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Speaker 1: Here it is another edition of Armstrong and Getty Extra Larch.

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Speaker 1: It's been too long, but here we are back again

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Speaker 1: with a friend and hero of ours. Lara Logan. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: who I think was the subject of our first Extra

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Speaker 1: Large podcast and we talked so much about Afghanistan in

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Speaker 1: places around the world and her history as a journalist.

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Speaker 1: Well now she's been out and making the rounds um

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Speaker 1: commenting on the state of journalism today and pretty harsh terms.

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Speaker 1: She's the former chief foreign correspondent for CBS News, one

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Speaker 1: of the great foreign correspondents of all time, Laura Logan.

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Speaker 1: Here's some headlines. U'm just gonna grab him around him

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Speaker 1: here from Fox News from yesterday. Gut Field on Laura

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Speaker 1: Logan's blunt truth on media bias from Deadline. Media Matters

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Speaker 1: punches back at Laura Logan's podcast. Interview from The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post Irony Alert, Laura Logan bashes liberal media from Variety.

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Speaker 1: Laura Logan and CBS News have parted ways. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: in the news. We'll be talking about that. Um one

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Speaker 1: more I wanted to get to that I really like, Uh, Laura,

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Speaker 1: This is from the Washington Times. Laura Logan of CBS fame,

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Speaker 1: a hero to truth that's from today about that. What

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Speaker 1: a privilege to be able to interview somebody in the

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Speaker 1: middle of their career suicide. Ladies and gentlemen, it's our

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Speaker 1: old friend Laura Logan. Hello, Laura, are you are you

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Speaker 1: preparing the eulogy? Hey? So listen? Uh, no shock coming

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Speaker 1: from us. Fabulous job, um talking to uh the gent

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Speaker 1: you did on the podcast that's getting so much attention. Um. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's God to those of us who who understand this,

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Speaker 1: it's just glass. It's just a fabulous thing to hear

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Speaker 1: somebody say it out loud. It's shocking that anybody's shocked

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Speaker 1: by what you've said to us. But well, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if people are shocked. I'm not really sure that,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I can't test what everyone thinks.

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Speaker 1: But if you see a lot of if you real

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Speaker 1: a lot of the reporting and listen to what people

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Speaker 1: are saying, nobody's really shocked. I think what's just captured

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Speaker 1: people's attention is that it's coming from me. And I've

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Speaker 1: been you know, and I've been a firm fixture of

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Speaker 1: that of the media establishment for all you know, a

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Speaker 1: long time now, and I but it should be no

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Speaker 1: shot to hear that coming from me, because it's not

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Speaker 1: like it's the first time. I mean, I went on

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Speaker 1: David Letterman and they asked me if I watched the

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Speaker 1: Iraq coverage, and I said, no, why would I do that?

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Speaker 1: It sucks. You know, that was during the war, a

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Speaker 1: long time ago, so um, so it's not you know,

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Speaker 1: this kind of talk for me is very consistent with

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Speaker 1: who I am as a person. I just tell it

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Speaker 1: like it is well, as I so often do. I've

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Speaker 1: i've I've leapt ahead because I know what I know,

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Speaker 1: and I forget that not everybody knows what I know.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we talk about, you know, some of the

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Speaker 1: things you're discussing with Mike Ritland about the state of

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Speaker 1: media and how you feel about it. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because a lot of people reported on my

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Speaker 1: comments and they characterized my comments, but many of the

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Speaker 1: articles left out one simple fact, and which is that

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Speaker 1: d five percent of journalists in America are registered Democrats.

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Speaker 1: Now maybe that number has changed, maybe it's off by

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Speaker 1: a few percentage points in either direction. I'm sure someone

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Speaker 1: will come out with a statistic to prove that I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: But the bottom line is that the vast majority of

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Speaker 1: journalists are registered Democrats, which means that ideologically, naturally they're predisposed,

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Speaker 1: they lean left, and they're thinking now. Contrary to what

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Speaker 1: many people assume, there is actually a professional process that

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Speaker 1: we go through as journalists in order for us to

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Speaker 1: not set those biases and and opinions aside. You can't

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Speaker 1: divorce yourself from who you are as a person. It's

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Speaker 1: the biggest lie of our profession that we pretend we're objective.

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Speaker 1: That's what I say over and over again to people.

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Speaker 1: Were not objective. We make subjective judgments with every word

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Speaker 1: we choose and everything we say, and who we interview

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Speaker 1: and how we where we structure them in the piece,

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Speaker 1: and how the story is written, and which stories are

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Speaker 1: covered exactly, and which stories are covered, which stories are

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Speaker 1: not covered. But the the thing is, you can't not

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Speaker 1: be human, you can't not have those opinions and biases.

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Speaker 1: But what you can do is be professional about your

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Speaker 1: job and when you're doing it. Well, you know the

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Speaker 1: old rule of journalism, I didn't invent it, to sources

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Speaker 1: to direct sources. So if you use that rule, if

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Speaker 1: your sources can't be indirect, the conscience, be second hand

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Speaker 1: or third hand, you actually have to independently verify what

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Speaker 1: people say. Well, okay, then let's look at some of

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Speaker 1: that stuff that's out there. One person after another after

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Speaker 1: another is allowed to offer their opinion and and reputable

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Speaker 1: publications print it without ever verifying it. That's how you

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Speaker 1: have a big story right now about you know some

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Speaker 1: guy who was an actor who faked an attack on himself.

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Speaker 1: Will Everyone just rushed to put that story out there

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Speaker 1: without verifying any of it, right because it's it reaffirmed

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Speaker 1: their beliefs and their biases. Whereas if they had used

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Speaker 1: the old rule of working to verify it and independently

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Speaker 1: corroborate it, then perhaps the coverage would have been different.

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Speaker 1: I can't say I didn't work that story. I don't.

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Speaker 1: It's not even the best example for me. There are

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Speaker 1: much bigger examples than that one. But at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, what we know is when we abandon

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Speaker 1: our journalistic standards and slide into the abyss, everybody knows

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Speaker 1: they don't really know what's gone wrong. They don't really

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Speaker 1: know exactly how to highlight it, or you know where

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Speaker 1: to look for the for the deception or the errors

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Speaker 1: on the mistakes. They just know it leaves a bad

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Speaker 1: taste in their mouth and a bad feeling in their guts. Well,

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Speaker 1: Jill Abramson, who's you know, making the rounds with her

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Speaker 1: books and when she was running the New York Times,

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Speaker 1: she says that a lot of the young people in

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Speaker 1: the newsroom, particularly around the issue of Trump, I feel

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Speaker 1: like things are so crazy now that that we have

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Speaker 1: to abandon these old rules because things are this is important.

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Speaker 1: We've got to bring this guy down. Is that some

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Speaker 1: of what's going on or what's driving this? Well, I

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Speaker 1: have to say I've never been in the New York

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Speaker 1: Time newsroom, right, so I mean I can only you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't really know. I haven't seen that firsthand. I

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Speaker 1: haven't experienced at firsthand. But this is what I do know.

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Speaker 1: And you know this too, because you're an old dog

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Speaker 1: like me. Right, when you've been around the block a

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Speaker 1: couple of times, you're much more skeptical and cynical about

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Speaker 1: what people say. For young people today, it's their first rodeo,

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Speaker 1: probably the first job they've had out of college. They

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Speaker 1: believe everything everybody tells them, and the only people they

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Speaker 1: disbelieve in question all the ones they don't like and

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Speaker 1: don't agree with. Well, I had the you know that,

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Speaker 1: you know what beaten out of me by a bunch

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Speaker 1: of old cynical journalists when I was working on a

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Speaker 1: newspaper in South Africa. I'd come, you know, bounding off

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Speaker 1: the telephone. This is what the police told me. And

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Speaker 1: I get, you know, crapped on by everybody in the newsroom. Oh,

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Speaker 1: for God's say, you didn't believe that. Oh, well, don't

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Speaker 1: let them tell you that. You know this? All that right?

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Speaker 1: And I learned the hard way. Just because someone's in

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Speaker 1: a position of power authority doesn't mean they're telling you

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Speaker 1: the truth. We use power and authority today in the

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Speaker 1: media world, and maybe we always have I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but we use that as credibility. This person held this job.

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Speaker 1: My ass is covered, therefore I'm printing it. That's what

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Speaker 1: I mean when I say one anonymous former administration source

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Speaker 1: after another, one anonymous FBI, soul software now or whoever

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Speaker 1: it happens to be. It doesn't matter. We just substitute.

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Speaker 1: You can substitute any of those agencies. Well, that's good enough, right,

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Speaker 1: because it came from an agency. And if it's wrong,

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Speaker 1: I can say, well, that's what the White House said,

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Speaker 1: that's what the FBI said, that's what d o J said,

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's not journalism. I mean, I don't know if anyone's

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Speaker 1: standing going out there saying that's journalism. That's just blatant,

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Speaker 1: blatantly false. And young kids today they don't know that

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Speaker 1: they're coming out of journalism school. I never even went

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Speaker 1: to journalism school. I don't even know anyone who went

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Speaker 1: to journalism school. Everybody I knew, you know, was doing

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Speaker 1: this as because they were just nosy and they knew

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Speaker 1: how to not take no for an answer, and somehow

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Speaker 1: we all kind of ended up in this you know,

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Speaker 1: this place we call journalist people, people willing to stick

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Speaker 1: their nose in other people's business. But at least where

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Speaker 1: I grew up, when I was, you know, my soul

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Speaker 1: was forged in the fires of journalism. It was in

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Speaker 1: the health fires of a part date South Africa, and

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Speaker 1: we believed in what we were doing. And even there

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Speaker 1: the lines were blurred. Even there, the coverage was about

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Speaker 1: evil whites and you know, and virtuous blacks fighting for

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Speaker 1: justice and equality and freedom and all of that was true.

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Speaker 1: I was on that side, but there were many not

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Speaker 1: evil white people, and there were many black people in

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Speaker 1: that struggle who lost their way and did terrible things.

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Speaker 1: And you know what Nelson Mandela and the leaders of

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Speaker 1: the A and C like so remiposed at that time,

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Speaker 1: they would have been the first to tell you that.

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Speaker 1: And that's what separates journalists from being activists and political

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Speaker 1: activists and political propagandists. My old boss at sixty Minutes

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Speaker 1: said it to me once when I was doing a

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Speaker 1: story about al Qaeda's returned to Afghanistan, and he said,

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Speaker 1: how's it going? And I told him, and he's like, Logan,

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Speaker 1: don't try too hard. Don't try too hard. You're not

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Speaker 1: in a court of law. You're not a lawyer trying

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Speaker 1: to prove a case. Your journalist follow the facts to

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Speaker 1: where they take you. And I said, but I know this,

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Speaker 1: and I know this, and I know this. And he said,

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Speaker 1: then fine, if it's true, you'll find what you need

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Speaker 1: and if you don't get it now, we'll do it

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Speaker 1: when you get it. But we're not forcing it because

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Speaker 1: that's not our job. I just want interesting. Wow. I

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Speaker 1: just wonder whether whether young journalists or you know whomever

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Speaker 1: aren't even aspiring to what you're talking about, though, whether

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Speaker 1: it's desperation for eyes and ears and revenue, or that's

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Speaker 1: our fault because the old dogs have to teach the

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Speaker 1: new dogs how it's supposed to be done. They come

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Speaker 1: out of institutions where they're only Let's face it, how

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Speaker 1: many universities in America, how many colleges today are on

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Speaker 1: the right? I think it's Prague University stands like a

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Speaker 1: pretty lonely It's got a lonely spot all the way

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Speaker 1: over there on the right hand side of the political spectrum,

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Speaker 1: right past. Majority of colleges and professors and academia today

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Speaker 1: in this country and in other parts of the world

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Speaker 1: there on the left. And so you and what you

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Speaker 1: are seeing as conservative movements, as student movements that are

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Speaker 1: rising up today in protest against this. Well, when I

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Speaker 1: grew up in college, I mean they were running battles

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Speaker 1: and tear gas and orotests with the police. It was

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Speaker 1: it was a place where every idea was tested and

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Speaker 1: you learned who you were and what you were made

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Speaker 1: of and what you believed in, and that was part

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Speaker 1: of your journey into life. And now they seem to

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Speaker 1: be factories for one political ideology, which I don't even

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Speaker 1: have a problem with the ideology itself. In fact, if anything,

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Speaker 1: I'm a product of that ideology, right I mean in

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Speaker 1: South Africa, I didn't grow up as a conservative right winger,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's like it's crazy to me.

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Speaker 1: Although although a liberal nineteen four liberal is a reactionary

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Speaker 1: in two thousand, nineteen hell nine liberal is an arch

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Speaker 1: conservative these days, so you know you have to be

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Speaker 1: careful comparing ideologies across time. I just want to say

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Speaker 1: one thing. If I say anything loudly and clearly, clearly,

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Speaker 1: louder than anything else, I want to say, if there

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Speaker 1: is any person out there or any group that is

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Speaker 1: trying to paint me as some kind of right winger

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Speaker 1: or some kind of conservative, I reject every fiber of

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Speaker 1: my being and my soul. I reject that with everything

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Speaker 1: in me. I am not a politician and I am

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Speaker 1: not going to be labeled by any of them. I

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Speaker 1: do my job the same way no matter who's in power.

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Speaker 1: No matter who's in power, I do it the same

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Speaker 1: way at sixty minutes as I did at a newspaper

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Speaker 1: in South Africa when I was filing for radio stations. Okay,

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Speaker 1: if you're a journalist, you and your person who lives

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Speaker 1: to the same principles, you're consistent, and I am consistent.

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Speaker 1: And you know people who have people have come after me.

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Speaker 1: A few people have come after me now saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the failures of my being Ghazi story, for example,

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Speaker 1: were journalistic not political. Oh really, I love I love

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Speaker 1: when people who are not even real journalists themselves, who

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Speaker 1: have not done a day or even five seconds of

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Speaker 1: real journalism in their life, come out pointing their finger

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Speaker 1: at you. And you know, I didn't talk about it

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Speaker 1: for a long time because I wanted the apology to

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Speaker 1: stand because it wasn't about me. It was about something

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Speaker 1: much bigger than me, and it was about other people,

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Speaker 1: and it was about standing up and doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: And I stood up and did the right thing, and

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Speaker 1: I took it on the chin. But not all the

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Speaker 1: facts are out on the table. And I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: say the most, the most. The greatest impediment to my producer,

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Speaker 1: Max mcclearden and I being able to do what was

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Speaker 1: journalistic gay required on parts of that story were a

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Speaker 1: non disclosure agreement, a legal agreement written by CBS's lawyers

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Speaker 1: that we signed with the people who wrote that book,

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Speaker 1: and we did everything else journalistically that we could outside

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Speaker 1: of that. We even went to the State Department and

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Speaker 1: had them they cleared this person. Don't forget. They went

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Speaker 1: through the state departments clearing, you know, Clarence process right,

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Speaker 1: and was given a job that is supposed to be highly,

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Speaker 1: highly secretive and at a high level of classification. So

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Speaker 1: you've got people who are cleared. We confirmed everything that

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Speaker 1: we could, but we never violated the terms of that

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Speaker 1: legal agreement, and that's been portrayed as sloppy journalism because

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Speaker 1: it was left out. Nobody knew that we signed that

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Speaker 1: why because it was left out, left out of all

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Speaker 1: the reporting, was led left out of all the reports.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking about the guy who not on the chin,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the guy who misled you about certain

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Speaker 1: aspects of the Benghazi attack. Well, that guy disappeared. So

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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened to him. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what he told, the truth about him, what he didn't,

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Speaker 1: because he's gone, and other people were left to, you know,

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Speaker 1: say things to other reporters secretly, you know, and and

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Speaker 1: no one including the FBI ever went on the record,

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Speaker 1: So I don't know what the truth is. Did he lie?

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Speaker 1: He probably lied. I don't know how much he liked

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Speaker 1: about There were only two parts of his story that

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Speaker 1: we're called into question. But what's interesting here is that

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Speaker 1: the whole story disappeared. Yeah, I guess I'm just confused

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Speaker 1: about how the nondisclosure agreement enters into it. But you'd

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Speaker 1: probably have to disclose something. Yes, I will explain that better.

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Speaker 1: So this guy was one of three main characters in

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Speaker 1: our Sorry, I'll say that again. This guy was one

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Speaker 1: of three characters in our story, the guy who's two

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Speaker 1: parts of his account were called into question and we

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Speaker 1: had an He wrote a book, and as many many

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Speaker 1: many people do when they write books, they have none

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Speaker 1: just they publishers have nondisclosure agreements so that you can't

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Speaker 1: scoop them on their own book, and you can't go

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Speaker 1: out there and tell people what their book is about

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Speaker 1: before their book comes out, except the night before it's time,

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Speaker 1: so that it's on sixty minutes on the Sunday night,

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Speaker 1: and the book comes out Sunday or Monday, and so

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Speaker 1: it's time to come out together, and you don't scoop

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Speaker 1: them on their own book. Well, in this case, it

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Speaker 1: was particularly sensitive and there were a lot of you know,

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Speaker 1: um of concerns about it getting out. So this is

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Speaker 1: a standard nondisclosure agreement that CBS IS lawyers wrote and

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Speaker 1: had us sign. And afterwards, you know, I was criticized

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Speaker 1: by media reporters, you know, for um because I didn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, do my job and we didn't do basic journalism.

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Speaker 1: Well they don't even know. They don't even know because

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Speaker 1: they didn't do basic journalism. They all wrote about a

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Speaker 1: story that half of them didn't even watch. I've been

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Speaker 1: watching sixty minutes since as a little kid, and it

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Speaker 1: might be the most important u TV news show in

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Speaker 1: the world. Um, certainly in America. You're with it for

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Speaker 1: a very long time. Is it as good now as

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Speaker 1: it used to be? Is there a slide going on there?

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Speaker 1: How do you see it? I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that kind of uh. Your question is is worse

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Speaker 1: professional suicide than my interview? Come on, I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to speculate on whether it's

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Speaker 1: better or worse. I would say the environment now is

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Speaker 1: worse because you have politically motivated and funded propaganda organizations

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Speaker 1: who use their allies spread across the media to target

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Speaker 1: journalists and journalistic organizations, and everyone is terrified to say anything.

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Speaker 1: You say one thing wrong, you do one thing, and

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Speaker 1: suddenly there's an outcry and everyone's baying for blood. We

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Speaker 1: don't live in an environment that's conducive to honest reporting

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Speaker 1: because independent voices are being stifled. You know, no corporation

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Speaker 1: is going to back you if it's controversial. They're dropping

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Speaker 1: you like heartcakes. So um, you know, it's a different

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Speaker 1: environment today. I think it's almost an unfair question, not

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Speaker 1: just to ask of me, but it's an unfair question

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Speaker 1: to ask in lots of ways. I mean, when you're

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Speaker 1: the only dog in town, you're the only show on

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Speaker 1: a Sunday night, and you're the only news magazine program

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Speaker 1: and there are no cable channels and no twenty four

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Speaker 1: hour and yous, it's easy to be the most important people, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because there's nowhere else for anyone to go, now,

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Speaker 1: I know. I mean, I believe in the show. I

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Speaker 1: believe in the work um that they do. Sometimes sometimes

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Speaker 1: I like the stories and love them and they reinspire

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Speaker 1: me and motivate me, and sometimes I hate them and

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Speaker 1: I and I know I could have done a better job,

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Speaker 1: but that's not really my you know, I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't look back. Well, one of the reasons. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons I asked, and I don't know how much

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Speaker 1: you know or cross paths with Cheryl Atkinson who was

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Speaker 1: with CBS. We like her and we've talked to her

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Speaker 1: a lot, and she's written books. But she definitely felt

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Speaker 1: like the CBS Evening News, which she was a part

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Speaker 1: of for a long time, slid over the years as

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Speaker 1: they got they do. They'd come up with she'd come

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Speaker 1: up with the story, there'd be pushed back, there'd be

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Speaker 1: lobbying against the story, um by by powerful groups, and

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Speaker 1: they would dump story. And she felt they got they

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Speaker 1: had less guts there towards the end than they did

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Speaker 1: earlier on. Or they would run with the weather in

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Speaker 1: the Midwest just to avoid having to cover hard with

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Speaker 1: another weather story. Well, you know, that's that's very interesting,

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Speaker 1: um that Cheryl says that, Look, that's her experience. And

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Speaker 1: I have the greatest respect for Cheryl. She's actually speaking

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Speaker 1: from things that she lived through. She's not making it

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Speaker 1: up and she's not speculating, so I don't doubt what

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Speaker 1: she's saying for a second. I somehow sidestepped all of

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Speaker 1: that because when I was in the battlefield, you know,

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Speaker 1: in all these places, they were usually so stunned that

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Speaker 1: I made it there and I was still alive that

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Speaker 1: nobody messed with me. And because I was out there

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Speaker 1: and far away most of the time, I dodged a

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Speaker 1: lot of the bullets that she was, you know, having

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Speaker 1: to face every day. And I was not prepared for

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Speaker 1: politics in America, if anything. You know, one of the

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Speaker 1: greatest lessons that I learned was that when you do

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Speaker 1: something of significance, it's not the significant parts you have

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Speaker 1: to worry about, you know, it's the parts that are irrelevant.

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Speaker 1: That's where they're going to hit you. Because the significant parts,

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Speaker 1: the really solid parts that you've poured your heart and

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Speaker 1: soul and every bit of energy you have into confirming

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Speaker 1: and reconfirming and you know what true, and they go

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Speaker 1: against a conventional wisdom and everything else, but you can

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Speaker 1: stand by them till the day you die because you've

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Speaker 1: you have you know that that's the truth. Right, Those

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Speaker 1: are the pots they go after because they can't go

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Speaker 1: after the truth. They can't take those pots down. They

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Speaker 1: go after the meaningless pots that are irrelevant, and they

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Speaker 1: just use perception and they use the tools of information

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Speaker 1: wolf fit today, you know, all across social media and

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Speaker 1: cable news and everything else. They use these propaganda organizations

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Speaker 1: and they target you and they pour money into it,

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Speaker 1: and they have armies of people who can do this

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Speaker 1: from morning tonight, and corporations fold individuals fold people like me.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll tell you one of the people in

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Speaker 1: boltingness that across me and in the midst of you know,

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Speaker 1: my roma after a big gagy story and said to me,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe you haven't quit. And that's when I realized,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, they want me to quit. They want

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Speaker 1: me to lie down and die. They want me to

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Speaker 1: fade off into obscurity, they want me to slip into

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Speaker 1: the dock. And that's not who I am. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we get that just because we get bitched at

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Speaker 1: from a hundred different directions every single day, and we

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Speaker 1: understand that if you're not the sort of person who's

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Speaker 1: gonna you know, grimace or grin at that and plunge on,

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Speaker 1: you're not in this line of work. To begin with.

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Speaker 1: But I wish the world would get a little more hip,

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Speaker 1: and I think maybe maybe corporations will that this sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, I hate the term masterturf because it's

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Speaker 1: become a cliche, but that's sort of momentary, internet driven

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Speaker 1: feigned outrage thing. Just take a deep breath, hold your

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Speaker 1: breath for as long as you can. By the time

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Speaker 1: you blow it out, it'll they'll be on to something else.

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Speaker 1: And I just it's like my kids. My kids arrange

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Speaker 1: in age from nine six and then are well. My

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Speaker 1: son introduced me to the term dad hate is gonna hate.

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Speaker 1: He's like, who cares, that's it. He is gonna hate.

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Speaker 1: And I'm hoping uh media gets a little more hip

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Speaker 1: to that dynamic. And then oh, another one of these,

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Speaker 1: another one of these. You raped my eyes with your story.

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Speaker 1: You're the worst people ever, You're you're a tool of

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Speaker 1: Trump here or whatever just at the place. Oh, I've

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Speaker 1: heard that a thousand times. I'm hoping there will be

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Speaker 1: an evolution. Do you remember the journalist Gary Webb. He

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Speaker 1: was the journalist who broke the whole story about the

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Speaker 1: cia UM and bringing cocaine into the streets of America

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Speaker 1: and anything I had to fund the war. Um and Webb.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's the one that supposedly committed suicide. They

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Speaker 1: made a movie out of what happened to him in

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Speaker 1: his life too. I think it was to Kill the Messenger.

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Speaker 1: And I was so moved when I watched that movie,

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Speaker 1: because I couldn't believe that with everything that Gary Webb did,

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Speaker 1: that his name wasn't as familiar to me as Walter

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Speaker 1: Cronkite and every Down Morrow and all of the greats. Right.

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Speaker 1: I was, oh my wow, how come I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of this guy? So I looked him up and I

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Speaker 1: did a little research, and I saw something that he wrote,

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Speaker 1: and it rarely struck a chorde with me and Um,

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Speaker 1: and it was when he was looking back at what

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Speaker 1: happened to him he wrote, Um prior to doc Alliance,

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Speaker 1: that was the name of his story. He said, I

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Speaker 1: was winning awards, getting raises, lecturing college classes, appearing on

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Speaker 1: TV shows, and judging journalism contests. And then I wrote

427
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,719
Speaker 1: some stories that made me realize how sadly misplaced my

428
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: bliss had been the reason I'd enjoyed, enjoyed such smooth

429
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,440
Speaker 1: sailing for so long, hadn't been as i'd assumed because

430
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 1: I was careful and diligent and good at my job.

431
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,439
Speaker 1: Where wrote the truth was that in all those years

432
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: I hadn't written anything important enough to suppress. Wow. Wow,

433
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: that's that's pretty good. So all of us journalous we

434
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,119
Speaker 1: go around and we're patting ourselves on the back, and

435
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 1: we go to the awards shows, and you know, we

436
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 1: go to war and we're all, you know, all feeling

437
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: pretty good about the work that we're doing and it

438
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: means something, and we change people's lives and we're warriors

439
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 1: for the truth and all this stuff, right, and all

440
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 1: we haven't done is we hadn't written anything important enough

441
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: to suppress. Like, because you can be as careful as

442
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,720
Speaker 1: you want. You can be uh, you can be professional,

443
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: and you can work to those standards, and you cannot

444
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: let your standards go right. You cannot just put an

445
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: anonymous source on because you want the headline and you

446
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 1: want the story. You can actually say no, I'm not

447
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: going to do this until I can verify it. You

448
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: can do all of that, and you can still you

449
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: can still get wrong. You know, I get now why

450
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: you're so strenuous, strenuously denying that you're motivated by conservatism

451
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, I've always said I hate labels. Um,

452
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: they're they're almost always used to discredit people and to

453
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: end conversations, and almost want to do They want to

454
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 1: discredit me and end the conversation. They want me not

455
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: to have a voice, they want me not to ever

456
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: work as a journalist, and in they never want to

457
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: hear from Laura Logan again. And and you know, there's

458
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: an even simpler reason why I don't want that label.

459
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: It's not true. It's not true. And by the way,

460
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,399
Speaker 1: my driver the other night, I just gotta say I

461
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 1: love this man forever because I was after the State

462
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: of the Union and I asked him what he thought.

463
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: He's scared to tell me. Why was he scared to

464
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: tell me because because he kind of likes Trump, And

465
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: he was scared to admit that. How do we live

466
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: in a country in the world today where someone has

467
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: to be scared to say that it doesn't matter whether

468
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: what I think or feel, whether I support him or not.

469
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: That's irrelevance. Just the fact that my driver, and by

470
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: the way, I talked to all my drivers, and he's

471
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: one of many who's been scared to admit that to me. Okay.

472
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: And some of them were black, and some of them

473
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: will Muslim, and some of them will Korean, and some

474
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: of them were white. I mean, it's it's just this

475
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 1: fallacy that only racist white people support this president. That's

476
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: just not true. And and he said to me, you

477
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: know what, I'm independent, and I thought, holy guacamole. He

478
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: just that's what I am. I'm in attended. He said,

479
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: I want the best man or woman for the job.

480
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 1: And I was like, good Lord, above me too. You

481
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: know you mentioned at the beginning of this conversation, you

482
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: made the distinction between um uh, people having bias, which

483
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 1: everybody does, as you stated, or allowing that bias to

484
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: be so gleefully put into your news stories. And I

485
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: remember he mentioned Walter Cronkite. So Bernie Goldberg, who was

486
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: a producer for Walter Croncott all those years. And we've

487
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: interviewed Bernie. I don't know if you know him, and

488
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: he wrote a book about bias bias about CBS News

489
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: and he said, in all those years of working with

490
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: Walter Cronkite, he never saw Walter Cronkites bias slip into

491
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: his news. Well, so, Walter Cronkite when he gets older

492
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: and retires and he was finally free to speak his

493
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: mind and gets out there. He's like a whack job politically.

494
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: I mean, he's way out there, on the edge of

495
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: all kinds of different things. He questions the moon landing.

496
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: I mean, just he's way out there. But he didn't

497
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 1: let that seep into his news coverage, which disciplined man,

498
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,879
Speaker 1: Which is it was pretty interesting and nobody's even trying

499
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: to do that anymore. Well, I would think that probably

500
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: the more honest kind of assessment is is that it

501
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: always seeps in. I mean, I just think we've got

502
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: to be honest about that. Bernie probably didn't notice it

503
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: because he probably shared some of it, because that's what

504
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: I learned. You know, I don't know how many years

505
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: I spent on the battlefield trying to convince soldiers that

506
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: the media isn't liberally biased and that their perception of

507
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: it was wrong. And it took me many years to

508
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: figure out, Wow, I'm the one who's wrong because I

509
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 1: agree with with most of my colleagues about on all

510
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: of these subjects. So I didn't really notice that there

511
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: was that intrinsic kind of implicit bias. And why do

512
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: we think that what do they call it. They have

513
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,199
Speaker 1: a term for now, unconscious bias. It only exists on

514
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 1: the right. It doesn't exist on the left. I mean,

515
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: if unconscious bias is a real thing, why is it

516
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: only afflict one side of the political spectrum. I mean,

517
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying about real life. If what you're

518
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: being told and seeing on television is a distortion of

519
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: the way you know things happen in real life, then

520
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 1: it's probably not true. It's a distortion right in one

521
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: form or another. So, Mike, when I realized when I

522
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: confronted this bias, actually it was I was coming out

523
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: of on Capitol Hill, coming out of a building, and

524
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 1: there was a big um pro life protest, and for

525
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: lack of a better word, it was people who are

526
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: against abortion. Pro life called them whatever you like. I

527
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: told this story once and I was accused of bias

528
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: just in the words I chose, So I'm not choosing

529
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: any particular words. These people were on that side of

530
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: the protest right, and um, I got trapped in one

531
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: of the security things with a whole bunch of people

532
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 1: and they started this conversation with me which got quite

533
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: heated about you never represent our views on television. You're

534
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: biased against us, and I am, of course, you know,

535
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: flying the flag and saying, of course this isn't true.

536
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: And then but it bothered me, and their words kind

537
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,719
Speaker 1: of stayed with me, and I started to watch and

538
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: I thought about it. I ruminated over this for years, okay,

539
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: until I finally admitted to myself, Okay, the only peat

540
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: time we put people on television who are you know,

541
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: anti abortion and pro life, whatever you want to call them,

542
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 1: is when they're bombing clinics or looking ridiculous, or it's

543
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: somehow put in a context where this person is very

544
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: conservative in inverted commas, right, which is I don't know

545
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: a code word for something terrible. So actually they're right.

546
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: They were right. We do because I don't know anyone

547
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: that I ever worked with who wasn't in favor of

548
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not going to say I mean

549
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: against life, because that was, you know, the counter argument

550
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: presented to me. Who was in favor of a woman's

551
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: right to choose what she wants to do with her body.

552
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 1: I don't know any people like that that I ever

553
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: worked with. And I've been a journalist since I was

554
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: seventeen years old. That's thirty years now. That's pretty interesting. Yeah, well,

555
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: that's an example we throw out a lot on the show.

556
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: Is is the abortion issue and that there's such an

557
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: enormous divorce between the perception you would get from the

558
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: media about what Americans attitudes are toward abortion and the

559
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: actual reality, which has been pulled over and over again.

560
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't I'm not particularly strong on

561
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: either end, and neither are most Americans. It's very very um, well,

562
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: it's practically uniform that people think first trimester abortions are unfortunate,

563
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: but you really can't interfere with a woman running your life.

564
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: Those numbers drop in half or second trimester abortions, and

565
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: they're practically nobody using who's in favor of late term abortions,

566
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: and you just never get that idea from the media.

567
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: This is not an argument in favor of one abortion

568
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: policy or not. This is just an example of the

569
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: incredible divorce between you know, your media perception and reality. Well,

570
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny you talk about media perception and

571
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: reality because is it media perception or is that being driven?

572
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: And you know, I tend to think these things don't

573
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: get created by jealous, you know, I mean most of

574
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: us are pretty damn lazy. Let's just be honest, okay.

575
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: I mean half of the news room will do a

576
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: story where they're taking calls and they're writing it rather

577
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: than have to get off their butts and get out

578
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: and go sore and do some real reporting. And that's

579
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: why half of these people rely on one source only

580
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: because they can't they can get away with it. Well,

581
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, what you actually what you actually look at

582
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: is journalists are not creating these things. Someone else is

583
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: creating it because it serves their purpose, and typically journalists

584
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: are going along with it unless they're part of some

585
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: kind of ideological machine or even ten generally part of

586
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: these propaganda networks that function throughout right, that tried to

587
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: influence throughout I mean, just look what people tweet out,

588
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: just what they put on their social media feeds. You

589
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: can pretty much map those propaganda networks when you look

590
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: at that. So what what ends up happening is someone

591
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: somewhat take, for example, today, the idea that we're divided country, Well,

592
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: explain to me how I can go from the length

593
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: and breadth of this country, from one coast to another,

594
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: whether I'm in California, in a small town or a

595
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: city or New York City, or I'm in Tulsa, Oklahoma,

596
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: or Pittsburgh, or now suddenly I'm in Portland, Oregon, or

597
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: I'm in somewhere in Texas. How come everywhere I go

598
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: people are interested in hearing about the truth and in

599
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: talking to me and engaging with me on these on

600
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: these things. If we're so divided, how come everywhere I go,

601
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: in all these different places, people come out and want

602
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: to have these conversations. I don't find people so divided.

603
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: I find that we live in a country where we're

604
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 1: told every four and a half seconds that we're divided.

605
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: But if you look at the polls, if you I mean,

606
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: if you look at the elections, they're not landslides for

607
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: one side or another. There fought in the middle. What

608
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: does everyone talk about the swing states. It's about the

609
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: fact that the electorate is in the middle. Most people

610
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: in this country are moderate. That's what most people are.

611
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: And if most of us are moderate, then we're not

612
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: really that divided. No one's winning these elections on the

613
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: extreme left and on the extreme rights, are they? I mean,

614
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole bunch about politics but I

615
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 1: do know a little bit about bullshit, right, and that's

616
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 1: max of bullshit to me, right. But it's it's it's

617
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: just not terribly useful to point out what unites us

618
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: in us. It's for a field good speech occasionally. What

619
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: you know, It's funny study came out a couple of

620
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: years ago that it was one of those things that

621
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: rang so true. It's like, oh, how how did we

622
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: just realize this? People? People bond more quickly and deeply

623
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: over what they don't like than over what they do like.

624
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: It's just a stronger motivator, and that's I think. You know,

625
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 1: the political pros have gotten better and better at their

626
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 1: jobs through the decades and centuries, and I just think

627
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: they're really really good now at whipping people's animal passions up.

628
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: And the fact that it's just corrosive and poisonous to

629
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: us as as a people is well, it's not their problem. Yeah,

630
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've met enough high level political hacks to

631
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: know they're a little short in the conscious department. You know,

632
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: my opinion, the political hacks wouldn't be so powerful and

633
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: influential if they weren't walking hand in hand with the media.

634
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: That's you know, those are those the media itself isn't

635
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: powerful on its own right because Johnah isn't coming up

636
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: with these myths. Is they're they're almost like sheep. They're

637
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: they're being used, and some of them are choosing it.

638
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: Some of them are are more you know, politically minded

639
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: than others. But a lot of the time it's cheap pull.

640
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: I mean, look, it takes an extraordinary you know, and

641
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: basically it takes someone who's you know, borderline suicidal to

642
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: stand up against the flow, right. I mean, if you're

643
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: gonna stand up today and criticize the president, you're gonna

644
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: have the vast majority of the media cheering you and

645
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: elevating you. They'll be giving you awards, They'll be talking

646
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: about your heroic journalism. You're gonna be on all kinds

647
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: of chat shows. You're gonna be on the front cover

648
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: of a magazine. Someone who's gonna be asking what suits

649
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: you wear or what dress? Who made your dress? Right?

650
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no courage in standing up against that,

651
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: and there's no point in standing up against it if

652
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: you don't believe it. But if you're going to stand

653
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: up and do I don't know, I mean a friend

654
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: of mine works has a job at the State Department

655
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: these days. And I mean, this administration passed a resolution

656
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: making crimes against women and women an act of war

657
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: or well, I've never heard anyone talk about that. What

658
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: if I wanted to do that story on sixty minutes?

659
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: How popular would I be? Then? I mean, am I

660
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: then an agent of an evil man and his evil,

661
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: dangerous administration? And therefore I bear responsibility for everything he

662
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 1: says and does? And you know, I mean, and if

663
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: something terrible happens, now it's that blood is on my hands.

664
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the world that we kind of live

665
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: in today. And um, and how does anyone survive that?

666
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: You don't survive it with a corporation behind you, because

667
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: no company is going to stand by you. I just

668
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: saw a tweet. Out Magazine has an article prominently featured

669
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: the Current Issue where they're saying the Trump administration's policy

670
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: against the killing of gaze in Iran is actually a

671
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: colonialist and racist and a bad thing. And it's like,

672
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: and I read it. I you know, I was a

673
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: polypsyga in college, so I got what the guy was

674
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: driving at. But I was like, dude, so he's finding

675
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: everything he can criticize under the sun, including the execution

676
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: of gays. How about you let that one ride? Well,

677
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: how about this, I have one better for you. ISIS

678
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: has a stated position on the elimination and eradication of

679
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: all gay people from the face of the earth. Okay,

680
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: the Security Council has convened once. The United Nations Security

681
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: Council has only convened once in their entire history to

682
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: address a gay issue. A gay issue, right, It's never

683
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: happened before. But because of the blatant and terrible targeting

684
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: and slaughter of gay people by Isis, the Security Council

685
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: actually convened to take on this issue. I can show

686
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 1: you video off the video of the video of gay

687
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: people being handcuffed or their hands tied and tossed off

688
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: buildings in Mosal and all across you know, the so

689
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: called ISIS Caliphate when they had it at the time.

690
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: And then you have mar Matine going to a nightclub,

691
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: okay and kill all people in a gay nightclub that

692
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: he targeted. If you read al Kade his manual, if

693
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: you read the propaganda, it tells you to target gay people.

694
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: It's one of the legitimate targets. It's one of the

695
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: reasons the Security Council had the special meaning. And then

696
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 1: you've got everybody coming out the blurring of the facts

697
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: because suddenly it's leaked that Oma Matine had a gay

698
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: lover and he was seen at the nightclub, and he

699
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: was on Tinder and all this stuff. Weeks later, the

700
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: FBI investigates, in fact that they tell him, you know,

701
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: even dragged out some guy who said he was Oma

702
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: Matine's jilted lover. Right, none of that was true. None

703
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: of that was true. But if you tell people today

704
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: that the Orlando massacre was about terrorism and and gay

705
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: people were deliberately targeted as a terrorist tactic, they'll tell you, oh, no,

706
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with terrorism. They'll fight you

707
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: on it because so successfully was where the wards moneyed,

708
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: and these issues obscured because I don't know, it didn't

709
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: suit the political masters of the time time to admit

710
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 1: to the fact that this was a real threat and

711
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: an ongoing issue because why Because I don't know, gay

712
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: people are an issue of the left, and apparently if

713
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: you're gay, you're not allowed to be conservative. Well what

714
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: if you are? What if you are? I mean, I

715
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: have a friend who lives in Texas whose son is

716
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: gay and his misery in his life doesn't come from

717
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: the fact that he's gay and his you know, his

718
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: Republican family in Texas kind accepted comes from the fact

719
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: that being Christian and being conservative in his gay world,

720
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: he feels is a like a noose around his neck.

721
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 1: That doesn't you know. I'm not speaking for against anyone me.

722
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: I don't care. It makes no difference to me. I

723
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: I'm a live and let live kind of person and

724
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: I am a bleeding heart. Okay, you know I have.

725
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: I have a big heart, and I don't want anyone

726
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: to suffer, and I don't want anyone to struggle. And

727
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: I thought all my life against racism and prejudice. That's

728
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,479
Speaker 1: not who I am. I don't like prejudice in any form.

729
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: But I also I learned the heart. You know what

730
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: I learned from Nelson Mandela that tolerance means true tolerance.

731
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you create a new type of acceptance,

732
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 1: and anyone outside of that is now not acceptable. Yeah.

733
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: We work around a couple of newsrooms over our careers,

734
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: and um, they are overwhelmingly left leaning among the reporters,

735
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: and I can think of one reporter who had the

736
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: courage to be outspoken as a conservative, as one of

737
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 1: the reporters, and he's still talked about by what a

738
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: freaky one. He was a Christian, and he's he's now

739
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: a pretty successful guy and he's on your big conservative

740
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: cable news channel. He could probably guess what it is.

741
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: But anyway, at the time he's he stood out and

742
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 1: he didn't get to go to the afterwork stuff and

743
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 1: the parties and all that. It's just a lot less fun,

744
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that to be to to be out

745
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: with your views. Uh, And it's probably worth pointing out

746
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: he was not a strident man. He was actually very

747
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: kind and gentle. Yeah. But so, but just from it

748
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: you're talking about it's human nature to be lazy and

749
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: go to the easy stories. It's also somewhat human nature

750
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: to like just want to fit in with the fun

751
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: crowd and be able to date the girl over there

752
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: or the guy over there, because you're not running against

753
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: the crowd. Well, you know, I want to I want

754
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: to mention something here. So I mentioned you that a

755
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 1: friend of mine was working at the State Department now right,

756
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: And this is the only way I found out of

757
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: this by accident and I just want to say, you know,

758
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: as a woman who was gang raped, this is important

759
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: to me, and as a woman who not just that

760
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: because of that, but because when I was a young

761
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: reporter in Kosovo, you know, I was the first person

762
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: to get the story that women were being raped by

763
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: the Serbs as an act of war, right as an

764
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: act of ethnic cleansing. And it happened in Rwanda, and

765
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: it happened on many other stories that I've been passionate about,

766
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: and so this rarely resonated with me. And what it

767
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: was is that a year you know, this is on

768
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: October two thousand eighteen, so a year ago in two

769
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: thousand seventeen. October two thousand seventeen, Trump signed the Women

770
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: Peace and Security Act of two thousand seventeen, legislation that

771
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 1: made the United States the first government in the world

772
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: with a comprehensive law recognizing women's essential contributions to efforts

773
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 1: that promote peace, maintain security, and prevent conflict, recognizing that

774
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: women off a post ways the economic prosperity and global

775
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: security objectives right. And so the legislation has sparked a

776
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: whole new thinking in the State Department and other programs

777
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: and everything else, and my friend is an ambassador for

778
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: this program. And so how come we don't know about this?

779
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: How come in the age of me too movements and

780
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: women rising up? How come that's not a story. I

781
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: don't think I've ever heard that either. Well, you should

782
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: do a story on it. Well, Pete on your show.

783
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: He's awesome. We'd be delighted to do that. Yeah, that

784
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 1: I get you, Pete Morocco, Okay, yeah, fantastic. Well let's

785
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: you know. It's I was saying. I get asked in

786
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: real life a lot about media bias. Um as a

787
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: not left winger in the media, whatever I am, I'm

788
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: a weirdo, is the old libertarian saying goes, I believe

789
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: a gay couple should be able to defend their platform

790
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: with legal firearms. Um, so what does that make me?

791
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know. Um, but I'm independent, just as

792
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: my driver. Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm a very complicated man.

793
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: Get to know. But it has to do. I tell

794
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: people with enthusiasm, it's not a plot. It's it's there's

795
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 1: not a cabal that meets by moonlight under the lone

796
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: oak tree. It's a question of enthusiasm for particular stories

797
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: or particular angles of stories, and and it's individual decisions

798
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: being made on what story will I cover or how

799
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 1: much energy will I put into a story? And so

800
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's tough for us to have this

801
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: discussion because we are, by some measure editorialists, by some humorists,

802
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: and arguably journalists sometimes. Um so there are plenty of

803
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: times I'm trying to make a point not get it facts.

804
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: But if you're claiming to to be primarily motivated to

805
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: get it facts, the time to be most careful is

806
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: when you're the most enthusiastic. I think, Yes, what you're

807
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: saying is when you like people and you agree with them,

808
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: you should be you should be careful because we're predisposed

809
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: to believe those we agree with. And in fact, you're

810
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: saying you should be more careful that you're skeptical of

811
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 1: naturally and instinct. Sure. I mean, for instance, I want

812
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: very badly for Trey Goudy to be right everything he says,

813
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 1: because I really like his views on government. And there

814
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,479
Speaker 1: would be a danger if I were a reporter sitting

815
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: there with Tray Goudy, that I would just sit there

816
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: with stars in my eyes and love in my heart

817
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: and and some some might suggest Scott Pelly was like

818
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: that a little bit with old Andre stricken by the

819
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: same illness. And I'm not taking a position. I'm just

820
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: messing with you. But I don't feel that way about

821
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: any politician, right, good sister. All journalists should go into

822
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: the interview like that. Yeah, that that'd be fantastic. Um.

823
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: You know, the interviews I ever did well with the generals.

824
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: I really liked stand it because, you know, because I

825
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: had to put that aside. It was brutal. They tore

826
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: me apart those interviews, and actually one of them, I

827
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: know it had the same impact on him because he

828
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: kept stopping to drink water every four seconds that interview.

829
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: And I know it's because he didn't want to bullshit

830
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: me because we was friends. But I know they he

831
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 1: also is professional, so I had to be professional. You know.

832
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: I gave him a hard time, but I was as

833
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: fair with him as I am with everyone. Yeah. But

834
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: the choosing of stories, the enthusiasm for stories is such

835
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: a big thing, and I wish there for the case.

836
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 1: But if you have you know, four soldiers blown up

837
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: in Afghanistan today, Fox News will cover it and the

838
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: other two cable news channels will hardly at all, if

839
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: at all, and that's just a choice. I'm sorry, Wait,

840
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: I just got to say I do not accept that.

841
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: That is not acceptable. That is, that is absolutely exactly

842
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. That is more than Uh. Look,

843
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 1: when I say that we all have biases, I didn't

844
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: say that the I'm not saying just give in to

845
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: your your bias, right, I'm not saying just give in

846
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: to those things. I'm saying that let's just be honest

847
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: about the fact that they exist. But when you when

848
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 1: we make up all let me give you an example

849
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: of how we would do it at sixty minutes, right,

850
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we would be exhaustive about trying to find

851
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: out what the facts are. We would question every line

852
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: and every word of the story over and over again,

853
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: and we would you know, push back on each other.

854
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: But sometimes when we did that, we would have to say, Okay,

855
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 1: so it's all true. This line is true, it's accurate.

856
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: We can defend it, we can stand by it. But

857
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: is it misleading? Does it? You know? The reality is

858
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: when people hear that, they're gonna think this and we

859
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: know that's not true. Now that's a subjective judgment, but

860
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: it's based in fact. Okay, So it's not just people

861
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: putting out their opinions anyone today, any news organization that

862
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: is ignoring what's happening in Afghanistan, If Fox are the

863
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: only people covering it, there's something wrong with that, Just

864
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: like I had a problem with the fact that when

865
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: I was living in Baghdad and we were rushed of

866
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: our feet every night covering the violence, the party across

867
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: the streets the Fox bureau was that we had an

868
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: open invitation to go there. We only made it on

869
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: Fridays after you know, we've done the evening, used five

870
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: nights in a row, and we used to tease our

871
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,080
Speaker 1: colleagues about that. So I'm an equal opportunity offender. Okay.

872
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: Nobody owns that's the thing. The left doesn't own me,

873
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 1: the right doesn't own me. No party owns me. I'm

874
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: not even a member of any party. I'm not even

875
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: a member of a club. I don't think they have me. So,

876
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: you know, I just don't want to be in any

877
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: of those boxes because sooner or later, sooner or later,

878
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: the truth is going to take you to a place

879
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit. All right, let me, let me do

880
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: a devil's advocate argument. Throw it at you. Um. And

881
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: I want to go back to the law you're talking about,

882
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: that the Trump administration pass that declared crimes against woman

883
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: to be acts of war, etcetera. And I can't wait

884
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: to get more into that. I am a young, idealistic,

885
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: all right progressive journalist, and I'm going to say to you, listen, Laura,

886
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: we are in an emergency right now. We have an

887
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: insane What is what is a progressive journalist? What does

888
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 1: that even mean? You're either a journalist or you're not.

889
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: I don't person who isn't cowardly progressive, who is employed?

890
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: Is a journalist? Is not political movement that is hijacked

891
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party and the left, or appears to have

892
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: done so. I don't know, you know, I don't know

893
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: what that's about. That offends me. Just like when people

894
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: say to me. Some young girls says to me, I

895
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 1: want to be a human rights journalist. I said to her,

896
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: what is that? I know what a sports journalist is. Okay,

897
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: we'll cover sports, but you're still a journalist. You're no

898
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: different to me. You do your job the same way

899
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: I do my job. We're journalist, you cover sports, I

900
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: cover news. I get that, but don't tell me I'm

901
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: a progressive journalist, because that's that's the kind of political

902
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: nonsense that that is now propaganda. You're now an activist

903
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 1: or a propagandist. You're no longer a journalist if that's

904
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: in your title. So I was really intrigued by the

905
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: notion of a fact. You're talking about the way you

906
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: you carefully combed over a sixty minute stories, the fact

907
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: that is misleading that journalist who happens to be a

908
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: progressive person. Don't yell at me again, who says Laura Laura?

909
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: If we were to emphasize that story, that would mislead

910
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,480
Speaker 1: people into thinking the new Hitler Trump is a good guy,

911
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: and that would lessen the existence. I appreciate the law,

912
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to publish the story that that

913
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: is a lie, because the truth is he's evil, and

914
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 1: he's a misogynist and a racist and a homophobe in

915
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: the rest of it. Okay, So I can I can

916
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: answer your question for you. This is what I'm gonna say.

917
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: I'm as tired of the breathless headlines as anybody else.

918
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: I meet people every single day who say this to me.

919
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: People just can't stand it anymore. Okay, when when Hitler

920
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 1: was marching across Europe, I'm sure that people then said

921
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 1: there was no greater time in history that was more important.

922
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: When Nixon was in the White House, I'm so sure

923
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,479
Speaker 1: there were people who went out there and said there's

924
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: never been a more critical time. When we were heading

925
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: into Vietnam. I mean, there's to to assume that this

926
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: is the most dangerous time in history, or this is

927
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 1: the only time in history that we've ever faced. Anything

928
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: like this is hubris in a scale that says everything

929
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: about you. It reminds me of the end of the

930
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: world's blind it that reminds me of the religious end

931
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: of the worlders who think my time is the time

932
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: the the world will end because we're the people. There's

933
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: an enormous humerist to it. Like you said, yes there is.

934
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: But I want to make an important point here that

935
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: is distinct from fact. Okay, because what I was talking

936
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: about is you when somebody says to me, you know,

937
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: Trump is is dangerous, as Hitler, I start to ask questions.

938
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: That's my instants, right, So I'm not going to take

939
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 1: a position on this. It doesn't matter what my position is,

940
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: How the hell should I know? Right? I gotta figure

941
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: this out. You this person has made have made this claim,

942
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: and that's all it is until I can verify it.

943
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: It's a claim or it's your opinion, right, So I'm

944
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: not gonna put it as fact. That's not a fact.

945
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna look, Okay, how many people have been

946
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: burned alive in gas chambers, how many people have been

947
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: put on trains? How many people are being what loads

948
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: are being passed that's that are taking us down that past?

949
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 1: And what are the answers to those? Those questions lead

950
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: me to the facts, and those lead me to understand

951
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: whether something is an opinion or is it an analysis.

952
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: Is it an opinion that's based in emotion or is

953
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: it in your that's based in fact? What is the

954
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: evidence supporting this this claim? Right? And that's my process

955
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: as a journalist, and I have to look at that

956
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: in every respect. I mean, I don't want to use

957
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 1: a controversial you know example that's gonna have everybody jumping

958
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: up and down, but you know, it's it's sort of

959
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: it's sort of interesting. Cheryl Atkinson, who you mentioned, she

960
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: has a thing like substitute switch things around. Substitute you know,

961
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: Obama for Trump, Trump, substitute you know somebody else. Put

962
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: left where the right is and put right where the

963
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 1: left is, and see if the treatment is the same,

964
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: and that those are the things that I look at.

965
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 1: Is the treatment the same? Do we hold everyone to

966
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: the same standard? Because I'm I'm consistent, right, I mean,

967
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: I don't yell at my kids about one thing one

968
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: day and then say, oh, next day, I don't care

969
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 1: about that. No, I'm consistent. I tell my kids kindness

970
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: and respect. And you don't get a break from that.

971
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: You don't get to be a jackass today and then

972
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: go back to being kind tomorrow, No, because then you're

973
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: still a jackass. So if we have to be to me,

974
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: we have to be consistent in how we apply this process.

975
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: And when you're not consistent in applying that, usually something

976
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: is motivating it. And that's and that's where the problems

977
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 1: come in. So what you're talking about is not like

978
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: when we do a story. I mean, if someone wants

979
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: to make an executive decision at an executive level and

980
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: say sixty minutes isn't covering this Because we're going to

981
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: be helping an administration that's a political decision. You've now

982
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: made a political decision. And then let's be honest about

983
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: the fact that we're not just making journalistic decisions. We're

984
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: no longer moderate. We've taken a political position, and let's

985
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: be who we are. Let's own it. That's if that's

986
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: what we're willing to do, and we think it is,

987
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: then let's own it. But what we have today is

988
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: journalists want it both ways. They want to take a

989
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: political position and then claim that they're still occupying the

990
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: middle ground and they're still and they're fair and they're

991
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: even to both sides. And then should they succeed in

992
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: getting what apparently it seems like everybody wants getting this

993
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 1: president removed from office, even though he was elected the

994
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: same way every other president was elected. You know, Um,

995
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: if they succeed in that, then they can go back

996
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: to being moderate and impartial and everybody's supposed to believe it.

997
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: You know what I love is I was attacked once

998
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 1: for making one, um, one comment about something that I

999
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: then went on to do a story and people are like,

1000
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: oh my god, this journalists is giving opinions. Well, if

1001
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: you give an opinion they like and they agree with

1002
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: nobody cares the fact that you're in You're not on

1003
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: the air, and you're in a you know, a private

1004
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,439
Speaker 1: situation where people public sitch room, for example, where people

1005
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: have come to a lunch and they're asking your opinion.

1006
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to give your opinion in that space.

1007
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: From all these self righteous journalists who going up they saying,

1008
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: good God, Well, I can't find a fact in the

1009
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: New York Times half the time today, or in political

1010
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 1: reporting today. I mean, there are some people who are

1011
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: better than others. I don't want everyone out there is

1012
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: a political reporter to hate me. You know, there's lots

1013
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: of good political reporters out there, but sometimes it's very

1014
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: hard to actually find a fact because so much of

1015
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,320
Speaker 1: it is one anonymous official or person source after another

1016
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: giving their union. I mean, the Neil Times actually printed

1017
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,359
Speaker 1: people sitting supposedly sitting in meetings, you know, with Mike

1018
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: Flynn when he was National Security Advisors saying that he

1019
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: didn't know how the National god was supposed to be

1020
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: called up, and that he didn't apparently didn't know that

1021
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: weapons sales have to be approved by Congress. Well, I

1022
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever heard of anything more ridiculous

1023
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: in my life. What idiots thought that it was okay

1024
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: to print that, Because, first of all, he was the

1025
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: head of the Defense Intelligence Agency and that's their job.

1026
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: He ran it, So how the hell would he not

1027
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: know that weapons sales have to be approved by Congress.

1028
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: His entire agency that was under his command for I

1029
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: don't know how many years. That's one of their sole

1030
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: missions is being responsible for the weapons the United States

1031
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: producers from beginning to end, So that that idea in

1032
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 1: itself is ludicrous. What it says to me is that

1033
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: the journalist knew nothing about how weapons sales are approved,

1034
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: knew nothing about the Defense Intelligence Agency, and apparently knew

1035
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 1: nothing about Mike Flynn. Neither did any of the editors

1036
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 1: at the New York Times who printed that stupid story.

1037
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: Oh and then, by the way, we reproduce something not

1038
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: dissimilar to it at some place where I may have

1039
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: been working at the time. Even though I put out

1040
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: a thing internally to correct those misconceptions, it was ignored

1041
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: because someone chose what they wanted to be true. Oh,

1042
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: this guy's an IDIOTY should never have had that job,

1043
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: That's what they were trying to say, right and by

1044
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: the way National God soldiers fall under Title thirty two.

1045
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: Find me a reporter who can tell you the difference

1046
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: between Title tan, Title fifty and Title thirty two and

1047
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: whose authorities those governed and what you know the legal

1048
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: uh or what are the laws under those authorities. I mean, like,

1049
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: that's my frustration with the with the coverage. It's not

1050
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: that one is on the left or on the right.

1051
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: It's the fact. It's the ineptitude of this that we're

1052
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,320
Speaker 1: putting this spin out as fact, and we're making political

1053
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: decisions and we're trying to pretend they're not political decisions.

1054
00:52:57,480 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: Just call it what it is, okay, and please do

1055
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: the most basic journalism, figure out, you know, whether some

1056
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: what someone is telling you is actually true or not,

1057
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: or even as credible or believable, and not just more

1058
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: propaganda to advance, you know, someone's political position in the

1059
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: destruction of someone. I need to jump in reprise my

1060
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: Tony Award Willing role as a New York Times editor

1061
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: Laura Darling. We got a hundred and eighty five thousand

1062
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: clicks on that story. All right, enough, blah blah blah.

1063
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: They just have different goals. I think we're doomed are

1064
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 1: we doom? You know, I don't know. I know some

1065
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: great reporters at the New York Times. I know great

1066
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,720
Speaker 1: reporters all across the field. I mean Dexter Filkin's, Rich Apple,

1067
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: Colada Goal, Charyl Atkinson, Sarah Carter. I mean, these are

1068
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: great reporters, and there are many more that I'm just

1069
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: not thinking of right now. I worked with many great

1070
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 1: reporters all my life, Richard, Max McClellan. You know, some

1071
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: of the greatest journalists that I've ever known, and I

1072
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: learned from great journalists. And I don't want to come

1073
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 1: off sounding like, oh, I'm a great person. I'm not,

1074
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: you know, I really am not. In fact, probably the

1075
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 1: biggest misconception about me of anything is that like people

1076
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 1: look at me and think, oh, I'm the TV girl

1077
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 1: because of the way I look and whatever else. No,

1078
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: I only became a TV girl because I couldn't get

1079
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: a job in print, because you know, the newspapers looked

1080
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:17,879
Speaker 1: at me like, we don't need a little white girl

1081
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: in South Africa. We need a black guy that can

1082
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 1: go in and out of the townships and that can

1083
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 1: you know, uh, plug us into the real story here,

1084
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: the one we care about. The one that matters. So

1085
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: I only got into television because they need more bodies

1086
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: and because the cameraman running the bureau that I got

1087
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: a job. I didn't know how to type or right.

1088
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: He hated it, and I watched him one type and

1089
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: with two fingers and said, can I do that for you?

1090
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 1: I didn't even he didn't even know my name. I

1091
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 1: was waiting to meet him. You know. That's that's how

1092
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: I got a job in television. But my job in

1093
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 1: television is to be alike for other people. If I

1094
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,360
Speaker 1: have any light, if people want to hear what I

1095
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 1: have to say, it's it's because I'm a great vehicle

1096
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: for what this person has to offer that maybe maybe

1097
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: sometimes you wouldn't otherwise have paid attention to. You know,

1098
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,520
Speaker 1: sometimes sixty minutes was that platform. Sometimes it was a

1099
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: CBS Evening News. I'm not alone. It's not me. I

1100
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: didn't get here on my own, and I don't stay

1101
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: here on my own, and I don't stand alone. I

1102
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: can't do anything on my own. Actually I can't even

1103
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: survive because, believe me, if you they think I declared

1104
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: war in you know, my Mike interview, imagine how they're

1105
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: going to react to this one. There's already people trying

1106
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: to tweet stuff and associate me with conspiracy theories. And

1107
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: I know it's the beginning of painting me as if

1108
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: I'm some right wing nutter. Again, I'm not. I am not.

1109
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: There's nothing about me that belongs to any one side

1110
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 1: or one ideology. You know, nobody can figure out my

1111
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: politics because I haven't figured out my politics. I don't

1112
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: give a shit about politics. I am who I am,

1113
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 1: and I know how to be a good journalist and

1114
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: I learned that from other journalists. And I know how

1115
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,439
Speaker 1: to be a good person. And to me, those two

1116
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: things don't get separated. They walk together and they're considered stint.

1117
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: You have to try to be a good person every

1118
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: day of your life, every day of your life, and

1119
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: sometimes I fall short. But you know what, when I

1120
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: fall short, I own it. As I tell my kids, hey,

1121
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: or if my husband says to me, you never apologize.

1122
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: I'm always the one apologizing. I say, Okay, I want

1123
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 1: to use the word I usually use, but let's just say,

1124
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: I say, dude, I apologize on national television. Okay, I

1125
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: own apology in this house. Tell me I don't know,

1126
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: I apologize, Hey, are you You have to be somewhat

1127
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: worried that you're never gonna work again at the prestigious outfits.

1128
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 1: You're sixty, You're you're the Atlantic, those kind of things.

1129
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: Are you concerned about that? Not one bit. I'm done.

1130
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm never I don't know if anyone is ever going

1131
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:46,840
Speaker 1: to hire me at any of those places again. But

1132
00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:49,280
Speaker 1: this is what I said to you. I'm a journalist.

1133
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to do my job the same way I've

1134
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: always done it, to the best of my ability, with

1135
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: the most honest heart and open mind. That's how I'm

1136
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: going to do it. I bring that you get all

1137
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: of me. When I sit down in front of you,

1138
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 1: You've got all of me, you know, every little bit

1139
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: of me, and most important of all, you have my

1140
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: willingness to try and understand who you are, why you

1141
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 1: believe what you believe, how you got here right. I

1142
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: don't bring barriers to understanding that. That's what I want

1143
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: to tell journalists to tell me I'm a progressive journalists,

1144
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: or I'm a human rights journalist, or I'm you know,

1145
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm a women's rights journalist. No like, how are you

1146
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: going to have an open mind and hear someone properly

1147
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 1: and understand and properly if you're bringing those barriers, like

1148
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: you go to Egypt to cover I don't know, the

1149
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: General Sissy and the terrible things he did to the

1150
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,919
Speaker 1: poor Muslim brotherhood, and then you find out, oh my god,

1151
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 1: the Muslim brother did a whole lot of terrible things

1152
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 1: as well. As a human rights journalist, are you now

1153
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: going to only report on one side of that? Are

1154
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 1: you going to pick a side? Are you going to

1155
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: bury what you know about the side that you came there,

1156
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, convinced we're the victim, and now you found

1157
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: out the victim maybe isn't so much a victim. Maybe

1158
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 1: sometimes they're a victim and other times they would just

1159
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,560
Speaker 1: as at maybe even worse. You know, how do you

1160
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 1: make those decisions? You can't make clear decisions if ideology

1161
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: is guiding you as a journalist. When ideology guides you,

1162
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: then you become an activist. And if you're going to

1163
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: be an activist, just call it what it is. But

1164
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: people don't want that, right, I mean, because propaganda organizations,

1165
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: they have people all throughout the media organizations acting you

1166
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: know who who walk in step with them, and they

1167
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: don't want to be out it. I mean, some of

1168
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,919
Speaker 1: them admit who they are. I mean, you know, one

1169
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: of those organizations even gloated it and prode about taking

1170
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: me down, and the New York Times exalted them for

1171
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: it and approaded them and did a big article on

1172
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 1: on isn't this so wonderful? What did you think, New

1173
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,400
Speaker 1: York Times? Did you think about what it means? Did

1174
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 1: you think about what if that propaganda machine was turned

1175
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: against you and your journalists? Did you ever think about

1176
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: what it looks like from the other side. I do

1177
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 1: that every story that I go into, every day of

1178
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 1: my life, I think about it from the other side. Well,

1179
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: who We've talked about this many times, and it makes

1180
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,919
Speaker 1: me crazy, especially with a couple of kids just through

1181
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: college and one in college, looking at everything through the

1182
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,479
Speaker 1: lens of the victim and the oppressor and picking them

1183
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 1: in advance and analyzing everything from that basis. And he

1184
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: gave a great example talking about the Muslim brotherhood. The

1185
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 1: idea that you you put a black hat and a

1186
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: white hat on each side before you even begin asking

1187
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: questions and go from there is incredibly dangerous because we're

1188
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: all just flawed human beings running around trying to find

1189
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: happiness somehow, and don't use words like dangerous. Don't do that,

1190
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: because everything is dangerous these days. You know what it's

1191
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: it's blinded, it's it's um my opic, and it's prejudiced

1192
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 1: in itself. Quote out what it is. We don't know

1193
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 1: if it's dangerous, right, it might be, but that's your like,

1194
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, you see that as dangerous and maybe it is,

1195
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: maybe it isn't, But what you're really talking about, Let's

1196
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: quote what it is first and then let people decide

1197
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: how they feel about it, and then you can say

1198
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: I see that as dangerous for these reasons. But uh,

1199
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: but really that's what we hear all the time, this man,

1200
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 1: this administration, this time. We've never been a more dangerous times.

1201
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: And this is used to justify us abandoning our principles.

1202
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: And I'm I don't know. Nelson Mandela never abandoned his principles.

1203
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: He never did. He never sold out. He spent twenty

1204
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,160
Speaker 1: seven years behind bars for something that he believed in

1205
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: because he wasn't prepared to sell himself out or to

1206
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,720
Speaker 1: sell anyone out. And he's my guide. It's people like him,

1207
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 1: and you know what, some of them you don't even

1208
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: know their names, but they're black people whose names are

1209
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: not known anywhere outside of their family. And the people

1210
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: like me who knew them on the street in South Africa,

1211
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: who lived those principles every day of their life, and

1212
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: who showed me the way, They showed me how to

1213
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: do that. And I meet those people everywhere sometimes, you

1214
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: know what, I meet them in rural Tennessee. Doesn't have

1215
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: to have to be in some dusty, miserable village in Afghanistan.

1216
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: Where you meet them. You don't only find courage and nobility.

1217
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: There doesn't only exist in liberal cities. You put guess

1218
01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: what you even find it in small conservative towns, and

1219
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: you find it in small liberal towns and families. It's

1220
01:01:06,960 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: not owned by politics. These are human qualities that live

1221
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,520
Speaker 1: and breathe in all of us. And all I was

1222
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 1: born to do was tell it like it is. That's

1223
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: that's who I am. So I don't really care who

1224
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 1: I do it for. It was the greatest honor of

1225
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 1: my life to work at sixty Minutes and to work

1226
01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: with Mike Wallace and a Brady and to know these

1227
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: people and to live up to the legacy of that show.

1228
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: And I don't want to do anything to sally that

1229
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: legacy because I believe in it. I believe when sixty

1230
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 1: minutes is great, I believe in the greatness of that.

1231
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of the work I did there, and

1232
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: I have so much respect for the people I worked

1233
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: with there. But does that mean I agree with everything?

1234
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Does that mean sometimes I'm not throwing things

1235
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 1: at the television, you know, um and want to vomit

1236
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: sometimes that some of the things that are put out there.

1237
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: Of course it's supposed to be like that. I've got

1238
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 1: to be learning and I've got to be challenged. And

1239
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: when did we go from learning and being challenged to

1240
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,760
Speaker 1: safe spaces? I don't know how the how that happened,

1241
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: And maybe I'm a little old school like that, but

1242
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 1: I can tell you I'm tired of living in fear.

1243
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: I've been living in fear. The girl everyone says is fearless, right,

1244
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: I'm not fearless. I've been living in fear of these

1245
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: propaganda organizations. I've been living in fear of the fact

1246
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be, you know, employable to

1247
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: these these organizations and publications that I look up to

1248
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: and that have have been such a guiding light for

1249
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,400
Speaker 1: me in my work as a journals and inspired me. Right,

1250
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 1: I've been living in fear of all of that, and

1251
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 1: I'm done. I'm done. I don't care. It's never been

1252
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: important to me. It's not that I don't care about that.

1253
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: It's that I'm not gonna be um like a hunted animal. Right.

1254
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: It's liberating, it's liberating, liberating, and it's not very lucrative,

1255
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: but it's very liberating. Well, we're prepared to make you

1256
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 1: a five figure offer, Laura, if you'd like to come

1257
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: work for the arms Strong and get these show like

1258
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: four hundred and ninety two. Oh no, no, left side

1259
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 1: of the decimal. We're not cheaper around here, So listen.

1260
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like you need a great deal of encouraging,

1261
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: but UM people usually react to the most strongly if

1262
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: you're a completely nuts or be really close to the truth,

1263
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 1: and it makes them uncomfortable. So keep making people uncomfortable. Well,

1264
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, I really mean it when I say I

1265
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: can't do it alone. I used to be that journalist

1266
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: that wanted to be first, right, and that wanted to

1267
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: be exclusive, and of course it's a little bit of

1268
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 1: that in all of us. But now I'm that journalist.

1269
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 1: Where any good journalists I know, by the way, Adam

1270
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: Housley one of the best journalists I know. I gotta

1271
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: mention Adam. I'll do anything for any journalist I know

1272
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: who I respect. I give them my context, my relationships,

1273
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 1: I find out stuff for them, I tell them whatever

1274
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 1: you need. It doesn't matter who they work for, because

1275
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: those of us who are standing up for the truth,

1276
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: we can't survive alone. Adam had at one point he

1277
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: was working at Fox News, he had, like I don't know,

1278
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: he had more than a dozen intelligence sources who were willing,

1279
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 1: some of them active, who had already gone and told

1280
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: him how the last administration was spying on people like

1281
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders and Mike McColl and Lindsey Graham and many

1282
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: others during the last election. And Fox News wouldn't run

1283
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: that story. They said he had to have someone on camera. Well,

1284
01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: if that's the standard of journalism today, you gotta have

1285
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: people on camera, Well then how come you know, how

1286
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 1: come there's all these anonymous sources all over the Washington

1287
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: Post and New York Times and everywhere else right who

1288
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: are bringing people down in the administration. It's good enough

1289
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,400
Speaker 1: for them, But suddenly if that's not good enough at

1290
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 1: Fox News, you know. So that's why I laughed when

1291
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: people said, to your old folks were so far right?

1292
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 1: Really are they? I don't know. I don't really answer that.

1293
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: In some respects they are. But here you had a

1294
01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: story which at the time, if Adam had broken that

1295
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 1: story would have been huge. Now now you say to people, oh,

1296
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: they were spying on people, the answer is, oh, well

1297
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: that's isn't that what they always do? No, they broke

1298
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 1: the law. It's not what they always do. It actually

1299
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 1: is a crime. But apparently if you don't enforce the law,

1300
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:14,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Then it's not a crime. No, you're

1301
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: still committed a crime. You just got away with it.

1302
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: You've got away with it because the media and which

1303
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: is supposed to be about accountability, they let you get

1304
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: away with it because it didn't serve a political narrative.

1305
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:28,840
Speaker 1: And when you're so blindly following one narrative, maybe you're

1306
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:31,919
Speaker 1: missing something, some things that are really important to all

1307
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 1: of us. Because now they work for you, Now they

1308
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 1: walk with you. But what happens when they don't. That's

1309
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: the purpose of a democracy, right Because of the place

1310
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: you're talking about, where there's only one opinion, and where

1311
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: there isn't any difference between your propaganda senial media, and

1312
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: people aren't free and people aren't held accountable. Well, that

1313
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: place looks a lot like dictatorship. Wow. Wow, Laura Logan, listen,

1314
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: We're not going to steal all your time. We hope

1315
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,240
Speaker 1: that we can do this again soon. And uh, well, obviously,

1316
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:07,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if you actually care about this, and you

1317
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: obviously care about this, this is a long term battle.

1318
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: I just I do have one thing to say. It's

1319
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 1: the first interview I've done since you know, all that

1320
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: happened with Mike Ritland. And I only did that interview

1321
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:24,439
Speaker 1: with Mike Brlin because he's one of the best guys

1322
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 1: I know, and he's a friend, and he wanted to

1323
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 1: do it and he needed it for his podcast. I

1324
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: didn't expect anything that came after it. But when I

1325
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: had all these requests for interviews, the one I did.

1326
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:35,960
Speaker 1: The reason I'm talking to you, guys is because you've

1327
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: always been there. You've been there, You've you've been interested

1328
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: in what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan. You've been

1329
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: interested in the work, and I respect you for that,

1330
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: and I respect your the way you've treated me and

1331
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: and so I this is no accident, this interview. I

1332
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: came to you on purpose. Well that's kind of you

1333
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: to say, and we appreciate it. You know, we try,

1334
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:02,480
Speaker 1: we're we're just we're a couple of dopes who are

1335
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: too stubborn to do anything but just described the world

1336
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: the way we see it. And I've always loved your

1337
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 1: reporting for so many years. We really appreciate you coming

1338
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: on today. Yeah. Thanks. You never invited me to be

1339
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: a guest on your TV show, That Boy. Yeah, we're

1340
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: a little unconventional for the networks. That's my excuse.