WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Todd Rundgren 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.080 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.719 Ladies and gentlemen. Uh, it's another beautiful week upon us. 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:15.240 My name is Quest Love and this is Music We Paradise, 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.079 otherwise known as Quest Love Supreme. 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.800 I'm joined here by Fon Tikolo. What's up? Man? Yeah? 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:22.480 What's going on? 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:22.680 Man? 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.279 I never thought we would get this interview and being real, 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:27.480 I know this is real. 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.960 This is a major league shit. I know this as well. 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:35.199 Just get giddy, when get giddy and Steve, get giddy, Steve. 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:40.479 We did it. We did it, Ladies and gentlemen. 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.400 Nothing excites me more than when I get to pick 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:45.840 the brains of. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:47.680 A fellow Philadelphia. 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.720 Yehe like, what what can I say about our yesterday? 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:58.520 He's an absolutely he He's an unsung creative maniac. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:00:59.319 That's what I'll say. 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:05.600 He's an unsung creative maniac, excelling and songwriting and production 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:11.040 and engineering and especially engineering with techniques and ideas that 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.880 were planet seated and plant over fifty years ago that 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.040 we're just starting to referral even to this day. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.399 I mean, I don't think it's it's a hyperbolic for 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:21.960 me to say that. 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.520 You know, Todd probably crawled so that artists like Radiohead 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.440 and Prints and thunder Cat and all stops in between 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.520 can fly. He pushes the artistic envelope that, to me 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:41.680 is a major understatement. His achievements are it's just beyond description. 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:45.319 Ladies and gentlemen, stop laughing at me, Steve, I'm very 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:50.040 excited for this episode. Please welcome the endless flow of 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.760 creation and human form known to us mere mortals as 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.279 Todd run Grit, Shut up, Steve. 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:58.600 All right, yes, all right. 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:00.480 To say it. 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:06.800 Leave now, you know, Steve, It's it's all downhill from here. 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:10.000 You know, let me tell you something about sugar Steve. 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:15.760 He will remain silent on everything except for the proper 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:17.840 mispronunciation of your name. 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:23.120 He will Yeah, there there, there are. 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.480 Receipts from giving tickets to anyone that's ever butchered your name. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.359 No, that's run grit like he's leg still not right, 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:33.359 not right, he got. 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:34.800 It, He got it right on time. 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.880 There, No, Steve corrected me. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.280 Like ten years ago, I used to say run run grin, 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:41.400 like do run run grid. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.040 No, it's run grin. And there was a period where 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:47.799 I say run grinnen, but it's run grin. 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.440 So there was a period. Yeah, let it, let us 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:58.560 have Steve all right? Yeah, Uh, how how are you? 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.240 And uh where where are you right now? 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:01.840 Sir? 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.959 I'm at home in Kawhi and I'm doing quite well. 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.880 We haven't had a case here in like six eight 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:13.040 weeks of the deadly grown virus, so we're just waiting 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:17.320 for the rest of the world to clean up. And 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:18.399 I'm back on the road again. 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.639 I see, so you're kind of enjoying your. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:24.560 Well, I don't get on. I never get this kind 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.520 of time at home, and so I'm feeling a little 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.640 bit guilty about having all the time. But then again, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.480 so much stuff has piled up in my life that 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:36.560 I don't get to properly address that. I'm actually enjoying 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.720 this freedom for the time being. 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.320 As most of your time spent is it in on 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:46.080 the road or like how much of your time is 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.320 spent between like traveling and studio recording. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.840 Well, a while ago, I would say within the last 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.040 five years, I would be out as much as ten 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.000 months on the road because I'd be doing my thing. 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:02.480 I would be playing Ringo Star and then there's all 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:04.800 the other little odd things that get thrown there, and 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.680 you know, sometimes I'll go out on a tour to 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.440 tribute an artist, like I've been out on tours a 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:17.240 tribute David Bowie, and I'll be doing that again, I 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.839 think in November. If everything goes well with the various 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:25.200 things that I do, I would get maybe ten days 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:27.120 at home at a time and then be gone for 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.200 a month and a half another ten days at home then, 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:33.800 so yeah, I'm settling in. 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:37.599 Can I assume that, okay, that this is probably the 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:42.120 longest extended time that you've taken off from working, and 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:48.239 if so, are you sort of recharging your creative juices? 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:53.080 Because I'm often curious as to how, like serious creatives 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.400 that I know, how are they using this time off, 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:58.920 Like are they using this time to absolutely do nothing? 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:00.880 Are they? And there's time so. 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:04.400 That they can get more inspiration to create things, because 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:07.960 oftentimes it's like once you put out your first record, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.800 then you're in a cyclone of you got to promote 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.960 the tour it and whatever free time you have, that's 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.720 where you document the new ideas, and then you make 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.960 your second record, repeat rents, repeat rents, repeat rents, and 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.720 then once you have eight albums under your belt, then 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.560 you're just in a constant touring swoop, so there's really 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:30.240 not time to just sit in silence and create. Like, 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.760 how are you getting your creative creative juices off? 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.720 Well, I have an unusual creative process in that I 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.880 don't do what looks externally like a whole lot of work. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.360 Most of the work that I do is internally, just 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:51.960 you know, hashing through little musical ideas in the midst 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.800 of doing another collaboration record. As a matter of fact, 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:57.320 there's going to be a song with the Roots on it. 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:04.039 Oh yeah, I actually premiered it already. I did a 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.719 radio show for somebody and I played Godiva Girl. But 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.479 I'm doing collaborations and I was you know, I was 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.599 supposed to sort of deliver earlier in the year, but 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.559 the problem is that everyone's kind of stuck at home, 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.440 so nobody can get in the studio to finish up 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.440 a lot of the stuff that I've been working on 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.880 so lately, you know, from a creative standpoint, I've been 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.120 doing these collaborations, which allow me to work more with 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:33.640 other people's ideas than just always coming up with something myself. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.479 It doesn't mean I won't go back to that, but 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.640 this kind of solitude and silence is like what I 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.200 need to be able to write because of the fact 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.080 that it's such an insular and mental process for me. 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.400 It's like I'll be thinking about what I'm going to do, 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.440 and then when I finally get down to finishing a song, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.120 I'll come up with like the melody and lyrics in 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.960 twenty minutes, almost like automatic writing, Like my handle just 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.320 start writing out lyrics and I won't even have to 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.280 hardly think about it. So yeah, it's just kind of 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.000 I've let my subconscioence take over a lot of the work, 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.000 and then when it's time to actually create, it just 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:15.080 kind of spills out. 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.840 What would you say is your primary instrument? Because I 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.520 know you pretty much play everything, but what's your primary 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.400 instrument did you use to compose on when you get 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:24.040 those ideas? 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.160 Well? Keyboard is it is the principal I guess idea 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:33.440 musical idea creation tool because you've got like all the 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.680 notes laid out linearly in front of you. But that 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:39.160 doesn't mean that you know the limitations of like the 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.800 guitar aren't also something that's sort of inspirational. There are 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:48.760 sounds and sort of tonalities that the guitar creates that 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.960 you know, work with certain sort of vocal themes and 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:56.160 stuff like that. And of course, you know, Norwegian death 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.960 metal would be nothing if it had to play nothing 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:05.040 but piano on it. So, but from a compositional standpoint, 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.679 I actually sort of I have always considered the studio 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:13.080 itself sort of a composition tool, because I very early 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:18.840 on built one for myself in the belief that the 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.160 ideas could happen anytime, and you don't want to, you know, 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.280 have to wait to get into the studio. And conversely, 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.680 if you're in the studio and you're making good progress, 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.680 you don't want to have to get out and make 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.440 room for somebody else. So the studio itself sort of 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.720 became the creative tool because you lay down something, you 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.640 get to hear it back right away and decide whether 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:40.480 it works or not. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.880 And what's the don't skip over the most important thing 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:50.480 that he basically just said, engineers make the best artists. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:53.760 Studio. You know what I'm saying, Yes. 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.520 I know what is the That's why I kicked out 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.520 the engineer that I had when I first got into 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.439 the studio. Did my first production exactly never mind never mind, 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.959 I think it was well, it was The first time 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.000 I engineered was a band from Philadelphia called the American Dream. 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.920 It was a brand new record plant studio and they 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.679 had a custom board and nobody in the studio actually 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.359 knew how to use it. So I just got frustrated 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.800 watching one of the engineers fumble around on it. I said, well, 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.040 I don't want to just watch him learn how to 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.760 do it. I'll just learn how to do it myself. 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:34.480 And subsequently it changed the way the whole way that 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:39.720 I approached production because I could assume that the sound 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.480 was there because I knew enough about the engineering that 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.240 I you know, if you put the MIC's in the 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:46.120 right place and that sort of thing, you don't have 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.120 to do a whole lot of messing around, and then 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.720 you can assume the sound is there and then focus 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:55.000 on the musical part of it, on the performance and whatever, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.559 you know, kind of details that you want to put 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.720 into the music. So it made the ex sperience, you know, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.040 for the most part of working with a band a 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.720 lot different, because, you know, productions in the old days, 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.959 you get in the studio and you spend the first 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:13.480 entire day just getting drum sounds, you know, or something 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.960 like that. You know, and then the next day guitar sounds. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.520 You know, what's the percentage of. 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.920 Or at least like from from from zero to one 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:30.560 hundred of the idea that's inside of your head being 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:33.480 perfectly executed once you put it on tape. 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:39.720 Very rarely, But that's because I don't often have that intention. 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.560 I don't have the intention necessarily to completely craft something 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.120 in my head and then try and imprint it onto 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.400 the tape. I'm really, as I say, I'm exploring in 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:55.120 a way, I'm fumbling around. I often when I'm starting 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:56.800 a new record, I'll go out and do a lot 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.840 of musical research, like I'll ask my kids, you know, 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.920 what are you listening to? Or what do you think 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.800 I should listen to? Then go on YouTube and start 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.600 poking around, and then there's the sidebar. You start out 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:11.360 one place and before you know it, you're in a 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:12.200 whole other place. 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:13.480 You rabbit hole yourself. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.679 Okay, yeah, but that's you know. I mean that. I 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.920 really enjoy that because you discover things that aren't in 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.360 the mainstream, which to me is the whole point of 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.680 the Internet, is that everyone gets a platform. Of course, 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:31.080 not everyone deserves it. Not everyone deserves it. You know, 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:34.640 and you know, some people are easier to find, but 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:38.360 it essentially took the music business and flattened it, you know. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.120 In other words, there's no or very little price of 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.960 admission to participate anymore. All you got to do is 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.199 get yourself a laptop, you know, at a website. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:52.480 In the world's your oyster? What part of Upper Derby 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:54.280 did you grow up in? 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.760 I grew up in the very western part of Upper 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:02.880 Derby and a brand new post war row housing development, 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.480 a familiar kind of housing in the Philadelphia area and 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.320 Delaware and stuff like that Row Houses, which is essentially 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.839 like an apartment building that fell down. Every house looked 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.960 exactly the same. It was like one of these Levittown situations. 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:20.360 But it was very lower middle class, so you know, 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:22.880 I had to share for my entire life that I 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:24.880 lived at home a bedroom with my brother and my 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:26.480 two sisters shared a bedroom. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:29.560 Okay, how many? How many siblings? 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.640 Again, I have a brother and two sisters. 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.599 Did they have musical interest in what as well? Or 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:36.240 was it just you? 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:38.360 Not? Really? 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:38.600 No. 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.320 When I was in elementary school, we used to have 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.440 a program where you could rent an instrument, and every 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.240 week or so, somebody would come and give you a 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.080 lesson that wasn't like a band or anything. But I, 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.520 for some reason, thought I wanted to play the flute 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.520 when I was like wow, when I was like eight 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.040 or nine something like that. You know, I just liked 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.920 the sound of it. But when I actually got it, 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.520 I didn't realize what a nonlinear instrument it was. You know, 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:12.240 it's very difficult to learn, and plus when you're young, 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.480 it's difficult to get your mouth to the umbusure, to 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.160 get your mouth to do the right thing. So my 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.200 sister she got a clarinet, and I actually learned to 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.760 play that way better than I learned to play the flute, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:26.960 and she never learned to play it at all. So, 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:29.320 you know, I learned how to play Too Strange on 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.160 the Shore by mister Ackerbilk, and that thrilled my dad, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:36.880 you know, because he was into that kind of easy 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:41.400 listening stuff. But when I first heard I think it 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.319 was walk Don't Run by the Ventures. That's when I 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.760 knew guitar was what I wanted to play. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.640 Was that the first album that you purchased or like, 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.480 do you remember the first album you ever had? 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.800 Yeah? The first album that well, the first album that 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.560 I ever purchased was like a cut out of a 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.080 cutout bin and it was I'll be like sixty nine 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.960 cents and it was called Boppin' and a bunch of 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:11.440 artists that you've never heard of. Actually, years later I 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.240 did find run across a few of the artists, Like 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.160 if you go on YouTube, you can actually find performances 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.760 by Dike Watson and the Brown Dots. It was just 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:27.160 an odd collection of weird fifties rock and roll, proto 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:30.280 rock and roll, a lot of it. And it was 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.560 still before the Beatles, so I didn't have a whole 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.080 lot of discrimination. I just knew that I was not 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.080 into Elvis Presley because he was a greaser and the 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.000 greasers like to beat me up. So I had no 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:43.880 interest in Elvis Presley whatever. 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:45.760 So you weren't the cool kids. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.280 You like the loaner, Oh, the trouble loaner. Definitely, the 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.080 troubled loaner. Yeah, it was one of those things. I 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.360 had terrible add or whatever it is. They didn't know 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.360 what that was in those days. It was just an 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.360 unruly child. And you know, no matter what where I 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.840 started out in the classroom in the beginning of the year, 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:05.280 by you know, the end of the first semester, I'm 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:10.400 in the very back row because I'm creating distraction and 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.040 stuff like that, and I just was I was never 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:18.320 meant for that kind of that kind of discipline that 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:22.040 school required. So everything I ever learned, I learned after 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:22.760 I left school. 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.560 So what was the what was the moment where you 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:30.320 decided that this is this is my destiny, this is 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.200 my my my moment in. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:38.240 Music, Well, I had a high school band, and as 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.200 previously cited, I did so terribly in high school that 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.360 there was no possibility of me going to college. It 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:46.520 would only have been possible if I had landed some 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.920 kind of scholarship anyway, because my dad didn't make that 0:15:50.040 --> 0:15:56.120 much money. And so after high school graduation, which was 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.320 just around my eighteenth birthday. On my eighteenth birthday, I 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.360 packed all my worldly goods into a typewriter case. At 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.520 that point, I didn't even have a guitar anymore, and 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.240 I left home and went to meet a friend of 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.640 mine who was a drummer and we were going to 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.280 start a band, and he was supposedly in Ocean City, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:17.960 So I got on a bus. It was my eighteenth birthday, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:19.440 so the first thing I did is I went to 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.680 sixty ninth Street, right across from the sixty nine Street 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:28.880 station and registered for the draft. Wow and yikes, yeah, yikes. 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.320 And then I got on a bus to Ocean City 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:33.920 and met up with this guy. Well, I didn't meet 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.160 up with him right away because apparently he and he 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:39.760 was hanging out with some guys who were stealing park 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:43.120 benches and hiding them in their garage in Ocean City, 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.760 And so I had to find a place to stay 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.760 overnight till he had his court date the next day. 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:54.120 And then wait, why would they steal park benches. 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.800 In Ocean City. This is in nineteen sixty six. 0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.000 You just did anything, okay, yeah, yeah. 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.320 And so you know, I went to his house with 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:04.800 him and his parents. A couple of days later, we 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.000 went to see The Birds and the Shadows of Night 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.639 at a summerstock tent little concert thing. So it was 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.520 the Birds. They were big on radio, The Shadows of 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:20.040 Night they had a hit, and a local band called 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.960 Woody's Truck Stop. Okay, we were kind of excited to 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.879 see them because I knew about them through seeing a 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:30.520 picture one of the guitar player. One of the guitar 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.399 players in. It might have been Time magazine or something, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.440 because he grew his hair long and beat the system 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:40.520 because I was having trouble all the time. I was 0:17:40.560 --> 0:17:42.640 always growing my hair, and they're always sending me home 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.760 and my dad would send me to the barber. And 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.640 this was just an endless cycle. And he essentially beat 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:50.960 the system. He was a straight a student, and so 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:55.080 a judge said, you can't not educate him, so they 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:59.920 made him. They made the school provide him with private 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.399 telephone line. And there was a picture of him at 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.320 a desk with his long hair and a little speaker phone, 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.040 and I thought, man, he beat the systems, you know. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.400 And the way he beat it was he said, I'm 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.960 in a band, you know, I have to have my 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:17.119 hair long. I'm in a band, and so and so 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.600 I you know. I was excited to see them, although 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.280 I had never heard them. I had no idea what 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.080 kind of music they did, but they really like they 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.440 kind of like kicked everybody's ass. They had so much 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:31.600 energy and they were basically a blues band, blues and 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.080 R and B. They did like I think they did 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:36.920 a Sam and Dave song, and they did a couple 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:41.160 of blue songs. And so god, that's that's great. Let's 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:42.919 go see them when they play at the Artist Hut 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.560 in Philadelphia, which is no longer there. It's a little 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:52.480 it was a little basement club on Walnut Street, just 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:57.919 a block past Rittenhouse Square and held maybe eighty people 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:01.400 something like that, maybe one hundred people if you cram 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.520 him in there. And we went to see the band. Then, 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:06.439 as it turned out, their drummer was just a stand in, 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:08.800 you know, they could not seem to find a drummer 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.760 they could keep. As a matter of fact, the drummer 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.120 on the gig was Tim if I could don't remember 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.879 her name. He was became a famous songwriter and he 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.359 wrote Seventh Avenue I think was a hit song for 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:26.280 art Guardfuncle. But anyway, he you know, they were looking 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.960 for a drummer, and Joe, the guy that I was with, 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.439 he was just, you know, amazing trained drummer, you know. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.680 So he just sat down on the drum started doing 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:37.000 all his Buddy Rich stuff, and they said, okay, join 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.000 our band, and he was loyal enough to me for 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.360 some dumb reason. Then he said, okay, but you got 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:45.680 to hire my friend here, the guitar player as well, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.119 and they decided, okay, well we can go for that 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:52.879 because that allowed the so called rhythm guitar player. They 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.840 come up front and play harp, and then the band 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:59.600 looked exactly like the Butterfield band. And so that was 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.520 my first real gig, first time I ever got paid 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:07.520 real money. And it lasted for he maybe six months, 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:09.080 eight months something like that. 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:09.560 Wow. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.000 And then I then I formed an ass you. 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.320 You mentioned Upper Darby, I have to ask you, uh, 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:21.359 if you've spent any time in Val Shieveley's record store, 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:23.440 which is still open and. 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:24.520 Up and running to this day. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:26.600 Now, where was that. 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.080 Just in relationship to where you catch the l I 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:32.920 would say it's like two or three blocks away. 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.160 I mean technically that's around the sixth ninth Street area. 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:37.720 Yeah, around the sixty nine Street area. 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.879 I mean technically, I would say that he's the number 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:47.440 one forty five distributor end well, at least the SCIgen 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:48.520 says in the East Coast. 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:49.560 I'm certain that now in. 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:51.040 The whole of the East Coast. 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.520 Yeah, you go there and his whe would you say, 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:02.280 Steve that he has at least like six hundred thousand Yeah. 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.080 He's there, it's still there. 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.199 I'm still open so once a year I'll take a 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:10.160 maybe a two day trek and get lost in and his. 0:21:10.240 --> 0:21:13.760 Uh, where's that in relationship to the tower theater. 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:17.280 Across around the corner if you go to if you 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.879 go to a tower theater, I would say it's just 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.880 slightly slightly around the corner. 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:24.960 It's like walking distance. 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.159 I remember there used to be a place downtown on 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.040 Chestnut Street that was one of those you know, one 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.240 of those places that had like every single, every obscure 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:37.520 single that you're looking for that. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:41.159 Care right now, he's managed to just stay open and 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.320 and you know pretty much people just take pilgrimages there 0:21:44.359 --> 0:21:44.960 and do like. 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.560 Week week long great diggers. 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:52.560 Yes, exactly, he's okay post Rona. 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:57.280 Yeah, now he's by he lives aloner. 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.640 You know nine hundred that records. 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:05.240 He's like Harvey Peacar, Did you know who he is? 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:07.560 Harvey Peacard now Harvey Pea Carr. 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:10.320 He used to he would be on the David Lemerman 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.720 show every once in a while. He guy from Cleveland, Ohio, 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:18.719 like very angry, but his life's work was essentially collecting vinyl. 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.480 And I went to his house once and for an 0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:26.560 individual person, I don't know how he found the time, 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.520 you know, to collect the catalog so much stuff. But 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:34.080 I guess it's because he had you know, he worked 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:39.480 at the post office. Okay, so yeah, yeah, you never know. 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.320 So with the net with the NAZ that was your 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.560 when did you guys? You guys got signed in what 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:46.240 sixty eight? 0:22:46.960 --> 0:22:49.840 I think it was around and the band sort of 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.640 formed the band in the summer of sixty seven, and 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.000 it wasn't too long before we got kind of discovered 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:02.280 and whisked off to to New York not New York City, 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:06.720 actually Great Neck Long Island. The guy who took over 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:12.720 managing us, he he lived in a really nice neighborhood. 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:15.760 His name was John Curland and he actually lived next 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:18.720 door to Mary Travers of Peter, Paul and Mary. 0:23:19.520 --> 0:23:20.560 And he was and he. 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.480 Was a publicist. And one of the great things about 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.840 that was and when I would go to his office, 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.440 he was still all of the latest releases, you know, 0:23:31.680 --> 0:23:35.800 like who is this iron Butterfly? And what the hell 0:23:35.880 --> 0:23:39.560 is a Buffalo Springfield? And you know that sort of thing. 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:41.439 You know, he get wed you know, we'd get the 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:45.040 records before they ever got into the stores because they 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:49.040 were promos and in that sense, you know, we were 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:53.040 always like slightly ahead of whatever was was going on 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.480 in the public musically, but he really didn't know anything 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:59.040 about managing a band, you know, and he kind of 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:01.600 stuck us all together in a house in Great Neck 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.320 where and said, I don't want you guys to play 0:24:04.400 --> 0:24:06.800 until you get a record deal because I want to 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.240 be able to set you know, like a high ticket 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:13.320 price or something like that. And ultimately, you know, that 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:18.199 philosophy killed the band because you know, the only thing worse, 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.480 you know than being in a band and fighting on 0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.560 the road, you know, is being in a band and 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.879 stuck in a house somewhere and fighting all the time, 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:29.679 you know, because you don't get to break it up 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:34.080 with any playing. So that to me was a big, 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:37.240 a big disappointment. And as a matter of fact that 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.080 my time in the NAS only lasted about eighteen months, 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:43.560 but we managed to get two records out. 0:24:44.520 --> 0:24:46.119 Was there any I was excious to know? 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:51.919 Was there any crossover overlap between NAZ and Utopia, another 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.000 band you produced. Were there any guys that were in 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:56.000 NAS that went onto that band. 0:24:55.800 --> 0:25:00.960 Or No, there weren't, But ironically enough, Rick Nielsen and 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:05.639 Robin Xander of Cheap Trick. Eventually they became members of 0:25:05.720 --> 0:25:09.439 n NAZ for a brief period of time until the 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:12.200 band changed its name to the Sick Men of Europe. 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.480 Then eventually they left that and and started Cheap Trick. 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:20.000 And then I did, years later produce a Cheap. 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.320 Trick record, Which one did you produce? 0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:27.680 Next position? Please? Didn't have any big hit singles on it, 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:30.960 but they didn't have any big hit singles after that 0:25:31.080 --> 0:25:32.320 much anyway, So. 0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:36.800 Right, yeah, my band we h we actually sampled a 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:43.960 song you produced off Utopia, legally sampled. We sampled Eternal Love, 0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:50.000 off the Good Morning Sunshine, off the. 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:54.520 Cool Sample Away. I've never that never bothered me, you know, 0:25:54.600 --> 0:25:57.280 people sampling stuff. I always thought it was sort of flattering, 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:01.600 you know, when someone would excerpt your music. 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:03.120 Keep that in mind. 0:26:03.520 --> 0:26:06.480 Well it should be it should be noted that, you know, 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:10.080 many people think that Hello to Me made its debut 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:14.240 on something anything when the actuality it appeared on the 0:26:14.320 --> 0:26:20.760 NAS record. However, for a lot of black people, hell hell. 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:28.960 Yeah one of them, but Hello Hello, Hello, Yeah. 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:32.600 Okay, I'm really showed my age autisty drew. My first 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:38.679 hearing of that version, it was groove theory liked, not 0:26:38.840 --> 0:26:41.720 like groove theory. They because they covered it in like 0:26:41.800 --> 0:26:43.199 ninety five. I want to say that. 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:46.240 That was the first time. 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.680 You're telling me that you never had a mom hunt 0:26:49.800 --> 0:26:52.600 or grandma that cleaned the house on the weekend. 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:56.000 Not to that song. Now, I mean we have lived up. 0:26:57.720 --> 0:26:58.800 Right, It's like top five. 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:00.680 That was my first time. 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:03.399 My asley's was like because my mother was younger, so 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.199 Ale was like between between the ces, you know, I 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:11.560 mean it was I'll give you that. Yeah, it was 0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:14.280 all so yeah. When I heard, I was like, oh 0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:16.920 this is damn did this? Yeah, that was my first 0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:17.440 time heard it. 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.040 Was me feel better I do. 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:27.119 A fellow Philadelphian, so it's even more full full circle. 0:27:27.720 --> 0:27:31.440 That is hilarious. Wow, that's amazing. 0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.600 Some one who got introduced to the song by the 0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:38.280 actual song. Well, like you pointed out, though not the original, 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:40.639 the original was was on a NAS record, right. 0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.800 That's correct, And the original was like you likely wouldn't 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:47.920 recognize it because it was like a really dirgy tempo, 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:51.240 really slow and sappy. 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.639 And I prefer that version of the NAS then even. 0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:59.840 And I didn't play guitar on I played vibes. Yeah, no, guitar, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:00.840 the version. 0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:03.960 I guess you're the first person that we interviewed that 0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:10.000 even put their footprints into psych rock or what they 0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:15.360 call uh progressive, I mean progressive at least under that 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:19.879 Under that umbrella was was the basic mind state to 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:24.720 rebel against whatever the status quo was. Like, what was 0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:27.720 your thoughts on uh, I'm trying to think of like 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:32.920 commercial albums that push the envelope, like say, uh uh couple. 0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:36.320 Of Old Is Love or the first couple of Yes records, 0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:42.120 you know, with the first couple of Genesis records. We'll 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:44.560 see there was a whole there was a difference between 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:48.280 like a so called American prague and English prog rock, 0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:53.040 because English prog rock was inspired by classical music and 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:58.400 you know, and more classical forms and old maybe something 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:02.960 to some extent folk music, English type type folk music, 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:07.080 whereas American prog rock was more informed by jazz and 0:29:07.760 --> 0:29:11.440 acts like Return to Forever and Weather Report, and so 0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:13.880 what we were doing by that time, you know, was 0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:18.719 some weird combination of all of those influences, whether Report, 0:29:18.760 --> 0:29:24.120 my Vision, New Orchestra. Yes, you know, jeneis gentle giant, 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.360 you know, all of those. The English prog rock, which 0:29:28.480 --> 0:29:32.280 was more you know, classically inspired and had classical themes, 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.520 and the American prog rock, which had more jazz it 0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:39.560 was jazz inspired and jazzier themes. So somewhere in the 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:44.200 middle it met because we had the way that we 0:29:44.240 --> 0:29:46.640 would write with. We would all just sit around in 0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:49.160 the studio and we would just throw ideas out and 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:53.480 we'd figure out how to glue them together. And everybody had, 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:55.479 you know, different things that they were listening to at 0:29:55.480 --> 0:29:58.920 the time. John Siegler bass player, he'd probably be listening 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:02.560 to a lot of return for and but we would 0:30:02.560 --> 0:30:06.160 you know, work other stuff in, like American classics like 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:06.960 Aaron Copeland. 0:30:07.880 --> 0:30:09.480 Oh wow. Yeah. 0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:12.880 So around that time, like what were what were the 0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:17.200 artists or the albums that were blowing your mind? Like, 0:30:17.240 --> 0:30:20.680 were you anti Sergeant Pepper's. 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:24.000 Or anti Sergeant Pepper? Well? I was. I had an 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:28.480 interesting reaction to Sergeant Pepper because I was a teetotaler 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:31.680 until I was twenty one. I had no drugs, that 0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:35.760 never drank alcohol, had no idea what people were talking 0:30:35.800 --> 0:30:39.920 about when they were high. And when Sergeant Pepper came out, 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:45.280 I was kind of disappointed in it because the album before, 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:50.360 which was Revolver. I thought was an incredible record, just 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.400 from the standpoint of the songwriting and the and the 0:30:53.400 --> 0:30:57.280 production innovations that went into it, and it seemed like, 0:30:57.360 --> 0:30:59.800 you know, they were just reinventing music all the time, 0:30:59.840 --> 0:31:05.280 and Sergeant Pepper was just very imitative of English music 0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:10.120 hall kind of yeah, that sort of stuff. Well, you know, 0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:13.280 it's where it was, you know, circus music, that sort 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:17.360 of thing. Yeah, yeah, and uh. And people will say, like, 0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:20.280 you know, it's a completely different album when you're on acid, 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:24.760 you know, And I said, well, I don't take acid, 0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:27.520 you know. So it kind of like I thought I 0:31:27.600 --> 0:31:31.480 must be missing something here. And so it never affected 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:34.520 me the way that it did everyone else. But years 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.800 later I kind of, you know, I got a little 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:39.240 more into it, and mostly because of the quality of 0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:42.440 the sound. There's a certain there's a space that they 0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:46.240 created in there that I don't think existed on a 0:31:46.240 --> 0:31:50.080 lot of records previous to that, an atmosphere or a 0:31:50.160 --> 0:31:55.120 sonic space. And I grew to appreciate that, and I 0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:57.719 grew to be less offended by things like within You 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:00.000 and Without You. 0:32:01.320 --> 0:32:02.280 So what led to. 0:32:03.840 --> 0:32:07.120 You leaving NAS and starting your own What was the 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:09.200 process in starting your own solo work. 0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:14.920 Part of it was, I guess, the inevitability of me absorbing, 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:20.440 absorbing broader influences than the ones that originally went into 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:24.560 the NAS. We characterized the NAS as a combination of 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:27.440 The Who and the Beach Boys. In other words, we 0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.080 wanted to do that. We wanted to perform like The 0:32:30.120 --> 0:32:34.200 Who at the dis Yeah and this or everything, but 0:32:34.320 --> 0:32:36.800 be able to do harmonies like the Beach Boys. And 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:39.000 it's not that much of a stretch because the Beach 0:32:39.080 --> 0:32:45.320 Boys was Keith Moon's favorite band, and that's why Who 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:48.200 did a cover version of Barbaring. They would let him 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:53.120 sing that every night on stage. I got completely enthralled 0:32:53.200 --> 0:32:57.479 with Laura Nero and Eli in the Thirteenth Confession when 0:32:57.520 --> 0:33:01.840 that album came out. That just been up the skies 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:05.479 for me, and I had never heard anyone sort of 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:10.520 like be so revelatory in their performance, really interesting and 0:33:10.640 --> 0:33:15.360 intricate in the songwriting, and very sophisticated in the harmonics. 0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:19.320 And of course she sang great, and I was so 0:33:19.800 --> 0:33:23.120 kind of like taken with her that I asked my manager, 0:33:23.240 --> 0:33:26.320 John Curland at the time if he could somehow get 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:30.040 me an audience with her. And so he called up 0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.360 David Geffen, who was an accountant at Columbia Records at 0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:38.120 the time, Wow, but was kind of like the contact 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:42.880 guy to Laura Neiro and managed to She allowed me 0:33:42.920 --> 0:33:46.480 to come up to her apartment in the Dakota and 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.120 she made tuna fish casserole, which is the only thing 0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:52.400 she knew how to make, and that's why her publishing 0:33:52.440 --> 0:33:57.480 company was called Tuna Fish Music. And she played the 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:01.200 piano and sang, you know, sang all these and played 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:02.880 the piano and wanted me to sing along, but I 0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:05.680 was just too petrified. But the thing I remember from 0:34:05.720 --> 0:34:08.120 is she let her fingernails grow so long that they 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:10.839 curled over, you know, Like her fingernails were like at 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.840 least three inches long, and so and so when she 0:34:13.880 --> 0:34:16.520 was playing the piano, it would be this clattering noise, 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:19.520 you know. And I don't remember hearing that on the record, 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.319 you know. But she called me back like two weeks 0:34:23.400 --> 0:34:24.840 later and went up to visit her again, and she 0:34:24.920 --> 0:34:28.560 asked if I would be her band leader, and I, 0:34:28.800 --> 0:34:30.400 you know, so I have to think about it, but 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:32.520 I knew that I couldn't because the NASA had just 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:36.279 signed a record contract and her first album was about 0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:39.320 to come out, but between the first and second albums, 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:41.799 I started writing like Laura Niro and none of that 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:48.120 fit and it caused a big debacle. During the recording 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:51.760 of the second album, which was originally a double album, 0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:53.680 about half of it I was singing and it was 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:58.279 all Laura Nero songs, and so essentially they cut the 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:00.600 album in half. And when they did that, I quit 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:03.880 the band and lived on the street for a while 0:35:04.239 --> 0:35:08.000 until the partner of the guy who was managing the 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.799 NAZ looked me up. He had gone to work for 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:14.440 Albert Grossman, and Albert said, you know, I want you 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:16.840 to go out and find some young talent, because everybody 0:35:16.840 --> 0:35:20.319 I got ye is old, you know. He you know, 0:35:20.360 --> 0:35:22.880 he had Bob Dylan, and he had Peter Palm Mary 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:26.560 and then then he was getting into some more contemporary 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:29.360 X but the only one that he ever actually signed 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:32.800 was Jennis Joplin, and within a year she was gone. 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:37.480 You're supposed to producer, correct, I. 0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:41.080 Was supposed to producer, but you know, all these things 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:45.719 don't always work out, you know. Some in retrospect, I 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.160 deduced that the problem was that she didn't really like 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:53.080 making records. She liked performing in front of an audience 0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:55.480 and records, you know, there was no audience there, and 0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:58.320 so it was just like she was lost in the studio. 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:01.759 It wasn't for her. She needed the response of an 0:36:01.800 --> 0:36:04.440 audience and I'm you know, I'm in the studio. I'm 0:36:04.480 --> 0:36:08.239 just thinking about musical concerns and stuff like that. So 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.160 eventually she got Paul Rothschild to finish the record. And 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.320 Paul Rothschild is one of these producers who knows almost 0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:18.600 nothing about music, you know, but knows how to knows 0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:21.000 how to pump an artist up. You know, It's like 0:36:21.080 --> 0:36:23.359 that was great, you know that was It doesn't matter 0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:24.200 how terrible it was. 0:36:24.400 --> 0:36:25.320 That was just great. 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:26.719 Can you do another one? 0:36:26.960 --> 0:36:27.239 You know? 0:36:27.840 --> 0:36:31.719 Like that? And they'll eventually accidentally you get the performance 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:33.640 that you keep. But the whole thing, you know, was 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:39.279 more psychology than you know, actual musicology. And at that 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:42.480 time that was my extremely weak suit. I was only 0:36:42.680 --> 0:36:44.800 in my very early twenties. 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:46.200 And Hey tied you briefly. 0:36:46.800 --> 0:36:48.759 You briefly went over to Struggle, but we do that 0:36:48.840 --> 0:36:51.440 kind of fast. Sometimes you said you were homeless. 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:56.440 I was, well, I wasn't literally homeless, because I was 0:36:56.520 --> 0:37:02.239 still signed to screen Gems as writer through the contract, 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:07.880 through the Nazath contract, they had apartments, you know, in 0:37:07.960 --> 0:37:11.239 various major cities in LA and in New York where 0:37:11.239 --> 0:37:14.120 they would just put songwriters up for you know, I 0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.640 don't know, songwriting sessions or whatever. They just happened to 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:19.200 have these places. So I was staying in one, but 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:22.879 you know, I didn't have a lease or anything like that. 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:25.160 And at that point I was spending most of my 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:30.279 time with clothing designers in the West Village. I was 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:34.759 designing and installing lights in a dance club. I wasn't 0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:38.959 doing no music whatever, stuff like that. When this guy 0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:43.480 discovered me and brought me into the Grossman organization and 0:37:43.600 --> 0:37:47.200 started pairing me up with everybody that was on the 0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:51.240 roster because a lot of the artists were not making 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:55.800 the transition into the seventies. Some of them hadn't fully 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:59.080 made the transition into the sixties. But I started doing 0:37:59.160 --> 0:38:03.640 like Ian and Silvia and James Cotton and ultimately the 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:07.279 Butterfield Band. And the mandate most of the time was 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:09.719 make the record sound more modern, you know, make the 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:14.839 record sound contemporary somehow. So I strove to do that, 0:38:14.920 --> 0:38:18.480 and they appreciated that, and then my big biggest break 0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:23.200 probably came when I did well stage Fright with the band, 0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:25.920 because the band was like the biggest band in the 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.759 world at that moment, and so getting my name on 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:33.560 stage Fright kind of got a whole bunch of other 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:36.160 stuff right after that. Hall and Oates was among them, 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:42.480 Graham Funk, Railroad Finger, you know, and et cetera. 0:38:45.440 --> 0:38:49.879 Only because of my affinity for collecting like weird rock 0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:54.520 proc rock stuff for sampling purposes or whatever. So there's 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:59.480 a there's a group called Paris that that's been stampled 0:38:59.480 --> 0:39:01.800 a lot and in the hip hop community with the 0:39:01.880 --> 0:39:04.120 drummer uh named Hunt Sales. 0:39:04.880 --> 0:39:06.840 Oh yeah, the comedian Super Sales. 0:39:07.200 --> 0:39:11.440 Is it true he's on Runt And if he's that's 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.839 the case, he's he was a. 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:17.759 Kid, Yes, he was a kid. I first met. 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:22.120 Drumming on your album as what like fifteen something. 0:39:21.880 --> 0:39:24.200 Around that's fifteen sixteen something like that. 0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:29.160 He was in his thirties when Bowie put uh tim machine. 0:39:29.400 --> 0:39:32.040 Yeah, that's yeah, it's so he. 0:39:32.080 --> 0:39:35.040 Was that dope at the age of fourteen fifteen, he was. 0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:38.640 He was getting drum lessons from well, people don't know 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:41.800 this probably if you know who Soupy Sales is because 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:43.240 people probably don't know who super. 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:48.239 Sales be on Motown, which people don't know that I have. 0:39:48.200 --> 0:39:51.400 To you can do it in your house. 0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:56.120 Yeah yeah, do you guys know he was a comedian, right, 0:39:57.800 --> 0:39:59.880 he was like he. 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:02.879 It was a Saturday morning. He was like Saturday morning, 0:40:02.880 --> 0:40:08.840 Saturday afternoon kids show hosts. That's how he got famous 0:40:08.880 --> 0:40:12.480 because his show went coast to coast when he became 0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:16.279 the Soupy Sales Show, right, But previous to that, he 0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:19.040 was a local late night host in Cleveland, and he 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:22.120 would have you know, he was like Johnny Carson, and 0:40:22.160 --> 0:40:25.000 he would have all the great all the jazz greats 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:28.759 come in and play on his show and talk on 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.520 his talk show. And so he knew everybody. I remember 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.879 going with him and hunting Tony to see like an 0:40:35.000 --> 0:40:41.720 eighty five year old Gene Krupa play at the jazz 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.920 club that was in the in the Plaza Hotel, in 0:40:44.960 --> 0:40:47.960 the basement of the Plaza Hotel, and it was so funny. 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.160 Jean group of grinning like he always did, but could 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:54.839 barely lift the sticks off the drum. But you know, 0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:58.520 he knew everybody in jazz, and Hunt got lessons from 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:02.640 Louis Belson, you know, one of the great technique drummers 0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:04.799 you know of all time, right and one of the 0:41:04.880 --> 0:41:06.880 and the first guy I think to do double bass drums. 0:41:07.640 --> 0:41:12.640 I met them at a place called Steve Paul's. The scene. 0:41:13.160 --> 0:41:15.400 There used to be UH in New York City, and 0:41:15.480 --> 0:41:16.880 in a lot of cities there used to be a 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:20.040 lot of music clubs where they serve no liquor. For instance, 0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:23.360 the UH the Cafe a Go Go in New York City, 0:41:23.480 --> 0:41:27.040 which was a basement club, very weird configuration. But I 0:41:27.120 --> 0:41:30.160 saw Cream's first gigs in the US. There saw a 0:41:30.200 --> 0:41:35.400 Butterfield band probably four times. There saw John Mayol and 0:41:35.480 --> 0:41:40.800 you know, all of these and and Richie Havens before 0:41:40.960 --> 0:41:44.600 would stuck, you know, you know, all of these greats 0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:46.880 would play in this tiny little club. But the but 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:50.000 you know, I mean the admission was probably ten bucks 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:53.600 and the one drink minimum was like a flower vase 0:41:53.680 --> 0:41:57.840 full of ice cream, you know, like a giant milkshake, 0:41:58.280 --> 0:42:01.319 because you know it, these places were all open to 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:04.520 underage kids. And Steve Paul's aceame was the same way 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:07.920 was you know, all ages if your mom would let you. 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:11.279 Because they served no liquor. And it was the same 0:42:11.320 --> 0:42:13.839 kind of place you saw the very first gigs of 0:42:14.320 --> 0:42:17.880 seann Onna, for instance, the very the very with some 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:20.640 of the very first gigs of just some of the 0:42:20.719 --> 0:42:24.680 strangest acts, like well the Nice, remember The Nice. 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:25.279 That was. 0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:34.160 Keith Emerson's band before ELP. I saw David Clayton Thomas 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:38.120 in a Canadian band called Raven before he joined Blood, 0:42:38.120 --> 0:42:39.160 Sweat and Tears. 0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:39.759 You know. 0:42:40.280 --> 0:42:44.600 The house band was the McCoy's hang on Sloopy. 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:45.200 Yeah. 0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:48.880 Rick Deringer and his little brother Randy, they were the 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:52.040 house band. And since it was all ages and since 0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:53.920 you never knew it was going to play there, especially 0:42:54.000 --> 0:42:57.400 the jam sessions which would happen after the build acts 0:42:57.440 --> 0:43:00.840 came on, they were amazing. You know. I was standing 0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:04.640 on stage on time with I'm trying to remember, but 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:09.400 it was like Dwayne Almon and you know, the drummer 0:43:09.400 --> 0:43:12.359 from Led Zeppelin and the bass player from another band. 0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:15.279 You know, just the jam sessions were amazing. I never 0:43:15.320 --> 0:43:19.280 got the jam with Jimmy Hendrix because I walked right 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:22.000 by him as he was coming into the club because 0:43:22.040 --> 0:43:24.680 I thought he was taller than he was, you know, 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:27.400 but his afron only came up to my nose, so 0:43:27.480 --> 0:43:30.200 I thought, now they can't. Yeah, he's actually kind of 0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:33.560 a short guy, so, uh so I walked right past him. 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:36.640 I never even got to watch him jam So but anyway, 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:36.960 that's me. 0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:43.280 You're you're actually confirming the rumor that Hendricks was supposed 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:44.719 to be n E. L. P. 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.520 I didn't hear that, but that's an interesting it was. 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:51.480 Yeah, there is a rumor that the name of the 0:43:51.520 --> 0:43:55.360 group was supposed to be called Help Hendry DRIs. 0:43:54.960 --> 0:43:59.040 Emerson Powell and it was Lake Palmer. It was Lake 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:00.279 Palmer Pow. 0:44:00.400 --> 0:44:09.760 I'm some thing of Cole and Powell right now, I'm sorry, Yeah, no, right. 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:16.520 He was the original drummer in Journey Trivia. Oh we 0:44:16.560 --> 0:44:17.640 love our trivia. 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:21.920 So anyway, the place for it, you should be all right, 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:26.520 I'd say we grabbed Todd to be our seventh member, 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:32.319 of course of coust Love Supreme. So I'm skipping over 0:44:32.400 --> 0:44:36.239 to something anything which, first of all, I know, I 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:39.080 know back then, at least for for a double album 0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:42.280 to get released was a big deal. 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:44.520 I mean now it's nothing, but. 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:50.000 And normally I would think that double albums were a 0:44:50.160 --> 0:44:54.319 thing for uh, I mean proven acts that are you know, 0:44:55.160 --> 0:44:58.920 multi platinum and all those things. But I mean seventy 0:44:58.960 --> 0:45:02.880 two was just the level the level plane field was 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:06.840 clear and things were being defined. But the risks that 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:09.719 the artistic risks that you took on that record, Like 0:45:09.760 --> 0:45:11.640 what was your mind stake during that period? 0:45:12.080 --> 0:45:15.160 I was in kind of a great position, and it's 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.320 affected the way I'd think about making records ever since, 0:45:19.160 --> 0:45:27.279 because I was producing records for the Grossman organization, but 0:45:27.360 --> 0:45:30.560 I was still writing songs and I have musical ideas, 0:45:30.600 --> 0:45:33.719 but I had no inclination at all in becoming like 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:37.440 an actual, you know, bankable artists that had to go 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:39.040 out on the road and play and stuff like that. 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:44.000 I enjoyed being in the studio too much, so I 0:45:44.080 --> 0:45:47.240 wanted to get these ideas out of my system. And 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:50.799 I asked Albert who or whoever I was dealing with. 0:45:50.840 --> 0:45:52.600 I said, can you give me a budget to make 0:45:52.880 --> 0:45:55.120 a record of my own? And they said, well, you've 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:56.759 been doing all this work for us, Sure we'll give 0:45:56.760 --> 0:46:00.680 you a budget. And then I recorded Runt and they 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:02.719 were kind of surprised at the result, you know, they 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:04.320 thought it was going to be a piece of crap, 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:07.799 and as it turned out, there was a minor hit 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:11.920 single on it, so that kind of sealed my fate. 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.879 I had to continue making records because I had had 0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:18.680 a single then the next and the first record was 0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:21.439 just a scatter brained effort because I had never made 0:46:21.440 --> 0:46:23.879 an album of my own and I just wanted to 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:28.080 capture all of these various musical ideas and to work 0:46:28.120 --> 0:46:32.279 with musicians that I really wanted to work with. Then 0:46:32.440 --> 0:46:36.200 I got to my second album. Between the first and 0:46:36.320 --> 0:46:39.040 second album, I discovered marijuana. 0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:39.400 And. 0:46:41.719 --> 0:46:44.520 An ironic thing is it gave me a much more 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:48.399 ordered approach to songwriting, you know, in other words, yeah, 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:51.000 I was. It made me less scatterbrained when it came 0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:54.080 to songwriting. So the next record that I made, which 0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:56.839 was called The Ballad, and that one really fell through 0:46:56.840 --> 0:47:03.120 the cracks because Bearsville changed their distribution from Ampex, which 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:07.080 was a tape company, to Warner Brothers right in the 0:47:07.120 --> 0:47:08.600 middle of when that album got released. 0:47:08.640 --> 0:47:11.640 So it just kind of so Bearsville was not your label. 0:47:11.760 --> 0:47:14.959 I always always thought that was your indie label. 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:15.320 Whatever. 0:47:15.600 --> 0:47:20.360 No, that's Albert Grossman's, yeah, you know, since I was 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:23.759 working for him, I was on it, and so that 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:26.799 was surprising. And then the second record was just much 0:47:26.800 --> 0:47:31.040 more coherent and much more songwriterly record. And then when 0:47:31.040 --> 0:47:34.120 I got to something anything, I moved to LA for 0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:36.279 a year, got a house so that I would be, 0:47:36.520 --> 0:47:40.200 you know, have nothing to do but make music, and 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:44.200 I would record in this little studio called ID Sound 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:46.840 where we did the NASA records during the day. Then 0:47:46.920 --> 0:47:50.120 I go home at night and write and do some 0:47:50.160 --> 0:47:53.560 other recording. I rented an eight track machine and recorded 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:56.880 some of the more bizarre things from the record, like 0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:01.480 went to the mirror, it sounds sounds of the studio 0:48:01.560 --> 0:48:02.319 and that sort of thing. 0:48:03.080 --> 0:48:05.520 Why and how did you create intro. 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:09.440 Intro meeting the sounds of the studio? Is that it? 0:48:10.360 --> 0:48:10.560 Yes? 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.920 Or the one on the very last side, which is 0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:18.080 found tapes for my high school band and stuff. 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:19.880 Well, the one on the last side where you introduced 0:48:19.920 --> 0:48:21.600 hissing reverb and. 0:48:21.640 --> 0:48:24.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's that it sounds of the studio. 0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:28.480 Well it was course, you know the analog days, you know, 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:33.719 and analog had its own sort of issues and responsibilities 0:48:34.160 --> 0:48:38.920 and stuff like that, you know, which nobody nowadays much recalls. 0:48:39.480 --> 0:48:42.200 But before you could do a session, someone would have 0:48:42.239 --> 0:48:45.280 to come in. They would have to clean the heads 0:48:45.600 --> 0:48:49.640 on the machine, they take a swab and swab down 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.880 all of the heads and rollers and stuff on the machine. 0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:58.160 They would lay tone down on the tape reference tone. 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.719 It's kind of like a and for tape ops, you know, 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:04.560 because which is a lost art. But in the analog days, 0:49:04.560 --> 0:49:07.000 you had to do all of these little rituals like 0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:10.799 cleaning the heads and the pintrollers and laying tone down 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:14.520 on the tape and being the guy who gets yelled 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:18.240 at when you accidentally punch in in the wrong place, 0:49:19.120 --> 0:49:25.000 or or the guy who gets yelled at because the 0:49:25.120 --> 0:49:29.360 tape broke or something like that. So, you know, analog 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:32.719 recording there was this whole other range of issues you 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:35.200 had to be conscious of that. Of course the music 0:49:35.239 --> 0:49:41.359 consumer never really considers. But since it was analog, you know, 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.480 in all the records I've make, at at least somewhere 0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:48.840 there's an analog glitch in it, you know, something where 0:49:49.280 --> 0:49:53.360 accidentally the tape got pinched or creased, but it's in 0:49:53.400 --> 0:49:55.680 the middle of a performance and you can't do anything 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:58.759 about it, you know. And it's before digital where you 0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:02.239 could drop in something from another place, you know, and 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:04.480 so it just goes on to the record, you know, 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:08.200 and most people. It goes by. Most people don't even 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:08.680 notice it. 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:15.320 So, knowing what you know now, having dabbled in both, 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:20.200 you know the world of analog and digital, what is 0:50:20.239 --> 0:50:24.080 your what is your preference? Do you prefer the beautiful 0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:29.680 imperfection of the analog world or are you consistently still 0:50:29.680 --> 0:50:34.200 working for looking for the best experience of sound that 0:50:34.280 --> 0:50:35.720 you can get in the digital world. 0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:39.920 Well, I think a lot of people forget that, you know, 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:43.600 the analog world was an entire mailieu. It wasn't simply 0:50:43.600 --> 0:50:47.040 the fact that records were on vinyl. It was a 0:50:47.120 --> 0:50:51.520 fact that portable music systems had not been invented yet, 0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:55.040 and so if you wanted a personal listening experience, you 0:50:55.120 --> 0:50:57.840 had to go to your own home and sit in 0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:01.520 the sweet spot in your own system and listen to 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:06.200 the record. Ideally, nothing goes wrong in that situation. The 0:51:06.239 --> 0:51:09.160 record does not skip where nobody dances across the room 0:51:09.239 --> 0:51:13.400 and makes the tone arm hop around, or you know, 0:51:13.600 --> 0:51:17.520 or the base on the record does not interfere and 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:21.319 start to cause a rumble, and other sorts of you 0:51:21.360 --> 0:51:25.040 know artifacts, or the fact that the plain fact that 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:28.480 the sound on a vinyl LP is worse in the 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:31.400 center than it is at the outside of the record 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:34.760 because you're trying to put the equal amount of sound 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.080 in smaller and smaller real estate, you know, as the 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:41.600 record proceeds. So people tend to forget about all this. 0:51:41.800 --> 0:51:43.880 I'm sorry, I know that to most people that to 0:51:43.920 --> 0:51:45.959 most of you guys, that just sounded like one plus 0:51:46.000 --> 0:51:46.879 two equals three. 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:48.400 But to me it just went, well. 0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:53.960 Okay, here's the deal, so die in the vinyl world. 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.840 In vinyl world, it's probably to your best interest to 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:03.520 keep your your time under sixteen minutes. 0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:07.440 Yeah, because that way the maximize on you get the 0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:07.959 best sound. 0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:11.279 So the reason why they make twelve in singles, the 0:52:11.280 --> 0:52:14.239 reason why they make twelve singles is so that you 0:52:14.239 --> 0:52:16.880 can have one song on that record. 0:52:17.040 --> 0:52:20.480 So it's it's louder when it's just when it's a. 0:52:22.200 --> 0:52:24.439 Maximum maximum volume. Yeah. 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:27.719 Now, for instance, Side too of Michael Jackson's Off the 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:31.600 Wall record has six songs on it, So the records 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.919 are the gruves are really smaller as opposed to Side one, 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:38.480 which is four songs and louder. So if I were 0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:41.080 to play the title, if I would play Off the 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:45.240 Wall in the club from that album. 0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:45.839 The volume would be very low. 0:52:46.280 --> 0:52:50.040 So that I would have to do, yeah, as opposed 0:52:50.080 --> 0:52:52.600 to so yeah back in the day. I mean the 0:52:52.640 --> 0:52:56.440 reason why we use computer technology now to DJ is 0:52:56.480 --> 0:53:00.560 so that now I can make it loud as shit. Wow, 0:53:00.719 --> 0:53:02.560 it used to be problematic, like if you turn the 0:53:02.600 --> 0:53:03.760 volume up, you would hear. 0:53:05.520 --> 0:53:09.680 Like he lowen feedback and all those things. Yeah. 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:11.480 How many people y'all just sent back to listen to 0:53:11.560 --> 0:53:14.320 like their old vinyl Like that's that's what okay? 0:53:14.640 --> 0:53:17.239 Yeah, the more the more it's it's problematic. 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:20.080 Like probably one of the worst records I know that 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:26.759 has this system times no god, the worst mastered albums ever. 0:53:27.760 --> 0:53:33.360 I was gonna say, uh uh the Deaf Jams initial 0:53:33.400 --> 0:53:36.640 release of Public Enemy Spear of a Black Planet, where 0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:39.320 they actually try to cramp ten songs on one side, 0:53:39.400 --> 0:53:41.960 like they didn't make it a double album. They're just like, 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:44.640 fuck it, ten songs on one side, ten songs on 0:53:44.680 --> 0:53:50.319 the other side, and thus all this. Yeah, the more 0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:54.720 music you squeeze on a record, the softer it gets. 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:58.640 Well, it's funny. I didn't discover that record until I 0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:00.400 got it on a on a CD. 0:54:01.560 --> 0:54:02.440 Yeah, I mean it was me. 0:54:02.600 --> 0:54:05.799 I mean's amazing technology. 0:54:05.960 --> 0:54:08.880 That's an amazing record. Though, that's the that's the Sergeant 0:54:08.920 --> 0:54:13.280 Pepper of hip hop. That record. Wow, yeah, that record, 0:54:13.560 --> 0:54:15.840 you know, influenced a white guy like me. You know, 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:22.160 it's really you know, I thought that, can you do that? 0:54:22.440 --> 0:54:23.839 Can you actually do that? 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:25.480 Not legally? 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.360 Yeah, well we're doing it. We're not doing it, so. 0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:30.320 You just do it you get caught. 0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:33.560 Yeah, you just know. I just you know, I love 0:54:33.600 --> 0:54:35.920 that record. I go back to it with regularity. 0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:39.080 All right, Wait now you see damn see I don't 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:39.600 even want to. 0:54:39.560 --> 0:54:43.160 Go to ask them what. 0:54:42.640 --> 0:54:46.879 Well, no, I was gonna leap right to Hermit of Mink, 0:54:46.920 --> 0:54:48.480 but I don't. I don't want to lose faithful and 0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:50.920 all the other stuff. But all right, I know I 0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:52.720 booked you the last time when I asked you about 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:58.560 But that's just not normal. It's not normal. 0:54:59.200 --> 0:54:59.840 Not normal. 0:55:00.160 --> 0:55:04.200 It's not normal to be making shit like that. Uh yeah, 0:55:04.360 --> 0:55:07.719 long did it take you to make that song? And 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.080 where did you did you just have a sound effects 0:55:10.160 --> 0:55:12.640 record and be like, Okay, I'm going to figure out 0:55:13.360 --> 0:55:13.759 the song. 0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:17.320 Some of them sound effects, some of it as sound effracts, 0:55:17.320 --> 0:55:18.840 and then that's you know, a lot of it's just 0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:20.839 me making noises with my mouth all. 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.480 Right, and itever even bothered me that you would actually 0:55:23.520 --> 0:55:27.520 make the sounds by yourself. I thought, yeah, I thought 0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:30.520 you were just like one by one, like cutting pasting. 0:55:30.760 --> 0:55:33.920 Well, obviously some of the sounds are not human derived, 0:55:34.040 --> 0:55:36.640 so they would have to be sample from something, probably 0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:40.120 from a sound effects record or even me like making 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:41.680 some foldy for it. 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:44.839 But well, yeah, what I'm trying to lead to is that, 0:55:45.400 --> 0:55:49.239 I mean, between you and Miles Davis, Well, well, you 0:55:49.239 --> 0:55:55.160 know what with TiO Marcia, uh Marcia's name see Mao, 0:55:56.400 --> 0:55:58.440 with how they craft a bit just brew. I mean, 0:55:58.520 --> 0:56:04.440 these albums that you're making are just they're they're redefining 0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:08.759 what you can do and can't do with technology. So 0:56:10.120 --> 0:56:14.000 was it the fact that you just felt like, I mean, 0:56:14.080 --> 0:56:16.920 were you ever just unsatisfied with the studio? Like what 0:56:17.000 --> 0:56:20.320 studios were you looking for to give you maximum creation? 0:56:21.160 --> 0:56:23.279 And did you everything of a. 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:27.480 Day would come that something like pro tools would come along, 0:56:27.719 --> 0:56:30.440 like that would make your life easier. 0:56:31.040 --> 0:56:35.120 Well, I got into the idea of having a studio 0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:40.320 of my own on Wizard or True Star because I thought, 0:56:40.880 --> 0:56:43.560 if you're going to go musical exploring, you know, if 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:46.040 you're going to go musical big game hunting or whatever. No, 0:56:46.200 --> 0:56:49.640 that's that's Paul Simon. If you're going to go musically exploring, 0:56:50.080 --> 0:56:53.600 you need to be able to do things sometimes that 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:55.920 they won't allow you to do in a regular studio. 0:56:57.000 --> 0:56:59.160 I say, if we own it's a regular studio, let's say, 0:56:59.160 --> 0:57:01.680 but it don't turn that knob past there, you know. 0:57:02.520 --> 0:57:08.319 But if I have my own studio, well that's it's 0:57:08.440 --> 0:57:12.279 because they have to, you know, turn the studio over 0:57:12.320 --> 0:57:16.480 to somebody else when you're equipment. Yeah, it's like, you know, 0:57:16.520 --> 0:57:18.720 it's not just yours to do anything you want with. 0:57:18.880 --> 0:57:22.320 But when you have your own studio, that's exactly what 0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:24.320 it is. So we would put the knobs wherever we 0:57:24.360 --> 0:57:26.520 want it, you know. In other words, we wouldn't even 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:29.080 look at the meters. We would just listen, you know, 0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:31.800 and turn a knob until it sounded right, you know. 0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.080 And sometimes you know, the meters are just pinned in 0:57:35.120 --> 0:57:38.640 the red. But that's how you get that sound. And 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:39.440 ever since. 0:57:39.280 --> 0:57:42.080 National Feel off that album, it sounds like I love 0:57:42.120 --> 0:57:42.760 that song man. 0:57:42.840 --> 0:57:45.600 Oh yeah. A lot of it is you know, just us, 0:57:46.320 --> 0:57:49.960 you know, not not being not being like you would 0:57:50.000 --> 0:57:54.200 be in a normal studio, like in a normal studio. 0:57:55.320 --> 0:58:00.360 You would have somebody make sure that the noise reduction 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:04.520 was in the right the switches on the noise reduction 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:07.000 we're in the right locations, depending on whether you were 0:58:07.080 --> 0:58:11.840 recording or playing back, and we would find ourselves doing 0:58:11.880 --> 0:58:16.600 things like putting noise reduction on something and then bouncing 0:58:16.680 --> 0:58:20.640 it to another track forgetting to put the noise reduction 0:58:20.840 --> 0:58:25.120 into the decode board of it. So essentially it would 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:28.960 be like the most squishy limitter that you ever heard, 0:58:29.040 --> 0:58:32.120 and the highs would just be the highest highs because 0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:36.920 we were using DBX discolinear compression and I won't explain 0:58:36.960 --> 0:58:41.720 what that is now, but essentially accidents. You know, half 0:58:41.760 --> 0:58:45.160 of what happened on that record was accidents. I was wiring. 0:58:45.400 --> 0:58:48.840 I was on my back underneath the console wiring it 0:58:49.200 --> 0:58:51.760 while the musicians are coming in for the first session, 0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:56.480 you know, and we're just finding channels that work. You know, 0:58:56.920 --> 0:58:59.200 mark that one. I'll fix that later. But we just 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:04.520 we get enough channels to record everybody. Okay. It was 0:59:04.680 --> 0:59:07.200 like that all the time. It was just gorilla recording 0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:11.480 because you know, we had no studio manager. Nobody ever 0:59:11.520 --> 0:59:16.360 paid anything to use the studio. It was just we 0:59:16.400 --> 0:59:19.760 would contribute to each other's projects and stuff. It was 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:21.800 a little musical collective. It was great. 0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:26.160 And your your label, your label like Bearsville, How were 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:29.080 they were they supported because, I mean, cause a lot 0:59:29.080 --> 0:59:31.360 of stuff you were doing, I mean it was really unorthodox. 0:59:31.400 --> 0:59:34.520 And you know, a song like I Saw the Light 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:37.320 or you know, Cold Morning, like you know just, which 0:59:37.360 --> 0:59:39.880 is some of my favorite songs by you, but like 0:59:39.960 --> 0:59:41.840 those are kind of just, you know, kind of easier 0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:43.920 to digest. But then on a Wizard of a True 0:59:43.920 --> 0:59:49.680 Star you went really kind of heavy. 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:51.800 But have you ever got John Lennon's reaction to rock 0:59:51.840 --> 0:59:55.480 and roll pussy and. 0:59:55.480 --> 1:00:00.600 No, not that particular thing. Uh, And that was about 1:00:00.880 --> 1:00:03.080 It wasn't particularly about I don't think it was about 1:00:03.160 --> 1:00:06.400 John Lennon, although I can't remember exactly when that press 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:11.960 manufactured feud was, but yeah, they uh uh, some people 1:00:12.000 --> 1:00:15.280 at the label really freaked out. My friend Paul Fishkin, 1:00:15.520 --> 1:00:19.080 who later went on to found Modern Records, he was 1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:22.120 running the label at the time, and after something anything 1:00:22.160 --> 1:00:26.360 that had like three hit singles on it, I give 1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:29.520 him always a True Star, which doesn't which doesn't even 1:00:29.560 --> 1:00:31.240 have spaces between the songs. 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:35.320 You know, you know, when that record though I love 1:00:35.360 --> 1:00:36.280 this shit man, Oh no. 1:00:36.480 --> 1:00:38.840 But then you know he is freaking out. You know, 1:00:38.960 --> 1:00:41.480 he's saying, how do I how do I sell this? 1:00:41.640 --> 1:00:44.840 You know, this is the lost album. Now. Meanwhile, Albert 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:48.280 Grossman is just tickled pink about the whole thing. You know, 1:00:49.000 --> 1:00:51.560 he says, Oh, yet, let's drop the bomb on this one. 1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:54.800 We're gonna we're gonna make this a double gatefold die 1:00:54.880 --> 1:00:58.640 cut album cover. You know, we're gonna do records in 1:00:58.760 --> 1:01:01.400 colored vine Well, we did limited run a colored vinyl 1:01:01.440 --> 1:01:03.680 is something anything, but we're going to do some colored 1:01:03.760 --> 1:01:06.320 vinyl in there. We're going to get Patty Smith to 1:01:06.360 --> 1:01:10.360 do a you know, a little poem on a piece 1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:12.720 of paper and shove it in there. And a postcard 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:16.520 so we can solicit addresses from people and put their 1:01:16.600 --> 1:01:20.880 names in the next package. These were all his ideas. 1:01:20.920 --> 1:01:22.520 You know, I never had the guts to say, give 1:01:22.560 --> 1:01:26.120 me a double you know, give me a gatefold die 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:30.080 cut record, you know, to hold only one record. You know, 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:33.880 it wasn't a double album, but that record also was 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:37.080 the epitome of that problem with too much program on 1:01:37.120 --> 1:01:40.640 your vinyl. And I think it's either on that record 1:01:40.720 --> 1:01:43.520 or another record. I put something on it, and the 1:01:43.920 --> 1:01:46.120 company let it pass. But it was really sort of 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:50.440 in violation of general policy. I said, this record, you know, 1:01:50.440 --> 1:01:53.360 there's a lot of music on here. I advised that 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:55.600 the very first time you play you record it to 1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:59.000 tape and then listen to it from tape after that, 1:02:00.040 --> 1:02:04.479 because you'll be lucky if you get through once on 1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:06.320 the on the turntable. 1:02:07.040 --> 1:02:12.640 So with your your album afterwards, just based on the 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:16.200 lyrical content and whatnot. What was I mean by this 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:20.880 point you were an established you know, and an established start. Like, 1:02:20.920 --> 1:02:24.600 how how was it handling the success that you were gaining? 1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:27.240 Because I guess, you know, you said at the top 1:02:27.280 --> 1:02:30.320 of the show that you really didn't have any expectations 1:02:30.320 --> 1:02:34.600 to become, like, you know, a big star or those things, 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:37.160 and now you're dealing with it, Like what was it 1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:40.560 like to deal with it and too do these songs 1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:44.919 in concert? And well, even with that, like you're such 1:02:44.920 --> 1:02:49.200 a studio wizard, how were you able to kind of 1:02:49.440 --> 1:02:52.440 execute these ideas on stage by this point? 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:54.680 Well, I had to learn how to sing in front 1:02:54.680 --> 1:02:57.200 of an audience. I didn't. I was never a singer. 1:02:57.240 --> 1:03:01.800 I always delegated the singing to somebody else. The first 1:03:01.840 --> 1:03:04.080 time that I went out on the road was probably 1:03:04.160 --> 1:03:07.720 after after Run, after we Got to Get You a Woman, 1:03:07.760 --> 1:03:12.520 and I put a band together mostly of musicians called 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:15.400 the Hello People, who were a group of rock and 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:21.360 roll mimes. And I couldn't make it twenty minutes into 1:03:21.440 --> 1:03:23.480 a set, and in those days a set was like 1:03:23.520 --> 1:03:27.160 thirty minutes. You know, I couldn't make it. I couldn't 1:03:27.360 --> 1:03:30.160 sing for you know, more than fifteen twenty minutes at 1:03:30.160 --> 1:03:34.440 a time. And it took me literally years to develop 1:03:34.480 --> 1:03:36.160 my voice to the point that I could sing a 1:03:36.200 --> 1:03:40.320 whole show. The irony being now that I can sing 1:03:40.400 --> 1:03:43.160 all night, it doesn't seem to affect me. 1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:45.600 Were there any of your peers that you look to 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:47.480 to kind of did you do it in. 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:49.320 A way like anybody else? Any other artists that you 1:03:49.320 --> 1:03:50.800 looked at and like, okay, what peers? 1:03:50.840 --> 1:03:53.280 I mean the ones that are still alive. No, at the. 1:03:53.280 --> 1:03:55.680 Time when you how to do it his live thing? 1:03:56.840 --> 1:03:58.840 What fifteen minutes? That's what I meant, Like. 1:03:59.160 --> 1:04:02.680 Oh yeah, well, you know, it's not an uncommon thing. 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:05.560 And what happens is most people see I always had, 1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:09.040 I guess I would write aspirationally, I would write to 1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:12.520 the very ends of my range when I was in 1:04:12.560 --> 1:04:14.360 the studio, because all I have to do is like 1:04:14.440 --> 1:04:16.920 hit the note once and then we'll punch it to that, 1:04:17.000 --> 1:04:20.160 you know, just punch in every freaking note, you know. 1:04:20.560 --> 1:04:21.919 But then you have to go out on the road 1:04:21.920 --> 1:04:24.640 and sing all those notes in a row. And you know, 1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:28.640 I was just wasn't prepared for that. But what a 1:04:28.640 --> 1:04:32.280 lot of people will do, They'll just simply they'll compensate, 1:04:32.440 --> 1:04:34.520 you know, they'll say, Okay, I'll just lower the key, 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:39.000 or I won't write into that range. You know, I'll 1:04:38.840 --> 1:04:44.520 I won't, I won't strange. I won't strain myself that way. Yeah, 1:04:45.120 --> 1:04:47.920 But I was still always aspirational. I just you know, 1:04:47.960 --> 1:04:50.000 there were singers that I admired that I wanted to 1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:53.400 sound like, and so I just kept trying to do that. 1:04:53.520 --> 1:04:57.040 You know, I was a giant Stevie Wonder fan. You know, 1:04:57.080 --> 1:05:00.320 I was always trying to sing like Stevie Wonder, which 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:03.400 is an impossible thing to try and attempt in the 1:05:03.440 --> 1:05:07.000 first place. But I got just so much inspiration from 1:05:07.080 --> 1:05:11.080 his singing. And more importantly, you know, it was a 1:05:11.120 --> 1:05:13.800 weird artifact of the way they recorded at Motown and 1:05:13.880 --> 1:05:16.920 particularly the way that he is. His voice got recorded, 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:20.600 they put so much compression on his voice because probably 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:24.400 because he's so loud, you know that you could hear 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:26.960 every breath he took. You could hear every breath he 1:05:27.000 --> 1:05:30.960 was taking in between the notes. And it taught me 1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:34.680 how to breathe when you sing. It's more about having 1:05:34.720 --> 1:05:37.520 wind than it is about, you know, your throat and 1:05:37.560 --> 1:05:41.520 trying to stretch it hard enough to get to those 1:05:41.600 --> 1:05:44.760 high notes, you know. So I just I learned a 1:05:44.760 --> 1:05:47.480 lot from listening to other people' sing. But that was, 1:05:47.520 --> 1:05:51.880 you know, a revelatory moment when I suddenly realized I 1:05:51.920 --> 1:05:55.280 should just go and go in my car, drive around 1:05:55.280 --> 1:05:59.280 for hours, screaming my head off, just drive around screaming 1:05:59.320 --> 1:06:02.560 your head off. And after enough of that, I started 1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:05.120 to gain the stamina, you know, to be able to 1:06:05.160 --> 1:06:06.240 actually hit those notes. 1:06:06.760 --> 1:06:09.120 Is it possible for you to listen. 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:14.840 To music by other artists and not get in sort 1:06:14.880 --> 1:06:18.960 of the analytical mode of I wonder what mike they used, 1:06:19.320 --> 1:06:23.480 or what tubing or what the engineering was, and there's 1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:26.800 too much compression, and I would have changed this, And like, 1:06:27.280 --> 1:06:30.120 can you just are you able to listen to music 1:06:30.800 --> 1:06:34.560 without dissecting it as you hear it as an engineer 1:06:34.680 --> 1:06:35.480 or as a producer. 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:40.240 Well, like all things, you know, it really depends on 1:06:40.640 --> 1:06:43.280 the strength of the performance and the music. And this 1:06:43.520 --> 1:06:48.160 is in line with my philosophy as a producer. The 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:52.120 audience at large doesn't give a damn about so called 1:06:52.240 --> 1:06:56.280 sound quality. They think when they hear it the first time, 1:06:56.360 --> 1:07:00.000 they think that's how it's supposed to sound. They never think, oh, 1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:02.520 was too much reverb on this, or you know, that's 1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:05.040 you know, I can't hear this quite. They may have 1:07:05.120 --> 1:07:08.520 some they may have some subjective opinion about it overall, 1:07:08.520 --> 1:07:11.280 but they don't know enough about the process to be 1:07:11.360 --> 1:07:14.000 able to pinpoint what it is. So for the most part, 1:07:14.400 --> 1:07:18.000 if it's a great song, and if it's you know, 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:22.560 a vivacious performance, you know, if it's a great performance 1:07:22.560 --> 1:07:25.560 of that song, people don't care at all what it 1:07:25.640 --> 1:07:28.880 sounds like, you know, which is why I could just 1:07:28.880 --> 1:07:31.440 can never get into these high fidelity arguments, you know, 1:07:31.640 --> 1:07:34.520 with Neil Young or whoever. You know that you need, 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:38.040 you know, two hundred and fifty six thousand bits of second, 1:07:38.160 --> 1:07:46.479 you know, properly hear the sounds. Yeah, use it much, 1:07:46.560 --> 1:07:50.760 you know, there weren't. I don't know. The most hysterical, 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:53.560 most hysterical part about it is that it's coming from 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:57.439 Neil Young, you know, who did an album of him 1:07:57.520 --> 1:08:00.680 standing in front of a stack of marshals making feedback. 1:08:01.080 --> 1:08:01.280 You know. 1:08:03.200 --> 1:08:06.200 So he's talking about, you know, the finer points, the 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:11.880 audio fidelity. But you know, I've always always maintained that 1:08:11.880 --> 1:08:15.880 that is better to you know, if an act comes in, 1:08:17.400 --> 1:08:19.400 which is one of the reasons why I learned engineering, 1:08:19.400 --> 1:08:20.960 because you don't want to waste a lot of time 1:08:21.439 --> 1:08:24.280 on that. If an act is ready to make the music. 1:08:25.080 --> 1:08:28.559 That's my you know, my number one priority before I 1:08:28.640 --> 1:08:30.439 go into the studio with someone, I want to hear 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:32.400 the material. I want to know that we're not in 1:08:32.439 --> 1:08:35.160 there like pulling our PUDs, you know, over something, or 1:08:35.200 --> 1:08:37.000 that we suddenly got to call a halt to the 1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:40.800 session because we have to write a bridge, you know. 1:08:42.520 --> 1:08:44.640 So I always want to hear the material before we 1:08:44.720 --> 1:08:47.920 go into the studio to have the confidence that we're 1:08:47.960 --> 1:08:50.519 going to be making music in there and not talking 1:08:50.560 --> 1:08:54.439 about non musical issues. That's the most important thing. Second 1:08:54.479 --> 1:08:56.760 most important thing is, you know, is to get the 1:08:56.840 --> 1:09:00.360 artist in a mood to deliver that song you know 1:09:00.520 --> 1:09:03.320 to actually, you know, which is another reason why I 1:09:03.520 --> 1:09:07.479 like them to have written and ideally have performed the 1:09:07.479 --> 1:09:10.960 material before you get into the studio to record it. 1:09:10.960 --> 1:09:14.600 It makes such a difference because if somebody's reading the 1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:17.599 lyrics off of a piece of paper while they're doing it, 1:09:18.200 --> 1:09:20.800 they're not really thinking about what it means. They're just 1:09:20.840 --> 1:09:24.040 trying to get the words right, you know. And what 1:09:24.120 --> 1:09:26.120 you really want to do is convey the meaning of 1:09:26.120 --> 1:09:31.320 the words with your singing. So number one, yeah, getting 1:09:31.320 --> 1:09:34.840 good singing and good songs that really inspire the performers 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:38.960 get the performers to be inspired. Nobody really cares that 1:09:39.080 --> 1:09:41.160 much about the sound of it unless you've made it 1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:42.280 incredibly terrible. 1:09:44.479 --> 1:09:48.639 I had a question about about can we Still be friends? 1:09:48.680 --> 1:09:50.320 A lyric? Your lyric? 1:09:50.400 --> 1:09:51.439 I don't know if it was a lyrical as an 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:54.880 ad lib. Can we still get together? Sometimes? That's like 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:58.920 one of my favorite part in songing heard like can. 1:09:58.720 --> 1:09:59.639 We are we gounk? 1:09:59.680 --> 1:10:00.840 And this? Can we do it? 1:10:01.920 --> 1:10:04.920 Can we do it? Is it just can we hook 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:09.120 up and we get some coffee? Some shit? I how 1:10:09.200 --> 1:10:09.840 did you mean that? 1:10:10.120 --> 1:10:14.719 Well? You know, it's it's kind of an open question, Uh, Okay, 1:10:14.960 --> 1:10:16.960 you know, it's just you know, the whole whole tenor 1:10:17.000 --> 1:10:18.240 of the song is you know, a lot of people 1:10:18.320 --> 1:10:23.200 assume it's it's a romantic song. But I made a 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:27.000 decision at a certain point that most people when they 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:29.479 use the word love in a song context, they're more 1:10:29.520 --> 1:10:34.439 often talking about either sex or ownership. And I at 1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:36.120 a certain point decided I wasn't going to use the 1:10:36.120 --> 1:10:39.360 word at all. So for many albums, the word love 1:10:39.400 --> 1:10:40.160 does not appear. 1:10:41.080 --> 1:10:41.479 Uh. 1:10:41.640 --> 1:10:45.120 Then I decided that it's okay to use the word love, 1:10:45.560 --> 1:10:47.280 but try and do it in a way that isn't 1:10:47.320 --> 1:10:51.320 doesn't make things so specific that people always think it's romantic, 1:10:52.120 --> 1:10:54.280 that everything is always about a boy and a girl. 1:10:54.720 --> 1:10:56.639 And that's the same way about like can we still 1:10:56.680 --> 1:11:00.040 be friends? It's assumed that it's a guy in a 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:02.040 girl breaking up, or a guy and a guy or 1:11:02.120 --> 1:11:03.480 girl girl whatever. 1:11:03.360 --> 1:11:03.439 But. 1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:08.360 It isn't necessarily about that. It's like, let's say you 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:11.160 and a friend of yours worked really hard, you know, 1:11:11.240 --> 1:11:14.080 to build a company up, and then you realize you 1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:16.400 got to leave the company. You know, I can't do 1:11:16.439 --> 1:11:18.719 this anymore. I got to move on to something else. 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:25.040 That's you know, it could be that, you know, right right. 1:11:26.120 --> 1:11:30.680 No, Yeah, I always uh saw from the standpoint of 1:11:32.120 --> 1:11:36.720 maybe you know, a plea for kind of like a 1:11:36.760 --> 1:11:42.519 post amicable divorce situation or you know, kind of after 1:11:42.640 --> 1:11:45.200 the fire has burnt out. 1:11:46.200 --> 1:11:50.680 Yeah, but it is a very it is. Yeah, can 1:11:50.720 --> 1:11:53.080 we be civil? It's more like that, you know, it's 1:11:53.120 --> 1:11:57.280 like more like the overriding messages, you know, can can 1:11:57.320 --> 1:11:59.280 we go on? Because there are because there are situations 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:01.800 that are exactly not the opposite, you know. It's like 1:12:01.920 --> 1:12:04.760 there are people that you know you never want to 1:12:04.840 --> 1:12:08.360 encounter again ever, you know. So, and I have the 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:11.080 I don't know that I've written that song, but I 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:15.760 do have, you know, a philosophical thing about it, you know, 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:20.000 which is, you know, certain people. It's if you'll excuse 1:12:20.040 --> 1:12:23.360 the expression, I call it the tar baby syndrome. If 1:12:23.360 --> 1:12:28.040 you recall from the Song of the South. Yeah, Thorimus saying, 1:12:28.120 --> 1:12:31.240 you know, it's all about Breer Rabbit and brer Fox 1:12:31.280 --> 1:12:33.840 and beer Bear, and these are you know, antagonists. They're 1:12:33.840 --> 1:12:36.479 always at each other, you know, messing with each other 1:12:36.520 --> 1:12:39.680 all the time. And so Bret Rabbit finds this big 1:12:39.720 --> 1:12:41.320 ball a tar and he says, I'm going to play 1:12:41.360 --> 1:12:44.400 a trick on bear Fox and bereer Bear, you know, 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:47.040 because I know that they were going to they mess 1:12:47.120 --> 1:12:50.200 with strangers and stuff. So dresses it up and close 1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:53.400 and sticks it on a log, and sure enough brea 1:12:53.479 --> 1:12:55.760 Fox and bereer Bear come around start messing with it. 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:59.240 And what happens is that, you know, all has to 1:12:59.280 --> 1:13:01.679 happen is you stick a finger in there and suddenly 1:13:01.760 --> 1:13:03.719 you got it on you and you can't get it off. 1:13:04.280 --> 1:13:06.760 And then it's suddenly and the next thing you know, 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:08.639 they're trying to get it off and they're just getting 1:13:08.800 --> 1:13:11.720 more and more of it more on them. And to 1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:14.360 you know, the lesson to me was, you know, there 1:13:14.360 --> 1:13:18.280 are certain situations and certain people you should know beforehand. 1:13:18.560 --> 1:13:22.000 Don't even touch it, you know, don't put a finger 1:13:22.080 --> 1:13:24.320 on it, you know, because you will be paying for 1:13:24.400 --> 1:13:27.639 it for a long time after that. And so there 1:13:27.680 --> 1:13:30.479 have been people in my life which you know, they 1:13:30.640 --> 1:13:33.640 fall under that category. I say, don't even you know, 1:13:33.760 --> 1:13:35.840 you can imagine, oh, everything is gonna be fine, it 1:13:35.840 --> 1:13:38.120 won't be like it was before, and then the next 1:13:38.120 --> 1:13:41.439 thing you know, it's exactly like it was before because 1:13:41.560 --> 1:13:42.880 you changed what they didn't. 1:13:43.040 --> 1:13:45.720 They didn't Oh my goodness, Yes, that is universal. 1:13:45.800 --> 1:13:48.400 That's a word. That's a word, or at least today. 1:13:48.840 --> 1:13:52.479 When when the cover album is made, usually it's a 1:13:52.479 --> 1:13:55.080 period where like maybe people will run out of ideas 1:13:55.280 --> 1:13:59.960 and you run all the way up until uh to Faithful. 1:14:01.000 --> 1:14:03.400 And not to say that you weren't still pushing the 1:14:03.400 --> 1:14:07.080 boundaries because we didn't even get started on the Acapella 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:07.760 record yet. 1:14:07.760 --> 1:14:11.680 But with Faithful, what was the idea. 1:14:12.760 --> 1:14:17.760 Behind covering those to do those covers, because I mean 1:14:17.800 --> 1:14:21.519 the idea of doing a cover album or conceptual cover 1:14:22.360 --> 1:14:26.479 half album wasn't even practically a thing yet. I mean, 1:14:26.600 --> 1:14:29.519 I know that in the sixties to make records, people would, 1:14:29.560 --> 1:14:32.400 you know, cover whatever, like a Beatles song or that 1:14:32.520 --> 1:14:36.880 sort of thing. But what was your whole ideology behind 1:14:37.040 --> 1:14:37.839 making that record? 1:14:38.360 --> 1:14:41.879 It was actually to demonstrate how much radio had changed 1:14:41.920 --> 1:14:46.160 in ten years of Faithful came out in nineteen seventy six, 1:14:46.880 --> 1:14:50.679 and every song, pretty much every song that I did 1:14:52.640 --> 1:14:56.519 on the cover side of Faithful was on the radio 1:14:56.720 --> 1:15:00.920 in nineteen sixty six, okay, And what I wanted to 1:15:00.960 --> 1:15:03.200 try and do is recreate what it was like to 1:15:03.240 --> 1:15:06.240 listen to radio then where you would go from like 1:15:06.320 --> 1:15:10.599 the Beatles to Bob Dylan to you know, I didn't 1:15:10.600 --> 1:15:12.679 even cover the range of what was happening. But growing 1:15:12.720 --> 1:15:19.400 up in Philadelphia, you know, the DJ's highlight, and there 1:15:19.439 --> 1:15:21.960 was another DJ. I can't remember who he was, but 1:15:23.040 --> 1:15:25.960 I mean, the sixties liberated them and they would play 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:30.439 you know, Judy Collins, and then they'd play the Beatles, 1:15:30.479 --> 1:15:33.160 and then they played Bill Evans or some other jazz. 1:15:33.280 --> 1:15:38.000 And the radio was just really interesting in those days 1:15:38.040 --> 1:15:41.599 and enabled you to discover a lot more music than 1:15:41.800 --> 1:15:46.519 the kind of formatted radio that eventually happened, Like by 1:15:47.479 --> 1:15:51.840 nineteen seventy six, everything is syndicated radio. Everything's everybody's playing 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:55.680 the same playlist. So I just wanted to demonstrate, you 1:15:55.720 --> 1:15:59.719 know what, how eclectic music could be on the radio. 1:16:00.920 --> 1:16:06.320 The other side was just a handful of songs. But 1:16:06.960 --> 1:16:10.000 it's funny, a lot of those songs on the original 1:16:10.040 --> 1:16:12.320 side turned out to be standards that I do all 1:16:12.360 --> 1:16:15.920 the time, even to this day. 1:16:16.000 --> 1:16:24.000 So my personal favorite album of your canon is The Hermit, 1:16:24.200 --> 1:16:29.680 A Big Hollow, of which I well, I know that 1:16:29.800 --> 1:16:37.200 you literally did everything by yourself with correct how nerve 1:16:37.200 --> 1:16:41.560 wracking is that process when you are your own engineer 1:16:42.240 --> 1:16:46.400 and your own like, did you have a remote device 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:48.640 for the tape or did you like did you? 1:16:50.520 --> 1:16:54.440 Well, the thing is, how did you I did not, unfortunately, 1:16:54.520 --> 1:16:58.280 did not have a remote device or the tape. And 1:16:58.439 --> 1:17:02.840 my studio. I was using my my personal studio, which 1:17:03.040 --> 1:17:08.280 was up in Lake Hill, a little bit past Bearsville. 1:17:08.520 --> 1:17:10.320 I had a house, and then I had there was 1:17:10.360 --> 1:17:12.559 a little barn on the property, and the barn had 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:15.400 a loft in it, and so I enclosed the loft 1:17:15.920 --> 1:17:18.439 and made that the control room. But that meant that, 1:17:18.640 --> 1:17:22.599 you know, every all the instruments of any size, drums 1:17:22.640 --> 1:17:26.559 and such, would have to be downstairs. And so the 1:17:26.560 --> 1:17:29.719 most nerve wracking part, of course is recording the drums, 1:17:29.760 --> 1:17:33.360 because I would get, you know, like into it a 1:17:33.360 --> 1:17:35.240 little ways and then screw up and I have to 1:17:35.320 --> 1:17:41.560 run up the stairs. I was always very stingy with tape. 1:17:42.280 --> 1:17:45.880 You know, you were record over No, no, no, I would. 1:17:46.120 --> 1:17:47.640 I would just you know, if I would mess up 1:17:47.680 --> 1:17:50.920 a take, I would just go back. And a lot 1:17:50.960 --> 1:17:53.960 of people they would buy many reels of tape and 1:17:54.000 --> 1:17:56.479 they would go through make many takes of everything and 1:17:56.520 --> 1:17:59.640 then eventually maybe make a master reel or something. But 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:02.840 I was always making a master reel. I was always 1:18:02.840 --> 1:18:04.960 like going for the one take, then I would put 1:18:04.960 --> 1:18:08.360 a paper leader in and start recording the rest of 1:18:08.400 --> 1:18:11.360 the reel, you know. And so I was just very 1:18:11.400 --> 1:18:15.040 stingy with tape and don't really never really made a 1:18:15.040 --> 1:18:19.280 lot of outtakes. I mean, well, I either got the 1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:21.800 drums right or I didn't. You know, It's like it 1:18:21.840 --> 1:18:24.200 wasn't the kind of thing eventually, you know, if I 1:18:24.240 --> 1:18:26.760 got three quarters of the way through a take, then 1:18:26.920 --> 1:18:29.120 I would might stop and pick it up from there 1:18:29.160 --> 1:18:31.800 and then do a splice and the tape. But I 1:18:31.840 --> 1:18:33.720 always felt that I had to get as lead ast 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:39.040 halfway through it before I would consider a splice. Otherwise, 1:18:39.120 --> 1:18:42.519 you know, I would just stop rown stairs, rewind the tape, 1:18:42.920 --> 1:18:46.640 start put it in and record again, run downstairs and 1:18:47.160 --> 1:18:48.719 count it in, start playing again. 1:18:49.160 --> 1:18:49.320 You know. 1:18:49.439 --> 1:18:52.559 It's one of those things like I learned during something anything, 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:55.559 the first time I played the drums, the drums have 1:18:55.640 --> 1:18:58.080 to be first, you know. I started out thinking I 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:00.320 could play the piano part and that would give me 1:19:00.360 --> 1:19:03.200 some guidance about where I was in the song. But 1:19:04.400 --> 1:19:07.240 I could never lock into the piano because the piano 1:19:07.360 --> 1:19:11.439 wasn't actually you know, in any particular strict tempo. So 1:19:12.479 --> 1:19:16.200 I had to teach myself the song in my head 1:19:16.520 --> 1:19:18.559 and sing it in my head, the whole song while 1:19:18.600 --> 1:19:24.280 I'm playing the drums and click tracks. And because I 1:19:24.280 --> 1:19:27.559 couldn't play that, I couldn't play the click track either. 1:19:27.680 --> 1:19:29.360 You know, I couldn't lock to a click track. It 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:31.800 would just you know, it would be so obvious when 1:19:31.800 --> 1:19:33.519 I was trying to catch up to it, you know. 1:19:34.040 --> 1:19:36.800 But it also gives it more of a sort of natural, 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:41.759 natural feel. You know, it's amazing. You know, a drummer 1:19:41.760 --> 1:19:45.120 can sound like he's totally locked in time, but then 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:47.679 you put a click track, and then you find out 1:19:47.960 --> 1:19:50.280 that it's kind of all over the place. You know, 1:19:50.400 --> 1:19:53.280 it's feel you don't notice so much, you know, the 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:57.080 exact timing of of what the drums is doing. It's 1:19:57.280 --> 1:19:59.559 more about the field. It's a little push and pull 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:00.679 happening all the time. 1:20:01.520 --> 1:20:05.040 Yeah, I you know, I use a click track, but 1:20:06.400 --> 1:20:09.000 oftentimes I have to force myself to figure out how 1:20:09.040 --> 1:20:12.040 to purposely sound like I'm not playing to a click trek. 1:20:12.280 --> 1:20:12.960 Yeah. 1:20:13.000 --> 1:20:16.559 So you know, even though I consistently hear that pulse 1:20:16.560 --> 1:20:18.720 in my head, I have to now program myself to 1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:21.200 go behind it, go a little bit ahead of it, 1:20:21.280 --> 1:20:23.320 go behind it, go look, you know, just so that 1:20:23.960 --> 1:20:27.599 there's there's a human flow. Yeah, yeah, there's a flow 1:20:27.680 --> 1:20:28.960 to it. Yeah. 1:20:28.400 --> 1:20:31.040 I discovered that when I try to make a temple 1:20:31.120 --> 1:20:37.240 map to go Diving girl. Really, yeah, I discover when 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:39.080 I you know, when you actually try and you know, 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:45.599 the tempo map essentially is you change the actual speed 1:20:45.680 --> 1:20:48.439 of the recording as it goes along to match up 1:20:48.479 --> 1:20:51.640 to some something that may not be an e you 1:20:51.640 --> 1:20:55.040 know that might not be following a click track, even 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:57.360 though the song is mostly all the same tempo. It 1:20:57.840 --> 1:21:00.880 it moves in and out and subtle little ways which 1:21:00.920 --> 1:21:03.639 you don't discover until you try and lock to. 1:21:03.640 --> 1:21:14.519 It, right right, So okay, not knowing the history of 1:21:14.560 --> 1:21:17.599 it because you know, well there's no excuse to say 1:21:17.640 --> 1:21:20.759 I was eleven when it came out, but I purchased 1:21:20.800 --> 1:21:25.880 this record, you know, in the last ten to fifteen years. 1:21:25.920 --> 1:21:36.719 But assuming that the popular tortured ever popular tortured artist effect, 1:21:38.600 --> 1:21:43.559 can I assume that your relationship with the label sort 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:46.120 of went sour by that point because usually with the 1:21:46.160 --> 1:21:52.639 album titles like that, those things happened. But what also 1:21:52.760 --> 1:22:00.559 happens is. I would assume that that is your mind 1:22:00.800 --> 1:22:04.640 whatever project, and then you mess around and actually have 1:22:05.479 --> 1:22:08.080 because I know, being on the drum is uh being 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:09.960 the drum all day is on that record. 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:13.960 And so since that's your last record, am I am? 1:22:14.000 --> 1:22:17.840 I correct in saying that the relationship soured with Bearsville. 1:22:17.880 --> 1:22:23.080 By that point, things were not great with with Bearsville Records. 1:22:23.680 --> 1:22:24.080 It just. 1:22:25.960 --> 1:22:36.439 Albert Grossman was a peculiar personality and tended to go 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:39.800 hot and cold in some things. And even though he 1:22:39.920 --> 1:22:45.240 had a label called Bearsville, he never really promoted anything 1:22:45.280 --> 1:22:48.960 on it. He expected Warner Brothers, a distributor, to do everything, 1:22:49.120 --> 1:22:53.560 so he would be constantly making deals for foreign distribution 1:22:53.920 --> 1:22:56.320 and then take all the money and instead of promoting 1:22:56.360 --> 1:22:59.599 the records or anything he would build. He would build 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:03.720 a rest or something with it, you know. So he 1:23:04.439 --> 1:23:07.600 was very much into land ownership. So almost anything that 1:23:07.800 --> 1:23:11.360 you know that brought an income, he would buy something 1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:13.680 and build something on it. I felt that, you know, 1:23:13.800 --> 1:23:16.760 they first of all, weren't taking the whole idea of 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:22.920 records seriously, but also certainly not my records. It's not 1:23:23.040 --> 1:23:26.760 as if I thought that, you know, there were a 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:30.840 whole bunch of great hits on my records. You know, 1:23:30.880 --> 1:23:34.559 I've never never striven to do that, so I don't 1:23:34.600 --> 1:23:37.400 force the label, you know, to say to give me 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:40.639 hits or anything like that. But at the same time, 1:23:41.400 --> 1:23:45.679 I did expect that they would take the record seriously 1:23:45.760 --> 1:23:50.240 because I did have an audience. And in the end, 1:23:50.439 --> 1:23:52.439 you know, it was not as if I was doing 1:23:52.479 --> 1:23:54.800 a spoof of a record. It was just that I 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:57.840 didn't bother to develop any concept behind it. You know, 1:23:57.960 --> 1:23:59.600 most of the records that I do have got to 1:24:00.240 --> 1:24:03.679 some overarching thing that helps me figure out what fits 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:05.559 in the overall picture. 1:24:06.200 --> 1:24:09.240 But history will show that artists that you know, and 1:24:09.280 --> 1:24:12.839 this is the case with Shout by the Aisley Brothers, 1:24:13.080 --> 1:24:17.599 is the case with Tequila, is the case for even 1:24:17.680 --> 1:24:21.599 La Bamba, Like sometimes artists will Well, what I'm trying 1:24:21.600 --> 1:24:23.479 to lead to is that were you shacked at all? 1:24:24.080 --> 1:24:27.600 At how it became the sports world took to the 1:24:27.600 --> 1:24:28.960 Benga the trum all day. 1:24:29.120 --> 1:24:34.880 And it was a funny, weird kind of thing that 1:24:35.080 --> 1:24:39.320 happened with that. I think it started with the sports, 1:24:39.320 --> 1:24:42.640 but I'm not exactly sure, and I believe it was 1:24:42.800 --> 1:24:47.040 first like hockey games that they started playing it. Then 1:24:47.080 --> 1:24:51.000 two football teams, the Packers and what was then the 1:24:51.000 --> 1:24:55.480 Saint Louis Rams, started using it as their score celebration 1:24:55.760 --> 1:24:59.120 song because everybody seemed to know it for some reason. 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:02.080 But it was never a hit single. In fact, it 1:25:02.120 --> 1:25:05.040 was never released as a single. It was a B 1:25:05.240 --> 1:25:09.479 side I Think of Something, and it was never in 1:25:09.520 --> 1:25:14.400 a technical sense written by me. It was a song 1:25:14.439 --> 1:25:18.759 that I dreamed. I was like asleep, I was totally asleep, 1:25:18.920 --> 1:25:21.839 and this song is, you know, playing in my sleep. 1:25:23.160 --> 1:25:25.840 I have no idea what it means or why I 1:25:25.840 --> 1:25:28.200 should care, but I just immediately went down to the 1:25:28.240 --> 1:25:31.479 studio and recorded everything that I remembered from it and 1:25:31.479 --> 1:25:34.920 added words. But you know, the bang, the drump thing 1:25:35.000 --> 1:25:37.720 was all there. It was all complete, you know. You know, 1:25:38.040 --> 1:25:42.480 all I had to do was write it down. Sometimes 1:25:42.920 --> 1:25:44.960 it's not the first time that's happened. I've had other 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:47.479 songs that have just come to me when I'm asleep, 1:25:48.080 --> 1:25:50.800 completely formed, and then I have to go figure out 1:25:50.840 --> 1:25:55.240 how to remember and capture that. But it was like 1:25:56.240 --> 1:26:03.280 some mystical being wrote that for me and said, you're 1:26:03.280 --> 1:26:08.120 not going to understand now why you're doing this, but 1:26:08.360 --> 1:26:11.240 years and years from now, it's going to make a 1:26:11.320 --> 1:26:15.720 whole lot more sense, right, And then and then it 1:26:15.840 --> 1:26:18.880 actually happened. I mean, people started, aside from you know, 1:26:18.960 --> 1:26:23.320 the public usage of the song, they started people started thinking, oh, 1:26:23.320 --> 1:26:26.439 this is a great party theme to use for our 1:26:26.520 --> 1:26:30.400 movie trailer or party theme to use for our you know, 1:26:30.880 --> 1:26:35.080 advertising something. And they eventually peaked with carnival cruise lines. 1:26:35.560 --> 1:26:40.400 I'm getting six figures, big six figures a year just 1:26:40.560 --> 1:26:43.840 for them to use that song, right, and I would 1:26:43.880 --> 1:26:46.479 still be getting it except they started sinking all those 1:26:46.520 --> 1:26:51.120 boats decided to change their edge. 1:26:52.120 --> 1:26:52.360 Yeah. 1:26:52.439 --> 1:26:55.040 I was going to say that that song is the 1:26:55.080 --> 1:27:00.519 sound of a kid, a kid's brain and he gets 1:27:00.560 --> 1:27:02.080 extra chicken fingers on his. 1:27:01.960 --> 1:27:07.919 Plate, extra chicken fingers. 1:27:08.160 --> 1:27:10.280 Yeah, that's the sound of a ten year old just 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:11.840 in this happy place. 1:27:12.680 --> 1:27:16.880 You made a record called Arena and it has the 1:27:16.960 --> 1:27:19.479 song on it called Courage that I just really love. 1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:22.920 I just think it just beautiful changes, just a just 1:27:22.920 --> 1:27:26.040 a really great song. I was curious to know was 1:27:26.200 --> 1:27:30.960 Arena Was that you kind of mocking the arena rock 1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:34.559 kind of thing. Was it like a parody or was 1:27:34.600 --> 1:27:37.600 it a sincere tent? Because I just I mean, I 1:27:37.600 --> 1:27:40.240 love the record, but I know, just from listening to 1:27:40.280 --> 1:27:41.840 your music, kind of your sense of humor stuff. 1:27:41.840 --> 1:27:43.559 So I was like, is this him kind. 1:27:43.439 --> 1:27:46.479 Of No, it was, you know, I was pretty serious 1:27:46.520 --> 1:27:53.640 about it. It was the record was essentially me reacting 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:56.200 to the fact that I had not played enough guitar 1:27:57.320 --> 1:27:59.720 the last time, you know, the first time I had 1:27:59.760 --> 1:28:04.160 that's to reaction was when I was sometime around something anything, 1:28:04.840 --> 1:28:07.120 and I'm starting to write all my songs on the piano, 1:28:07.479 --> 1:28:09.960 less and less on the guitar, and I'm playing less 1:28:09.960 --> 1:28:13.479 and less guitar, and so I said, well, how can 1:28:13.520 --> 1:28:17.400 I compensate for this? So I started Utopia specifically as 1:28:17.439 --> 1:28:20.439 a project for me to play guitar. So I don't 1:28:20.439 --> 1:28:23.240 play any keyboards and any Utopia records, I play only 1:28:23.280 --> 1:28:28.599 guitar on Utopia records. Essentially, around the period of Arena, 1:28:29.040 --> 1:28:32.600 I started to get the same feeling. You know, I 1:28:32.640 --> 1:28:34.840 spent a lot of my youth trying to learn how 1:28:34.840 --> 1:28:37.240 to play this thing, you know, and now I'm just 1:28:37.479 --> 1:28:41.640 kind of I hardly pick it up anymore. So I 1:28:41.720 --> 1:28:45.640 decided to decided to do something that would basically be 1:28:45.760 --> 1:28:48.840 all guitar written, you know, everything would be written on 1:28:48.920 --> 1:28:53.200 guitars and it would be basically mostly guitars, occasional keyboards 1:28:53.200 --> 1:28:56.760 and other sounds, and to really explore, you know, what 1:28:56.920 --> 1:29:03.000 contemporary heavy guitar music could be like. And when we 1:29:03.040 --> 1:29:06.479 found a distributor for it, they said, okay, well you're 1:29:06.520 --> 1:29:09.639 so into playing the guitar, We just acquired the Robert 1:29:09.720 --> 1:29:12.479 Johnson's publishing catalog and we want you to do a 1:29:12.600 --> 1:29:16.760 cover record of Robert Johnson's song. So I got like 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:21.080 a double dose of guitar there. I did a record 1:29:21.080 --> 1:29:26.320 called Todd Rungrens, Johnson and Uh and did nothing but 1:29:26.439 --> 1:29:29.560 Robert Johnson songs on it in the sort of sixties 1:29:29.800 --> 1:29:34.800 white English band style, you know, where you wouldn't recognize 1:29:34.800 --> 1:29:37.720 it as a Robert Johnson song, you know, because it's 1:29:37.720 --> 1:29:39.559 really just there to play guitar solos on. 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:43.360 That's that's when he first came on the show, played 1:29:43.360 --> 1:29:46.160 with the roots for that to promote that record, Johnson 1:29:46.760 --> 1:29:47.360 the Johnson. 1:29:47.479 --> 1:29:51.360 Yeah, like literally I got to ask about a cappella 1:29:51.640 --> 1:29:57.600 because that's your thing, is your I mean, there's a 1:29:57.600 --> 1:30:01.120 bunch of creative zenas, but of of a career of 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:06.240 creative zeneans, you leave the label, you make this album 1:30:06.400 --> 1:30:11.280 in eighty five, and you're basically using the tools that 1:30:11.400 --> 1:30:12.240 rappers will use. 1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:14.439 I mean, were you one of the first people to 1:30:14.520 --> 1:30:16.400 use an. 1:30:16.280 --> 1:30:18.919 EMU emulator Yeah. 1:30:18.760 --> 1:30:21.920 Yeah, yeah, later and an EMU uh synthesizer and all 1:30:21.960 --> 1:30:22.439 these things. 1:30:23.080 --> 1:30:25.720 First of all, going into the eighties, what was your 1:30:25.720 --> 1:30:28.880 thought process. Did you feel as though, like, Wow, the 1:30:28.920 --> 1:30:33.719 world's my oyster now or were you worried. 1:30:33.200 --> 1:30:37.559 Or things were still pretty good for me? Utopia was 1:30:37.640 --> 1:30:42.520 still by nineteen eighty we were still playing you know, arenas, 1:30:42.760 --> 1:30:46.679 and mostly on the strength of our shows and word 1:30:46.720 --> 1:30:49.120 of mouth, not on kind of like huge record sales. 1:30:49.160 --> 1:30:53.840 But we would do spectacular things, you know, flamethrowers and 1:30:54.000 --> 1:30:58.320 falling off the pyramids and that sort of thing. So 1:30:58.320 --> 1:31:01.960 so Utopia was still pretty successful and I was doing okay, 1:31:02.040 --> 1:31:05.760 and there were still productions to be done. So you know, 1:31:05.800 --> 1:31:08.720 it wasn't like what happened at the end of the 1:31:08.840 --> 1:31:13.000 nineties and what has happened ever since in that first 1:31:13.000 --> 1:31:16.320 of all the majors have you know, kind of fallen apart. 1:31:16.520 --> 1:31:20.559 So the kind of funding structure for records changed a 1:31:20.560 --> 1:31:24.760 lot because I was making my living principally on advances 1:31:24.800 --> 1:31:29.840 for producing other people's records and so that as yeah, 1:31:29.960 --> 1:31:33.479 that all started to like fall apart throughout the nineties 1:31:33.479 --> 1:31:37.400 and then in the two thousands, you know, everything got different. 1:31:37.439 --> 1:31:40.559 You know, everything got bifurcated. You either produce your own 1:31:40.600 --> 1:31:45.599 records in your bedroom, or you have five producers on 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:49.200 one song, like Katy Berry or something like that. You know, 1:31:49.680 --> 1:31:53.519 six songwriters and four producers, you know, because you want 1:31:53.880 --> 1:31:58.120 it to be perfect, I guess. But so you know, 1:31:58.200 --> 1:32:01.080 nowadays I do hardly any production at all. There's no 1:32:02.080 --> 1:32:07.760 demand for it. But yeah, the uh, the guitar, I 1:32:07.840 --> 1:32:14.840 miss it. So but anyway, back to back to acappella. 1:32:15.160 --> 1:32:17.360 I had these I had these concepts that I carry 1:32:17.360 --> 1:32:20.080 around sometimes, you know, every once in a while to 1:32:20.160 --> 1:32:23.040 get to one and follow up on it. And the 1:32:23.080 --> 1:32:25.840 idea of doing an a cappella record or a record 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:28.960 where all the sound sources were from the voice or 1:32:29.000 --> 1:32:32.240 the body. What's a concept that I had had for 1:32:32.280 --> 1:32:36.200 a while. It has certainly has its challenges, but there was, 1:32:36.760 --> 1:32:39.879 as you mentioned, some new tools like samplers and things, 1:32:40.240 --> 1:32:43.120 so I could do that beatbox stuff that eventually became 1:32:43.200 --> 1:32:46.760 so popular, you know, in other words, overblowing a microphone, 1:32:46.800 --> 1:32:48.639 you know, to make a snare, drum or a bass 1:32:48.720 --> 1:32:52.320 drum or something like that. I would do the noise 1:32:52.400 --> 1:32:55.639 into a sampler and then have there was no MIDI 1:32:55.760 --> 1:32:58.320 yet tying everything together, so I'd have to sort of 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:00.720 like manually play the drum part, you know, on the 1:33:00.800 --> 1:33:03.960 keys all the way through the song. And that's why 1:33:04.000 --> 1:33:06.280 the time is kind of like a little funny in 1:33:06.360 --> 1:33:09.000 some places, because I'm really just playing the keyboard. There's 1:33:09.040 --> 1:33:13.240 no sequence or anything, right. And then you know that 1:33:13.680 --> 1:33:17.519 with that sampling capability, I could do, you know, things like, 1:33:17.680 --> 1:33:19.800 you know, make an instrument out of my voice and 1:33:19.840 --> 1:33:23.479 play chords with it, something that you couldn't do before. 1:33:24.360 --> 1:33:28.320 Uh So the technology was an enabler. The technology evolved 1:33:28.360 --> 1:33:30.960 to the point that I could do more than just 1:33:31.040 --> 1:33:35.599 simply singing with myself. I could create a broader palalette 1:33:35.600 --> 1:33:37.759 of sounds and make the whole thing more interesting. 1:33:38.600 --> 1:33:39.720 Man, we got to talk about that. 1:33:39.840 --> 1:33:44.439 Out of Hell meant I totally forgot about that, right, 1:33:44.880 --> 1:33:48.000 one of the biggest selling albums, Like, ever, how did 1:33:48.040 --> 1:33:48.479 you meet? 1:33:48.520 --> 1:33:49.400 How did y'all hook up? 1:33:50.280 --> 1:33:54.000 Well, there there are two people involved in meat Loaf, 1:33:54.120 --> 1:33:57.400 or there were two people involved in that was Jim Steinman, 1:33:57.400 --> 1:34:00.840 who essentially wrote all the material and meet Loaf, who 1:34:00.920 --> 1:34:05.479 was the performer. And when they approached me, they had 1:34:05.479 --> 1:34:09.320 auditioned for like every producer in the business, and every 1:34:09.320 --> 1:34:11.880 producer in the business. I told them I don't hear 1:34:11.920 --> 1:34:16.080 it or whatever, which is you know, not that strange 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:21.160 because the songs were all really long. You know, they 1:34:21.160 --> 1:34:25.400 didn't have traditional forms. You know, Steime intended to write 1:34:25.400 --> 1:34:29.840 backwards sometimes from certain things, like he would leave big 1:34:29.880 --> 1:34:34.559 parts of the songs unfinished, but say to me, okay, 1:34:35.000 --> 1:34:37.840 I would like a giant choir to sing for the 1:34:37.840 --> 1:34:40.880 next thirty six bars, and then I'd have to come 1:34:40.960 --> 1:34:44.280 up with something for it. You know, he wouldn't write anything. 1:34:44.520 --> 1:34:46.559 I just have to come up with some thing that 1:34:46.640 --> 1:34:49.280 played off the themes that he had already done. So 1:34:49.840 --> 1:34:52.840 I go down to a rehearsal studio in New York 1:34:52.880 --> 1:34:55.280 City to see them. I knew who Meatloaf was, I 1:34:55.320 --> 1:34:59.120 didn't know who Steiman was. I'd seen Meatloaf Rocky horror 1:34:59.160 --> 1:35:04.360 Show on Broadway, so I was aware of the fact that, well, 1:35:04.360 --> 1:35:06.479 I wasn't going to be surprised about how fat he was. 1:35:06.560 --> 1:35:12.160 Put it that way, and they essentially performed for me 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:15.360 meat Loaf, Stimon on the piano and two background singers, 1:35:15.400 --> 1:35:19.439 Rory Dodd and Ellen Foley, and they performed essentially all 1:35:19.479 --> 1:35:21.840 about Out of Hell with just the four of. 1:35:21.760 --> 1:35:23.800 Them the entire album in front of you. 1:35:24.160 --> 1:35:26.320 Well, not everything on the album, but you know, like 1:35:26.439 --> 1:35:27.719 good percentage of the album. 1:35:27.760 --> 1:35:30.320 You know. He's like a moment with Kanye West. 1:35:30.120 --> 1:35:30.200 And. 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:37.639 I'm listening to this and saying, I want to do 1:35:37.680 --> 1:35:39.280 this record, and the reason why I want to do 1:35:39.360 --> 1:35:42.880 it is because it's a spoof of Bruce Springsteen. Bruce 1:35:42.920 --> 1:35:44.880 Springsteen was like the biggest thing. He was on the 1:35:44.920 --> 1:35:47.960 cover of Time magazine, the Savior of rock and roll, 1:35:48.160 --> 1:35:51.160 you know, And to me, it's just retro music. He's 1:35:51.240 --> 1:35:53.479 you know, it's music out of the fifties. He's singing 1:35:53.479 --> 1:35:56.840 about motorcycles and leather jackets and that's what it junk, 1:35:57.240 --> 1:36:00.719 you know, And that's exactly what Meatloaf is singing about, 1:36:00.800 --> 1:36:03.519 you know. So I thought, this is great. I'm going 1:36:03.600 --> 1:36:06.200 to do a spoof of Bruce Springsteen and this is 1:36:06.240 --> 1:36:08.320 going to be it. And I never told them that 1:36:08.320 --> 1:36:12.080 that's what I was thinking. So they took it. They 1:36:12.120 --> 1:36:15.840 took it totally seriously the whole time, you know, And 1:36:15.840 --> 1:36:20.320 and I was like, yes, yes, this is so Springsteen. 1:36:23.560 --> 1:36:23.840 Old. 1:36:23.920 --> 1:36:26.920 I got to stop right here. So there's actually members 1:36:26.960 --> 1:36:28.839 of the EA Street Band on that record. 1:36:29.000 --> 1:36:29.960 So were they. 1:36:30.120 --> 1:36:31.960 Yes, there are you know were they were. 1:36:31.760 --> 1:36:34.080 They in on the joker? You just called them up. 1:36:34.080 --> 1:36:36.160 Like, no, they were not in on the joke. And 1:36:36.200 --> 1:36:39.639 Stein in the whole time would claim that Bruce Springsteen 1:36:39.720 --> 1:36:42.479 had no influence on him at all, even though he 1:36:42.600 --> 1:36:47.680 wanted he wanted Max and he wanted Roy from the 1:36:47.680 --> 1:36:50.320 East Street Band to play on the record, but otherwise, 1:36:50.560 --> 1:36:54.080 no influence whatever. And so you know that's why it 1:36:54.160 --> 1:36:57.160 has all of that. You know, it's got Springsteen's drummer in, 1:36:57.240 --> 1:37:01.280 Springsteen's piano player on it, so it sounds like Springsteen. 1:37:01.920 --> 1:37:04.760 And after the record was finished, well, the first thing 1:37:04.800 --> 1:37:07.559 that happened was when I agreed to do it, he 1:37:07.600 --> 1:37:10.800 had a label obviously, because I'm not gonna go into 1:37:10.800 --> 1:37:14.120 the studio with somebody who can't pay for the studio 1:37:14.960 --> 1:37:17.639 I we're about to go into. It's like the day 1:37:17.680 --> 1:37:19.920 before we're about to go in, we've been rehearsing up 1:37:19.920 --> 1:37:22.400 in Bearsville. So because we want to do the album live, 1:37:23.160 --> 1:37:26.320 and most everything on the album is live, not the vocals, 1:37:26.360 --> 1:37:30.320 but all of the playing and meet Love comes up 1:37:30.360 --> 1:37:31.519 to me and he says, I want to get off 1:37:31.560 --> 1:37:34.439 my label. I don't think they understand me and whatever. 1:37:34.560 --> 1:37:36.439 I said, Well, I'm not your manager. I can't tell 1:37:36.439 --> 1:37:38.320 you what to do. But you know that's going to 1:37:38.400 --> 1:37:40.640 that's kind of a sticky situation. We're going into the 1:37:40.680 --> 1:37:45.120 studio tomorrow. So essentially, I go to Bearsvielle and say, well, 1:37:45.200 --> 1:37:48.080 you know, if you will underwrite the cost of making 1:37:48.120 --> 1:37:50.840 this record and put it on my tab, you'll have 1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:54.040 write a first refusal when it's done. So we finished 1:37:54.040 --> 1:37:56.720 the record and Bearsville doesn't want it, and neither does 1:37:56.760 --> 1:38:00.240 Warner Brothers, who's distributing Bearsville, and they spend the next 1:38:00.360 --> 1:38:04.040 maybe four to six months looking for somebody to release 1:38:04.080 --> 1:38:08.280 the record. Nobody wants this freaking record, and they find 1:38:08.600 --> 1:38:12.080 a guy, a guy who runs like a label all 1:38:12.120 --> 1:38:16.959 by himself. It's called Cleveland International, subsidiary of like Epic Records. 1:38:17.680 --> 1:38:20.200 His name was Steve Popovich. He had one other artist 1:38:20.600 --> 1:38:23.320 for some reason he believed in the record, and so 1:38:24.160 --> 1:38:26.759 took the record on. They put out a single, Nothing Happened, 1:38:27.160 --> 1:38:31.040 put out another single, Nothing Happened, put out third single, 1:38:31.080 --> 1:38:34.320 and finally something started to happen, and that was because 1:38:34.439 --> 1:38:38.680 MTV came out the same time. Paradise by the Dashboard 1:38:38.760 --> 1:38:42.320 Light got played like once an hour because they didn't 1:38:42.400 --> 1:38:45.920 have enough music videos to fill up, you know, all 1:38:45.960 --> 1:38:48.360 the time on MTV, So they're playing Paradise by the 1:38:48.439 --> 1:38:51.639 Dashboard Light once an hour, just like a regular DJ 1:38:51.680 --> 1:38:53.720 would do, like put on Dark Side of the Moon 1:38:53.760 --> 1:38:55.960 and go up to the roof and get high. But 1:38:57.439 --> 1:38:59.479 you know, it's like seven and a half minutes long, 1:39:01.960 --> 1:39:05.200 and he's touring relentlessly. Meet Love was just touring his 1:39:05.280 --> 1:39:10.000 ass off, and the fact that Steve Popovich just believed 1:39:10.360 --> 1:39:12.479 so much in the record, you know, and wouldn't give 1:39:12.560 --> 1:39:16.200 up on it like a typical record executive, that it 1:39:16.280 --> 1:39:19.599 finally broke, and once it broke, it you know, went 1:39:19.680 --> 1:39:23.880 nuclear out of here, like a bad at of hand. 1:39:25.640 --> 1:39:28.479 What was it? What was it like to record Phil Rizzuto? 1:39:30.479 --> 1:39:32.559 I didn't you know, I didn't know much about Phil 1:39:32.640 --> 1:39:35.200 Rizzuto except for the Money Store, But you know, I 1:39:35.280 --> 1:39:37.920 was not a baseball fan at that point and had 1:39:37.960 --> 1:39:40.200 no idea of his career accomplishments. 1:39:40.960 --> 1:39:43.280 That he's the guy who's sitting on the unpires by 1:39:43.320 --> 1:39:45.519 the dashboard light, who's doing the baseball call? 1:39:45.680 --> 1:39:49.320 Well, he would essentially be the Yankees color commentator or 1:39:49.360 --> 1:39:52.360 something like that. You know, so people who were in 1:39:52.400 --> 1:39:54.960 the New York area and listen to, you know, Yankees 1:39:55.040 --> 1:39:56.479 games would be familiar with him. 1:39:56.479 --> 1:39:57.080 But I was not. 1:39:58.080 --> 1:40:00.880 But Steinman said, oh, hey, you know, we're going to 1:40:00.920 --> 1:40:02.920 get this guy to just read this thing, and we're 1:40:02.920 --> 1:40:05.040 gonna give him five thousand dollars. And I'm like, what 1:40:06.000 --> 1:40:09.280 can't anybody read it? Could when somebody else read it, 1:40:09.360 --> 1:40:12.200 you know, for like five hundred dollars whatever. 1:40:13.400 --> 1:40:15.599 So he was from New York, Like, how did Jim Stee. 1:40:15.439 --> 1:40:17.080 Was from New York? He had no idea what this 1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:20.280 was about. You know, he just read but he read it, 1:40:20.360 --> 1:40:23.120 read it into a microphone, and took his money and left. 1:40:23.720 --> 1:40:26.320 And I think years later he found out the context 1:40:26.320 --> 1:40:28.360 of it and was very upset from what I heard. 1:40:28.479 --> 1:40:30.559 Yeah, I was gonna say, what happens when the cat 1:40:30.640 --> 1:40:31.320 was out the bag? 1:40:32.840 --> 1:40:35.880 And like, at what point did they realize, Oh, we've 1:40:35.880 --> 1:40:39.040 been had or what about I've gotten mad? 1:40:39.080 --> 1:40:41.120 Because it's also one of the it's the one of 1:40:41.160 --> 1:40:43.599 the it's the third biggest selling album of all time. 1:40:43.800 --> 1:40:47.639 So yeah, it's yeah, it's up to here, around forty 1:40:47.680 --> 1:40:51.720 million copies or something like that, and it's you know, 1:40:52.600 --> 1:40:56.639 what do they care? It worked right? If I hadn't 1:40:56.640 --> 1:40:59.719 thought that they would have no producer at all? 1:41:00.880 --> 1:41:03.240 How how long was it until they caught on that? 1:41:04.080 --> 1:41:09.680 Wait a minute, Well, I probably said it sometime, if 1:41:09.760 --> 1:41:12.439 you know, once somebody interviewed me about it, I probably 1:41:12.479 --> 1:41:12.960 mentioned it. 1:41:13.000 --> 1:41:16.559 You know, were you approached about producing that? Ada held too? 1:41:17.400 --> 1:41:18.599 I did produce bad out of hell? 1:41:18.720 --> 1:41:20.280 Oh shit, I didn't realize that. 1:41:20.760 --> 1:41:22.920 Yes we did. We made the whole recording, and then 1:41:22.960 --> 1:41:26.400 we went in to get his vocals down, and meet 1:41:26.439 --> 1:41:30.240 Love suddenly went and said, there's something wrong with my voice. 1:41:31.080 --> 1:41:34.519 I can't say. He'd been like singing too hard and 1:41:34.560 --> 1:41:36.880 taking too much cocaine or whatever or something like that 1:41:36.960 --> 1:41:40.519 and permanently screwed his voice up, which you know, lopped 1:41:40.560 --> 1:41:42.720 a couple of notes off the top of his registered 1:41:42.800 --> 1:41:45.439 and made them sound really weird. And the way that 1:41:45.520 --> 1:41:47.920 Steinman would write was, at least the way he wrote 1:41:47.960 --> 1:41:50.680 the first record was what's the highest note you can hit? 1:41:50.760 --> 1:41:54.400 Meat Love? Okay, all write everything from there down, you know, 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:56.960 In other words, hit that note. You're going to hit 1:41:57.000 --> 1:42:03.519 it a long time. I bout it, you know, and 1:42:03.560 --> 1:42:05.439 so he wrote. When he got to the second album, 1:42:05.479 --> 1:42:07.360 he did the same thing. He assumed Meet Looaf could 1:42:07.400 --> 1:42:09.280 hit all those notes, and he wrote all those notes 1:42:09.280 --> 1:42:11.280 into it, and then we get in to get Meatloaf 1:42:11.320 --> 1:42:13.960 to sing it, and he can't hit those notes. And 1:42:14.040 --> 1:42:16.760 meet Loaf is like, so he's nearly suicidal at this 1:42:16.880 --> 1:42:19.280 point and said, I can't finish this record, you know, 1:42:19.479 --> 1:42:21.280 I don't care what you do with it. And so 1:42:21.479 --> 1:42:25.719 Steinman sang the record and it became Jim Steinman's album. 1:42:25.760 --> 1:42:29.400 It was called Bad for Good and it was it's 1:42:29.400 --> 1:42:33.160 got Jim Steinman with I don't know if you know 1:42:33.200 --> 1:42:37.800 who Corbin is, but he was a comic book illustrator, 1:42:37.840 --> 1:42:40.759 airbrush artist, you know. And he did the first cover, 1:42:41.439 --> 1:42:44.120 which was, you know, the demon flying out of Hell 1:42:44.200 --> 1:42:47.679 on a motorcycle. He also did the second cover, which 1:42:47.960 --> 1:42:51.800 was Jim Steinman's head on top of what looks like 1:42:51.960 --> 1:42:57.400 Arnold Schwarzenegger's body with the semi naked girl like hanging 1:42:57.479 --> 1:42:58.360 onto his legs. 1:42:59.320 --> 1:43:00.400 He's googling. 1:43:01.840 --> 1:43:06.519 The hell yeah yeah, And that album went exactly no place, 1:43:07.000 --> 1:43:10.439 even though it was even though it was all kind 1:43:10.439 --> 1:43:12.200 of like the same stuff, you know. 1:43:12.960 --> 1:43:16.840 Wow, But I was always curious to know how you 1:43:17.080 --> 1:43:20.080 and Dame Funk got together. Dang Funk is as buddy 1:43:20.080 --> 1:43:23.280 of mine, and uh he just always had nothing but 1:43:23.320 --> 1:43:25.320 great things to say about working with you. 1:43:25.680 --> 1:43:26.720 How did y'all hook up? 1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:30.479 I can't remember how I exactly found out that he 1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:32.240 was a fan. It was when I was doing my 1:43:32.280 --> 1:43:34.920 first collab, you know, and I thought, yeah, let's get 1:43:34.920 --> 1:43:40.479 some funkiness thing, and uh so I contacted him and 1:43:40.800 --> 1:43:44.520 we just kind of, you know, struck up a relationship. 1:43:44.720 --> 1:43:47.439 And uh whenever I'm in LA I try and get 1:43:47.479 --> 1:43:49.880 out to his DJ gigs and uh. 1:43:50.439 --> 1:43:53.040 Yeah, next one of my favorite joints. I love that. 1:43:53.439 --> 1:43:55.040 Yeah, that was you know, it was a fun song. 1:43:55.120 --> 1:43:57.960 He just you know, he sent me what essentially is 1:43:58.000 --> 1:44:01.720 the chord changes and stuff like that and built a 1:44:01.800 --> 1:44:05.920 song around it. It was easy. You know, a lot 1:44:05.920 --> 1:44:08.479 of these things can be really challenging, you know, to 1:44:08.600 --> 1:44:12.000 figure out, you know, what'll work for two artists who 1:44:12.040 --> 1:44:16.960 are just coming together cold. But it it was pretty easy. 1:44:17.840 --> 1:44:20.400 I was gonna say, was that with your collapsed? Was 1:44:20.439 --> 1:44:22.639 that kind of the same thing with you and Trent? 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:24.559 Trent Resident. How did that? 1:44:24.680 --> 1:44:28.080 Well, I had actually done a remix for Trent a 1:44:28.160 --> 1:44:30.559 couple of years ago, so I had worked with Trent 1:44:30.600 --> 1:44:35.160 before that, and and so I thought, this is, you know, 1:44:35.160 --> 1:44:37.280 a big, great way to sort of balance things out, 1:44:37.320 --> 1:44:41.160 to get him to contribute to my record. And it's amazing. 1:44:41.240 --> 1:44:44.080 He you know, he and his partner Atticus Ross, they 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:47.080 do a lot of film and TV work, and so 1:44:47.280 --> 1:44:49.800 he they'll just go into the studio and catalog a 1:44:49.800 --> 1:44:52.680 bunch of ideas. So he sent me like, you know, 1:44:53.360 --> 1:44:57.519 like twenty two like musical ideas, you know, to pick one, 1:44:57.640 --> 1:44:59.559 you know, and it was that was the biggest challenge, 1:44:59.560 --> 1:45:03.280 you know, which one could I focus on? You know? 1:45:04.800 --> 1:45:07.000 I actually was sort of for a while. I was 1:45:07.040 --> 1:45:08.920 working on two of them at once, and decided I 1:45:08.920 --> 1:45:12.360 should probably just focus on on the one that we finished. 1:45:12.720 --> 1:45:17.800 And not much as is said about your work also 1:45:17.840 --> 1:45:20.680 in like music video production, like what made you even 1:45:20.680 --> 1:45:25.080 want to get involved in like forms of media outside 1:45:25.120 --> 1:45:26.080 of recording music. 1:45:26.840 --> 1:45:30.559 Well, when I was living alone in New York City 1:45:31.080 --> 1:45:34.680 in the early seventies, one of my principal forms of 1:45:34.680 --> 1:45:37.719 one of my favorite shows that I watched TV because 1:45:37.720 --> 1:45:40.400 I didn't watch a lot of TV. I would, you know, 1:45:40.479 --> 1:45:42.519 make music or I would go out. But you know 1:45:42.600 --> 1:45:44.800 that's in the old days when there was still principally 1:45:44.920 --> 1:45:48.680 just three or four TV stations, and you know, a 1:45:48.720 --> 1:45:51.160 lot of it is just too vanilla, you know. So, 1:45:52.080 --> 1:45:55.760 But there was some couple of shows on public television. 1:45:56.360 --> 1:46:00.320 One of them was called Live from the and the 1:46:00.479 --> 1:46:05.799 Egg Factory, and another one was a VT Videotape Review, 1:46:06.760 --> 1:46:10.240 and there was a movement to use video in more 1:46:10.320 --> 1:46:13.760 artistic ways at the time. It was started by a 1:46:13.800 --> 1:46:18.439 guy named Nam June Pike, Korean guy, and he would 1:46:18.479 --> 1:46:21.040 do things like hold magnets up to the TV and 1:46:21.120 --> 1:46:24.680 warp the picture and things like that, and eventually they 1:46:24.680 --> 1:46:28.439 would develop devices that would do that for shows like 1:46:28.560 --> 1:46:33.200 Electric Company in Sesame Street. But there were a lot 1:46:33.240 --> 1:46:37.120 of experimentalists and video people doing experimental video, and I 1:46:37.280 --> 1:46:39.240 was very much into that. I wanted to do that, 1:46:39.360 --> 1:46:43.360 so I started buying video synthesizers and built myself a 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:47.040 little video studio and started taking music that I liked 1:46:47.080 --> 1:46:50.639 and putting visualizations to it. And it wasn't pop songs. 1:46:50.720 --> 1:46:55.559 It was like to Meeta's songs from like to Meeta's 1:46:55.600 --> 1:47:01.960 snowflakes are dancing, you know, or you know, classical music, 1:47:02.040 --> 1:47:05.160 you know, reveil a song about a clown. I can't 1:47:05.200 --> 1:47:08.479 remember the Spanish title of it, but classical music and 1:47:08.520 --> 1:47:12.120 stuff like that, and just do weird visualizations to it. 1:47:12.760 --> 1:47:15.040 And I thought this could be you know, legitimate art 1:47:15.080 --> 1:47:19.160 form and maybe someday, you know, be a real format entertainment. 1:47:19.600 --> 1:47:22.120 And so through the years, I just kept accumulating video 1:47:22.120 --> 1:47:26.280 equipment until like I got my check first check from 1:47:26.320 --> 1:47:30.519 meat Loaf, after you know, like almost a year of 1:47:30.560 --> 1:47:34.760 them wrangling trying to get a label, finally getting a 1:47:34.800 --> 1:47:38.400 label and then negotiating you know, my participation and stuff. 1:47:39.200 --> 1:47:42.640 I remember being in the office and getting handed a 1:47:42.760 --> 1:47:45.840 check for seven hundred and thirty thousand dollars. Was the 1:47:45.840 --> 1:47:49.080 first check I got for meat Loaf for Royal Teeth. 1:47:49.479 --> 1:47:51.600 You know, this was a project that I thought was 1:47:51.640 --> 1:47:54.080 just going to be a laugh, you know, and you 1:47:54.120 --> 1:47:58.800 know maybe yeah, and when I you know, and I 1:47:58.800 --> 1:48:01.320 didn't get my advance when I had to get Bearsville 1:48:01.320 --> 1:48:03.800 to finance the record like I usually would have done, 1:48:03.840 --> 1:48:07.520 so I did the record almost for nothing, and suddenly, 1:48:07.720 --> 1:48:10.880 you know, it's the biggest paycheck I ever got. Probably 1:48:10.920 --> 1:48:13.320 the biggest paycheck I ever got since because it had 1:48:13.360 --> 1:48:17.719 accumulated so much royalties without being disbursed. So I took 1:48:17.760 --> 1:48:20.439 that check and I bought video equipment with it and 1:48:20.479 --> 1:48:24.519 built a real video studio, and we started doing what 1:48:24.800 --> 1:48:29.280 it would be more recognizable as music videos, you know, 1:48:29.800 --> 1:48:31.559 videos to pop songs and stuff. 1:48:32.520 --> 1:48:36.080 There's one thing I forgot to ask, and we're going 1:48:36.120 --> 1:48:39.160 to wrack this up, but could you please explain how 1:48:39.200 --> 1:48:43.360 you got involved in producing the New York Dolls debut album. 1:48:44.360 --> 1:48:49.800 It was an interesting time in New York. New York 1:48:50.720 --> 1:48:52.759 was never known to have a sound. New York City 1:48:52.880 --> 1:48:55.320 didn't have a sound. There was the Long Island sound, 1:48:55.640 --> 1:48:59.320 which was very R and B influenced, but New York 1:48:59.360 --> 1:49:03.600 City wasn't to have a sound. And suddenly all of 1:49:03.640 --> 1:49:08.519 these bands started forming, mostly of people who didn't know 1:49:08.560 --> 1:49:10.800 how to play that well. So it was kind of 1:49:10.840 --> 1:49:16.599 almost like a Warhol Andy Warhol inspired, you know, gorilla 1:49:16.760 --> 1:49:20.479 art movement, and a lot of it was some of 1:49:20.520 --> 1:49:22.320 it was good and tergening, a lot of it was 1:49:22.360 --> 1:49:26.800 just crap, you know. But I was about to leave 1:49:26.880 --> 1:49:32.000 New York City and move upstate permanently. I still kept 1:49:32.000 --> 1:49:33.760 a place in the city. But I knew that I 1:49:33.840 --> 1:49:37.439 was leaving, and I thought, before I leave, maybe I'll 1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:40.600 pick one of these bands from this new scene and 1:49:40.880 --> 1:49:43.599 produce a record for them, you know, produce the New 1:49:43.680 --> 1:49:49.080 York sound, and the band that seemed to have the 1:49:49.120 --> 1:49:53.160 biggest following and have it the most together, I guess, 1:49:54.000 --> 1:49:58.240 in a euphemistic way of speaking, was the New York Dolls. 1:49:58.320 --> 1:50:01.960 So it was pretty easy for me to just approach 1:50:02.000 --> 1:50:04.519 them and say, you want me to make a record 1:50:04.560 --> 1:50:07.519 with you. And they had by then gotten a record 1:50:07.600 --> 1:50:12.080 deal with Mercury, and I was probably as hot as 1:50:12.120 --> 1:50:14.439 I've ever been as a producer, so they figured, yeah, 1:50:14.960 --> 1:50:18.760 you guys better do this. It was like managing a carnival, 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:23.879 you know. The band had so many, so many hanger ons, 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:28.200 and you know, groupies and press guys. The press loved 1:50:28.200 --> 1:50:31.080 the band because they played a level of music that 1:50:31.640 --> 1:50:36.920 rock writers could imagine playing themselves, you know, because it required. 1:50:37.560 --> 1:50:39.840 Yeah that's a quote for you, ass man. 1:50:40.280 --> 1:50:45.080 Yeah, because it was so unchallenged. They could understand it 1:50:45.160 --> 1:50:48.799 really well. So you know that. Then rock critics started 1:50:48.800 --> 1:50:53.679 forming their own bands after that. But yeah, we somehow 1:50:53.720 --> 1:50:57.759 managed to get through the record without anybody dying because 1:50:58.360 --> 1:51:02.120 soon after we finished the record, they started dying. And yeah, 1:51:02.120 --> 1:51:05.640 it didn't really do anything when they released it. I 1:51:05.640 --> 1:51:08.559 don't think there was any precedent for, you know, how 1:51:08.600 --> 1:51:12.759 to sell this kind of sloppy and what was mostly 1:51:12.960 --> 1:51:18.040 Rolling Stones inspired early Rolling Stones inspired. Most people say, oh, 1:51:18.280 --> 1:51:21.360 they're a punk rock band, but they were really emulating 1:51:21.680 --> 1:51:25.439 The Stones during their drag period, you know, Mother's Little 1:51:25.479 --> 1:51:27.760 Helper and that sort of thing. That's why they all 1:51:27.840 --> 1:51:31.040 dressed up and kind of like semi drag. The lead singer, 1:51:31.240 --> 1:51:34.760 David thought he was Yeah, David Johansson kind of thought 1:51:34.760 --> 1:51:37.519 he was Mick Jagger, you know, even though he sounded 1:51:37.560 --> 1:51:39.040 like an angry Louis Prima. 1:51:40.280 --> 1:51:43.280 One of the weirdest moments in my career was we 1:51:43.479 --> 1:51:48.479 opened for Reunited New York Dolls at like a one 1:51:48.520 --> 1:51:49.639 of those music festivals. 1:51:50.800 --> 1:51:51.600 Wow. 1:51:52.000 --> 1:51:57.920 Here's the thing though, when I saw David backstage, I 1:51:57.960 --> 1:52:02.160 was like, oh shit, it's Buster Point Dexter exactly. I 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:07.040 had no clue, had no clue that Buster Point Dexter 1:52:07.479 --> 1:52:11.960 was in the New York Dolls. And then they opened 1:52:12.040 --> 1:52:15.479 up the show with you know, like I'm one of 1:52:15.520 --> 1:52:17.920 the biggest kids in the hall, fans of All Time. 1:52:18.600 --> 1:52:20.720 So they opened up with that. So I was like, wait, 1:52:20.880 --> 1:52:24.439 like my whole mind was I had no clue. 1:52:26.280 --> 1:52:28.479 You just enlightened, dummy, that the New York Dolls sang 1:52:28.520 --> 1:52:30.280 the same song for Kids in the Hall that you 1:52:30.360 --> 1:52:30.920 just enlightened. 1:52:31.240 --> 1:52:34.400 Okay, thank you, Yes, exactly. Wow, I just learned that myself. 1:52:34.439 --> 1:52:34.880 I didn't know. 1:52:35.400 --> 1:52:37.000 Yeah, the theme the Kids in the Hall is New 1:52:37.080 --> 1:52:39.040 York Dolls. But you know the thing is that I 1:52:39.640 --> 1:52:43.080 mostly knew of New York Dolls via all the critical 1:52:43.120 --> 1:52:47.360 claim they were getting. You know, Robert Christa, Gals, you know, 1:52:47.479 --> 1:52:50.320 year enlisted all that stuff and Rolling Stones five hundred 1:52:50.400 --> 1:52:52.880 of all Time, you know, And I know that people 1:52:52.960 --> 1:52:57.000 cite them for like at least uh them as a 1:52:57.040 --> 1:53:01.160 group and how groundbreaking they were. I just never heard 1:53:01.200 --> 1:53:03.680 them or anything or just knew the members or any 1:53:03.680 --> 1:53:04.240 of that stuff. 1:53:04.280 --> 1:53:07.360 And so well, essentially they were the they were the 1:53:07.400 --> 1:53:11.400 inspiration for the sex Pistols, and that's why people referred 1:53:11.400 --> 1:53:13.880 to them as a punk band, even though nobody used 1:53:13.920 --> 1:53:16.760 that term in the era. When you know, when we 1:53:16.840 --> 1:53:19.640 did the The New York Dolls record, it was, you know, 1:53:19.680 --> 1:53:21.759 if it was anything, it was the New York sound. 1:53:22.479 --> 1:53:28.080 But when John Lydon heard the record, the accessibility of it, 1:53:28.120 --> 1:53:31.559 I guess inspired him and the nasty attitude and everything 1:53:31.600 --> 1:53:34.840 about it, and it was you know, it was the 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:38.920 inspiration for the Sex Pistols essentially, and that's how they 1:53:38.960 --> 1:53:41.519 got rolled into the whole punk rock thing kind of 1:53:41.560 --> 1:53:44.719 by backwards inclusion into those. 1:53:44.560 --> 1:53:46.760 Malcolm McLaurin ever reached out to you to ask you 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:47.680 for tips. 1:53:47.439 --> 1:53:51.920 Or I don't know that. I I may have run 1:53:51.960 --> 1:53:54.720 into him in London at one point in like the 1:53:55.520 --> 1:53:59.400 in the earlier mid seventies, but I not really had 1:53:59.479 --> 1:54:03.439 much content tech with him. Uh, you know, his his 1:54:03.560 --> 1:54:07.400 attitude about this is kind of you know, it is 1:54:07.439 --> 1:54:09.800 that punk rock thing. You know, it's like, let's do 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:13.160 some care'll that'll just get people all wound up, you 1:54:13.200 --> 1:54:16.400 know the thing. And you know, as a record producer, 1:54:16.439 --> 1:54:18.160 I had longer goals than that. 1:54:19.040 --> 1:54:23.080 Okay, I see, So of all of all your outside productions, 1:54:23.360 --> 1:54:26.320 not including your records or Utopia's records, but records that 1:54:26.360 --> 1:54:30.440 you produced, like some We've mentioned some We have an XTC, Badfinger, 1:54:30.560 --> 1:54:36.000 Holland Oates, Jule Shecher, Patti Smith, just to name a few. 1:54:36.240 --> 1:54:39.800 Which of which of the outside production projects do you 1:54:39.840 --> 1:54:42.400 think was the most rewarding in the sense that you 1:54:42.520 --> 1:54:46.200 learn the most on that project, whether it was technicals, 1:54:46.200 --> 1:54:48.280 something you learned technically, or something about how to be 1:54:48.320 --> 1:54:50.160 a great producer or an effective producer. 1:54:51.040 --> 1:54:55.440 Well, I, you know, I tend to cite skylarking as 1:54:56.360 --> 1:54:59.040 as something. You know, I'm not a person that feels 1:54:59.480 --> 1:55:03.360 like a lot of pride, because that's you know, there's 1:55:03.400 --> 1:55:05.200 not much to be gained out of it. You know, 1:55:05.400 --> 1:55:10.080 I try and be sanguine about the things in the 1:55:10.120 --> 1:55:12.640 past and concentrate on the future, and so I don't 1:55:12.720 --> 1:55:16.800 think of things with pride except for my kids. It 1:55:16.960 --> 1:55:22.120 was an incredible slog to finish the record because I 1:55:22.160 --> 1:55:26.480 was getting so much resistance from certain band members. But 1:55:27.440 --> 1:55:31.600 I also can say that, you know, they never appreciated 1:55:31.680 --> 1:55:36.320 what was going on because Andy went home and before 1:55:36.360 --> 1:55:38.920 I'd even delivered the record, he was telling people in 1:55:38.960 --> 1:55:41.040 the press, who was the worst record they ever made? 1:55:41.760 --> 1:55:47.720 Because he was imprinting his feelings about the experience, and 1:55:47.760 --> 1:55:50.360 the reason why the experience was not pleasant for him 1:55:50.680 --> 1:55:55.240 was because I took it over. You know, I was 1:55:55.280 --> 1:55:57.120 a fan of the band. I was a big fan, 1:55:57.280 --> 1:55:59.240 and so I knew about their records. I knew about 1:55:59.240 --> 1:56:02.280 the evolution their records, and I knew about what was 1:56:02.320 --> 1:56:07.400 happening in terms of the making of the records. And 1:56:07.440 --> 1:56:10.120 when the label approached me, you know that they had 1:56:10.120 --> 1:56:12.200 no the band was lost, and the label said, you 1:56:12.240 --> 1:56:15.000 have to have a real producer. Now, you know, we 1:56:15.080 --> 1:56:18.240 can't let Andy take over this project and turn it 1:56:18.280 --> 1:56:21.960 into an Andy Vanity project again because the records aren't 1:56:22.000 --> 1:56:29.080 selling like they used to. And so I guess the 1:56:29.240 --> 1:56:31.240 one of the A and our guys said, you know, no, 1:56:31.400 --> 1:56:33.640 go with to run and he's notorious for taking control 1:56:33.680 --> 1:56:38.200 of these things, you know, and so so they acquiesced, 1:56:38.280 --> 1:56:41.720 you know, to that, and they came to record up 1:56:41.760 --> 1:56:45.160 in Lake Hill where I was in my studio, as 1:56:45.200 --> 1:56:48.040 they had never recorded outside of a British studio before, 1:56:48.880 --> 1:56:52.480 and we did, you know, like the basics in UH 1:56:52.720 --> 1:56:55.680 up in Lake Hill, and then we went to San Francisco, 1:56:55.960 --> 1:56:59.240 UH laid on drums and other instruments and things like that, 1:56:59.320 --> 1:57:03.040 then finished up the vocals back in in lake Hill. 1:57:03.840 --> 1:57:06.160 During the course of the record, the bass player quit 1:57:06.240 --> 1:57:10.800 the band UH and Andy threatened to cleave my head 1:57:10.920 --> 1:57:12.160 into with an axe. 1:57:12.880 --> 1:57:13.320 UH. 1:57:13.680 --> 1:57:19.360 But so after after old experience, right, Yeah, that's experience. 1:57:19.480 --> 1:57:22.640 But the reason why I look at it, as you know, 1:57:22.880 --> 1:57:26.880 as being maybe more rewarding than other records is that 1:57:26.920 --> 1:57:31.520 record saved their career, that they got a hit record 1:57:31.560 --> 1:57:34.560 off of it, and they continue to record, you know, 1:57:34.640 --> 1:57:37.480 album after album with no hit records after that because. 1:57:37.240 --> 1:57:38.160 The acknowledged that. 1:57:38.240 --> 1:57:41.160 Now they ultimately acknowledged it. 1:57:41.240 --> 1:57:46.320 Yes, I want to let you in on something that 1:57:46.480 --> 1:57:48.760 that record also saved someone else's career. 1:57:50.120 --> 1:57:51.240 H Whose is that? 1:57:52.120 --> 1:57:52.560 All right? 1:57:53.240 --> 1:57:56.080 This is the this is the weirdest is the weirdest 1:57:56.080 --> 1:58:04.240 twist to this story right here? Skylarking, Sonic Sunspot and 1:58:04.600 --> 1:58:05.760 Oranges and Lemons. 1:58:06.120 --> 1:58:07.080 Oranges and Lemons. 1:58:07.120 --> 1:58:09.200 Yeah, the three albums. 1:58:09.560 --> 1:58:13.480 Now, you know, we at the Roots had a hustle 1:58:13.520 --> 1:58:17.800 because we were on Geffen Records as well, and we 1:58:17.800 --> 1:58:23.240 were absolutely starving between nineteen ninety three and nineteen ninety six, 1:58:24.320 --> 1:58:30.240 and an instant hustle would be to go visit Geffen 1:58:30.360 --> 1:58:36.200 Records on a Thursday. Somehow created diversion or you know, 1:58:36.240 --> 1:58:38.800 you would ask the receptionist to go, like, oh, can 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:43.320 we get orange juice, apple juice or water? And in 1:58:43.360 --> 1:58:46.000 those twenty seconds that she walks away from her desk 1:58:46.480 --> 1:58:47.120 to go to. 1:58:48.600 --> 1:58:52.440 The kitchen. Three roots would then ran sat the. 1:58:52.440 --> 1:58:55.800 Entire record library. 1:58:55.920 --> 1:58:56.520 Yeah, there was a. 1:58:56.480 --> 1:58:59.880 CD closet right behind her, of which we learned early 1:59:00.280 --> 1:59:05.400 that the only product that used record stores were interested 1:59:05.480 --> 1:59:10.720 in buying these records from from us was the Ecstasy records. 1:59:11.240 --> 1:59:12.560 You know, at first we were like, all right, all 1:59:12.560 --> 1:59:15.280 these guns and Roses records, all these Nirvana records or whatever, 1:59:15.760 --> 1:59:19.320 and we couldn't give them away. But somehow every cool 1:59:19.600 --> 1:59:25.000 used record store in the village only took the Ecstasy records. 1:59:25.080 --> 1:59:28.480 So it just it came weekly said like, to make. 1:59:28.360 --> 1:59:33.280 It, yeah, no, but to make a quick two hundred bucks, 1:59:33.320 --> 1:59:38.040 you take all the skylarkings, all the suns on spots, 1:59:38.080 --> 1:59:41.440 and all the oranges and lemons and just go to every. 1:59:41.200 --> 1:59:44.480 Records store in the stratosphere too, right. 1:59:45.360 --> 1:59:48.480 Yes, and then that's how I'd have money for the week. 1:59:48.720 --> 1:59:51.800 So thank you. Hi. 1:59:51.920 --> 1:59:53.480 Can I ask before because I know we're about to 1:59:53.480 --> 1:59:55.720 wrap up, but can you please tell us about what 1:59:56.080 --> 1:59:57.440 a virtual talk show is? 1:59:57.600 --> 2:00:00.200 And Todd's honest truth, like, what is a what are 2:00:00.200 --> 2:00:01.520 you doing over here in Hawaii? 2:00:02.360 --> 2:00:04.480 There's been a lot of talk you know, people doing 2:00:04.560 --> 2:00:07.640 you know, virtual things of virtual tours and stuff like that, 2:00:07.760 --> 2:00:09.760 and I would have I would be on a virtual 2:00:09.800 --> 2:00:13.240 tour now if if our promoters had led me, I 2:00:13.360 --> 2:00:17.400 was totally prepared to. You know, my tour was supposed 2:00:17.400 --> 2:00:20.240 to start May first and run to the middle of 2:00:20.280 --> 2:00:23.920 this month. Fact, it would be virtual store. Yeah. In 2:00:23.960 --> 2:00:26.680 other words, we would rehearse the band and do the 2:00:26.720 --> 2:00:29.720 show production and everything like we would normally do, but 2:00:29.760 --> 2:00:34.080 then find a venue in San Francisco where we'd be 2:00:34.120 --> 2:00:38.640 rehearsing and do a live broadcast to every city on 2:00:38.680 --> 2:00:41.320 the night that we would have been there. So, in 2:00:41.360 --> 2:00:43.920 other words, I would have done twenty eight shows, but 2:00:44.080 --> 2:00:47.600 all from the same venue, going to you know, narrow 2:00:47.680 --> 2:00:49.920 cast to all the people who had bought tickets to 2:00:49.960 --> 2:00:50.280 the show. 2:00:50.440 --> 2:00:52.240 Well, each show still be different too. 2:00:52.960 --> 2:00:54.880 Well, it would be different because it'd be a different show, 2:00:54.920 --> 2:00:57.320 you know, I mean the show is the same show 2:00:57.800 --> 2:01:01.800 in that well, they are different because on alternating nights 2:01:01.800 --> 2:01:04.160 we would do either Side Ay or Side be Able 2:01:04.160 --> 2:01:06.560 Wizard a True Star as well as the rest of 2:01:06.720 --> 2:01:10.200 the show. You know, I've been wondering what else I 2:01:10.200 --> 2:01:14.000 can do besides podcasts and things like that, and our 2:01:14.080 --> 2:01:16.680 merch company has since they can't go out on the 2:01:16.720 --> 2:01:19.680 road and sell merch. Anymore, set up this whole sort 2:01:19.760 --> 2:01:24.600 of video broadcasting paradigm thing, pay per view thing, so 2:01:24.680 --> 2:01:31.520 that fans can participate in live events, video events with 2:01:31.760 --> 2:01:35.440 various people. I think Melissa Etherrich has done one. Most 2:01:35.440 --> 2:01:38.040 of the other ones I don't recognize the names. There's 2:01:38.080 --> 2:01:41.560 a Fab four thing, not the Fab Foe, of course, 2:01:42.200 --> 2:01:44.800 but a Fab four Beatle tribute thing. And they said, 2:01:44.840 --> 2:01:48.320 those things sell like people are really, you know, tired 2:01:48.320 --> 2:01:51.600 of being at home, so they want some kind of entertainment. 2:01:51.760 --> 2:01:54.840 So I had an idea for something where I would 2:01:54.880 --> 2:01:57.480 just spiel, you know, I would just get in front 2:01:57.480 --> 2:02:01.320 of a camera and start talking about something really commonplace 2:02:01.480 --> 2:02:08.560 but easily misunderstood, like money or something like that. But 2:02:09.280 --> 2:02:13.240 money is liquefied labor. That's the that's the bottom line. 2:02:13.960 --> 2:02:17.920 But in any case, we pitched that idea and they said, okay, well, 2:02:18.040 --> 2:02:20.120 let's do something a little bit more than that. So 2:02:20.520 --> 2:02:23.920 the show is going to be me hosting live but 2:02:24.000 --> 2:02:25.839 most of the show will be things that I recorded 2:02:25.880 --> 2:02:27.800 already so that they can be so that I can 2:02:27.800 --> 2:02:31.040 make sure that they're like high quality, because a lot 2:02:31.080 --> 2:02:34.120 of the live events, you know, they're you know, they 2:02:34.200 --> 2:02:37.720 lack scripting. They just they don't have energy to them, 2:02:37.920 --> 2:02:41.600 you know, because you're not getting immediate feedback from the 2:02:41.640 --> 2:02:44.840 audience like you usually do. So it's, you know, a 2:02:44.880 --> 2:02:49.960 fine line whether it's actually qualifies as entertainment. And so 2:02:50.080 --> 2:02:52.120 I want to you know, hedge my bets and do 2:02:52.320 --> 2:02:54.840 a lot of different sort of video productions that I 2:02:54.880 --> 2:02:57.720 will then host and do Q and as in between 2:02:58.520 --> 2:03:02.360 and not you know, him to play an hour's worth 2:03:02.360 --> 2:03:06.320 of acoustic material from my couch. You know it's too 2:03:06.400 --> 2:03:06.880 much of that. 2:03:08.640 --> 2:03:14.080 Yeah, I'm taking notes. I am taking notes. Okay, Todd, 2:03:14.160 --> 2:03:18.840 We thank you nice. We did it today. 2:03:21.960 --> 2:03:23.600 We thank you so much for. 2:03:24.040 --> 2:03:25.480 It was a major motion picture. 2:03:27.440 --> 2:03:29.320 No, we thank you for seeing your story with us. 2:03:29.320 --> 2:03:31.880 And you know we're we're all massive fans and you know. 2:03:32.280 --> 2:03:35.080 We've been I kind of miss you, guys. I would 2:03:35.080 --> 2:03:38.600 have been in New York and well weeks ago for 2:03:39.560 --> 2:03:41.840 right for all for for about a week, so you 2:03:41.880 --> 2:03:43.480 know it could have stopped. 2:03:43.120 --> 2:03:46.760 By and well this will this mess will be over 2:03:47.640 --> 2:03:55.440 for you will, all right. 2:03:55.960 --> 2:03:57.840 We thank you for sharing your story with us and 2:03:57.840 --> 2:04:01.640 we appreciate it. On behalf of Layah and Sugar Steve 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:10.720 and font Ticolo and the Great Todd run Grin, Relax, Relax, 2:04:11.280 --> 2:04:14.480 A lot of question anyway, YO, this Quest Love and 2:04:14.520 --> 2:04:15.720 we thank you guys, and we'll see you in the 2:04:15.760 --> 2:04:17.720 next go round of Quest Love Supreme. 2:04:17.800 --> 2:04:20.480 Thank you, m. 2:04:28.280 --> 2:04:28.320 M. 2:04:30.800 --> 2:04:33.640 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 2:04:36.480 --> 2:04:39.760 For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 2:04:40.000 --> 2:04:43.040 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.