1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's me James, just introducing this podcast. I'm 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 2: recording this the day after we recorded the episode to 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,159 Speaker 2: today's Thursday, the twenty first of March. I wanted to 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 2: just update a couple of things and correct a couple 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: of things, so I've just listened through the episodes. 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 3: I'm going to do that now. 8 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: Firstly, I think I said Igler a couple of times 9 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 2: when I meant strella. It's the Strella portable surface to 10 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: our missiles have been refitted with new batteries in the 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: Syrian Civil Wars specifically, and I've included a link to 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: a document about that in the show notes. So apologies 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 2: for getting those two things confused. They're both I guess 14 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: former Soviet service to our missile systems. The other things 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: I wanted to mention are that a few like throughout 16 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 2: this episode, we've used manpads, right. That's kind of the 17 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: colloquial term or the official term really for person portable 18 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: anti aircraft systems, like it obviously doesn't mean that you 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: have to be a man to use one, certainly like 20 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: the fact that the hPG are using them and that 21 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: the Kurdish Freedom Movement are using them, obviously women can 22 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: use them, non binary folks can use them, to everyone 23 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 2: can use them. And finally, I just wanted to mention 24 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: that there have been some suggestions that the thing that 25 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 2: was used to shoot down the bay Ragtars was like 26 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: loitering munition, which is something that is often called a 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: suicide drone. In this case, it's not a loitering munition 28 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: that impacts something on the ground, but impact something on 29 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 2: the air. There's an Iranian system that does that, but 30 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 2: apparently it's possible to replicate that with a large number 31 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 2: of off the shelf or sort of commercially available pieces. 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: So maybe that's what's going on. 33 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 2: This episode was a little bit speculative, and we still 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: don't have lots of hard answers, but we hope you'll 35 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: enjoy it because it represents a change in a relationship 36 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: between the state and people who are not the state, 37 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: and that's why it's important. 38 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: Okay, hope you enjoy. 39 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: Hello, podcast fans, Welcome back to the podcast. I'm joined 40 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 2: today by my friend Mia Himea. Hello, and we are 41 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: talking about, of course, surface to wear missiles, a topic 42 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: that I'm sure is on the top of mind for 43 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: all of you as you drive to work this morning. 44 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: Where are we talking about surface to air missiles today? Well? 45 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 2: Today is it is Wednesday, the twentieth of March, and 46 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: today I'm sure maybe some of you would have seen 47 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: some of the most of you probably will not as 48 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: you go about your daily lives. 49 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 3: That the k c K. 50 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: The k c K is the group, the Kurdistan Communities Union, 51 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: the joint group between the various groups in the different 52 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 2: parts of Kurdistan. Right, So you have the PKK, You 53 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: have they in Syria, p KK in Turkey, right, the 54 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: p JACK in Iran. In the KK like brings all 55 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: these groups together? 56 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: Do they? 57 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 4: Is there a name? 58 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 3: Do they? 59 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 4: Is there like an Iraqi branch? That's the one that 60 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:56,559 Speaker 4: I don't know. You have the yevishe the Azdi group? Right, yeah, 61 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 4: Kurdish one. 62 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: I think everyone I will reconsider my statement. The people 63 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: who I have become aware of who are in Iraq, 64 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 2: who are who I know about journalistically, are Ksek people. Okay, 65 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 2: little little bit of smoke and mirrors feed there, but yeah, 66 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: the people, the people who who I know who are 67 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: in the Kurdistan Autonomous Region are Ksek. So I think 68 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 2: that I think most of the sort of people within 69 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: the Greater like Kurdish Freedom Movement. 70 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: The Apoche people are KCK within Iraq. 71 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: It is in the Kurdistan Autonomous Region, so like Iraqi 72 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 2: in a technical sense, but only only really in a 73 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: technical sense, Like when you go to the Kurdistan Autonomous Region, 74 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: you don't even do Iraqi immigration. You do Kurdistyan immigration, 75 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: which is nice because it's a lot easier. I was 76 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: there in October of twenty twenty three, and since February 77 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, the KCK have an out. They 78 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: have shut down thirteen Turkish unmanned aerial vehicles, right, which 79 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: what you and I would call drones. And we're not 80 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: talking about drones like your friend has a drone and 81 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: they use it to film you at the beach drones. 82 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: We're talking about like bairaktar drones, which are it's an aircraft, right, 83 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: Like if you saw one, you would be like, oh, 84 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: there goes a plane. 85 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like it's it's like the Turkish version of 86 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 4: the Predator drones and. 87 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: The US users, Yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, it's a 88 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: very similar thing. It's a very popular drone system actually, right, 89 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 2: they've sold bairaktars to. I think dozens of countries like 90 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: like they're I mean most all over, yeah, thirty one 91 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: countries that they've exported the bairaktar to, so they're very 92 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: widely used. They're kind of the the sort of drone 93 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 2: of choice for people who are just like buying on 94 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: the open market. Right. Karta uses them, Ukraine uses them 95 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 2: a lot, but even countries like I'm looking here Bikina 96 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 2: Faso has has biraugtars So what's notable about this is 97 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: they've also shot down a Kinchi's a kinchiese are like 98 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: the newer bairakta variant that they make a slightly different noise. 99 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 2: I've spent some time in places that are being attacked 100 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: by drones over the last year, and it's it's. 101 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: A highly unpleasant experience. 102 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 2: But people who are used to this, which I am, 103 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: I guess thankfully not, will tell you that they can 104 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: tell the difference the noise at least these drones to make. 105 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 2: But there was a kinchi, for instance, I believe it 106 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: was in a kinchi that did some of the attacks 107 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: that I was unfortunate enough to be nearby when I 108 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 2: was in ro In October. So what's notable about this 109 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: is like the k c K obviously, like they're a 110 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 2: non state actor, right because there is not a Kurdish state. 111 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: There is a Kurdish nation, one might argue, but it's 112 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: split between four states Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Turkey, and 113 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: so them being able to shoot down droned it's quite 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: remind uckable. 115 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, one's none of the non state actors really 116 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 4: in the last like twenty years have been able to 117 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 4: do this. Like like everyone talks about how advanced like 118 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 4: isis's capabilities were for a non state actor, and they were, 119 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: but they couldn't do it, Like it's wild, No, like who. 120 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: These have shut down some reaper drones. 121 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, but but they're but they're a state, Like that's 122 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 4: the thing, Like they'd have huge swaths of the regular 123 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 4: you many military are just like. 124 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they're supplied by other state actors, right, 125 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: like very clearly as it's a little different. What, Yeah, 126 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: it's this is relatively remarkable, right that they've been able 127 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: to shoot down like and not just it's not just 128 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: like oh we got lucky, we got we got lucky 129 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 2: and dropped a single drone. ISIS had if I remember correctly, 130 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 2: Isis had some Igla manpads, like the old Russian man pads. 131 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: The thing with those and we're going to talk about 132 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: this a little bit later. They they have like a 133 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: battery and that battery will run out over a certain 134 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: or they're sold that. Some of them are just being 135 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 2: sold on the black market without batteries. From what I've seen, 136 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: some folks in that we've seen in the civil war 137 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: in Syria have worked out how to somehow make that 138 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 2: battery work with or make another battery, or make another 139 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: electronic system for them. They don't have like a lockout, right, 140 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: they don't have a like we've detected, you know, like 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: your iPhone will sometimes get mad if you're using a 142 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: third party charger. 143 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. 144 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: So Tim Apples was not involved in the design of 145 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: the NK thelia Igler more so pity and so he 146 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: wasn't able to engineer it a third party luckout. But 147 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: those have been repurposed. But yeah, we did not see 148 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: the Islamic state of Irak and El Sham dropping US drones. 149 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: In fact, the reason like the thing that are allowed, 150 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: there are two things that allowed the defeat of the 151 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: so called Islamic state rate one, the heroism of the 152 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: people who fought against them, be they like I Rocky Kurdish, 153 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: you know, a lot of people for the against have 154 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 2: fifteen thousand kurt died fighting isis But also the fact 155 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: that the US had complete air dominance and could just 156 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: fucking obliterate things from the sky whenever it wanted to. 157 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: It did, it did a lot of It did a 158 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: lot of obliterating things from the sky, right, And so 159 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: the ability to shoot down drones is something that has 160 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 2: been very hard for non state actors. And it's not 161 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 2: like it's not like the k c K has a 162 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 2: state sponsor, right yeah. 163 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. Also so like like for example, like hesbal Lah 164 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 4: has shot down to although these weren't actually they shut 165 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 4: down to Hermes like it is really hermis drones. So 166 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 4: though those are just sort of those are surveillance things. 167 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 4: But the thing is like Hezbola did this by getting 168 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 4: surface there missles, like getting surface their rockets from Iran. 169 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: Yeah sure, yeah, that's right. 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 4: That's like, you know, the way that you can do 171 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 4: this is if either like Iran, the US, I guess 172 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 4: technically China and or and or Russia like hand you 173 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 4: them but if none of those four countries are willing 174 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 4: to play ball or I mean I guessically the UK, yes, 175 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,839 Speaker 4: or like France could send you one, but like it's 176 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 4: it's it's really really like I don't. I don't think 177 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 4: any non state actor who wasn't being just directly armed 178 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: by one of those states has pulled it off. 179 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: No. The other non state actor who I've seen with 180 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: manpads very recently are the Koren, the current national liberal 181 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 2: k in l A. The k and LA have been 182 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: putting out these pictures. This is in me and mar Yes, 183 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: this is in Mema. So for folks who haven't listened 184 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 2: to our previous Meama episodes, go and listen to them. 185 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: But yeah, there's some of the work I'm proud of. 186 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 2: But these k and LA guys have these photos have 187 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: come out that then they're not not post photos, right. 188 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 2: They they very clearly they wanted these photos to come 189 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: out and it shows them with these manpad system. I'm 190 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: actually not sure if it's a strella or a Chinese 191 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: I think it's called the eighth N five the Chinese. 192 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: It's essentially the same thing, but they have the grip 193 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: stock for them, but they don't have the coolant ball 194 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: and the battery at the front, so like that they're 195 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: what they have is a fancy looking doesn't appear to 196 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: my eyes to be like fully functional, like in terms 197 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 2: of tracking and shooting down an aeroplane. Although I have 198 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 2: seen footage from friends of Hunter aircraft deploying like flares 199 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 2: over a current state and then like turning around and leaving, 200 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: So perhaps there's something I'm missing here, Like, it's entirely 201 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: possible that when they decided for these photos come out, 202 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: they they're in a certain fashion. And like those guys 203 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: who engineered and tire arms industry of their own using 204 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: Reddit and Ali express, like I, if anybody can make 205 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 2: something work, they can make something work. 206 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: I have great faith in their ingenuity. 207 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: And as I said, like it's people in Syria have 208 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: previously made systems like this work. They're not they don't 209 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: have that lockout, so it's quite possible that they did. 210 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: But I've not seen a video of anyone in Mianmar 211 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: shooting down and any kind of aircraft yet. Right the 212 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: Russian aircraft that they have shot down aircraft allegedly someone 213 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: shot one down with with a like a grenade launcher, 214 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: a single shot grenade launcher solid video, Yeah, which one 215 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: of the most chadly things anyone's ever done. It's it's 216 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: some like modern warfare or whatever whatever. The computer game 217 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: is called Battlefield, that's what it's called. Yeah, talking of 218 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: talking of Chadley and exciting stuff. This might be an 219 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: advert for like being a prison guard or something exciting 220 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: that we have to to introduce. Now, okay, don't don't 221 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: be a prison guard? 222 00:11:59,400 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 3: All right? 223 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: Back, have you found gain from employment elsewhere outside of 224 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: the cast real system? And we're talking about surface to 225 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: our missiles, particularly these thirteen surface to our missile of 226 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: thirteen drones that the casey K have shut down, right, 227 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: One thing I thought that was noticeable is that they 228 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: did say missiles they are people were able to pride 229 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: the missile system necessary that So like there's a theory 230 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: that I've seen that that they were able to crash 231 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: a drone of their own into into a bayractar like 232 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 2: a kind of like I guess, like a suicide. I 233 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: don't like the word suicide drone because it's not the 234 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: drone that's dying. Like normally when people talk about suicide drones, 235 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 2: they're killing people. 236 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, but like a ramming drone. Yeah yeah, yeah, like 237 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 4: a like a it's like robot Wars. But they said 238 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: missile on their press. 239 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: Really, so you know, if we take that on the 240 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 2: if we take that on the face of it, that 241 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: that suggests that they shut them down. Certainly this like 242 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: there is good video evidence of the mirror and I 243 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: just reviewed the video. Incredible soundtrack. We'll link to it 244 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: in the We'll link to it in the show notes. 245 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: In the videos, you very clearly see Oh it's a drone. 246 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: Oh it's a huge explosion that gravity is now having 247 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 2: its effect on this drone, like it is plummeting to earth. 248 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's it's definitely not a like we've fired 249 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 4: a machine gun in the air and it hit it 250 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 4: somehow or something like. It's right, it got hit quite explosive. Yeah, yeah, 251 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 4: that's remarkable. 252 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. 253 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: One of the there was a shooting down of an 254 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: aircraft in them. It wasn't one of them makes I 255 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: forgot it might have been. It was a two seater 256 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: training plate. I can't remember quite what it was, but 257 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: that was shot down supposedly by small arms fire or 258 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: maybe like a generally the like the air defense of 259 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 2: most non state arm groups has been dushcuts right, like 260 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: a it's a thing that you've seen in the back 261 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 2: of a pickup truck going like bang ban bang, with 262 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 2: a big sort of spade grip. It's a classic technical gun. 263 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: But this isn't that, Like, this is something very different, 264 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: something they're they're exploding when these drones get hit, they're exploding. 265 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 2: And they've all been in I think, oh yeah, all 266 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: of them are in areas of the what we call 267 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: the Kurdistan Autonomous Region. A bit of rock, right, So 268 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: some of them are in zap which is near to 269 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: Hok but towards north of there. Some of them in 270 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: the Kandil Mountains, which is part of the Zagros Mountain Range. 271 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: Again it's it's in the north of that Kurdistan Autonomous Region, 272 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: and I think some of them are in it. I 273 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: think it's Gabay, it's pronounced, but they're not in like 274 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: I think obviously, when a lot of people think about 275 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: the Kurdistan Freedom Movement, they think about Rajava. This isn't there. 276 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: The US did shoot down a by rakta or in 277 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 2: a Kinchi over Rajava while I was there, but they 278 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: only shot it down because it flew over their base. 279 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: They continued to let the bay Raktars bomb civilian infrastructure 280 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: all over the A and E S. So these these 281 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: are not there, these are so perhaps whatever they're using 282 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: so interesting, right, Like it's maybe it's not something they 283 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: can take there, or maybe it's not you know, like 284 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: it's not they're not able to get it out of 285 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: the mountains. 286 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: It's too much of a risk. 287 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 4: No, it's it's interesting, I mean for a number of reasons. Well, yeah, 288 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 4: partially that they're not using it in serior. Partially they're 289 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 4: also they don't seem to be using them in Turkey either. 290 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: No, it's interesting when they take off, it's not that 291 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 2: like subtle, right, it's a big aircraft, so they'll get 292 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: some warning when they take off and that would allow them, 293 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 2: I guess, to prepare their munitions. But yeah, they don't 294 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: seem to be using it. They seem to be using 295 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 2: it in like this this area. Whether they're very strong, right, 296 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: whether these mountains are extremely fortified, they've been fighting Turkey. 297 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: There are a lot in recent days and weeks. You 298 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: can always i mean, obviously you're going to see some 299 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 2: somewhat traumatic combat footage, but Garrilla TV always has like 300 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: updates on these things. So that's the sort of thing 301 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 2: that you you know, like to keep up to date with. 302 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: But yeah, they're not using them there, they're not using them. 303 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: They're they're very close to Turkey, right, but yeah, not 304 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: not quite in and Turkey soldiers do occupy some areas 305 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: inside the Iraqi curts Down Autonomous Region, so like they 306 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 2: it's kind of all and Turkey seems to be kind 307 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: of trying to ramp up its operations against the Courts 308 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 2: Down Freedom movement inside the Curtis Donal Autonomous Region, but 309 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: this is a significant impediment to that. 310 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: Right. 311 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: It's also very interesting that like we have not heard 312 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: shit about this from Turkey. 313 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 4: No, Yeah, well, and I think I think part of 314 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: this is you know, like I think it's something that 315 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 4: as an indication of how serious this is, because I mean, 316 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 4: this has been you know, the law of the twenty 317 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 4: first century is that if you're a state actor, you 318 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 4: have unlimited air superiority over any non state group you're bombing, 319 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 4: and you can, you know, especially especially if you're like 320 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 4: the US, you can send bombers or drones into like 321 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 4: any country you want and you can bomb them. Yeah, 322 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 4: and that has been true, and this has been the 323 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 4: basis of US military power. It's also been the basis 324 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 4: of a lot of like, you know, the Turkey obviously 325 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: doesn't have the same air doctrine as the US does, 326 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 4: but like that's been the basis of a lot of 327 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 4: Turkish operations that they like, they're the people who have 328 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 4: airpower on because they have airpower, because they have drones, 329 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 4: because you can't shoot back at them, they can do 330 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 4: whatever the fuck they want. 331 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I've been in the situation where you are 332 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: completely powerless and very afraid because at some point something 333 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: could fall out the night sky and kill you and 334 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 2: there's fuck all you can do about it. And yeah, yeah, 335 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 2: that has been the way of the world, like you say, 336 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: for this entire century. Right, it's what we've seen. I mean, meanma, 337 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: the pro democracy forces are gaining ground every day. They're 338 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 2: doing an incredible job. But like I've also talked to 339 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 2: people whose whole unit has been wiped out and they've 340 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 2: hidden under the dead bodies of their friends because as 341 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: a plane or a helicopter circling around, and it's the 342 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: one area where they've really struggled to defend themselves, right, 343 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: And it's I'm writing a book about anarchist at War. 344 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: Eventually I will publish that book. But this is the 345 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: thing that defines like the benit like the state. Even 346 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: when the state like loses its monopoly on legitimate violence, 347 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: it still has monopoly on airborne violence. And the questioning 348 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: that monopoly, like is is incredibly dangerous for the state's 349 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,239 Speaker 2: ability to for the state, I guess in general, like 350 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: for its continued ability to crush movements, be they liberatory 351 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 2: or be they otherwise. 352 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 4: Right, we can know, I mean, this is something I 353 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: think is really interesting. This is something that's been a 354 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 4: fear of I mean everyone from like Western intelligence people 355 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 4: through like I mean you can see people in like 356 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: Hollywood freaking out about this, Like like rebel group gets 357 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 4: access to a manpad is like one of the most 358 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 4: common like spy show plots. Yeah, and yeah, it's like 359 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 4: it's something that you know, you can listen to, like 360 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 4: the US military talking about this. Is this is something 361 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 4: that they're really concerned about. 362 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, they won't sub like it's their where it's where 363 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: they draw the line with the groups who are quote 364 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: unquote allies, right, who'll be quote Like the US will 365 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: tell you that the SDF for their allies in the 366 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: fight against ISIS. But they're willing to let their allies 367 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 2: die rather than give them manpads. Right, Like, I've seen this. 368 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 3: I have. 369 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: I've seen the funerals, you know, because they and the US. 370 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: But I've also driven right past the fucking US base 371 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 2: and I know that there are plenty of malny of 372 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 2: plenty of anti aircraft systems there because they shut down 373 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 2: a Turkish drone. 374 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 3: While I was there. 375 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: But they're not willing to give them to even the 376 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: people who they'll fight side by side with because their 377 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: fear of having manpads get into what they would maybe 378 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 2: term the wrong hands is is. Yeah, it's like the 379 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 2: the one area where they have I guess, complete domination. 380 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 3: Right. 381 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: They've given them to Ukraine, of course, but despite like 382 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: repeated allegations, there is no evidence that Ukraine has sold 383 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 2: surface to wear systems anywhere, and they obviously weren't give 384 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 2: them to me Anmar, right, So it's yeah, if this 385 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: is what it appears to be, then it's a really 386 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: massive change. Talking of a massive change, you could you know, 387 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 2: you can make a massive change to your financial situation 388 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: by purchasing gold. 389 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 3: We're back, Yeah, I. 390 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 4: Think something that's really interesting about the way that the 391 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 4: sort of man pad getting to know and say to actors. 392 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 3: Has talked about is that. 393 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 4: Usually the way that it's like usually the US line 394 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 4: on it is like we cant like we can't let 395 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 4: anyone get these us They're gonna use it to shoot 396 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 4: down civilian airliners. Yes, yeah, And now, to be fair, 397 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 4: people do accidentally shoot down like militaries accidentally shoot down 398 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 4: civilian airliners all the time. Yeah, Like that's a very 399 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 4: common thing. But I think I think that's that's a 400 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 4: smoke screed, right, because like even like the actual thing 401 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 4: that if you're if you're a militant group, usually the 402 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 4: thing that you want to be doing if you have 403 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: one of these weapons is shooting down the things that 404 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 4: the people who are bombing you. Yeah, And I think 405 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 4: there's a really interesting sort of like psychological thing going 406 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 4: on here. This is this is the sort of propaganda 407 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 4: thing that that you know, to to get to get 408 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,479 Speaker 4: like you random person to be terrified of, Like you know, 409 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 4: the Kurds having surface to air missiles, is they used 410 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: like they use people's like fear of getting blown up 411 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: on an airplane. It's like no, no, like click at 412 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 4: like you know, evidence suggests that what is actually what 413 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 4: actually happens that these is that they shoot down drones. 414 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, exactly right, and not like the other thing, 415 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: which is somewhat remarkable. It's it would be one thing 416 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: to have got your hands on one or two, but 417 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 2: to have been to have shut down in a one 418 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: year pit well just over one year from February thirteenth, 419 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three until marks the first, twenty twenty four, 420 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: they have shot down fifteen UAVs like that. That's a 421 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: that's a decent number of manpads or maybe not manpads. 422 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 2: That's the other thing we kind of didn't mention, right, 423 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: Like bait raptas can fly very high. We were just 424 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: sort of checking this out before the show, and I 425 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: think they can fly around seven thousand meters, which when 426 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 2: in theory put about side feet twenty five thousand feet, yeah, 427 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 2: which is about twice the like the the height previous 428 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: generation man pads like things like stingers and iglers can 429 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: can operate at I'm not sure of the the what 430 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: the for for an igler reach targets and macxum altitude 431 00:22:58,520 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 2: of two thy five hundred meters. 432 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a little under. 433 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: As high as these as these like attack drones can fly, 434 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 2: maybe they have to come lower to like launch their munitions, 435 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 2: or maybe they come lower to to search for people 436 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 2: and presumably looking for The Kurdistan Freedom Movement has guerrillas 437 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 2: all over these mountains right here, extremely well camouflaged and 438 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 2: extremely adept at avoiding drone attacks because that is what 439 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: they have been doing for for a long time. 440 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 3: So maybe that's how. 441 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 2: But also maybe maybe there's something that we're not aware 442 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: of or some kind of Maybe it's not a man 443 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 2: portable system at all. Maybe it's something that is like 444 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: fixed in place well, and that and that comes. 445 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 4: I think one of the one of the really interesting 446 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 4: questions to you, which is how on earth did they 447 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 4: get these? Yeah, whatever whatever system you're using, you know 448 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 4: normally like the only way, like you know, like has 449 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 4: blah or the whoies get them from Iran? Right, But 450 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 4: the Radians are absolutely like, under no circumstances are they 451 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 4: going to I mean maybe if Turkey declared war on Iran, 452 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 4: there's like a five percent chance maybe in like their 453 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 4: darkest hour, they might try this, Like there's no way. 454 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like Iraq and Iran have repeatedly attempted to mobilize 455 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: the Kurds against each other, right, but yeah, I think 456 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 2: that they would draw the line at handing over manpads and. 457 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're definitely not getting them from the US. 458 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 2: No, then they're using them in areas where they're with 459 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 2: the US, and the US has been very clears. 460 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 4: Like like you know, it's it's it's definitely not I 461 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 4: don't think it's any other Western country either, Like, yeah, 462 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 4: it doesn't make any sense. Like I mean, maybe like 463 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 4: based Sweden smuggling pads in or something, but I really 464 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: doubt it, which leaves it really like up in the air. 465 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 4: I mean, like maybe Russia maybe somehow, I don't know. 466 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 4: It's it's it's all very weird. 467 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean like in recent months, the A 468 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,199 Speaker 2: Side regime, which is backed by Russia, has been an 469 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: open conflict with the SDF, So I think it it's 470 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: it's very unlikely, like the Asad regime has been fighting 471 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: with and killing it and dying with ye again in Syria, 472 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 2: so it seems very unlikely. Yeah, it's very That's what's 473 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: very strange, Like the there seems to be a couple 474 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: of different groups of people, right, like the Kuren have 475 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,360 Speaker 2: popped up with these previous generations Igla. 476 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 3: Kind of manpads. 477 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 2: The Kitchin have shot down a lot of planes recently, 478 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 2: and it's not entirely clear how so the Kitchen or 479 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: another ethnic group in Myanmar a somewhat closer ties to 480 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 2: the pr C. The United ware State Army have manpads. 481 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: They are the sort of closest tied to the PRC 482 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: of the e r os in Myanma. I'm using a 483 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: lot of acronyms here on it. 484 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is just the problem we're talking about, Curtis 485 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 4: Group's not I'm talking about, Yes, like the two great 486 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 4: acronym like wars. 487 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 2: Don't be overlooking the Spanish Civil War, the alphabet soup 488 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 2: of conflicts. Yeah, this is this is a life I've 489 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,639 Speaker 2: chosen for myself. So, yeah, the ethnic revolutionary organizations in 490 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 2: Mielma the closest to China. It's the United ware State 491 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: Army who have been at the fringes of the conflict, 492 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: but it is certainly not fully committed to fighting against 493 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 2: the Hunter in the same way that the Karen, the Kachin, 494 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 2: the Arakan Army, the PDF for the other groups that 495 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: form the resistance in Burma or Memma are but there 496 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: have definitely been more planes shot down in Memma this 497 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 2: year than in the last few years, So there's perhaps 498 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: there's some kind of source in the world for these 499 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: service to msas. There will come a point in the 500 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 2: human future, right when one of these is either reverse 501 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 2: engineered or someone just really, if someone had said to 502 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 2: you ten years ago that, like several people online, some 503 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: of whom I've spoken to, some of whom our friend 504 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: j Camera had spoken to, would be able to construct 505 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 2: a gun that you could print from your computer, like 506 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: you'd you'd have said, you're barking right like, and at 507 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: some point in the human future someone will work out 508 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: how to use things they already have to make something 509 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: that can shoot down aircraft. But yeah, it's baffling like that. 510 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 2: There seems to be no obvious answers to where what 511 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 2: the source of these the The last thing I will 512 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 2: say is that there was a yakuzer boss. Yeah, yeah, 513 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: this guy legend. It's just like he like, this man's 514 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: my man's done nothing wrong. He was convicted of selling 515 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: trying to sell man pared to the Korene and I 516 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 2: think to the Kachin, I can't remember if one of 517 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: them with the koren Uh and he was trying to 518 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 2: do so very funny. He was calling them cake and 519 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: ice cream and incredibly incredibly good cipher. It's a hell 520 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: of a it's a banger of an indictment. Everyone should 521 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 2: read it to Keshi. I forget what his last name was, 522 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: but he he was trying to sell man pads and 523 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: what he was actually doing was being monitored by the DEA. 524 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 2: But the man pads that he thought that he had 525 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: access to were fictional, like it was. It was it 526 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: was the FEDS who had conned him into thinking they 527 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 2: had man pads. They did have some eighty fours. He 528 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 2: met them in the Netherlands. Took an incredible selfie with 529 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: a light anti tank weapon and you can look it up. 530 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: Leather jacket, like I think he's got blue aviators on, 531 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: Like my man's been arrested for having incredible drip and 532 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 2: it's very sad. But yeah, the man pads he thought 533 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: he was selling were fictional. But the fact that people 534 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: were like, yeah, this seems reasonable like that people were like, okay, 535 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 2: we're prepared to enter this deal with you. They weren't like, 536 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 2: what are you on about suggests that maybe these things 537 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: are entering the market. People will always say that they 538 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: came from Afghanistan, like after the US left. But I 539 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 2: don't think the Taliban would have any reason to sell them. 540 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: They're getting bombed by Pakistan right now. Like what Yeah, yeah, 541 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 2: it doesn't seem it doesn't make sense to me that 542 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 2: that they would sell them. Yeah, and I one thing 543 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: I should also mention is like every single time there 544 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 2: is a war anywhere in the world, there are a 545 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 2: trillion rumors that come out. They're like, oh, there's like 546 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 2: this guy is selling like ex weapons or whatever, and 547 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: it's like ninety nine percent of them are false. 548 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you hear this all the time and 549 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 4: it's never true. Yes, So that makes it really hard 550 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 4: to sort out like where these things are coming from. Yeah, exactly. 551 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 4: A friend of the podcast, Victor Boot is he's free again. 552 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: He's back maybe maybe maybe he's gotten back on Maybe 553 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 2: the god of war is back. 554 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 3: Baby. 555 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: It would be incredible, there would be an incredible narrative 556 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: art for Victor Boot. But like as we said in 557 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 2: that episode, right, like it's very easy to point to 558 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: Victor Boot as being this evil guy, but in fact, 559 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 2: like we've sold a shit ton of weapons to people 560 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: who turn out to be pretty pretty uncivil as the 561 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: United States, a lot more people working all the other 562 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 2: places that have offices in San Diego made a lot 563 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: more money than he did selling weapons to people. So 564 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 2: you know, we ought to be you know, popcorn and 565 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: the cut back a bit there, but clearly something is 566 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 2: up with surface to our missiles. I hope this makes 567 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 2: your spring Bak flights more exciting. 568 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 3: It just gives it a little edge as you take off. 569 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 2: Don't fly in Turkey, Yeah, yeah, that's the our tip 570 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 2: is to to not fly from not land. I guess 571 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 2: in I mean, like we said, the KSEK and go 572 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: to shoot down your civilian plane, then they're nice people. 573 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 2: I'll just say the KSEK and my experience have been 574 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 2: very nice, very forthcoming, extremely communicative and responsive to press requests, 575 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: which much more so than a lot a lot of 576 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: other state actors. And I don't think you have any 577 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: worries abut them shooting down your aircraft. But it's an 578 00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 2: interesting development that like yeah, will fundamentally challenge the way 579 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: that states are able to squash non state arm groups 580 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 2: going forward. 581 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, and if we if we figure out where they 582 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 4: got them from and that becomes public. Well you'll you'll 583 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 4: see the next episode called We found Out where the 584 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 4: mad Pads are from. 585 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in unlikelihood to no one's interested to 586 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: know to like announce where these are from. And I 587 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 2: don't think you know the ones in in Meanmar. It's 588 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: not inconceivable that they came either directly or indirectly from China. Yeah, 589 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: certainly that that would be the most feasible. But seeing 590 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,719 Speaker 2: them elsewhere it's fascinating, Like it's you know, if somebody 591 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 2: has like either reverse engineered these are there's a large 592 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 2: NAWORITHM available on the black market, like that would be 593 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: a sea change in the way conflict happened, right, Like, 594 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: you know, it's rare. Right now, it's able to bomb 595 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 2: Palestine with complete impunity. If non state arm groups had 596 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: access to manpads there that that maybe wouldn't be the case. 597 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's a change. It's a change in the 598 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 2: way the world goes to war. I think it's always interesting. 599 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: It's always interesting, Like for a podcast that was built 600 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 2: on speculative fiction about future collapses, like this certainly is 601 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 2: something that challenges some monopoly of the state. So yeah, 602 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 2: it's something to keep an eye on. I will attach 603 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 2: in the notes the Gorilla TV video of the Beiractars 604 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: being shut down. Please enjoyed the soundtrack, Yeah, it's banger. 605 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 2: And we'll also include some links to those videos of 606 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: the Kurne National Liberation Army with their man pads. If 607 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 2: you're a manpads understander, you know you know where to 608 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: find me. It's all over the internet. 609 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. With that, I will leave you have a great weekend. 610 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 3: Don't fly your cessnas. 611 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 612 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visitor website cool 613 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 614 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to Potts. You can 615 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at 616 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.