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Speaker 1: Daniel, did you want to ask an alien related question?

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Speaker 1: Or are you good?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. The answer to that is always yes.

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Speaker 3: Green is the answer green?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Katie. My question is what color are alien nipples?

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Speaker 4: M you know what, I've always imagined them as lavender.

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Speaker 4: Isn't that funny?

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Speaker 2: Maybe they also taste like lavender?

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Speaker 3: You hey, you know what.

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Speaker 4: We're getting into some real strange territory here, right.

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Speaker 2: That's a little taste of the conversation we have on

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Speaker 2: today's episode. It's not about aliens, mostly though it is

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Speaker 2: a little bit, And it's not about nipples mostly again,

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Speaker 2: though it is a little bit. It's about babies. How

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Speaker 2: many babies should you have? Some critters have lots of

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Speaker 2: babies and hope a few survive. Others have just a

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Speaker 2: few babies and take extra special care of them. What's

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Speaker 2: the best strategy evolutionarily? Why do some critics choose one

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Speaker 2: or the other? Does biology make any sense at all?

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Speaker 2: Or does it just depend We'll dig into that on

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Speaker 2: today's episode of Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Reproductive Universe.

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Speaker 1: So on today's show, we're talking about the birds and

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Speaker 1: the bees. So decide ahead of time if you think

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Speaker 1: that's an appropriate topic for your children. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I have

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Speaker 2: two kids so that neither of them have to be

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Speaker 2: the middle child.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Hi, I'm Kelly wider Smith. I am a parasitologist.

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Speaker 1: I have two kids because that's all I could handle.

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Speaker 4: I'm Katie Golden. I host a podcast called Creature Feature.

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Speaker 4: I have a dog so that she doesn't have to

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Speaker 4: be a middle child.

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Speaker 1: Katie, it's so great to have you on the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 4: I too love parasites, by the way, so we've got

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Speaker 4: that in common.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's the most important thing to have in common,

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was what got me so into biology. Is

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Speaker 4: a class I took. The official title of the class

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Speaker 4: was like about mimicry, but the professor who ran the

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Speaker 4: class was like so interested in parasites.

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Speaker 3: That was basically all we talked about.

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Speaker 4: And it's like he made the right call because that

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Speaker 4: was super interesting, and it's like I love hearing about

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Speaker 4: all these weird little freaks, and I gotta know more.

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Speaker 2: What if it was a parasite that affected the host

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Speaker 2: and made them interested in studying parasites.

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Speaker 3: I'm probably chock full of that.

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Speaker 1: Carl Zimmer's book Parasite Rex like changed my life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was going to be a parasitologist after reading.

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Speaker 4: That, seeing the little isopod that's the parasite for fish,

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Speaker 4: just like peeking out from a fishmouth, going like, hey

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Speaker 4: U that altered my brain chemistry forever.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. So I was talking to my friend

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Speaker 1: Stacy Farina the other day and so the story with

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Speaker 1: that isopod goes that it like eats the fish's tongue

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Speaker 1: and replaces the tongue, and she studies fish like skeletal stuff,

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Speaker 1: and she was like, you know, I've looked at a

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Speaker 1: bunch of them and the tongue is still there. Guys, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what So I think they're actually just like clinging to

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Speaker 1: the tongue and they're eating stuff, but they haven't really

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Speaker 1: eaten the tongue, which I think is part of like

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Speaker 1: what the pop side.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's yeah, it's like the idea that they're now

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Speaker 4: acting as the tongue. I thought they fed off of

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Speaker 4: the blood supply, so they may cause some atrophying of

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Speaker 4: the tongue, but it's not so much that they eat

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Speaker 4: the whole tongue and then replace it. It's that they're

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Speaker 4: stealing nutrients from the fish, and then when they leave

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Speaker 4: the fish, usually the fish doesn't survive because it's basically

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Speaker 4: mangled its tongue to the point where it can't use

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Speaker 4: it as much anymore. That's my understanding. But also I

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Speaker 4: think we have a fairly poor understanding of them because

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Speaker 4: it's not every day that you find these little guy

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Speaker 4: because you'd have to just like open up a bunch

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Speaker 4: of fish mouths of like, let me see inside your

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Speaker 4: mouth what you got in there?

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Speaker 1: You know all the best stories, Katie, I look in

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Speaker 1: a lot of fish mouths.

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Speaker 2: And that's why we invited Katie on the podcast today

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Speaker 2: to talk to us about babies.

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Speaker 4: Yes, which hard to segue from fish mouths to babies.

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Speaker 2: It's really hard to keep you guys on track. But

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Speaker 2: I'm doing my best here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, what if we get the chance to

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Speaker 1: talk about parasites, we will, But pulling back. So the

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Speaker 1: reason we're talking about babies today is because we had

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Speaker 1: a question from a listener, Nathan Ryan. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: know about the benefits of having lots of babies relative

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Speaker 1: to the benefits of just having a few, and so

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Speaker 1: he was like, why would you ever have just a

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Speaker 1: few when you could just flood the environment with babies?

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Speaker 1: And ecological theory has a lot of ideas about that,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought today we would talk about how

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Speaker 1: many babies should you have?

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Kelly for taking us back on on track

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Speaker 2: and away from parasites, as difficult as that is for you.

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Speaker 2: I love this question because in his email he specifically

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Speaker 2: mentions the two kinds of strategies are strategy and case strategy,

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Speaker 2: which describe having lots or few babies. That's really cool

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Speaker 2: because I'm excited whenever I see a theory in biology.

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Speaker 2: What it's not just descriptive like naming the parts of

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Speaker 2: the flower, but building a mathematical model to understand the

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Speaker 2: dynamics and how it all works. See, even underneath biology

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Speaker 2: there has to be math. So we're going to dig

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Speaker 2: into this question by walking through a bunch of examples

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Speaker 2: of extremes lots of babies, few babies, and then thinking

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Speaker 2: about whether the current theory about our in case strategists

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Speaker 2: is actually working or not.

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Speaker 4: This is such a good question in both personal lives

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Speaker 4: and in olationary biology.

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Speaker 2: Do you think Nathan is considering whether to have like

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Speaker 2: two or like fifty kids.

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Speaker 1: You better be considering whether he wants two or fifty wives.

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Speaker 1: If he's going to have that many kids. That's a

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Speaker 1: complicated question.

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Speaker 2: Well he could be you never know, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, that's a good point.

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Speaker 2: What do you think is the maximum number of kids

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Speaker 2: any individual human has ever had?

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Speaker 3: Mm?

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Speaker 2: Genghis Khan.

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Speaker 4: You know, I wouldn't be surprised if some of those

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Speaker 4: warlords just like did get around enough to have like

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Speaker 4: one hundred kids, not by one person.

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Speaker 3: That would be not possible, right, We all have limits,

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of that though, is probably them

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Speaker 4: thinking they have one hundred kids, or it's like those

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Speaker 4: are my kids too? And got news for you, buddy,

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Speaker 4: Probably not.

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Speaker 1: You don't always know. That's one of the benefits of

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Speaker 1: being the woman.

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Speaker 3: You can be sure usually in most circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I remember reading that there was a woman in

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Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds who gave birth to sixty nine children.

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Speaker 3: How would that even work?

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Speaker 2: Because it's sixteen pairs of twins, seven sets of triplets,

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Speaker 2: and four sets of.

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Speaker 3: Quadruplets and she lived through all of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And sixty seven of the sixty nine survived. But

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Speaker 2: this is from the seventeen hundreds, and it's sort of

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Speaker 2: like story and not like, yeah, well documented.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be intense.

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Speaker 4: I have a hard time believing that, maybe just because

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Speaker 4: I simply don't want to believe it like that.

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Speaker 1: It boggles the mind, it does. Yeah, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I want to believe it either. But let's jump

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Speaker 1: into the main episode then. So we thought that first,

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Speaker 1: if you're thinking about how many babies you should have,

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Speaker 1: then you should think about how much energy it's going

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Speaker 1: to take for each one of those babies from you.

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Speaker 1: So how much energy is it going to take to

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Speaker 1: protect and provision the young? And actually, we're not really

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Speaker 1: talking about humans at all today. We're talking about non

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Speaker 1: human animals. And so let's take a little walk through

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Speaker 1: who does the care in different animals And so I'll

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Speaker 1: start with fish. Actually, and fish, the males do a

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Speaker 1: lot of the care. And you know, this is possible

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Speaker 1: because most of the time eggs are put out into

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Speaker 1: the environment and fertilization happens externally, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: either one of them could be the one who splits.

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Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, it's been the males who tend

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Speaker 1: to so, for example small mouth bass and large mouth bass.

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Speaker 1: The males will sort of use their fins to clear

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Speaker 1: out an area, like a little depression where a nest

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Speaker 1: will be, and then a female comes by, and if

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Speaker 1: she decides the male sexy enough, she'll deposit some eggs,

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Speaker 1: and then the male will deposit his sperm, and then

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Speaker 1: it's his job to stay there and use his fins

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Speaker 1: to aerate the eggs and make sure there's fresh water

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Speaker 1: passing over them that through diffusion can like get into

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Speaker 1: the eggs to keep those guys alive, and then also

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Speaker 1: make sure that no predators eat those eggs, because they're

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Speaker 1: amazing little balls of energy that would be great for

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Speaker 1: like little minnows or crayfish. And so he's got to

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Speaker 1: like defend the nest.

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Speaker 2: Tasty little omelet of babies right there.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, pre made, and so I think

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Speaker 1: it's pretty energetically expensive. They don't tend to eat, well,

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Speaker 1: this is happening, and it's sort of not clear why,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it's because they can't control themselves and they

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Speaker 1: might eat the eggs. So anyway, they tend to not eat.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of work, but the males are doing

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Speaker 1: most of the care, and so the eggs hatch, they

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Speaker 1: swim up, and when they swim away, the male's job

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Speaker 1: for the most part is done. He stays with them

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Speaker 1: for a little while, but then they go off on

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Speaker 1: their own. That's quite different than what happens with birds,

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Speaker 1: right Katie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean birds have a lot of different strategies.

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Speaker 4: You have a lot of bird species where it's the

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Speaker 4: female taking care of the offspring because she lays the eggs,

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Speaker 4: and she of course has to keep the eggs warm

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Speaker 4: under her body, so she stays with the nest. But

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Speaker 4: you also have a lot of species of birds who

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Speaker 4: work together, so you have a pair of parents, particularly

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Speaker 4: in harsher environments, so sea birds in particular penguins obviously

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Speaker 4: in their very harsh Antarctic environments. There are other species

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Speaker 4: of penguins that live in warmer environments, but an amazing

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Speaker 4: example is great hornbills. So they are a species of

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Speaker 4: bird that go to extreme lengths to protect their eggs.

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Speaker 4: The males actually will seal the females into a hollow

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Speaker 4: inside a tree using his own feces, in her feces

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Speaker 4: in a bit of mud to create sort of a

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Speaker 4: plaster beautiful oh biology. Yeah, and then they leave a

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Speaker 4: tiny hole and the male will go out and very

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Speaker 4: devotedly bring back food for the female and then for

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Speaker 4: the chicks once they hatch. And the reason that there's

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Speaker 4: so much care in these situations of both parents working

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Speaker 4: together is environmental stressors. So for the hornbills, it's in

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Speaker 4: the places that they live in Southeast Asia. In these forests,

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Speaker 4: there's a ton of predatory snakes who eat eggs, eat chicks,

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Speaker 4: so so many arboreal snakes that creating sort of a

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Speaker 4: sealed off, you know, bunker for the female and the

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Speaker 4: eggs is really important. For seabirds, the there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of kleptive parasites. Those are other birds that want to

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Speaker 4: steal resources, including eggs, including eating chicks. It's just a

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Speaker 4: very very harsh environment, particularly the ones that live in

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Speaker 4: cold environments. So and also finding food is difficult. They

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Speaker 4: have to leave the colony, go out to sea, go fishing,

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Speaker 4: and so both parents need to kind of like switch

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Speaker 4: off and alternate in terms of like taking care of.

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Speaker 3: The egg, taking care of the chicks. If they didn't.

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Speaker 4: Both put all of their effort into it, most likely

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Speaker 4: their chicks wouldn't survive. And also just an interesting note.

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Speaker 4: In species of birds where they're both working together as

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Speaker 4: a pair, usually there's not as much sexual dimorphism, meaning

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Speaker 4: like both of the male and the female look very similar. Also,

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Speaker 4: when they're mating, both of them will often do some

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Speaker 4: kind of mating display and try to impress the other

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Speaker 4: mate equally because they're both putting in so much effort

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Speaker 4: into the offspring, they're both equally trying to assess whether

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Speaker 4: their mate is going to be good wears. In a

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Speaker 4: lot of other species, where the female is the one

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Speaker 4: doing most of the child rearing, it's the male that's

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Speaker 4: trying to impress her because she's the one putting all

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Speaker 4: of this investment into the offspring, Whereas the male is

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Speaker 4: just kind of like going around sewing as wild out,

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Speaker 4: so for him, he doesn't need to be as cheesy,

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Speaker 4: where as the female needs to be really cheesy.

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Speaker 2: So in this scenario where the female gets sealed in

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Speaker 2: with the eggs and cares for them, do you think

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Speaker 2: she's like into that or is she like tracked in

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Speaker 2: like a slave in his like weird poo palace that

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Speaker 2: he builds for her.

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Speaker 3: She's into it.

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Speaker 4: She can actually kind of kool aid man break out

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Speaker 4: anytime she wants, but she's in there, and as long

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Speaker 4: as the male comes and like feeds her, she will

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Speaker 4: stay there with the eggs take care of them. If

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Speaker 4: the male stops feeding her, I think she will break

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Speaker 4: out and leave the eggs. And so there's a mutually

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Speaker 4: bit official investment there, like the male coming back to

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Speaker 4: feed her. Usually the male would only not come back

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Speaker 4: if he came to some devastating ends. So the female

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Speaker 4: completely cooperates and that she actually helps build the wall

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Speaker 4: as well. So it's not like not a casko of

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Speaker 4: a mantiato, but with porn bills.

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Speaker 2: How would you have felt, Kelly, if you've been sealed

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Speaker 2: into a room with your babies by your husband's poop.

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Speaker 1: I mean, our house is pretty messy when we first

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Speaker 1: had our kids. I don't know how different that was,

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Speaker 1: and the diapers were piling up. I guess it wasn't

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Speaker 1: zac species, It's right. I think I would have left,

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Speaker 1: even with young people in the houses.

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Speaker 4: But he's getting you uber eats like all the time,

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Speaker 4: so that's an important aspect of it.

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Speaker 2: But so the big picture here is that we're seeing

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Speaker 2: lots of different kinds of scenarios, different strategies in different scenarios,

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Speaker 2: and so the idea is that they're responding to the

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Speaker 2: different situations they're in by developing these different strategies.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 4: Also when you have major differences among different types of animals,

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Speaker 4: so like, for instance, mammals, usually it's the female doing

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Speaker 4: most of the caring for young and a big reason

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Speaker 4: for that is lactation. So like mammals, mammary glands, mammals

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Speaker 4: have this ability to lactate and feed their offspring and

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Speaker 4: this is how they care for very young babies and

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Speaker 4: so usually not always, this means that the female is

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Speaker 4: the one doing the primary caregiving for the offspring. You

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Speaker 4: do see this, of course in other types of animals,

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Speaker 4: so like there's a type of limbless worm like amphibian

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Speaker 4: called the sicilian, which actually has something akin to malk

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Speaker 4: Some species have this like viscous fluid that it produces

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Speaker 4: from its kloeca that the offspring feed from. Like some

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Speaker 4: species they actually allow their offspring to sort of chew

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Speaker 4: on some like thick nutritional skin that they have a

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Speaker 4: little excess mom jerky. And in these situations, the mom

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Speaker 4: actually offers parental care to the offspring. But also in mammals,

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Speaker 4: another exception is that there's a lot of very social

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Speaker 4: species of animals where there's both male and female parenting.

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Speaker 4: I mean humans is an example. There's also alloparenting, which

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Speaker 4: is when either loosely related or non related individuals take

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Speaker 4: care of the offspring that is not directly theirs. That's

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Speaker 4: like common in a lot of different mammalian species, and

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Speaker 4: that culminates into a version of mammals that actually becomes

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Speaker 4: somewhat more insect like like naked mole rats who have

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Speaker 4: a use social system where they have a queen who reproduces,

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Speaker 4: and everyone else is basically facilitating the queen's reproduction. So

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Speaker 4: that's like an extreme example of mammals going more towards

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Speaker 4: like a b ant colony type model.

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Speaker 2: I've heard this story. I think it may be apocryphal,

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Speaker 2: and I want to ask you that in humans, it's possible,

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Speaker 2: though difficult, for males to lactate given the right circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Is that true or not?

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Speaker 3: It's true.

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Speaker 4: It's basically like hormones will determine lactation, So if some

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Speaker 4: men naturally will produce, some hormones that may actually cause

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Speaker 4: them to do a little bit of lactation. And actually,

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Speaker 4: if someone takes hormones, you can induce lactation, and so

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Speaker 4: you know, yeah, I mean honestly, like the differences between say,

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Speaker 4: like male and female phenotypes in humans is so guided

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Speaker 4: by hormones that when those are either you know, you

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Speaker 4: have atypical levels of them, or you introduce synthetic hormones,

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Speaker 4: so you can completely alter the phenotypic representation that includes

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Speaker 4: functions like lactation.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean that males have mammary glands they're just.

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Speaker 4: Not active, yes, yes, essentially, yeah, mind blown.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got nipples.

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Speaker 2: You've got I was aware of the nipples. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Just making sure.

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Speaker 2: Let's give Daniel a tour here.

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Speaker 3: Of these things.

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Speaker 4: Just call them my chest buttons. Yeah, the memory glands

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Speaker 4: and then are very underdeveloped. But there are like cases

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Speaker 4: with like genetic differences where some men will have larger

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Speaker 4: breasts and larger memory glands and some men can lactate,

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Speaker 4: and yeah, that can totally happen, but you know it's

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Speaker 4: not necessarily going to be enough maybe to feed a baby.

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Speaker 4: But hey, you know what, get whatever help you can

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Speaker 4: is what I say, every drop probably counts.

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Speaker 2: No, try, gentlemen out there. She's not the only one

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Speaker 2: who has to wake up in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: night to feed the baby.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. Humping is a great technology. Yes, so

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Speaker 1: when birds they make that like crop milk, do the

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Speaker 1: males do that? Tours, that's something that just the females do.

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Speaker 4: Males can also make crop milk. I think it depends

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Speaker 4: on the species, but yes, you do have a mutual

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Speaker 4: ability a lot of species to make crop milk that

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Speaker 4: is not necessarily tied to you know, just the females,

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Speaker 4: but some animals do, like the sicilian that I mentioned,

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Speaker 4: like that can be just the female. And probably the

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Speaker 4: explanation for that is in a lot of species, basically,

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Speaker 4: unless you're an asexually producing animal, it's the female who's

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Speaker 4: going to be giving birth to the offspring. Or unless

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Speaker 4: you are a sea horse, in which case there's like

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Speaker 4: basically two birds right where the female lays the eggs

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Speaker 4: and does develop inside the males and then he gives

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Speaker 4: birth to the live offspring. So the reason that you

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Speaker 4: will often have cases where once an animal develops sort

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Speaker 4: of a tool for offering nutritional aid to their offspring

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Speaker 4: that it will be female is because usually it's the

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Speaker 4: female who gives birth to the offspring.

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Speaker 1: Now, insects are heroes of mine because they don't do

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Speaker 1: a lot of parental care. Now, Katy, can you tell

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Speaker 1: us about those?

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Speaker 4: So later we're going to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 4: R and K selection and just very briefly, our selection

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Speaker 4: being you have a ton of offspring, you know, a

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Speaker 4: bunch of cheaply made offspring, and K selection being you

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Speaker 4: have maybe one or two really high quality offspring. It's

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Speaker 4: very much an over generalization, but we'll get into the

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Speaker 4: details later, but insects are sort of like the absolute

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Speaker 4: champions of our selection, popping out enormous numbers of babies

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Speaker 4: and just highly expendable babies.

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Speaker 2: Either love them or you have lots of them, right,

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Speaker 2: these are the two options.

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Speaker 4: Well, essentially, it's a little more complicated than that, but yes,

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Speaker 4: that is like sort of the basic idea behind it,

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Speaker 4: and parental care is really rare in both insects and arthropods.

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Speaker 4: So there are some notable exceptions such as like, usually

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Speaker 4: it's the female again for the reason that I said,

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Speaker 4: which is the female that lays eggs or gives birth

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Speaker 4: to offspring, so scorpions will carry their young on their back.

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Speaker 4: Centipedes will kind of curl up in this cute little

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Speaker 4: nest like cradle for her offspring, which it's very adorable.

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Speaker 4: There are even types of spiders like the desert spider

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Speaker 4: who basically once she lays her eggs, she starts to

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Speaker 4: digest her own insides and then will regurgitate her own

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Speaker 4: juices for her offspring to feed on. And she does

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Speaker 4: not survive this process. She turns herself into like a

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Speaker 4: mom smoothie and then.

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Speaker 3: Allows her offspring to eat her.

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Speaker 4: It's called matrophagi eating one's mother, and the babies will

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Speaker 4: eat like ninety five percent of her biomouse.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's not cool. There's no petrophage or why

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Speaker 1: are there no dad's getting.

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Speaker 4: Eat there's probably some dads getting eaten, but yeah. The

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Speaker 4: reason that it's usually matrophagi is because of the fact

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Speaker 4: that usually it's the mother that gives birth or lays

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Speaker 4: the eggs.

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Speaker 3: But there are some very rare.

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Speaker 4: Examples of both the mother and the father and insects

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Speaker 4: taking care of their offspring. The only example I can

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Speaker 4: think of there may be more, but this one is

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Speaker 4: also really cool is burying beetles. So these are beetles

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Speaker 4: that will find the carcass of some small animal and

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Speaker 4: then we'll bury it. And the reason they do this

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Speaker 4: is so that they can lay their eggs on a

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Speaker 4: source of food, so they bury it to keep it

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Speaker 4: away from other competitors, and then they lay their offspring

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Speaker 4: in this sort of like little den of rotting meat.

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Speaker 4: And then they actually will stay. Both the mother and

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Speaker 4: the father bearing beetle will stay and protect their offspring,

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Speaker 4: so they'll maintain the larder, make sure they have plenty

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Speaker 4: to eat, and then they'll fight off competition and predators

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Speaker 4: until the larva pupate into their more adult forms.

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Speaker 3: So that's super rare.

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Speaker 4: It just doesn't happen very frequently in insects or in

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Speaker 4: arthropods because their usual techniques just have a huge amount

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Speaker 4: of offspring, and statistically a lot of them are gonna

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Speaker 4: make it.

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Speaker 1: So I think any of the moms or dads out

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Speaker 1: there are probably feeling a little bit better about what

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Speaker 1: we went through when our kids were young right now

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Speaker 1: after hearing about the insect examples. But let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and take a break, and when we get back we'll

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Speaker 1: talk a bit more. About the costs associated with having babies,

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Speaker 1: and we're back. So we've gone through and we've talked

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Speaker 1: about the different in ways that the responsibility of taking

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Speaker 1: care of the kids tends to be divided up in

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Speaker 1: the animal kingdom. So now we're going to dig into

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Speaker 1: some examples of it being costly to have offspring. And

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Speaker 1: I think for most of us who have had kids

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Speaker 1: were like, yes, of course it's costly to have offspring.

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Speaker 1: Like a bunch of us moms lost weight while we

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Speaker 1: were breastfeeding because it's calorically expensive and you're not sleeping,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's obviously costly. But that's true for animals,

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Speaker 1: not just humans. And there are some really nice examples

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Speaker 1: of this. So, for example, David Lack did this long

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Speaker 1: term study of these birds called great tits Paris major

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Speaker 1: and confession, I didn't realize this was a bird species

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Speaker 1: the first time I heard about these and a person

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Speaker 1: who ended up being my PhD advisor started talking to

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Speaker 1: me about great tits and I just had a like

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Speaker 1: deer in the headlights moment, and it took me a second.

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Speaker 1: He said something about eggs and I was like, ah,

441
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 1: I think we're talking about birds or fish. And eventually.

442
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 4: The first time I heard about great tits was when

443
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 4: I was on a bird watching expedition with the bunch

444
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 4: of senior citizens when I was in high school, and

445
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 4: this sweet little old lady leaned over to me and says,

446
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 4: now you have younger ears, so see if you can

447
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 4: hear some great tits.

448
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 1: That doesn't make any sense to.

449
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,120
Speaker 2: Place sound life, Yeah.

450
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, keep your eyes peeled for great tits. Just coming

451
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 4: from this octagenarian. It was a wonderful moment.

452
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: She's probably seen a lot, she knows right, it's.

453
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 3: Nothing you ain't seen before.

454
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: Maybe we should put a little warning at the top

455
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 1: of this episode.

456
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: But more broadly, like, we're hearing these examples about like

457
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 2: different strategies, males taking care of the babies, females taking

458
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 2: care of the babies. What do we learn sort of

459
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 2: broadly from these examples, Like are there obvious trends here

460
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: where people respond in certain ways to certain circumstances or

461
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: is it just like a scattering of examples And the

462
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: answer is it all depends.

463
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 4: There are patterns, for sure. There have been attempts to

464
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,639
Speaker 4: kind of put the patterns into much more simple mathematical equations,

465
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 4: which sometimes work but then sometimes they fail. But in

466
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 4: general there are patterns. But because there are so many

467
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 4: essentially factors that are a component in these evolutionary quote

468
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 4: unquote choices, it can be difficult to see the pattern

469
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 4: from the noise, but they do exist, and there have

470
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 4: been some like observable patterns that have been found that

471
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 4: can kind of help sway the decision in terms of

472
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 4: like what type of offspring strategy species end up falling into, right, Kelly.

473
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we are essentially making the argument that it

474
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: depends today, which Daniel will not be surprised to hear.

475
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: So I found this quote from a textbook that I

476
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 1: used in grad school, and it's the evolution of care

477
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: behavior is complex, and we are still far from fully

478
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: understanding which factors really influence the evolution of care in

479
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: both males and females. Models are arguments like the ones

480
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: presented above in this textbook may also prove too simple

481
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: because they generally consider just a few factors at a time.

482
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: So we're talking today some of the different solutions that

483
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: evolution has landed on and some of the different factors

484
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: that influence the decisions that end up getting made over

485
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: evolutionary time. But it really does depend Life.

486
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: Is messy and lots of factors must come into play,

487
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: predation and environment and variability and all sorts of crazy stuff.

488
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: It'd be amazing if you could boil it down to

489
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: just a few variables like you can in physics. I

490
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 2: don't know why physics ever works, frankly.

491
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're going to talk about a lot of variability,

492
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: and then we're going to narrow down a little bit

493
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: on one attempt to sort of summarize what we see

494
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: and why we see it. And then we're going to

495
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: talk about how that sort of way of summarizing things

496
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: fell apart, and how now we're back to trying to

497
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: find more complicated models that include more variable.

498
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: All right, now I'm ready to talk about great tits.

499
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 1: That's great.

500
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 4: It's always good to get into the math before we

501
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 4: start talking about great that's right.

502
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: That's right. That's how most of these conversations work out.

503
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: So there's this researcher in England. Great tits are these

504
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: tiny little birds, and there's this population that's been monitored

505
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: for decades and all of the birds, or as many

506
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: as possible, are caught every year they're banded. And then

507
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: you look to see who's coming back year after year.

508
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: These birds tend to lay one set at one clutch

509
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: of eggs once a year, and the army of graduate

510
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 1: students who were working on this for decades would go

511
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: out and they would count how many eggs. They would

512
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: weigh the birds soon after they hatched, and then they'd

513
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: measure survival by determining who came back. And they were

514
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: looking at a large enough area that I think they

515
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: decided that, you know, the birds who flew to join

516
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,440
Speaker 1: a different population. That was a negligible number of birds,

517
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 1: so they pretty much were keeping track of everybody. And

518
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: they noticed that these birds usually lay eight or nine eggs,

519
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: and that the more eggs there were in a nest,

520
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: the smaller the offspring would be. And you could test

521
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: this by moving eggs between nests and looking to see

522
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: if you like, make the parents feed more offspring, What

523
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 1: does that do to the size of the birds and

524
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: the parents are out from like dusk to dawn, gone

525
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: to dusk, that would be it from done to dusk.

526
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: Trying depending on how you look at it.

527
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they depends whether drinking, yeah.

528
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: Right, drinking caterpillar juice or something yummy. And they found

529
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: that the more birds they had to feed, the smaller

530
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: the birds were, and then if you look at those

531
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: small birds, they're less likely to survive and show up

532
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: again in the population as adults. So if you have

533
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: too many babies, those babies don't seem to make it,

534
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: and you've expended all of that energy for nothing. But

535
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: they did some like mathematical modeling and moving some eggs around,

536
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: and they ended up deciding like, okay, but it looks

537
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: like the birds are producing fewer eggs than we think

538
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 1: that they could be producing optimally every year that they

539
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: could feed enough and enough of them could come back

540
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: in the future. Why aren't they making more eggs? And

541
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: the idea here was that you're not just trying to

542
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: maximize the number of eggs that you're producing in one year.

543
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 1: You're thinking about your lifetime reproductive success. So if you

544
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: go all out and you raise as many eggs this

545
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: year as you can, probably gonna exhaust yourself and not

546
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: be able to survive until the next year so that

547
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 1: you can have more offspring. And to be honest, because

548
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: ecology is complicated, as far as I know, they didn't

549
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: find good evidence for that in this system, but they

550
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 1: have found evidence for that in other systems, so like

551
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: in European kestrels, so these are birds that are predators

552
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 1: and they pick off little mammals. They found that if

553
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 1: you put extra eggs in a nest and like those

554
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 1: adults had to feed more babies, the babies were less

555
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: likely to survive to adults, and the adults who had

556
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: more babies in their nest were less likely to show

557
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: up the next year, so they were less likely to

558
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: survive the winter.

559
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 4: It just sounds though, like they instead of like showing up.

560
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 4: I know what you mean is their survival rates, but

561
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 4: it does kind of sound like when you gave them

562
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 4: too many kids.

563
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: They're like, that's it. I'm out, I'm leaving done.

564
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: That's right, I'm gonna go become a dancer. I'm done.

565
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: But you know this is ecology, right, So the answer

566
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: has to be it depends. And even though you feel

567
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: like you have a nice model, nice theory for understanding

568
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: how this stuff works, if you look in a different system,

569
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: you don't always find support. So David Resnick studies guppies.

570
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: These are these tiny little fish that you find in Trinidad,

571
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: and he took them into I think this was a

572
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: lab study, and he compared the females who were paired

573
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: with a male and could mate to females who didn't

574
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: have a male. And the idea was supposed to be

575
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: that the females who had to produce young would end

576
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: up weighing less because it's energetically expensive than the females

577
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: who didn't have to produce young. But they didn't find

578
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: that the females who had to produce babies just ate more.

579
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: That's what I did for sure, and so they ended

580
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: up being in just as good shape. And so you know,

581
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff can depend on like how many

582
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: resources are available in the environment. Like if you're feeding

583
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: baby chicks, but it's a year where there's just loads

584
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: of insects, maybe it's one of those years where the

585
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: cicadas come out of the ground and there's just food everywhere,

586
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: then you know you don't have as many trade offs.

587
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: So if you can just sit on the couch and

588
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: eat Ben and Jerry's, then you should have lots of kids.

589
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: And so they quote from earlier is about how there's

590
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: lots of other factors to consider.

591
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 2: Flavors of Ben and Jerry's are available. This kind of stuff.

592
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: People often ask like can I feed, say, wild birds,

593
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 4: and the answers It depends again because one of the

594
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 4: problems if you feed wild birds too much, you actually

595
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 4: give them a false sense of security in terms of like, oh,

596
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 4: there's a lot of plenty, I can have a lot

597
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 4: of babies, and then they end up having more babies earlier,

598
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 4: and then they might miss key points in terms of

599
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 4: like some species maybe time their offspring to the emergence

600
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 4: of certain insects, right, like they follow the breeding cycle

601
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: of caterpillars or other insects, and then they may if

602
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 4: you give them too many resources artificially, they may actually

603
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 4: have more offspring earlier, and then when they migrate, right,

604
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 4: they don't stay in your backyard forever. Then they migrate,

605
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 4: and then they don't actually have the resources that they

606
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: kind of were led to believe they would have. It

607
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 4: can actually cause a population crash. So like there's a

608
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: lot of like weird unexpected consequences is where a lot

609
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 4: of species have this kind of like timing system, and

610
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 4: they can also kind of they can change their breeding

611
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 4: behavior based on the stress and the resources that they

612
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 4: have available to them.

613
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 2: What if you feed wild birds, but you do it consistently.

614
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: You don't just like yanke it away from them.

615
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 4: Well, it depends, like if they migrate, then you'd have

616
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 4: to follow them. It's like, all right, where are you going?

617
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: Get on a plane?

618
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: You tag them and migrate with them.

619
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 4: And if you're just feeding birds consistently and they stay

620
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 4: in your backyard, that's how we got chickens.

621
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: That's not so bad, that's delicious.

622
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 1: You can also transmit diseases at feeders, Yeah, that's true.

623
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: It had been like fifteen minutes since we had talked

624
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: about parasites, so I had to pull that back.

625
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 4: When you have a really crowded public feeder, you've got

626
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 4: a lot of birds, you know, rubbing up against each other,

627
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: so then they can transfer diseases. So like, especially when

628
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 4: there's like avian flu going around, it's probably not a

629
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 4: good time to take in those feeders.

630
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: We had a bird feeder our backyard and there was

631
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: a blue jay in the neighborhood and who really liked

632
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: like the bigger seeds. I think it was the some

633
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: flower seeds. He was also a bully, so he would

634
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: like chase away all the other birds and then he

635
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: would sift through and just like throwing seeds left and

636
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: right to get to the some flower seeds and gobble

637
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: them up, but making a mess everywhere, and all the

638
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: other birds were scared. We had to like try to

639
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: chase this guy away.

640
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have a family member like that. We stopped

641
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: inviting them to say. So, we've talked about a variety

642
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: of different ways that nature has sort of solved the

643
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: problem of who takes care of the offspring? How many

644
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: offspring do you have? But sometimes it's complicated, So let's

645
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: move on to this idea of R and K strategists.

646
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: So this idea was meant to sort of come up

647
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: with a theory that would explain why sometimes you get

648
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: organisms species that make loads of offspring and then other

649
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: times you get species that just make a few offspring.

650
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: So what kind of conditions would promote doing something crazy

651
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: like having thousands of offspring? So the idea here is

652
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: that maybe you have some environments that are just changing

653
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: all the time. They're unpredictable. Maybe like periodically fires come

654
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: through and they just sort of devastate the environment. And

655
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: so it's not necessarily that like resources are limited. It's

656
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: just every once in a while something catastrophic happens and

657
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: in that case, as the theory went, the idea is

658
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: that you should produce loads of offspring, and you should

659
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: start producing these offspring as young as you can, so

660
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: that you can get as many chances at making offspring

661
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: as possible, and that you can fill any new niche

662
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: that opens up by having all of these new offspring. Whereas,

663
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: if you're in an environment where there's a set number

664
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: of resources, that environment is pretty stable, it's pretty predictable,

665
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: then you should invest in making a few number of

666
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: offspring that are in really great shape and they're really

667
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: good competitors because there's going to be a lot of

668
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: competition for those resources since everybody's sort of at the

669
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: limits of what the environment can handle in terms of

670
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: the amount of resources that are available there for everybody.

671
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 2: Does that make sense to you? I mean, I try

672
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: to imagine myself as a parent in this circumstance, and

673
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: like it seems like that makes sense under the assumption

674
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 2: that you can do nothing to help your kids survive, Right,

675
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 2: you should just have lots of them because it's all random.

676
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: But I'm imagining, like if I have kids in suburban

677
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 2: southern California where things are pretty stable, versus I have

678
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: kids in like post apocalyptic Mad Max scenario, Like, am

679
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 2: I going to pump out one hundred kids and then

680
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: just like let them run crazy free and hope they survive?

681
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: It feels to me like I'd still be better off

682
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 2: having few kids and trying to like navigate them through

683
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: the chaos.

684
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: Well, evolution has selected our species over time to be

685
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: really good at making a small number of offspring, and

686
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: you can use our intelligence to sort of help them

687
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: survive in this complicated environment. I would say that we

688
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have the ability at this point to make

689
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: as many offspring as it would take. To think of

690
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: yourself as an R strategist, what's your take on this, Katie.

691
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think it's kind of comes down

692
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 4: to probably very complicated statistical probabilities that I have no

693
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 4: way of kind of conceptualizing. But you know, it's sort

694
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: of like a I'm going to make a stock market comparison,

695
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 4: but I want to make it clear I don't know

696
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 4: anything about investment. But if you have like a really

697
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 4: risky market, right, like you diversify your portfolio in general, right,

698
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 4: Whereas maybe if you have it more stable market, It's like, man,

699
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 4: I know that everybody loves apple juice, so I'll keep

700
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 4: investing in apple juice. I don't mess around with the

701
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 4: stock market because I truly don't understand it.

702
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: I don't think apple juice is a growth industry. Katie's

703
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 2: not an investment. Don't take advice from Katie, folks.

704
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 4: If I drink enough, it's a growth industry for me.

705
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 4: But like, one thing is that you can think of

706
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 4: it in terms of like an individual's success, right, Like

707
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 4: I'm a parent, I can like make sure my child

708
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 4: reaches adulthood. But you can also look at it in

709
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 4: terms of just like the spread of a bunch of genes.

710
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 3: And there have been.

711
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 4: Some sort of like back and forth arguments about like

712
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 4: what matters more genes or phenotype, right, but in general,

713
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 4: like sometimes you may have a situation in which having

714
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 4: a ton of offspring and not taking care of them

715
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 4: but just leaving it up to chance is the best strategy,

716
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 4: even if, like you say, take care of your offspring,

717
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 4: because say there's a disease that comes around, Like, no

718
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 4: matter how good you take care of your offspring, a

719
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 4: disease that comes hit you, there's nothing you can do

720
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 4: about that.

721
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: But if you have fifty.

722
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 4: Thousand offspring and one or two of them have a

723
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 4: genetic mutation where they manage to avoid this like devastating disease.

724
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 4: Then your genes get passed on and it doesn't matter

725
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: that you were a terrible parent hypothetically, But of course

726
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 4: obviously we do have all kinds of parenting right in nature,

727
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 4: and so it does mean that there have been stable

728
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,880
Speaker 4: patterns of both our and case strategists being.

729
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: Able to survive.

730
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 4: But it's just that there isn't one single strategy that

731
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 4: always wins. The species that we see alive today have

732
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 4: not been raining the earth for the past, you know,

733
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: millions of years, Like, so many species have gone extinct

734
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 4: or have turned into a different species that survived to today.

735
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 4: So like there's a lot of strategies that were tried

736
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 4: and then then failed, and then a little different strategy

737
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 4: was tried and failed. So it's really just about cannas.

738
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: Species find an amount of stability for a certain chunk

739
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 4: of time, and then that lasts for some amount of time,

740
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 4: and there's no guarantee that any of the current survivors

741
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 4: now are going to last the next million years.

742
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that you talk about like good

743
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 2: parenting and bad parenting. It's funny to put these sort

744
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 2: of like moral labels on it, and we joke a

745
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: little bit, but you know, it makes me wonder if

746
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: you're the parent in a species where you just sort

747
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 2: of like make a lot of them and spraym into

748
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: the environment and ignore them, do you still love your

749
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: babies or is it just like not a bigger part

750
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: of your life.

751
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 3: Sometimes you eat them, sometimes you eat them, sometimes you

752
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: eat them.

753
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 2: You love them for dinner.

754
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 4: There are a lot of like amphibians and fish that

755
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 4: will sometimes eat some of their offspring just like it's

756
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 4: fine if I nibble on a few of them, right,

757
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: But again, it's not because they're cruel. It's because of

758
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 4: the trade off between your own personal survival and health

759
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 4: and being able to bear future offspring and your offspring

760
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 4: surviving in fact, like there are some species of animals

761
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: that will like fight to the death to protect their offspring,

762
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 4: Like I've seen elk try to stomp the dickens out

763
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 4: of a mountain lion to save her offspring. Whereas some

764
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 4: animals who have a higher fecundity, like they see a

765
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 4: predator and they're like, all right, I'm out because I

766
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 4: can have babies in the future.

767
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: Well, we have hit optimum dKu episode here because we've

768
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: talked about poop and cannibalism. But we're still going to

769
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: go ahead and do one more session even though we've

770
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: hit all the high points. So let's go ahead and

771
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: take a break, and when we come back we will

772
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: talk more about babies. Before the last break, Katie was

773
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: talking about variability and parental care, how some animals are

774
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: willing to risk their lives and some just aren't willing

775
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: to risk their lives for their babies. One of the

776
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: things that got me really excited about behavioral ecology was

777
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: that even within species, there's a lot of variability, and

778
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: trying to understand why some animals are great parents and

779
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: some are kind of miserable is just fascinating to me.

780
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: Like I studied small mouth bass for a while, and

781
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: after the ice would melt off the lakes in Wisconsin,

782
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: it was still absolutely frigid. We would jump in and

783
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: we would try to find every nest in this northern

784
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: Wisconsin lake and some of the males you would approach

785
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: their nest and you could see just like the sh

786
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: sho of them as they ran off and the minnows

787
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: would come in and they'd try to eat their eggs

788
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: and you just would never see that mail again. And

789
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 1: then there were other males who you'd be like trying

790
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: to figure out where the nest is, you haven't even

791
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: located it yet, and they would literally like torpedo you

792
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: in the face and knock your mask off and like,

793
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: you know, knock your snorkel out of your mouth, and

794
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 1: they would just keep like ramming into you. So even

795
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: within species, there's loads of differences, and I don't think

796
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: we understand very well what those differences are. Sometimes it

797
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: has to do with how big the males are. So like,

798
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: if a male is huge and all of the predators

799
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: in the lake have little mouths, then he can be

800
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: pretty sure nothing's going to be able to eat him,

801
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: so he might as well attack. Whereas if you're the

802
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: little guy, maybe you don't get gutsy until you grow

803
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: for a few more years, until you're big enough that

804
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: probably nothing can eat you. But there's loads of variability

805
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: even within species, which I think is just totally fascinating

806
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: and adorable.

807
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 4: I mean that reminds me of like sort of different

808
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: mating strategies where you have sort of sneaky males versus

809
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 4: large sort of job males, like in salmon and coho salmon,

810
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: like there's the jacks, which are the little guys, and

811
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 4: then the hook noses, i think based on the shape

812
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 4: of their face, which are the bigger ones. And the

813
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 4: little guys actually do a really good job of sneakily

814
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 4: mating with females, whereas the big guys they may have

815
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 4: a more like secure position in terms of not being

816
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 4: preyed upon, but they're less agile, and actually the jacks

817
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 4: tend to be more numerous because what happens is the

818
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 4: female will depositor eggs and the jack kind of like

819
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 4: zoom out there and puts the sperm on the eggs

820
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 4: and then zooms away right like an.

821
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: Egg assass and just like boop, like fertilized.

822
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's also like even a single individual can

823
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 4: change their strategy based on say, environmental stressors like kangaroos

824
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 4: and wallabies can basically control when they have offspring. It's

825
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: called embryonic diapause. So it's like when they freeze the

826
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 4: development of their embryo when they feel like stressed or

827
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 4: like the conditions aren't right, so they're controlling their fecundity.

828
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 4: There's also what we mentioned earlier about cannibalism, like eating

829
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 4: your eggs, eating your offspring when resources seem limited or

830
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 4: when you're stressed out, like bears will sometimes do that,

831
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 4: Like bears will eat their newly born offspring like black bears,

832
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 4: and it's like, well, why would they do that, Well,

833
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 4: if it's a weaker offspring, or if they're stressed out

834
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 4: and they feel like resources aren't good at that time,

835
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 4: they actually control whether or not they want to invest

836
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 4: in an offspring at that point.

837
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: Tough decisions. Our kids don't know how lucky they are

838
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 1: to have made it as far as they did that

839
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: we never snacked them right, even when things were scary.

840
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: They think it's terrible when parents eat their chocolate bunnies,

841
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 4: and they don't know it could be so much.

842
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 1: Worse, so much worse. I'm gonna have to tell my

843
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: kids that around here. Yeah, it'll be good. I'm a

844
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: great parent. So to get back to RNK strategists, so

845
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: we have kind of given some examples of different rn

846
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: K strategists over the course of this chat, Haiti mentioned

847
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: that insects are the classic R strategists and just like

848
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: a funny aside. I could never remember if the rs

849
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 1: and the k's, which one was the fast and lots

850
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: of babies and which one was the slow and just

851
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,439
Speaker 1: a few babies. And this morning, my really embarrassing way

852
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: of remembering was Kelly starts with K and I only

853
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: had a few babies. And so anyway, anyone needs to

854
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: remember that in the future, just think about Kelly only

855
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: had two babies. But anyway, that was also my way

856
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: of remembering if I was going to Slovakia or Slovenia

857
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: to give a talk, Slovakia has a K in it

858
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:31,280
Speaker 1: and Kelly's going.

859
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 4: I remember it with a rapid fire for our and

860
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 4: quality with K because I'm good at spelling.

861
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 3: I love it.

862
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: Okay, so you and our notes have a really great

863
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: explanation of whale parental care. Do you want to chat

864
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: about them as like ideal K specialists?

865
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely so.

866
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 4: Whales are, especially the largest whales. Blue whales are an

867
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 4: excellent example of K strategists, right like they fit into

868
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 4: the classical. They're big, they live a long time, they're intelligent,

869
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: and they have a very long gestation period of about

870
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 4: a year, and they only have an offspring every presidential

871
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 4: term essentially like every four years or so. So they

872
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 4: are very slow in terms of producing a lot of offspring,

873
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 4: but they pour a huge amount of resources into the offspring.

874
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 4: They produce about fifty gallons of milk per day.

875
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: That's incredible.

876
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's also really high quality milk. It's very very

877
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 4: fat dense.

878
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 2: Is it delicious?

879
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: You know?

880
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 4: I would love to try some hot fresh whale milk.

881
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 4: That sounds very good, especially because we know what their

882
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 4: diet is, Like a ton of krill that's got to

883
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 4: have a nice fishy aftertaste.

884
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 2: Wait, how big is a blue whale nipple? I mean,

885
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: could a human even actually like get it fresh from

886
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: the whale?

887
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 4: You know, I've actually never seen a blue whale nipple,

888
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:01,959
Speaker 4: so I don't know. I'm gonna assume it's pretty big.

889
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: If I google that, am I going to get on

890
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: some terrorists watch list? Right now? You know?

891
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 4: I did once google elephant breasts, and I'm sure I'm

892
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 4: on a list. Oh no, But I meant literally elephant

893
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 4: breast because I was curious about breastfeeding and elephants.

894
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 3: And I can't explain everything.

895
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 2: Since we're on the topic of Katie's weird history, what

896
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: is the most interesting animal whose milk you have had?

897
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 3: Oh? I mean, I think just goat milk.

898
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: I'm not very exciting. I haven't done anything too adventurous.

899
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 4: I wish I could say, like I've suckled on a

900
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 4: sicilian or something, but no, I really haven't.

901
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: Oh, goat milk. I guess human milk though.

902
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 2: Right, milk is pretty weird.

903
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: Human milk's pretty weird, but we all drink it as babies.

904
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: I lived in a small village in France where the

905
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 2: grocery store had pony milk available, Yes, little bottles of

906
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: pony milk.

907
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: Like from specifically ponies. Like, okay, why not?

908
00:45:56,360 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 2: I was.

909
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: Really it wasn't very good.

910
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: It was too horsy for me.

911
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

912
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 2: You know how a milk sort of reminds you of

913
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: the odor of an animal, like goats, so it tastes

914
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: like the way goats smells a little bit. Not a

915
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: fan of the way horses smell.

916
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 4: I feel that I definitely can only handle a certain

917
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 4: amount of goat cheese before I'm like, I feel like

918
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 4: I'm eating the smell of the.

919
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: Goat exactly, like I'm licking a sweaty gat or something.

920
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, it smells and tastes like hay to me, and

921
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,919
Speaker 1: I love it. But anyway, let's get back.

922
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 4: To blue whales all right, So blue whale milk probably

923
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 4: tastes like blue whale, and the calves actually gain hundreds

924
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:34,720
Speaker 4: of pounds of weigh every few days.

925
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 2: Incredible.

926
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 4: They grow at an incredible way. They go from being

927
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 4: about the sights of like a shipping container to like

928
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 4: nearly a football field, right, So it's wild. It's a

929
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 4: wild amount of growth. So this also highlights sort of

930
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 4: the interesting trade off between somatic growth, meaning growing yourself

931
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 4: and growing your offspring. Whales spend their first parts of

932
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 4: their lives just grow, growing themselves to enormous sizes by

933
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 4: drinking a huge amount of their mother's milk, and then

934
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 4: when they're old enough, they start to filter feed on krill.

935
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 4: They're balen whales. They have those bristle structures in their mouths.

936
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 4: They take in huge amounts of sea water and then

937
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 4: expel it all out, and then krill, which are hugely

938
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 4: inbundant of a huge source of biomass, get caught in

939
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 4: their bileen and then they can swallow that and just

940
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 4: they eat. They're like vacuums that are able to exploit

941
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 4: a massive amount of biomass in the ocean. It'd be

942
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 4: like a cow on land that's just giant and had

943
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 4: like a giant sort of like lawn mower mouth that

944
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 4: could go and like mow an entire field and like

945
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 4: a few hours.

946
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,359
Speaker 1: Why hasn't evolution come up with that yet?

947
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 3: It's coming.

948
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 4: Giant, terrifying cows are coming, I'm sure, and they'll be

949
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 4: shaped like crabs based on other patterns in nature.

950
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: But we just had an interview with the woman who

951
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 1: wrote the review paper and how grumpy she is about

952
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: how it's been interpreted. But anyway, crab episode coming soon.

953
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 4: I stand firmly behind my crab carsonization of cow's theory.

954
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: Excellent.

955
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 4: But yeah, so after this period of growing the self

956
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 4: to these enormous sizes, then they can enter into the

957
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 4: reproductive period and then spend a lot of resources developing

958
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: the offspring, taking a year to develop the embryo to

959
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 4: becoming the live born offspring, and then just feeding it

960
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 4: huge amounts. Basically, they inhabit this evolutionary niche where they

961
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 4: invest their resources into being really big, and then when

962
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 4: you give birth, your offspring has taken a whole year

963
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 4: to develop inside your massive body. So there's very few

964
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 4: predators who could actually target your offspring, and honestly, they

965
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 4: had very little in terms of competitors and predators until

966
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 4: humans figured out how to fashion a harpoon. And that

967
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 4: we liked whale juices for a lot of disgusting use.

968
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: Is that sounds like a title for a great book,

969
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: Whale Juices for Disgusting uses.

970
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 4: Whale Jesus for Disgusting uses a very highly unethical guide

971
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 4: to using whale Ambergriss.

972
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So we've talked about insects being amazing r strategists.

973
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 1: We've now talked about blue whales being amazing case strategists.

974
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: And now that you feel like maybe you've got this

975
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: strategy in your mind, I'm going to go ahead and

976
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,240
Speaker 1: tell you that this probably does not represent reality because

977
00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: it's more of a spectrum when you look into these things,

978
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: and it's, you know, not surprising that things don't fit

979
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: into little categories because probably the only thing in an

980
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: environment that matters isn't like how often a fire passes through.

981
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: And so usually when you find species, you find some

982
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: like combination of these different kinds of traits. So a

983
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: classic example is an elm tree. So an elm tree

984
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: is kind of like a case strategist in that it

985
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: lives for a really, really really long time and it

986
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 1: gets huge. And why it to get huge is because

987
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: it is competing with the other trees in the canopy.

988
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: And if you can't get to the top of the canopy,

989
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: you don't get light and you don't get to survive.

990
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: And Daniel, this sort of addresses your question earlier about like, well,

991
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you always just have a few offspring that

992
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 1: you invest a lot in? So for these seeds, they

993
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: make loads of seeds. I think they can make up

994
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,879
Speaker 1: to a million seeds in their lifetime. And these seeds

995
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: are tiny, and the only way any of those seeds

996
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: get to survive is if they happen to end up

997
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: in a spot on the floor where they get really lucky,

998
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: Like maybe a super old tree that's one hundred years

999
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: old has finally fallen over and died, and now there's

1000
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: a little bit of light coming through the canopy making

1001
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,959
Speaker 1: it to the forest floor, and your offspring just don't

1002
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: have any chance to survive unless they end up randomly

1003
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: in one of those spots.

1004
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 2: It's like waiting for a physics professor to retire and

1005
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 2: open up a professorship.

1006
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: Finally, right, or answer your emails.

1007
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's completely random, Yes.

1008
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: Completely random, and so like if you had made five

1009
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 1: of the greatest acorns in the warld Oh, thank.

1010
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 2: You, My acorns are wonderful.

1011
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, a lot of squirrel energy over here. I

1012
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: don't know why.

1013
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

1014
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to imagine what is it like to

1015
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 2: be a good elm parent, Like you know, you're really

1016
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 2: craft these acorns, or dold you just care deeply about them,

1017
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,759
Speaker 2: or you're like weirdly irrationally proud of your acorns. I

1018
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 2: don't know. I was trying to do it.

1019
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 1: And the promorphizing trees. I never could say that word

1020
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 1: without first stumbling and overthinking it. But also, if you

1021
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: make like giant seeds, they're gonna get eaten by squirrels,

1022
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,399
Speaker 1: and so just for a variety of reasons, the best

1023
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: strategy is to make lots of them every year and

1024
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: scatter them as far as you can and not care

1025
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: and not care. It seems like there's really no better

1026
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: strategy than that, and the environment is selecting for that.

1027
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 4: An animal equivalent to the elm tree are actually a sunfish.

1028
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 4: They're huge, huge fish, like the size of a kiddie pool,

1029
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 4: and they're those weird guys that are kind of like

1030
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 4: flat and they've got the big eyeballs and they're really funny.

1031
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: But you would think, like, okay, there huge so that

1032
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 4: they can have large offspring that like nobody messes with.

1033
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 4: But actually their offspring are teeny teeny tiny. They're only

1034
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 4: a couple millimeters big. They're nearly like planktonic, and they

1035
00:52:11,120 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 4: have huge amounts of them. The females can lay like

1036
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 4: millions of eggs in her lifetime, and so it's kind

1037
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 4: of like the elm situation where they're just doing like

1038
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 4: I'm just gonna scatter a bunch of them. It's a

1039
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 4: little less clear why they do this versus the elm right,

1040
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 4: because it's not the same situation where the elm seeds

1041
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 4: need to find that perfect location where they don't have

1042
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 4: to compete with other trees to get sunlight through the canopy.

1043
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 4: But in the ocean you have a lot of evolutionary

1044
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,799
Speaker 4: pressures where it's hard not to get eaten and the

1045
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 4: ocean and it also takes a lot of resources right

1046
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 4: to create a large offspring. So for these sunfish, even

1047
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,800
Speaker 4: though it seems like they're going towards the blue whale

1048
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 4: strategy of like, hey they're big, right, so maybe it's

1049
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 4: so that they can just invest a lot in one offspring.

1050
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 4: No complete opposite, just a bunch of tiny babies that

1051
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 4: get eaten up like little popcorn and then like some

1052
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 4: of them though, happen to keep growing and growing and

1053
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 4: growing until they're just enormous.

1054
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 2: So, Kelly, if we think that the R strategy in

1055
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 2: case strategy is a little too simplistic, how we like

1056
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 2: upgraded our model to understand this in terms of like

1057
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 2: more variables, and it's sort of a higher dimensional evolutionary space.

1058
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so now we talk about life history strategies, and

1059
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: the decisions that animals make are things like when do

1060
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: you start breeding, how many times in your life will

1061
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: you breed, how many offspring do you make each of

1062
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: those breeding attempts, and how much do you care for them?

1063
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: And evolution has happened upon a lot of different answers

1064
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: to all of those questions, and it depends on lots

1065
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: of stuff like how competitive the environment is, how much

1066
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: food is available, how many other individuals are in the population,

1067
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: how stable is your environment, et cetera, et cetera. There's

1068
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: a lot of different factors that sort of go into

1069
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: these decisions, and so the way we think about it

1070
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: right now involves a lot more variable and it's quite

1071
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: a bit more complicated.

1072
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's complicated.

1073
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 4: It's just like the Facebook message, you know, Like that's

1074
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 4: basically like all these mathematicians, all these evolutionary biologists trying

1075
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 4: to get it down to some nice, beautiful formulas, and

1076
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 4: the best we can come up with is it's complicated.

1077
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: In my mind, there's sort of two possible scenarios, or

1078
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 2: maybe a spectrum of them, one in which, like, it's

1079
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 2: complicated and it depends on lots of factors, but if

1080
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: you knew all those factors, you could understand it, and

1081
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 2: you know, everybody is responding to those factors in a

1082
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 2: way that makes sense to us. And the other is

1083
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,359
Speaker 2: that it's just kind of random, like does everything have

1084
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,959
Speaker 2: to have a reason, Like, you know, you might ask

1085
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 2: why are there so many different kind of eye colors

1086
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 2: in humans? Is there a reason why that is? Or

1087
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 2: just sort of like, hey, these are the group that

1088
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: survived and a lot of it is just random. How

1089
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 2: much of it does need to be explained. How much

1090
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,759
Speaker 2: of it can we just say, hey, this is sort

1091
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: of just what happened.

1092
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a great question. I mean, I think

1093
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: we are, over time having a better understan standing of

1094
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: what factors you need to think about ahead of time.

1095
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: If you were to predict, like if somebody plopped a

1096
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: brand new species in front of you, we could ask

1097
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: a certain set of questions and have a pretty good

1098
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,720
Speaker 1: guess for what that animal should do. And it depends

1099
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: a little bit on like evolutionary trajectory. If it's a mammal,

1100
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: then probably female's going to be the one who's doing

1101
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: a lot of investing. So you'd predict that the males

1102
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: would try to mate with as many females as they

1103
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: could to maximize numbers, and then the females are going

1104
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 1: to have to invest a lot more heavily in the

1105
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,279
Speaker 1: offscoing that they have, and so it is becoming more

1106
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,799
Speaker 1: of a predictive science. But it's taken a lot of work.

1107
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 4: Let's say you, Katie, evolution is really interesting because you

1108
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 4: always have an element of randomness, right, Genetic mutation is random,

1109
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 4: although geologists would disagree, right, an earthquake is quasi random,

1110
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 4: right when it comes to animals, Like an animal certainly

1111
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 4: can't predict when an earthquake happens or some like dramatic

1112
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 4: environmental change happens. You know, sort of like whether or

1113
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 4: not you're just in the right place at the wrong

1114
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 4: time or the wrong place at the right time. All

1115
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 4: of those things are these random things. But when you

1116
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 4: have a system over long, long, long periods of time,

1117
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,759
Speaker 4: that's when randomness starts to get shaped into something that

1118
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 4: seems more intentional, seems more like, oh, this feels like

1119
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 4: this is becoming more and more efficient. But the truth

1120
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 4: is that the species that we see today, we are

1121
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 4: just sort of lucky enough to have this glimpse of

1122
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 4: the earth at this period of time where we have

1123
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 4: all these species, and they are not like ideal optimized

1124
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 4: creatures in every sense, right, Like a lot of the

1125
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 4: evolutionary traits that they have, like some of them have

1126
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 4: been selected for, and some of them have been either

1127
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:45,839
Speaker 4: initially selected for and then evolution switched up on them, right,

1128
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 4: like where their environment switched up and the strategy has

1129
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 4: to switch. But they never got rid of it, right

1130
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 4: because it either wasn't harming them or they just never

1131
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,439
Speaker 4: lucked into the gene that helped them get rid of it. Right,

1132
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:02,600
Speaker 4: So evolution doesn't create perfectly optimized, streamlined animals, but it

1133
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 4: does create animals that, generally speaking, are good at survival.

1134
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,520
Speaker 4: And so there's like some potential randomness right where it's like,

1135
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 4: just happened to be.

1136
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 3: That this basically worked.

1137
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 4: It's like an old car that's like, yeah, it's got

1138
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 4: pretty bad mileage and the carburetor makes a weird noise,

1139
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,480
Speaker 4: but it's still going. And there are species like that

1140
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 4: where it's like it's not perfect, but it's still going.

1141
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 3: Some of it can be a little bit random and

1142
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 3: certainly not perfect.

1143
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I feel not perfectly suited to my environment much

1144
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 1: of the time. And on that note, Daniel, did you

1145
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: want to ask an alien related question? Or are you good?

1146
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, The answer to that is always yes.

1147
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: All right, we can pull back. Do you want to

1148
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: ask your alien question?

1149
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 3: Green is the answer, green, Miakati?

1150
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 2: My question is what color are alien nipples?

1151
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:57,720
Speaker 3: You know what?

1152
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 4: I've always imagined them as lavender, not funny.

1153
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 2: Maybe they also taste like lavender.

1154
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 4: Yuh hey, you know what, We're getting into some real

1155
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 4: strange territory here.

1156
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: Right.

1157
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 3: Thanks for being on the show, Katie, Yeah, absolutely, thanks

1158
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 3: for having me.

1159
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We

1160
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you, We really would.

1161
00:58:28,040 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: We want to know what questions you have about this

1162
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: Extraordinary Universe.

1163
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,840
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1164
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 1: future shows. If you contact us, we will get back

1165
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: to you.

1166
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1167
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 2: at questions at danieland Kelly dot org, or.

1168
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,240
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1169
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on all of those platforms.

1170
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,160
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1171
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,840
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