1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: from my Heart radio. In February, none other than Bill 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: Crystal tweeted, we are all Democrats now. From one of 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: the nation's leading conservatives, it was yet another sign of 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: the chasm between moderate Republicans and Trump loyalists. Crystel earned 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: his political stripes serving in the Reagan and George H. W. 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: Bush administrations, then as founder and editor of The Weekly 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,919 Speaker 1: Standard for more than two decades, he argued for hawkish 9 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: foreign policy, lower taxes, and against universal health care. After 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: the January sixth insurrection, Crystal says our democracy is facing 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: an internal crisis. It's all enough to make him regret 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton's two thousand sixteen loss. We would be much 13 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: better off. Just reckless disregard science and denial of truth 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: and demagoguery of Trump that's unmatched, in my view, really 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: by by a major party nominee of either of either 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: party in modern times, and bad enough that he got 17 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: the domination. I thought that would do real damage to 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: the country. But then winning the election, in which obviously 19 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: that damage is by no means over or even beginning 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: to be over. I think the degree to which having 21 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: a really reckless demagogue, nativist, authoritarian demagogue as president for 22 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: four years, that takes a while to recover from. You know, 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,479 Speaker 1: New York is always new Trump. Yes, Trump was a vacuous, 24 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: I mean vapid nonentity in New York and people wouldn't 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: do business with him. Well, I mean, I think in 26 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: New York society, which I don't put myself in New 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: York society. I'm not an astor, if you will, but 28 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: but in my life of tickets and tables and going 29 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: to charitable events for the last thirty thirty five years, 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: Trump was always a drive by presidents. You know, he 31 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: had the tuxedo in the glove compartment, He jumped out 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 1: of the limo, snap snap on the red carpet on. 33 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: Never a tablemate, never a conversation to be had. But 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: let me switch back. Your father was obviously this figure 35 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: that looms large and the neo conservative movement. What was 36 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,400 Speaker 1: your home life like? What was the intellectual were you 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: like the conservative Kennedy's at the dinner table you had 38 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: to beat Foreign Affairs Magazine before you sat down for 39 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: your salad course. No, I think my parents of anything bent, 40 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: were a little bit backwards to you know, let me 41 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: go play baseball or football or basketball and Riverside Park 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: and and we were all big sports fans, including my father, 43 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: and so many of my memories, like everyone else's memories, 44 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: I suppose of being ten, twelve, fourteen years old is 45 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: watching TV with my father and my mother, not so 46 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: much in sports, but watching, uh, the Jets and the 47 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: Mets that I was. I was a big New York 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: sports fan. And it was the sixties. You were Jets, Mats, 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: not Giants Yankees. Yes, my junior senior in high school 50 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: featured the Jets winning the huge upset in the Super 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: bowlth three, sixty met swinning the World Series and sixty 52 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: nine and the nixt winning in nineteen seventy with Little 53 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: Street hobbling onto the court. So that was where I 54 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: always felt like. I never was quite as much of 55 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: a sports fan after that, because how can you do 56 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: better than root for these teams, which, as you say, 57 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: we're pretty hopeless in the beginning of the decade when 58 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: I started to do do it for them, and one by 59 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: the end of the decade. But when they won these titles, 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: it was a shock to New York. Yeah, people forget 61 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: that it's like, well, of course, you know Joe Namoth 62 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: Willow Street, but it was it was in the Mets 63 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: were of course a total shock. So so that was 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: an exciting I had a good youth in that respect, 65 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: in terms of sports, and and honestly we watched a 66 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: lot of mysteries on TV and stuff, so we were 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: we were pretty um, I mean, my parents were intellectuals, 68 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: and I grew up surrounded by more books, I suppose 69 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: than an average kid, and then therefore did pick up 70 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that obviously. But actually, and also in 71 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: the sixties, this is sort of before neo conservatives, and 72 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: so they were kind of old fashioned liberals. They supported 73 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: Hubert hung Free from president and sixty eight and what changed, well, 74 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: they would say, and they would have said, and I 75 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: would agree with this, that the left, the old fashioned 76 00:03:57,080 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: lived list and got overtaken by the new left, and 77 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: they didn't like that. Around what time, late sixties, I 78 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: would say, I mean, in New York the teacher strike 79 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: was a big deal. But the failure of John Lindsay 80 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: as mayor, the sense that domestic policy things were falling apart, 81 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: crime was increasing, the city wasn't being well governed. Some 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: of these big government programs weren't working too well. And 83 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: then in foreign policy that kind of George willgoverned victory 84 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: and the Democratic Party a very decent man, but a 85 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: very devilsh view of America's well in the world. So 86 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: they moved to the right, and uh, methought they were 87 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: always kind of heterodoxy liberals, I would say, sort of 88 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: contrarian and didn't just take liberal pieties for granted. But 89 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: uh yeah, in the seventies they certainly that's when do 90 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: conservatives came into existence. It was originally a term of 91 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: opprobrium used by a Democratic socialist, Michael Harrington, who attacked 92 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: my thought. He thought it would sort of be the 93 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: It would discredit all these liberals who were retaking liberalism, 94 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: to call them by the dread word. This is so 95 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: long ago conservative, ordo conservative. But he couldn't quite say conservative, 96 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: as they obviously weren't conservatives from youth. So they were 97 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: neo conservatives. And remember my father wrote My father wrote 98 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: a piece I think in nine seventy four saying, Okay, look, 99 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: I guess if they want to call me indio conservative, 100 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: I'll accept the term. A lot of his friends resisted 101 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: it throughout the seventies say no, we're the true liberals. 102 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: But you know how politics is, you sort of end 103 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: up with the term. They stick on you when you 104 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: talk about McGovern, devish and so forth. And I come 105 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: from a different place where I believe that, you know, 106 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: Vietnam is the stain we're never going to be able 107 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: to wash away. That's when the country really took the 108 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: turn down, and we've never recovered from that, and and 109 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: I'm curious as to whether we ever will because we 110 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: knew it was wrong way back when we knew Ran 111 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: Corporation Elsberg all that we knew it was wrong, and 112 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: when we pressed on. But the point is that how 113 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: much longer do you think the United States can afford? 114 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: And you can correct me if you think this is 115 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: that this is not an apt description to be this 116 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: world policeman going around the world and telling everybody else 117 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: what to do all the time in order to benefit 118 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: ourselves economically. How much longer can we afford to do 119 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: that financially? Well, I think we can afford to do it, 120 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: or in the sense I think the price we would 121 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: pay for not doing some of it is even greater. 122 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: I mean, Vietnam was obviously in retrospect, I mean a mistake. 123 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: I think we stumbled into it with decent intentions Kennedy 124 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: and to some degree Johnson, people like McNamara, who was, 125 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: you know, a person who wanted to do the right thing. 126 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: And then we got out in a way that was 127 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: was understandable why we got out the way we did. 128 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: And then of course Vietnam fell on seventy five and Cambodia, 129 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: it was pretty disastrous. On the other hand, Reagan came 130 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: back at eight and we won the Cold War, and 131 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: it felt it really what I was that firing a shot. 132 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: And in the nineties, you know, we managed to help 133 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: construct a Europe that was kind of whole and free. 134 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: We defeated Milosovich. So I would still defend the kind 135 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: of US, uh, the model of US internationalism and to 136 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: some degree of interventionism that held through most of those years. 137 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: And I think we had a world that wasn't getting 138 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: better and in pretty good shape for all the mistakes 139 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: that various administrations have made. But you believe that there 140 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,679 Speaker 1: are things that we need to do in this guy. 141 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: When I look at America now, I see, you know, 142 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: not just the floorboards creaking and the paint peeling. I mean, 143 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: I see that this country is desperate for forget about 144 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: the COVID and and and and as Howard Dean said 145 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: on this program, will be interviewed him. I said, will 146 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: we be in trouble financially if we keep printing money 147 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: to address the COVID economy? Said, We're gonna be in 148 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: trouble if we don't. We have to print this money 149 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: to keep this economy going, or we'll be in real 150 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: trouble if we don't. But my point is that you 151 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: turn around and education, healthcare, infrastructure, what's going on in Texas. 152 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: Everywhere you turn around, the country is fraying in terms 153 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: of some kind of infrastructure. How much longer can we 154 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: go on giving the Pentagon a blank check to do 155 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: whatever they want to do, to buy all this crap 156 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: bombs and planes and submarines, everything that we may or 157 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: may not need, when there's so many other things we 158 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: need to take care of this country right now. And 159 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: the Pentagon is what about seven fifty billion dollars a year, 160 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: so it's about three and a half four percent of 161 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: g d P honestly, and we're about to spend one 162 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: point trillion dollars on the COVID relief bill, which I 163 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: think is fine, but it just shows how much it 164 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: dwarfs whatever saving is you're going to get for the 165 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: Pentagon with fifty billion a hundred billions. So I really 166 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: don't think it's fundamental. And I would say the COVID 167 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: Covidge reminds us the world is inter connected. It matters 168 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: to us how the w h O is governed, it 169 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: matters to us how China is governed. And so the 170 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: notion that we can just sort of not worry so 171 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: much about the world, I don't think it's correct. And 172 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: then I think the liberal answer what I just said 173 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: would be, well, we can worry about the world, but 174 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: we don't need all the military side of it. But 175 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: I think the military side backs up the diplomatic side. 176 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: So I guess I'm I'm with the sort of Clinton 177 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: type Democrats on this now. And I think the Biden 178 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: administration and having reasonable defense preparedness and defense spending and 179 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: forward deployment to keep things stable and safe around the world. 180 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: And I think and also free trade and some of 181 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: these things that are out of fashion. Look at the 182 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: vaccine development, which is really a tribute I would say 183 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: to the kind of integrated flow capital and and also 184 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: of immigration accent only uh to America who they're They're 185 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: responsible for so many these scientific and medical breakthroughs out 186 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: of also just the medical care we're getting. So I'd 187 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: say I'm I'm a pretty unembarrassed globalist, and I think 188 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: part of that is having a reasonable military, you know, 189 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:26,839 Speaker 1: capability neo conservative Bill Crystal. If you enjoy hearing from 190 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: independent minded conservatives, check out my two thousand and twelve 191 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: conversation with Pulitzer Prize winning columnist George Will. Today, we 192 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: have this cornucopia of news sources. People define journalism on 193 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: their own terms, get it on their own time. I 194 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: was told by an activist in South Carolina during the 195 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: primary this year that a survey showed that sevent of 196 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: all Republican primary voters in South Carolina get all, not most, 197 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 1: all of their news from Fox News. On a Republican 198 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: candidate buys an ad on Fox News, he's not broad casting, 199 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: he's narrow casting right in the Republican voters. Here more 200 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: of my conversation with George Will and here's the thing 201 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: dot org. After the break, Bill Crystal walks us through 202 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: the recent history of the Republican Party right to the 203 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: point where Trump lost Crystal's vote. I'm Alec Baldwin, and 204 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the thing. Bill Crystal says his 205 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: initial enthusiasm for social media has faded. The changes have 206 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: been greater than I at first expected. I liked the 207 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: you know, the democratization of news to some degree. I 208 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: thought it was a healthy thing. I thought I discovered 209 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: personally a lot of people. I learned a lot from 210 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: whom I wouldn't have discovered in the old days, because 211 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have been you know, fifty two year old 212 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: people who had moved moved their way, white males who 213 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: had moved up in the pecking order. And we're now 214 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: on partly frankly right. And so the kind of flowering 215 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: of a lot of voices was in many ways a 216 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: healthy thing, and I underestimated the damage it would do. Though, 217 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: the degree to which the echo chamber character of social 218 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: media Facebook, I think in particular, though, but also other 219 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: parts of social media have allowed people to live in 220 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: their own worlds and and believe that a lot of 221 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: things that aren't true. And also the kind of rewarding 222 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: of extremism and of a sort of superficial hot takes 223 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: as opposed to, you know, more serious consideration of things. 224 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: Having said all that, you know, when I talked to 225 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: young people go college campus, you know there's still that 226 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: hunger I think for real information and thoughtful analysis of things. 227 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: So I'm not despairing about it, but it does require 228 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: fresh thinking. I mean, I think in terms of regulation 229 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: and how we structure or how what government centers we 230 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: provide and distincenters for organizations like Facebook. Um, that's something 231 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: we've just let it develop on its own. Maybe that 232 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: was necessary for a while, understandable, but it is the 233 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: wild West, and it does require, Like the wild West 234 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: eventually did some law and order, some regulations, some sheriffs, Yeah, 235 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: some rules to try to get people to Uh, should 236 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: we bring back the fairness doctrine? I don't know how 237 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,599 Speaker 1: important that would be at this point, honestly, and I 238 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: don't even know quite what it would applied to. I 239 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: guess is Fox News and news organization? Well, no, I 240 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: mean Fox News is so I was on Fox and 241 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: on the Sunday Show mostly I've been every week and 242 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: then somewhat on on the Special Report panel when when 243 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: Britt Hume was the host of special Report and then 244 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: a little bit with right there. I would say Fox 245 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: News was always conservative. It wasn't quite fair and balanced. 246 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: It was a sort of tugging cheek thing. But on 247 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: the other hand, it was very different. It's very different 248 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: have a conservative leading or even conservative oriented a news 249 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: organization with some shows with a little bit of demagoguery 250 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: frankly from Bill O'Reilly and a little bit of silliness 251 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: from Sean Hannity, but still kept in check mostly, I 252 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: would say, and balanced by other networks. And that is 253 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: very different from the true conspiracy, theorizing no holds barred, 254 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: denagar green dativism, racism. Really that you now get. I 255 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: think it's I remember when Trump did the birth of 256 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: stuff inve I just thought it was ludicrous and dismissed 257 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: it on Fox to use, and I would say most 258 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: of my fellow panelists did as well. That Fox did 259 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: give him that platform on Fox and Friends, but we 260 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: thought that was kind of the ridiculous show in any way. 261 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: People thought it was just idiocy. We underestimated how much 262 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: damage it would do. Obviously, I'm not trying to say 263 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: that it wasn't a big there'sn't a lot a lot 264 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: of people, including me, should be held responsible for being 265 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: part of that organization to the degree we were, but 266 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: I think the degree to which it spiraled out of control, 267 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: it's a big difference between having a sort of conservative 268 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: you know, pro tax cart, pro you know, conservative judges, whatever, 269 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: news organization and having one that truly deals and in 270 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: saying conspiracy theories and one that's a mouthpiece for the GOP. 271 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: And as a total matter, yeah, we criticized. I mean, 272 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: I was very I was pro the Iraq War, but 273 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: I was very critical of rumsfelt thought he should be fired. 274 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,959 Speaker 1: Was with McCain and wanting dout more troops in a 275 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: different strategy. And you know, I said that repeatedly on Fox. 276 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: It was a little bit of bristling at times. Was 277 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: they were already a little bit getting into the mode of, gee, 278 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: we don't want to antagonize the Bush administration too much 279 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: Obama to drive them a little crazy, especially in the 280 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: second term. And I I don't really understand why it's 281 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: in retrospect. In retrospect, was President Obama such a radical president? 282 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: Not really, But I feel like looking back at what 283 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: I said to I mean, I don't think I said 284 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: anything terrible racist or you know, crazy, but the intensity 285 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: even of my opposition on some of the issues, uh, 286 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: the President Obama, I can't, I gotta say, looking back, 287 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: I find it a little startling, you know. I I 288 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: still would wish to structure healthcare reform differently and so 289 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: forth that he would, but I don't quite remember. It's 290 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: hard to put yourself back there. I don't think in 291 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: my case, honestly it was race. Maybe it wasn't some people's, 292 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: but the general spiraling of the right into a kind 293 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: of insanity over the last decade is something that's going 294 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: to take a while to just disentangled. But I do 295 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: think the media incent is what you began with like 296 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: is an important part of it. The incentators were always 297 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: to get more extreme. Who is a person speaking of 298 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 1: the way that the the media has transformed over the 299 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: last many years, who's someone deceased? Who's the news for you? 300 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: You really admired from yesteryear, if you will, that you'd 301 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: love to see that kind of person come back. Yeah, No, 302 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: it's I mean you mentioned to brink Huntly Wrinkley and 303 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: I got to know David a little bit, and it's 304 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: very last iteration when he hosted the Sunday Show on 305 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: ABC that I was on a few times when he 306 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: still did it, and I think six and that kind 307 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: of worldly wisdom, a little bit of irony and a 308 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: little bit of I've seen it all. I'm not going 309 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: to get too worked up. At the time, I thought 310 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: I was young, and fairly young, and I was a 311 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: little more kind of an enthusiast one way or the other. 312 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: But I thought, in a way, that is a healthy 313 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: thing for people to see, you know, what these things coming. 314 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: Let's not think that every policy fight, every disagreement, every 315 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: confirmation of some on is the end of the world. 316 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: And I do think that kind of wisdom someone who's 317 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: seen real war, World War two, who had seen real 318 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: social transformation and the civil rights movement and real battles 319 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: against you know, deeply in trans racism and so forth, 320 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: and that kind of perspective is something that people don't 321 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: don't have much these days. I mean, I miss my 322 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: friend Charles Craudhammer, who I think would say now today 323 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: probably what I would say about myself. They probably went 324 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: a little a little too harsh and his statements on 325 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: Obama and on the Democrats in that period, Where were 326 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: you too harsh on Obama. Well, I don't even know 327 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: that I would pull back too many of my differences 328 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: with him on some topics, whether it's Obamacare, which I 329 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: was critical of, or the Iran Deal and so forth. 330 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 1: But I just think the tone was too you know, 331 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: absolutist and uh just extreme in the sense that how 332 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: much damage Obama and the Democrats were doing and how 333 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: important it was to check him. And I mean, I'm 334 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: glad that he was checked in certain ways. But two 335 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: thousand nine, for example, the Tea Party began, and I 336 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: kind of thought, well, it's this sort of it's being 337 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: unfairly attacked. These are people who just don't like spending 338 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: all this money. You want to get back to a 339 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: world fashioned kind of conservatism. I think there was some 340 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: of that, honestly. Obviously there are a lot of decent 341 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: people who just thought, to you, why we spending all 342 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: this money to bail out the banks. But in retrospect, 343 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: it was it was an unleashing of passions that just 344 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: never got constrained. I mean, I think typically in American 345 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: history you get real passions. Sometimes they're for good, obviously 346 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: civil rights. Sometimes they're not so good, but then they 347 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: kind of get reined in and and and turned into 348 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: legislative agendas and sort of merged you might say, into 349 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: one of the parties and uh normalized a little bit 350 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: um and then the fringers get marginalized. But the opposite 351 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: happened here, the passions took over the party on the 352 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: Republican side, and again Trump Trump's It's hard to say 353 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: what would have happened. But what if Trump hadn't run. 354 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 1: What if he had just been like as he had 355 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: in the past, sort of pretending, getting some publicity, and 356 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 1: then he shows not to postured, right, What if he 357 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: had just posture? What if therefore the nominee had been 358 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, Marko Rubio or Jem Bush or anyone 359 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: you want you know, or my favorite, Ted Cruz. Yeah, whatever, 360 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: what our politics be pretty different today. I guess I 361 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: on the one, and I think so because I do 362 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: think he's an important part of it. I mean, you 363 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: can have a lot of problems in our society and 364 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 1: our culture, a lot of bigotry, a lot of craziness, frankly, 365 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: but if it doesn't have a president willing to constantly 366 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: amplify it and magnify it, if you don't willing to 367 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: throw the match every day. You know, the gas, I 368 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: mean that the gas can sit there, could be bad, 369 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: it's not healthy, but it can sort of be kept 370 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 1: under control. So I guess I often do come. People 371 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: say you're a little obsessed with Trump, but I don't 372 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: think I am. But if I am, it's because I 373 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: do think this one man has done a huge amount 374 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,959 Speaker 1: of damage. But I will hasten to say this. He 375 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: could not have done the damage without the enabling by 376 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: the Republican Party and the conservative elites. And that's if 377 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: you could have had a president who was a bit 378 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: of a crack pot, who was silly, who was the 379 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: demago was screened and yelled. But you know what if 380 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: the party, beginning in January seen and said, look, fine, 381 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: your president, you propose your stuff, but we're going to 382 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: legislate soberly. We're not gonna echo you and everything crazy 383 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: you say. We're going to rebuke you when you go 384 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: too far, you would have had an unusual four years 385 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: in American politics, but not maybe an excessively damaging four years, 386 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: but the degree to which Republican elected officials, Republican donors, 387 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: and I would say conservative intellectual elite, so that last 388 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: for me is the most painful in a way and 389 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: the most disturbing just we're willing to go along with 390 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: him because they wanted to be part of the winning team. 391 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: That that did huge damage. I mean, I'm a pretty 392 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: moderate Democrat, and I think to myself, you know, there's 393 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: a finer line between Trump and lb J than people 394 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 1: want to admit. I mean, lb J was a haranguing, 395 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: furniture throwing I mean he was a real I mean, 396 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: no matter how much Bob Caro has sanitized by lbj's reputation, um, 397 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: the the lb J was somebody who he didn't get 398 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: his way. He's gonna make your life hell. He's me 399 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: on the phone till four o'clock in the morning. He was. 400 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: He was a bit of a lunatic as well in 401 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: terms of him pursuing his his goals. You know, it's funny, 402 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: can just say, I mean, I've often thought about that, 403 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: that it was I very much agree with that, and 404 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 1: I somehow the system was set up maybe more to constraining. 405 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: But I think if you look back, it's funny we 406 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: we we look back ideally on those posts called post 407 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: World War two years. It's kind of a little bit 408 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: of a things were healthier than But I mean, look 409 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: at the presidents we had. Honestly, between lb J and Nixon, 410 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: we had two people who were pretty disturbed. I think 411 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: you'd have to say if you looked at it analytically, right, 412 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: I mean that's one word. Yeah, I mean they were 413 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: pretty they were they were, and we survived them and 414 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: the people around them. I think we're more but we 415 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: paid a big price, as you were saying with Vietnam. 416 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: But as you pointed out, we had people that were 417 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: willing to oppose them. Yes, we in the Watergate era, 418 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: we had Republicans willing to vote to convict. We had 419 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: people that would stand up to the sky. I'm wondering, 420 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: um Pence has disappeared. Pence is laying low? Is he 421 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: following the same plan as he borrowing down? Getting ready 422 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: for I guess they're all getting ready for four. But 423 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: I mean this is the big story for me of 424 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 1: the months since Trump left. But really the three months 425 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: since the election is you could reasonably have thought, Okay, 426 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: Trump loses, he doesn't lose his badly as people thought 427 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: he would, and as he would have been better if 428 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: he had lost worse. And it's because it's not a 429 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: full scale of rdiation. They picked up seats in the house. 430 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: They ended up losing the set up, but it was 431 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: repudiation esque. Yeah, yeah, but that's a pretty big difference. 432 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: But still, and you would have I would have said, 433 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: it was not crazy to them to think, well, maybe 434 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: he really will start to fade away, and maybe more 435 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: people will say, okay, enough already, let's move on the 436 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: degree to which he was able to pull off the 437 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 1: big lie and keep the party on board at his 438 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: own administration on board, and and conservative elites to some 439 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: degree on board for the big lie, at least for 440 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: a month or two. Then they finally broke a little 441 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: bit after December fourteenth, and then after January six, and 442 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: then after January six, a lot of people said, and 443 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: again this wasn't silly. Okay, that's in a finally in 444 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: a way, it's horrible that had happened, but an opportunity 445 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: to finally get rid of Trump. And now look at it, 446 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: not at all out at all, right, I mean, Kevin 447 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: McCarthy goes to visit them, they're all busy sucking up 448 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: to him. The ones who don't want to suck up, 449 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: but just keeping quiet and hoping magically he goes away. 450 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: I think for me that's the almost as depressing as 451 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: the initial enabling of Trump is the current re enabling 452 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: of Trump. Well, I think that people who are of 453 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: a certain stripe, it's either that or they have nowhere 454 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: to go. If if you if you step away from 455 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: Trump and you go into the other camp, you're gonna 456 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: be in the corner with a drink in your hand, 457 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: all by yourself. You're gonna be lonely. There's no turning 458 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: back for them now, and you're gonna be attacked bitterly. 459 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: I mean that people do underestimate that. I mean, it 460 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: is silly, these county committees and the centers and all, 461 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: but if you're an actual politician, it's kind of your life, right, 462 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: That's what you do on weekends. You go to these meetings. 463 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: You meet these people. You've known these people for a while, 464 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: they supported you, they helped you. You go meet your 465 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: dotors and they're all attacking you. And that's why. Ultimately, 466 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: of course, the voters are the problem. And but they 467 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: get it's sort of a catch train to the leader. 468 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: The elites need to tell the truth to the voters. 469 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: They don't want to. They're intimidated, and so the voters 470 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: may continue in the delusions they've been led into by 471 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: Trump and his and his enablers. Do you ever spend 472 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: any time with Trump? No, I mean I met him 473 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: a couple of times, just as very marginally, and he 474 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: called this and I'll tell one story. So in the 475 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 1: summer after announced, uh, we were at the Trump at 476 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 1: the beginning of the Weekly Standard. But I wrote editorial 477 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: about three weeks into his um campaigns with June July, 478 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: and I said, you know, Trump's getting some traction. We 479 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: do not we would never support Donald Trump for president 480 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: at the Weekly Standard, but we will say that he's 481 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: getting some traction and he's probably hit some themes that 482 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: the other candidates need to look at and figure out 483 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: how to dullify. They can't just assume Trump is going 484 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: to go away. I had originally thought, like other candidates before, 485 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: whether it's a Pep Buchanan or Herman Kine or something, 486 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: you know, he would kind of fizzle out and the 487 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: establishment would as he always had win. So but I said, 488 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: I was worried about Trump. So this senatorial was I 489 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: guess you might say, respectful of Trump as a political 490 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: phenomenon that would be clear and like the second sentence 491 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: or something that we would never could never support him 492 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: bed for the country. So I get a phone call 493 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: on a Friday after the introal goes out, it goes 494 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: online Thursday night close the magazine and Thursday night then 495 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: and Friday afternoon, I get a phone call. I'm kind 496 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: of the office phone, and the receptionist comes back and says, 497 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: this someone on the phone. It's a woman and assistant 498 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: apparently saying that Donald Trump wants to talk to you. 499 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: So of course I figured it was some friend of mine, like, 500 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: goofing off, You'm playing a joke. But I was sitting 501 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: literally sitting my desk and it was kind of quiet, 502 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: so I said, okay, I get whoever it is, I'll 503 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: go along. And it was in fact Donald Trump's long 504 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: time personal secretary, and it was Trump and he was 505 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: calling from the plane, his plane that was about to 506 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: take off to go to Iowa. And it was like 507 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: it was funny, he said, I remember the stell. He 508 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: said stuff like, hey, they tell me you what some 509 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: editorial that was pretty nice to me that you said 510 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: you wouldn't vote for me. But I'll talk you out 511 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: of that. But at least you understand that they should 512 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: take me seriously. And what was funny was they said, 513 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: you vote the editorial. It was obvious and the editor 514 00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: was seven words. You know, It's like it didn't even 515 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: a heard of him that he would read the editorial. 516 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm not saying is that of any vanity that it 517 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: was like well written or anything. It's just kind of 518 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: funny that it's so much his world of people giving 519 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: him something and say, this guy Crystal is kind of 520 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: a pain. But you know, maybe you call him up 521 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: and stroke him for three minutes and maybe he'll be 522 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: nice around when he's on TV or he and Trump 523 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: was pretty good at that, I would say. I mean, 524 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: you know, it was a kind of in a certain 525 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: way if you like that kind of thing. He's, hey, 526 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: well we've gotta get together sometime on the trail, you know, 527 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: by buy a coffee, and I mean by your drink. 528 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: I don't drink, but you know, maybe you drink. And 529 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: I was kind of a little bit of that New 530 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: York backslapping sort of thing. That was Friday. He took 531 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: off Iowa. He said, I gotta hang up taking off Ioway. 532 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: I said, well, safe travels on on the trail and 533 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,719 Speaker 1: look forward to meeting you at some point, I suppose, 534 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: and that he took off. The next day was the 535 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: day that he attacked McCain in Iowa and said that 536 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: McCain wasn't a hero. I don't like people who've been captured. 537 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: The day after, I was on actually on ABC on 538 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: this Week and and said Trump's dead. I've never liked him, 539 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: but now he's he's dead. To be personally, I just 540 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: said so offensive what he just said. But also I 541 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: can't believe he could be the nominee. So that's my 542 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: political genius there. But that was a memorable two or 543 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: three days. So that was That's the last feel conversation 544 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: I had with Trump. I'm told you have a very 545 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: record and prognostication politically. Is that true? Yeah? Yeah, because 546 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: I always like to it's like the mess, you know. 547 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: I always like to pick the long shot and be contrarian, 548 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: but sometimes that doesn't work out. So well, yeah, right 549 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: now we're close to Garland probably being confirmed as the 550 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: attorney general. Yeah, this is the pivotal moment. I mean, 551 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: Biden winning I'm happy about the Garland nomination is something 552 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: that nothing has cheered me more than that Nothing's made 553 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: me happier than that. And I'm wondering which ones of 554 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: Trump's appointees, because Bar is my choice of were the 555 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: ones that were the most troublesome for you. Yeah, I'd 556 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: say Bar because it's such an important department, and because 557 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: I knew him a little bit, and I didn't quite 558 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: expect him to go as far as he did in 559 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: accommodating and enabling Trump. Why do you think he did? 560 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: Because he liked being attorney general and it was power, 561 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: and maybe talked himself into some of that. And I'm 562 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: sure he also talked himself into the if I don't 563 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: if I do this, I probably can not do some 564 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: other things that would be even crazier. It's hard to 565 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: know with people. And look, you know this, it's people's 566 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 1: psychologies are complicated, so they they're not, you know, coldly 567 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,719 Speaker 1: calculating rational. They talked themselves into things and they kind 568 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: of believe them. They start off not believing things and 569 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: they end up believing them. Pompeio similarly, who I it 570 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: was slightly and thought was pretty conservative and pretty partisan. 571 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: But the degree to which he just became a really 572 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: kind of disgraceful secretary of State I think I wouldn't 573 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: quite have expected that either, So, but those are important 574 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: departments defense. I think until the very end when he 575 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: fired us after the election, you know, they mostly prevented 576 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 1: the worst stuff from happening there, So I give them 577 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: some credit for that. How did you feel the way 578 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,880 Speaker 1: that Garland's Supreme Court nomination was handled as a lined 579 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: up against Barrett? Did that horrify you? The way that 580 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: McConnell's positioned that, Yes, it did, and I sort of 581 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: I think we said so at the time, but in 582 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: a kind of oh its, we don't really think this 583 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 1: is you know, this is just taking partisanship to a 584 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: new level. But whatever McConnell's doing, and I didn't think 585 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: you get away with it. I actually thought more Republican 586 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: senators even would say, you can't really do this as 587 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: pretty unprecedented. But I know Garland very slightly, but I 588 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: respect him a lot. I was very pleased that he 589 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 1: was nominated. I think he wouldn't have been. This is 590 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: one of these cases where one thing at least to another. 591 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: Because they won the Democrats one of those two Senate 592 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: races in Georgia January five, Biden felt he could afford 593 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: to nominate Garland, but he would then be able to 594 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: replace Garland on the DC circuit, very important, the most 595 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: important circuit below the Streme Court. So it's one of 596 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: these things where I don't think we would have Merrick 597 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: Garland a security general if the Democrats hadn't pulled out 598 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: those upsets and Georgia were about to have him. Uh, 599 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: people think very well of him. I like most of 600 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: Biden's appointments, you know, I mean most of the big ones. 601 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: What concerns you most about him? Because Biden is older, 602 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: he'll be eighty two years old or approaching eighty two 603 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: years old, what concerns you most about a Kamala Harris presidency. 604 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: I have to agree. Personal concern earns. I mean, I 605 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: think she's a serious person and a pretty impressive person, 606 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, generally, as you would expect coming from where 607 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: I've come, I prefer a more moderate Democrat. But I 608 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: would say this, I think politically what concerns me is 609 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: that it'll be easier to portray her as radical, and 610 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: some of that is let's not get ourselves of race 611 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: and gender, and that's not that's not her fault. I mean, 612 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: that's not a negative. I'm just saying in the real 613 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: world of politics, it'll be a little easier for some 614 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: demagogic Republicans and ad makers to say Kamala Harris is 615 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: dangerous to you, as opposed to saying Joe Biden is 616 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,719 Speaker 1: dangerous too. So I am a little worried about the 617 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: politics in a general election of Harris. But if she's 618 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: been vice president for Biden for four years, when week 619 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: she will have a record, they'll have a record, and 620 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: I assume she would run as the heir to the 621 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: Biden records. So if Biden has been a good president, 622 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: I think Democrats have a pretty good chance in four 623 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: and I think it's important. I mean, I say this 624 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: is someone who's still has some hopes that Republican Party 625 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: might come back someday. But I've got to say for 626 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: the foreseeable few you, which for me is really I 627 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: don't see a Republican party that one could really support 628 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 1: in good conscience. And I think it's important that Democrats 629 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 1: wind it to prevent this kind of authoritarianism and nativism 630 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: and demagoguery from coming back. And if that's the case, 631 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 1: I think it's important that Biden be a successful president. 632 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with the fact that no one talks about 633 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: Biden like everyone talks about Trump, which is understandable, and 634 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: everyone talks about all these other things going on in 635 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: the country and in the world, but it kind of 636 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: matters an old habit. Yeah, I want to see Joe 637 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: Biden succeed. I think it's important for the country to 638 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: have a sort of successful president Bill Crystal. If you're 639 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to 640 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: subscribe to hear the thing on the I Heart radio app, 641 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we 642 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: come back, Bill Crystal talks about what it will take 643 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 1: to loosen Trump's stranglehold on the Republican Party. I'm Alec Baldwin, 644 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: and you were listening to Here's the thing. Bill Crystal 645 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: founded the Weekly Standard. In The Weekly Standard was closed 646 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: down by our owners because we were anti Trump. At 647 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: the end of eighteen, I had given up being editor, 648 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: but I was sort of editor at large as Steve 649 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: Hayes was entor. And then it was closed down. Why 650 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: tell me? Because we were anti Trump and he was. 651 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: He's a wealthy business guy who is not himself like Trump, 652 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: but he wanted to get along with tru and the 653 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: Trump people were pretty tough that way. They would let 654 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: people know, why why are you paying for and effects 655 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: upsidizing this magazine that's attacking us all the time, And 656 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: maybe he just didn't like it. I don't know, so 657 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: he closed us down. He wouldn't let us find a buyer. 658 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: Is quite quite annoying. And so just a week later 659 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: I was sort of sitting on I think, at what 660 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: should we do? And Jonathan Lasa, let's let's just start 661 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: a website and we can probably get some readers we have, 662 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: we can get some good writers. Charlie Sikes was there 663 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: at the beginning to an other ex Republican, James Carver, 664 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: wrote for us. He went a very moving piece about hey, 665 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: we're on the same side. Now this is the height 666 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: of the election campaign obviously, so now, I mean, I'm 667 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: proud of it. It's been very I think it's been 668 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: open minded, it's been centrist, it's Republican, you might send 669 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 1: some issues and moderate Democrat on others. And above all 670 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: the critical of Trump and of the accommodation to Trump. 671 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: And I think the great insight Jonathan last and Charlie's 672 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: sakes have had is it's not going away. You can't 673 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: just tell yourself Trump is so longer president. Let's just 674 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: go back to being the kind of conservative Republicans. Are 675 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: moderately conservative Republicans we were in two or that does 676 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: not work. There was something wrong already that we didn't 677 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: pay enough attention to. But more importantly, whether it was 678 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: wrong or not, what's happened has happened, and the party 679 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: has got along with Trump and it's a different party. 680 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: And as we're seeing at the state level, these crazy 681 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: people are taking over the party at the local state level. 682 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: And then it's a big question what do we do 683 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: with third party? Try to fight to reform the Republican Party. 684 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: I just wrote a piece yesterday say, yeah, maybe what 685 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: we do is try to help Joe Biden be as 686 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: good at president as possible and accepted for now where 687 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: they're kind of ex Republican wing of the Democratic Party. 688 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: And we're not gonna be happy with everything the Democrats do. 689 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 1: But what democrat is happy with everything the Democrats do? 690 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: You know? So I'm very proud of the Bulwark. That 691 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: website is the Bulwark dot com. The Bulwark dot com. Yeah, 692 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to hear you say that. You want 693 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: to hear Biden succeed, and I would want a McCain 694 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: administration or so forth to succeed as well. And I 695 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: just singled out Trump with I just thought Trump was different. 696 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: This is different, because that's what horrified me about the 697 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: election when they voted for him in two thousand and sixteen. 698 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: I thought that my said, well, you didn't know. Now 699 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, you voted for him again and you knew 700 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: what you knew. I totally agree. I think such an 701 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: important point. I mean, I've said that an election night. 702 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: We did a live stream with the bullwork this you 703 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: know it and at midnight, and it was pretty clear 704 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: that Biden was gonna win once the late vote you know, 705 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: came in and Philadelphia and so forth. But I was 706 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: pretty depressed. And people said after this, and it was 707 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: because it wasn't enough of repudiation and because seventy four 708 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: million people voted for Trump after four years of Trump 709 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: and you know, you could talk yourself into thinking, shake 710 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: things up, kind of useful business guy, and they'll keep 711 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: in lie and the other people of the party outside. Yeah, 712 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: And I didn't agree with it, obviously, and I think 713 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: it was a short sighted and foolish but it was 714 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: you could be honestly a decent person and think that. 715 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: I think I kind of talk yourself into it. I 716 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: have trouble. I mean with thete seventy four million people 717 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: for Trump after watching him for four years, there's something 718 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: really worrisome about that. Over the arc of your considerable career. 719 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying this to be kind. I mean, 720 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: you're such a smart and you're such a blazingly articulate guy. 721 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: Why haven't you run for office? Did you ever contemplate that? Ever? 722 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, once or twice? This is funny. In the nineties, 723 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: so the Bush I was in the regular Bush administrations. 724 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: We lost, obviously, and so I was kind of a 725 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: free person in January ninety three, trying to figure what 726 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: to do next. Ended up starting the Weekly Standard magazine 727 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: about two years later, two and half years later. But 728 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: and a few people did say, come back to New 729 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: York and run for something, and it just didn't seem 730 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: I don't have the personality of a politician. I am not. 731 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,839 Speaker 1: I am not a hail fellow. Well, Matt, I think 732 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm a polite person, but I'm probably too just not 733 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: really into the no retail politics for you now, I 734 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: don't think sitting at all these long dinners and pretending 735 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: to be interested by everyone's speeches and all that. I I, 736 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: what about appointments we ever approached about in an appointment? Wells, 737 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: I served in the regular Bush administration. I of course, yeah, 738 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: what did you do in those two administrations? So I 739 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: was I went to Washington eight five that this is 740 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: a pretty young thirty two, I guess. I was a 741 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: speechwriter for a bit for Bill Bennett and then became 742 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: his chief of staff of the Education Department. That was 743 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: a different era. I think Bill was a you know, 744 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: he was controversial, but he was a forced for education 745 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: reform and stuff. We tried to be civilized where we 746 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: even though we caused some trouble. Then I went into 747 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: the George H. W. Bush White House and worked for 748 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: Dan Quayle, the vice president, and became his chief of 749 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: staff after a few months. And that, of course, yes, 750 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: I got a thick skin, just like you do. You know, 751 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: after four years of being of taking grief for that, 752 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad we provided a lot of material for a 753 00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: Saturday out live of brothers. And he's a good man, honestly, 754 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,720 Speaker 1: and and I think you know, had some bad breaks 755 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: in terms of br and all, and I didn't do 756 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: a very good job, probably assistive of staff helping him 757 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: overcome that. I think he was actually pretty good Vice president. 758 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: The George H. W. Bush administration was a pretty good administration. 759 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: I think historians will judge. Signed some bipartisan legislation Clean 760 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: Air Act, American's Disabilities that got the budget deficit going 761 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: in the right direction, ended the Cold War peacefully and responsibly, 762 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: got Sadamo saying out of Kuwait, which I think was 763 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: the right thing to do. We just got Cooberate, we 764 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: got colloberd In No people want to change twelve years 765 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: of Reagan. Bush Clinton was an attractive candidate. Good lesson that. 766 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: You know, election results don't always correlate maybe with what's deserved. 767 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: But anyway, that was my last Uh yeah, I have 768 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: a good record of being on That was the one 769 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: campaign I was most involved in, the ninety two Bush 770 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: Cuil reelect, and we got and we got and we 771 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 1: got crushed. So that's my I've had a very I've 772 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: had a very consistent electoral That's what another reason I 773 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: didn't get into electoral politics from the very beginning. I've 774 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: never been really much of a success in that area. 775 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: Do you think Trump has anything to worry from side 776 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: Vance and New York? Yeah, I don't know a thing 777 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: more than I've read, but yeah, I think he does. Yeah. 778 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: He certainly went out of his way, fought all the 779 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: hard to keep his tax returns and business records out 780 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: of their hands. And usually if people do that, that's 781 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,919 Speaker 1: because they don't want prosecutors. They think they're worried about 782 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: what prosecutors will find. Why do you think the Republican 783 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: Party can't shake their addiction to Trump? So? I think 784 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: for the elites it is it is somewhat fear and opportunitism. 785 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of the voters, I 786 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: just think we can't overestimate how much Trump unleashed a 787 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: lot of things they had been feeling and anxieties, concerns, 788 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: but also bigotries and hatreds frankly, and resentments. And once 789 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: people are told it's fine, you should say things that 790 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 1: you wouldn't in the past, they might have thought these things. 791 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't have a polyaddish view exactly. That's 792 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 1: what I say to people. What Trump did was there 793 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 1: were things that we knew that half the country felt 794 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: this way. They have their prejudices, their racism, their anti semitism, 795 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: their misogyny or whatever. But he didn't say that, and 796 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: it makes a big difference. If you don't say it 797 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: and can't say it, because it does mean that you 798 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: sort of are acknowledging, then that's not quite respectable. Look 799 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: in a better world, people wouldn't think it in the 800 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 1: first place. But in a decent world, you can still 801 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: have a decent world where people keep it to themselves, 802 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: so to speak, at least most of the time. But 803 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: once the president unleashes it and ratifies it and justifies 804 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 1: it and fosters it, it's very hard to put that 805 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: toothpaste back in the tube. Bill Crystal, editor at large 806 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: of the Bulwark dot Com. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're 807 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, 808 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: Carrie donohue and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 809 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.