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Speaker 1: Hey, are you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind?

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, so we

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Speaker 2: are bringing you an episode from the vault. This one

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Speaker 2: originally published on July fourteenth, twenty twenty two, and it's

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Speaker 2: part two of our series on the Skybridge.

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Speaker 3: I hope you enjoy.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 2: two of our talk about sky bridges or skyways. If

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Speaker 2: you haven't heard part one yet, maybe you should go

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Speaker 2: check that one out first, but as a brief refresher,

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Speaker 2: a skybridge or a skyway is an architectural feature that

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Speaker 2: you can think of as kind of a hallway in

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Speaker 2: the sky, or an enclosed bridge linking two buildings by

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Speaker 2: the upper floors. In the last episode, we talked about

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Speaker 2: some modern examples of skybridges and some interesting ones from history,

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Speaker 2: such as the Bridge of Size in Venice, Italy's enclosed

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Speaker 2: passageway that may look romantic from the outside but has

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Speaker 2: mostly historical associations with torture and prisons. But in the

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Speaker 2: let's see, But in today's episode, I think we're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking more about what skybridges mean, how they're interpreted,

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Speaker 2: and how they might be used in the future.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So, first of all, I do want to

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Speaker 1: refer back to some examples, just briefly that we discussed

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Speaker 1: the you know, just the idea of say, the powerful

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Speaker 1: Metichi family in Italy using these enclosed spaces and occasional

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Speaker 1: things that we would definitely categorize as a skybridge to

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Speaker 1: move from one place to the other without interacting with

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Speaker 1: enemies or commoners, et cetera. We also looked at some

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Speaker 1: examples of royalty in China engaging in similar practices, using

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Speaker 1: these as sort of privileged passage ways for royal members

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Speaker 1: of society.

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Speaker 2: Oh so, what was the Chinese ruler who went about

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Speaker 2: in these halls so that devils would not see where

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Speaker 2: he walked and he could only embrace good people?

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Speaker 1: It said, yes, yes, that would have been in Bertin

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Speaker 1: shi Wang. Yeah, so that he could quote act mysteriously

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Speaker 1: to avoid devils and meanwhile embrace virtuous individuals. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that we mentioned was that, yeah, Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: one thing within a historical context, but generally speaking, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us wouldn't want to overtly invoke

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Speaker 1: that kind of idea. So in there we get to

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Speaker 1: some of these sort of controversy and back and forth

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Speaker 1: over just the nature of the skybridge, not only what

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Speaker 1: it physically does, but also like what is it, what

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Speaker 1: does it do in terms of society and urban planning,

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Speaker 1: and just the larger nature of the city that goes

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Speaker 1: beyond just mere structures and moving people around. And so

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Speaker 1: I want to come back to the architect John Portman Junior.

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Speaker 1: John Portman Junior lived nineteen twenty four through twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: American neo futurist architect and real estate developer. We mentioned

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Speaker 1: some of the examples of his work here in Atlanta, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: He's known for popularizing the atrium, but also in using

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Speaker 1: a lot of sky bridges. Now, as we mentioned, of course,

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Speaker 1: there are a number of practical reasons to have sky

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Speaker 1: bridges in a structure, moving people around so they don't

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Speaker 1: have to engage in say hostile environment, hot temperatures, freezing rain,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Also, you're going to have situations

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Speaker 1: where you want to share resources within two different towers,

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Speaker 1: so connect those towers at a higher floor. That way,

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Speaker 1: people don't have to go all the way back down

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Speaker 1: and then back up again, perhaps crossing a street, or

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Speaker 1: you know, checking in and out of security along the way,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But in the case of Portman's

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Speaker 1: Peachtree Center skybridges, there's apparently been controversy over the years

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Speaker 1: over the use of such walkways. So this area emerged

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Speaker 1: during the nineteen seventies, and while some of it is dated,

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Speaker 1: some of it is still quite impressive. I have to

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Speaker 1: say the Marta train station at Peachtree Center is probably

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Speaker 1: the coolest looking one in the system. It has these

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Speaker 1: rock walls as well as this kind of still I

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Speaker 1: would say futuristic looking like shiny metal surfaces.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if he designed the Marta station in question,

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Speaker 2: but there was one Marta station at least that was

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Speaker 2: used as a setting for a cut scene in John

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Speaker 2: Carpenter's Escape from New York. I think because it, you know,

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Speaker 2: the sort of the blocky concrete fixtures, and it just

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Speaker 2: looked futuristic enough.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, certainly at the time that was was that

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Speaker 1: five point station. I can't recall off hid but certainly.

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Speaker 3: You're right on that sounds like, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: That also is a huge enclosed space that is impressive

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Speaker 1: in its own way.

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Speaker 3: To walk through.

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Speaker 1: But at any rate, yeah, this is all part of

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Speaker 1: the varying stages of revitalization efforts in downtown Atlanta, and

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Speaker 1: during this time and especially the decades to follow, Peachtree

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Speaker 1: Center was, in the eyes of its critics, this thing

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Speaker 1: that by its very structure, sought to cut out street

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Speaker 1: level Atlanta in its entirety, and not only people but businesses.

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Speaker 1: So rather than optimistically futuristic, the critics would say, well,

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Speaker 1: this is actually more wellsy and a world of privilege

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Speaker 1: above cut off from the realities of the street below.

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Speaker 1: There was one account that I was looking at of

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Speaker 1: looking through various old news stories, and I saw one

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Speaker 1: about I believe it was a janitor strike that was

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Speaker 1: taking place, and this particular author had mentioned people avoiding

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Speaker 1: the protesters by making use of the sky bridges, which

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Speaker 1: seems like a stark example of the sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: the sort of privileged walkway that in ways I think

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Speaker 1: can be compared to some of these older models that

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Speaker 1: we were discussing now. The nineteen seventies. We're also not

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Speaker 1: a period during which green downtowns were prioritized to certainly

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Speaker 1: not in Atlanta. So you know, one can can factor

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Speaker 1: that into the kind of weirdly spaceship like architectural approach

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Speaker 1: that one sees in some of these buildings. Were discussing

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Speaker 1: so giant open atriums in buildings joined to each other

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Speaker 1: by enclosed tunnels and bridges cut off from an outside,

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Speaker 1: where you have a languishing downtown and also just everything's

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Speaker 1: just a sweltering, gray heat island. This is actually one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that Trees Atlanta was founded in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty five to begin the quote greening of downtown.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know exactly how far this far back this

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Speaker 2: reputation goes, but at least today Atlanta is known as

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Speaker 2: a city that has an unusual amount of trees and

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Speaker 2: in its urban center.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, as far as downtown Atlanta goes, especially, a

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Speaker 1: lot of that is we can think Trees Atlanta for

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Speaker 1: so all that's very very local to us. But I

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Speaker 1: think these are all great examples of some of the

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Speaker 1: you know, the discussions that take place over the use

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Speaker 1: of the skybridge and next direction we'd like to go in, though,

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Speaker 1: is taking a step back and talking about for the

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Speaker 1: most part, taking a step back, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: this is also still contemporary as well. But talking about

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Speaker 1: futurism and the skybridge, the ideas that end up being

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Speaker 1: wrapped up in concepts that have skybridges in them, you know,

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Speaker 1: what we're actually trying to achieve, And what are some

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Speaker 1: of the visions, sort of the loftier ideas that are

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Speaker 1: caught up in all of this, And indeed, what are

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Speaker 1: some of the really pivotal forward facing ideas that we

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Speaker 1: can point to in the early twentieth century.

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Speaker 2: So when I was thinking about the social meaning of skybridges,

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Speaker 2: especially in science fiction, it's interesting I have a general

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Speaker 2: sense that skybridges are often used in fictional architecture to

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Speaker 2: emphasize exactly this kind of theme you were just talking about.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of people living in elevated tubes of

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Speaker 2: privilege that disconnect them from the realities below. And one

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Speaker 2: specific example is that I had a pretty distinct memory

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Speaker 2: of the movie Metropolis, the nineteen twenty seven Fritz Long movie,

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Speaker 2: sort of German expressionist science fiction masterpiece, and my idea

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Speaker 2: at least in my head was that this movie was

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Speaker 2: full of skybridges. But when I did a Google search,

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Speaker 2: I didn't find a lot of examples. The main thing

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Speaker 2: I actually found in screenshots appeared to be rail lines

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Speaker 2: connecting the tops of buildings, and I found what looks like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it looks like hand drawn illustrations based

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Speaker 2: on the movie that do appear to have like connected

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Speaker 2: enclosed hallways, But I'm not sure how accurate my memory

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Speaker 2: that the city in Metropolis is full of skybridges is. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 2: for some reason, I had that impression there certainly are

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Speaker 2: these these elevated rail lines going between skyscraper tops and

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Speaker 2: Metropolis is A is a great dystopian sci fi film,

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Speaker 2: one of the major themes of which is economic injustice.

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Speaker 2: It presents a sort of class bifurcated society where you have,

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Speaker 2: you know, idle rich people sort of frittering away their

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Speaker 2: days up in the tops of great tall buildings, apparently

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Speaker 2: rarely or never having to go down into the streets.

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Speaker 2: And meanwhile, the workers and the factories who make this

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Speaker 2: techno utopia possible are confined to physically lower spaces, even

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Speaker 2: subterranean tunnels and caverns, and eventually there is a revolt

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Speaker 2: in the film. But the theme is certainly there. But

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Speaker 2: though maybe it doesn't have as many skybridges as I

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Speaker 2: actually remember. I don't know, maybe they're just not coming

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Speaker 2: through in the screen, you know, grabs that people have

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Speaker 2: put up on the internet.

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Speaker 1: I think there are definitely skybridges in Metropolis. I know

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Speaker 1: that some of the sources I was looking at they

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Speaker 1: referenced specifically early twentieth century science fiction cinematography. And when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about that, you're talking about Metropolis. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Metropolis is the example of a futuristic cinema from especially

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Speaker 1: the twenties part excellence. You know, this is it, this

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Speaker 1: is the big one.

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Speaker 2: And I did want to note that this vision of

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Speaker 2: tall buildings occupied by the rich at the top while

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Speaker 2: the workers live down on the ground. This interestingly, it

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Speaker 2: squares with some reality, such as the idea of like

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Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, the penthouse apartment. But also

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Speaker 2: the class associations are often inverted. Like I was reading

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Speaker 2: some actual research papers about the psychological and social impact

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Speaker 2: of living in tall buildings, which I'll get into in

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Speaker 2: a minute, and these studies often cited the exact opposite

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Speaker 2: that there are widespread assumptions of high rise living being

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Speaker 2: associated with lack.

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Speaker 3: Of economic means.

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Speaker 2: But as much is, architecture is often a metaphor for

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Speaker 2: economic realities. I think also lots of sci fi has

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Speaker 2: visions of future urban spaces where the tops of tall

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Speaker 2: buildings are connected, and doesn't necessarily have that meaning. It's

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Speaker 2: not always a class critique, I think sometimes instead it's

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Speaker 2: supposed to be taken as a sign of a complex

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Speaker 2: or complicated society, that there are avenues connecting things back

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Speaker 2: and forth, like the like the arteries of a circulatory system,

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Speaker 2: that it's a complex not of associations, resembling a kind

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Speaker 2: of like the vines in a jungle in physical form.

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Speaker 2: And of course, in fact, there's sort of a literal

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Speaker 2: analogy to the biological architecture of a rainforest, because on

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Speaker 2: a rainfores in a rainforest, you know, you have sort

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Speaker 2: of one level of life going on at the forest floor,

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Speaker 2: which of course is all connected by the continuous surface,

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Speaker 2: but then you have the tree canopy level where the

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Speaker 2: lateral connection of the ground level is replicated up above.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I think even in sci fi movies

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Speaker 2: without an economic critique. There we see all these hallways

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Speaker 2: going back and forth between the skyscrapers, and it just

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Speaker 2: makes us feel like, wow, it's so complex and there's

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Speaker 2: so much going on, and it would be you know,

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Speaker 2: it would be hard for me to even understand how

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Speaker 2: the you know, the many layers of this society.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's interesting to sort of crack this, not

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Speaker 1: because one thing. And I'll come back to some sources

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Speaker 1: that touch on this in a debt. If you think

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Speaker 1: of like the upper pinhouse of a of a of

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Speaker 1: a very tall building, a skyscraper, what have you, the

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Speaker 1: thing is like that is a dead end. That is

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Speaker 1: the point at which you generally have no choice but

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Speaker 1: to turn around and come back down. And you know,

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Speaker 1: you can say, oh, well maybe there's a helicopter port

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Speaker 1: up there. Okay, well there's that. And certainly you can

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Speaker 1: extend this by pointing out that while some of the

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Speaker 1: futuristic visions of cities and where we're going where or

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Speaker 1: have been planning, they also often involve say a whole

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Speaker 1: bunch of flying cars moving around or other flying flying vehicles,

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Speaker 1: flying machines that are serving as a way to connect

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Speaker 1: these isolated islands in the sky. The classic examples of

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Speaker 1: that would be like Blade Runner.

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Speaker 2: Now, I think you could assume that maybe with Blade Runner,

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Speaker 2: like you look at some architectural features and say, there's

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Speaker 2: implied critique here, there's some kind of implied critique about

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Speaker 2: the society we're being shown. But there are other cases

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Speaker 2: where I don't know if there is. It's just sort

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Speaker 2: of like inherited science fiction texture. Like in the Star

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Speaker 2: Wars prequels. You see that exacting traffic going back and

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Speaker 2: forth at many levels. There's like you know, like the

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Speaker 2: layers of a cake, the different crisscrossing streams of flying cars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's definitely an underworld to Coroissant

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Speaker 1: as well. But yeah, there are other films like I

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Speaker 1: don't know, The Fifth Element, for example, has a lot

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Speaker 1: of cool flying cars and that that feels might be

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Speaker 1: more like just sci fi texture. But to come back

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Speaker 1: to this idea like Coraissant with an underworld and all

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Speaker 1: all this, I can't help but think, of course, of

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Speaker 1: Dante's Inferno and all of this, and think again of

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Speaker 1: the of the skyscraper as mountain in Dante's Divine Comedy.

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Speaker 1: We of course have the complexities of the of the

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Speaker 1: underworld of Inferno, we have the mount of Purgatory that

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Speaker 1: extends upward and reaches the point of Paradise. Because because

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Speaker 1: then in the third Book, of course, we have the

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Speaker 1: heavenly realm and the heavenly realm. I guess we might

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Speaker 1: we might well compare to some of these visions of

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Speaker 1: the the the upper parts of skyscrapers being connected together.

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Speaker 1: We don't want isolation and loneliness in our heavens. We

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Speaker 1: want elaborate complexity.

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Speaker 2: Ah, this may be a more apt analogy even than

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Speaker 2: you intended, because you remember, like how often in the

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Speaker 2: Paradiso Dante just talks about how like I couldn't describe

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Speaker 2: what I was seeing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just And certainly when you look at illustrations,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, you can have a pretty firm map

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Speaker 1: of of of the Inferno, pretty firm map of the

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Speaker 1: amount of purgatory. But yeah, Paradise, it's just this swirling

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Speaker 1: circles and interconnected wheels. Of course, any of these cinematic

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Speaker 1: examples we're looking at, yeah, they harken back to Metropolis.

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Speaker 1: Metropolis is the granddaddy of them all, and Metropolis is

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Speaker 1: one of those movies that just stands the test of time,

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Speaker 1: certainly worth taking a look at again. But while it

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Speaker 1: is one of the most popular, enduring and certainly sci

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Speaker 1: fi influential visions of skybridges and this interconnected skyscraper world,

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Speaker 1: that film, too, was continuing trends of futurism, which apparently

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Speaker 1: can be traced back to American folk artist Erastus Salisbury Field,

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Speaker 1: who lived eighteen oh five through nineteen hundred, so didn't

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Speaker 1: even live to see Metropolis, but he did this wonderfully

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Speaker 1: intriguing work titled Historical Monument of the American Republic, eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixty seven through eighteen eighty eight being the dates on

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Speaker 1: this piece, And definitely look this up. You can find

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Speaker 1: images of this online and Joe, I've included an image

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Speaker 1: of this for you here.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So I think this vision of the future

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Speaker 2: is that everyone will get to live in their own

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Speaker 2: Tower of Babbel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It is very h brugal esque. I

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Speaker 1: would say these don't instantly read as skyscrapers to the

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Speaker 1: modern eye, but I mean there are certainly architectural features

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Speaker 1: here that you will see on modern tall buildings. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this looks like a fantastic realm.

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Speaker 2: So, whereas in a more mundane age you have the

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Speaker 2: jealous competition with your neighbor for who can have the

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Speaker 2: prettier lawn or the fancier I don't know, satellite TV antenna,

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Speaker 2: in this case, you're competing to see who can kill

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Speaker 2: God first.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and if they're going to pull it off, they're

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Speaker 1: going to do it from these what look to be

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Speaker 1: like penthouse temples, kind of Gozarian in their structure, that

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Speaker 1: are all connected by bridges and have just oodles of

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Speaker 1: statues at the top. I assume those are statues and

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Speaker 1: this is and they literally appear to be clouds swirling

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Speaker 1: around them.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's a cool drawing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So this was created for the Philadelphia Centennial

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Speaker 1: Exhibition in eighteen seventy six and Wooden Sephariic, the authors

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Speaker 1: that I have referenced in the first episode. They say

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Speaker 1: that this image influenced a number of other artists, including

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Speaker 1: Charles R. Lamb and Vernon hoe Bailey, who created the

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Speaker 1: nineteen o eight Streets High in the Air illustrations. These

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Speaker 1: are also worth checking out, and Joe I have included

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Speaker 1: two examples of these for you.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: These are not necessarily skybridges or skyways in the more

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Speaker 2: narrow sense that we were talking about earlier, of basically

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Speaker 2: an enclosed hallway that's got stuff all around. But these

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Speaker 2: are still interesting because they are ideas of the bridge

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Speaker 2: connecting skyscrapers buildings at height having a second level or

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Speaker 2: maybe multiple levels of lateral connection. But here they're just

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Speaker 2: open streets. I mean that's interesting too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you see a train moving through one of them,

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Speaker 1: like a great worm burrowing through this behemoth. Yeah. These

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Speaker 1: are impressive images that also have you know, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: the coloration, or at least the versions I have here,

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Speaker 1: Like one is definitely like a charcoal looking black and white,

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Speaker 1: and the other has this kind of washed out like

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Speaker 1: orange and brown tint to it. It makes it feel

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Speaker 1: kind of apocalyptic in some ways, but still this Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this was roughly twenty years before we'd see such images

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Speaker 1: in cinema. Another key twentieth century figure in all of

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Speaker 1: this was editor and publisher Moses King, who commissioned many

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Speaker 1: such images for King's Views of New York. This was

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Speaker 1: a book that came out, and I've included a cover

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Speaker 1: from this publication for you, Joe, and as you can

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Speaker 1: see this one's just crazy with it. They're just bridges

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Speaker 1: connecting all of these skyscrapers, skyscrapers that look more contemporary

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Speaker 1: for this time period. But then also flying machines galore.

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Speaker 2: Oh, your city's full of biplanes, well minds full of triplanes.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep. I see some airships. Pretty fantastic looking. So

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Speaker 1: this is what would and Sophariic have to say in

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Speaker 1: their paper, and that paper again if anyone wants to

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Speaker 1: check that out, it is Skybridge is a history and

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Speaker 1: a view to the near future, they write. Quote. The

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Speaker 1: early Skybridge sky city portrayals came about as a direct

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Speaker 1: response to very real urban issues which were pressing at

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Speaker 1: the time. Primary of these urban issues was the impact

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Speaker 1: that both tall buildings and increased vehicular traffic were having

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Speaker 1: on the ground floor urban condition. Tall buildings were increasingly

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Speaker 1: growing in height and overcrowding the street, and the conflict

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Speaker 1: between pedestrian and the hicular traffic was increasing. The recurring

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Speaker 1: themes in all the early futuristic visions evolved as a

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Speaker 1: response to these problems, both the stepped back tiered skyscraper

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Speaker 1: and the multi level circulation system. The stepped back skyscraper

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Speaker 1: was seen as a way to preserve light and air

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Speaker 1: on congested, over developed New York streets, and the multi

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Speaker 1: level circulation system a practical organizational tool to handle the

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Speaker 1: vast number of new vehicles and people flooding into the city.

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Speaker 2: So to come in to rob, I don't think you

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Speaker 2: explained this one yet, but the idea of the stepped

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Speaker 2: back tiered skyscraper results also interesting. So you're imagining something well, actually,

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Speaker 2: this might explain the idea of the why the towers

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Speaker 2: in that drawing look like the tower of Babbel from Breugel,

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Speaker 2: you know that, like it's terraced I don't know what

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Speaker 2: you call it, stadium seating levels. You know they go

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Speaker 2: back each level, and this, I guess would let more

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Speaker 2: light into the city.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean this will also factor into a few

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Speaker 1: other design issues that and engineering issues that were definitely

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Speaker 1: present in buildings of that time period. And sometimes it

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Speaker 1: was like the code of the city that if you

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Speaker 1: built it, you had to have upper levels step back

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Speaker 1: from the street a certain amount.

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Speaker 3: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: Now, another name to mention here American architect, illustrator and

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Speaker 1: poet Hugh Ferris, no connection to Gail Ferris, junior of

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Speaker 1: Ferris Wheel fame. Their last names are spelled differently, but

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Speaker 1: Hugh Ferris another big name who created some images for

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine's The Metropolis of Tomorrow and Joe. If

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Speaker 1: you look at these, just beautiful art deco black and

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Speaker 1: white illustrations. These are pretty fabulous, Like this is Gotham City.

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Speaker 2: They make me think of the Oscar Statue for some reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't say why, but they are very pretty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I guess I just want to drive home that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this craving for skybridges and interconnected skyscrapers like this, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of this mix of this attempt to solve practical

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Speaker 1: problems while also clearly to you know, to create beautiful

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Speaker 1: architecture to bring dreams into physical reality. And I imagine

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Speaker 1: there's a bit of push and pull between those those aspirations.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and I think you you know, we've talked

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Speaker 2: about some of the dystopian associations of skybridges in science fiction,

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Speaker 2: but they certainly don't have to have those, And in

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Speaker 2: some ways you could look at interconnecting higher levels of

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Speaker 2: buildings as a very positive social outcome, especially given that

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Speaker 2: it just looks like, the reality is urban population density

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Speaker 2: is probably going to continue to increase. You know, there

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Speaker 2: are strong urbanization trends worldwide. People are more often just

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Speaker 2: moving further into city centers. In twenty fifteen, fifty four

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Speaker 2: percent of the world's population lived in cities. The World

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Speaker 2: Health Organization estimates that by twenty fifty that number will

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Speaker 2: probably climb to about sixty six percent. It's hard to

401
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Speaker 2: know for sure, but if you know, trends continue, so

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Speaker 2: people are continually crowding more and more into cities. Population

403
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Speaker 2: density is increasing, and where we're going to fit all

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Speaker 2: those people. There is no way to generate additional surface area,

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Speaker 2: So the main direction you have to go would be

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Speaker 2: up or down. So I guess you could dig into tunnels,

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Speaker 2: but you know, natural light is nice, so you want

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Speaker 2: to go up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And to your point, like access is also

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Speaker 1: a big point that's not necessarily going to be as

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Speaker 1: baked into the architectural design, you know, just to take

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Speaker 1: it in a different direction. It's like the difference between

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Speaker 1: a fully public park and a and a membership based

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Speaker 1: golf course in a city. Yes, like one of the

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Speaker 1: they're both big green spaces, but they're totally different in

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Speaker 1: how they connect with the city and the people of.

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Speaker 2: The city exactly. So you can imagine a city full

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Speaker 2: of tall buildings that are connected at upper levels, just

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Speaker 2: providing new kind of public spaces in the In the

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Speaker 2: better version of this future, where you know, it's like

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Speaker 2: the streets below, there's new things to see and do

422
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: up there, new places to live and sites to visit.

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Speaker 2: And so when you look at these sci fi visions

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Speaker 2: of a future where tall buildings are often connected by

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Speaker 2: skybridges and other lateral thoroughfares, again creating a kind of

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Speaker 2: like the canopy level of the trees and a rainforest,

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Speaker 2: it implies a society where one can travel from building

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Speaker 2: to building at the top level without ever having to

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Speaker 2: go down to the bottom, exit the building, and use

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Speaker 2: the surface level streets. And I guess what that means

431
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Speaker 2: about if you're trying to imagine the life people would

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Speaker 2: live in that environment, it's just a life where there

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Speaker 2: are fewer reasons to exit the high rise environment. So today,

434
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: if you live in a tall building, you probably need

435
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: to exit that building to do most things, to see

436
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: family and friends, to go to work, to go shopping,

437
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: and so forth. But what if all of those things

438
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: were also in the tops of nearby buildings, and you

439
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: could travel across skybridges from one to the other. That's

440
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 2: clearly a future that some people have in mind, and

441
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: it's not impossible to imagine something like this, But if

442
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: you are imagining that as the future, it's worth asking

443
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 2: how would this situation affect.

444
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: Our minds and our culture. You know, you can.

445
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 2: Such a radical restructuring of the you know, the location

446
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: and architecture of our lives. That's probably not totally neutral.

447
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: So has anybody looked into the question of what being

448
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: in a high rise all the time does to people?

449
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: Are there psychological effects of spending more of your time

450
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: in the upper floors? And it turns out yes, there

451
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 2: actually is a good bit of research on this subject.

452
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: So I came across a review of the existing body

453
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 2: of literature on this from twenty twenty one by a

454
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 2: couple of scholars affiliated with Cornell University. So this paper

455
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: is by Salah Culentari and Mardel Shepley. It was published

456
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 2: in the journal Housing Studies again twenty twenty one, and

457
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: it's called Psychological and Social Impacts of high Rise Buildings,

458
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: A review of the post occupancy evaluation literature. So this

459
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: paper looks specifically at what are called post occupancy evaluation studies,

460
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: which are the quote evaluation of buildings in a systemic

461
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: and rigorous manner after they have been built and occupied.

462
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: This systemic evaluation measures and monitors the performance of a

463
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: built environment using data gathered from behavioral, technical, and functional observation.

464
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 3: So this is.

465
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: What's happening in buildings after people have moved in and

466
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: lived there now. Unfortunately, this is another one of those

467
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: social science areas where there are lots of different studies,

468
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: but they aren't always perfectly easy to compare to each

469
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: other because they're not always measuring exactly the same thing,

470
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 2: or maybe limited in scope, or have results that conflict

471
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 2: with one another. But a few trends do seem to

472
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: emerge from this literature. The top line I would say

473
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 2: is that spending your life up in a tall building

474
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: is associated with some fairly consistent negative consequences for life

475
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: and health, especially for lower income occupants, but that these

476
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: negative effects can probably be mitigated or even erased by

477
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: better design of high rise living spaces. So what are

478
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: some of the negative effects that have been repeatedly found

479
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: to be associated with high rise living. I want to

480
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: mention a couple of these in more detail and then

481
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: give some summary comments. In terms of the ones I'm

482
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: going to mention in more detail, one of them appears

483
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: to be loneliness and social isolation. So since the nineteen seventies,

484
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 2: researchers have found that people living in high rises are

485
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 2: likely to experience more feelings of loneliness and less social

486
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 2: and community engagement.

487
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 3: Why would this be well?

488
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: The authors of this review right quote Ronald two thousand

489
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 2: and seven indicated a relative deficiency in social engagement in

490
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: a broad comparative study of European high rise housing and

491
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: attributed this isolation to designs that quote support individualization and anonymity.

492
00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: A study conducted in Singapore reported minimal neighborly relations and

493
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: concluded that high rise living quote does not readily build community.

494
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 2: So at least, what some of these studies seem to

495
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 2: conclude is that there's something about the way we are

496
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: building high rise building, the high rise residential buildings that

497
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: sort of discourages people from forming community relationships with their

498
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: neighbors and encourages a kind of isolated way of living

499
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: that sort of makes you feel like you need to

500
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: retreat into an anonymous space.

501
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: Oh, once again, I'm reminded of the lyrics of Warren

502
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: Zevon from Splendid Isolation. I want to live on the

503
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: upper east side and never go down in the streets.

504
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I didn't even think of that, but yeah.

505
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: And so the authors of this review that they look

506
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: at a number of studies from different places all around

507
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: the world Scotland, Hong Kong, India, which all found that

508
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 2: high rise living was more associated with things like loneliness,

509
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: anti social behavior, decrease trust in neighbors, and stuff like that. However,

510
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 2: and this seems to be important, I think the researchers

511
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: note that it may not actually be the fact that

512
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: you were high up off the ground that causes this,

513
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: Like it might not actually be the elevation. It may

514
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: be more the more kind of side effect resulting from

515
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 2: trends in the design of high rise buildings. In other words,

516
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: it may just happen to be that high rise buildings

517
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: are designed in ways that discourage social interaction and community

518
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: and that breed loneliness and isolation. But that would be

519
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: the case no matter what floor you lived on.

520
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: So it's not a case of well, if God wanted

521
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: us to live in the skies, he would have given

522
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: us wings. It's more of a situation where, well, we

523
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: human beings are not wired to live in this kind

524
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: of isolation generally speaking, like, we are social creatures who

525
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: need to have some level of community around us.

526
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: Yes, And also that there's some indication that maybe the

527
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: designs of high rise residential buildings, when they do force

528
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: interaction between residents, it tends to be negative interactions, like

529
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: the author's cite a study of high rise residential buildings

530
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 2: in Paris which found that people attributed their poor relationships

531
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: to quote, overcrowded conditions in their high rises, which they

532
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: viewed as prompting irritability and conflict. So it's possible that

533
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: differently designed spaces for high rise life would not produce

534
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 2: these negative effects at all. And then I thought this

535
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 2: was really interesting. To further complicate things, there are some

536
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: studies that don't find this association, or even find the

537
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: exact opposite, with people living in high rises having fairly

538
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: strong community bonds, especially when building designs include things like

539
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 2: central courtyard areas like common spaces where people can gather,

540
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: or when residents had pre existing external social connections meaning

541
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 2: that like, they know each other in some capacity other

542
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: than just being neighbors in the building. Maybe they work together,

543
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: or they knew each other before they moved in. To

544
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: read from the authors here quote. In many of these

545
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: latter studies, various sociological factors in the overall environmental design,

546
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: rather than high rise buildings per se, appear to be

547
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: more relevant to the health of social interactions. It's also

548
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: notable that all of the included studies that found positive

549
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: community relationships in high rise contexts were conducted in East

550
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: or Southeast Asia, such as Singapore, Taiwan, or Hong Kong,

551
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: while the majority of studies that found negative community impacts

552
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 2: were carried out in the US and Europe. And so,

553
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: I don't know what would be the cause of these

554
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 2: cultural differences in the impact of high rise buildings. I

555
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: don't know if it's a result of different trends in

556
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: architecture in these places or cultural differences, but those divergent

557
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: outcomes are interesting.

558
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: This is a fascinating Yeah. It reminds me. I've been

559
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: watching this show on Apple TV titled Home, which is

560
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: about different specifically about different home designs that have been

561
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 1: constructed that you know that explore new ideas or explore

562
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: old ideas, and in the show they do get into

563
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: some of some of the cultural aspects. It makes me

564
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 1: wonder like if multi generational households are a part of

565
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: this equation, because you definitely see I mean in general,

566
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: I think you see this trend away from that with

567
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: modern city based living, but perhaps less so in like

568
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: East Asian models versus European and US models. But I'm

569
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: not sure.

570
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, so that's the idea of loneliness and isolation and

571
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: promoting anti social living. But another thing is that many

572
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: studies have found a fairly consistent link between high rise

573
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: living and several negative mental health outcomes, though in this case,

574
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: again it's difficult to isolate the high rise itself is

575
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: the causative factor rather than attendance, social and cultural issues

576
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 2: that often go along with high high rise living places

577
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: where this has been studied. So if it is actually

578
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: living in the high rise building that causes negative mental

579
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: health outcomes, how would that work well? One explanation would

580
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: be that this is caused by reducing exposure to nature,

581
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 2: reducing exposure to vegetation in green space. If you are

582
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: up in the high rise and there's not much greenery

583
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: around you in the rooms, in the hallways that you occupy,

584
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: and being up there, you're just less likely to get

585
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 2: out into nature at the ground level. That probably will

586
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: have some negative consequences for mental health. And this seems

587
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 2: to be backed up by at least a couple of

588
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: studies showing that adding more natural elements to high rises.

589
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 2: So maybe if you include access, like you ease access

590
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: to green space from the upper floors of the high rise,

591
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: or you include green space within those places, that that

592
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 2: reduces some of these problems. And finally, the author cites

593
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: some probably important findings about the potential effect of high

594
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,239
Speaker 2: rise living space, specifically on childhood growth and development. So

595
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: they write, quote, A number of studies conducted during the

596
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies found increased behavioral problems, physical health issues, and

597
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: decreased motor and academic skills among children living in high

598
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 2: rise buildings. They say that these findings have been confirmed

599
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 2: in later studies several times, and then they write quote,

600
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 2: As is the case with other demographic populations, however, the

601
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 2: current research is demonstrated that these outcomes are strongly mediated

602
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: by income level and other socioeconomic variables. Children from wealthier

603
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: families who live in high rises are much more likely

604
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: to have access to vibrant play spaces and to experience

605
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: a greater sense of safety and involvement in the surrounding neighborhood,

606
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: which makes it unsurprising that they exhibit few of the

607
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: developmental issues that are widely reported for their less privileged peers,

608
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 2: and that last point about a sort of economic determinism

609
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: in the outcomes for child development can actually be extracted

610
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: to the findings of this research more broadly. So the

611
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: authors write in their discussion sect that you know, one

612
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: of the most significant trends observed here is that quote

613
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: the high rise environment appears to intensify existing socioeconomic divisions.

614
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 2: So there seems to be a kind of Matthew principle

615
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: at work, right, Like the rich get richer and the

616
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: poor get poorer. So when you study wealthy people, it

617
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: seems that the ones living in high rise environments tend

618
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 2: to report outcomes that are just as good or even

619
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: better than equivalent equivalently wealthy people in other built environments,

620
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 2: whereas for lower income people, living in a high rise

621
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: is correlated with a lot of negative outcomes when compared

622
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: to other types of buildings and this seemingly paradoxical result

623
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 2: could have. It could have a number of causes, so

624
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 2: it's hard to pin it down to one thing, but

625
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: to the extent that the built environments themselves are at

626
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: least one of those causes. A lot of these unequal

627
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,880
Speaker 2: outcomes could probably be alleviated by better, more humane building

628
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: design in affordable residential high rises, and so some of

629
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 2: the better designs would probably you know, couldn't be limited

630
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: to this, but would probably include things like the incorporation

631
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 2: of these vibrant shared spaces right essentially courtyards, lobbies, gathering

632
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: places which have safe, open spaces for children to play

633
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,959
Speaker 2: and explore and for people to gather. Also, on top

634
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 2: of that lots of natural light and greenery. These factors

635
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 2: seem really important for people's psychological well being. You need

636
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: to be able to see the sun, there need to

637
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 2: be plants around. And then they also call out things

638
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 2: like better wayfinding and layout design, though I think they

639
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: mentioned this more in the context of like commercial buildings,

640
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: though that matters too. You know, they say the floors

641
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 2: of tall buildings can sometimes be hard to navigate in

642
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: ways that cause a kind of stress and confusion that

643
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: really builds up on you over time.

644
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that feeling of exiting the elevator and not

645
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: really knowing like which way you're supposed to go in, Yeah,

646
00:36:54,239 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 1: and the case sort of getting lost in the hallways. Yeah.

647
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: So to bring all this back to the idea of

648
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 2: building this sci fi fantasy city, sort of the concrete canopy,

649
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 2: if we were to try to build cities that had

650
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: life that existed in a more consistent way and the

651
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: upper levels of buildings, I do think that's doable, but

652
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: it sounds like you need to be very careful how

653
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: you designed in that city. You'd want to design it

654
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 2: in a way that doesn't make people miserable and cause

655
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: these negative downstream outcomes for their well being and mental health. Again,

656
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: this is not exhaustive of the things you need to do,

657
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: but it seems clear that like a very important thing

658
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: would be putting plenty of things like parks up there.

659
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: And I think this is partially the spirit of an

660
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 2: architectural movement I've read about called Streets in the Sky,

661
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: where I think the idea is sort of to create

662
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: high rises in which there are lots of public areas

663
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: that are more like the streets on the not like

664
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: private hallways, but open spaces connecting desirable destinations that cause

665
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: that have plenty of foot traffic, and of course foot

666
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: traffic is associated with all kinds of positive outcomes in

667
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: residential areas, you know, resultant improvements in public safety, and

668
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: just a positive vibe that comes along with people, you know,

669
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: wanting to hang out and go from place to place.

670
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 2: I think attempts to design buildings like this may may

671
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 2: have had some limited success so far, but you could

672
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: imagine it working better if it was more widely adopted,

673
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: if you had more contiguous buildings connected each with destinations

674
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 2: for shopping in public spaces, especially lots of greenery and

675
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 2: natural light, places that people would want to go and

676
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: be walking around in all the time.

677
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess one of the big challenges here, obviously,

678
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: is that one skybridge is not going to fix it. Like,

679
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,879
Speaker 1: we're not talking about a throw up of skybridge. I'll

680
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: throw up two skybridges and we'll fix things. No, you

681
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: really are talking about a whole different approach to treating

682
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 1: these these towers, these skyscrapers, and they're uh, not only

683
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 1: you know what's available at the upper levels, but also

684
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: the street level as well, you know. I mean there

685
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: are plenty of existing apartment towers in cities like Chicago

686
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: that that were designed with the idea of, yeah, you

687
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: don't have to leave this tower, like here are your shops,

688
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: here's your here's where you park your car, and it's

689
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 1: all in the various layers of the design, and so,

690
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's almost like a teardown approach. You

691
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: would need a new type of building, a new type

692
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: of architecture to create the city. And and so there

693
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: have been some really interesting designs that have emerged over

694
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: the years. One of which that I've been fascinated by

695
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: in the past is a Russian concept that emerged called

696
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: the the Vulcan bugle. Okay, this is This can be

697
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: translated as cloud hangers, sky hangers, or guy hooks, and

698
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: these were the brainchild of a Russian architect by the

699
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: name of l. Lisitski who lived eighteen ninety through nineteen

700
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 1: forty one. I encourage everyone out there to look up

701
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: some images of these. These are what are sometimes described

702
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: as horizontal skyscrapers. They were never built, but the basic

703
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: concept here. The idea was that there would be eight

704
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: basically three story L shaped buildings in Moscow position fifty

705
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: meters above the street on three pylons. So yeah, imagine

706
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: one of those. Imagine a tetris block that is two

707
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: or three up and then it has a little L part.

708
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: Now imagine turning that horizontally, turning it on its side,

709
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 1: and then sticking that up in the air on a

710
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: massive pylon.

711
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: I think it's very cool design. Though you can imagine

712
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: being nervous walking under one of these.

713
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, you know, but I guess you'd get used

714
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: to it, you know, the same way we get used

715
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: to the concept of skyscrapers in the in the air

716
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: above us. But yeah, it's it's basically the idea here.

717
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: It's a wide, horizontal living space elevated with a very

718
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: narrow footprint on the street. So again, go back to

719
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier, like some of the

720
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: reasons that people were looking at skybridges, part of it

721
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: was congestion, vehicular and pedestrian congestion below. They're like, well,

722
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: we got to if you can reduce the footprint, then

723
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,720
Speaker 1: then that's great, and then if you can connect things

724
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: above even better. So one of the central ideas though

725
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: on top of this was that Lesiski didn't think that

726
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: vertical living was natural for human beings. He argued that

727
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: we needed horizontal spaces, and this sort of design, while

728
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: certainly still requiring vertical movement, you'd still have to take

729
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: stairs or elevators up, it would maximize the horizontal environmental experience.

730
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: I mean, none of the empirical researchers I was reading

731
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: put it in exactly those terms, but in a vague

732
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: way that seems to square pretty strongly with the research

733
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: I was just looking at that, you know, like that

734
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: these what do they call these vibrant shared spaces, Like

735
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 2: having these big, open, horizontal spaces seems to be very

736
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 2: helpful in creating a more humane living environment.

737
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. On top of this, there was the idea

738
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: that these pylons would extend into the ground, connecting to

739
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: a subway system. And then he also even factored in

740
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: the idea, Okay, if you have multiple of these these

741
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: these skyhangers cloud hangers in a given part of the city,

742
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: it might be confusing. They all look the same. No,

743
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: he's saying, well, color code them. That way you have

744
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: you're able to instantly tell where you are in reference

745
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: to another. So it's not just a bunch of sort

746
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: of alien gray buildings all emerging from the same area.

747
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: No one is say orange, one is red, one.

748
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 3: Is et cetera.

749
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: Also, these would be positioned at intersections where traffic and

750
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: congestion was that it's worse freeing up room. Yeah, so

751
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: these are these are fascinating to look at some of

752
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: the images of what could have been here. And while

753
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: there are modern buildings with fantastic cantilever designs that that

754
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: bring these images to mind, no Vocan bugles were ever

755
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 1: actually built, certainly not in Russia, and largely it seems

756
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: to be just two ahead of its time, partially as

757
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: a concept perhaps, but also just I think engineering wise,

758
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 1: Lisitski seemed to think, well, just we weren't ready to

759
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: build these yet.

760
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: You know, as I'm looking at these pictures, though, a

761
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: consequence was emerging in my mind. We've been talking about more,

762
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: more positive, more equitable, more humane ways to design cities

763
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: that are connected at the upper levels.

764
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 3: But I was just.

765
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: Thinking about how, to some degree, some of the benefits

766
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,839
Speaker 2: of of horizontal space are kind of zero s right,

767
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: because if you were to end up creating a city

768
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: that's totally covered in these horizontal spaces. At higher levels,

769
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 2: you'd essentially be cutting off the ground level from sunlight.

770
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 2: You know, like you get some diagonal sunlight, but there

771
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: are some limits on what you could put up above

772
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: without negatively impacting the quality of life below. And then

773
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 2: you get back into that possible vision of bifurcation with

774
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: negative consequences at the ground.

775
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, oops, I accidentally created a shell and created

776
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: a new underworld.

777
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought of that, because this goes beyond just

778
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 2: sort of like like hallways connecting tall buildings that might have,

779
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: you know, horizontal spaces that are vertically aligned with their

780
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 2: footprint on the ground. But this is like reaching out

781
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: over empty space. So if you imagine lots of buildings

782
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 2: like that, they just start to kind of become a like.

783
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 3: A roof for the city.

784
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And certainly when you look at look at these

785
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: these concepts, they don't or certainly the original they don't

786
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: really create this sense that the like a vibrant street

787
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: level community was very much part of the aim here.

788
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: Now looking into the future, would in Sepharik point out

789
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: that one of the lingering failures of tall buildings is

790
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: just that lack of integration into the urban fabric. So

791
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: obviously there are a lot of cool sky bridges, but

792
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: most buildings are not connected in this way. They're connected

793
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: to the city at ground level, and there's a broad

794
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: spectrum of what it might be like at ground level,

795
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: from having like a vibrant community and shops to it

796
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 1: just being you know, desolation in some cases. And so

797
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: the goal of many tall buildings, it seems, has very

798
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: much been not to fit in with the world beneath,

799
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: but to stand out from it, and so they present

800
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 1: an idea that may feel equal parts fantastic and reasonable,

801
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: and perhaps today as it has been for decades quote

802
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: if cities concentrate perhaps ten or one hundred times more

803
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: people at a given location through building tall. There is

804
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 1: also a need to replicate the facilities that exist at

805
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: the ground plane up in the sky, including the parks

806
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: and the sidewalks, the schools and the hospitals and other

807
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: public civic functions. The ground plane should be considered as

808
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: a duplicable layer of the city which needs to be replicated,

809
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: at least in part at strategic horizons within and between

810
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: buildings in the sky, not as a replacement of the

811
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: ground plane, but as an addition to it. Every tall

812
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: building would then need to be considered as a vital

813
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:45,359
Speaker 1: element in an overall three dimensional urban framework, rather than

814
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:50,439
Speaker 1: as a standalone icon superimposed on a two dimensional urban plan.

815
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 3: I think that's very well put.

816
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, this idea that again you're not replacing the street,

817
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: but you were augmenting it, you were replicating it would

818
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: have still have a vibrant street level a community, but

819
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: you would have this this sky level community as well.

820
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

821
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's some fascinating, fascinating ideas here.

822
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: I would obviously love to hear from tower dwellers out there,

823
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,879
Speaker 1: and former tower dwellers and perhaps future tower dwellers who

824
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: are listening to this show, because I, for one, I've

825
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: never lived in a tall building. I've I don't think

826
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: I've really worked in a tall building. I mean our

827
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: most recent well, I mean our most recent studios, our

828
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: most recent office building was what what fourth floor of

829
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: a building?

830
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 2: Well, the most recently the one we used to record

831
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 2: in a tall building.

832
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: I mean, but that was what what floor were we on?

833
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 3: A like four fifteen fourteen?

834
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: Really think?

835
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 3: So?

836
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it had a nice balcony. I remember that, that one,

837
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: that one, but I guess one of the things about

838
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: that building is that we had for most of the

839
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: run there, we had the entire floor and a balcony,

840
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: so we did have a lot of horizontal space, so

841
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: maybe that was part of it. We didn't feel as

842
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: locked in.

843
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: Also, though that original office had some cubicles, wasn't wasn't

844
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 2: full open office yet.

845
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I did love those cubicles. They were stylish

846
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: cubicles too. They weren't your They weren't like what you

847
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: would see on the office or something. They were more

848
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: like what you would see on Severn's you know. They

849
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: were fun cubicles.

850
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

851
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: But anyway, like I said, we'd love to hear from

852
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: everyone out there in different parts of the world. What

853
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: is it, What is it like living in the tall building?

854
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 1: Does any of this match up with what we've been

855
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: discussing in these episodes, or oh again, your favorite skywalks?

856
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: Tell me about your skywalks. What are your favorites is?

857
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: What has it been like to traverse some of the

858
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: notable skywalks out there in our world. In the meantime,

859
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of

860
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, head on over to the

861
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind Podcast feed get that. Wherever

862
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, you'll find core episodes on Tuesdays

863
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: and Thursdays. You'll find short form artifacts or monster facts

864
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, listener mail on Mondays, and on Fridays we

865
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: do weird el Cinema. That's our time to set aside

866
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 1: most serious concerns and just talk about a weird film.

867
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: I'll also add this, if you want to be a

868
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: part of the Discord channel or group, Discord whatever, Discord

869
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: world for this show, email us and we'll send you

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Speaker 1: a link to join that. I wanted to share that

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Speaker 1: some of the users there are doing a book club.

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Speaker 1: It looks like they are planning to read Umberto Echoes

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Speaker 1: the name of the Rose, So if you want to

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Speaker 1: get in on that again, email the show. Joe will

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Speaker 1: give you the email address in a second and I'll

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Speaker 1: make sure that we get the invite to the Discord

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth

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Speaker 2: Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with.

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Speaker 2: Us with feedback on this episode or any other, to

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Speaker 2: suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello,

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Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

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Speaker 2: your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 4: H Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.