WEBVTT - Hard to Find a Fact. Lara Logan talks to Armstrong & Getty 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.720 Here it is another edition of Armstrong and Getty Extra Larch. 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:05.960 It's been too long, but here we are back again 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:10.360 with a friend and hero of ours. Lara Logan. Yeah, 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:13.080 who I think was the subject of our first Extra 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:17.319 Large podcast and we talked so much about Afghanistan in 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.600 places around the world and her history as a journalist. 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.080 Well now she's been out and making the rounds um 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:26.080 commenting on the state of journalism today and pretty harsh terms. 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:30.080 She's the former chief foreign correspondent for CBS News, one 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:32.880 of the great foreign correspondents of all time, Laura Logan. 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.879 Here's some headlines. U'm just gonna grab him around him 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.280 here from Fox News from yesterday. Gut Field on Laura 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:43.200 Logan's blunt truth on media bias from Deadline. Media Matters 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.960 punches back at Laura Logan's podcast. Interview from The Washington 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.280 Post Irony Alert, Laura Logan bashes liberal media from Variety. 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:53.720 Laura Logan and CBS News have parted ways. Okay, that's 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:57.200 in the news. We'll be talking about that. Um one 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.480 more I wanted to get to that I really like, Uh, Laura, 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:04.160 This is from the Washington Times. Laura Logan of CBS fame, 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:07.399 a hero to truth that's from today about that. What 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.480 a privilege to be able to interview somebody in the 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.479 middle of their career suicide. Ladies and gentlemen, it's our 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.920 old friend Laura Logan. Hello, Laura, are you are you 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:24.559 preparing the eulogy? Hey? So listen? Uh, no shock coming 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:29.759 from us. Fabulous job, um talking to uh the gent 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:33.840 you did on the podcast that's getting so much attention. Um. Uh, 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:38.520 it's God to those of us who who understand this, 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:41.040 it's just glass. It's just a fabulous thing to hear 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.200 somebody say it out loud. It's shocking that anybody's shocked 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.720 by what you've said to us. But well, I don't 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.640 know if people are shocked. I'm not really sure that, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.200 you know. I mean, I can't test what everyone thinks. 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:56.360 But if you see a lot of if you real 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:57.920 a lot of the reporting and listen to what people 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.200 are saying, nobody's really shocked. I think what's just captured 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.920 people's attention is that it's coming from me. And I've 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.520 been you know, and I've been a firm fixture of 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:09.560 that of the media establishment for all you know, a 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.200 long time now, and I but it should be no 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.480 shot to hear that coming from me, because it's not 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.840 like it's the first time. I mean, I went on 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.959 David Letterman and they asked me if I watched the 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.120 Iraq coverage, and I said, no, why would I do that? 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.440 It sucks. You know, that was during the war, a 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.360 long time ago, so um, so it's not you know, 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:30.960 this kind of talk for me is very consistent with 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:32.760 who I am as a person. I just tell it 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.880 like it is well, as I so often do. I've 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.680 i've I've leapt ahead because I know what I know, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:39.840 and I forget that not everybody knows what I know. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.120 Why don't we talk about, you know, some of the 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.560 things you're discussing with Mike Ritland about the state of 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.680 media and how you feel about it. Well, you know, 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:51.920 it's interesting because a lot of people reported on my 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.520 comments and they characterized my comments, but many of the 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:59.760 articles left out one simple fact, and which is that 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.320 d five percent of journalists in America are registered Democrats. 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.840 Now maybe that number has changed, maybe it's off by 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.120 a few percentage points in either direction. I'm sure someone 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.840 will come out with a statistic to prove that I'm wrong. 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:15.200 But the bottom line is that the vast majority of 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:20.840 journalists are registered Democrats, which means that ideologically, naturally they're predisposed, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.960 they lean left, and they're thinking now. Contrary to what 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.440 many people assume, there is actually a professional process that 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:31.320 we go through as journalists in order for us to 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:34.760 not set those biases and and opinions aside. You can't 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.960 divorce yourself from who you are as a person. It's 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:41.040 the biggest lie of our profession that we pretend we're objective. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:43.240 That's what I say over and over again to people. 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.720 Were not objective. We make subjective judgments with every word 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.720 we choose and everything we say, and who we interview 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.160 and how we where we structure them in the piece, 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:54.320 and how the story is written, and which stories are 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:58.360 covered exactly, and which stories are covered, which stories are 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.600 not covered. But the the thing is, you can't not 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:04.680 be human, you can't not have those opinions and biases. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.560 But what you can do is be professional about your 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.000 job and when you're doing it. Well, you know the 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.640 old rule of journalism, I didn't invent it, to sources 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.920 to direct sources. So if you use that rule, if 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:19.560 your sources can't be indirect, the conscience, be second hand 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:22.560 or third hand, you actually have to independently verify what 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.520 people say. Well, okay, then let's look at some of 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.760 that stuff that's out there. One person after another after 0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:32.240 another is allowed to offer their opinion and and reputable 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.159 publications print it without ever verifying it. That's how you 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:38.400 have a big story right now about you know some 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.840 guy who was an actor who faked an attack on himself. 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.560 Will Everyone just rushed to put that story out there 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:47.440 without verifying any of it, right because it's it reaffirmed 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:50.560 their beliefs and their biases. Whereas if they had used 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.080 the old rule of working to verify it and independently 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.440 corroborate it, then perhaps the coverage would have been different. 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.840 I can't say I didn't work that story. I don't. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.800 It's not even the best example for me. There are 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:05.280 much bigger examples than that one. But at the end 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.400 of the day, what we know is when we abandon 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.440 our journalistic standards and slide into the abyss, everybody knows 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.440 they don't really know what's gone wrong. They don't really 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.680 know exactly how to highlight it, or you know where 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.400 to look for the for the deception or the errors 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.600 on the mistakes. They just know it leaves a bad 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.520 taste in their mouth and a bad feeling in their guts. Well, 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:27.800 Jill Abramson, who's you know, making the rounds with her 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:29.680 books and when she was running the New York Times, 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:31.320 she says that a lot of the young people in 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:34.680 the newsroom, particularly around the issue of Trump, I feel 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.520 like things are so crazy now that that we have 0:05:37.680 --> 0:05:42.320 to abandon these old rules because things are this is important. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.039 We've got to bring this guy down. Is that some 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:48.479 of what's going on or what's driving this? Well, I 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.000 have to say I've never been in the New York 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.680 Time newsroom, right, so I mean I can only you know, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.359 I don't really know. I haven't seen that firsthand. I 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.840 haven't experienced at firsthand. But this is what I do know. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.839 And you know this too, because you're an old dog 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.240 like me. Right, when you've been around the block a 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.479 couple of times, you're much more skeptical and cynical about 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:08.520 what people say. For young people today, it's their first rodeo, 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.000 probably the first job they've had out of college. They 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.120 believe everything everybody tells them, and the only people they 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:16.159 disbelieve in question all the ones they don't like and 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:18.880 don't agree with. Well, I had the you know that, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:20.800 you know what beaten out of me by a bunch 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.800 of old cynical journalists when I was working on a 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.080 newspaper in South Africa. I'd come, you know, bounding off 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.279 the telephone. This is what the police told me. And 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.719 I get, you know, crapped on by everybody in the newsroom. Oh, 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:34.120 for God's say, you didn't believe that. Oh, well, don't 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.480 let them tell you that. You know this? All that right? 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.440 And I learned the hard way. Just because someone's in 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.720 a position of power authority doesn't mean they're telling you 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:45.359 the truth. We use power and authority today in the 0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:47.760 media world, and maybe we always have I don't know, 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:52.040 but we use that as credibility. This person held this job. 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:55.839 My ass is covered, therefore I'm printing it. That's what 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:59.640 I mean when I say one anonymous former administration source 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.039 after another, one anonymous FBI, soul software now or whoever 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.320 it happens to be. It doesn't matter. We just substitute. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.920 You can substitute any of those agencies. Well, that's good enough, right, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.080 because it came from an agency. And if it's wrong, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:13.880 I can say, well, that's what the White House said, 0:07:13.920 --> 0:07:16.400 that's what the FBI said, that's what d o J said, 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:19.040 So it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Well, 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.200 that's not journalism. I mean, I don't know if anyone's 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:25.840 standing going out there saying that's journalism. That's just blatant, 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:28.960 blatantly false. And young kids today they don't know that 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:31.680 they're coming out of journalism school. I never even went 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.440 to journalism school. I don't even know anyone who went 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.480 to journalism school. Everybody I knew, you know, was doing 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:41.280 this as because they were just nosy and they knew 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.960 how to not take no for an answer, and somehow 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:45.800 we all kind of ended up in this you know, 0:07:45.920 --> 0:07:50.720 this place we call journalist people, people willing to stick 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.680 their nose in other people's business. But at least where 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.520 I grew up, when I was, you know, my soul 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:58.680 was forged in the fires of journalism. It was in 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:01.320 the health fires of a part date South Africa, and 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.400 we believed in what we were doing. And even there 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.360 the lines were blurred. Even there, the coverage was about 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:10.960 evil whites and you know, and virtuous blacks fighting for 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.600 justice and equality and freedom and all of that was true. 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.360 I was on that side, but there were many not 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.840 evil white people, and there were many black people in 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.040 that struggle who lost their way and did terrible things. 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.960 And you know what Nelson Mandela and the leaders of 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.240 the A and C like so remiposed at that time, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.120 they would have been the first to tell you that. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.400 And that's what separates journalists from being activists and political 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:36.080 activists and political propagandists. My old boss at sixty Minutes 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:37.920 said it to me once when I was doing a 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:40.800 story about al Qaeda's returned to Afghanistan, and he said, 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.000 how's it going? And I told him, and he's like, Logan, 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.160 don't try too hard. Don't try too hard. You're not 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.440 in a court of law. You're not a lawyer trying 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.440 to prove a case. Your journalist follow the facts to 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:54.360 where they take you. And I said, but I know this, 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:56.080 and I know this, and I know this. And he said, 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:59.000 then fine, if it's true, you'll find what you need 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:00.960 and if you don't get it now, we'll do it 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.440 when you get it. But we're not forcing it because 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.600 that's not our job. I just want interesting. Wow. I 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.400 just wonder whether whether young journalists or you know whomever 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:13.840 aren't even aspiring to what you're talking about, though, whether 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.200 it's desperation for eyes and ears and revenue, or that's 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.120 our fault because the old dogs have to teach the 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.559 new dogs how it's supposed to be done. They come 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:26.439 out of institutions where they're only Let's face it, how 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.600 many universities in America, how many colleges today are on 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.640 the right? I think it's Prague University stands like a 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.280 pretty lonely It's got a lonely spot all the way 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:37.760 over there on the right hand side of the political spectrum, 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:43.840 right past. Majority of colleges and professors and academia today 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:45.840 in this country and in other parts of the world 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:49.120 there on the left. And so you and what you 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.640 are seeing as conservative movements, as student movements that are 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:55.920 rising up today in protest against this. Well, when I 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:58.720 grew up in college, I mean they were running battles 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.280 and tear gas and orotests with the police. It was 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.160 it was a place where every idea was tested and 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.080 you learned who you were and what you were made 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.040 of and what you believed in, and that was part 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:10.800 of your journey into life. And now they seem to 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:15.120 be factories for one political ideology, which I don't even 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:18.319 have a problem with the ideology itself. In fact, if anything, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:21.400 I'm a product of that ideology, right I mean in 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.840 South Africa, I didn't grow up as a conservative right winger, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.040 you know what I mean. It's like it's crazy to me. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:33.640 Although although a liberal nineteen four liberal is a reactionary 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:37.839 in two thousand, nineteen hell nine liberal is an arch 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:39.920 conservative these days, so you know you have to be 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.920 careful comparing ideologies across time. I just want to say 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.720 one thing. If I say anything loudly and clearly, clearly, 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.920 louder than anything else, I want to say, if there 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.280 is any person out there or any group that is 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.079 trying to paint me as some kind of right winger 0:10:57.440 --> 0:11:01.240 or some kind of conservative, I reject every fiber of 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:05.439 my being and my soul. I reject that with everything 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.280 in me. I am not a politician and I am 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.960 not going to be labeled by any of them. I 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.000 do my job the same way no matter who's in power. 0:11:15.400 --> 0:11:17.000 No matter who's in power, I do it the same 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:20.359 way at sixty minutes as I did at a newspaper 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.080 in South Africa when I was filing for radio stations. Okay, 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.440 if you're a journalist, you and your person who lives 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:30.840 to the same principles, you're consistent, and I am consistent. 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:34.200 And you know people who have people have come after me. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.480 A few people have come after me now saying, oh, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.640 you know, the failures of my being Ghazi story, for example, 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.840 were journalistic not political. Oh really, I love I love 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.640 when people who are not even real journalists themselves, who 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.640 have not done a day or even five seconds of 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.600 real journalism in their life, come out pointing their finger 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.000 at you. And you know, I didn't talk about it 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.520 for a long time because I wanted the apology to 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.680 stand because it wasn't about me. It was about something 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:02.680 much bigger than me, and it was about other people, 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:04.640 and it was about standing up and doing the right thing. 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:06.560 And I stood up and did the right thing, and 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:08.520 I took it on the chin. But not all the 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.920 facts are out on the table. And I'm just gonna 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:16.120 say the most, the most. The greatest impediment to my producer, 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.640 Max mcclearden and I being able to do what was 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:23.680 journalistic gay required on parts of that story were a 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.080 non disclosure agreement, a legal agreement written by CBS's lawyers 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:29.960 that we signed with the people who wrote that book, 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.120 and we did everything else journalistically that we could outside 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:35.360 of that. We even went to the State Department and 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.200 had them they cleared this person. Don't forget. They went 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.600 through the state departments clearing, you know, Clarence process right, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.720 and was given a job that is supposed to be highly, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.560 highly secretive and at a high level of classification. So 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.280 you've got people who are cleared. We confirmed everything that 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:54.600 we could, but we never violated the terms of that 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.720 legal agreement, and that's been portrayed as sloppy journalism because 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.079 it was left out. Nobody knew that we signed that 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.320 why because it was left out, left out of all 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.080 the reporting, was led left out of all the reports. 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:08.120 And you're talking about the guy who not on the chin, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.880 you're talking about the guy who misled you about certain 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:15.080 aspects of the Benghazi attack. Well, that guy disappeared. So 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:16.760 I don't know what happened to him. I don't know 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.520 what he told, the truth about him, what he didn't, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.760 because he's gone, and other people were left to, you know, 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.360 say things to other reporters secretly, you know, and and 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:28.800 no one including the FBI ever went on the record, 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.280 So I don't know what the truth is. Did he lie? 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:33.559 He probably lied. I don't know how much he liked 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.080 about There were only two parts of his story that 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.840 we're called into question. But what's interesting here is that 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.679 the whole story disappeared. Yeah, I guess I'm just confused 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.520 about how the nondisclosure agreement enters into it. But you'd 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.840 probably have to disclose something. Yes, I will explain that better. 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.480 So this guy was one of three main characters in 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.120 our Sorry, I'll say that again. This guy was one 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.800 of three characters in our story, the guy who's two 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.600 parts of his account were called into question and we 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:03.000 had an He wrote a book, and as many many 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.520 many people do when they write books, they have none 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.120 just they publishers have nondisclosure agreements so that you can't 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.760 scoop them on their own book, and you can't go 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.120 out there and tell people what their book is about 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.520 before their book comes out, except the night before it's time, 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.560 so that it's on sixty minutes on the Sunday night, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.880 and the book comes out Sunday or Monday, and so 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.080 it's time to come out together, and you don't scoop 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.440 them on their own book. Well, in this case, it 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.440 was particularly sensitive and there were a lot of you know, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.120 um of concerns about it getting out. So this is 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.960 a standard nondisclosure agreement that CBS IS lawyers wrote and 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.840 had us sign. And afterwards, you know, I was criticized 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.480 by media reporters, you know, for um because I didn't, 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.200 you know, do my job and we didn't do basic journalism. 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.600 Well they don't even know. They don't even know because 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.160 they didn't do basic journalism. They all wrote about a 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:56.400 story that half of them didn't even watch. I've been 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.280 watching sixty minutes since as a little kid, and it 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:00.920 might be the most important u TV news show in 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.040 the world. Um, certainly in America. You're with it for 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:05.960 a very long time. Is it as good now as 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.520 it used to be? Is there a slide going on there? 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.880 How do you see it? I don't know, you know, 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.000 that's that kind of uh. Your question is is worse 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.560 professional suicide than my interview? Come on, I'm not gonna 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.440 you know, I don't want to speculate on whether it's 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.840 better or worse. I would say the environment now is 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:27.600 worse because you have politically motivated and funded propaganda organizations 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:31.360 who use their allies spread across the media to target 0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.640 journalists and journalistic organizations, and everyone is terrified to say anything. 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.760 You say one thing wrong, you do one thing, and 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.760 suddenly there's an outcry and everyone's baying for blood. We 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.880 don't live in an environment that's conducive to honest reporting 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.520 because independent voices are being stifled. You know, no corporation 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.360 is going to back you if it's controversial. They're dropping 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.520 you like heartcakes. So um, you know, it's a different 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.440 environment today. I think it's almost an unfair question, not 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.320 just to ask of me, but it's an unfair question 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.360 to ask in lots of ways. I mean, when you're 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.560 the only dog in town, you're the only show on 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:08.520 a Sunday night, and you're the only news magazine program 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:10.840 and there are no cable channels and no twenty four 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:13.400 hour and yous, it's easy to be the most important people, right, 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.520 I mean, because there's nowhere else for anyone to go, now, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.600 I know. I mean, I believe in the show. I 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.480 believe in the work um that they do. Sometimes sometimes 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.360 I like the stories and love them and they reinspire 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.560 me and motivate me, and sometimes I hate them and 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.600 I and I know I could have done a better job, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.720 but that's not really my you know, I don't I 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:35.160 don't look back. Well, one of the reasons. One of 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:36.720 the reasons I asked, and I don't know how much 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.880 you know or cross paths with Cheryl Atkinson who was 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.960 with CBS. We like her and we've talked to her 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:45.800 a lot, and she's written books. But she definitely felt 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.800 like the CBS Evening News, which she was a part 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.440 of for a long time, slid over the years as 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:52.720 they got they do. They'd come up with she'd come 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.000 up with the story, there'd be pushed back, there'd be 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.240 lobbying against the story, um by by powerful groups, and 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.880 they would dump story. And she felt they got they 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.480 had less guts there towards the end than they did 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.480 earlier on. Or they would run with the weather in 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.399 the Midwest just to avoid having to cover hard with 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.879 another weather story. Well, you know, that's that's very interesting, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:17.000 um that Cheryl says that, Look, that's her experience. And 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:20.840 I have the greatest respect for Cheryl. She's actually speaking 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.240 from things that she lived through. She's not making it 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:25.720 up and she's not speculating, so I don't doubt what 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:30.520 she's saying for a second. I somehow sidestepped all of 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.399 that because when I was in the battlefield, you know, 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.280 in all these places, they were usually so stunned that 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.359 I made it there and I was still alive that 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.120 nobody messed with me. And because I was out there 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.080 and far away most of the time, I dodged a 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.200 lot of the bullets that she was, you know, having 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.720 to face every day. And I was not prepared for 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.119 politics in America, if anything. You know, one of the 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.959 greatest lessons that I learned was that when you do 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.119 something of significance, it's not the significant parts you have 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.880 to worry about, you know, it's the parts that are irrelevant. 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.679 That's where they're going to hit you. Because the significant parts, 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:09.280 the really solid parts that you've poured your heart and 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:12.520 soul and every bit of energy you have into confirming 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:15.000 and reconfirming and you know what true, and they go 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.080 against a conventional wisdom and everything else, but you can 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.800 stand by them till the day you die because you've 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.800 you have you know that that's the truth. Right, Those 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.240 are the pots they go after because they can't go 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.320 after the truth. They can't take those pots down. They 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.640 go after the meaningless pots that are irrelevant, and they 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.840 just use perception and they use the tools of information 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.800 wolf fit today, you know, all across social media and 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.960 cable news and everything else. They use these propaganda organizations 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:44.560 and they target you and they pour money into it, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:46.719 and they have armies of people who can do this 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:52.560 from morning tonight, and corporations fold individuals fold people like me. 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:54.480 You know, I'll tell you one of the people in 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.560 boltingness that across me and in the midst of you know, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.919 my roma after a big gagy story and said to me, 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.720 I can't believe you haven't quit. And that's when I realized, 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.240 oh my god, they want me to quit. They want 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:09.679 me to lie down and die. They want me to 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.680 fade off into obscurity, they want me to slip into 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:18.120 the dock. And that's not who I am. Well, yeah, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.959 and we get that just because we get bitched at 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.800 from a hundred different directions every single day, and we 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.600 understand that if you're not the sort of person who's 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.159 gonna you know, grimace or grin at that and plunge on, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:31.560 you're not in this line of work. To begin with. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.720 But I wish the world would get a little more hip, 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.280 and I think maybe maybe corporations will that this sort 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:40.960 of you know, I hate the term masterturf because it's 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:46.120 become a cliche, but that's sort of momentary, internet driven 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.800 feigned outrage thing. Just take a deep breath, hold your 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:52.240 breath for as long as you can. By the time 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.399 you blow it out, it'll they'll be on to something else. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:57.800 And I just it's like my kids. My kids arrange 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.119 in age from nine six and then are well. My 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.560 son introduced me to the term dad hate is gonna hate. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.280 He's like, who cares, that's it. He is gonna hate. 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.800