitting Asians against black people. 3077 02:54:16,560 --> 02:54:23,840 Speaker 1: And it's horrible and it and it just comes back 3078 02:54:23,920 --> 02:54:27,280 Speaker 1: to like who who is benefiting from this? Like who 3079 02:54:28,000 --> 02:54:32,840 Speaker 1: when we when we have immigrant communities or non immigrant communities, 3080 02:54:34,600 --> 02:54:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, like being upset with other communities, What are 3081 02:54:40,000 --> 02:54:42,360 Speaker 1: the greater forces here that are like benefiting from that 3082 02:54:42,480 --> 02:54:45,840 Speaker 1: sort of like infighting. And it's always like the fascist 3083 02:54:46,160 --> 02:54:50,240 Speaker 1: coops who who ultimately come out of the top there, 3084 02:54:50,959 --> 02:54:55,200 Speaker 1: because if they can keep the people fighting amongst themselves, 3085 02:54:56,280 --> 02:55:01,119 Speaker 1: or they can stoke prejudice and racism between the people, 3086 02:55:01,560 --> 02:55:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, they can then come in and scoop up resources. 3087 02:55:06,160 --> 02:55:10,440 Speaker 1: And when you look at like a school like University 3088 02:55:10,480 --> 02:55:15,959 Speaker 1: of Chicago, they just have a massive, massive amount of money, right, 3089 02:55:16,120 --> 02:55:21,880 Speaker 1: Like the resources there are just unbelievable. And so of 3090 02:55:22,120 --> 02:55:26,120 Speaker 1: course you're going to have people in the community who 3091 02:55:26,200 --> 02:55:29,640 Speaker 1: are resentful of that, who are upset about that because 3092 02:55:29,800 --> 02:55:35,160 Speaker 1: like they don't have affordable housing, they don't have good jobs, 3093 02:55:35,680 --> 02:55:39,960 Speaker 1: like they're trying to make a living and keep their 3094 02:55:40,040 --> 02:55:46,720 Speaker 1: kids safe. And here's this like university in the middle 3095 02:55:46,760 --> 02:55:50,280 Speaker 1: of their neighborhood with all of this money. And wow, 3096 02:55:50,440 --> 02:55:53,800 Speaker 1: I'm so amazed. I'm just so happy that like somebody's 3097 02:55:54,160 --> 02:55:59,000 Speaker 1: doing construction right now outside my apartment. Thank you for 3098 02:55:59,160 --> 02:56:02,520 Speaker 1: this timing. I'm so glad about him. Um. But but essentially, 3099 02:56:02,680 --> 02:56:07,640 Speaker 1: like you know, you they the students, the students end 3100 02:56:07,720 --> 02:56:10,200 Speaker 1: up being a scapegoat for all of their like all 3101 02:56:10,280 --> 02:56:14,119 Speaker 1: the communities like justified fears about what's going on, Right, 3102 02:56:17,080 --> 02:56:19,560 Speaker 1: they're justified in being upset that they don't have these resources. 3103 02:56:19,600 --> 02:56:23,000 Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily like the individual students. Yeah, and 3104 02:56:23,120 --> 02:56:25,360 Speaker 1: and there there have been a lot of really good 3105 02:56:25,720 --> 02:56:27,600 Speaker 1: Like right right before one of the things that was 3106 02:56:27,640 --> 02:56:31,520 Speaker 1: happening in high part right before I got there, was 3107 02:56:31,600 --> 02:56:35,320 Speaker 1: there is this huge campaign basically there wasn't a level 3108 02:56:35,360 --> 02:56:38,520 Speaker 1: one trauma center like on this outside, and so you know, 3109 02:56:38,560 --> 02:56:41,039 Speaker 1: if you get shot, right, they have to like take 3110 02:56:41,120 --> 02:56:42,680 Speaker 1: you in a helicopter to the north side to a 3111 02:56:42,760 --> 02:56:45,200 Speaker 1: hospital there, and you know in that time, like there's 3112 02:56:45,200 --> 02:56:47,400 Speaker 1: a good chance you're gonna die. And there had there 3113 02:56:47,440 --> 02:56:48,760 Speaker 1: had been one, but it got shut down because it 3114 02:56:48,760 --> 02:56:51,160 Speaker 1: wasn't making any money. And so you know, there was 3115 02:56:51,200 --> 02:56:55,080 Speaker 1: this huge, uh community student campaign to like to force 3116 02:56:55,160 --> 02:56:56,920 Speaker 1: the university to open one of these trauma centers. And 3117 02:56:57,000 --> 02:56:59,320 Speaker 1: so I think and I think it's important that like 3118 02:57:00,240 --> 02:57:04,440 Speaker 1: we don't have to fight each other like that that's 3119 02:57:04,480 --> 02:57:06,280 Speaker 1: not a thing that you know, Like yeah, like I 3120 02:57:06,360 --> 02:57:11,720 Speaker 1: think I think like that university, I I don't think 3121 02:57:11,720 --> 02:57:14,000 Speaker 1: it should continue to exist. I think at the very 3122 02:57:14,120 --> 02:57:17,600 Speaker 1: least it should be like taking out of the community control. 3123 02:57:17,760 --> 02:57:20,680 Speaker 1: But who but like yeah, like for the people who 3124 02:57:20,720 --> 02:57:22,680 Speaker 1: are there, and you know, I think like for for 3125 02:57:22,760 --> 02:57:25,320 Speaker 1: the Asian Americans listening to this, and for for for 3126 02:57:25,360 --> 02:57:28,360 Speaker 1: people who are students like you, you do not have 3127 02:57:28,600 --> 02:57:30,800 Speaker 1: to be the weapon of the cops. You don't. You 3128 02:57:30,879 --> 02:57:33,720 Speaker 1: can you can work together and and and when you 3129 02:57:33,879 --> 02:57:36,200 Speaker 1: do that, you can win and you can win. You 3130 02:57:36,240 --> 02:57:41,240 Speaker 1: can win like really incredibly tangible games for the community, 3131 02:57:41,240 --> 02:57:44,720 Speaker 1: and you can save people's lives, you know it also 3132 02:57:45,520 --> 02:57:48,960 Speaker 1: outside of campus, same deal with Chicago police, right, Like, 3133 02:57:49,760 --> 02:57:54,320 Speaker 1: we don't need to have the Eastern European communities fighting 3134 02:57:54,480 --> 02:57:58,320 Speaker 1: the Latino communities fighting the Black communities. Like we don't 3135 02:57:58,320 --> 02:58:03,320 Speaker 1: need to have these like all of these communities just 3136 02:58:03,640 --> 02:58:06,640 Speaker 1: like fighting each other instead of like the actual oppressive 3137 02:58:06,720 --> 02:58:13,800 Speaker 1: forces at the top. Um. But you know, right now 3138 02:58:13,920 --> 02:58:17,560 Speaker 1: we're at like this kind of I don't know, I 3139 02:58:17,800 --> 02:58:22,880 Speaker 1: guess tipping point. I think where either people start to 3140 02:58:23,000 --> 02:58:28,400 Speaker 1: show solidarity or we're fucked. Like there are massive not 3141 02:58:28,600 --> 02:58:32,320 Speaker 1: to get like super existential with you, but like there 3142 02:58:32,360 --> 02:58:39,000 Speaker 1: are massive, massive forces right now, right wing forces trying 3143 02:58:39,120 --> 02:58:44,240 Speaker 1: to benefit off of all of this factionalization, and as 3144 02:58:44,320 --> 02:58:52,080 Speaker 1: we see tanks rolling into Ukraine, like that's this is 3145 02:58:52,120 --> 02:58:56,480 Speaker 1: a global phenomenon. It's not just happening at home. It's 3146 02:58:56,520 --> 02:59:01,880 Speaker 1: happening everywhere, and like we don't have a lot of 3147 02:59:02,040 --> 02:59:07,840 Speaker 1: time left to stop this and to bring it back 3148 02:59:07,920 --> 02:59:13,439 Speaker 1: to this like far right trucker foe trucker convoy show 3149 02:59:13,600 --> 02:59:17,280 Speaker 1: that's about to happen and then roll into roll into 3150 02:59:17,360 --> 02:59:22,520 Speaker 1: our capital. Like I'm just struck by the timing of 3151 02:59:22,600 --> 02:59:24,760 Speaker 1: it all. And I'm certainly not going to be like 3152 02:59:25,959 --> 02:59:28,840 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theorist about it and be like, well putin 3153 02:59:29,080 --> 02:59:34,959 Speaker 1: Is has planned this all happened at the same time. Um, 3154 02:59:36,000 --> 02:59:39,720 Speaker 1: but I do think that whether or not it's like 3155 02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:44,240 Speaker 1: plans happen at the same time, it's absolutely going to 3156 02:59:44,520 --> 02:59:50,480 Speaker 1: benefit these people that you know this is happening right now, 3157 02:59:51,320 --> 02:59:54,240 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it's It's the same thing with with 3158 02:59:54,680 --> 02:59:59,560 Speaker 1: just horrific anti trans bill said the anti transport I 3159 02:59:59,680 --> 03:00:05,160 Speaker 1: not buil but in anti transide government action, I guess 3160 03:00:05,400 --> 03:00:08,760 Speaker 1: is the correct term in in that's happening in Texas 3161 03:00:08,879 --> 03:00:15,360 Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, it's uh, you know, like people people 3162 03:00:15,440 --> 03:00:19,200 Speaker 1: draw comparisons to to the Third Roich In to Nazi 3163 03:00:19,280 --> 03:00:23,600 Speaker 1: Germany and them banning like you know, homosexual dance parties 3164 03:00:23,800 --> 03:00:26,039 Speaker 1: and things like that. You know, like they didn't start 3165 03:00:26,080 --> 03:00:28,920 Speaker 1: out saying we want to kill all the Jews. Like 3166 03:00:29,120 --> 03:00:31,440 Speaker 1: that's not like it doesn't you don't start that way, 3167 03:00:32,320 --> 03:00:35,680 Speaker 1: you make you would do the smaller attacks first, you 3168 03:00:35,840 --> 03:00:38,760 Speaker 1: build up to it, You take power inch by inch 3169 03:00:39,000 --> 03:00:43,960 Speaker 1: until like nobody can stop you. Yeah, but I think 3170 03:00:44,000 --> 03:00:49,520 Speaker 1: I think you know, there's there there's an important note here, though, 3171 03:00:49,680 --> 03:00:52,520 Speaker 1: which is that, like it's it's very easy to sort 3172 03:00:52,560 --> 03:00:54,760 Speaker 1: of especially in times like this, to sort of just 3173 03:00:55,160 --> 03:00:58,960 Speaker 1: like be be in a place where it just it 3174 03:00:59,000 --> 03:01:00,560 Speaker 1: looks like history is just want sing go over you, 3175 03:01:00,959 --> 03:01:03,120 Speaker 1: right that you know, we're we're we're bound by these 3176 03:01:03,120 --> 03:01:07,880 Speaker 1: sort of irresistible powers and forces, and that's not true. 3177 03:01:09,640 --> 03:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Like these these these these kinds of fascist movements can 3178 03:01:12,879 --> 03:01:15,199 Speaker 1: be defeated, these kinds of militarist movements can be defeated, 3179 03:01:16,200 --> 03:01:19,160 Speaker 1: but they they they they they can only be defeated 3180 03:01:19,800 --> 03:01:24,120 Speaker 1: when we actually take our place as the subjects of history, right, 3181 03:01:24,280 --> 03:01:26,280 Speaker 1: Like we we we are that we are the people who, 3182 03:01:26,400 --> 03:01:30,440 Speaker 1: through our actions, create history. And you know when we 3183 03:01:30,680 --> 03:01:32,720 Speaker 1: also are the people who create the world we see 3184 03:01:32,760 --> 03:01:36,080 Speaker 1: around us. But you know, as David Graby was incredibly 3185 03:01:36,120 --> 03:01:37,640 Speaker 1: fond of saying, rights like we we are the people 3186 03:01:37,640 --> 03:01:40,280 Speaker 1: who create the world around us, and that means that 3187 03:01:40,440 --> 03:01:44,400 Speaker 1: we can it can be otherwise. And you know, when 3188 03:01:44,760 --> 03:01:49,640 Speaker 1: when we essentially like when we when we reclaim our 3189 03:01:49,920 --> 03:01:51,880 Speaker 1: you know, our our status is subjects or status is 3190 03:01:52,000 --> 03:01:56,000 Speaker 1: human beings are status as the people of which history 3191 03:01:56,080 --> 03:01:58,800 Speaker 1: is composed of. And we move we can stop these 3192 03:01:58,840 --> 03:02:02,080 Speaker 1: things like they're they're there, do not have to be 3193 03:02:02,640 --> 03:02:05,039 Speaker 1: another like there don't have to be more Nazis, they 3194 03:02:05,080 --> 03:02:06,680 Speaker 1: don't have to be more genocience. You don't have to 3195 03:02:06,720 --> 03:02:10,080 Speaker 1: be more worse. We can stop them. We just have 3196 03:02:10,240 --> 03:02:15,520 Speaker 1: to fight, right. I don't disagree with that. I think 3197 03:02:15,720 --> 03:02:18,760 Speaker 1: I think it's completely true. I guess I'm just I 3198 03:02:18,760 --> 03:02:21,760 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe I'm like a dumer. I don't know. 3199 03:02:23,600 --> 03:02:27,960 Speaker 1: It's really hard right now to kind of see I 3200 03:02:28,000 --> 03:02:34,000 Speaker 1: guess sort of mass resistance forming in the US specifically 3201 03:02:34,800 --> 03:02:39,120 Speaker 1: just because of the way the pandemic has wrecked us, 3202 03:02:40,640 --> 03:02:46,320 Speaker 1: and I feel like people are I mean, people are 3203 03:02:46,360 --> 03:02:50,320 Speaker 1: just checked out, right, Like they're exhausted, they're broke. I 3204 03:02:50,720 --> 03:02:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, a million people have died because of because 3205 03:02:54,320 --> 03:02:59,560 Speaker 1: of the government's just complete lack of adequate handling of COVID, 3206 03:02:59,640 --> 03:03:03,680 Speaker 1: and so I completely agree that like this isn't inevitable, 3207 03:03:03,760 --> 03:03:09,040 Speaker 1: like we can stop this. At the same time, I 3208 03:03:09,200 --> 03:03:12,800 Speaker 1: just I don't know what it's going to take for 3209 03:03:13,040 --> 03:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Americans like as an entity to actually stand up and 3210 03:03:19,200 --> 03:03:23,280 Speaker 1: fight this. And I'm not blaming individual people because it's 3211 03:03:23,320 --> 03:03:25,800 Speaker 1: like all the reasons for people being exhausted and checked 3212 03:03:25,840 --> 03:03:29,960 Speaker 1: out are like also by design, right, because of course, 3213 03:03:30,120 --> 03:03:34,440 Speaker 1: like if we keep people exhausted and checked out, then 3214 03:03:35,000 --> 03:03:38,400 Speaker 1: the oligarchs at the top like can continue to like 3215 03:03:38,600 --> 03:03:43,040 Speaker 1: loot society. Yeah, I mean I think I'm sort of 3216 03:03:43,160 --> 03:03:45,320 Speaker 1: less sang when on that, just because, like you know, 3217 03:03:45,360 --> 03:03:48,200 Speaker 1: because I remember, this is the same thing that like 3218 03:03:48,320 --> 03:03:52,959 Speaker 1: everyone said right before the uprising, like everyone was checked out. 3219 03:03:53,000 --> 03:03:56,279 Speaker 1: Everyone was sort of like you know, like the pandemic 3220 03:03:56,320 --> 03:03:58,920 Speaker 1: had just started. Everyone there's this like general consensus that 3221 03:03:59,000 --> 03:04:02,200 Speaker 1: like mass action was in visible, and then you know, 3222 03:04:02,560 --> 03:04:05,040 Speaker 1: like two days later, they burned down they burned down 3223 03:04:05,080 --> 03:04:08,520 Speaker 1: a police station and like deluding the American Mile, and 3224 03:04:08,879 --> 03:04:14,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's like it's these these these things, 3225 03:04:14,720 --> 03:04:22,040 Speaker 1: these things like you know, every like the the people 3226 03:04:22,120 --> 03:04:25,560 Speaker 1: who are in some sense the most in tune with 3227 03:04:26,280 --> 03:04:31,400 Speaker 1: like what is happening, it'll often tend to be the 3228 03:04:31,440 --> 03:04:34,960 Speaker 1: people who are most shocked by when when these kinds 3229 03:04:35,000 --> 03:04:38,760 Speaker 1: of things just emerge seemingly out of nowhere. And so 3230 03:04:39,720 --> 03:04:45,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think, I think, I think we 3231 03:04:45,720 --> 03:04:50,039 Speaker 1: can't know what exactly will set off the next wave, 3232 03:04:50,160 --> 03:04:52,080 Speaker 1: but I but I think it's a safe bet there 3233 03:04:52,120 --> 03:04:56,360 Speaker 1: will be another one because there always is. Right, We've 3234 03:04:56,600 --> 03:04:59,080 Speaker 1: never you know, we we have yet to hit a 3235 03:04:59,160 --> 03:05:02,840 Speaker 1: point so bad that people stop fighting like ever in history, 3236 03:05:03,120 --> 03:05:06,960 Speaker 1: so oh for sure. Yeah. And and that's the long 3237 03:05:07,200 --> 03:05:10,520 Speaker 1: arc of history too, is it's like people have always 3238 03:05:11,320 --> 03:05:16,880 Speaker 1: been fighting for their liberations in some way. And if 3239 03:05:16,959 --> 03:05:20,480 Speaker 1: you look at the longer story, you know, there might 3240 03:05:20,600 --> 03:05:27,000 Speaker 1: be very long periods of darkness and repression and collapse, 3241 03:05:28,360 --> 03:05:36,279 Speaker 1: and then people emerge from that and new societies emerge, 3242 03:05:36,800 --> 03:05:39,240 Speaker 1: new ways of thinking all of that. And I think 3243 03:05:40,480 --> 03:05:45,200 Speaker 1: where we're at now, like at this moment, there are 3244 03:05:45,280 --> 03:05:51,560 Speaker 1: certainly small ways that people can resist and ways that 3245 03:05:51,720 --> 03:05:54,400 Speaker 1: we like we have to focus on like our immediate 3246 03:05:54,520 --> 03:05:58,120 Speaker 1: communities too. You know, it's so easy to get to 3247 03:05:58,240 --> 03:06:01,080 Speaker 1: feel helpless when you like you look at things on 3248 03:06:01,200 --> 03:06:04,119 Speaker 1: such a grand scale. Because of course, like we can't 3249 03:06:04,160 --> 03:06:06,400 Speaker 1: all just like run into Ukraine right now and like 3250 03:06:06,520 --> 03:06:11,040 Speaker 1: stop putin like there's there's really not a lot we 3251 03:06:11,160 --> 03:06:13,840 Speaker 1: can do when it comes to like things like that. 3252 03:06:15,040 --> 03:06:18,560 Speaker 1: But we can like take care of our friends. We 3253 03:06:18,640 --> 03:06:22,200 Speaker 1: can like make sure that the people immediately around us 3254 03:06:22,480 --> 03:06:26,200 Speaker 1: like have what they need. We can like check in on, 3255 03:06:26,360 --> 03:06:30,640 Speaker 1: like you know, our on house neighbors. We can like 3256 03:06:33,360 --> 03:06:35,600 Speaker 1: take you know, some people here in Chicago are are 3257 03:06:35,680 --> 03:06:39,600 Speaker 1: prepping to like take in Ukrainian refugees, for example, right now. 3258 03:06:40,480 --> 03:06:42,760 Speaker 1: And and that's like the sort of action that like 3259 03:06:43,080 --> 03:06:50,440 Speaker 1: is definitely going to be needed. Um. And you know, 3260 03:06:50,600 --> 03:06:53,960 Speaker 1: like when you look at the story of like something 3261 03:06:54,080 --> 03:06:59,120 Speaker 1: as as horrible and just like awful as a holocaust, 3262 03:06:59,280 --> 03:07:01,960 Speaker 1: like of course, are all all these like small stories 3263 03:07:02,040 --> 03:07:06,600 Speaker 1: of like people who like sheltered, people who were who 3264 03:07:06,640 --> 03:07:10,440 Speaker 1: are being sought out, And you know, there were there 3265 03:07:10,440 --> 03:07:13,200 Speaker 1: were all these different kinds of resistance movements in Germany 3266 03:07:13,280 --> 03:07:18,960 Speaker 1: and in Poland. Um. And it's not just about like 3267 03:07:19,600 --> 03:07:22,960 Speaker 1: all the people that that Hitler killed. It is also 3268 03:07:23,000 --> 03:07:26,040 Speaker 1: about all the people that like we're that people managed 3269 03:07:26,080 --> 03:07:31,880 Speaker 1: to save, you know, And it is also like I 3270 03:07:31,920 --> 03:07:34,560 Speaker 1: don't know we we in America especially, it's like we 3271 03:07:34,640 --> 03:07:37,160 Speaker 1: gotta get away from the Hitler comparisons, which I know 3272 03:07:37,240 --> 03:07:41,440 Speaker 1: I just like just made, but like it's it's you know, 3273 03:07:41,720 --> 03:07:45,119 Speaker 1: like don't get me wrong, Like there's obviously like plenty 3274 03:07:45,200 --> 03:07:47,879 Speaker 1: of parallels and and it's important to be like students 3275 03:07:47,959 --> 03:07:51,840 Speaker 1: of history and like understand what's going on and everything, 3276 03:07:52,000 --> 03:07:57,520 Speaker 1: but like we don't. What we're seeing is like we're 3277 03:07:57,560 --> 03:07:59,920 Speaker 1: going to see a kind of fascism that is uni 3278 03:08:00,200 --> 03:08:05,000 Speaker 1: to our era, right, Like I don't know that Trump 3279 03:08:05,120 --> 03:08:07,080 Speaker 1: is going to come out and call for like outright 3280 03:08:07,160 --> 03:08:10,520 Speaker 1: genocide and like you know, build build death came or 3281 03:08:10,600 --> 03:08:13,000 Speaker 1: like Rhonda Santis is going to get elected and like 3282 03:08:13,120 --> 03:08:17,320 Speaker 1: build death camps. Like it's going to look different than 3283 03:08:17,400 --> 03:08:19,760 Speaker 1: it has in the past, even if like some of 3284 03:08:19,840 --> 03:08:24,119 Speaker 1: the phenomenon are similar. So what we're looking at instead 3285 03:08:24,280 --> 03:08:26,480 Speaker 1: is like, especially with climate change, we're looking at a 3286 03:08:26,560 --> 03:08:32,560 Speaker 1: lot of controls over borders. And obviously some of that 3287 03:08:32,720 --> 03:08:34,760 Speaker 1: is like what's happening in Europe right now too, but 3288 03:08:35,520 --> 03:08:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, people are going to be looking to control 3289 03:08:38,160 --> 03:08:42,680 Speaker 1: resources like water, oil, land as we know that they're 3290 03:08:42,760 --> 03:08:47,440 Speaker 1: like running out. And so this this sentiment against like 3291 03:08:47,600 --> 03:08:52,440 Speaker 1: immigrants especially, you know, that's something that is going to 3292 03:08:52,600 --> 03:08:55,720 Speaker 1: just keep getting worse. And so I think it makes 3293 03:08:55,760 --> 03:09:01,280 Speaker 1: it harder for people to I guess recognize that things 3294 03:09:01,320 --> 03:09:06,119 Speaker 1: are as bad as they were, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, 3295 03:09:07,280 --> 03:09:13,960 Speaker 1: And ultimately, like it's just yeah, mass resistance is the 3296 03:09:14,040 --> 03:09:19,680 Speaker 1: only way out, right, Like, the people have to resist 3297 03:09:19,800 --> 03:09:23,680 Speaker 1: and we can't keep waiting for like Joe Biden or 3298 03:09:24,320 --> 03:09:29,680 Speaker 1: or anyone to be our political savior. Yeah. I think 3299 03:09:29,760 --> 03:09:31,720 Speaker 1: I think that's a that's that's a pretty good note 3300 03:09:31,720 --> 03:09:34,320 Speaker 1: to end on. Yeah, thank you, thank you for joining us. 3301 03:09:34,520 --> 03:09:36,920 Speaker 1: Do you have stuff that you want to plug? Um, 3302 03:09:37,360 --> 03:09:41,520 Speaker 1: not at the moment. No, I mean I think, uh, 3303 03:09:43,000 --> 03:09:47,360 Speaker 1: I guess our Twitter account, But that's about it. Okay. Yeah, Well, 3304 03:09:47,680 --> 03:09:49,760 Speaker 1: this this has been this has been another episode if 3305 03:09:49,800 --> 03:09:52,000 Speaker 1: we could happen here. You can find us on Twitter 3306 03:09:52,200 --> 03:09:56,080 Speaker 1: and Instagram at happen here. Pot. Uh, you can find 3307 03:09:56,160 --> 03:09:58,920 Speaker 1: stuff at the Cool Zone with a website. Go there. 3308 03:09:59,040 --> 03:10:01,480 Speaker 1: Stop asking me for horses. They're they're on the website. 3309 03:10:01,520 --> 03:10:05,760 Speaker 1: They get out again uploaded. Uh. Yeah, So Yeah, thank 3310 03:10:05,800 --> 03:10:15,160 Speaker 1: thank you once again for twining us. Hey, We'll be 3311 03:10:15,240 --> 03:10:18,600 Speaker 1: back Monday with more episodes every week from now until 3312 03:10:18,640 --> 03:10:21,080 Speaker 1: the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen Here 3313 03:10:21,200 --> 03:10:23,800 Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts 3314 03:10:23,800 --> 03:10:26,400 Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media 3315 03:10:26,480 --> 03:10:28,280 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart 3316 03:10:28,360 --> 03:10:31,320 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 3317 03:10:31,959 --> 03:10:34,040 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 3318 03:10:34,120 --> 03:10:37,560 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 3319 03:10:37,640 --> 03:10:38,120 Speaker 1: for listening.