1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. My guest today is a renowned 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: journalist and former CBS correspondent for sixty Minutes. Known for 4 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: his acclaimed investigative reporting, Steve Croft has won five Peabody 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: Awards and eleven Emmy Awards, including a Lifetime Achievement Emmy 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: in two thousand and three. His legendary reporting career spans 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: international war coverage and major historical events such as the 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: Chernobyl disaster and the infamous nineteen ninety two interview with 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: Hillary and President Bill Clinton. Steve Croft got his starred 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: in journalism when he was drafted into the Army in 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,839 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. There he worked for the military newspaper Stars 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: and Stripes as a correspondent photographer in Vietnam. He received 13 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: an honorable discharge from the army a year later in 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,319 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy one, although the war would not officially end 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: for another four years. I was curious if Croft had 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: any sense that the end of conflict was near when 17 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: he arrived in Vietnam. 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: We had a sense that it was supposed to wind down. 19 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 2: I'm not really sure I had much confidence in that 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 2: because it was still dangerous and actually actually nineteen sixty 21 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: nine was the bloodiest year of the war, more people killed. 22 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: I would have guessed sixty eight, but it was sixty nine, 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: and that was all fighting sort of geared up to 24 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: pulling the US troops out. I have to tell you 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: right now. I mean, this was the beginning of my 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: journalism career. Did you feel a. 27 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: Sense when you were there that you were managed in 28 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: terms of what reporting they expected from you. 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 2: Definitely. I mean the first ten months I was there, 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: I was with a headquarters company with the twenty fifth 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: Infantry Division, and I was in information SPECIALI Cucchi and 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 2: I did half an hour radio show for Armed Forces 33 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: Network every week, and one of my jobs was to 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: escort network correspondence and print correspondence in the field, and 35 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: we had a lot of those people come through the office, 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: and that was really what got me hooked when I 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 2: went in. I wanted to be an advertising That's what 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: I thought I wanted to do. Well. It was during 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: the great year of Doyle Daane burn Back and all 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 2: those great ideas. Yeah yeah, yeah, and television commercials were 41 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: the most in the newspaper magazine commercials were the most 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 2: interesting things and the most creative things around. I went 43 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: to Syracuse one of the most horrifying experiences of a 44 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: whole Vietnam. So it really took up five years of 45 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: my life because there were two years of worrying about 46 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 2: it and what the hell I was going to do, 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: because I was about to lose my student deferment and 48 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: I graduated in the sixty seven and in nineteen sixty 49 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 2: eight was you. 50 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: Know, they're taking everybody crazy, everybody. I got drafted in 51 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: the largest draft call of the war, so I had 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: to figure out how I was going to deal with it. 53 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: I certainly didn't want to go to officers Candidate school 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: because I didn't have strong feelings about the war one 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: way or the other. But I knew that if I 56 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: was an officer, I'd have to worry about getting shot 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: in the back and shot from the front because there 58 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: were a lot of lame second lieutenants who didn't know 59 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: what they were doing, who led a lot of people 60 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: into dangerous situations and were removed. So I had a 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: friend who had been in the army. He was the 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: editor of The Daily Orange, the Syracuse newspaper, and he 63 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 1: for one reason or another I can't remember. Had done 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: a stint with the eighty second Airborn sort of in 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: between his college years, and he said, what you should 66 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: do is you should go down and enlist in the Army. 67 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: Because the Navy was four years, in the Air Force 68 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: was four years, all these other things. The Army had 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: a program where you could go down and enlist for 70 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: three years and get to pick what you were going 71 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: to do more or less. And it turned out to 72 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: be a great decision because I got in this field, 73 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: this information field, and it became my sort of survival skill, 74 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: and it was a great experience. 75 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: I was very lucky. Carl Bernstein said to me, not 76 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: too long ago, you had a good war. But it 77 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: was also a great You know, my boss was like 78 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: on the staff at the general of the division, and 79 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: it was right next to command headquarters, and you would 80 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: see people coming in all the time from the battalions 81 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: and companies in the field, and you had a good 82 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: sense of how the war was going not all that well, 83 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: and you had a sense of what was being reported. 84 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: And I remember my boss having just shouting matches with 85 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: this guy named George Esper from the Associated Press, arguing 86 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: over battles and great reports that had come in. Now 87 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 2: there it was clear that I had that I was 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: doing the bidding of the twenty fifth. That was my job. 89 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 2: The difference in going to Stars at Stripes was was 90 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 2: that I had much more freedom to report, and it 91 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: was the newspaper of the Pacific Command and my boss, 92 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: my ultimate boss, who I used to care for when 93 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 2: he came to Vietnam was John McCain's father, who was 94 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: the Commander of Chief in the Pacific. There you could write, 95 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:19,919 Speaker 2: You could get away with a lot of stuff, and 96 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 2: we didn't have to send it to the censors. We 97 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: had editors in Tokyo that looked at it, but I 98 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: didn't have to like send it down to Saigon for 99 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 2: the military censors to go through. 100 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: But you're somebody at sixty minutes, your career marks that 101 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: dedicated section. Yeah, the Steve Croft years are the years. Well, 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: I'm parked in front of the TV and it's sixty minutes. 103 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: Chinese food for dinner would arrive at the apartment right 104 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: the Sopranos. That was my Sunday every night. I was 105 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: a boomer representative. 106 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: When I first came there, I used to joke, I 107 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: said you know that you can divide this show into 108 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: two categories, the people who like rock and roll and 109 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 2: the people who think it's a passing fad. So I 110 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: was the first of the baby boomer. 111 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: Well, when I would watch the show, what I'm getting 112 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: to is that, you know, you were always somebody who 113 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: what came across effortlessly. Here's a guy that's reporting, and 114 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: inside and threading into that person is the person, and 115 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: therefore the reporting was your conscience. 116 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, you bring a lot of conscience to your work. 117 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, people knew you were going to be fair and 118 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: not just progressive, lefty whatever. And you know, taking that stance, 119 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: you were going to be smart and fair and your 120 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: conscience was going. 121 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: Fair is important word. But then you then you can't 122 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: consider so much important anymore. Well, it's bag it's baggage. 123 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: But the thing is that when you're there, I'm assuming 124 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of things you wanted to report, 125 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: un that they told you not to do that. 126 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: There wasn't much of that was there. The best story 127 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: that I ever covered for Stars and Stripes was not printed. 128 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,679 Speaker 2: I was up in quang Nam Province outside the nang 129 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: and we were going out with what they called the 130 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: Rough Tough Unit sort of Vietnamese farmer who were militiamen. 131 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: And it was a very nasty area and we knew 132 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: going out that we were going to get hit, and 133 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 2: we did. And the Arvin, you know, they came in 134 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: and were the Vietnase commanders and pulled some women out 135 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 2: of the hooches and took one of them down and 136 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: tortured her by trying to drown her in the river. 137 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: I took some pictures of it. I wrote the story, 138 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: and they said, we're not going to print. 139 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: This. 140 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: Was this after Melai. Yes, yeah, so they were sensitive 141 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: about the Yes, about the US, and they're always sensitive 142 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 2: about the allies, which included the Koreans who are now 143 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: fighting the Northern Koreans who are now fighting for the 144 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Russians in Ukraine. 145 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: Now you're when you're there during this period, you're writing 146 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: and you're doing some radio, but no television. Well when 147 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: you come home, it becomes TV. You get into TV 148 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: pretty quickly once you get home. Yeah, why why didn't 149 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: you say a writer? I'd always kind of wanted to 150 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: be in television. I had taken a lot of television courses, 151 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: and I had done the radios thing. So the Stars 152 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: and Stripes was really the only print journalism I did. 153 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: And you know, I had six months of like unemployment 154 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 1: insurance coming back from Vietnam. 155 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: But I had to go and like go to a 156 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: job interview. And one of the job interviews was for 157 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: a television station and the person who was the head 158 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: of the Chamber of Commerce was also the head of 159 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: the TV station and he hired me, so offered me 160 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: a job, and it was hard to get. Those jobs 161 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: were hard to get, and I took it. So, I mean, 162 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: it's just why I fell into place. Yeah, that's why. 163 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: That's why I are. You do s Yr But then 164 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: you go down to Florida. Correct? Why I went off 165 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: to Columbia, I'm sorry, a graduate degree at JO Why 166 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 2: did you want to do that? You were working? 167 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: Why? 168 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: I wanted to do it to get out of Syracuse 169 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: because I was finding it difficult to make a jump 170 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 2: to a major market, and I thought that the Columbia 171 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: thing would give me a little bit more credibility in 172 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: New York if I wanted it, because I wanted to 173 00:08:58,360 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: ultimately go to the networks. 174 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: Yeah and so, and they did give you the credibility 175 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: because you just work you're in Jacksonville, you're in Miami. 176 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 2: Both those stations owned by the Washington Post Company. What 177 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: was your just someone connection with them? Had you worked 178 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: for them? I didn't, but it was a great company 179 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 2: to work for Back then. I got hired to go 180 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: down to Jacksonville. I had a friend at CBS and 181 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: he says, why don't you go down talk to Jim Snyder, 182 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: who is the head of WTP, the CBS affiliate in Washington. 183 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: He runs Post newsweek stations. You know. I went down 184 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: and I talked to Jim, and Jim said, I've got 185 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: this investigator reporter's job opening Jacksonville. You know, I'd like 186 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 2: you to go down and talk to the news director 187 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 2: and we can put you in there because I've done 188 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: some investigative reporting at WSYR. So I get down there 189 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: and it turns out that everybody in town, all these people, 190 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, the news director says, oh, we've got some 191 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: great stories down here. The town was run kind of 192 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 2: by independent authorities. It was like all these businessmen were 193 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: running the town. There was support authority, the electric all 194 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: of this stuff, and our license. Both stations were being 195 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: challenged by a group of very rich Republicans who had 196 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: gotten in trouble. If you may remember when I think 197 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: it was Bernstein or Woodward called up John Mitchell, who 198 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: was the Attorney General of the United States at the time, 199 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 2: and asked him a couple of questions about Watergate. Woke 200 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 2: come up and woke him up, And Mitchell's response was, 201 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: Katie Graham's going to get her kit in her ringer 202 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: if you print this story. But what they did was 203 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: they challenged the licenses of the two most profitable parts 204 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: of the Washington Post want the TV stations in Jacksonville 205 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: and Miami. So I was there and it ended up 206 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: I didn't know this at the time, but I was 207 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: doing stories on all the people that were behind the 208 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 2: license channel challenge. I wanted something about journalism that day. 209 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: They didn't prevail them. 210 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: They didn't prevail, right, And you were there for how 211 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: long in Florida before because eventually come to New York 212 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: after that two years? 213 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: I was there in Jacksonville two years and two years 214 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: in Miami. 215 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: What was your where had you spent even during your 216 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: su days and then of course during your Columbia days 217 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: you're uptown? But what did you think about when you 218 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: first came to New York. Did you see it potentially 219 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: as a place you were going to spend the rest 220 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: of your life? You being from Indiana, Yeah, and I 221 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: also been from Chappaqua. I graduated from high school at Chapequa, 222 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: so I knew it by taking the Harlem Line into 223 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: Grand Center and going to play. 224 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: You're familiar with New York obviously, Yeah, But did you 225 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: love New York? 226 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: Did you think you did you know it was going 227 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: to be I thought it was a big time, you know, 228 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: And I thought, here I am. 229 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: I'm working for CBS and a network correspondent. I'd got 230 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: in my dream the whole thing. It was absolutely the 231 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 2: most junior person at CBS at the time and worked 232 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 2: in the Northeast Bureau. And I did a lot of 233 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: crap work, a lot of stakouts. You know, you take 234 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: a camera crew and you wait all day waiting for 235 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: somebody to come out. Maybe they won't come out. I 236 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,959 Speaker 2: don't know how many days I spent standing outside the 237 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: hospital where they thought the show of Iran was but 238 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 2: he was not there. Ever there and I spent two 239 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: miserable days in the rain outside the DA Code after 240 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 2: John Lennon got shot. Now and I got sent to Dallas, 241 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: and I said, we're making you a correspondent, because everybody 242 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: started off as a reporter. We're making a correspondent. That's 243 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: the good news. Bad news is we're sending you to 244 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: our Salvador. So I went down there and spent a 245 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,719 Speaker 2: couple of months in our salad, which actually was more 246 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 2: dangerous for me than Vietnam. 247 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: Journalist and news correspondent Steve Croft. If you enjoy conversations 248 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 1: with world class journalists, check out my interview with Dan Rather. 249 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 3: When the first faint edges of what we came to 250 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 3: know is Watergate begun to emerge, I was skeptical that 251 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 3: it would reach the Oval Office itself. You never met 252 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 3: anybody who had more respect for the office of the 253 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: Presidency in the United States than I do. It was 254 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 3: very difficult for me to accept that the President himself 255 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: would be involved in any way. However, as time went along, 256 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: facts began the first wisp. Then they begin to speak 257 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: in fou voice, and then the facts begin to shout. 258 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 3: It isn't just lower level campaign operatuies, It isn't just 259 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: lower level members of the administration. That this probably goes 260 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: into the Oval Office itself. 261 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Dan rather go 262 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Steve 263 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: Croft tells the story of being attacked while reporting on location. 264 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing. In 265 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: Steve Croft's final interview for sixty Minutes, he told fellow 266 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: correspondent Leslie Stall that in spite of interviewing intimidating figures 267 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: and traveling to dangerous places, he was never afraid while 268 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: doing an interview. The only exceptions Croft cited were interview 269 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: was in Beirut and Zimbabwe. I was curious what made 270 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: him nervous during those two particular stories. 271 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: Well, in Zimbabwe, we were attacked by a group of 272 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 2: black quote unquote war veterans who were trying to drive 273 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: the white farmers out of South Africa. I was doing 274 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: a story on one of the farmers and I thought 275 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: that was going to be really hairy. They had big, 276 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: huge clubs and they were very upset. But we got 277 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: out of it. In Beirute just because it was brute. 278 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: I mean there were buildings blowing up every fifteen minutes 279 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 2: and you had to really pay attention to where you 280 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: went and what you were doing. The place was out 281 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 2: of control. Are you a religious man? Do you think 282 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 2: you're alive because of a lot of war coverage? For you, 283 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: I did intense, intense period of this kind of very 284 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 2: dangerous reporting. Yeah. 285 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: I mean, other than being lucky, what else do you 286 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: attributed to You just had an eye for what to do. 287 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: He had a sense it's very exciting, Okay. Churchill said, 288 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: there's no feeling in the world. The most exhilarating feeling 289 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: in the world is to be shot at without result. 290 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: And it was. There was a lot of adrenaline, and 291 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: it was a great way to advance your career, and 292 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: because you were always going to be on the air 293 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: and I liked it. I liked it for a while, 294 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: and then the chance came to go to London and 295 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: I decided to do that. That's where I ended up 296 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: in Beirut when I was working in the London bureau, 297 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: which was I spent three years there and I was 298 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: traveling all over the world and that was really the 299 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: best time I had at CBS. I love that why, 300 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: because that's the reason I wanted to be a correspondent. 301 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: I wanted to see the world and learn about things. 302 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 2: We traveled in those days, first class, and you stayed 303 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 2: in the best hotels, and it was you were like 304 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 2: a dignitary. It was a different world for journals expect then. 305 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, now when you finally land at sixty minutes, you 306 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: join sixty Minutes in what year? 307 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: Is it eighty nine? 308 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: I think eighty nine, So eighty nine, fifty six plus 309 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: years after it started. Sixty Minutes is better and more 310 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: substantive than any other TV news program today, not just 311 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: in prime time, but still the gold standard. 312 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: Why do you think they maintained that authority because it 313 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: was a very good show. It came in generally followed 314 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: the NFL football games on CBS, which gave us a 315 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: huge leading, particularly among males. And it had a genius 316 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: and Don Hewett was the executive producer and sort of 317 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: the inventor of the show. And it had Mike Wallace 318 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: and Morley Safer and Ed Bradley and Leslie Stall and 319 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 2: you know the best. You know, all these people had, 320 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: like myself, gone out and done all the stuff that 321 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: I had done. And I think that was one of 322 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: the reasons why I was under consideration. You know, I've 323 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,920 Speaker 2: been overseas and knew how to handle myself. I could 324 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: was a good writer, but I think that the success 325 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: for the show was I think that people felt smart 326 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: watching it. We would take on very difficult subjects, but 327 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 2: we never talked down to the audience, and we would 328 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 2: go to great links to try and give the story 329 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 2: context and explain what was going on and why we 330 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 2: were doing this story. And people just they like that, 331 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: I think, and they learned something from it, and I 332 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: think that's really important. I mean television today and television 333 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: generally talks down to people. They don't give the audience 334 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: much credit for being smart, and I think sixty Minutes 335 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: did that, and I think the audience appreciated it. Also. 336 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: I thought people always thought sixty Minutes was a really 337 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: liberal show, and I don't think it was liberal. I 338 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 2: think that it was we did. There's no show in 339 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 2: tell Vision that did more stories about the waste and 340 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: dysfunction of the US government right than sixty minutes. 341 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: Right now, when you're working for the network prior to 342 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: the appointment to sixty Minutes, you're running against some of 343 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: these guys in a lot of headbutting with your competitors, 344 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: if you will, I mean the other guys on the show. 345 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: Reisner safer. You guys don't want to cover the same story. 346 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And that was even before sixty minutes when 347 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: your correspondence or no, yeah, no. 348 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: I had some huge fights with Morley when I was 349 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: in London over who is going to do what story? 350 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: Whether you know, I'd be I'd been working on it, 351 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: and he wanted to do the story with John Tiffin, 352 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: who is a very powerful producer, and we would, you know, 353 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: take the gloves off and have at it and have 354 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: at it. 355 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:43,360 Speaker 1: And then when you got on the show, the same 356 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: thing when it's sixteen minutes, same thing, A lot of competition. 357 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 2: Who's going to do what story? Yes, now you do it. 358 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: And one thing that was mentioned to me was you 359 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: interview me obviously every president during your term there and 360 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: their term you and you interview Obama several times. To me, 361 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: the presidency is you you have to have a special 362 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: land in your body to want to do that job 363 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: and believe you can succeed, especially the contemporary presidence, let's 364 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: say since nineteen eighty and as monolithic as the budget 365 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: is and everything, what was it you got from each 366 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: of them that you interviewed that you thought was the 367 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: reason they won? Name each president won by one that 368 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: you interviewed. Most of them I interviewed were just short, 369 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: short interviews, no long profiles, no long profiles, not sixty minutes. 370 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: The two presidents that I interviewed for sixty minutes were 371 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 1: Clinton several times and Obama many times. I think Obama 372 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: was a bit a class by himself, simply for the 373 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: fact that he was so knowledgeable and he was very articulate. 374 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: When you go down and interview with somebody in Washington, 375 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: whether it's the president or whatever, there's a lot of 376 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: things you ask them that they don't know, and they 377 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: constantly have to check with their aids, and they always 378 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: have them in the room. In all the times I interviewed, 379 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: Obama never stopped to ask any questions, and I never 380 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: had anybody maybe one time somebody from his staff called 381 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: and wanted to correct a small factual era. He knew 382 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: what he was talking about, and he was able to 383 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: give people, I think, a sense of what it was 384 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 1: like being in that job, which is why I liked 385 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: so much about interviewing. The reason we interviewed him so 386 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: many times. What sense did you get? What was his 387 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: view of the job. 388 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: Did he enjoy it? I think he enjoyed it less 389 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: over time. I think his wife never really she didn't 390 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: want him to run. Originally, the first time I interviewed 391 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: was the week before he declared, and she was very successful, 392 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: had her own career, and she had lived through time 393 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: in the Senate and he was gone all the time. 394 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 2: She hated that. I think both of them took great 395 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 2: solace in the fact that it was going to be Basically, 396 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: they had a place to live and he was going 397 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: to be there, so this will be together. Yeah, So 398 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 2: from a family point of view, it worked out very well. 399 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: I think he was ready to leave when he left, 400 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: and I think that I know that they had a deal. 401 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: You know that that you know that he was going 402 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 2: to be there for the eight years and then and 403 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: then it was going to be a private life of 404 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: a private life. 405 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: Well, I mean I interviewed Michael Wolfe when he had 406 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: Fire and Fury coming in right for his book about Trumph. 407 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 2: He's what a character he is. Yeah, he has a character. 408 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: But when we did Fire and Fury at town Hall, 409 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: and I said to him that the presidency is this 410 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: cockpit that very few people can ever occupy, and your 411 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: vista is something that's only the most singular experience in 412 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: the world. 413 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: You see the high high and the low low. 414 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: Is it only one man has gone into that cockpit 415 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 1: and come out of that cockpit unchanged, exactly the same 416 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: in his worldview and his behavior as went And that's Trump. 417 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: You didn't cover Trump obviously when he were you you 418 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: left the show what year? I left the show in 419 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, so you were there for the first three Trumps. 420 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: I was, But I didn't interview him. 421 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 2: Did you want to? I didn't want to. You didn't 422 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 2: why I didn't have the opportunity, And I watched other 423 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: people interview him, and he didn't answer any questions, and 424 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 2: you know, he's a bully, and it didn't seem to 425 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: be productive. 426 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: It wasn't what I wanted to do. And I knew 427 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 1: him from New York because he loved the press. He 428 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,199 Speaker 1: liked to hang around with reporters. And you know, if 429 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: you see him out in town, around town or at 430 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: a party or something like that. 431 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: Screening, he was in front of the camera. Yeah, he 432 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: just come up to you and schmooze. 433 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: Journalist and news correspondent Steve Kroft. If you're enjoying this conversation, 434 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 435 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get 436 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Steve Croft shares what 437 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: he thinks of journalism today and what has changed since 438 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: he started over fifty years ago. I I'm Alec Baldwin, 439 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. Steve Croft interviewed many 440 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: politicians throughout his impressive career. He famously spoke with President 441 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: Barack Obama sixteen times during his presidency. While he found 442 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: Obama to be highly informed on these subjects at hand, 443 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: I was curious what Croft thought of the current political 444 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: climate and the caliber of people we see in the 445 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: public eye today. What worries me even more, I think 446 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,959 Speaker 1: is that I think the two major political parties, the 447 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: only parties we have, are just in terrible shape. It's 448 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: hard to tell which one is in worse shape. I 449 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: think that the Democrats have plenty of problems and the 450 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: Republicans have lots of problems. And I don't think people 451 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: fel a real affinity for either party. 452 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,919 Speaker 2: And I think that Trump was elected. Somebody gave me 453 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 2: this analysis the other day. 454 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty interesting. It's you know, you 455 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 1: people out there. They don't pay that close attention to 456 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: what's going on, but they'll see clips of Trump on 457 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: television and they like what he said, and they like 458 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: the way he says it, and they want that and 459 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: they'll give it another you know, they'll give him another 460 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: shot without really knowing that much about his history, about 461 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: the criminal cases that had been brought against him, and 462 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: about what happened on January sixth. I think people very 463 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: easy for those people to say. 464 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 2: Well, this is just politics. 465 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: This it's just that this is the Democrats making throwing 466 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: a lot of dirt, and they don't really analyze it. 467 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: I think, you know, people in this country are not stupid, 468 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: and I think they're very upset with the way the country, 469 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: the shape that the country is in, the way it's 470 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: been run for a while, the levels of corruption, debt, 471 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: the debt, the income inequality, all of these things, the 472 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: medical system. 473 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: I mean, everybody has a lot of complaints. 474 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: But when you were the last season, you were doing 475 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: the show, you were doing sixty minutes, you knew how 476 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: far in advance, Like I'm always thinking of this in 477 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of a wistful way, how far away from you 478 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: leaving did you. 479 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 2: Know you were going to leave. I knew at the 480 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: beginning of the last year, so that last year you 481 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: knew would be her last year. I did for a 482 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: number of reasons. One, I had thought very seriously about 483 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,239 Speaker 2: leaving a couple of years before that. At the end 484 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: of every year, I would sit back, I'd say, do 485 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: I really want to do this anymore? The job? If 486 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: you did that job right, it was really a killer, really, 487 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: and I thought, you know, I was about to turn 488 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: seventy four. 489 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: I thought I'd been there. It was going to be 490 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: my fortieth year at CPS and my thirtieth year. At 491 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: sixty minutes, the numbers were all aligned, and I thought, Okay, 492 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do this anymore. 493 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 2: And also CBS was in a real state of turmoil, 494 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 2: which was not an insignificant part. 495 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: What happened to them, without you getting personal and whatever, 496 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: say what you can, but what do you think. 497 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: Happened to them? Well, I think that it was there's 498 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 2: no way to avoid this. I think that it started 499 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 2: with the merger between CBS and Viacom, and I think 500 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: that they were two different cultures and it was a 501 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: very painful, dirty split up. And last Moonvez was regardless 502 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: of what you think about some of the allegations that 503 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: were made, most of which were involved events long before 504 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: he came to CBS. Was very good at his job, 505 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: and he was a very powerful person in Hollywood. And 506 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: I think the people at Viacom are really mostly just 507 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: interested in the money. 508 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: So when you're looking at that last year, you're pretty clear, 509 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: now it's going to be your last year. 510 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 511 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: Do you pick the shows with an eye tour? Do 512 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: I want to have my final season? Did you do 513 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: picked them with an eye toward this is it? I 514 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: want to go out with a great year? 515 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? 516 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,159 Speaker 1: And you thought to yourself, well, I want to do 517 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: this person that I want to do this story. I 518 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 1: don't want to do that, right. Yes, you're a little 519 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: bit more precious about it that final year. Yeah, there 520 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: were things I wanted. Look, I had a rule with 521 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: my producers. I reserved the rut to say no to 522 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: any story I didn't want to do, and I would 523 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: not impose a story that the producers didn't want to 524 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: do on them. So when you were last year, what's 525 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 1: a story that really really spoke to you that you 526 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: really enjoyed doing. 527 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 2: I think one of the last stories I did was 528 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 2: about this place called the Isle of Egg, which was, 529 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: you know, just a little speck in the ocean. That 530 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 2: was a very interesting place, and I wanted to go 531 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 2: do that story, and I really wanted to do an 532 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 2: interview with Samuel L. Jackson, who I've always admired as 533 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: an actor and knew very little about him when I 534 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: started researching the story, and it ended up being one 535 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 2: of my favorite stories. Those are the two things. In 536 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 2: the last story I did was about money laundering, and 537 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 2: you know, talk about how things are screwed up in 538 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: the country and the corrupt level of the level of corruption. 539 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: This was mostly going on and written, but it was 540 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,720 Speaker 2: a story about a little bank, a Danish branch of 541 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: a Danish bank that was wandering all this money coming 542 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: out of the Soviet Union. And it was such this 543 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: the scam was so easy to pick and see, and 544 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: all the American banks knew about it, and they were 545 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: all handling this corrupt Russian money and only one bank, 546 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: Jamie and Jamie Diamond, You refused to do business with them. 547 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: Is there anybody, I mean, I'm sure there were some 548 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: name one or two where they surprised you in the interview, 549 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: they weren't at all what you thought they might be. 550 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: I'd say the biggest surprise was Clint Eastwood, because I 551 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 2: thought that he was, you know, the real macho man 552 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 2: and you know, staunch Republican and all this, which both 553 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,719 Speaker 2: of which are true, right, But he is a really 554 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: interesting character, very smart, great businessman, very polite, very well 555 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: mannered and interesting. I mean he had you know, he 556 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: wrote all the music, you know, he's for all of 557 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 2: his movies. He's multifaceted, multifaceted, and everybody loved him. And 558 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 2: he didn't have the best reputation. When I went out 559 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: there and started spending time with him, and you know, 560 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 2: stayed in touch with him over the years, I just 561 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: thought he was really a first class individual. Impressed you. Yes, 562 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the worst interview I ever tell you. 563 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 2: I'll rie Cardier Brossan, the French photographer earlier. He's a 564 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 2: great photographer, you know, one of the best, truly, but 565 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 2: he didn't want to talk about photography. He wanted to 566 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: talk about art, which was his new fascination, and he 567 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 2: didn't really want to talk at all. And he was 568 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,479 Speaker 2: a really old, glumpy Frenchman. And I was like, I 569 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 2: really regretted doing that story. 570 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: My last question for you, it started working in non 571 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: military journalism when you were thirty. If you were thirty 572 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: right now, would you become a journalist. I probably wouldn't. 573 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: I think the word journalism is it almost doesn't exist anymore. 574 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: I mean it does. I mean that's too harsh judgment. 575 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: The New York Times and the major newspapers are still 576 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: capable of doing really good journalism, but it doesn't exist 577 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 2: on the cable news networks for sure. It doesn't really exist, 578 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: with a few possible exceptions, on network television. So it's 579 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: hard to say. Because I had I mean to talk 580 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 2: about journalism, that's a whole other thing. I mean, journalism 581 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: is really in trouble. Yeah, I wanted to talk about, 582 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 2: to a certain extent, what's wrong with it and what 583 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: is that? And the same thing that's wrong with everything 584 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 2: else in this country right now, the corporate imperative. Money, 585 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: not so much the corporate imperative. It's historical. During COVID, 586 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: I was supposed to go out and give a speech 587 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: at the law school at the University of Iowa, and 588 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: it got postponed because of COVID, and I spent a 589 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 2: lot of time while during COVID trying to figure out 590 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: what I was going to say in this speech, and 591 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: people were stopping me on the street and saying, you're 592 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 2: in the news business. What's wrong with this country? Those 593 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: are really screwed up. It's not working the way it 594 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: used to. So I decided that I would do some 595 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 2: reporting on it and try to figure out what the 596 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 2: answer to the question was. I mean, I would usually 597 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: when people would come up to me, I'd say, I 598 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: just have some flip answer, like algorithms or you know. 599 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 2: And then I started reading up on it, and there 600 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 2: was this book that was written in nineteen seventy called 601 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 2: Future Shock Alvin Toffler, Yes, which just turned out to 602 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: be one of the most pressured books ever written because 603 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 2: it describes all the things that have happened. And at 604 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: the time he wrote it, all of the technology that 605 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: is screwing us up was in the incubator in science 606 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: slabs and MIT and places like that while they tried 607 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: to figure out, you know, how can we make money off? 608 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: And it's changed too fast. It's changed everything too fast, 609 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: and it's fractured our society and it's changed our institutions, 610 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 2: which is why nobody everybody feels so alienated, Toffler predicted. 611 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: He said, you know, it's going to be great opportunity. 612 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's going to make a lot of people 613 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 2: a lot of money, but it's going to have a 614 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: really not great effect on people on the population, and 615 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: talked about how the businesses and products were going to 616 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 2: become disposable, and entire industries would be disappear and be 617 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: replaced by something completely different. It would require people moving 618 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: out of neighborhoods and out of cities to go and 619 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 2: find work other places. It was going to be hard 620 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: on people, and I think that's the problem, and that's 621 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: why everything is kind of screwed up, because we're forced 622 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: now to change and deal with so many things that 623 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: are artists. Yes, it's very incredibly stressful, and people don't 624 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 2: quite know what to make of it and don't like it. 625 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: And I think it's one of the things that's happened 626 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: to journalism. We're now bombarded with so much information from 627 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: so many different sources, some of them really questionable. You've 628 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: got so many conflicting narratives you don't know who to believe, 629 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: and it's had this impact on our trust of institutions, 630 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: and that is one of the deeply rooted problems in 631 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: the country right now. 632 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 1: My thanks to journalist and former sixty Minutes correspondent Steve Kroft. 633 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 634 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: Were produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 635 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 636 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought 637 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio.