1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: Welcome back to what could happen here. It's still Cherene 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: and I'm still joined with the one and only James Stout. 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me, Thank you for having me. 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, anytime the listeners they get what they want, you know, 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: they demanded it, and here we. 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: Are delivery log onto the subreddit. 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: I was interested in having someone else receive the information 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 1: I had because it's really hard to do it with myself. 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: And it's also hard not to like sound like a 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: boored professor or something, because I just sound. 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: Like this something I have experienced with. Yeah, you like 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: a pro professor. But it's also very emotionally challenging to 13 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 2: just be like, here some terrible fucking things that have 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: happened again and exactly. 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you buy yourself, it's like it feels a 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: lot heavier for some reason. Uh, And so I'm glad 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: to have someone else on Thank You today. I wanted 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: to talk about something that happened seventy five years ago 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: this month. So there's going to be some history here, 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: but I think it's really important history, So please stay 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: tuned if you want to learn some stuff. But seventy 22 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: five years ago this month, before Israel was officially established 23 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: the Dairya scene massacre happened. This massacre was part of 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: the Nekba, or the catastrophe, and it matters even seventy 25 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: five years later, and it should always serve as a 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: reminder of the atrocities and massacres that took place in 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: order for a country that was already there to be stolen, renamed, terrorized, 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: have people killed and forcibly removed from their homes, and 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: the indigenous people were expelled from their homes and the 30 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: ownership of their own land was granted someone else. And 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: I think reminding everybody of what happened to make that 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: happen is extremely important because we're not that far removed 33 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: from that. Brulu. It's not like we can say, like, oh, 34 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: that was medieval times, like people were different. It's like, no, 35 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: that was like less than one hundred years ago. 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: Shut up. 37 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: The Nakba aka the catastrophe in Arabic, it refers to 38 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,679 Speaker 1: the violent expulsion of approximately three quarters of all Palestinians 39 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: from their homes and homeland by Zionists militias in the 40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: New Israeli Army during the State of Israel's establishment between 41 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven and nineteen forty eight. The Nekabo was 42 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: a deliberate and systematic act intended to establish a Jewish 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: majority state in Palestine. Amongst themselves, Zionist leaders used the 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: euphemism quote unquote transfer when discussing plans for what today 45 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: would be called ethnic cleansing. The roots of the Nakba 46 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 1: and the ongoing problems in Palestine and Israel today they 47 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: lie in the emergence of the political Zionism from the 48 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, when some European Jews, influenced by the 49 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: nationalism that was sweeping the continent, they decided that the 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: solution to anti Semitism in Europe and Russia was the 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: establis publishment of a state for Jews and Palestine. They 52 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: began immigrating to Palestine as colonizers, where they started depossessing 53 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: indigenous Muslim and Christian Palestinians. In November of nineteen forty seven, 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: following World War II and the Holocaust, the newly created 55 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: United Nations approved of a plan to divide Palestine into 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: Jewish and Arab states, against the will of the majority 57 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: indigenous Palestinian Arab population. Again, this was not their decision 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: or choice to make regardless the UN approved of a 59 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: plant divide Palestine into Jewish and Arab states against the 60 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: will of Palestinian people. It gave fifty six percent of 61 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: that land to the proposed Jewish state, despite the fact 62 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: that Jews only owned about seven percent of the private 63 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: land of Palestine and made up only thirty three percent 64 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: of the population, and a very large percentage of this 65 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: percentage of thirty three percent were recent immigrants from Europe. 66 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: So handing over more than half of someone else's land 67 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: truly does it make sense. I don't care what religious 68 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: text or citing, it was wrong at this point in 69 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: time to take that land. It was just wrong. The 70 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: Palestinian Arab state was to be created on just forty 71 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: two percent of Palestine, even though Muslim and Christian Palestinians 72 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: made up a large majority of the population and were 73 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: indigenous to all of the land. Jerusalem was to be 74 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: governed by a special international administration. Almost immediately after the 75 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: partition plan was passed. The expulsion of Palestinians by Zionists 76 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: militias began months before the arming of neighboring Arab states 77 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: began to be involved, so there was no other person 78 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: to say don't do this, or like there was no 79 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: one else to fight to hold them back. I guess, 80 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,239 Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say. And by the time 81 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: these Zionist militias and the new Israeli Army finished, the 82 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: new State of Israel covered seventy eight percent of Palestine. 83 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: So they didn't even follow the rules either. They just 84 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 1: kept on following up the land that wasn't even there, 85 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: speakin with with this violent Nekba that it's just it's 86 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: it's a terrible, horrific thing they did. There is a 87 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: film on Netflix called Farha. It's the first film that 88 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: depicts any kind of story about the Nekba, and it's 89 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: by Palestinian filmmaker. It's really powerful. I would recommend seeing 90 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: that if you want an example of what happened, because 91 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: it's all factual as far as like the terror that 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: they did, so I'd recommend that film. Give it five 93 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: stars for the haters, you know what I mean? 94 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: Oh guy, I can imagine. There were reviews just like yeah, death, Yeah. 95 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: That was the film that the Israeli government tried to 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: to ban, and they were a lot of Zionists were 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: commenting like terrible things about it and giving it one 98 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: star or whatever. They wanted Netflix to take it off Netflix, 99 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: but no, we fuck the haters. Help us out five stars. 100 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: Put it on the background of your TV. 101 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter, just keep streaming on those we get Exactly, Yeah, 102 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 2: strike a blow against colonialism, but that's. 103 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: Just an example of how important and scared they are 104 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: of the truth because it's a movie. It's a fucking movie. 105 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 2: Yeah. The control of the narrative is so important in 106 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: these things, exactly. Yes, And even the way you refer 107 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: to it, right, not not calling it the knock, like 108 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: calling it a transfer, not a cleansing, exactly, calling it, 109 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: like not referring to it in the same terms as 110 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: we would do like the genocidal set of colonialism that 111 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: settled this country, or you know, the way that Britain 112 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: and France and Germany behaved in Africa, like trying to 113 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: not like specifically opposing calling it an apartheid state, right 114 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,080 Speaker 2: when when that's what it is, is what it does. Like, 115 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: all of those things are so important, and they might 116 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: seem like petty battles, but they really control how we 117 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: see things. I think when you control language, you can 118 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: control how people perceive things. 119 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: And I think controlling the narrative is so parallel to 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: like controlling the history books, because that's what gets remembered 121 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: by the people that want to the narrative to have 122 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: a certain thing. Not all history books, obviously, but a 123 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: lot of the times the things that are considered facts 124 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: are biased. You know, I don't know if that makes sense. 125 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, you're only getting half of the things, right 126 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: or like, Yeah, I mean, as a historian, we are 127 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: all biased, and so we should declare our biases and 128 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: sort of go forward that way, rather than presenting our 129 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: biases as unbiased and neutral and then obviously creating a 130 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: biased thing, which is what we tend to get in 131 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 2: the US, especially when we look at this stuff. 132 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, totally. I love that. I Like, I 133 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: didn't bash historians, but I criticized them. But you're like, 134 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: I'm a historian. 135 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I will not jump to the defense of science 136 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: historians I've worked with. Like, there's a chapter in my 137 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: book about volunteers in the Spanish Civil War, and like 138 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: about thirty percent of volunteers were Jewish people, right, and 139 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: many of them had been like couldn't go back to 140 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: Like there are some of them who like fought in 141 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: the Spanish Civil War, were gorillas in the Second World War, 142 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: survived the Holocaust in some cases, and they were anti Zionists, 143 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: and so like they didn't have a place like the 144 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: you know, there wasn't a place for them as people 145 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: who had had stuck to their very decent principles of 146 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 2: like you shouldn't impose shit on force for people who 147 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: don't want it, and we're opposed to fascism or opposed 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: to colonialism. There wasn't a place for them in that 149 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: sort of post World War two Jewish movement, that Zionist movement. 150 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: There were in other places, but yeah, it's very sad 151 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: that their stories aren't like like if a friend of 152 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: mine was the person who first wrote articles about them, 153 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: but like their memory is completely erased, right, or at 154 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: least it's not present, And then they should be people that, 155 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 2: like any reconall person would be very proud of, right 156 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 2: they were willing to die for someone else's battle, and 157 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: then yeah, they were kind of that. They're they stuck 158 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: to the same principles the whole way through it, and 159 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: the world kind of moved around them. 160 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:19,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean, I think as time goes on, 161 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: those things won't even be existing in people's reality, you 162 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: know what I mean, Like if no one remembers that 163 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: that happened, if no one is part of what that happened, 164 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: like it's just going to go away. It's going to disappear. 165 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why it's so important to do history and 166 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 2: to do like to use different sources, right, and to 167 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 2: do history from a people's perspective, not from a perspective 168 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: of people who were in power. Exactly, history from below, 169 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 2: that's what we call it. Say that sounds one more 170 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: time if people call it a history from below, but 171 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: like and to look at other sources, right, like without 172 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: like riding my hobby horse too much. Like I was 173 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: primarily a historian of sport and anti fascism, and like 174 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 2: specifically sport. I got a ton of pushback on when 175 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: I started because it's not important, right, and it's not 176 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: you know, it's not like fucking I don't have any 177 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,079 Speaker 2: charts or whatever, and like, it's actually very important to 178 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: where people were able to express who they were and 179 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: who was on the team and who was not on 180 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 2: their team, right, And that's where you find these people 181 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: who are very impactful lots of other areas. And I 182 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 2: think like if I was a younger person and I 183 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: was trying to find my way from my identity and 184 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: be like, hey, the Sionism seems wrong, like in the 185 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: same way that other things seem wrong. To have those 186 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: people to be like, yeah, these people also saw that right, 187 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: Like they didn't want a boot on anyone's neck, not 188 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: just not, I didn't want it to be their boot 189 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: on someone else's neck. And that was fine, you know, 190 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 2: they like having seen the Holocaust, having seen what happened 191 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: in to Spain, the like, now that this shit is wrong, 192 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: it's still wrong, doesn't matter if we're doing it. 193 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, their humanity prevailed. 194 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's important for people like to have those 195 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: those stories to be like, Okay, well I'm not fucking 196 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 2: crazy or it's not that I just don't understand what 197 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 2: it was like back then, because a lot of people 198 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: could see it and were like, no, we shouldn't be 199 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: doing this. 200 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: Yes, well, historian James, thank. 201 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: You for joining me today. 202 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: Sorry, No, why are you apologizing? I love that shit? 203 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: Fuck No, I love it history from below that you said, Yeah, 204 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: just quite no theme now, I think it's a good 205 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: thing to abide by. So I'm glad that there's a 206 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: little catchy phrase for. 207 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: It, Stewart Hale and things like that. Yeah, we'll do 208 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 2: another episode on this one day. 209 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 1: Yes please. So, as we mentioned before, Israel stole about 210 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: seventy eight percent of Palestine and then this left twenty 211 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: two percent, and the twenty two percent was compromised of 212 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza, and these regions 213 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: fell under the control of Jordan Egypt, respectively. In the 214 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven war, the Israeli military occupied the West Bank, 215 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: East Jerusalem and Gaza, and Israel began colonizing them shortly afterwards. 216 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: And just to give you some numbers, I think they're 217 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: important sometimes just to get the context of the scale 218 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: of something. But the Nekaba, by the numbers, is what 219 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm about to continue. Between seven hundred and fifty thousand 220 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: and one million Palestinians were expelled from their homeland and 221 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: they were made refugees by Zionist militias, amounting to approximately 222 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: seventy five percent of all Palestinians. Between two hundred and 223 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: fifty thousand and three hundred fifty thousand Palestinians were driven 224 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: out from their homes by Zionist militias Between the passage 225 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: of the UN Partition Plan on November twenty ninth of 226 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven and the establishment of Israel on May 227 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: fifteenth of nineteen forty eight. Prior to the outbreak of 228 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: war with the neighboring Arab States, several dozen massacres of 229 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: Palestinians were carried out by Zionist militias and the Israeli Army, 230 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: which played a critical role in prompting the flight of 231 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: many Palestinians from their homes. More than one hundred Palestinians, 232 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: including dozens of children, women, and elderly people, were massacred 233 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: in the Palestinian town of Dariusne near Jerusalem on April 234 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: nineth of nineteen forty eight by Zionist militia. This is 235 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 1: the main massacre I want to talk about today because 236 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: it's been exactly seventy five years on April ninth. But 237 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: it was one of many massacres, and it was the 238 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: one that is cited as igniting a lot of the 239 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: Codomino effect. The massacre at Daria scene was one of 240 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: the worst atrocities committed during the Nakba and a pivotal 241 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: moment in Israel's establishment as a Jewish majority state, and 242 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: again it triggered the flight of Palestinians from their homes 243 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: in Jerusalem and beyond. The Dariacene massacre is commemorated annually 244 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: by Palestinians around the world. Approximately one hundred and fifty 245 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: thousand Palestinians remained inside what became Israel's borders in nineteen 246 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: forty eight, a quarter of them internally displaced. These Palestinians, 247 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 1: who are sometimes referred to as Israeli Arabs, were granted 248 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: Israeli citizenship, but stripped of most of their land and 249 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: governed by violent, undemocratic military rule as of nineteen sixty six. 250 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: As of twenty twenty three, there are more than two 251 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: million Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, comprising more than twenty percent 252 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: of Israel's population, and they are forced to live as 253 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: second class citizens in their own homeland, subject to dozens 254 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: of laws that discriminate against them in almost every aspect 255 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: of life because they're not Jewish. Let's take our first 256 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: break here and I'll come back and tell you more 257 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: terrible things. So here we okay, we're back. I'm going 258 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: to finish up a little bit more of these numbers 259 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: and then I'm going to talk about Darius. More than 260 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: four hundred Palestinian cities and towns were systematically destroyed by 261 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: Zionist militias and the New Israeli Army, or they are 262 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: repopulated with Jews. Between nineteen forty eight and nineteen fifty, 263 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: most Palestinian communities, including homes, businesses, houses of worship, vib 264 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: urban centers, they were destroyed to prevent the return of 265 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: their palace Stinian owners who are now refugees outside of 266 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: Israel's borders, or they were internally displaced inside them. Today, 267 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: there are more than seven point two million Palestinian refugees, 268 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: including Neckbus survivors and their descendants. They're located mostly in 269 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: the occupied West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza and neighboring 270 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: Arab countries such as Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria, and they're 271 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: denied their internationally recognized legal right to return to their homeland. 272 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: This is the last big number I want to say, 273 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: just because I think it's it's so big I had 274 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: to say it. Approximately four million, two hundred and forty 275 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: four thousand, seven hundred and seventy six acres of Palestinian 276 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: land was stolen by Israel during and immediately after the 277 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: establishment of the state in nineteen forty eight, millions of acres, 278 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: Like it's not just a tiny little place that no 279 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: one was in before, like noe, millions of acres of 280 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: land were forcibly stolen. 281 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, and all of them, like the land 282 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 2: that people have had for generations that they're farm Like 283 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: this is like it's not the oldest settlement on earth, 284 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: but people have been living here for tens of thousands 285 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: of years. 286 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: I said, Aluxey Yesterday was built in ten thirty five. 287 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 2: Like yeah, this shit is very old. And like sometimes 288 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: the same people or people's sort of family. It's not 289 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: just a loss of property, so lots of everything that's 290 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: sacred and like the Aluxa Mosque or these things that 291 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: are sacred and important to you, you know. 292 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: And yeah, and so more it's what you said earlier. 293 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: It's like we have to remember these things because otherwise 294 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: they'll get forgotten the in whoever's recording the history, you. 295 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: Know what I mean, Like it's yeah, I mean they 296 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: have been here. Right when we look at how America 297 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: sees itself, it sees the land that it expanded into. 298 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: It's like Terrannullius, like like empty land that was unoccupied, 299 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: which it was not. There was not a wilderness to tame. 300 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: Like there were people living here and they were living 301 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 2: very happily, and they were living they weren't like I 302 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: don't want to do the whole like like in commune 303 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 2: with nature thing, but like this wasn't a wild and 304 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: savage place, right. There were people existing here and taking 305 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 2: from the land and living on the land, and like 306 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: we that just doesn't get fucking like Ruth Bader Ginsburg 307 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: was citing the doctrine of discovery, you know, like you 308 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 2: all the libs love Ruth Bader Ginswick, but like it's 309 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: so subsumed into what America is that Like like Obama 310 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 2: did a fucking tweet like this nation was built on 311 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: peaceful protest. It was built fucking genocide, Like fuck off, yeah, 312 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: but we've allowed that to just go completely forgotten, right, 313 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: Like you don't go to school in California and be like, oh, 314 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: there is a fucking unit they just changed. Actually there 315 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: was a Unipero Hessea High School and like this is 316 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 2: a person who did genocide. Like we wouldn't have a 317 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: fucking Gerbels High School in Germany, you know, and then 318 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 2: Britain does a shit too. I'm not not like I'm 319 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: in a glasshouse, so I didn't say that, but yeah, 320 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: this wasn't an empty place, and. 321 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 1: It's really important to remember that because that is so 322 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: often the talking point of fucking stupid people that try 323 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: to defend what Israel is doing. Let's go to now 324 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: the main massacre or topic I want to talk about today, 325 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: which happened on April ninth in nineteen forty eight, just 326 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: weeks before the creation of the State of Israel, when 327 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: members of the Urguon and Stern Gang Zionist militias attacked 328 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: the village of Dryasin and they killed at least one 329 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: hundred and seven Palestinians. Zionist militias tore through Palestinian villages, 330 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: massacring villagers and expelling those who remained alive, to clear 331 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: the way for the creation of the state of Israel, 332 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: and this was one of the many massacres that happened 333 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: during the Nekba, where again an estimated fifteen thousand Palestinians 334 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: were killed and some seven hundred and fifty thousand fled 335 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: their homes as refugees. Ignited a very terrifying domino effect. 336 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: This year, the UN will host its first ever high 337 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: level event to commemorate this forced displacement that resulted in 338 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: the establishment of the state of Israel in May and 339 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight. So this is the first time ever 340 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: that the U one has recognized that the Nekbu even happened, 341 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: or like is it happened enough to mention it and 342 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: commemorate it. But Palestinians have never ceased to commemorate the 343 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: loss of each village that was once part of their homeland. 344 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: Among them was Darya Sine, and it was a village 345 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: perched on a hill west of Jerusalem. And this massacre 346 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: has become emblematic of the suffering that Israel would inflict 347 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: on the Palestinians. Many of the people slaughtered, from those 348 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: who were tied to trees and burned to death to 349 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: those lined up against a wall and shot by submachine guns. 350 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: Many of these people were women, children, and the elderly, 351 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: and Fudha does a really good job of showing this 352 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: lack of discrimination of life in general in that movie 353 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: that I mentioned earlier. As the new of these atrocities spread, 354 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: thousands fled their villages in fear so again. On April 355 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: ninth and nineteen forty eight, the Israeli militia struck theiry, 356 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: A scene where about seven hundred Palestinians lived. According to 357 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: the Israeli narrative, operation Nashon and Ahhson apologies if I 358 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: mispronounce that, but this operation aimed to break through the 359 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: blockaded road to Jerusalem, and the fighters encountered stiff resistance 360 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 1: from the villagers that forced them to advance slowly from 361 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: house to house. It's kind of silly and strange how 362 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: the same excuse is being used a century later to 363 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: justify acts of terror. They're saying that villagers resisted them 364 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: and that's why they butchered them. It's yeah, it's pathetic. 365 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: It's stupid and pathetic. 366 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: And like, yeah, for having the I don't know, temerity 367 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: to be like no, you can't take my home. Yeah, 368 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: they carried out a collective punishment on Yeah. 369 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 1: And that's the Israeli narrative. That's what their history books say, 370 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: is that this was the aim of this operation. They 371 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: were simply encountering the stiff resistance and they had to 372 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: go from house to house like that. It's just a 373 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: fucked up narrative, but Palestinians and some Israeli historians say 374 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: that the villagers had signed a non aggression agreement with 375 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: the Haganah, which was the pre Israeli state Zionist army. 376 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: They were nevertheless murdered in cold blood and buried in 377 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: mass graves. According to a nineteen forty eight report filed 378 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: by the British delegation to the UN, the killing of 379 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: quote some two hundred and fifty Arabs men, women and 380 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: children took place in circumstances of great savagery. Women and 381 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 1: children were stripped, lined up, photographed, and then slaughtered by 382 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: automatic firing. Those who were taken prisoners were treated with 383 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: degrading brutality. This is from a nineteen forty eight report 384 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 1: filed by the British delegation. 385 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 2: Like it's in the record, wouldn't they both like the 386 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: stern going and the the whatever the military was called 387 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 2: the beginning was in It's like I said, l I 388 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 2: think were like they hadn't really done any military operations before, 389 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: right that they'd just been they just like bomb like 390 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 2: they did car bombs and shit to this, like the 391 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: British had already like like that. They were like they 392 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: were killing British people and I guess Arab people in 393 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: Palestine before this, yes. 394 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the escalation in violence was like pretty severe, right, 395 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: but I think they would have gone there eventually, you know, 396 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 1: they's kind of hit forward. 397 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 2: I think they'd already like established an intention or like 398 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: a willingness to kill just about anyone who got in 399 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: their way, right, and they wanted to show that they 400 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: were like unlike the like I guess the labor aligned 401 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: Zionist movement, that they were like more hardcore than that, 402 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: and they exactly like that's where they made a spectacle 403 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: of violence like. 404 00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: This, they're establishing their their power and dominant. Israeli historian 405 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: Benny Morris said that the militia's quote ransacked unscrupulously, stole 406 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 1: money and jewels from the survivors, and burned the bodies. 407 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: Even dismemberment and rape occurred. I mean, there's nothing to 408 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: say to that. The number of dead is disputed, but 409 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: it ranges from one hundred to two hundred and fifty. 410 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: A representative of the Red Cross who entered Darya scene 411 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: on April eleventh. Two days later, they reported seeing the 412 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: bodies of some one hundred and fifty people heaped haphazardly 413 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: in a cave, while around fifty were amassed in a 414 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: separate location. Prominent Jewish intellectual Martin Buber wrote at the 415 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: time that such events had been quote unquote infamous. In 416 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: Darya scene, hundreds of innocent men, women and children were massacred. 417 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: He said, let the village remain uninhabited for the time being. 418 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: Let its desolation be a terrible and tragic symbol of 419 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: war and a warning to our people that no practical 420 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: military needs may ever justify such acts of murder. He 421 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: also noted that Darya scene had a profound demographic and 422 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: political effect, and he's referring to the fact that the 423 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: news of his massacre spread and it prompted hundreds of 424 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: Palestinians to flee their homes. Four nearby villages were next Ailunia, Cyrus, 425 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: bit Saruk and Bidu. Darya scene was no mistake, according 426 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: to Israeli historian Ilan Pape Iline Pape has been called 427 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: a Israeli quote unquote revisionist historian because he tells the truth, 428 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: the actual truth of what happened in their history. 429 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, the concept of revision's history is nonsense, like it 430 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: suggests that there is a settled history at some point, 431 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: which does not right, Like we're always looking at sources again, 432 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: but was looking for new sources, different perspectives. It's not 433 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: like there is like this monolith of history and then 434 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: some meddling buss had comes and chops it down. It's 435 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 2: fundamentally like misunderstanding how history is done. Yess why you 436 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: shouldn't pay attention to Malcolm Gladwell for that and many 437 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: other reasons. But yeah, it's a ridiculous ideas. He's not 438 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: like it's not like everyone was like, oh yeah, this 439 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: wasn't a bad thing, and then he came along and 440 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 2: like injected some kind of political animist in his history. 441 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: He came along and looked at maybe news sources, maybe 442 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: the same sources of people how I don't know. And 443 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: it was like, now, you guys, have you got this wrong? 444 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 2: You called this wrong. But that's what historians do. Like 445 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 2: you can't fucking write your PhD without disagreeing with someone 446 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: and doing some new history. Like that's what takes you 447 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: from a master's to a doctorate. And like you're supposed 448 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: to do three articles in a book to get tenure. 449 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: Like your articles can't just be like, yeah, we pretty 450 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: much called this one right the first time. You know, 451 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: like the process of doing history is to revise and 452 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 2: hope to better understand things from different perspectives. 453 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: Totally. I like that that's the point of history is 454 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: to revise, because you're right, And I just think it's 455 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: it's so discrediting of his work to call him a 456 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: visionist historian. Yeah, it's condescending, you know. And as someone 457 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: that interviewed him called him this. 458 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean hopefully he gave them both barrels because 459 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: it's kind of a ridiculous. Yay, it shows that they 460 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 2: fundamentally unqualified to be discussing the topic. 461 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 1: I guess, Yeah, I want to talk about what he said, 462 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: but I realized that I didn't take the last break, 463 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: and I want to right now, and that is my choice. 464 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: So OAT, proud of you, thank you. 465 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: And we're back. We were talking about Elan Pape, a 466 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: revisionis quote unquote historian, but not really. You know, he 467 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: was called that because he was talking about Israel the 468 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: way it was it should be talked about with actual 469 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: historical facts. In one of his writings, Pape wrote depopulating 470 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: Palestine was not a consequential war event, but a carefully 471 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 1: planned strategy otherwise known as Plan Dalette, which was authorized 472 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: by the Israeli leader Ben Gurion in March of nineteen 473 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: forty eight. Operation Nashan was in fact the first step 474 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: in the plan, and as I said, the massacre unleashed 475 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: a cycle of violence and counter violence that has been 476 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: the pattern ever since this happened. Jewish forces have regarded 477 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: any Palestinian village as an enemy state or a military base, 478 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 1: and this has paved the way for this blurred distinction 479 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: between massacring civilians and killing combatants. According to the historian, 480 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: So what does all of this say about Israel's vision today? 481 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: This is why I want to talk about this is 482 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 1: because this started this whole cycle of violence that we 483 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: still see perpetuated today. And it's why Palestinians refuse to 484 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 1: forget it and forget what happened, and they'll always talk 485 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: about Palestine because they don't want to be erased from 486 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: history books. Dariasne has become a powerful symbol of Palaestinian 487 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: dispossession as well as a historical fact Israel must confront 488 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: when retelling its national narrative. According to Pepe given that 489 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: terrorism is a mode of behavior that Israeli's attribute solely 490 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: to the Palestinian resistance movement, it could not be a 491 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: part of any analysis or description of chapters in Israel's past. 492 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: One way out of this conundrum, he says, was to 493 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: accredit a particular political group, preferably an extremist one with 494 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: the same attributes of the enemy, thus exonerating mainstream national behavior. 495 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: Israeli historians as well as Israeli society, they've only been 496 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: able to admit to the massacre and Daria scene by 497 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: attributing it to the right wing group Irgun, but have 498 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: covered up or denied the other massacres, notably the one 499 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: in Tantura in nineteen forty eight. This was carried out 500 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: by the Huganah, the main Jewish militia from which the 501 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: current day Israeli military has evolved from. And despite this 502 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: shift of blame, leading human rights organizations like Human Rights 503 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: Watch and the State International have labeled Israel itself in 504 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: a parked tyde state. 505 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 2: I've just seen the worst ever op ed in the 506 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: Jerusalem Post about now what tell me it's about this, 507 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 2: But it's about like the knuckbar, like it contains like 508 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 2: this kind of narrative that like, oh well, the knuckbo 509 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 2: was coined by by like historians to like explain the 510 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,719 Speaker 2: failure of the Palestinians to defend themselves, which is like 511 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: a what does that fucking matter? And be like what 512 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: are you saying? Like what that contains within it the 513 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 2: nonation that they would have to defend themselves from someone 514 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 2: who was that how And then like like going back 515 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 2: and forth on the number of people killed, like which 516 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: you know, the low estimates are as low as like 517 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 2: one hundred and seven, highest wins in the two hundred 518 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: and fifties based on claims that the militias themselves made right. 519 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: So like again, what it is it cool to kill 520 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 2: like one hundred people but two hundred and fifty people? 521 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: Was like, you know, we should step in there, and 522 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 2: just like I was just checking the author's affiliation because 523 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: that's always fun, and he's a research for the Menachen 524 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 2: Beguine Heritage Center. I may have pronounced that incorrectly, but 525 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: when the organization you work for is memorializing heritage of 526 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 2: one of the dudes who led the massacre, you might 527 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: want to like to step aside from I mean or 528 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: not right, but just shut up, just dive the fuck in. 529 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: But like you are flying your flag as a fairly part. 530 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: It's like I said, right, all historians are biased. But yes, 531 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 2: when like you know, if if I work at the 532 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: Colonel Custer Heritage Center, like please take my account of 533 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 2: the United States like violent assault on the Lakota people 534 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: with a pinch of salt, because like I'm coming at 535 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: this from a certain perspective. And yeah, here we are 536 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 2: at twenty twenty three, still still doing the doing the 537 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 2: thing where we were, rather than just like taking the 538 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: l and just being like, oh, like it's bad actually 539 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: to rape and mutilate and murder people trying to equivocate. 540 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: It's funny you mentioned articles though, because I just saw 541 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: one and when I was researching for Alexai yesterday of 542 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: this Israeli cop that admitted that the videos he saw 543 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: was a bad. Look like that's what he said. 544 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: It was just like good cop. Yeah, And the course 545 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: of solution site is to not allow people to take 546 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: videos of you brutal. Yeah, yeah, that's the reituation. Yeah yeah. 547 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 2: Tim Apple known anti cop anarchist. 548 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: So Human Rights Watch and Anasty International have labeled it 549 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: was reel as an apartheid state, and Human Rights Watch 550 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: said in twenty twenty one, we reached this determination based 551 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: on our documentation of an overarching government policy to maintain 552 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: the domination by Jewish Israeli's over Palestinians. As recognition grows 553 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: that these crimes are being committed, the failure to recognize 554 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: that reality requires burying your head deeper and deeper into 555 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: the sand. Today, apartheid is not a hypothetical or future scenario, 556 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: and I apartheid is a very light word to use, 557 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: but I did want to just mention that an organization 558 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 1: said that, not just like I don't know, there's just 559 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: it's officially on paper that Israel sucks, Like why are 560 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: we still defending it? I'm just like, go rewatch the 561 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders video from yesterday, like or audio, because there's 562 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: no reason we should be funneling any kind of support 563 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: into that country. 564 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it did. It's mad. We still 565 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: made a loan of money selling weapons to Israel, but 566 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: it used against like and a. Robert and I pursued 567 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 2: a public records request for going on two years for 568 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: like these batteries that launch hundreds and hundreds of smoke 569 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: grenades and flash bangs that a US company is selling 570 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: to Israel, right, yeah, like it's great they can find 571 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: them into a mosque, I mean, not surprising, No, it's 572 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: just annoying. Annoying the wrong word, but like, yeah, there 573 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: are people who make a lot of money every time 574 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: things get more violent there, right, and people who are 575 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: very invested in that. Yeah, and yeah that's Gooulich as 576 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 2: fuck it is. 577 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: And that's actually all I have. That's a good, good 578 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: place to end, if any But I hope you learned 579 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: something if you didn't know something in this episode, and 580 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: I hope you go watch Futterha or God's Fights for Freedom. 581 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I don't think this is history that should ever be 582 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: understated or forgotten, so I'm always more than happy to 583 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: talk about it, even if it's depressing. So thank you 584 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: for joining me today, James. 585 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: That's okay, it's been very uplifting. I don't be a right, 586 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: it's important, it's very important. Hopefully one day we'll have 587 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: the PK GASA episode. Yes, that would be great. I 588 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: guess if you're in the UK and have old copies 589 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: of Men's Health, you can read about young people doing 590 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 2: parkering Gaza. It's pretty heavy. I will have another story 591 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 2: about that soon. But yeah, where should people? I think 592 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: a good thing. Maybe if we could end on like, uh, 593 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,720 Speaker 2: where is a good place to find news about Palestine? 594 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: I really like El Jazeera, especially their opinion pieces are 595 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,760 Speaker 1: pretty good because a lot of the times they're written 596 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: by people that are really passionate about what they're writing. Yeah, 597 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 1: I think following actual Palestinians on social media is always 598 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: a good call. Like a Middle Kurd is one of 599 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: the most prominent voices recently that has been uplifted, and 600 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,359 Speaker 1: I would follow his social media as his sister has 601 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: one as well. His family's house was basically we had 602 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: the threat of being demolished last year. His house was 603 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: in Schech if you remembered any of that stuff from 604 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: last year with the violence going on there. I also 605 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: really like Subitaha. He's on Instagram mostly and he has 606 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 1: a podcast now. I would highly recommend following his stuff. 607 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: He is so informed and so uh just easy to 608 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:19,240 Speaker 1: understand too, So I would watch that. And yeah, Mohammed 609 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: Lakurt actually was on some news program like like Face 610 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: the Nation or no, maybe not that, but he was 611 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: on recently like basically uh, handing the asses of the 612 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: people that were talking to him about Israel and Palestine? 613 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Is that the right way to say that? 614 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: I don't know. 615 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: He was just stating he was he was not willing 616 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: to be talked over and whatever. 617 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, which I like, Yeah, he shouldn't be. My friend 618 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 2: Hussam is a photographer in Palestine. Most of those Auja 619 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 2: Zerra pieces you'll see are his photographs. Actually, well Sam 620 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: Salem Guh he's photograph we've worked together before. But yeah, 621 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 2: if you if you're a person who'd like to see pictures, 622 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: his pictures are very good. 623 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point too. Also, there are a 624 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: lot of accounts that are solely about Palestine, and a 625 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: lot of these Palestine activists follow them and share them, 626 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: so you will find more organizations by following them. There 627 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: is I for Palestine. There's I think it's like land Palestine, 628 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: Like I think, there's a lot of really trusted accounts 629 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: on the Internet. You have to find the ones that 630 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: are trusted, and a lot of times it's stuff from 631 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: the ground and that's the stuff that needs to be 632 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: seen and shared because if there's going to be any 633 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: upside to fucking internet and social media, it has to 634 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: be to spread stuff like this around and make sure 635 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: people know about it. 636 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, I think it gives us a 637 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 2: way to like get underneath that like hegemonic narrative and 638 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 2: see what happens to real people every day. Yeah. 639 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's all. Okay, whatever, that's the episode. Bye. 640 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 2: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 641 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 642 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 643 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 644 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at 645 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.