Speaker 1: Hey, that folks in this episode, is chivalry dead? If
Speaker 1: it's not, should it be? But if chivalry is dead,
Speaker 1: should we resurrect it right here, right now in this
Speaker 1: episode of Amy and TJ. And with that, welcome to
Speaker 1: this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I will start
Speaker 1: with the question we will get We're gonna deep dive
Speaker 1: into this. But generally speaking, if you're asked the question, Robock,
Speaker 1: is chivalry dead? What is your answer?
Speaker 2: I would say yes, by and large, yes, especially here
Speaker 2: in New York City. I know, having lived in the South,
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, and living up north, there are big
Speaker 2: differences in how men and women relate and act with
Speaker 2: and toward.
Speaker 3: One of them.
Speaker 1: Wait minute, So you're saying it's not dead.
Speaker 4: In the South, not as much.
Speaker 2: It's dying maybe with the younger generations, but it's not dead.
Speaker 3: Is it dead in New York City?
Speaker 1: An?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: That is a strong indictment of the men of New York. Y'all,
Speaker 1: hear what she's saying about you, That chivalry is dead
Speaker 1: in New York. Yes, I have said, I'm looking at
Speaker 1: your pha You're not I'm not playing. I'm not playing.
Speaker 2: No, I've lived here for more than twenty years and
Speaker 2: it's still shocking to me at how dead it is.
Speaker 1: Let's give some context here. When we're generally talking about chivalry,
Speaker 1: what are we talking about.
Speaker 3: We are talking about basic things, okay.
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking we want to make sure we're
Speaker 1: not talking about chivalry and taking care of a woman
Speaker 1: like a sugar daddy type. That ain't chivalry. We're talking
Speaker 1: about gestures that often that don't always have to be
Speaker 1: romantic gesture. You can be chivalrous to your mother or
Speaker 1: some stranger on the street.
Speaker 3: And also, let us preface it with this.
Speaker 2: I am of a certain generation and age where it's
Speaker 2: maybe it could go fifty to fifty. Not everyone appreciates chivalry.
Speaker 2: Some people are offended by it. I actually appreciate it.
Speaker 2: But we're talking about when a man opens a door
Speaker 2: for you, a car door, a restaurant door. You know,
Speaker 2: trying you've got bags, you're juggling things, you're trying to
Speaker 2: get into a Dwayne read someone opens the door for you.
Speaker 3: Someone who offers to pay for the meal.
Speaker 1: There's a big one.
Speaker 3: Yes, it is.
Speaker 2: Walks on the outside. So a man to be chivalrous
Speaker 2: will walk on the side of the street where the
Speaker 2: traffic is so as to to be basically a barrier
Speaker 2: for anything from splashing mud to a swerving car. Offers
Speaker 2: a woman his jacket if you're cold, May I offer
Speaker 2: you your jacket, my jacket for you. That's a big
Speaker 2: one when it's cold outside.
Speaker 3: Lets women get off and on the.
Speaker 2: Elevator first, or the subway first, or just into a
Speaker 2: room first, giving up your seat on the subway, a
Speaker 2: crowded bus, a crowded train, stuff correct carry her bags
Speaker 2: for her. So I've got these heavy shopping bags or
Speaker 2: a heavy offering to take that. Also when you're getting
Speaker 2: on a plane, offering to help put or get those
Speaker 2: heavy bags up in the overheart head compartment. To me,
Speaker 2: those are all like things that I would consider chivalry.
Speaker 1: Or are you saying, though you listed a bunch of
Speaker 1: things that sound like common sense, common courtesy, I should
Speaker 1: say you're telling me the men of New York, generally speaking,
Speaker 1: don't do those things.
Speaker 2: They are not common No, And in fact, I remember
Speaker 2: specifically juggling strollers, babies and biorns being pregnant, and the
Speaker 2: only people who did any of those things for me
Speaker 2: were other women.
Speaker 1: Okay, but is that a New York thing? To where
Speaker 1: we get conditioned here in New York too, And I
Speaker 1: will speak on this in a second. Men here are
Speaker 1: conditioned to woman doesn't want to be bothered. She can
Speaker 1: do her thing, I know, not to bother. She doesn't
Speaker 1: need my help, she doesn't want my help. So they're
Speaker 1: conditioned now to not do those things. Is that possible?
Speaker 3: That's entirely possible.
Speaker 2: But I would also say that I think it's just
Speaker 2: not valued as much here. I don't think it even
Speaker 2: would be received as well here.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, this is all coming out. We're talking about
Speaker 1: it now. You and I got into a conversation, a debate.
Speaker 1: I would even argue, we're talking about Trump's choice for
Speaker 1: Defense Secretary, Hexseth, who was a former Fox News host.
Speaker 1: A lot of controversy about him for a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of reasons, but one of the things that was talked
Speaker 1: about is in him saying that men or women should
Speaker 1: not serve in frontline combat positions alongside men. He had
Speaker 1: all reasons for this, but it got us talking a
Speaker 1: little more a little deeper about equality and this idea
Speaker 1: that you are treating women as a fairer or quote
Speaker 1: unquote weaker sex that needs to be protected. And this
Speaker 1: all kind of flowed into a conversation between us about
Speaker 1: what chivalry. It's nice, and it might be a nice gesture,
Speaker 1: but does it perpetuate an ongoing inequality between men and
Speaker 1: women and in women? Is it perpetuating a notion of
Speaker 1: gender norms and where we should be even though I
Speaker 1: think I'm doing a nice thing by opening the door.
Speaker 2: Yes, So this is a big question mark, and I
Speaker 2: think people and women have varying responses to that. And
Speaker 2: I think I came up where I was the only
Speaker 2: woman among my friend group in the nineties who were
Speaker 2: getting married. Who chose, and this is when I was
Speaker 2: living in the South, chose not to take my husband's
Speaker 2: last name. Why.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to lose part of who I was.
Speaker 1: I would you though, just because you lose a last name.
Speaker 2: Because I prided myself on being Amy Roboch and so
Speaker 2: I wanted to stay Amy Robick. And just because I
Speaker 2: went into partnership or into a marriage with someone else
Speaker 2: didn't mean that I had to assume someone else's last
Speaker 2: name or identity for us to be a partnership.
Speaker 3: So I felt strongly about that. Also, I also just.
Speaker 2: Felt like it was part of being someone's property. Back
Speaker 2: in the day, it was though women didn't have rights.
Speaker 2: Women couldn't vote, they couldn't own property, they didn't have
Speaker 2: a say in a lot of things. They couldn't enter
Speaker 2: into a contract. So I just felt like all of that,
Speaker 2: for all of those reasons, I didn't want to make
Speaker 2: it that deep. I just really from the time I
Speaker 2: was eleven years old, I remember thinking, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to change my name.
Speaker 3: Why would I change my name?
Speaker 2: And so that was maybe the big feminist gesture that
Speaker 2: I chose.
Speaker 3: To enact when I was in my early twenties.
Speaker 2: And when I did that, I also struggled because then
Speaker 2: I was told by people, Well, if you're going to
Speaker 2: take that track and you're going to not take your
Speaker 2: husband's last name, if you're going to be the breadwinner,
Speaker 2: if you're going to ask that your family move for
Speaker 2: your job, well then you can't also assume or ask
Speaker 2: or want a man to open a door for you.
Speaker 1: Well, some things here, because you talk about you taking
Speaker 1: somebody's last name and you being a breadwinner should not
Speaker 1: be connected. You could you could whether the breadwinner or
Speaker 1: not should not be a part of this conversation.
Speaker 2: Is it I agree with you, But I was told
Speaker 2: by many people and men included, that if I was
Speaker 2: going to take that track, that I couldn't then also
Speaker 2: have this expectation that somebody was going to take care
Speaker 2: of me in another gesture, in another way, that if
Speaker 2: I was going down that road, then I needed to
Speaker 2: go down that road by myself and take care of
Speaker 2: myself and have zero expectations that a man should do
Speaker 2: anything above and beyond for me that I could technically
Speaker 2: do it for myself.
Speaker 1: Again, we mud eat the waters way earlier than I
Speaker 1: thought we were going to here.
Speaker 2: I am telling you I wasn't. I was actually a
Speaker 2: little wounded by that. But I accepted it and said, Okay,
Speaker 2: what by the thought that I couldn't, that I couldn't
Speaker 2: be a strong, powerful, independent woman and at the same
Speaker 2: time appreciate like and want a man to also do
Speaker 2: some of those I think very beautiful or give me
Speaker 2: some of those beautiful gestures that I appreciate, And.
Speaker 4: That is where it would make me feel loved.
Speaker 1: But that is where people will say, you can't have
Speaker 1: it both ways. Okay, do you think you can can
Speaker 1: a strong, powerful woman who is pushing for equality, who
Speaker 1: is pushing to for that for us all to see
Speaker 1: women as absolute equals. Man. Woman, you can do it,
Speaker 1: I can do it. I don't need you to pay
Speaker 1: for my meal. I don't need you to open my door.
Speaker 1: I don't need your coat, don't I don't need anything.
Speaker 1: Can you not accept those gestures but at the same
Speaker 1: time be promoting strength, equality and capability of women.
Speaker 3: I believe you can.
Speaker 2: But it took me a while to get there because
Speaker 2: I felt like I was asking for too much, because
Speaker 2: I was told I was asking for too much, that
Speaker 2: I couldn't have it both ways.
Speaker 4: I try you asking for to door.
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like a stretch.
Speaker 3: I agree with you.
Speaker 2: I agree with you, but I think that you know,
Speaker 2: in a way, for some men, it might be threatening
Speaker 2: or frustrating, like, oh, oh, you're not going to stay home,
Speaker 2: You're not going to take a beta role.
Speaker 3: You're not. But ye, at the same time, you want
Speaker 3: me to do this for you and that.
Speaker 2: For you, And I just feel like I kind of
Speaker 2: assumed I shouldn't so, But I truly believe I not
Speaker 2: every woman. Probably a lot of women won't agree with me,
Speaker 2: but I do believe there are differences in genders for
Speaker 2: the most part, we do have things that biologically we
Speaker 2: are probably not in all cases, but in a lot
Speaker 2: of cases more predisposed to be good at. It doesn't
Speaker 2: take away from my ability to put my own bag up,
Speaker 2: or to carry my own bag, or to open my
Speaker 2: own door, to have a man do it for me.
Speaker 2: I consider that to be something beautiful. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I think it's a wonderful gesture that someone is there
Speaker 2: who is bigger and stronger than me in most instances,
Speaker 2: who's just saying, hey, let me get that for you.
Speaker 2: I don't take offense to that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Okay, you are the problem Robes, according to many women,
Speaker 1: because in wanting that and accepting that what you're doing
Speaker 1: are perpetuating the notion of benevolent sexism. Benevolent sexism as
Speaker 1: some of you may be familiar, We weren't. We had
Speaker 1: to do a little bit of a deeper dive. But
Speaker 1: this is the idea of benevolent sexism. Yes, you might
Speaker 1: have good intentions, Yes you may be well meaning, but
Speaker 1: what you are doing is reinforcing traditional gender roles and
Speaker 1: maintaining male dominance. Yes, Robes, you by wanting or appreciating
Speaker 1: or even yes, expecting that you are holding women down. Robes.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't expect it, I can say that, but
Speaker 3: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to jump on the part
Speaker 1: of course you're not holding women down.
Speaker 3: I thought that was the and I, well, yes, so
Speaker 3: here's the deal.
Speaker 2: I actually feel like it, maybe because I've lived enough
Speaker 2: life and I have had wonderful opportunities that other women
Speaker 2: who've paved the way have helped at least me get
Speaker 2: to where I've gotten in my life professionally, but I
Speaker 2: have nothing to prove like. I know I can do
Speaker 2: those things, but it doesn't mean that I don't appreciate
Speaker 2: someone else coming in and helping me. It makes I
Speaker 2: do feel loved. I do feel protected. Is it wrong
Speaker 2: for a woman to enjoy feeling protected? Is it wrong
Speaker 2: for a woman to enjoy feeling taken care of?
Speaker 3: Even though I can take care of myself and I
Speaker 3: have been taken care of myself.
Speaker 1: Hey, yes, different opinions on these things. But I asked
Speaker 1: the question of about how the question of how does
Speaker 1: a woman feel? How does everybody listening? How does it
Speaker 1: make you feel when a man, maybe he's a stranger,
Speaker 1: maybe it's somebody you're dating opens a door for you.
Speaker 1: I love it. Feel does it make you feel when
Speaker 1: you're on the first or second or whatever date and
Speaker 1: the guy pays? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 3: I appreciate it?
Speaker 1: Okay. How you feel when the guy walks on the
Speaker 1: outside the sidewalk that you're on? I love it, opens
Speaker 1: the car door, give you a jacket when he's cold.
Speaker 1: I love that when you're cold, Right, all of that,
Speaker 1: you love all of that. So on the other side
Speaker 1: of that, how do you feel when a man doesn't
Speaker 1: open the door? How do you feel when a man
Speaker 1: doesn't offer to pay for the meal? How do you
Speaker 1: feel when a guy doesn't pull out his umbrella and
Speaker 1: make sure you're under it when it's raining. How do
Speaker 1: you feel when a guy doesn't do those things? Do
Speaker 1: you look at him and you think what's wrong with you?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: I don't, especially I think after having, like I said,
Speaker 2: I lived in New York City, I think initially maybe
Speaker 2: I did feel that a little bit.
Speaker 1: You've gotten trained not to expect it.
Speaker 4: Yes, that's unfortunate, Yes I have.
Speaker 2: And you look, my dad did all of those things,
Speaker 2: so it might be different with your experience growing up.
Speaker 2: But my dad did those things for me and I
Speaker 2: appreciated it. And he also taught me how to balance
Speaker 2: my own checkbook. He also taught me how to pay
Speaker 2: my own taxes. He, you know, he and my mom
Speaker 2: you know, was a part of those conversations as well.
Speaker 2: But so I do think that I think both things
Speaker 2: can exist, and it doesn't mean anything negative. I think
Speaker 2: it's how we view it and how we look at it.
Speaker 2: And the least of my problems is a man opening
Speaker 2: the door for me. That is the least of my
Speaker 2: problems as a woman, and it probably takes away if
Speaker 2: you and so I find it interesting. I get it
Speaker 2: that women complain about that are offended by that, but
Speaker 2: I just don't think that men, in doing so are saying, Hey,
Speaker 2: you weak ass woman who can't open her own door,
Speaker 2: let me do this for you. I just really think
Speaker 2: it's a matter of being polite, a matter of being
Speaker 2: a gentleman. I appreciate a gentleman, and I don't understand
Speaker 2: why we can't appreciate those gestures, those moments of chivalry
Speaker 2: and at the same time have that not take away
Speaker 2: from our own power. I don't need you to do it,
Speaker 2: and I wouldn't expect you to do it, but I
Speaker 2: really like it.
Speaker 4: When you do.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, that expectation is always a key here,
Speaker 1: but I have obviously, I'm born raised in the South,
Speaker 1: my mother father, both of them from the Delta, Arkansas.
Speaker 1: From the moment, and we talked about this, from the
Speaker 1: moment I was physically able, my mother did not open
Speaker 1: another door for herself. Right. She would walk up to
Speaker 1: a store, the front door of a store, and just
Speaker 1: stand there and look at me. You're forgetting something. I
Speaker 1: was three years old when I was physically able to
Speaker 1: open a door. I was trained, and all of my
Speaker 1: thinking now I was thinking about stories of my life.
Speaker 1: All of my training as a gentleman or doing those
Speaker 1: chivalrous things came from my mother. No offense, Pops. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying you didn't teach me anything. But my mom
Speaker 1: was on it and trained me from birth to do
Speaker 1: these things. And so I get Yes, it happened in
Speaker 1: New York. I remember traveling a line from Atlanta to
Speaker 1: New York and run into people in the airport and
Speaker 1: I would say, I would try to hold a woman's
Speaker 1: bag open the door. God forbid, you say yes, ma'am, no, ma'am.
Speaker 1: But I have absolutely been not quite yelled at, but
Speaker 1: gotten onto by women like how dare you? I got
Speaker 1: my door? I don't need you for this, I don't
Speaker 1: need you for that. And it was I was really
Speaker 1: taken aback by that idea of doing these aren't women.
Speaker 1: There's just a random lady in the airport. This is
Speaker 1: not somebody I'm trying to take out on the date.
Speaker 1: I'm not out, but I was. I was taken aback.
Speaker 1: So to your point of you've gotten accustomed to that,
Speaker 1: because now I've gotten accustomed to already getting out of
Speaker 1: the training that my mama gave me. Right.
Speaker 2: But the good news is we're perfect together on this
Speaker 2: because you were trained to do it, and I am
Speaker 2: so appreciative of you doing it because it's been lacking
Speaker 2: for two decades.
Speaker 3: This is one of the areas that we really really
Speaker 3: are vibing.
Speaker 1: I really don't know any better, So I am. I
Speaker 1: am fascinated by this conversation, which is going to continue.
Speaker 1: So for a lot of us, we don't even know
Speaker 1: where this comes from. This idea of women and children first, right,
Speaker 1: this idea that for some reason we're supposed to make
Speaker 1: sure women go first, or they are the first to
Speaker 1: get off the ship. But we gotta save the women first.
Speaker 1: This is an idea that experts say, or at least
Speaker 1: the historian say, goes back to the eighteen hundreds on
Speaker 1: a particular ship. We're gonna get into the details of
Speaker 1: where this comes from in the first place. Stick with
Speaker 1: us here, folks, we're going to be right back here
Speaker 1: on Amy and TJ. All right, we continue here on
Speaker 1: Amy and TJ having a discussion about benevolent sexism. Yes, fellas,
Speaker 1: you think you're doing a nice thing and a sweet
Speaker 1: gesture by opening the door, being chivalrous, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people think that's just perpetuating old gender norms and
Speaker 1: ideas that women are the fairer or weaker sex. So
Speaker 1: even though you're trying to do a nice thing, it
Speaker 1: ultimately is keeping women back. I with you, Well, we've
Speaker 1: been friends for ten years, but before we were ever
Speaker 1: in a relationship, you and I went out alive or
Speaker 1: drinks or have a go, have a lunch or something
Speaker 1: here and there. There is not a single point in
Speaker 1: our relationship, including now that I've known you, not in
Speaker 1: friendship relationship. That's not a single point that you didn't
Speaker 1: make more money than me, and at some points it
Speaker 1: was significantly more money than me. Yet every time we
Speaker 1: went out, who was picking up the bill?
Speaker 3: You were?
Speaker 2: But I also offered and a couple of times tried
Speaker 2: to venmo you and that didn't go well, We're going
Speaker 2: to go well, And you would always just say it
Speaker 2: all evens out in the end, and look, I actually
Speaker 2: I don't think anybody likes to feel like they owe
Speaker 2: somebody something. But we had enough of a friendship where
Speaker 2: I guess eventually now maybe it has even out, but I.
Speaker 4: Some it hasn't.
Speaker 3: But I'm okay with that.
Speaker 1: No, we ahead shot.
Speaker 2: But I think some some women don't appreciate the feeling
Speaker 2: that somehow now they owe something, and that's something that
Speaker 2: we put on ourselves. And so I would just ask,
Speaker 2: you know, I would never demonize somebody who is willing
Speaker 2: to pay.
Speaker 3: Especially when there's zero expects.
Speaker 2: Now, if there's an expectation attached to paying for it,
Speaker 2: that is a whole other issue. But that was never
Speaker 2: the case. You're the only man I know in my
Speaker 2: life that I can recall who has always consistently insisted
Speaker 2: on paying no matter what.
Speaker 1: You can. You can go ask any friend of mine,
Speaker 1: amy female friend of mine. This has been the case
Speaker 1: forever we go out, and I just it's an automatic.
Speaker 1: The guy pays. Now, a lot of people hear that, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's ridiculous if your friends, and that's fine. But in
Speaker 1: my mind and my mindset, the way I've always been trained,
Speaker 1: that's what should happen. But these days, how is that
Speaker 1: view these days for people when they go out, when
Speaker 1: they first date, second date, third date? Who if the
Speaker 1: guy pays, is it an automatic? Does the woman expect it?
Speaker 1: What happens now? I'm looking at the younger folks that
Speaker 1: have in our own I actually don't know what the
Speaker 1: expectation is.
Speaker 2: Celia and Andy are here, and I can only base
Speaker 2: this off of some of the dating shows I've been watching.
Speaker 2: And I told you I was really shocked because I'm
Speaker 2: watching the new Love is Blind here in the US,
Speaker 2: and this one woman as she's in the pods talking
Speaker 2: to potential suitors or potential husbands, making it very clear
Speaker 2: that she wants to be taken care of, and that
Speaker 2: she doesn't want it to be fifty to fifty, and
Speaker 2: that she likes a masculine male and she wants to
Speaker 2: be and everyone was shocked, like jaw dropping, like they
Speaker 2: were like, this does not happen.
Speaker 3: It's She's that was different. But I think she is
Speaker 3: an outlier.
Speaker 2: But Celia, I'll ask you, like, what do you think
Speaker 2: about who pays for what on dates?
Speaker 5: I think it definitely depends on the longevity of the relationship.
Speaker 5: I think if it's a first date, you kind of
Speaker 5: reach for your like you reach in your purse like
Speaker 5: you're about to pay, Like you know, I'm not grabbing anything.
Speaker 3: But you're hoping that he's gonna pay.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm just pretending like I'm going to but I'm not.
Speaker 1: For everybody listening, Solia, we are in line. This is
Speaker 1: exactly the way a date should go. Really, we don't
Speaker 1: expect you to pay. Just that little gesture that you're
Speaker 1: making an effort, just a little lunge towards your purse
Speaker 1: a little bit, just a little bit, and we look
Speaker 1: at that and go, Okay, she's she's game. She's a
Speaker 1: good one. I got I got a good one here.
Speaker 1: We have no problem paying that little thing. That's exactly
Speaker 1: how a date should go.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you gotta pretend exactly it.
Speaker 3: It's about the expectations.
Speaker 2: If you think that the girl is expecting you to pay,
Speaker 2: you feel completely differently about paying than just saying this
Speaker 2: is what I want to do, versus this is what
Speaker 2: she expects me.
Speaker 1: See, this is me. I think every woman should expect
Speaker 1: me to pay. But I don't need her to sit
Speaker 1: there with her arms folded when the check comes. Right,
Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. I don't need her to give
Speaker 1: an attitude of you're gonna get that way. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's okay, we're told, But still I am. I feel
Speaker 1: like I am perpetuating this negative idea of gender roles.
Speaker 1: At least I'm told that, right. I don't feel that necessarily,
Speaker 1: But everything I hear and read and all, my goodness
Speaker 1: is different. Times has got to be this way. So
Speaker 1: now I'm a little gun shy on some of these things.
Speaker 3: I've watched you get scolded.
Speaker 2: I've watched you get scolded by women who are upset
Speaker 2: that you refer to them as ma'am, that you are
Speaker 2: using polite terminology with the door. And I will admit
Speaker 2: we talked about when we were friends. I was still
Speaker 2: in that mindset because I was I was.
Speaker 3: Told I can't have it all. I can't have it
Speaker 3: both ways.
Speaker 2: So you would see me struggling with the heavy bag
Speaker 2: to go put up in the overhead compartment when we
Speaker 2: were traveling for work, and you'd say, let me get
Speaker 2: that robes and I'd say, no, no, no, no, I've
Speaker 2: got it.
Speaker 1: Okay, go back. This is before we traveled together and
Speaker 1: we were working, right, Yes, we traveled together a lot
Speaker 1: when we were working. Yes, And we get on the plane,
Speaker 1: we're boarding together, and what do you always did? We
Speaker 1: usually sit next to each other, sit together, but gotta
Speaker 1: put that bag in the overhead, that heavy bag in
Speaker 1: the overhead.
Speaker 2: Yes, and so I will get on my tippy toes,
Speaker 2: I will grunt, I will push, I will do what
Speaker 2: it takes to like somehow ling it up there. And
Speaker 2: so now TJ looks at me, he goes, who's a
Speaker 2: big girl?
Speaker 4: No, yeah, understand, who's a big girl?
Speaker 3: In front of everybody?
Speaker 1: I think I gave you two go's at it on
Speaker 1: a flight and you said, no, I got I got
Speaker 1: I got it. I'm seeing you struggle. I'm standing literally
Speaker 1: right next to you. You don't want me to help
Speaker 1: you with your bag? Okay? So now here we are,
Speaker 1: two years into our relationship. We fly together all the time.
Speaker 1: Now I refuse to help you put your bag in
Speaker 1: the overhead. And when we travel, we used okay, we
Speaker 1: bored first. Everybody's around kind of a little intimate, little
Speaker 1: area in the front, and when you're doing it, I
Speaker 1: don't yell this out, but like you said, I make
Speaker 1: sure everybody can hear. Oh, who's a big who's a
Speaker 1: big Amy? Look at look at Amy? Who's that big girl?
Speaker 1: She got our bag?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Good job? And this goes on. So she starts laughing,
Speaker 1: and now she's struggling with the bag even more. She's waiting,
Speaker 1: and I keep it going to you go almost you
Speaker 1: almost got who's a big girl?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 1: I think Actually we have even had a cabin of
Speaker 1: folks clap after you do it because I was egging
Speaker 1: them on.
Speaker 2: I believe a couple another man has actually come in
Speaker 2: and helped because struggling.
Speaker 1: I didn't feel any kind of way about it. Knock
Speaker 1: yourself out, dude, But.
Speaker 2: To that point, I actually reflected about why did I resist.
Speaker 2: I've even s I seen my twenty one year old
Speaker 2: daughter resist having someone hold a bag for her when
Speaker 2: she's got a heavy bag. She's five to two, she's
Speaker 2: a little gal. And it's pride and it's somehow, Well,
Speaker 2: if I let someone help me, I'm acknowledging I'm weaker.
Speaker 2: And here's the deal. I've gotten to point out, babe,
Speaker 2: where I am and would be.
Speaker 4: But I get it.
Speaker 3: If you're still harboring.
Speaker 2: Any ill, well, totally fine, and like laughing at myself
Speaker 2: for somehow thinking I'm proving something to the world or
Speaker 2: to myself that I'm strong, and that is actually silly.
Speaker 2: And so I think when we all start feeling offended
Speaker 2: or somehow saying when you're doing something kind that it's offensive,
Speaker 2: or when you're doing something to be helpful that I'm
Speaker 2: now annoyed, that is on me as the woman. Because
Speaker 2: if I actually really am confident in who I am
Speaker 2: and what I'm capable of and what I've accomplished in
Speaker 2: my life and what I've yet to accomplish, you can
Speaker 2: just ex accept a gesture as kind and helpful and
Speaker 2: not take it personally as some sort of slight against
Speaker 2: my physical ability.
Speaker 1: But do you understand why some women might yes, wait,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, you think I need help? Do you
Speaker 1: see why I was like that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I had that mindset on a few certain
Speaker 2: random things including putting my bag in the overhead and
Speaker 2: I and now, if I really do sit back and
Speaker 2: am honest with myself, that's my problem that somehow that's
Speaker 2: something that I am assigning to myself that no one
Speaker 2: is actually intending. I think so many times this is
Speaker 2: about misunderstanding and what the intentions are. And if you
Speaker 2: can just accept a gift, it's hard to accept help.
Speaker 2: It is hard to accept help, but sometimes I do
Speaker 2: need it. I am physically inferior to you, TJ. I
Speaker 2: can say that, and it's okay because that's just the
Speaker 2: way it is emotionally.
Speaker 1: I am just kidding.
Speaker 2: It depends on the subject, and it depends on how
Speaker 2: much sleep we've each got. And I knew you were,
Speaker 2: but I was actually trying to give an honest answer.
Speaker 2: But I think sometimes and not Look, these are generalizations.
Speaker 2: Not all women in man are but but generally speaking, yes,
Speaker 2: women are physically inferior APPS And I tell my daughters
Speaker 2: this when they're walking the streets of New York City.
Speaker 2: Don't get this bravado about yourself that you're just as
Speaker 2: strong as men when it comes to personal safety and
Speaker 2: physical safety. Acknowledging that you're not is actually a part
Speaker 2: of being intelligent and knowing where your where your strengths are,
Speaker 2: and also acknowledging where your weaknesses are. It doesn't make
Speaker 2: you any less of a human. It's just acknowledging what is.
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes are so afraid to do that
Speaker 2: as women.
Speaker 1: And I know what you meant, and and it sounds bad.
Speaker 1: I know what you mean by physically inferior. I don't
Speaker 1: want anybody to jump on that and.
Speaker 4: Try to drink.
Speaker 1: But it's it's it's it's provable, it's it's fat, it's
Speaker 1: physiologically okay, a fact that just men generally are built taller, stronger.
Speaker 1: It's just that's just a fact. So that's what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Generally speaking, Obviously there are plenty of women out there
Speaker 1: with my ass and Andy's ass over it. That's not
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. But generally speaking to your point
Speaker 1: of there are times you don't want your daughters to
Speaker 1: be traveling in certain places you I've heard you say this,
Speaker 1: Ye are there going to be guys with you? Yes,
Speaker 1: you have some dudes with you. Are you traveling to
Speaker 1: whatever country?
Speaker 2: Both of my daughters initially got offended, and I said
Speaker 2: to them this is a problem if you can't acknowledge
Speaker 2: where you are in the world and the fact that
Speaker 2: sometimes it is helpful for your physical safety to be
Speaker 2: with men and not just women, and certainly not by yourself,
Speaker 2: whereas if a man was traveling by himself my brother,
Speaker 2: I would be far less concerned of what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: like my mom.
Speaker 3: My mom was, and my dad were way.
Speaker 2: More concerned with me walking back from a party by
Speaker 2: myself on campus versus my brother. And I think sometimes
Speaker 2: we get so caught up in equality that we aren't
Speaker 2: acknowledged things that actually could make a difference in your
Speaker 2: personal safement.
Speaker 1: I'm laughing at the idea of my parents at some
Speaker 1: point saying to me, when I'm walking somewhere or traveling,
Speaker 1: you got some other guys with you. Obviously they do.
Speaker 2: So we like there are things that we just need
Speaker 2: to acknowledge, and I think it's okay. And I even
Speaker 2: had to get into my own headspace as we were
Speaker 2: talking about this as to why I have acted certain ways,
Speaker 2: and it's all something that I think us women feel
Speaker 2: like we have to prove something, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of times if we just acknowledge what is and
Speaker 2: accept what is, and also just feel good and strong
Speaker 2: about who we are and what we're capable of. It
Speaker 2: doesn't take away from my strength to let you hold
Speaker 2: it back for me, or to to to say sure, babe,
Speaker 2: that would actually be wonderful, Like can you lean into
Speaker 2: that and still be a feminist?
Speaker 3: I believe?
Speaker 1: So let me ask this, what should every guy do
Speaker 1: and what should every woman expect? What I'm talking about
Speaker 1: the absolute bottom basement base that every woman should expect
Speaker 1: from a guy, and that the guy should absolutely do.
Speaker 1: And I go back to holding open a door that
Speaker 1: seems I mean, it doesn't matter if it's the person
Speaker 1: you're dating, it doesn't matter if it's your mama, it's
Speaker 1: a stranger on the street, if a woman is walking,
Speaker 1: I don't know any other option but to open the door. And,
Speaker 1: by the way, fellas, if the door swings open towards you,
Speaker 1: then you hold the door open and she goes first.
Speaker 1: If the door swings out, you walk through first and
Speaker 1: hold the door and let her exit. That's just some
Speaker 1: one on one for the fellas out there. That's the
Speaker 1: way it should go. But is that the bottom line? Basic?
Speaker 1: Can we all agree on something that a woman should expect?
Speaker 1: From a guy, and a guy should absolutely be doing
Speaker 1: no matter what.
Speaker 2: The only thing I could say that's absolute is respect,
Speaker 2: and that it's just to respect where that person is.
Speaker 2: And it might not be some blanket thing where all women,
Speaker 2: you know, expect it, but we all can expect respect
Speaker 2: so wherever we are, whatever we feel, and maybe not
Speaker 2: get personally offended if a woman says thank you, I'd
Speaker 2: rather open my own door by all means, you know.
Speaker 3: And I just think if we can just respect where
Speaker 3: we all are.
Speaker 2: But also I just think it's important as a woman
Speaker 2: to ask yourself why you feel the way you feel
Speaker 2: and way and understand maybe why a man would feel
Speaker 2: the way he feels.
Speaker 1: And that both are okay, Yeah.
Speaker 3: It is okay, I think.
Speaker 1: So this goes back to and again I'll say we're
Speaker 1: going to mention this, but the idea of women and
Speaker 1: children first. This idea obviously it's understandable with children, right,
Speaker 1: they can't oftentimes protect themselves. This goes back to a
Speaker 1: ship that went down in eighteen fifty two off the
Speaker 1: coast of South Africa, the HMS Birkenhead. The HMS Birkenhead
Speaker 1: where at the time the reports are that the captain
Speaker 1: at the time saw all the men scrambling and filling up,
Speaker 1: and they were going to essentially take up all the
Speaker 1: spots on the for the boats, for the rescue boats
Speaker 1: that are attached, for the life rafts, and they made
Speaker 1: a decision, no, we are going to make sure there
Speaker 1: are spots for the women and the children first. That
Speaker 1: continued obviously with the Titanic.
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say this Titanic it
Speaker 2: was it predates, it predates.
Speaker 1: So but this was the idea that kind of got rolling.
Speaker 1: To this day, we still think women and children first.
Speaker 1: We still think women and children. And why do we
Speaker 1: think that, because these are the folks that need to
Speaker 1: be protected first in society. This came up again with
Speaker 1: the conflict in Gaza, where so many hostages were there
Speaker 1: women and children arguing should be released. Well, that woman
Speaker 1: there is healthier than this eighty year old guy, right,
Speaker 1: So it doesn't always work that way. That might be
Speaker 1: an eighty year old man I need to help with
Speaker 1: his bag on the airplane sometimes. So it's just it's
Speaker 1: not a one size fits all sometimes. So these debates
Speaker 1: happening now with Hegseth with the Defense Department. So it
Speaker 1: came up and you and I had I think we
Speaker 1: lost like fifteen minutes of work time doing our morning
Speaker 1: run podcast because we stopped and we got into a
Speaker 1: back and forth about this. It's just interesting to talk about,
Speaker 1: and certainly with the way I've been trained the way
Speaker 1: you've been trained, essentially by your dad, I've seen him
Speaker 1: do all of this with your mom constantly.
Speaker 3: Just he's very chivalrous with my mom.
Speaker 2: And I saw that as an example my whole life,
Speaker 2: and so to me it represented love. It didn't represent
Speaker 2: being put down or being marginalized or being considered less
Speaker 2: than it was about love. And so for me, it
Speaker 2: was about love and respect. And that might be the
Speaker 2: reason why that's the lens I view it with. But
Speaker 2: I got confused when I took on a different role
Speaker 2: in my life that I didn't see other women around
Speaker 2: me take on, which was, you know, to be the breadwinner,
Speaker 2: to be the person moving the family, to be the
Speaker 2: person who kept her last name. So I felt like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: then I guess I can't expect or want even once
Speaker 2: you know, those other things to happen. I felt like
Speaker 2: I had to choose between the two, and I think
Speaker 2: now I'm at a place in my life, especially with
Speaker 2: you in my life, and knowing how chivalrous you are
Speaker 2: naturally or you were trained to be from a young age.
Speaker 2: I've actually I had a conversation with my mom about
Speaker 2: it because I think I used to be more like
Speaker 2: my daughter's like, I can do it all.
Speaker 3: I don't need a man.
Speaker 2: Of course, Fine, that's great, But what's wrong with enjoying
Speaker 2: having someone show you a little bit of love?
Speaker 1: And that's all it is. It's it really is love.
Speaker 1: And there are some things and I think getting up
Speaker 1: from the table when a woman gets up from the
Speaker 1: table is one thing. I don't see a lot. Actually
Speaker 1: I don't see any other guy in life do that, but.
Speaker 3: It impressed the hell out of me when I saw
Speaker 3: you do it.
Speaker 2: I was like, Wow, this guy is respect It felt
Speaker 2: like respect.
Speaker 3: It's not it wasn't offensive, it was respectful.
Speaker 1: I've done that before in my life. I've stood up
Speaker 1: you at a restaurant. You stand up when a woman
Speaker 1: leaves a table. Doesn't have to be your woman, just
Speaker 1: any woman leaves a table, And I say, your woman,
Speaker 1: by not this, she's a possession.
Speaker 4: Okay, given, where's this conversation is gone?
Speaker 1: I don't need to make that mistake. Andy, can we
Speaker 1: edit that out?
Speaker 5: Please?
Speaker 4: Take no, no, no, we know what you mean.
Speaker 1: But any woman gets up from the table, and this
Speaker 1: is one that Chuck for the past twenty years almost
Speaker 1: you know, I've been out with Chuck plenty times. He
Speaker 1: I have been ripped by him for years because no
Speaker 1: other guy ever stands up. So if I stand up
Speaker 1: when a woman leaves the table and no other guy does,
Speaker 1: it makes the other guys look bad. So I have
Speaker 1: been getting ripped for that for a long time. The
Speaker 1: thing on the other side of the on the sidewalk,
Speaker 1: that's an automatic I think sometimes with you, you and
Speaker 1: I have almost tripped over each other because you're trying
Speaker 1: to figure out where you're going because I'm just we're
Speaker 1: doing a little ballet. I'm trying to get to the
Speaker 1: other side of you, and we switched.
Speaker 3: Side of the street.
Speaker 2: I have to switch the side up on with you,
Speaker 2: Witch purses because we're holding hands.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, it's a little bit of a dance that happens.
Speaker 3: But I do appreciate the gesture.
Speaker 1: The car door is a big one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's been That's been a huge change in my life,
Speaker 2: and I like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, guys, even if you are the one driving, you
Speaker 1: still go to the passenger side and you her in first.
Speaker 3: It makes me feel loved.
Speaker 2: It's just an autumn because I'm actually it's funny because
Speaker 2: I feel embarrassed saying it, because I again, I've been
Speaker 2: conditioned for so long to not want that, and I
Speaker 2: like it.
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna admit it. I love it, and I
Speaker 3: want some more of it.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know any other way to be. And
Speaker 1: I can't remember the young lady's name that works the
Speaker 1: front of your building. I can't remember her name, but
Speaker 1: I'm saying I have at that door. I have been
Speaker 1: in standoffs with women at that door before because they
Speaker 1: were trying to tell me to come out. I said, nope,
Speaker 1: you come on. Hey, No, no, no, you come on. Nope,
Speaker 1: ma'am you first. And then you know what I end with.
Speaker 1: I say, nope, my mama wouldn't have it any other way.
Speaker 1: And when I say.
Speaker 4: That, okay, yeah, they get it.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna win this guy over. But it is
Speaker 1: is just training. Mama thinks it's not anything I could
Speaker 1: take credit for. It's just it's just muscle memory for me.
Speaker 3: I guess I should thank your mama. Well, thank you,
Speaker 3: thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm a home So this is an interesting This is
Speaker 1: the last question I want to ask you. Does chivalry
Speaker 1: have to go away in order for us to eventually
Speaker 1: get to full gender quality.
Speaker 3: I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I don't believe so, because I think there are always
Speaker 2: going to be differences between the sexes, whether we like
Speaker 2: to admit them or not. And I think we can
Speaker 2: compliment one another. We don't have to be stereotypical and
Speaker 2: fingerpoint and make it.
Speaker 3: A negative thing. Can be a positive thing.
Speaker 2: You know. And I think we can help each other
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. And I think that it
Speaker 2: doesn't keep any one of us down by accepting love,
Speaker 2: accepting respect, accepting help. And I think the two can
Speaker 2: coexist if we can all get in the right headspace.
Speaker 1: Bumby lunch when we get out of here.
Speaker 3: Sure, not a problem at all.
Speaker 1: All right, folks, We appreciate you listening. As always. You
Speaker 1: can find us on official Instagram page at Amy and
Speaker 1: TJ Podcast. You can find us on our personal pages
Speaker 1: on Instagram as well. And yes, we'd appreciate you chiming
Speaker 1: in on this one respectfully.
Speaker 2: In the spirit of love and respect, yes, we'd love
Speaker 2: to hear your two cents all right.
Speaker 1: We also appreciate you listening, as always was a you.
Speaker 1: Next Game,